KAREN OUSEY ( world champion ) Devon u.k.m.t.a ENGLAND
LUCIA RJEIKER "" "" "" "" HOLLAND
JUSSY LOWE "" "" "" "" "" BOLTON U.K.M.T.A ENGLAND
LISA HOWARTH "" "" "" "" LEEDS ENGLAND
MARY HART "" "" "" "" SALE / ALTRICHAM ENGLAND
ILLONKA ELMONT "" "" "" AMSTERDAM HOLLAND

Best `6` i can think of for now ! will think about the other `4`
and these are in no order of preference ! cheers sandy man holt u.k.m.t.a
www.thaiboxing.co.uk

My name is Dan, and i am going to be creating a webpage, affiliated with WBAN (Women's Boxing Archive Network, (Sue Fox's site)to showcase exclusively, women kickboxers women's Muay Thai, and NHB fighting. I am interested in anyone's (and everyone's)opinion on any of the following topics:

1.Pound for pound, world wide, all styles included, who are the best ten women kickboxers, and nhb fighters currently active. Tell me who and why

2. Does anyone have info records, etc, on any (or all) of the following Australian women: Amanda Graver, Holly Fernelly, Laura Skinner, Melody Blackwell (spelling?)Katherine Maciver (spelling?) Rebecca (The Wrecker) Russell, Melita Carnavas (is she still active?)

3. Anybody has bio info, pics (usable) on any of those mentioned-OR others I should know about. please e-mail me. It would be Much appreciated,

Dan Cucich e-mail: cucich@mindspring.com
regular Mail: 4530 p'tree dunwoody Rd Atlanta, Ga USA 30342

PS: Congrats on you first fight Toots!!

Lucia Riker & Kathy Long

hi Dan as above world champions "all" active except LUCIER RJEIKER ! and its CATEREINE Maciver she was one of my fighters from my / our Bolton-Thai-Boxing-Club and sitnarong camp u.k. But is now living with her Boyfreind and trainer Brett Harrold a champion too @ lightheavyweight ! see Catherines a/x post for "vuw fight night aug: 25th: " and her e-mail add: etc; she is from Christchurch NEWZEALAND good luck ! please mention to her i mentioned about her and Brett etc: thanks ! and please use any of the U.K girls above ! as they are all current world champions ! thanks sandy man holt u.k.m.t.a
www.thaiboxing.co.uk

yep former top champions ! LISA HOWARTH master toddys manchester England
ANNE QUINLAN same as lisa camp
and yep KATHY LONG U.S.A. ta sandy man holt u.k.m.t.a
www.thaiboxing .co.uk
p.s. thats "9" im up to !!!!!!!

What a topic to start!

Top New Zealand fighters at present would have to include
Julie Wood and Ngapera Perata.

A future star that you guys should look out for is Lisa Stecki. Trust me this girl is good.


Sandman † † † †

=thanks. Yes, I agree . Long, Rijker, Howarth, and Quinlan should be in the
"hall of fame". Probably Bridgett Riley, Ella Yee, Gracie Casillas, Cheryl Wheeler, and Ramona Gatto, Kyoko Kamikaze would be candidates also? Ya think?
May just have to add such a page to the site. too bad none
of the aforementioned are currently active.
There may be some hope for Howarth to return to action. Rijker will either box or do movies...which seems to be her goal now...she looked really foxy doing color commentary on thunderbox...Long will return as a boxer; if she returns at all. But, I doubt it. Her fight with Howarth was a classic. (Battle at Pickett's Locke) Lisa won a close decision.
Did you say her name is "Camp"?

much obliged,

Dan

PS: send me a pic and fight records on your fghters. Vicky Roberts Jussy Lowe, et al..btw, beating Shibata inn Californiathat was impressive indeed. Especially after traveling 30 hours nonstop. Shibata is a tough little cookie

Sawtanang #1 for sure. :P

see in your first list sandy, did you mean lisa smith (nae haughton), where you have written lisa howarth, leeds??




DAN, cheers :-)
My fight was pants, cause i lost, but i enjoyed it anyway, and may have a few more soon :-).
how things going at your end of the world? Got the site up and running yet? It is SO much hard work, in it!!

drop me an e-mail,
Toots

Vanessa Bellegarde, (not sure if that is the correct spelling) used to be an excellent fighter. Haven't heard much from year in a while, don't think she competes anymore?

DAN hi cheers ! please e-mail me direct with your "Q"'s etc: ?? and sorry LISA HOWARTH was from master toddys -( camp ) = school,gym, club ! etc:
yep "toots" i mean LISA HOUGHTON leeds u.k. ! sorry ! ta sandy man holt u.k.m.t.a
www.thaiboxing.co.uk
p.s. "TOOTS" wanna laufgh larf ? laugh ? please go to "king of san da pics" check him out ??? and you tell me has he lost it ?? mr:dross ? ( shame he doesnt know what in English language dross means ? i havent the heart to tell him "YET" !!!!!!!!! hahaha ! come on gal get on there ! need you !!!! and your wonderfull WIT and muay-thai "prowess" he he ! and his other posts ! i think hes after a global san-shou takeover bid ! hahaha
( sorry DAN using this post / topic to tell "toots"and co: about a "plonker on A/X ! sorry ! )

HOW ABOUT KIM MESSER?WAS KAMIKAZI GOOD EVER? ONLY SAW HER GET KICKED AROUND BY LONG. I LIKE BRIGET RILEY ALSO. I SAW HER FIGHT TWICE. BOTH KO's HOW ABOUT BEST WOMAN FIGHTER KNOCKOUTS?

SEI, hey don't think I've seen you on before.

Caps are like shouting and they're hard to read too...no worries, welcome aboard.

CAPS FAN CLUB ! :0 :-) :) sandy man holt u.k.m.t.a www.thaiboxing.co.uk

To Sei Shindo:

Yes, Kyoko was very good. But, She was 20 years old when she
Yes, Kyoko was only 20, and still green at the time dshe fough long.I spoke with her recently and she rates Long and Rijker and Naoko Kumagai as the three toughest women she has fought. And Kyoko had 28 pro fights before she retired two years ago. Would she ever have beaten Long? I doubt it-but she would have made it intesteing had they rematched a few years later. She has lost only to Rijker, Long, Gatto and Undershute, and Naoko Kumagai, who is also one of the top ten muay thai fighters in the world-in my opinion.
Remember, only two persons Willa Bell (early in Kathy's carer) and Lisa Howarth have ever beaten Kathy. And oh yes, Pixie Elmore fought Kathy to a draw. Pixie stopped fighting after a serious motorcycle accident,but ought to be on the list of all time greats for sure. I didn't mention Messer (an all time great) or Rijker, as both have abandoned the sport for boxing.I prefer to give recognition, and publicity, and encpouragement, to those who are stickin to the sport of kickboxing. Hopefully we can stop the exodus of women kick boxers into [pro boxing, with all it's unsavory politics, etc.
But, you are absolutley right: Messer, Long, Riley, defintely belong in
the "hall of fame".
BTW props to Lisa Houghton and Richard Smith for scoring impressive 3rd ko's in Thailand!! BTW, Lisa has challenged Kim Messer, to a Thai rules bout.Now, That would be a great match!Thanks for the input!! Dan

Hey, did Lucia Rijker fight a male fighter once,I think the fight was in Holland???

I have it on tape!!! Lucia still won... Hands down the BEST!!!!

Lucia lost didn't she?

Lucia fought a guy from New Zealand, of Thai Ancestry.
His name is Somcahi Jaidee. He ko'ed Lucia in the second round.
She was down for at least sixty seconds.
While we are onthe subject of ko's...Some one asked about
some of the best female ko's. imho: Number one best ko of all time
was Naoko Kumagai (Japan) koed Lisa Howarth onthe UK in thefirst round with a straight overhand left. You could see Lisa's neck go limp, and her eyes close before her knees buckled. Kumagai has also ko'ed the following women's KB luminaries: Amanda Buchanan (4th round) Regina Halmich (1st round)
Kathy Lomg protege, Lisa smith (first round with knees to the stomach)
Michaella Polo (Italy) first round (Towel thrown in) She also wona decsion over Kim Messer.Kimwas onher bicyce most of the match,andNaoko couldn't catch her.
Suffice it to say, The woman is brutal. Se has a liftimerecord of 31-5-1 with 24 ko's. I would love to see a rubber match between her and Lisa Howarth. Lisa Ko'ed HER the first time they fought, early in Naoko's career.(with some vicious knee thrusts.)

Some other great women's ko's:

Ramona Gatto ko'd Bridgett Riley in the second round. Riley was down and out for nearly two minutes.
Chantal Ko'ed Bambi Bertoncello with a text book spinnng backfist,for the
North American BW champonship.
Alos Rijker's ko of Anne Holmes, and Maxine Adams, in 15 seconds of round one). Also her ko of Valerie Henin. Henin, (who is a splendid kickboxer) went down,almost struggled to her feet,then swooned, and didn;t get up for a while.
Speaking of spinning backfists, what the #### is wrong with the WKA??? (banning such a great technique?_Are they Trying to turn the Kickboxing world into Mr Roger's neighborhood?
I understand France and Canada also don't permit it. And it sure hurt Valerie Henin when she fought Fredia Gibbs. Henin was winning the fight,and had Gibbs down early. But,she attempted a slow, amaturish spinning backfist,and Fredia caught her behind the ear with her back turned, and ko'ed Valerie. Maybe is the technique had not been banned in her native France,she would have had more opportunity to perfect the technique before going to America to fight Fredia Gibbs.
Lisa Houghton scored a third round ko of her Thai opponent, a few days ago..as did her husband, Richard Smith.
Like to see a video of that one..I heard it was a clean ko, with a punch to the body...Houghton is approaching the point where she may well be THE best 108-112 pounder in the world. I wish KIm Messer would take up her challenge to bout under Thai Rules. KIm has no more worlds to conquer in Pro boxing. She already has a world title, and really isn;t getting many fights nowadays.....so why NOT???

,

Dan

The fight I have on tape is when Lucia Riker fought what was supposed to be a 'girl' who later turned out to be a 'guy'. Lucia won that fight by a KO!!

i guess if we will find out if Lisa Haughton (is she sticking with that, or is it "Lisa Smith" now for fights??.... Richard?? are you there?(anybody know if they are back from Thaoiland yet??))

is the No.1 soon enough,
as Leeds Town hall show on 29th Sept. top of the bill is Lisa vs Asako Kami(japan) for the wako pro world title.......

Best Of Luck LISA (not that you'll need it!!)



dan, what do you know about Kami?? she any good?

bonnie canino was a tough dame.

xman. Girl who turned out to be a guy?
Did she look anything like the second photo on the 'My Private Photo's' thread?

LOL

Dan, where did you find all of this info on this Japanese fighter? If anyone wants to see photos or a video of her complete fight with Regina Hamlich, go to http://www.af.wakwak.com/~bhawk/index2.html. Its a japanese text site. Go to the second choice on the home page, click on Regina, scroll to the bottom and you will find it.I'm impressed she took out Lisa Smith in the first, Smith went 10 with messer. Why is Smith called a Kathy Long protoge? Have you seen the fight where Brigit Riley KO's Olivia Gurula befor Gurula ever made it out of her corner? Bonnie canino, another southpaw, hit Howarth with some pretty hard left hands but couldnt get the KO, Howarht kept Canino away with front kicks to the face over and over again.The best "almost" KO has to be the right hand Kathy Long knocked Kamikazi down with. Poor kamikazi did a reverse somersault on the canvas after that shot.

Sei, I met Naoko in Japan, about 12 years ago, when she was only 17, and fighting the great Ella Yee, in only her second pro-fight. She was ko'ed by the the great British Champ, and immediately asked for a rematch. ( I thought she was crazy) But, She was granted a rematch about nine months later, and took the world champion the distance. (I knew then this lady was special.) It just Goes to show how a little a ko means over a very young and green fighter)
Since that time she she has improved exponentially, and has avenged three her five losses. (with the exception of the two losses to Yee, (both of which occured before her eighteenth birthday) who retired some time ago.
I supose you can get her complete fight history from the Fudokhan web page. Of course, I will be happy to e-mail it to you, complete with names and dates places, and the titles that were at stake....if that would be easier. Yes, I have a tape of Bridgett ko'ing Gerula. It was a brutal ko, indeed!! Methinks Olivia was in a bit over her head...she was 5-0 at the time, and 18 uears old.
Lisa "little Sugar" Smith, was trained by Eric Nolan, and Kathy Long, who often worked her corner...Kathy took a special interest in Lisa, and taught her well.
As for Long, and Kyoko, Kathy knocked her down two or three times in the final round, and Kyoko was standing for the final bell. Love her or hate her, she can take a punch!!!
Canno was an excellent Kickboxer-better than she was at boxing, by a long shot. Ditto Riley. Why peole don;t respect the sprot they do best and remain there...Reninds me of all pro loinebacker for the Dallas Cowboys, Ed "too Tall"
Jones, getting punched and around and taking a beating from a not too talented club fighter. Sad, the as an athlete couldn;t carry "Too Talls" jock strap. But, hey, like Mark Gastineau, and other idiots who thought atletic ability could translate from one sport to another, he simply made a foolk of himslef, and tarnished hois image. Ditto some of these gerat female Muay Thai fighters, who switched to pro-boxing, after amassing incredible records in Muay Thai..then end up getting beat by mediocre boxers. Andsadly, that's the way theyu will be remebered...I won'tname any names. They know who they are.
But, I will remind them; the skills, stance, movements, etc, that make a person a great Thai Boxer, are the very skills, that make one a mediocre (at best) as a straight boxer. Not quite as true for "full contact" fighters, who have the same target areas (above the waist) and who often have very good footwork. (But they STILL need to crouch, close their stance, bob and weave) tactics which would be disaster fighting under Thai rules.
But even there, the transition is difficult. And with the advent of women's amature boxing, the number of recyled kickboxers, who successfully transition to straight boxing plummets as we speak.
Anyone who wants to box, needs to fight amature. Question: how many male kickboxers have become world boxing champions?? Maybe one, or two. Count them on the fingers of one hand. Why? Becasue male boxers genarally learned to box from the amatures, which is the far superior road. Women who wish to box, should take heed. The chances for recycled kickboxers to become world champs in western boxing, are rapidly eroding.
And by the way, Cheers to Lisa Houghton and other great Muay Thai fighters, who don't sell out. But instead choose to hang in there, promoting the sport, doing a great job, and making deep footprints.....They will have a real legacy. And it won't be: "she tried professional boxing and was defeated by (fill in the blank) who was a mediocre opponent."

Have a great week,and drop me an e-mail.I would like to ask you something.
cucich@mindspring.com
My Best,

Dan

PS: Toots, I know very little about Atsuko...I will ask some Japanese friends.
It's pronounced: "Aaatsko" the "u" is silent. .

Great post Dan, the girls sure kick butt!

Colin, actually looked like the 3rd photo on that thread!!!! Only with darker skin and top protector... :)))))))))))

Just got back from Thailand.
Lisa had a great fight - stopped her opponent with a body shot in the third.

The girl was tough and determined but not really in Lisas class.
To clear up any confusion, yes we got married in May, but Lisa is keeping Houghton. She is now Lisa Houghton-Smith. Sounds posh!

She will fight on 29 September at Leeds Town Hall, UK for the 49kg WAKO pro World Title.

Richard.
Richard Smith-Haughton would have sounded posher.
(Posher? or should that be more posh)

Do you think I should change my name too? I've always wanted to posh.be

Yeah, change your name too,
face it, it's the only way youll get to be posh!!
:-P

Mr Smith, any pictures to post from your or Lisas fights? Congrats, I read your opponents were some pretty tuff cookies.

WELL DONE to Lisa and Richard, ref: your fights Rich-posh-smith -posh-becks-houghton ! he he ! ( man of many names ! ) on the 26th: Leeds u.k. re: lisa as we all know she has had some top class fights and also some easier ones as all fighters do ! ( i dont want to get into any disagreament again ! so please dont take this the wrong way ! cheers ( you say the thai girl wasnt up to Lisas standard ! i can understand that ! can you tell us what are the stats on the Japanese girl ? ( maybe DAN can ? ) as i beleive Lisa should be doing what KAREN OUSEY AND JUSSY LOWE BOTH DID and this isnt down to you Richard i know "but" ask PAUL HENNESY to do "5x3" rounds ( as Jussy and Karen did for their world titles ! ) i know and "you too" ! that lisa CAN do that "easy" ! i bet Lisa would like to ! ? ! she is well fit enough ! request it Richard ! it might be a better test for Lisa ? THE REASON i mention this, is im frequently asked why ? how come ? an English ladies, British, commonwealth,European `and` WORLD title can be the same ? "5 x 2"mins: ?? over here ? thats MAD ! Yesterday i got a call from a DUTCH / Holland promoter / trainer NICK, he was asking for a rematch with JUSSY and ILLONKA ! Jussy fought her at lateish notice and gave ILLONKA ( in her own admission ) her toughest test to that date ! since then, both girls have gone on to WORLD titles ! NICK was asking for any other fighters ? and Lisas name came up ! ( did he ring you Richard ? i gave him your tel: no: etc: i hope you dont mind ? ) as i know ILLONKA and LISA nearly got it on a short while ago ! ! do you not think this is a better test for LISA ? and i think she is a class act having seen Lisa and Illonka fight, and with JUSSY fighting Lisa and Illonka too ! i know what "ALL" the girls are capable of ! i def: see it as a worthy world TITLE fight ! just a thought !!!!!!!!!! meanwhile well done again in THAILAND nice one ! and more credit to you again Richard ! i thought you'd retired AGAIN ? your MAD as ! hahaha ! respect to ya ! buddy ! ta from sandy man holt u.k.m.t.a
www.thaiboxing.co.uk

There is a short report with photos on our site www.badcompany.co.uk, but I'll try and post some here.
Sandy - Lisa will fight 5x3, 10 x3 or whatever the rules dictate. She has fought 10 x 2 several times and fitness has never been an issue. But the rules of all the associations including the WMC are that women fight 5 x 2 in Muay Thai. You cannot just decide to change the rules yourself. The opponent also has a say in it and they are not going to want to fight 5 x 3 when the rules say 5 x 2, unless they are payed a lot more money. It is hard enough promoting women (especially as the main event) without adding to the cost!
I agree that women are just as capable of fighting 5 x 3 as men and if you want to campaign with the associations for a change in the rules we will support you, but it is not up to us to just change the rules as we see fit.
We are always talking with the Dutch and the fight between Lisa and Illonka will happen - it just hasn't worked out yet.
I say above that the the Thai girl was good but not in Lisas class - but only because Lisa fought a clever fight and did not let her be. Lisa had been offered a fight against an easier opponent in Bangkok but had turned it down in favour of a better test in Koh Samui.The Thai girl has had 32 fights (a lot more than Lisa)and had won her last 5 by stoppage - the last one being less than 2 weeks before - first round ko.
As far as we know the Japanese girl Asako Kamio's record in Muay Thai is 10 wins 2 draws 0 losses, but she has also fought kyo-kushin and free fighting-not sure how many.
Why is it that every time Lisa or I do anything certain people start to ask questions and spreading things around? Maybe we should be flattered that people are talking about us, like in the thread about Neil Woods.

Rock on...all the best...

Richard. Good points about the durations of fights. But why are the promoters allowed to sanction title fights over various durations? My guess is they just sanction the title and suit themselves over the duration.
titles over 5 x 2's, 5 x 3's? Was it the ISKA who allowed a senior title fight over 5 x 1 1/2 novice duration rounds?
It would be a start if all Associations could at least agree on one duration.
British/National 5 x 3. Area 5 x 2's would be a start.

My point is just that. I do not believe that anyone should be able to suit themselves. The rules are the rules.
If we disagree with them, we should try to change them by the proper channels by all means, but not just of our own accord.
I happen to agree that women are /should be able to fight 5 x 3 same as men, but at the moment they do not have to. Same as in boxing, womens world titles are 10 x 2. Mens are 12 x 3. Just because they dont agree with it, no boxing promoter would dream of changing the rules.
And anyway, I dont think Sandy is really making that point. As I see it he is just trying to make out that his girl is somehow a more credible champion because she fought 5 x 3 once, not looking at who she has fought, record and ability.

RICHARD ! please dont think im starting anything up again ! its not whos better ! ? its the 5 x 3 thingy ! and opponents i will always dispute credabilities of some opponents ! if you read back i was praising you and LISA, not knocking you ! its just my way as poss: you are saying re: CAMPAIGNING ref: 5x3 ! its just that KAREN OUSEY did 5x3 v the FRENCH girl for the "W.A.K.O.-PRO" world title on my show in 1999 !! how come its gone back to 5x2 ! i think you should take it up with PAUL HENNESSEY as he has the POWER in the U.k to make that decission ! and i told him the other day that he poss: should do that too !? did you get a call from NICK AMSTERDAM ?? too ? thats all im saying ! cheers. And thanks for the stats too ! as that plays a big part im sure will agree ! ? you dont want lisa to fight a nobody ! you and LISA deserve that, so NOT to lose credability ! thats when you get the Knockers ! it happens you know that ! thats how a lot happened last time with that girl from france, a kickboxer with only 6/7 fights ? and only 1 thai fight, for a World thaiboxing world title ! Lisa has fought much better opposition than that ! and a lot of questions were asked about it ! and i get a lot of people coming up to me as a former fighter/champion, promoter, trainer etc: and 24 years in the sport asking me why ??? i dont have the answers ! ? but im supposed to know ? whats going on ? what do i say ?? the french trainer told people it was her first thai fight and only 7 fights !!!!! ? like i say Richard this is NOT a slur on you !! BUT you have to imagine there are people out there who want answers re: our sport etc: some are not stupid and know a good opponent from a bad one ! LISA's credability is CERTAINLY not on the line ! here, nor yours ! hope this squares things ! thanks ! and good luck with your show i hope its coming together ! ? ta sandy man holt u.k.m.t.a
www.thaiboxing.co.uk

If you are not trying to slur anyone, why bring up the French girl again? I do not beleive in doing this in public, but you ARE trying to discredit what Lisa has achieved. Why are you always trying to put doubts in peoples minds? Why should all these "Knockers" go to you and ask questions about Lisa Houghton? As far as I know they dont go to anyone else and ask questions about us or anyone else!
Lolita Candel is a good Thai Boxer - she had (to my knowledge) 18 fights, 7 of which were Thai Boxing, others in Kickboxing and Savate. Maybe the French trainer said it was her first World title fight. His English was not so good.
The gym she trains at is a Muay Thai Gym with some very good A Class fighters such as Duarte.
Lisa has fought ALL the best fighters in the world at her weight. She has won her last 5 fights by stoppage. If girls at 49 kg cant live with her for 5 x 2, what difference would the extra minute make?
I would not dream of publicly questioning the credentials of the opponents of your fighters to bring their successes into question. Why do you feel you are in a position to do it with us?
I do not feel that I should have to justify myself to you, but you always have to make your comments so public. Every time someone else who comes on Ax has a fight, or wins one do you hear them having to justify themselves and state the exact record of the opponent?