Yes, it's a provocative title :-) But it is how I've always felt about anonymous accounts on forums.

I posted something about this on another thread. Rather than derail that thread, I thought I would post a separate topic for it here. I'm curious what some counter points would be (and I'm sure there will be counter points).

I understand the desire for anonymous accounts on websites. It is one of the perks of the internet. You get to participate in discussions within online communities without having to deal with the drama of retribution for your comments, or personal attacks in response. There is also the issue of someone's post not being taken seriously if they are seen only as a beginner in the sport, or not a fighter.

There is also the simple convenience of not having to fill out a profile. This is probably the number one reason why I've had anonymous accounts before on other websites. I just don't want to bother with it.

Anonymous posting is, in the least, lazy. In the worst case, it is cowardly. Even when there is a legitimate reason rationalizing it, the conclusion is that it is a cowardly thing to not tie your own thoughts and opinions to your identity. They are your thoughts and opinions. You should own them without hesitation, reservation or apology. You should take ownership for your own thoughts.

The reason I'm even bothering to raise this topic on Ax is that we're talking about the fight business here. Fighters, regardless of how you feel about them, risk a lot. They run the risk of permanent injury or losing in devastating fashion in a public venue, and they do it openly, without hiding behind any false identity. They open themselves up to scrutiny each time they perform.

But anonymous posters are the exact opposite. For anonymous posters to criticize a fighter, it just doesn't add up to me. They're not risking anything. They could say the most outlandish things and there is no (or very little) consequence. Not to mention, the legitimacy of the criticism, no matter how insightful or well-written it is, will always be questioned when it is done by an anonymous poster.

There are a lot of downsides and very few upsides to anonymous posting on fight forums. In the worst examples, they lower the quality of an online community.

I've seen one example where anonymity was theoretically justified. Without naming names, a lot of people in a certain region were being legally threatened for criticisms they were saying online about a certain individual. Only a handful of people in that situation had a strong enough will to post criticisms under their own name, regardless of legal threats. I still don't think that scenario is a very decent justification for anonymity, but it's the best one I've heard thus far. I know what I would have done in that situation. I'm not afraid of owning my own opinions (as many of you know).

So let's hear your thoughts (pro and con) on anonymous accounts.

Does it really matter? Are anonymous people's views any less valid? I can understand if they are just blatent shit stirrers. But to say that wanting Anonymity is an act of cowardice is ridiculous.
They have a point of view as does anyone else on this forum, you may agree, you may not, what does their name have to do with anything? They may just not wish for any repercussions. Are polls filled out Anonymously less valid than ones where participants state their name? Are people who call crimestoppers without leaving their name coward's?

DanUK
From reading the post above YES people who phone Crimestoppers ARE Cowards as they should have the guts to risk being shot or stabbed by gangsters for "being a grass".

Welcome back to the stone ages where cavemen have the right to club a woman unconcious and take her back to his cave!

Good night

(on a more serious note)

Trolls suck!!!
Slagging people off is lame, slagigng people off under a false name is even lamer.
Hating someone for having an opinion is lamer still.

If you risk attack for having an opinion or voicing it then F*** freedom of speech and go live in some uncivilised 3rd world country where they keep you behind an electric fence with machine guns.
(yes its that time of night)

It's a tough issue. Suppose in the case of a celebrity, people who are bound by legal contracts to be very limited in their public exposure unless under the supervision of their publicist... lol.. doesn't that sound funny... I suppose those high profile people enjoy the privileges of being anonymous. But I get the feeling we're not talking about those people here.

I do agree it significantly lowers the quality of discussion on an online forum. I think those who post as Anonymous are perhaps new to posting and don't feel comfortable yet with themselves.

DanUK wrote, "They may just not wish for any repercussions."

That is an example of cowardice.

I can think of another semi-rational reason for an anonymous account, that is when your identity distracts people from the point you are trying to make. Your identity could cause people to misinterpret what you're trying to say, where if you posted the comment anonymously, there would not be that filter getting in the way. This has happened to me a number of times on Ax. Since I'm the site owner, people sometimes (mis)interpret what I'm saying in a particular way.

However, avoiding misunderstandings is another form of cowardice. Misunderstandings are a part of life. We naturally interpret what people say largely based on what we know about that person. It's part of our survival instincts. It's part of how we evaluate the people we choose to trust.

I think people have a tendency to hide certain ugly parts of their personality. For example, on Facebook, people tend to use their real identities (because that is how people find you and you build up your friends list). When people post their strong opinions on Facebook, they can lose friends quickly. I've seen a lot of examples of this. I've personally defriended a few people and I've been defriended based on thoughts being posted on FB. The things you say on there are tied to your identity and you have to take the consequences of your own thoughts. It can get ugly sometimes, but I think the result is good. The lack of anonymity on FB adds a mechanism that isn't common on forums.

DanUK wrote, "Are polls filled out Anonymously less valid than ones where participants state their name?"

Yes. The latter would be like a petition, which holds more weight than an anonymous poll. If petitions were anonymous, they would have little impact compared to signing your actual name. It's similar to signing a contract saying, "Yes, this is my opinion." Petitions are usually public and people can connect that opinion to your identity. It means more.

my perspective ? the short one....


they are negative snipers
sometimes can be funny at times but on the whole down right personal and spitefull in most cases !
thing is the old saying is in fact quite the opposite in my view..

"sticks and stones may break my bones... but words alone wont"


the fact is
"words cause Worse mental injuries that cannot be seen as a scar etc: andf also can strt and do... fights and indeed WARS" :-((((
from "Words"

wouldnt it be good if the Mods could name em and shame em tho :-) lol

If i post "i thought fighter A won" and state the reasons why i think this, under my real name, then the again under a false name/no profile, what's the difference?
Why is opinion more valid because you can attach a name to it?

If i post "i thought fighter A won" and state the reasons why i think this, under my real name, then the again under a false name/no profile, what's the difference?
Why is opinion more valid because you can attach a name to it?

Also Brian, if they feel repercussions could effect their club and/or business or cause tensions for their family, surely they are being sensible, not a coward?

Tricky call when some of the most respected names in Thai boxing don't have profiles, but on the other hand some threads get infested with sock puppets and there's nothing to stop people entering fake information in their profile. One option might be to link AX's authentication with something like Facebook Connect or Sign In with Twitter. You could still keep the existing system but having a link to someone's Twitter or Facebook profile means they've got to work harder to come up with a fake or blank profile.

im here pandy??xxx

for what its worth i think trolls as they are known are only there because ppl rise to the bait! seen some threads with total jerks on gettin there kicks cos the normal folk are givin them ammo. blank them and they go any simplesxx

good point hustler but not everyone without a profile is out to cause arguments. you can usually tell which ones are out to cause trouble.. i have my days where have arguments and strong views but its all harmless fun.. whos it hurting really???

I think people should be accountable for their actions, whether that is something they have done in person or something they have written.

It also makes most posts far more valid and of value, as it is unlikely many would come on a forum such as this and spot the bile they do if they knew they could be tracked down by the person they are having a go at in a 'keyboard warrior' manner.

They then could still criticise someone, but in a far more eloquent and polite way, which is how it should be done.

Phil is right, i find it really annoying that i can for example be slated or have people fall out wiht me over an opinion on something like who won a fight, while Mr Micky Mouse False identity can go on a pseudonym and slag people off and generally talk a load of shite about someone that is quite clearly fabricated and get away with it!

But what if someone signed up and used their real name, and talked a load of shite about someone that was quite clearly fabricated, what's the difference?
Trolls should be expelled, don't get me wrong.
The fundamental point is, why should someone HAVE to put their name to their opinion? And why should an anonymous opinion be less valid than an "open" opinion?

What if someone under a blank profile states " I think fighter A won that fight" you all disagree and because he has no name to his profile disregard or devalue his opinion, then it turns out he's a world champion of 20 years experience.....

An opinion is an opinion whether a name is attached or not, just because i put my name to my opinion, does that mean my opinion is any more valid than someone who does not?

As MH stated earlier there a some respected names in the Thai community with no profiles, are they cowards Brian?

from a blank profile outsider's prespective looking in, it seems the problem is inhouse, i dont think for a minute that some of the stuff that's said on here is common knowledge & just picked up from visiting shows, to use a tony montana term some of the members here are chazzer, they dont fly straight lol

..its the same members with accounts that wouldnt appreciate the same sort of insults thrown their way that are insulting other members on here, it's cliques, friends of friends & inside jokes

...all this about consequences of actions & talk of cowardice makes professional athletes seem quite thuggish...i dont doubt there are some thugs involved in muay thai but most are sporstmen, as for the thug element among the pro's, there's an old saying up the road...u cannae karate a screwtop & if you're gonna act gangster then get it right lol street neds dont bow to each other & fart about on websites

if you put yourself out there in public with a look at me element in the name of promotion or whatever with posting personal information etc then you can expect a certain element of the public responding, the saying if you've nothing nice to say then say nothing at all is a good un but not always practised but to expect everybody to be caring & respectful individuals is wishful thinking and while a nice idea it wouldn't reflect society accurately,

at then end of the day people are entitled to their opinion, if some of the members here were demonstrating in their local town centre there'd be an % of the locals that would think that what they were doing was a load of pish, some may voice this opinion, some may keep it to themselves but it's silly to think that if somebody did shout out in the middle of town that the person looks daft or shite or whatever that there'd be consequences lol like what? reprimanding a person that voices an opinion, threatening them with violence, intimidation? what?

end of the day members here choose to share their personal achievements & whilst it's applauded it's naive to think that everyone will be a fan or praise the achievements of the individual

as for cowardice in muay thai, some of the stuff thats shared on the forums as common knowledge about thaialnd is very disrespectful & highlights more on areas that these individuals have been socialising & who with, i doubt members are as vocal about thailand being full of little brown gypsies, thieves etc etc etc when these same members are travelling over there to stay with thais & expecting thai's to share their nations culture & arts...are these same members entitled to their opinion?, are they entitled to share it openly? & are the cowards for not sharing the same opinion with every thai they meet?, including the real thai mafia types lol are they self serving hypocrites? or just genuine people sharing their experience of their travels?

simple way to solve the problem would be make the site members only, members only can view/post in threads, only verified members that are sworn in on recomendation of another member & log isp & prevent proxies, then it will be clear that it's an inside problem with the member base rather than an outside problem with anons causing problems, & you'll also be able to hold people accountable for what they've said

lol bit long winded but there ya go..couple of pennies worth

Conkers ..... great post.

Actually, I agree, I think that most of the "anon" posters on here are just people with second accounts. However, I can completely understand why.

It's common knowledge that there's a definate clique on Ax and, to use them as an example, if anyobdy dares post something that they disagree with, it time and again results in insults, challenges, the "how many fookin fights have you got" type arguments etc. Unfortunately, many of the people on here who are in positions of responsibility, ie. judges, referees, promoters and coaches, are capable of acting in anything BUT a professional matter. So basically I'm left with 3 possible decisions. I can (A) not post at all, (B) post my comment under a safe anonymous account or (C) make a comment which is more than capable of antagonising a judge who'll then be biased, a ref who'll then be biased or a promoter/coach who won't give me any fights. Sometimes one person fits all of the above.

Now I have never posted under a second account, I chose the other path. I made a couple of comments that some people didn't like and instead of posting anon comments I just resorted to barely posting at all and generally avoiding certain threads. But why the hell should someone feel like they have to make that decision in the first place? I believe Ax had people regularly posting on it from all over the world only a few years ago. This cliquey attitude is exactly why they don't anymore. And in the long run it's why I tell everyone I've taught or trained alongside to avoid Ax. And that's quite a few people who may otherwise have signed up and provided some good contributions. But then, Ax isn't about contributing anymore, it's about stroking people' egos and frankly, too many of them have much too big egos to begin with.

It isn't the anonymous posters who're the problem (though they have the potential to be) it's the people who're so rabidly antognistic towards viewpoitns they don't like who're the problem. Case in point; I think Farhad's a bit of a numpty when it comes to his opinions regarding thai boxing and have told him so in the past (no offence farhad) but I'd never for a second say that he doesnt have a right to them or go even further with personal insults and challenges which so many do.

Sorry just read conkers post and he says much the same things.

Well said

well said nephilm. theres a certain "click" on this forum if your opinions arent the same??????

An anonymous post is fine if it offers a relevant and measured critique, and if the person it is aimed at then cannot engage in sensible debate with such a poster then it is they who have the problem and not the anon.

Everyone needs to be critical of themselves to improve, and it sometimes needs to be an honest appraisal from another to highlight this and to enable us to make changes for the better.

The problem is that a lot of anon posts are simply made to wind people up in a malicious way, with the poster hidden behind a computer screen never to be revealed. That is when the cowardice comes in and the only real way to deal with it, if anon posters are still to be allowed, is to nip them in the bud and have a zero tolerance policy in such accounts.

I also wouldn`t say there is a clique ruling Ax, as I am sure there are plenty of threads with plenty of different posters on.

The main reason for the loss of geographic particpation on Ax, imo, is simply due to the rise in popularity of MT in Britain which meant a lot more British people were joining and contributing. Our sense of humour, however, tends to be fairly unique, and I think this rubbed a lot of others up the wrong way, unintentionally.

So yes, maybe there is now a UK clique, but I`m sure you mean it is on a far more localised scale than that i.e. Leeds and associated people (let`s not beat around the bush), which i would have to disagree with.

Ooops, my names on my profile, hope I don`t get a visit one night :)

I love how Sandy randomly misuses speach marks! :D

I do agree that a lot of anonymous posts are usually made to wind people up. I also agree that such accounts should be given a warning for a first offence, temp ban for a second offence and a full ban for a third.

However, if you're gonna go ahead and do this then certain people on this website who like to resort to the aforementioned name calling, personal insults, rampant swearing, personal challenges and such should also be subject to those same rules, regardless of who they are. I, for one, don't see that happening at the moment. As such, I can't honestly say whether or not the anonymous wind up posts are a result of the clique attitude or not, but I believe it to be so.

You are correct about my assumptions on the clique. Don't get me wrong however. I'm not tarring you with the same brush because of where you're from or who you're friends with - I judge everyone individually based on their actions. You, I've never really seen post anything that I've thought was unreasonable or overly rude etc. I can't say the same for people who's names are a lot more widely known though. As stated, you have a different opinion from me on the matter and I respect that, but I'm sticking to mine own lol.

No problem mate, and that is what it is all about, reasoned debate.

I`m in my own personal little camp on here though, and not affiliated with any gym, person etc who comes on here, just to make that clear (although if they support LUFC I will subconsciously agree with all they say!). I`m a one man clique! :)

I think the trolls attack a person because of the gym they are from, and they wrongly think they are doing their own gym a favour by having a go, when it only results in aggro and nothing productive. I don`t personally think it is to do with a particular persona.

I would wipe the trolls out as soon as they make their first ridiculous post which has a sole intent of being malicious. Yes, they may join again with a different name, but they would soon get bored if their posts were removed almost as soon as they were put up (moderation time allowing).

It took me a couple of days to get my account activated - if someone has the patience to do that several times just to troll then I'm amazed lol.

I used to be on ax all the time, but with the rise in trolls I have been posting less and less. There is no point in arguing the point with some nameless. And thats not anything to do ego or 'me being right'....so what if someone has a different opinion to you. If you know your own mind, and you know yourself, you dont have to justify it to other people.

Ax is good for publicity.
Over-publicity and spamming pisses people off.
Ax is not a place to discuss personal problems or aire overly-personal views.
Dont type anything that you wouldnt say to someones face. (I think this is where the 'thuggish' quote may come from).
The written word is very precise and lacks tone, pitch and volume (as well as body language), so is very easy to mis-understand.
A good filter could be for a pop-up to come up before posting, saying something like:
"If someone else was to use this post as a quote of my personality and professionalism to a potential employer, or on a CV, would I be happy with it?"

If all conversations were discussed in a calm rational manner, then it may be more constructive, but I know some people who like it when passions are raised and it all kicks off. The higher you climb up the 'emotional ladder' the further you get away from rationality.

I agree, it would be good if ax could link to facebook accounts and IP addresses, to make it harder to create fake acounts and the use of proxys.

You can't post on Ax unless it fits with people want to hear. It's become a fan club not a forum.

Rubbish Rickster.

If you think like that then you need to have a word with yourself.

Put what you think in an eloquent manner and if someone disagrees enter into a reasoned debate with them.

If your intitial post is fair and has something to back it up, then you will find most on here will reply with the same respect you have shown them, and with their own reasoned viewpoint.

its not just ax, its every single forum in existence, covering zillions of different topics.
there will always be trolls, always be idiots, always be cool people, always be ego's, always be nice people, always be stupid people...on every forum everywhere! thats what happens when every single person in the world (potentially)has access to a pc!

I'll have a word with myself Phil.

You keep sticking your head in the right holes

and that one post sums up the reasoning for this whole thread, you`ve done well for your fellow anons mate.

I think the main thing that has happened is it's all gone a bit stale. At one point it was all good banter plenty of funny threads and piss taking to the current times where everybody seems to want to have a dig at each other behind the keyboard. Bring back the freestyle thread

Basically what Conkers says. Some of the footie forums you can remain anonymous but you have to have your registration to join verified by the moderators, all they ask is a non web based email address on your registration, like your isp or work (if you can get away with it). Not having a profile doesn't make someone a troll, however the main character trait of a troll is the lack of a profile, so entering into a web forum debate minus a profile means the person always runs that risk of being tarred with the brush and any 'natural' comment of a controversial intimation can bring the troll accusation.

Some of the trolling at times can be amusing but in the main the objective seems to be trying to divide opinion and antagonise and at time some of the trolls appear to have caused alot of upset to folks. I remember a few years ago some porn pictures with faces super imposed on them which were hugely disrespectful and insulting, trolling at its worst

dandy, randy bandy dont drink shandy to u lol ;-p

I personaly don't think it is cowardly. There a lot of fake profiles on here and I'm sure you would agree with that Brian. Also to name or give away information of peoples details is a serious offence and against the data protection act. People choose to post anomalously as it is there choice and it is there as an option to do so.

Nephilim I think your post was spot on. The cliques that exist on here wont listen to certain opinions and if they don't like it they will gang up on that individual. So this leads to Trolling. I've seen a lot of threats flying around on here and a lot of cursing and still their accounts exist after this. I do believe there is some favoritism on here too. But that's just life.

I don't think you need a profile on here either. Most of the people with their profiles filled out may as well be fake as there is so much back stabbing going on in the Muay Thai and Kick Boxing circuit. I wont name any body as that's up to them if they want to tell them in person, but a lot of people that get on when together talk behind each others backs and say rather bad things.

This is an interesting topic and I shall be seeing what others contribute.

Thanks

I don`t recall seeing any threats?

heres one,

One currently active axer recently threatened to shoot a former axer, I would class that as a threat,

I personally warned Nephlim not to use ax as he would incur the wrath of the nuf said/end of, halfwits. if come across any of my students on ax I recomend they tread carefully, if its a junior i recomend they delete the account, a few years ago I used to give every member who joined a note of recomended websites ax was on the top of the list, hell i used to put thier logo on posters to drum up buisiness for the site.

I find Most coaches and some promoters consider ax as either detrimental to the industry/ or at least a pain in the ass.

quite frankly if I joined today it would be as an anonomous poster, like many I have moved onto Facebook where i can moderate what goes on my wall.

Sorry brian , but ax has been hijacked and its pants compared to what it was 6-8 years ago.

let the abuse begin

stevie nisbet, I thought that was a very realistic post.
I have noticed that there tends to be one rule for one and another for the others.

I noticed a thread recently where an individual was targeted and the actions where intended to evoke laughter towards him in a scornful manner.

Luckily this person seems to have a very strong will and was able to deflect all that was thrown at him.

I personally wouldn't use the term "nuf said/end of, halfwits" but agree that it is up to you stevie to use this. I see you have a profile and to me it makes no difference who you are because I have never met you. I commend you that you do not push your students on here. This is a good choice as it is a very pro English distorted forum and one filled with threats, anger an biased opinions.

Thanks

Was that threat actually put on a post on here Stevie?

no, in person at a set of trafffic lights,

An AXer threatened to shoot a former AXer at a set of Traffic lights???????

WTF is the world coming to!

People are still responsible for their actions and the words they type. Just because the words are typed in the comfort of their own home, please refer to my previous post and only write things you would say to that persons face. In around 10,000 posts on ax I have had about 2 or 3 occasions where I have wanted to speak to to that individual in person. This is not a threatening nature, but there has to be a degree of realism, otherwise all this site is, is a waste of time and pontification, rather than debate on the sport we love.
With proper profiles comes accountability.
If you do not believe in your statements strongly enough to stand by them, maybe its the type of thing you shouldnt be typing.

As for some of the other issues that are raised above, multiple posts and self-publicity rub people up the wrong way. Its spam. Its unsolicitted mail, preaching to the converted. Most people dont expect to get overly hyped spam/sales pitches on every post and repeated photgraphs that do not have much to do with the subject matter of the thread. Some people are known for posting tenuous links to the subject matter as another method of self-publicity. People see through the thinly veilled hype. This is why I think facebook is a god-send.....but some still use ax as a facebook site.
Some people believe that all publicity is good publicity.....but its not, when you rub people up the wrong way. It makes a mockery of what you are trying to do and makes you look unprofessional.
There are national differences (between USA and the UK) as you see on early morning TV (with the 'paid adverts' giving it the hard-sell). This is why I think its a good thing that ax have regional moderators.

I'm pretty sure you've mentioned that you're a mind coach a few times rich :-)

good points noi, anons are fine aslong as they are not talking bollox, when they antagonise or insult and dont have the balls to do it under their own name they become a coward in my eyes!

Agree Paul, thier is a huge difference with an anonomous poster making comment, and dishing out abuse, effective moderation and monotoring of suspect trolls should be able to clamp down on this,
I also agree with NOI the amount of shameless promotion on her is to a degree funny but also detracts from the core purpose of some threads, However in defence of the people who do this I us it as a bullshit filter, IE i get 10 posts down and 9 of them are from the same person then (in general) the threads bullshit.

Stevie

So pretty much any post sandy makes stevie? :-D

As rich said above, people should only be willing to post that which they have the balls to say to someone's face. However, if I made an account now, I wouldn't put my details on it. I can assure you however, that there's virtually nothing I won't say to someone's face unless I think they're going to stab me if I say it. In which case, I don't need to say anything and their attitude speaks for itself.

This is actually how I view ax these days. I don't bother posting things that I should have every right to post, things that I WOULD say to peoples' face, because in general, their attitude when this occurs speaks for itself. Personally I laugh when some of the anonymous troll types wind up certain people though I don't condone it. I still think however that these people post as a reaction to the attitudes prevalent amongst many of ax's most common posters and as stated above, I believe there to be a strong case of favouritism when it comes to these people. Regular swearing, threats, bullying and trolling coming from THEM goes largely unnoticed. I repeat: anonymous posters aren't the largest problem on ax and I think it can be largely rectified by doing something about the other.

i am a troll

Okay, I waited a while to reply because I wanted the thread to fill up with some ideas. The responses were mostly what I expected. Let me clear up some of my thoughts.

In the grand scheme of things, anonymous accounts do nothing positive for a community. I've been observing anonymous posting behavior from a moderator standpoint on Ax for 12 years now. DanUK asks me if an anonymous poster could have valuable insight or commentary. Sure, it's possible. But I still value someone's input more if I know they are putting forth their identity. Then I can assured that if there are any ulterior motives or biases, they will be more evident. Like i said before, what we know about a person changes how we interpret their comments.

Posting under an anonymous alias affects how people communicate. 9 times out of 10, when someone uses an anonymous account, they talk like an asshole. There are the exceptions where some people will talk like an asshole under their own identity. But I can at least appreciate that. That way, everyone knows that guy is an asshole.

I'm very opinionated on certain topics. I don't apologize for that. When I speak about something, you all know what I think and you can associate my opinions with my identity. If there is any flack that I take from that, then so be it. I'm not afraid of any negative interactions that may result from me stating my opinion. I just try to make sure I'm expressing my opinions clearly enough and try not to use personal insults. As the owner of Ax, I could very well get a negative result from stating my opinions...and I don't really care. The healthiest thing for any community is for everyone to see each other clearly.

The problem is that many of you are associating these problems with Ax when these are really problems with the UK community. Stevie Nisbet said, "Sorry brian , but ax has been hijacked and its pants compared to what it was 6-8 years ago." Ya know what also happened within the last 6-8 years? Ax has turned into a predominantly UK userbase. Gee, what a coincidence that is. There couldn't possibly be some sort of correlation between ...ah nevermind. Let's just blame Ax and go hide out on Facebook.

That's right, I said hide out on Facebook. Facebook has a lot of great features, but it is not even in the same ballpark as Ax or any other fight forum. Ax has 40,000 unique visitors per month (and growing) and almost 300,000 unique visitors per year. How many Facebook friends do you have? You can try to avoid your own community by interacting with select people on Facebook, but that is not a real solution. Ax exposes a lot of the issue within your community.

Over-sensitivity is one of the issues. Some people can't take criticism well. That's lame. But you know what is MORE lame? I would say 90% of anonymous posters on here are assholes. There are good ways and bad ways to write criticism. Anonymous users usually post with a very harsh tone, often making fun of a fighter. Stevie Nisbet wrote "quite frankly if I joined today it would be as an anonomous poster". I'll bet if Stevie did that, he would write posts with a different tone than he does today. Being anonymous gives people the right to expose the worst sides of their personality with no consequences. Professionalism goes out the window.

Anonymous posters provide a very small percentage of value to an online community. DanUK asks "Are anonymous people's views any less valid?" My answer is "hell yes". If you saw online communities from my perspective, you would know that is an obvious answer. When we interpret ideas, we take into consideration the person saying them. That is an important function of human communication. It makes even MORE sense in a community as competitive and political as the UK KB/MT community. It is important to know why someone is saying something.

People talk about bias on the Ax forum. There is some bias, but not as much as you think. I heavily respect fighters and fight professionals. They perform their jobs publicly and expose themselves to public scrutiny and criticism. They have very little incentive to sit around and hear negative criticism all day, especially if it is conveyed with a rude tone. It is a privilege that you get to interact with them directly on a forum like this. When they hear criticism from an anonymous account, they must instinctively think about who that person is and why they might be saying that. It makes perfect sense. It also makes sense that someone like that would have very little respect for someone posting anonymously, considering that they themselves are always in the public eye.

I could write a book about this topic. I have a ton of opinions about it (obviously). I just wanted to get the pulse of some Ax users about anonymous users. For many years, I've considered requiring validation for new Ax Accounts. Now that Facebook is popular, and 95% of Facebook accounts are people's true identities, people are getting conditioned to interacting with people under their real names. I like where this is headed.

If all of the anonymous accounts on Ax suddenly disappeared, would I care? Would I miss them? Over time, I would probably get more quality posters and I would probably still get the same number of visitors (if not more). In fact, I would probably see a spike in visitors in the beginning, since it's a controversial issue. I see very few downsides except for a handful of people complaining. That's nothing new. People complain anyway.

That completely ignores most of what I said though Brian. Most of the anon posters on here are just known people on second accounts I guarantee it. They post on these accounts because that way they don't have to put up with the BS that most of the more common posters here will give them simply because they don't like the opinion. People on here can, and DO gang up if one of their clique takes offence at a comment, no matter how nicely put. The anon posters will then make the point that they would've reasonably made in a much more antagonistic manner because they've already felt slighted by the fact that they've had to make the second account in the first place.

And as for the bias, some of the biggest names in the UK thai boxing scene come across like absoulute wankers on here, precisely because they spout crap they wouldn't dare say to peoples' faces. And does anything happen to them? Not anything that seems to produce a result. Yes there may be a correlation between the rise in UK members but you as the moderator have the responsibilty to enforce the rules of your own forum: rules which are put in place precisely to avoid this crap from happening in the first place.

I'd prefer to see Farhad and his constant accusations of "TROLL!" and requests for various name and shames rather than the abuse and bullying that comes from certain people on this forum (who should know a lot better) ANY DAY of the week.

Nephilim wrote: "They post on these accounts because that way they don't have to put up with the BS"

In other words, they are trying to skirt around the problems within their community by using anonymous accounts. These are problems within the UK community, period. It's not an "Ax" thing. Ax just exposes whatever problems are there. Anonymous accounts exacerbate the problems rather than fix the problems.

A word about the moderation...

I would ban Dave Jackson if he said something inappropriate on Ax. Richard Smith has some advertising on Ax right now, but I would also suspend his account in a heartbeat if he said something incredibly inappropriate. When it comes to keeping the forum inline, I don't care who the user is. If I feel like they crossed a line, I act appropriately. I've done this a number of times and don't get credit for it because you guys don't always see it.

When I say there is a slight bias, that just means that I generally value the input of fight professionals and people with real profiles more than I value input from anonymous posters. I don't give a rat's ass if the anonymous poster is actually a respected member of the community. The fact that they are using an anonymous account removes most the respect I would have had for them. I do believe it is cowardly thing and I do believe that it hurts the community simply because they don't like it when they get a negative reaction to their posts. boo-hoo. Let me hand them a tissue. That's how I feel about it.

I'm not talking about users who don't have a profile filled out, but they aren't hiding their identity. I'm talking specifically about people trying to hide their identity, even going as far as changing how they write.

The over sensitivity is not exclusive to fighters or fight professionals. A lot of people feel like they have the right to say whatever they want about a fighter, but when someone responds in disagreement, it must be a clique or they're getting ganged up on, or it's somehow not fair.

Let's pretend we are all physically standing in a big room and we're talking about Muay Thai. Someone stands up and says "Liam Harrison never fights any quality Thai opponents because he would get squashed". How would you imagine people in the room would react? I imagine a large amount of them would respond in disagreement with a very bitter tone to their voice. There would probably be some curse words involved. Is that ganging up? Or is that naturally the effect of people disagreeing with the rudely stated criticism about a popular fighter? It would be pretty stupid to expect everyone in the room to reply with a courteous, "I don't agree, but I respect and appreciate your opinion".

Sometimes, fighters get out of line when they post something. They are human, and not all of them are nice people with a cool head. When they get out of line, I have no problem moderating them. The problem is (and has always been) that there are 200-300 new messages on Ax every single day. I cannot read them all. Neither can Dave Jackson. That is why I added the "report post" option on Ax. A LOT of people get away with inappropriate posts all the time because of the number of daily posts on Ax. I think people seem to notice more when a fighter or promoter is speaking inappropriately. Some also hold fighters up to a ridiculous standard where if they say one curse word then they are considered "attacking" someone for their opinion.

I suppose a lot of things can be considered "abuse". Anonymous posters feel no sense of responsibility whatsoever. Why would I value them?

This just reminded me.....
I actually started 'noi666' as an anonomous account, purely because I didnt know how forums worked and didnt really know what I was doing. I then realised that as I spoke my mind, in a calm curtious way, people started to listen to what I had to say and I had a valid opinion that other people agreed with and I was made to feel like part of the community....This is when I started to fill out my profile and basically endorsed my anonomous profile with a true identity.

I never acted like a prick when it was anonomous so you build a certain respect.....and I think that is the key to anonomous accounts, differentiating between anons and trolls. Some anon profiles do bring something to open discussion, others are merely antagonistic.

Nephilim: I only started plugging my services when I got made redundant from my job on the railway and decided to do my mind coaching full time. I started one thread when I did this. Every other occasion I have posted about my mind coaching services has been in direct response to a question or a particular problem that I could help with. I do this with no agenda, merely trying to help people out.
As a side note I understand how you may have come to your conclusions about certain fighters and industry professionals, but as I suggested earlier, I started in very much the same way as yourself (with the anonomous profile) but you did start with some contraversial that rubbed a few people up the wrong way. Almost like a baptism of fire. To be fair, it doesnt get much worse than that. You were just unfortunate with a couple of thread choices. Hope this helps. Onwards and upwards :)

Hey rich I wasn't getting at you man - was just pullin your leg.

I don't really wanna talk much about what happened when I first joined cos that'd seem to much like whinging and to be honest, I don't feel that strongly about it. I still stand by my opinions however and would make them again - if I didn't think I was going to get abuse and useless criticism hurled at me from certain quarters. It's almost like there's a list of phrases and words that aren't allowed when it comes to fighters or it's deemed to be criticism - almost a sin the way some go on. Suffice to say that I say some of Ax's top posters acting in a more abusive and antagonistic way than many of the anonymous posters do and on a regular basis yet never see anything happen to them. I don't think Brian has an easy job but I don't think he's being entirely honest when he says that all the fighters/coaches etc on ax get treated the same and are subject to the same rules and discipline.

I know mate.... :)
No worries....
Its just that the written word is so absolute and easy to miscommunicate/misunderstand (its a two-way thing).
The people who are straight-talking can come across as abusive when adjectives are swapped for swear-words to excentuate their passion.

What is this clique everyone keeps talking about? I havnt really noticed it? Are we talking Thai of FC? Fair enough there are a few bellends and asslickers on here, and a few people who continually piss others off (Farhad :) ) put bullying is a bit strong isnt it? If it goes on it let's talk about it....

brian, if you feel so strongly about anon accounts then why not just remove them?, maybe i'm missing something?? if you honestly believe that all anon accounts have a detrimental effect on your business place then why allow it? you've mentioned that you dont value the opinion of anon accounts either so why not just deactivate all memberships?

from my pov i really dont understand it, what i mean by that is i dont know anybody on here personally, therefore i could have filled out a bogus account with a made-up name, as nobody knows me & ive not met any people on here personally then who'd be the wiser? would that have made me more credible on here though called william conker(fictional name) i agree the verification with facebook is a good idea if you want to ensure that somebody is genuine but i dont understand the delay in actions when you feel so strongly on the subject & are so against unknown members & state that its stalling your visitor numbers

i dont have a facebook page, i'm obvioulsy a minority but truth be told i think all the facebook stuff is a bit sad, ive pals on there & i tell them the same thing, u speak to your pals on the phone or you see them, i can understand the value of it for somebody trying to promote themeself or for somebody that has family abroad & wants to keep in touch but even then...why not just write them an email or phone them

i've tried to ignore most of the talk on here calling anons cowards/trolls etc i always assumed that these comments were against the people looking to cause problems, i've read these posts myself & thought they were out of order lol i didnt think these comments were actually referring to me but from the owners mouth it seems it is

so why not delete all the anons & impliment this verification system asap, the verification thing might take a bit longer but anybody on your member base who isnt actually known & verified then just purge your database of them, tbh after the opinions of the owner im not that bothered & im not gonna sign up to something i dont personally agree with(fb) just to post on here, i like to keep my private life private, anything my close friends & family need to know about me they know already, perhaps i'm just a bit more private than some of you, if that makes me a troll then thats up to you guys & says more about the people judging me than it does about me, this troll label is meant to insult a person, for me its just some daft jargon made up by the internerds

It's mainly on the MT community side Dan. I don't want to go down the naming route because who it is at this moment isn't the point. It's also rather subjective depending on the opinion of the person naming people.

Quite the point Nephilim, if u were anonymous, would you name them?

Another good post Mr Conkers. Same for noi666.

Hell, at the end of the day its a forum, not life or death decision making.

I too am annoyed at Brians poor choice of wording for 'anon-posters' like myself. "Cowardly" is a touch offensive imo.

I've only been on here for about 5/6 months and have recommended the site to other lads I know. TBH, I like the forum very much and just like in real-life situations, I ignore the dick-heads.

Like yourself Mr Conkers, if Brian decides to go down the road of 'profile only' posting, then thats his decision and I too will be offski.

Hope he doesn't though, as I'd miss Sandys pictures and Soldier of Loves truthfulness.

Yeah, agree, Brian has strong views, fair enough, so why not ban non-profile posters?

You can agree or disagree with a post, debate and rebut arguments, is a name important?

Nah Dan I wouldnt name them if I was anon because thats not whats stopping me. As some of the people on here who know me personally can testify, I pretty much say whatever I think and then deal with the consequences later. And as I said, I might have a certain experience from some people that others don't and therefore wont agree with.

a name is not important. the fact that opinions are being put forward that every one is saying but does not want to cause problems between there gym and others.
so every poster with out a profile is a troll????

Usually a fake name is just a person on here who has two names to support himself iv seen from expierience.

That is why there must be zero tolerance, rather than removing all anons.

If an anon oversteps the mark just once, then they are deemed a troll, their account removed and IP noted.

Those who are anon but make constructive or inoffensive remarks then don`t have anything to fear do they, and it`s not as if there is a thin line, anons on here are either 100% obviously malicious or not.

Rich completely backs up my point. I only communicate with people on here, and any other forum I may be on, as I would with them face to face.

I like to think I`ve got more about me than wasting time with idle threats on here or in person, or pretending to be someone I`m not, and I like to think most people in the world would be able to debate a criticism of themselves if I put it forward to them whilst communicating in person, as I would if someone had a realistic criticism of me. Surely being civil and socially able isn`t really too much to ask of people, even on a base level?

I'll answer questions posed by DanUK and billybigconkers in a bit.
I just stumbled upon an article that happens to be related to our discussion here.

It's written by a product designer at Facebook.

Where Anonymity Breeds Contempt
Here are a few snippets...

"Psychological research has proven again and again that anonymity increases unethical behavior.
...
There's even a term for it: the online disinhibition effect.
...
Some may argue that denying Internet users the ability to post anonymously is a breach of their privacy and freedom of expression. But until the age of the Internet, anonymity was a rare thing. When someone spoke in public, his audience would naturally be able to see who was talking."

To me, this points to the direction that online communities are heading.

Having read this thread from start to finish, and this being my first post for months wanted to simply add that 'a man owns his words' Just as words without an author carry no weight.

It is unfair to draw parallels with Police informants. As its a necessary feature of encouraging people to tell the truth and bring down criminals. Invariably the 'grass' is an ordinary person wanting to do society a solid. Whilst the back lash is at the behest of those with an already declared criminal and possibly violent proclivity. One must be protected from the other.

Expressing a venal opinion without fear of consequence is cowardly. Just as making a polite, factual and constructive comment without a declared identity is reasonable way of fuelling debate.

On another thread two contributors asked questions that i felt worthy of answers. And as they filled in their accounts fully i elected to email them.

Thats it from me im gone

What intrigues me is that some people on here are suggesting that we are moderating in a biased manner yet they don't assist us to identify the areas we are missing by using the "report post" feature.

We can't read everything that is posted on a daily basis and use of the feature by ax users would draw our attention to things that need immediate moderation.

Since its implementation it has hardly ever been used and when it has its by the same few people.

The reason why I chose the wording I did (re:cowardly) is partly because I do believe that for the most part, but also because I want to get the attention of those anonymous users who feel that being anonymous doesn't do any harm to an online community. Using a provocative title seems to have worked, to some extent. I did get some feedback here.

This isn't my first time discussing this topic. This is something I've been thinking about for a lot of years. Here is a thread that I posted back in 2004 about anonymous accounts where I discuss the pros and cons of a forum with only verified accounts.

Ax has grown steadily since that discussion. in 2004, Ax had just over 2,600 registered users. Now there are something like 13,000 users. This growth has happened despite being one of the few forums that doesn't have an instant registration process.

So I imagine if that 13,000 users were reduced to 4,000 verified accounts, Ax could still be a busy forum, since it was back in 2004 with only 2,600 users. I would expect it actually to be busier. I would expect visitor numbers to increase as Ax attracts more fight professionals to the forum (and recovers the ones who left a long time ago).

It wouldn't be a cure-all. There would still be issues within the community that get in the way of communication. But it would be a major step forward, in my opinion.

So the question is why don't I do it? Implementation of a verification process would be a huge challenge. That's probably the only thing holding me back from doing it at this point. I think I understand all of the counter points by now. I know what the decision entails.

Unless someone wants to explain more reasons why you think it is a bad idea. I'm still listening.

i think you'd save yourself a lot of headaches if you put conditions on your sign up page e.g you only want verified members that have filled out ther true information on their profile pages, as it is there is nothing of the sort on there ...unless i've missed it?

so when people sign up as they would normally(i dont read or post on many foums but take the boxing forums for example, i dont see people there with their actual names etc) then they're hit with this shit from you & a few of the disgruntled members that have filled in all their details, i would say that the majority that filled in their accounts accurately were more interested in being able to promote themselves & the few that add details after sign up do so in an effort to fit in, it could be viewed as being a part of a community or peer pressure or just being sheeple & following the crowd

as i said before i'm not all up on this internet jargon, im getting on myself(too many grey hairs) & dont feel the need to pick up the lingo to fit in with the youth, again i laugh at my friends when they come out with some of these phrases & fit hip words into what they are trying to convey in an adult conversation, u could say i was boring or a bit old fashioned or you could say i had a sense of my own identity..that may seem like a contradiction to those that have embraced this era of the net completely & feel the need to post online about every trivial detail of their life for the world to see

i used to live up the road where people are more friendly & do chat openly to strangers, down south this is considered crazy, people are a bit more stuck up & would rather sit alone in silence than chat to somebody they've ever met on a bus, now that aside, i wouldnt go annoncing details of my personal life to a stranger, i wouldnt feel the need to walk around with a sandwich board with my name & age, making announcemnets about myself in the high street, the non virtual version of what facebook is for many

now my understanding of the word troll, which could be way off, is that it's somebody intentionally trying to offend somebody in order to get a reaction, behavior that you've just held your hands up to brian, so if you feel you have too many trolls on your site then perhaps its best you address this head on & lead by example rather than indulge in trollish behavior yourself & think that its excused because you've some name on your profile page, who are you? your name means nothing to me, yet you feel you can insult people because you've filled out your name, at the end of the day you're still acting like this behind a screen, hardly brave is it?

as for the business aspect of your post well it would seem you've had long enough to implement something or at the very least address the issue properly(like on your sign up page) rather than just getting wee digs to members that have signed up to your site & do add to your numbers & member base, because it seems all you've done is hold this view for so long but done relatively nothing about it apart from moan & attempt to insult some of your members

i think its generally accepted & it doesnt take a rocket scientist or even a website owner to understand that the majority of the problems & rifts caused on your site are by the actual members you are trying to atttract, the same members that fill out their details so they can promote themselves, these are the same guys that have all the info about each other & the industry & get their digs in to others behind a blank profile, now i'm not tryin to offend you with this post brian, but if you are offended, so what? you see respect is a 2 way street fella, try leading by example

I think Brian is being respectful and leading by example; its just that most anonomous accounts tend to broach very thorny subjects in a very provocative manner.
There are some who posters who are anonomous and yet DO NOT antagonise people with provocative posts....Hell, there are hundreds if not thousands of 'voyers' who just read and never post.
The majority of anonomous posters, do so with a very negative twist (as per the document Brian attatched). It does bring out the negative/bitchy/antagonistic side of peoples characters.

Although it would be a longer drawn out process to set up a psudo account with facebook account verification, some people have an insatible thirst for provocation.
- Verify via gym/regional representative
- Verify via facebook/e-mail/IP address
- Flag up suspitious activity
- Three-strikes and your out policy
- Zero tolerance policy

Alternatively, thinking radically, the more rules which are in place make this a more onorous task for the moderators (getting too involved and having to micro-manage). So it could be a bigger threat to have accounts stamped out immediately, with no recourse, no discussion and a blanket ban put on that IP address. This could then be symbolised with a big skull and cross-bones next to that forum name, deleting ALL their posts and highlighting the IP Address it was posted from. (The threat of being deleted could serve as a deterent). Better than a 'name-and-shame' and if its that much of an issue people can make their own enquiries to the IP location. Sure, this may be different for mobile phones, but this may just be a small percentage of posters.
Just some idea's.....

billybigconkers,

Requiring users to fill out their profile when they register means nothing if I don't have some verification process behind it.

I'm going to break up my post into sections, because these responses are getting bit long.

On Trolling

As for comparing my actions on this thread (re: the title) and trolling behavior, they are not the same. Trolls try to get a negative reaction out of of people for the sake of entertainment. I, on the other hand, tried to get the attention of people for the sake of conversation.

I also agree with what the title says. I do think anonymous accounts are cowardly, for the most part. Unlike troll behavior, I'm not just saying it and chuckling to myself quietly after people respond. I'm saying it and giving reasons for my viewpoints while continuing the conversation. Calling a certain behavior cowardly is more controversial than it is insulting, and I'm not adding any additional insults to the fray.

Suspicion and Identities

Here's a big point I want to make. Your last post is where I would start to suspect you as being someone's alias account, being that you went out of your way to illustrate yourself as a gray haired old man who barely understands the internet, yet you're very opinionated about online communities. You're more likely to be 29 years old and you've probably been banned from Ax a few times in the past. In looking at your account, you connect to Ax from a lot of places. You either travel a lot or multiple people are using your account.

If I knew your identity, even if you were a "nobody" like me, I could at least clear away any suspicions. Just simply knowing who you are, even if you're nobody special, helps to build trust that there are no ulterior motives at play.

Why Now?

The reason why I haven't implemented verified accounts yet is that it is a huge task to take on. I knew that back in 2004. Since then, a lot of things have changed. I've actually picked up knowledge about building websites over the past 6-7 years and I'm a web developer now by trade.

Earlier this year, I finished a successful Ax redesign and implemented various features without help from Andras, who originally programmed the Ax forum. I also recently moved Ax to a new server without any assistance. I've studied the Ax codebase where I can actually implement features on my own. This might not sound like a big deal to you guys, but it's actually a huge deal for Ax's future. The site can grow now, when I have time available to work on it.

On Social Networks

In the internet world, there is a shift toward people interacting under their own identities due to social networks such as LinkedIn (for business) and Facebook (for everything else). In those social networks, your grow your friends list by connecting with people who know your identity. I see things moving more in this direction.

To put it simply, a lot has changed since 2004 and verified accounts might be a possibility now. It's not a perfect concept. I do outline some cons to it in that thread I mentioned. It is risky. But the potential benefits from it are largely uncharted territory.

Offending People and Consequences

billybigconkers wrote: "now i'm not tryin to offend you with this post brian, but if you are offended, so what?"

Exactly. So what? On Ax, as an anonymous account, you can be as offensive as you can get away with and there's little to no consequence for you. If I knew your identity, then I could at least tie your words to that identity.

I'm a Nobody

As you mentioned before, I am a nobody. I'm just some guy from Louisville, Kentucky who happened to get into martial arts and build a website that people liked. But at least everyone knows when I'm speaking that it's my words they are reading, those of "Brian Ritchie". You know that I'm not an alias account for someone else. If I'm an asshole on here, then you can associate that behavior with my identity. If I don't like that, then the only options I have are to change my behavior or leave.

But really, if you are a nobody (like I am), then what would you have to lose by tying your account to your identity? Unless there is an agenda involved, I don't see much of a downside.

Comparing the Ax Forum to Real World

Ax is an online community with a purpose to be a communication tool for the MT/KB community. It's not a "pass the time fun-forum" like a lot of forums out there. It is intended to be an extension of the real world.

You compared it to meeting someone on the street and requiring them to wear a sandwich board with their details before you talk to them. I don't think that's a good comparison. It's more equivalent to a convention where you have a nametag, and when you talk to people, you introduce yourself. Others introduce you to their friends or associates. You explain a little about yourself and tell people where you are from.

In those scenarios, you can't get away with being an asshole for very long, or else people start to associate that with you and they stop talking to you. Eventually, if it continues, you stop being let in to the convention.

Anonymous accounts are more like... if everyone on the street wore masks. Sure, there would be some nice people, but occasionally someone would throw a rock at your head, but you don't even know who did it or why, and there's nothing you can do about it. I think that means that everyone needs to take off their masks, including the nice, innocent anonymous people.

brian, perhaps you're more interested in starting a clique or cult than an open discussion board, all you've done here is try to be offensive & make assumptions, you've suggested i'm dishonest, cowardly & a trouble maker thats been banned in the past etc & for what? to get me to bite & debate with you?

you feel that because you're name is attached to the comments that it makes you brave? like i said, i dont know you from adam, the name brian richie could be made up for all i know, you're the other side of the world in louisville talking shit about me & at me from behind a screen yet you think you're actual name next to your post makes you credible or brave?

it's good for yourself that you're content being considered an arsehole but it's hardly something to wear with pride like a badge of honour, yet you seem to think it is, potentially you've either some sort of screw loose(who cares?), an individual with an enthusiasm for being abrasive, just for fun or how did you say it? to start a conversation? or you've just never had a really good punch on the nose, perhaps you have? & that's why you act like this behind a screen?

with regard to my anonymity, here's some personal information, with my family name there's probably less than a handful of my family with the same surname in the uk, there might be a few more in europe but not many, i was also the victim of identity fraud/theft 7/8 years ago & was bumped for close to £1k, so my name isn't smith, jones, brown etc where even by posting my actual name i still retain some form of anonymity, i don't know a lot about the internet, therefore i try my best to protect my identity for my own personal security, i'm not scared of anybody pal especially anybody on here, why should i be? its as simple as that

now would i trust somebody such as yourself with my personal information?, probably not, because you're already sharing pubclicly what little information that you do know about me & also making public assumptions about me, i've not really had any grief on here, nor did i have a bad word to say about yourself until you made these assumptions about me, there's plenty of your types in the uk, it doesnt mean you're brave it says more about how you've been brought up & what you think you can get away with & from my experience with this type of person when they do get a slap they usually whine about how its an over reaction & how they're entitled to act like numpties

by putting my personal information up here i'm then more likely to take things more personally & potentially being wound up & for what? because somebody with a personality disorder or just ejits that think its a laugh to insult people want to entertain themselves? the amount of shit on here is enough to put anybody off, i mean i've read about ax members family being slagged off, phone calls at all hours, bullying, gun threats etc etc

you've annoyed me with some of your assumptions & comments brian, & i dont even have my real info up here, i dont believe & i've had you confirm this that it would make the blind bit of difference if my name was genuine or not...as you say you only want verified members that are known in the community, so thats more of a clique or a cult & you think you can be as offensive as you see fit as long as you converse afterwards

the problem with your site is a minority of the actual members you wish to retain, the same members that have filled in their id's yet make another id to harrass or antagonise other members, yet it suits you to point the finger at me or people in a similar position as myself, there's a minority of goons on here & i too would like to know who they are, i try to be courteous to most on this site & most of my posts are wishing people the best of luck, if i was aware that some of the people i'm sending regards to acted like ejits then i'd be less likely to offer words of support in the future, in other words they'd lose a fan here, & i'm a nobody so perhaps my views are irrelevant but if there wasnt a degree of truth in what i was saying then you'd see these business owners & fighters talking tripe under their real names rather than signing up again to harrass & annoy with anonymity


i would have suggested that perhaps by taking a nominal payment for access you'd have the verficiation you needed, however after sharing what little info you know about me i dont believe you should be trusted with too much personal information, after all, you're proud of being an arsehole & would probably think you could get away with it because you're name is next to your post & you state where you're from, i'm hardly gonna fly over to the states & pay you a visit, i wouldnt even get a visa for starters but why should i be made to feel like i want to see you face to face just because you seem to think you're abrasive personality has some sort of endearing quality, like i say you've either not been taught to keep your negative assumptions to yourself or you've never had a good punch in the face...perhaps its even because you've done some martial arts & think that you can talk how u like

i believe people that do share their information & are then insulted by members are partly responsible for sharing their own details, it doesnt excuse the behavior of those trying to annoy & insult them but a certain level of responsibility has to be taken by the people that have shared this information & made themselves vulnerable

i dont understand the internet to the same level as somebody like yourself or many others, i imagine there's millions of young teens that know loads more than myself, i was on the net back in 1997 & used it more as a resource for information & occasional chats in yahoo, i then travelled for a good few years & hardly used the internet at all, i missed out on being part of this facebook generation as i wasnt sat behind a screen to embrace it when it took off, in the past few years i've posted on a couple of forums... mainly boxing forums & a few others but i consider myself a relative novice, the forums i've posted on have been mostly members with nicknames rather than actual names but i still attach somebody as a numpty to a nickname if their behavior fits, i've never really felt the need to know all the in's & outs of who somebody is

i'm close to 31, not that old but i've had a hard life & feel my age & am getting more grey by the day, i might be 100% grey by my mid 30's so it feels daft trying to use the lingo that i may have been more likely to adopt had i been 14/15 , i've never been banned from your forum, i've never even had a warning for my behavior, i dont feel i've previously acted in a manner that would warrent such a warning, if you feel my response to you deserves such then that's your call

as for my ip address changing? like i say i dont know the ins & outs but i have moved address since being a member here & at my new address i've switched broadband providers, i dont think i've posted on here when i've been at friends houses, i may have posted from thailand or spain but i cant remember now, if i had it would have been years ago, perhaps some of that can identify where my ip address has changed but again i dont know enough about it, but it says more about you & how you think, that rather than look for a simple explanation you look for something more sinister & then feel that you've some sort of gotcha moment to expose me, after all you're all the way over the other side of the world acting like this & thinking you're brave, if you had handled yourself a little better & hadnt posted what little information you did know about me on the forums along with your assumptions then i may have been inclined or baited to post up some of my information or at the very least send you a pm about who i am, it wouldnt make a difference, as i explained i'm nobody in this scene, just a guy that's done a bit of training, stayed in thailand a couple of years that has an interest in muay & thailand

however if you feel you can share my other usernames? with a verified i.d as you suspect then go for it, again i dont understand a lot but i'm guessing 1 of these ip addresses that i've commented from would 100% match up with some verifed member, if you can match it up, go for it, but i know myself & i know thats not the case

my comments about a sandwich board displaying personal information were more about facebook than here, so if you're site is all about fighters & gyms & only this then that's fine & i guess i am in the wrong place & i hold my hands up to that, it has opened my eyes being on here though, there's some really nice people in the community but theres a small group of numpties too with some back stabbing & lots of politics that mostly fly over my head, from my point of view it hasnt been a complete waste of time, i'm a little wiser about the industry & sport that i have an interest in, i've trained a wee bit at a uk gym & met a numpty or 2 but most of the little training ive done has been in thailand so perhaps i've just been lucky & met some decent people over there or just met people when they've been on their best behavior, i've only met a couple of ejits that were slagging of thais & thailand when actually training at a thai camp & that was a couple of yanks at sityodtong, but it seems there's a few self serving types in the sport that share their negative views on thais in general, so it's been an eye opener

my comments about, so what if you were offended wasn't too hard to join the dots, i dont think you sat there & thought out a way of addressing the situation without being contraversial & offensive, hey it's how you like to debate, good for you but i only tend to act/respond like this when i'm annoyed & its not my general manner

best wishes & i'm sorry to anybody this post may offend even if its just because its too long haha

all the best

Brian, you seem to assume everyone who wishes to remain anonymous has bad intentions. Some do, agreed, but to make such a sweeping statement is ridiculous. An opinion from an individual is as good as any other, you have to judge their merit and intent on an individual basis.
Someone could join AX, make up a fictional account profile, and you would give their opinions more "credit" than someone who is anonymous???? That's crazy. How do you know i am who my profile says i am?

I can understand where Brian is coming from as I have been on Ax since about 1998. Probably 9/10, I would maybe even go as far as saying 99% of anonomous posters tend to be trolling and/or have ulterior motives.
I dare say, if it wasnt a problem, the thread wouldnt have even been created in the first place. Kudos for bringing this matter to everyones attension and addressing issues which are going to improve the quality and value of Ax.

To be fair 'billybigconkers' has put togeter a decent arguement, and given a reason for his defensiveness. As far as maintaining the quality of the site, I think your post may have touched on a few valid points, but how would you suggest verification/validation of usernames be certified?

noi, i agree that the anonymous troublmakers are a problem, its harrassment & a form of cyber bullying & can take away the fun of being part of the forum for many

the ball really is in brian's court, i'll respect his decision as it's his site to do as he pleases, i've only been annoyed & responded to some of the things thrown my way, most of the time i ignore the comments aimed at annons as i just felt those comments were referring to the troublemakers, tbh i can see how my nickname might appear like im trying to be offensive or gie it the big un, but i then hoped my behavior would show that i wasnt, i did sign up after a few beers & i think my first post was a fill the captions to a photo, i think you were in the photo but i didnt know what u looked like, had only read good reports about your name though & did know you came from a world class gym & while i'm a novvice & a nobody i was singing the praises of bad co & liam harrison anywhere i went 6+ years ago whenever the subject of farang boxers came up, i even sang the praises of bad co & liam harrison to the uk gym that i went to...so ive had nothing but respect for you guys for a long time & with hindight i wouldnt have signed up with this username just my first name, which isnt even billy haha


if brian kept the members as they are & as phil suggested issue a warning 1st to calm down if the person is out of line & if the behavior continued then a ban along with the ip address being banned, or perhaps change the membership so that new members have to be sworn in on a referal, whoever refers the new members is jointly responsible for what that person says & their actions, in other words dont refer somebody that you wouldnt want running their mouths & being offenseive at the risk of both members being banned, another option is a nominal fee, never used paypal but 50p or £1 or somthing like that & the same paypal account can only be used the once..i dont know if any of that's possible??
but these decisions are all down to brian as the owner, i never had a problem with anything he wanted to do with his site i just didnt like the assumptions he was making about me

all the best

novvice---novice haha

No probs mate. Fair do's :)

Good post Billy but it`s made me eyes go really funny, I`m seeing stripes everywhere!

billybigconkers i dont think i have ever seen you write anything bad. that was a really good post. much respect to you.

DanUK wrote "Brian, you seem to assume everyone who wishes to remain anonymous has bad intentions. "

NO.

Is that clear enough? I already explained that. I think the majority of them demonstrate bad behavior, but even the ones that do not have bad intentions are having a negative effect on the forum without realizing it. I'm trying to give examples of how that works.

billybigconkers,

If you truly are not experienced in online forums, one of the first things that you need to know is that the TONE of a person's post is often easy to misinterpret. It happens very often. You may think that I'm seething at the mouth and cackling as I'm writing my posts here, but I'm not. I'm just sitting here typing out my points as thoroughly as I can.

That said, your reply was highly over-reactive. If you look back, you might see I didn't actually make any accusations of you. Really, scroll up and re-read it. If I was certain that you were an alias account, I would have suspended your account already and I wouldn't be having this conversation with you.

Rather, what I was doing was giving an example of the type of speculation that surrounds anonymous accounts on forums. People can very quickly (and justifiably) question the motives of an anonymous poster. That is how anonymity sculpts the conversation even when a person could very well be innocent of ulterior motives.

billybigconkers wrote: "you're the other side of the world in louisville talking shit about me"

Absolutely not. I didn't talk shit about you once. That is a ridiculous assertion. So far, we've been having a very reasonable conversation until your post.

billybigconkers wrote: "you feel that because you're name is attached to the comments that it makes you brave?"

I don't know if brave is the word I would use. I personally don't think it's very dangerous to let your identity be known. I would say it's responsible. Non-anonymous people are being responsible by letting people know who they are (even if they are nobody special). They are not afraid of sharing a small bit of information about who they are for the benefit of the community. In this thread, I'm trying to explain reasons why that benefits the community.

I've known people who have suffered from identity theft. My parents went through that in 2009. Identity theft comes mostly from people stealing other people's mail, intercepting someone's credit card information or hacking into someone's e-mail account. Identity theft doesn't happen from someone posting their real name and city in their user profile, which is what I'm talking about here.

Your long post illustrates one of the major issues that I've mentioned earlier on this thread. If YOU, some anonymous guy, are so easily offended by what appeared to you to be an accusation, then how do you think that fighters feel as they get accused and battered constantly by all sorts of random people? How do you think you would handle it if you were a fighter? Who knows, maybe you are a fighter and you're anonymous for that very reason, to not take flack from people.

billybigconkers wrote: "but it says more about you & how you think, that rather than look for a simple explanation you look for something more sinister"

The way that I think and interpret people's behavior on here (especially with respect to anonymous accounts) is based on years of moderation experience. If you saw things from my perspective, if you actually did Ax moderation for even a year, you would understand what really goes on with anonymous accounts. That type of behavior is real, not make believe. There has been a lot of deplorable behavior behind anonymous accounts. There are some very sneaky, manipulative, backstabbing, attacking, self-serving and immature individuals within the UK fight community. I've seen it. I've dealt with it.

billybigconkers wrote: "it's good for yourself that you're content being considered an arsehole but it's hardly something to wear with pride like a badge of honour, yet you seem to think it is, potentially you've either some sort of screw loose(who cares?), an individual with an enthusiasm for being abrasive, just for fun or how did you say it? to start a conversation? or you've just never had a really good punch on the nose, perhaps you have? & that's why you act like this behind a screen?"

Now this is just lashing out. You basically just called me an asshole. I don't consider myself an asshole and I don't know where you got that idea, nor am I proud to be one. It's unfortunate that you feel the need to characterize me in this way. The only thing controversial I said on this thread is calling anonymous users cowardly. I also gave supporting reasons.

I always aspire to be honest and direct. It takes a lot of effort to do that. The result can be extremely valuable in conversations, just getting right to the point of a matter. I try to be careful with my words, but as I get older, I feel less of a need to defend myself. I guess I've always had that personality trait to some degree, but it's increasing as I get older.

Here is something that should be made clear: When you come to Ax, you are coming to my house. Ax is like a big party, or a convention where I try to provide a place for the fight community to interact. People come here and act like they have the right to do anything they want. They don't. I've put over a decade worth of work into this place. You want to talk about trust? I'm trusting each and every one of you to come here and act responsibly, even though some of you can't be bothered to tell everyone your name or location. Let me ask you, would you throw a party at your house where random people show up from the street wearing masks and 90% of them stirring trouble? If you tell everybody they can't wear a mask, is that being unfair to the 10% who weren't hurting anybody? I don't think so.

This is where I think website communities are evolving. People are learning that anonymity was a fun attraction for the internet in the beginning, but it clearly brings out the worst in people and it doesn't mimic any real-world human interaction. This website has a stated purpose. It's not here for mere entertainment. If anything useful is going to be done here, people need to trust other people.

I may be some random guy from the land of KFC, but you can trust AT LEAST that I am Brian Ritchie and I don't have ulterior motives. My history on this site, which is now tied to my identity, supports that.

Brian, i dont know who you are, you could be anyone. Your identity though is irreleavnt. A reasoned point of view, and back up evidence gives more credabilty than a "name".

It's not about giving credibility to the points being made. The points made in a conversation still have to hold up on their own, regardless of who is saying them. Identity in online discussion has more to do with trust than credibility. My identity doesn't add credibility to my statements at all when it comes to fight discussion.

But my identity does build trust. Even though I'm a "nobody", people know who I am or, as importantly, who I'm not. That's very valuable in online conversations where criticisms are thrown around. The question of ulterior motives is reduced heavily so there becomes more focus on the actual content of the discussion.

When I make a comment about a fight, gym or fighter, nobody questions if I'm actually an alias account for that fighter, someone from their gym, or someone from a competing gym or promotion. If I were one of those people, that would matter in the discussion. But since I'm definitely not one of those, then ulterior motives are pulled away from the discussion.

Here's another point. If Identities are known, anonymous people are also less likely to try to add credibility to their statements by saying they are a fighter or trainer, or exaggerating their fight record. This happens every so often on all fight forums. People are less likely to lie about their background if other people can look it up. I can't count how many times I've seen anonymous posters do this. And even if they aren't lying about their background, people will assume they are lying if their identity is hidden.

So what is so great about anonymity? You may think it causes more focus on the points than the person making them, but actually the opposite is true. With anonymity, there is more focus on their identity in the discussion since there is no trust there. Anonymity forms a big crater in the middle of many online conversations, creating a massive distraction from the topic at hand.

I used to actually think like you do now. Back when I was about 22 years old, a couple of my friends and I started a website where we wrote articles about MMA under anonymous names. We got a lot of attention from people on fight forums for our articles, but the conversation was mostly about our identities. We thought we were being really slick by making the point that our identities didn't matter, only our points did. We were very naive. The truth is that anonymity actually took attention away from our points.

If someone's points are good, then why not make them under their real name? Anonymity is surely not adding anything of value. If so, then what is it? Anonymity fuels distrust and allows people to hide bias and agenda. I think the main reason why people want to use an anonymous account is to avoid personal attacks, thus the title of this thread.

What a long-winded thread about (in the big scheme of things) NOTHING !!!
Brian, its your site, why not either do something about the constant moaning you are doing, or put up with it ???

Man, I already answered that, twice.

If you're not gonna read what I wrote, then why bother asking the question? You just said this thread is long-winded, and now you're asking me to repeat myself?

Just a question.

Worked in a large corporation H/Office canteen. We had a "suggestions" book. The negative insulting anonymous comments were laughed at.
The ones with a contact name and contact details would always be followed up, regardless of content.

That's a question?

:-)

It`s one of those special statement questions! :)

No, sorry. Just felt the urge to put something down!

Didn't realise it was questions only?

Don't chastise me I am a northerner!

Fatta, just jesting mate, it`s cos you said you had a question but then just told us all something instead of asking anything!

Yours is a good point and very relevant to how many feel I reckon, including myself.

I had consumed some vodka, hence the lack of a question!

My brain packed in towards the end of the post!

lol

lol




(and that's the first thing i said in years as i lost my password lol)

ok prove its you how do you say lol in Italian?

anonymous is an unrealistic concept anyway

alcoholics anonymous, first thing everyone does is tell you their name.

Pat, are you still roaming the happy free street of singapore?
how are you doing bro?

back on this topic my opinion is that at times to be anonymous on a forum, especially if you are just starting out is normal and to be expected.

I guess though that comes a time especially if you are voicing your opinions a lot there should be some control over someone's identity....
maybe the right approach is to allow only a certain number of anonymous posts per account, after which you fully register or your account essentially expires.

another more simplistic way is to ignore stupid comment and focus on the contructive/reasonable posts, which is what is been done on this site for ever....apart from some memorable threads!

hi all! go to be back!

yes still here mate trying to keep cool and sane. you know what it's like in the build up to CNY...

It certainly has changed over the years.

I find anon posters no problem when the conversation is fair and relevant. When the slagging starts thats when I get pissed and feel the poster is a coward.

I am not sure there is a perfect solution to this problem.

There are assholes that use thier name as well.

Alias or double account should be zero tolerance.

The world today is in flux as our new technoligies are as well.

Ax will continue to change, hopefully its membership will as well.

Do I wish it could be like it was, yes. Will it no, there is also the possibility of it getting better.

Seems like being a mod is a tough job, but what the hell, balance is hard for us humans.

There should be a breathalizer test before posting.lol
A minimum age as well.