Daitan Jackson v Jamal Wahib Showdown 11 on P4

Nice work by Daiton ,especially rounds 4 and 5.

Jamals hands looked dangerous tho

Please explain me how can win Jackson ?????????????

What a fucking decision ?????????


It's a robbery

The NEW world champion is a champion who is never dangeroux and a champion who move back during 5 rounds !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just low kick...without power

No knees...

No Elbows...

Afraid about clinch....

Hurt to the face, the body and the legs...

Great job judges...Very honest and profesional...

Daiton clearly won rounds 4 and 5 judging by that video, therefore wins the fight.

Philippe if thats what you think then you obviously don't know how to score muay thai. Come back when you can post an educated opinion.

Anybody know when the other fights will be on there?

Ricky... How can I tell you ?

You don't know Muay Thai. Or explain me...I would like to have your explications

Muay Thai = Knees + Elbows + Kicks + Clinch + "Takedown" + Punches

So can you tell me how many elbows, knees, punches, clinches and takedowns done Jackson ?

How many for Wahib ?

besides we are not in amateur rules. Jackson kiked more but not with power not with SUCESS !

If Jackson was dangerous he hurt Wahib ! Wahib never move back !

jackson should be counted in 2nd round.

bad job by Judges and referee

real specialists (not like you) from UK, Germany, Italy, Belgium, Holland, Japan, France, Switzerland, USA... say that Jamal Wahib won without problem.

You must be honest

which specialists say that?who are they.Especially the UK ones?!

You had 3 'specialist' experienced muay thai judges at ringside and you had without a doubt the UK's best referee in the ring who made an instant decision that Jackson went down due to lack of balance not because of the effect of the punch! Please send this bideo to Thailand if you are so sure you won! Any official at Lumpinee or Raja will give you the exact same decision that was annouced after the fight! Jamal only scored well with knees in round 2 after that there wasn't anything to tell the two fighters apart in the clinch. You say how Jackson didn't land with success? Please go back and watch how often Jackson was countering Jamal's boxing by landing left body kicks in round 3, 4 and 5. And if you still can't see that than a visit to specsavers is in order! I am being honest I wouldn't come on here to be biased and have never met or spoke to Daitan and don't know him personally so I do not favour either fighter!

just watched it,first round ten each but a tick to daiton stronger kicks,rd 2 other lad stronger boxing but the punch that daiton went down with was a combination of punch connection and daitn being of balance so 10 9 rd 3 level but a tick to daiton stronger kicks,rd 4 definately daitons so 10 9 rd 5 closer than rd 4 but still daitons rd,again 10 9 so in my oppinion daiton by 1 point,thats how i would have scored it.but then again people say i cant grasp what scores in thai and what doesnt

John mate, there is nowt wrong with that analysis

i always thought that muay thai is scored on effect not assumed effect i know body kicks score high due to assumed effect but when boxing is showing effect surely it should score higher than a body kick which effect is assumed,
anyway it was a good fight, the decision wont be changed so no point in every1 continuing to complain about it
get a rematch

its fights like this that are the reason i dont get involved in muay thai scoring haha, leave it up to the qualified judging team, if you feel hard done by just knock the guy out in the rematch lol.

if the french guy would of thrown few more kicks in the fifth on the end of hes punches he would of won that all day long, but he didnt so, you live n learn!

close fight daitan still won it tho...and if jamals team were a bit more valiant in defeat then perhaps a rematch would be called for but after there reaction to getting beat and all the public insults theyve made to respected members of the thai boxing community who wants to even think about that...besides he might not want a rematch after jose deals with him...peace..

i watched it and I can't see how the French team they won? Daiton clearly deserved the win... but i'm probably biased and clueless like everyone else on here, Phillipe?

For me it's simple. Daitan's kicks had more of an effect and landed cleaner than Jamal's punches. From the video it's a bit difficult to see if it was the punch or a loss of balance that caused the knockdown. Either way, Daitan was straight back up so it clearly had no effect so shouldn't have been counted.

It's always hard to lose but you must accept the decision. If you got a problem with it then follow the official protocol, don't come on here bitching about it. It's clear to me that you have misunderstood the scoring in Muay Thai....seeing as you can't even fight with elbows in France that doesn't surprise me as you've probably had to adapt your scoring system to suit. I think Jamal would do much better under K1 rules and I'm looking forward to seeing the outcome of his fight with Craig Jose.

Cheers for posting the vid Mel

The famous British fair play ....!!!!

I don't understand, we have now more than 300 people from all over the world who are disagree with this sad decision.

You can tell what you want but the true is that Wahib won the fight.

The fight was in Pro Rules or Amateur rules ? Or maybe in Junior Rules ?

Ok Jackson use more kicks thant Wahib. Ok I can't lie.

BUT !

What are the technicals in Muay Thai ? Only kicks ?

You must consider : punches, kicks, knees, cminches, take downs, elbows.

You must ALSO consider : strategy, physical condition, power, if you do the fight if you're dominant

Excepted kicks (...Jackson was never dangerous with kicks because Wahib always move forward...great power of Jackson !!!! Ah)

Jamal Wahib dominated all the technicals + power + danger + move forward !

BESIDES : Jackson should be counted in 2nd round !!!!!!!
THEN : Jackson was scared !

Mistake from the referee.

Mistake from judges

We are not in Amateur rules. They are not children.

So the decision is a scandal, is a big mistake, is a big robbery.

We accepted to have 3 English judges + 1 English referee and Wahib done the fight. Won the fight.

It's a shame

When you are stolen. You must react.

I watched the fight dude. You lost fair and square. Say what you want about how I know nothing and I'm wrong but still doesn't change the fact that you lost. I think you lost, the majority of people who have see the fight think you lost but more importantly the judges thought your man lost.

Suck it up and take it like a man.

Aren't you bored yet Phillipe?? Here is the facts...Daitan won the end no conspiracy just that and stop going on when if you loved Jamal that much you'd have come over as from starting to slate us as a nation saying we are unfair and saying Daitan was scared??? In other words grow a pair as old jezza would say and except it because no matter what you write it's still the same "Daitan Jackson world champion" and that's all there is xx

Bit rich to go on about the British fair play. Don't you need a knock-out to win in France? Pretty sure their has been more scandals in France with bullshit decisions than the U.K. Ask for the rematch and teach your boy how to score in a Muay Thai fight.

Daitans a real sound guy works hard and deserves it. people shouldnt try to take away from such an achievement by being negative. the fact is that on the night he won. new world champion. well done Daitan .

I refereed this particular fight and as those who have refereed will appreciate, it can be difficult to see who wins when focusing on making sure the fight flows and breaking the boxers appropriately. I had a feeling of who won on the night but always try to reserve judgement until I have watched a fight as a judge rather than as a spectator or ring referee. I have now had the chance to watch the very clear video kindly provided by P4TV.

As number of people have said correctly on here Jamal was winning early in the fight but was overtaken by Daitan in round 4, a lead that was maintained in round 5. There is no requirement to move forward to win in Muay Thai or to use all weapons. Daitan's continuous body kicks landing on target (particularly in round 4) made it a clear win for him in the end.

I am English, and am well aware of possible unconscious and in-group biases in making judgment decisions, so I decided to ask a Thai judge of many years experience at Bangkok stadiums to also give their verdict on the fight. They congratulated the judges saying it was a correct decision and that Daitan won clearly enough. This is how Muay Thai is scored professionally and had this fight been judged in Thailand by top stadium judges it would have been the same results. Well done to Daitan and also well done to the judges.

Judging is not an easy job, you always have to upset someone. All three judges acted professionally and gave consistent decisions all night. Giving the correct decision is not the same as giving the most popular decision.

Thanks Tony x

I was waiting for your input Tony and had a feeling you would be sending this over to Thailand for assessment. As we all had no doubt that Daitan won it must still be now even better for him to be acknowledged his win by top officials in Thailand. However, I have no doubt in my mind that Philippe will now treat us to another tirade of:
' how can Daitan win? he scared, move backwards, only kick, not powerful, should be counted in round 1, you wrong, referee wrong, judges wrong, Thailand wrong, not professional, not honest..........ad infinitum'
And of course there are also those that say we shouldn't score 'Muay Thai' with 'Muay Thai rules and scoring!'....... Humble pie tastes nice with a sprinkling of humility.
I am never in any doubt that outside of Thailand we have some of the best officials in the World. Thank you for your input Tony and for Thailand officials input too.

Would say the judging in the U.K is the best and fairest outside of Thailand. When I have attended shows with foreign opposition fighting British opponents, not once have I seen a home town decision. Well done judges, and Daitan.

I have been in Thailand now nearly three years wathced hundreds of fights here, Daitan won the fight MUAYTHAIS scoring!! i also showed some of my trainers for there verdict and all said same thing round 4 n 5 daitan scored very well. to win the fight!

Firstly i have no issue with the decision. Let that be clear. However; i feel its valid to recognise where to controversy stems from the French perspective.

Body kicks are assumed to score even if they show no effect. Whereas boxing is required to show effect at all times. In the last two rounds Jamil focussed upon his admittedly effective boxing and just a handful of knees. Mr jackson was indeed moved backwards but was countering with 'scoring' body kicks. Had Jamil balanced out his boxing with more knees the outcome may have swung in his favour. He did not however and nor therefore did the decision swing in his favour.

All that said i feel there is an inherent difficulty in cross discipline competition where at least one party is not fully briefed upon the rules they are expected to compete under. on this occasion resulting in negative publicity for a great fight/show.

And touching upon the knock down. Flash or otherwise. The decision rests with the referee. Im not aware of any guidelines as to the determination period on canvass before a count if at all is started..Tony made a judgement as referee and right or wrong in any one elses opinion it stands.

Assumed to score even with no effect?

After 4 rounds the body kicks had not slowed down Jamal so why would you regard those as being effective?

the english fighter won this fight easely.
if this fight was in thailand maybe same judgement and scored 47/49.
the french fighter forward all the fight but not means he won the fight:
not a thai style attitude,lost lot of time his balance,take the ropes with hands,never use body kicks,never block body kicks and low kicks...and no make a large difference in clinch.thaiboxing isn't the samething of boxing or kick boxing.

Body kicks are assumed to score even if they show no effect. That is correct. Not my idea and i dont agree its a good rule. accordingly I fully accept and appreciate the argument that says if a fighter were to walk through a body kick it clearly had no effect and therefore did not score. However; thats not what the ruling on body kicks says. And i have no desire to lobby a change on the rules.

If the body kicks needed to show effect then by that rational the decision wasnt that clear.

If you want to discuss symantics then some of the body shots landed on the upper arm and not cleanly upon the body and there in lies nother argument to debate on scoring issues.

However; as the system stands currently the result although very close is appropriate to the rules in play.

sorry but in thailand when you forward all the time means you lose.when you won only you protect your points.the french fighter don't know if he's winner or loser.only for that in thailand the decision is for the oponent.

On all the Muay Thai rules that are listed on the Internet nowhere does it state that a body kick is PRESUMED to have effect?

so be it. but thats the acknowledged fact. if you wish to take it further please do so. i will support your efforts as i feel all techniques ought to show effect. im just offering you an insight into why daiton took the decision on a close fight. and that is because he delivered scoring body kicks before, during and after each exchange.

if you want by all means call me and chat or indeed more relevantly any of the officials at ring side (which i was not)and im sure they will enlighten you.

muaythai-tours GOOD POSTS AND FROM A FRENCH NATIONAL, GLAD SOMEONE KNOWS HOW THE SPORT WORKS.
REFEREE WAS SPOT ON.

I watch the fight like in thailand (not bcse I'm french or from other country)and the referees make a good job.this fight wasn't closed ... no robbery.

Thanks Muaythai-tours,most people on here know of your experience in Thailand and your opinion on this is valued:)

Daiton throws 3 body Kicks in total up until rnd 4 and one of those he's dropped with a left hook and Jamal is only slightly ahead is what your saying ?

He's thrown massive punches with body kicks on the end of a couple of the combinations!

At the end of rnd 2 he hits Daiton with 2 big Knees and breaks away to throw a big elbow!

Jamal dominates position in the ring for the 5rnds and ends up losing a fight because of a lead leg body kick scores that highly? What assumed effect would that cause anyone?

You can always win a fight off the back foot yes but surely you need to look at ease under the pressure of the forward fighter?

Hi,

well, generally the fight wasn't good for both fighters. I don't know what to say about the result because I'm not a judge. It's clear the result depended on how the fight was scored and, a lot of people already talked about it.
Anyhow, if we look at the fight without considering the result, here my feeling.
The French boxer looked aggressive and proud of his battle, but he's clearly not a top fighter for sure. Lack in his gard, unbalanced, uncoordinated, especially not able to change his way to fight when he noticed that it was may be not possible to win by KO. In fact, he showed one only thing: his plan was try to win for knockout in "anger" way until the end. This suggests any technical or tactical skills, but a lot of heart to put in the ring. However, that depends also on what your trainer is telling to you to do. Fair enough, this is the game. Everyone is free to decide how to fight or how to suggest to fight.
The English guy doesn't start the fight like a world champion would do and, also for him a lot of lack especially in relation to elbows and balance. However, his style was more "muay thai" but it doesn't mean it was better than the French guy. In final rounds he seems to fight thinking about scoring, differently from the opponent. That was may be clever considering the fight would have finished by points. I'm not sure the blows of the English guy were really effective but watching a video isn't the right way to establish blow effectiveness. We just can't do it, it's different from the live view.
Unfortunately, despite both fighters deserve honor and respect..this fight was more close to a class B fight than a professional one. At light of the fact it was a professional world championship fight, to be honest I don't know if one or the other really deserve a clear win...

Philippe, your posts are awesome! I hope Jamal fights in the UK again soon as you are great entertainment sir ;)

I think it's been established that Daiton scored intelligently on the back foot in the later stages of the fight to take the win as seen in Thailand loads. As someone said already, it's often the persuer that is behind and that's why he's chasing his opponent done at the end but if he's not scoring then he's not winning.

Tony as always stating the facts and the man knows his stuff. Congratulations to Jackson and its a real shame some people are trying to detract from his achievement as it takes dedication and skill to become a world champ!

Report PostTonyMyers
Posted: 2010-12-11 18:14:01
Sort of, all things being equal...but it is all relative...if a body kick moves an opponent it better than one than just lands. Equally, if the person kicking lands off balance after they kick and they get hit by a punch that moves them, the punch is more effective.

It is easier seen than described in words really...far less misunderstanding when people see concrete examples.

Tony does know his stuff your right Fensom!

Its easy to punch so for it to score it needs to show effect. Much harder to kick someone accross the body or arm so scores without needing to show effect. I think talking about 'assumed effect' is a bit misleading and over complicates it. Some people are getting their knickers in a twist about how its worded.

Jamal's punches showed great effect in rnds 1,2,3,5 so why would they not out score the lead body kicks thrown in rnd 4?

Many of the body kicks were thrown off balance so losing position.

He looked like he was chasing Daiton to knock him out with the effect the punches were showing not because he was behind on scorecards.

Report PostTonyMyers
Posted: 2010-12-09 15:05:54
When judging a Muay Thai fight, judges are judging the art of Muay Thai, attempting to determine the strongest competitor in terms of Muay Thai rather than a generic combat sport. As such, some techniques are considered important in demonstrating mastery, control and dominance in the art of Muay Thai.

Effectiveness is 'measured' or determined by the effect a technique has on an opponent...causing them to lose position (or balance), show pain or fear, rather than a subjective assessment of the power of the person delivering the technique

Although all weapons have the same potential to score, given all things being equal, kick and knee outscore punches and elbows (unless they result in an 8-count when they are equal. Why? well. in one of the interviews I conducted with a trainer of judges at Radjadamnern stadium, he said when considering an equally effective punch and body kick exchange, the body kick would win because "it is the logo of Muay Thai and a punch is international"

Explains very clearly. I was at the fight ringside. I had the french guy winning especially by end of round 2. His coach was very upbeat, by end of round 3 the French coach looked a lot less relaxed, in my opinion a good indication that it was no longer going all the frenches way. Once round 4 was over I new daitan was back in the game. He had clearly changed his strategy. Great tactics great win. Well done to daitan and the Salford team.

Thanks Kevin.

James, I realise that if you do not have a really clear understanding of scoring in Muay Thai it is possible to consider that Jamal won the fight. Nevertheless, while you may disagree on this decision, I am sure you and the judges would agree on the decisions of many fights (perhaps even most fights). However, particular fights, such as this one between Daitan and Jamal, tend to require more specialised judging knowledge or knowledge of Muay Thai gained from watching many fights in Thailand (as some of the people posting above have done and continue to do).

It is true that Jamal looked more aggressive during many periods in the fight and he did advance far more than Daitan, but neither of these things are used in scoring as such. Equally the term effect’, like other terms such as ‘aggression’, are subjective and when used in a general sense can mean a number of things. However, effect has a particular meaning in Muay Thai judging, one that is far easier to show using examples of than to describe in words. Just reading the wording of rules and associated scoring criteria it is not always possible to determine how the criteria are actually applied in practice.

While not used by judges as such, if you want a very loose guide to the relative weighting of techniques the one used by a top stadium fighter is a useful general rule of thumb. Duwao Kongudom suggested that all things being equal, he considers punches to be 1 point, low kicks 1 point, body kicks 3 points, and knee 3 points (with round knee 2 points).

As suggested in posts above, both a Thai judge and a number of Thai trainers have looked at the fight and all are of the opinion that the decision awarded by the judges was correct one. That is just the way the sport is scored. That said, I do applaud anyone tries to make sense of decisions, wants to understand why they were given and wishes to learn more about the sport. Nevertheless, when doing this it is worth bearing in mind that Muay Thai is not a generic fighting sport attempting to please martial artists from different disciplines, it is an art and sport with its own unique scoring criteria which has shaped by the culture in which it evolved. If you are confused by the scoring in the sport but are genuinely interested in how it is scored, I would recommend that you attend a Muay Thai judging course. Alternatively, take a look at:

http://muaythaijudging.com/

While still under construction, the site has some video footage of a judging seminar and a couple of example fights that make an attempt at explaining how fights are scored.

James, I realise that if you do not have a really clear understanding of scoring in Muay Thai it is possible to consider that Jamal won the fight. Nevertheless, while you may disagree on this decision, I am sure you and the judges would agree on the decisions of many fights (perhaps even most fights). However, particular fights, such as this one between Daitan and Jamal, tend to require more specialised judging knowledge or knowledge of Muay Thai gained from watching many fights in Thailand (as some of the people posting above have done and continue to do).

Tony I believe I have a good understanding of Muay Thai. Please could you direct me to a website which tells me a body kick is assumed to score effect so would score higher than boxing actually showing effect?

I actually thought the french guy won! But i have not taken a thai judging course so my opinion wont count! I dnt believe the second round knockdown shouldnt have been taken into consideration either jamal connected flush on the chin as daiton kicked,he was very strong boxing and continued to cause daiton trouble with his power, i would take a kick if i could land a big right which was obviously causing my opponent trouble,

James, I can't direct you to anywhere in particular that says that, other than articles I have written personally, which you perhaps will not consider to be that useful in this particular debate - although some have been published in Thailand. Actually, I would also assume the majority of Thai judges will say all techniques can score the same. However, what is done in practice is that particular targets and techniques are favoured. The application of unwritten rules in sport is not just limited to Muay Thai, a number of sports have a set of written rules of 'unwritten rules' or normative rules.

I interviewed a number of top Thai judges, experienced Thai trainers and top Thai boxers in Thailand over a period of years as part of a PhD study. They were very consistent in their responses and if they couldn't always explain exactly what they meant, they gave clear examples in actual fights. In his post above Kevin actually quotes a referee I interviewed, Wanchai Prowsee (who was voted best referee/judge at Rajadamnern in 2003) and trains judges at the stadium), he said when considering an equally effective punch and body kick exchange, the body kick would win because "it is the logo of Muay Thai and a punch is international".

The best evidence I can suggest is to watch lots Thai fights judged in Thailand. This particular fight between Daitan and Jamal is actually a great example of the emphasis on particular weapons in scoring, but given this fight is the 'bone of contention' I realise that is a circular argument. While not quite the same, there is another example of an aggressive puncher losing a world title fight in Thailand against kick and knee, this fight also illustrates the importance of particular techniques in determining the winner (this fight was judged by top Thai officials in Thailand).

http://muaythaijudging.com/fight-1.php

So what your saying is that people in the UK are doing Myers Thai not MUAY THAI.

i took the opportunity to chat with Tony last night to establish i had explained myself adequately. I was not present at the fight and have only the video footage to go on. Limited filming angle, poor lighting and an appreciable lack of sound audible as a blow finds its target.

As the referee on the evening Tony had a closer than ringside view of the action.

The body kicks swung the fight in Mr Jacksons favour.

Tony has attempted to explain as i myself have the assumption of effect. So really not much more to say.

my first post clearly stated that i agreed with the decision under the prevailing rules currently governing thai boxing competition. That does not detract from the fact i recognise that under a different set of rules the decision would be the same. And that is as they say 'the rub.

Sorry i meant that the decision may not be the same. Apologys.

I personally favour all techniques requiring to show effect to score. But i also want world peace, to secure lottery funding for my indepth research into Lap Dancing and win a Moto Gp race before im 50yrs old.....

James i appreciate your cander and blunt incisive questioning but Tony did not write the rules but simply explaining them as they currently stand.

I believe that all things being equal we all accept a round body kick or full on knee delivered to the torso would hurt like hell. But of course not all land clean. Not all find their target. And not all carry the fullest power of delivery. So we therefore; ASSUME they had effect.

When I'm training in Thailand I throw strong balanced body kicks on pads to cause effect!

I'm not taught to throw flick kicks so the judges assume they cause effect!

James, I have written about and studied judging in Thailand over a number of years which no doubt has had some influence on judging in the UK, but they are not my rules or my criteria. All I have tried to do make clear what is done in Thailand so the sport can develop here. I think we in the UK have been successful in improving the standard of Muay Thai, with many people contributing to this. I was particularly pleased when Saenchai and other Thai boxers said recently that judging in the UK is now similar to Thailand.

In this particular fight (Daitan v Jamal), Thai judges and people living and watching the sport in Thailand, who I have no direct links to or influence over, concurred with the decision made. This suggests to me we are at least on the 'same page' here with judging in Thailand. Rules in sport and their interpretation are dynamic and change over time, so who knows what the future will hold. Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

James, I can't agree more that strong effective body kicks score better than less effective kicks.

When you go to Thailand next show your trainers this fight and ask them who they think won.

How can your say they are not your rules yet you are unable to point me anywhere it states that a body kick 'assumes' to cause effect other than your own website.

I agree a body kick would score more than a punch if delivered with balanced technique causing damage, yet this isn't what we see in this fight.

Tony is a grown up and can defend himself. So i will avoid appearing as though im defending him as best i can. And as i agree with your point of view im well placed to offer a balanced point of view.

The understanding of a kicks assumed potential is not Tonys idea. Its how it is. And that may not sit well with you and indeed it doesnt me but rules is rules huh?

If it helps then as a for instance daitan landed ten of those kicks and Jamal one that buckled daitan the one would have out weighed the ten. Clear as mud then ha ha.
In fairness ive tried to explain Muay Thai stadium or otherwise scoring to first time audiences and not one has ever grasped it immediately.

Show me the rules that body kick scores more because of 'assumed' effect.

They are not my rules, in reality they are my interpretation of what Thai judges and Thai teachers have explained to me regarding the rules and their interpretation. These are often a direct translation of what they said. As for particular websites, I am not really sure why any website on the internet be any more valid an indictator of what actually happens than any other, mine included.

The best evidence you can have regarding this fight is for you to ask your Thai trainers, or find a stadium judge in Thailand and ask them to judge the fight. Better still also question them why they think Daitan won.

Direct quote from the Thai judge I asked to judge this fight who spoke in English: "...English boxer win clear by kick...round 4 big win not too close, French boxer not protect his body"

"Assumed effect" are not my words, that term has been used by others to rationalise the concept of effect and a body kick scoring well if it lands on target without causing a loss of position. How people choose to describe things is not really the issue for me, it is how they apply their knowledge to judge a fight consistently and appropriately that really counts.

James - Cornwall
Posted: 2012-06-22 05:23:47
When I'm training in Thailand I throw strong balanced body kicks on pads to cause effect!

I'm not taught to throw flick kicks so the judges assume they cause effect!

----------------


doubt you will get any of that from Tiger gym, you should listen to muaythai-tours he lives in thailand and his boxers fighting regularly in stadium

Liam R - I should listen to muaythai-tours because he lives in Thailand?

no, because he runs a gym, he is in the stadiums weekly probably for last 20+ years, his 2 sons have fought main bouts in stadium he knows the scoring bang on and is unbiased as he is french. showed this clip to a couple of thais one ex lumpini champ one ex number 1 raja both said english boxer won and not a close fight not difficult to score

James -Cornwall do you compete in Muay Thai? The reason I ask is that you clearly have a strong opinion regarding Muay Thai scoring and even when explanations are given clearly and concisely you remain on the same thread. If you compete regularly I would be concerned as to your interpretation of the rules. This is meant not as a criticism against you but more to get an understanding of your thought process on Muay Thai as a sport, so I am only trying to gauge where you are coming from in order to offer you better insight.
SHAUN

Liam R I agree it's not difficult to score.

Judging this fight with the rules that are written Jamal wins!

Parttimefanatic - You shouldn't need to go on a judging course to understand who won the fight! It's supposed to be simple to work out yet no one can put it into words!

I'm not disagreeing that a good balanced body kick in reply to boxing scores higher but that is not what happened in this fight.

It seems to be in the UK at the moment if your throw your leg up unbalanced with no technique at all you still get scored massively compared to a solid punch,elbow or knee!

To be honest i think the only kick which looked like it showed effect was the sly one at start of round 3 or 4 when jamal was touching gloves.

Parttimefanatic I couldn't agree more chief.

In the interests of a balanced argument. If you proposed your objection of the result along the lines of how youve just suggested there then undoutedly you could find greater favour.

So you now (although possibly always) accept that a well balanced kick even one that possibly does not clearly show effect scores higher than boxing. Your objection lies therefore; in the fact the kicks in your opinion lacked any merit save for the fact they were thrown in the direction of the opponent with frequency. and that as again in your opinion they appeared poorly executed and not from a balanced stance, appearing to have no effect then they ought not be assumed to have scoring potential.

Have i nailed your objection?

I think a well balanced body kick does score well likewise so do boxing combinations when showing effect.

My argument is that you can't score a body kick that is 'assumed' to have effect and not score boxing when it is having such an effect like what seems to be happening in the UK at the minute!

Most of the points about this fight have been covered but I will add a couple of things

I've NEVER had a problem expelling thai scoring to anyone who wanted to learn, including professional boxers, trainers and promoters who already had a pre conceived idea of how a combat sport should be judged. If you are open and willing to learn its easier and more straight forward than other combat sports. The reality is some people just do not want to learn, or even do know how it works but don't agree so just keep saying its to complicated, no one gets it etc.

Sanchi said to me personally that English officials are now as good as in Thailand, along with other members of his team and also several other foreign visiting teams who have been pleased to see their fights scored correctly.

We are not the only western nation who have adopted correct scoring for Muay Thai

Instead of going around in circles, do some research, thats what I did when first confronted with the notion that most of my understanding about scoring was possibly incorrect.

Never looked back

Dazzathethai - What other western nations have adopted this type of scoring.

It's not that I don't want to learn its the reality that there's people on here saying that the body kick is assumed to have effect and scoring more than any other technique when in all the Muay Thai rules it clearly states that all techniques score the same.

Please show me where it says that the body kick scores more because of assumed effect!

Darren Im not sure if youre trying to say I dont understand when you say you personally have never had difficulty explaining the scoring system. But to be clear I said that Ive never had a first time audience get it first time. Not that i found explanation difficult or indeed couldnt get the point across.

In James here we have some one asking a reasonable question. And one to which the answer i believe lies between the lines in the rule book. As Tony himself has admitted all techniques are equal potentially but in reality some are more equal.

I really cannot add any more to the debate. Its interesting in so far as its no different to a child asking 'why' after each parental instruction. It forces the respondant to search his understanding and structure an answer.

I believe Daitan won given the prevailing scoring system. And yet acknowledge James makes a valid question. He just doesnt seem happy with the answer.

I confess despite knowing and understanding scoring I still smile when such questions are raised seeing myself asking the same questions myself in the pursuit of greater understanding. Sometimes you just have to accept thats how it works....Even if you dont agree.

James, I do have to agree with Dave, the points have been answered, even if not to your liking.

I have said previously, it does not say anything in the rules about assumed effect or that any techniques score higher than others. Nevertheless, in Thailand a body kick and knee landing cleanly score without obvious effect. That said, a body kick that does show a physical effect is considered better. This is something that is not explicit in the rules either.

This is how the rules are applied in Thailand and actually the system results in very consistent decisions, whether you agree with them or not. It is worth remembering that the rules are written in different language, and written presuming those reading them understand the sport and its cultural nuances well.

There have been calls in Thailand to change some of the judging practices, but currently that is how the sport is scored. Who knows what the future will hold.

I hope people are not loosing sight of the fact it was a very good fight, and Jackson is one tough cookie,

He won the fight no doubt, You dont need to say you showed footage to ex Thai champs to see that :) He won no doubt,

Also people dont loose sight in how good Jackson was winning that fight against a very good boxer, his hands kept coming, thats so hard to fight against,

I am intrigued by Tony Myers responses, as usual they perfect to the point, but Tony I was wondering seen as you were the ref and unbiased, did you think twice about posting your opinion on here seen as you were the Ref,

Just curious because I have never seen this before.

Thanks.


This one for Phillipe, I am sure you have watdhed the fight over and over, and I know he is your fighter, but calm down a minute and try to watch it again as if he was not your boy, and tell me what you think,

Kevin.

Dave Croft -

In James here we have some one asking a reasonable question. And one to which the answer i believe lies between the lines in the rule book.

All I am asking is why the fights are not being scored to the rule book?

And still no one can answer me.

Dazzathethai -

I'm intrigued to know why you would have struggled to understand Muay Thai Scoring since looking on your website and seeing that you trained with a Thai Master for 17years?

James, I will attempt an answer. I suspect that generally westerners see sports rules in many sports as one might view a legal document, with every possible scenario covered and with sports players breaking the rules where they are not written carefully enough. My experience of Muay Thai rules is that they seem more to do with the spirit of the sport rather than the letter of the law - just a personal observation though.

Given the way that Muay Thai rules are written they do not appear to be interpreted in the way rules might be in some other western sports. For example, violations of the rules are written in very loose terms in the rules with fouls including "...throwing, back beaking, locking the opponent’s arms, using Judo and wrestling techniques". I you watch fights in Thailand you will clearly see that there are throwing technique used regularly as well as techniques that are very close to Greco-Roman wrestling techniques being applied without any warning. While the rules are not that clear in this regard those who know Muay Thai understand which throws are allowed and which are not. As I said previously, a number of sports apply normative or unwritten rules, and Muay Thai is no exception. You can argue that this situation offends your or others western sensibilities and logic and that is fine, but that is the reality of the situation.

Kevin, there are certainly issues with officials commenting on decisions. I am not sure it is usual practice and is probably rightly frowned upon in many quarters. I do think the context in which this might happen is important though. Personally I feel it is acceptable in a case where there may be wide misunderstanding and the comments are made in an attempt to educate. I was originally drawn into this particular debate after the promoter asked me to review the fight and give my opinion. I thought some may feel my opinion might be biased given I am from England, so I also asked a Thai judge to look at the fight and give me his verdict.

My posts are intended help people understand decisions rather than inflame a situation or polarise sides in a disputed decision. I also hope whatever individuals think of decisions that judges here make they realise they have the best intentions and are as fair as possible.

Thanks for the response, much appreciated.

Liam R - WBC scoring rules .

15.2.2 The scoreless criteria are as follows:
15.1.2.1 The boxer violates any rule when using his Muay Thai fighting weapons.
15.1.2.2 Those Muay Thai fighting weapons attack the opponent’s am(s) or leg (s) as his self defense techniques.
15.1.2.3 The attack is light, without power from body weight behind it.
15.1.2.4 The boxer kicks his opponent on target, but his kicking leg is caught by his opponent to throw him down on the ring floor; the kicker scores a point. However, if the kicker with his kicking leg caught by opponent pretends to fall down on the ring floor, he is considered guilty of violation the rules. In this case, no boxer scores a point.
15.1.2.5 Throwing the opponent down on the ring floor without using any Muay Thai fighting weapons.

Please check 15.1.2.3 .

I would say this states that not all body kicks are assumed to have effect.

The rule 15.1.2.3 the attack is light,without power from body weight behind it is a SCORELESS technique i.e does not score , doers not presumed to have effect!

Damn! You have plenty of free time on your hands James-Cornwall lol.

The thing is this is all very subjective. Watching a fight from the audience and to some point even on video is not going to be as objective as a judge. In the judges favour they are closest to the fight, there are 3 of them, they are trained to score and to be uninfluenced by the crowd and the corners.

So what might look as an ineffective kick to you from a spectators point of view could be totally ruled different by a judge.

Hence why we have judges, a hard job at best of times in addition to being the subject of debate every time their is a close contest.

You may of missed my previous question James-Cornwall with all the answers piling in; Do you compete in Muay Thai or any contact sports? or are you an avid fan? As you seem very interested in the scoring system of Muay Thai, all good valid questions I might add and this is the sort of debate that these forums were created for. It gives us all questions that we need to answer to progress our sport further, so thank you.

I asked Tony after the fight he said Daitan had two big rounds to win it so as a person I respect and admire I'm happy and the judges I like the questioning of it because it's education in reading it and we are allowed to speak x

Shaun-

I'm writing my opinion on the fight with evidence backing why Jamal should have won.

There's people coming on saying that the body kick scores more because of this assumed effect yet I or no one else could find where it says this!

I would also say that all 3 judges have most likely done a course saying that you score a body kick higher than anything else due to effect.

When being told by Dazzatthai to go do some research I do and all I find is what I already know.

Vinny -

What would you and Tony class as a big round? Is this a round that would be 10-8?

The actual evidence is that Daitan won - he has the belt! lol!

Okay this seems to be going round in circles and it would seem you are locked in how you perceive this fight and therefore it is an opinion that is unlikely to be changed no matter how it is explained. However, I had an e-mail from someone who does not subscribe to Ax but has been reading it, they wan't to remain anonymous which I respect but have said that I can use their analogy if I so wish. I quite like it so here it is:
'Techniques with difficulty score higher than techniques without the same degree of difficulty. Timing, movement, ring craft, blocking are all non-offensive aspects of the sport on which a fight can be won or lost.
Look at gymnastics, in particular tumbling. Does the perfectly executed, if not slightly childish, front roll score as well as the triple spin which lands slightly off? (Excuse my terminology) In terms of "effect" the roll was executed perfectly. The technique landed as intended and was without flaw. The triple spin did not go through exactly as planned, yet higher marks are awarded for the difficulty it entails. The timing is more important, the movement, the leverage without being in contact with the ground add to the difficulty of the move.
Back to Muay Thai, take the step forward, attack and "take a shot" style of the French fighter who throws and lands more punches, against the back foot, avoidance and counter kick style of the English fighter. More aggression and success is seen, or at least perceived, from the French fighter. To judge the contest based purely on those simplistic guidelines, the French fighter wins. However, this is not how Muay Thai is judged. Assumed effect, or not as the case may be, the difficulty to land kicks, whilst avoiding and countering aggressive punch techniques is the superior skill.
Muay Thai is judged with a heavy onus on imposing your will on your opponent. Walking forward and hammering through single shots is a good example of imposing your will, if the will is imposed of course. In Mr Jackson's case, this was not what occurred. Instead, the English fighter was able to counter with effect (and without one might note) more than not, impose HIS will and skill on the French fighter. This is what won the fight.
Racing is not solely about speed in a straight line or speed round a corner, it's about winning the race. Speed is a factor, not the end result. The race is a wonderful concoction of multiple factors which determine the outcome.
Muay Thai is not about aggression, or number of shots landed, or how many steps backward you take. These are factors, not the end result.
The contest is a wonderful concoction of multiple factors which determine the outcome.
In my opinion Daitan won this fight.'

This is a very good analogy James-Cornwall and in addition some of the top judges and referees in this country have put their penny-worth forward for you to research and assess. If you don't understand it, you simply don't understand it.When I did my first judging assessment course I git it straight away. A bit like the off-side rule in football, some find it obviously simple others don't. I can only make a guess that you do not compete in Muay Thai (I asked earlier to assess your goal in understanding our sport/art)and either compete in a different sport or you are a fan. All the same good luck in your pursuits and hopefully we will see you on one of the Judging courses to help in your quest.
SHAUN

James - If you showed that video to your Thai trainers at Tiger gym do you think they would agree with the result or not?

Shaun -

You see the fight very different to how I see it.

Daiton counter attacking with body kicks?

A counter attack is one when you avoid a shot and reply , that was not happening in this case. Daiton was getting hit whilst throwing his leg up to the arm with body weight moving backwards ( please look at rules listed above for non scoring techniques ).

Daiton didn't really throw many body kicks until round 4 ( to my memory it was 3 ) it was all leg kicks. He threw a couple of good body kicks in that round and moved around well which is why he won the 4th for me.

Rnd 5 was more of the same as 1,2,3,5 where Daiton was getting dominated round the ring and when throwing body kicks was off balance.

You can 'assume' I do not compete in Muay Thai!

SawyerUK -

Next time I'm there I'll discuss it as I've always thought a technique needs to be thrown well for it to score like explained in the rules I've posted for you all.

Pretty much what i saw too! You can also assume i dont compete and thick as pig shiz

Vinny -
Please would you explain to me what you and tony would score a big round? Would that be a 10-8?

Parttimefanatic - You might be thick but I wouldn't have thought a combat sport would have been the hardest thing to work out?

If the body kicks were having such effect I'm sure you would have been going home saying that Daiton Jackson could chop down palm trees!

Instead you went home confused to how he won!

i am not a judge but i only had daitan winning rd 4 i thought his kicks in rd 5 were powerless an showed no effect i have said afew time now how can assumed effect score higher than effect i have also seen thai fights in the uk were there has been a lad kicking body and legs and the other lad boxing an the fight ended up in a draw or a win to the boxer you can find these on p4tv,so maybe the judges favor certain fighters or some judges score it different than others i am not having a pop at judges here either as i know it must be a hard job,
also why do body kicks score if they show no effect or hit arms.
judging does seem to be abit complicated i know this is different but every1 knows who wins a street fight!

James- I was at the fight ring side so I'll offer up my opinion. In the 1st 2 rounds jamal looked dangerous with his hands agreed, he had pace accuracy and power, but from the 3rd round onwards his hands started landing much less with reduced power. In my opinion this was due 1 to the leg kicks daitan had previously landed plus the big leg kick at the start of the round 3. If you look at round 4 jamal barely lands any of his punches on anything other than air or daitans guard, again in my opinion this is due to the increase in range daitan has created with that lead leg body kick. Jamal is holding his right arm lower to protect more of his ribs with his elbow and throwing the right hand far less now in my opinion that's effect in its self. Jamal knows if he throws that hand he runs the risk of taking that kick cleanly in the ribs. Even in round 5 jamal rarely lands his hands especially with the type of effect he had in rounds 1 and 2. After the 2nd round daitan didn't look in danger of being stopped.

I went to the fights as a neutral spectator jst to watch thai.

Kevin -

We'll have to disagree chief.

Rnd 3 Jamel was just as strong as 1,2 especially when he had Daiton in the corner and threw two strong holding knees and broke to throw a good elbow.

Rnd 4 Daiton took like I said before yet rnd 5 Jamal continued to press the fight in 1,2,3,5.

Thaigreencurrie -

I think your view of the fight is spot on.

Lourne Bournemouth -

That's a good article. Thanks.

Vinny -
Please would you explain to me what you and tony would score a big round? Would that be a 10-8?

A big round is usually still scored 10-9 unless one fighter is completely dominated by his opponent then it can be given a 10-8. However, if one fighter has scored a big round a judge can take a mental note of this and can allow them to make a justified decision in a close fight.

James I think round 2 was the holding knees and elbow. How many punches in round 5 did jamal actually land cleanly and accurately. The punches were rocking daitan in rounds 1 & 2 he was not rocked in round 5 so deft not as much effect as rounds 1 & 2

how the hell can it be a 10 8 rd unless they have taken a count

Can be a 10-8 even without a count. If a boxer has been totally outclassed and the reff has not stopped it..

the article via lourne is very interesting

most fights in thailand when scores are read out usually finish 49- 48, 49- 47 or something very similar, in fact in many years of watching fights here i cant ever remember a fighter scoring 50 or a fighter scoring 45

infact when a fighter is judged by the ref to being overwhelmed he will stop the fight mid round, so i dont see where the 10-7 score can come into it

fights here i believe take on there own scoring system, the thais strongly favour knee strikes to the body, and control of your opponent in the clinch, body kicks are the main weopon and punches which actually do show effect seem to be totally dimissed

i watch many final rnds where the winner is hanging on for life after being almost knocked sensless by punches , trying to cling on to his lead,

that together with the gambling aspect in the main stadiums is why i believe we can never truly score the same as thailand
plus for all we as farangs believe we fight like thais we are still a long way off in my opinion, i love watching the thais fight, yet some of our domestic fights are really boring, the one we are discussing being a fine example

I have to agree with a number of Peetee's observations. The Bangkok post article is in line with the official position given by almost all judges I have interviewed on the subject, but as suggested by Peetee, is often not what is applied in practice in the stadiums.

A number of the rules written in the rule book are interpreted liberally and with a strong normative influence. Cultural nuances and gambling have had an impact on what was essentially a scoring system adopted from western boxing. That said, the 10 point must system applied in boxing appears generally less consistent than that used in Muay Thai. How the system has developed in boxing could even be considered a less a faithful representation of the original concept - which was to avoid fighters winning a boxing match just by winning more rounds than their opponent and not considering by how big a round was won.

Peetee -

Your missing my point. I'm not asking what scorecards finish on.

I'm asking where this assumed effect of a body kick scoring more than any other technique as come from?

Some people are saying the UK is more like Thailand now ,yet we're only doing Tony Myers interpretation at what goes on in Thailand.

No where does it state that a body kick is the highest scoring technique due to assumed effect!

Johnny T's Gym -

I do have to ask do you do Muay Thai and have you do a judging course because I haven't any idea what 10-10 with a tick is?

You can have a 10-8 rnd with no count chief.


15.2 Scoring systems for the contest:
15.2.1 Full ten (10) points are given to the winner of the round and his opponent may be given 9 – 8 - 7 points in proportion. However, the point is not given in fraction (10:9 – 8 – 7).
15.2.2 For an even round, both boxers score full ten (10) points (10 : 10).
15.2.3 The winner scores ten (10) points and the lose scores nine (9) points (10 :9).
15.2.4 The clear winner of a round scores ten (10) points and the loser scores
eight (8) points (10 :8)
15.2.5 The winner of a round with his opponent having been counted once in that round scores ten (10) points and the scores eight (8) points (10:8)
15.2.6 The clear winner of a round with his opponent having been counted once in that round scores ten (10) points and the loser scores seven (7) points (10:7).
15.2.7 The winner of a round with his opponent having been counted twice in that round scores ten (10) points an the loser scores seven (7) points (10:7).
15.2.8 The boxer who has been cautioned must not get full ten points in that round. The referee’s caution can cost one (1) point each.

Please check 15.2.4

LOL James, you seem reluctant to believe that scoring practice in Thailand might deviate from the written rules.

It has been said before on this thread but I will reiterate, as far as I am aware, there is no official written rule that suggests body kicks and knees score better than other technique. Nevertheless, that tends to be what actually happens. That is not just my own observation but several other people who are involved in the sport in Thailand suggest the same thing. Whether actual practice in a sport should differ so much is a different debate.

I contemplated this situation. And recognise the validity of both sides of the argument. What in effect we have here is the same distinction that exists between written laws and those considered common law.


30MPH is the stated legal inner city road speed limit. But typically it is understood there is a 10% cushion before you are caught. Maybe not the best analogy but fair enough i guess. What is written and what is practiced rarely amount to exactly the same thing.

If you harm a burgler entering your home you are guilty of assault. Yet in practice thats rarely (thankfully) the case.

I feel that this subtle deviations from the rules that whilst easily explained and understood is holding Thai Boxing back from greater exposure in the mainstream.

And lets be fair here James. You appreciate whats being said here. And i suspect know full well how the system works....You are playing the devils advocate for the sake of argument or debate.
I fear for your sake all you will achieve is a lot of discention and eventually distain. Even those arguing against you (including myself) get the point youre making and i suspect agree. But thats the rules. We didnt make them. We just train fighters to exploit them. Jamals trainer did not train Jamal to exploit them. accordingly Daitan won tactically by using the rules in play to secure a win.

james cornwall - my post is re the article "the myths of muay thai scoring, didnt read your posts just gave on opinion on what happens here in thailand, so was not related to any of your points

having now read your post i can understand your view

From my observations I would say that some of the rules do seem to be like guidelines and seem to be open to interpretation as opposed to being absolute.Watching this fight with a view to what I believe and understand Muay Thai to be judged I gave it to Jackson as he was throwing and countering with the more difficult to perform technique in the last 2 rounds.No matter how many punches that french fella was throwing they were failing to knock Jackson out or stop him imposing his style and counter techniques.

I always thought that kicks and knees were deemed a little more difficult to perform when put against boxing so therefore were considered generally better techniques even if the effect of them wasn't as great?Im happy to be told Im wrong about this?! We've all seen many times that when Thai fighters know they are losing going in to the fifth they come out swinging trying to get the KO for the first minute or 2 of the round because they know they're behind on points and the only way to win is by KO so they come out punching and elbowing.If they fail to get the KO even if they've appeared to batter the opponant with fists and elbows that round, they always lose.The other alternative is when we see them knowing they are so far behind on points that they just dance around for the 5th as they know its already a done deal.

When I first went to Thailand a Thai trainer explaining in broken English said, punches easy to do so if punches have no power or cant knock you out or stop you then judges don't care (or words to that effect.)

That said there seem to be nuances even within a fight depending on techniques.At another fight with this same trainer, I commented on how good some guys teeps were, he kept stopping and pushing someone back with teeps all through the fight. The trainer turned to me and said, he got good teep but judges don't like, he not want to fight.The teeps were having a visible effect and were visibly moving the opponant back and stopping him a lot, but sure enough the teep guy lost.The trainer explained to me he was to defensive and was only using the teep to keep the opponant away therefore the judges didn't like it as it looked like he didn't want to fight.

I don't know how true it is to present day but Prathet was telling me recently that Lumpinee favours fighters that press forward agresively and with strong clinch where as Radjadamneon may favour more technical fimeur fighters?

So it seems to me that there does seem to be quite a lot of leeway in some of the interpretation of the rules and that often it depends on the fight and how each fight is perceived?

Dave Croft - Agree 100% with your last post.

Matthew Goulden - I was told something similar when I stayed at Jitti Gym

At striking distance a kick will outscore a punch as it is a harder technique to execute than a punch.

At striking distance a knee will score more than a kick as it is a harder technique to execute than a kick

In the clinch an elbow will score more than a knee.

Ive had many conversations with ex stadium fighters and champions,all veterans of 2-300 fights and they all say that a body kick scores when it hits the target given the boxer has good balance,poise etc,lots of Boxers throw the kick quick and pull it out of the grasp of their opponents so as not to get countered,watch Silapathai Jocky Gym as a great example,not all kicks have to be delivered full power.

Punches are used to either ko or make the opponent cover so as to use other weapons ie low kicks,if they do not ko the opponent there is every chance the kicker will win,remember the fist is gloved the other weapons are not so the fist is considered the weaker weapon,whether we agree or not is a different matter! but this is how it seems to be in Thailand.

This conversation brings to mind the words of a 1960s Boxer I had the pleasure of training with,he said if their is no knock out the fight should be a draw,he always went out to ko his opponents:)

good post P.P.!

Thank you sir:)

Completely agree with Paul and Matthew's observations.

As for differences between the stadiums, that has been the case for as long as I remember. The differences were actually far greater previously when Radjadamnern had no standing 8 counts but Lumpinee did. More recently Lumpinee banned boxers circle grabbing the waist for a period of time too, but then changed back to allowing it.

Paul Pearson -

Just looked up Silapthai Jocky Gym and I've got to say the technique of his body kicks was great to watch.

You could definitely say that was like the 'logo of Muay Thai', I'm in total agreement.

But I'm sorry that is not what I see in this fight of Daiton and Jamal. Daiton is off balance when throwing his body kicks and his control of the ring is poor.

When I watch Thai's at the stadiums they don't get bossed around the ring like Daiton was!

I'm confused to why people on here are comparing these Body kicks that Daiton was throwing to a Thai who's had over 200+ fights with great balance and technique which do show effect!

The Myers Thai that everyone is doing in the UK at the moment is going to ruin the sport completely if you ask me. You can't have people going home confused to why decisions have been given!

James - cornwall without wanting to cause offence though, it only seems to be you, and phillipe who are confused!!

You only have my word on this, but in all honesty I'm completely impartial, I couldn't have cared less who won/lost the fight, I don't know either of the 2 guys.I agree with you, from a spectators point of view and considering it was a world title fight, I thought it was scrappy and not great to watch (and no I couldnt do better!)

As it goes, my understanding of Muay Thai scoring has come from what I figured out and been told myself, not in anyway by Tony Myers, although I greatly admire his work. Still I found Jackson the winner based on my understanding of the scoring, and in no way was I confused or in doubt about it.Jamal was ahead in first 3 rounds but his agressive punching style was having very little real effect vis a vis slowing Jackson down or knocking him out.In the last 2 important rounds Jackson successfully weathered the storm and mainly scored left body kicks with relative ease.

Im glad your pushing this though mate because there definately needs to be a greater understanding of the rules of MT in the UK especially as you point out with the lower level of most fighters here, making it sometimes more difficult to score

Matthew goulden -

No offence taken. If you read through the thread though there's more than just me and philipe who disagree with the decision.

I would even say Dave Croft agrees with me yet understands the result due to assumed effect of body kicks scoring higher?

There's 5 rnds so why all scored individually so why would 2 be so important?

I admit Iv not read all the comments in the thread sorry! My understanding is all rounds do score but 3,4 and 5 are the more important money rounds.If 3,4 and 5 are deemed a draw then the first 2 will be looked at so as to determine an overall winner.

Exactly why this is the case I could only guess, Tony Myers or Paul Pearson etc would be better able to explain the history and reasons for this exactly I presume?

All that said I understand these rules and this method of scoring, and Im very happy with it, and therefore I am very happy with Muay Thai as a sport.If I wasn't happy Id train and watch k1, kickboxing, MMA etc instead.For example I find k1's emphasis on landing combinations regardless of effect and limited or know clinch terrible to watch.Iv seen many thai fighters doing terrible in k1 rules when oddly there MT has shown them to be the more devastating fighter even though they didn't land as many punches/combinations.

I guess it becomes a bit like why some people prefer rugby union to rugby league!?

Matthew goulden -

The first 2 rnds in Thailand rarely see any action due to gambling reasons!

3,4 you normally have entertainment to its highest then 5 it would normally settle down again.

Yet in this Fight and many in the UK you have action from the first bell.

What Thai fighters have you seen do poorly at K-1?

Rounds 3,4 and 5 are more important because they show who is the better fighter. Its easy to fight strong and hard early on when you aren't tired but to remain strong and balanced and fight well later in the fight shows who's best. Early in the fight if its well matched neither fighter will have a foothold in it and both are fresh so early rounds are more likely to be even. Later in the fight the stronger, fitter more effective fighter usually starts to pull ahead.

James,I wasnt really talking in context of this actual fight more about the body kick score in general,I went of topic slightly given this thread is about the winner of Daitan and Jamals fight.

For what its worth I had Daitan the winner by virtue of better counter kicking tactics against the punches of the French Lad,someone on a earlier post said if Jamal and his corner thought he was winning then why was he going forward in the later rounds and then getting caught with body kicks?,for the ko perhaps I dont know but its a good point.

James when I first saw the fight I did think it was a poor show show of Muay Thai in general considering that it was a world title fight and I have seen Daitan fight a lot better.

I think we have to remember that the standard in Europe is still way behind Thailand in general,well In my opinion it is anyway,so we are not going to see many fights of the stadium standard,but we still can try to score the same and use the same techniques etc,rather than as Jamal did just come forward Boxing(not good boxing at that)anyway I understand your points James,by the way Silapathai is mint isnt he:)

Khem fairtex has been beaten loads in k 1 and he's awesome muay Thai fight who I love watching x

Kem Sitsongpeenong has performed poorly in K1

also that guy who was from super pro samui forget his name.Hasnt Yod fought some unimpresive k1 fights, theres loads more I forget all the names.I also think a lot of Buakaws defeats bellied who was the better fighter when in k1.

Aside form that i was also reffering to freinds and others Iv watched who have Muay Thai background but couldnt transition to a k1 format very well often looking (to me) the better fighter.

Richard Smith -

I will have to disagree with you on this I believe that rnds 1,2 your not able to give to either fighter in Thailand on the majority of fights with them doing very little because of the gambling at stadiums.

Rnds 3,4 normally are fantastic to watch so judges are able to score with both fighters going for the win.

Rnd 5 it would more often than not settle back down as the fighters would know who will have won by this point and not push too hard to gain more injuries which would maybe stop them fighting a few weeks later. This isn't all fights but is what you'll see most of the time.

We all seem to be moving away from what I originally asked which was why a body kick was assumed to cause effect so making it the highest scoring technique?

I personally think that the judging at the moment in the UK with the way body kick is assumed to cause effect is damaging the sport that we all love so much!

Do you know that I've had many of my friends also go to Thailand and watch fights at the stadiums. These friends don't even train yet never come home and say to me that they didn't understand why the decision was given to a fighter. Most comments I get are , wow them Thais can fight ! , you must be crazy getting hit with those elbows and knees ! , and the best one is how hard can they kick to the body ! .

BUT never ones questioning the decision.

We in the UK are supposedly trying to do the same as Thailand yet we don't have the gambling culture they have so the audiences need to be entertained and pleased with the show they watch!

What do you see for the future of Muay Thai if paying public are walking away from shows confused by the result due to off balance with bad technique body kicks assuming to score effect compared to other shots that genuinely show effect!

James - Cornwall

I have to say that after following both threads I find your literal interpretation of the rules as they are written both sensible and correct and also like a breath of fresh air over here.

This has been very eye opening I believe for many and the clear and concise facts show clearly the problems with misinterpreting rules.

There is so much that I could say but I believe it needs to be tackled carefully and clearly exactly like James Cornwall has.

It is the sport Authority of Thailand that actually has the written rules of Muaythai which the WBC, other associations and the stadiums adopt - how they interpret them is another thing.

I for one believe that for the growth of the sport as a Professional sport it has to be a literal interpretation - this is what the WBC follow. No-where is it written or has it been officially changed to allow anything other than the literal interpretation. I think that Dave Croft makes the most important point in saying this:

"But thats the rules. We didnt make them. We just train fighters to exploit them."

- This is the sort of loophole that will be the downfall of any sport - exploit them for who's benefit? Not the crowd, not the future growth of the sport - simply to gain the win. The rules as they are written cannot be exploited as it is quite simple - do more damage to them in a round than they do to you - that makes a great fight.

The stadiums interpret the rules as written simply to make their own shows good sellers (after all they are businesses) - as said above:

"As for differences between the stadiums, that has been the case for as long as I remember. The differences were actually far greater previously when Radjadamnern had no standing 8 counts but Lumpinee did. More recently Lumpinee banned boxers circle grabbing the waist for a period of time too, but then changed back to allowing it."

These differences are simply introduced to try and make the fights more sellable in that stadium. And with such major differences in their interpretation of the rules and regulations - which would you follow when deciding to adopt their interpretation as correct? You cannot pick and choose to suit or it is in fact yourself that should change the name of the sport you are doing.

"But thats the rules. We didnt make them. We just train fighters to exploit them."

That above sentence sums up the problem - there is no room for exploitation of misinterpretation.

Again this is my following and that of those I work with - so keep it civil as it is in everybodys interest to grow the sport.

And it was actually Nokweed who summed the round situation up in what I believe to be the best and clearest way at the WBC 2011 Las Vegas Convention:

"All 5 rounds score evenly - it should be looked at like 5 separate fights - that is why we stop and score at the end of each round"

The comparison with a marathon is not accurate - it would be if it was 1 x 15 minute round I agree - but it is a whole different scenario.

As a coach I may employ the strategy to conserve energy in the early rounds to save for later - and both fighters are feeling each other out so not taking risks - however you must be aware that you could also gain a valuable point by taking advantage of knowing your opponent could be relaxed in the first round. And if both fighters dont try because they feel they wont score - it would be as damaging as football teams just passing for the first half and only actually being competitive in the second half.

And my interpretation of "Assumed" effect:

Assumption is only made when there is no visable sign of something - so "assumed" effect would be the same as no effect - which doesnt sound so good does it? But thats the situation.

There are many different effects that a move can have and not all are visable - and it is the job of the judge to be able to see these effects - there is no such thing as a non effective scoring move be it kick, punch elbow or knee.

To be fair there's not lots of fights that are open to this amount of debate! Of course some fights are going to be questionable like any sport!
Don't chance the bloody rules of scoring cos of it tho!
The best fights to get are in Thailand! Therefore we need to fight under their rule set to stand any chance of getting those fights and winning

Lorne - a punch that snaps the head back may not even have that much power, because the head is easy to move!
Yet a kick with some power may not show visual effect to the body because the body doesnt move as easy as the head.

If moving the head with a punch scored as high as anything else there would be no real motivation to use proper Thai boxing techniques, it would be similar to k1 or full contact with added knee and elbow

Robin Shepard jai -

How can you say that a body kick would not show effect? If the body kick is thrown with technique and power the same as the punches you are regarding then of course it would show effect! You see the ribs and arms mark up on fighters all the time! When thrown with accuracy and power you will often see a facial expression or body movement letting the judges know that the kick actually caused effect!

Thanks Lorne them posts are great!

Assumed effect = no effect!

Nokweed couldn't have said it better ! Score 5rnds like 5 separate fights instead of this marathon theory!

Lorne, yes they are the rules Sport Authority of Thailand, which were produced by the Boxing Board of Sport, they are an English translation of the rules used in the main stadiums. I do not disagree with anyone who suggests there is a strong argument that for English speaking Muay Thai officials, the rules could and should be written more clearly and include notes on interpretation.

Nevertheless, however clearly rules are written, they do have to be interpreted to translate written statements into what actually happens in practice in a sport. All sports have to do this.

Nokweed's statement you cite, is just as much an interpretation of the written rules as is Radom Na Bangchang interpretation and Wan Chai Prowsee's, that judging Muay Thai is like a marathon. Perhaps more pertinently, Random Na Bangchang contributed significantly to writing those particular rules and Nokweed would not have.

What is clear very is that the system used for judging in Thailand, whatever people feel are its influences and limitations, is extremely consistent, far more so than international boxing. Judging in the UK (on major shows with trained judges) is also extremely consistent now.

What consistent judging means is that athletes can train in a specific way to win using those criteria. In the past in the UK we had no consistently applied criteria and that limited athletes’ development here. I believe Muay Thai has developed here significantly in recent years. Training and testing officials alongside more people travelling to train in Thailand has contributed to this.

We are not yet at the level of Thailand in terms of athlete development. However, if people like the style and skill demonstrated by boxers (Nak Muay) there, they would do well to remember that the judging criteria s applied in Thailand has contributed in part in shaping those skills.

I never said a body kick wouldn't show effect, of course it could, red marks , winding, broken ribs.
I said that a weak punch to the head could show more effect than a moderate kick to the body.

Dont see what all the fuss is. The fight was scrappy, but if your looking for a winner demonstrating the better Muay Thai then Jackson won over 5 rounds. The sanctioning of this as a world title probably has caused this to be blown right out of proportion, but a wise man once said to me a belt is only good enough to hold your trousers up! :-)

It was a pretty boring way to win, but win he did. Reminded me a bit of calzaghe's win over kessler, changing tactics in the face of a pummelling in order to get the W.

Without scrolling back through the posts i dont know who wrote that I agreed with the principle point but lets be clear for clarity. i do agree. I feel that if all techniques showed effect to score we would have a sport easily understood and easier to market to the public. But change cannot come about if only one country practicing the sport decides to change. Change must come internationally and of course principally from the country of origin.

But? and this is the big one. It isnt changing any time soon. If you dont like it then lament it. But dont let it spoil your appreciation of an exciting combat sport.

Such big fights focus all the good and the bad elements in one. Debate is healthy and results in greater understanding.

Dave Croft -

But? and this is the big one. It isnt changing any time soon. If you dont like it then lament it. But dont let it spoil your appreciation of an exciting combat sport.

Many people have commented on this fight not being the best , so if you took away the exciting bit of the fight which was the strong boxing from Jamal and made him flick kick to score for the judges how dull would it have been!

Please could you let me know what other country uses the scoring criteria of a body kick scoring more due to assumed effect!

I also asked before what do you all see for the future of Muay Thai if the paying public are walking away from shows confused?

james my personal thoughts are that Muay Thai is destined to be the discipline that commands the most respect, the one that proves to be the most dynamic, dramatic and effective but that remains an enigma. The promising child with his future ahead of him so bright at school leaving age he had to wear sunglasses only to find themselves at 45yrs old still flippin burgers and living in a rented room. Be it the scoring system, quasi religious ram muay or often imagined brutality i cannot say.

No finer example....
Yesterday my lad Jon Greenwood fought Jono Bracken on Johnny T's promotion. By round 2 it was a blood bath. A demonstration in grit and determination by both fighters......A truly exciting fight and believe me ive been privaleged to watch many over the years. And yet half the audience had drifted away so as to secure their seat at a bar to watch football. On my website i describe how dedicated Thai gyms are diluting to include MMA to survive....possibly bowing to public demand. ultimately you can only sell what someone wants to buy.

So you ask me wheres it going? I have a feeling the question is rhetorical.

As for Daitans fight. i was privaleged to coach him elbows for some time after lost quite badly a clash with a lad fighting for me called Alex. I wont lie I having seem Daitan using his elbows for quite a few fights now but continue to be impressed by his determination and courage. I for one do not feel comfortable suggested the fight was boring. As that would suggest criticism. I wasnt there, and cannot know what the game plan was. But can say that regardless of negative popular opinion the fight highlighted Daitans spirit and never say die attitude. His corner ought to be commended for playing the rules currently prevailing. Right or wrong......

typo...I have not seen daitan using his elbows for quite a few fights.....

I don’t know why some people waste their time bothering to even acknowledge posts by some people on here, some who have tried the correct scoring system, realised they can’t win a fight or train a boxer to compete under those rules so reverted back and live in their own little worlds

Liam.....Its a debate. If james eventually recognises if not the validity then at least the reality of the current scoring system then its all good. i have a little time and find it interesting.

You can add to the debate.....

Liam R -

It seems to me that you'll be living in your little world for many years with the scoring criteria over here!

You out body kick , you win is how it goes!

I completely understand how you would score a fight and don't agree with it! I know a correct scoring system and also pasted it for you yet you just come back with the interpretation of how it's done in Thailand.

Dave Croft -

Thanks Cheif!

Judging course and assessment August 19th

There has been a lot of interest and demand for a judging course so I have just organised one with Tony Myers for Sunday August 19th here in St. Ives Cambridgeshire.

The course is not just for those of you who want to become judges but equally it is for those who want to have an understanding of the scoring criteria in Muay Thai.

For the fighter - Knowing how to score correctly will help you develop a better strategy for winning.

For the instructor/coach - Knowing how to score correctly will help you in training your fighters in correct technique and strategy.

For the fan - Knowing how to score correctly will increase your understanding and enjoyment of the sport.

The course cost is £20 which includes your assessment fee and certificate upon completion.

I will be holding this course at the St. Ives boxing club (details of how to get there will be added nearer the time).

The course will run from 12pm-4pm (times may be revised nearer the date).

To book please e-mail me on shaun.muaythai@gmail.com and I will add you to the list.

James u didn't answer last time, what gym u from?

I'm still waiting for answers from Vinny and Tony Myers regarding what a big round was when talking about Daiton's fight?

Message à l'attention de l'escroc de Pinto père alias Puay Thai Tours.

Ne la ramène pas sur le combat. Occupe toi de tes enfants et de ton "business".

Ce n'est pas parce que tu vis en Thaïlande que tu connais le Muay Thai...

Tu es un guingol.

Tu veux que les français de muay thaitv entre autre rapliquent sur ce forum et racontent qui tu es vraiment ?

Donc tais-toi et va voir ailleurs.

For Kevin.

I watched the fight again. And it's the same judgement : robbery.



For Hardsteel : stop to be jalous. Organize a fight you vs Jackson and a fight you vs Wahib and we will see if they are B class fighters...!!!

Give your name and after we will talk !

Like a lot of things thai ( from their women to their language) it isn't straight forward to western ways but in thai idealogy would be perfectly logical. Good point on the explanation of fouls tony. An old thai coach of mine said no tripping then one of his fighters tripped me I said "foul!" He said " no foul because beautiful!" I laughed and thought typical thailand just accept it. Body kick carry far more inertia ( moving weight is the word I'm looking for if inertia is not correct) that is clear to see when holding pads therfore is going to cause more effect surely. A kick will knock you flying if hits right a punch can spark you but wont move you half way across the ring.

Paulinthailand -

Where is this beautiful body kick that Daiton throws which causes Jamal to move across the ring?

really good fight and big respect to them but niether one is worthy of a world title.

Iv not watched the fight nor care to with you guys saying it not a good fight just offering another out side point I was told from thailand. It doest have to be logical to us for it to be perfectly logical to them. No contact in public but pay for sex behind closed doors seems crazy but perfectly fine in thai
L. Their language is back to front to ours who's is correct. Knowing tony for many years and as a person he really is one of the smartest guys out there and really has a wealth of knowledge. to question is fine but not to listen not so good. Tony has helped the uk get to where it is today in muay thai. Possibly the most influetial guy on the muay thai circuit. This has to be for a reason

If you've not watched the fight why comment?

Because iv read what is written. Jesus justt offering other view and reasoning. You like arguing? Readinng that was draining

some good posts there paul nice-1 like it !

And please watch the fight paulits at the top / first post
i gave it this score
Daitan Jackson v Jamal Wahib
round 1 10-10 with a star / mark to jamal
round 2 10-9 to jamal
round 3 10-9 to jamal
round 4 9-10 to Daitan
round 5 9-10 to daitan



with Muay Thai Scoring
Daitan Jackson wins !
he crossed the line First, its a 5 last race
doesnt matter if if they leading in first 3
"strongest finisher"

some good posts there paul nice-1 like it !

And please watch the fight paulits at the top / first post
i gave it this score
Daitan Jackson v Jamal Wahib
round 1 10-10 with a star / mark to jamal
round 2 10-9 to jamal
round 3 10-9 to jamal
round 4 9-10 to Daitan
round 5 9-10 to daitan



with Muay Thai Scoring
Daitan Jackson wins !
he crossed the line First, its a 5 LAP race
doesnt matter if if they leading in first 3
"strongest finisher" = Winner

I am not agree with you Sandy

Jackson is not effective. Jamal can move formward all the fight without difficulties...so Jackson is not effective and never dangerous.

How can you win in these conditions ? It's not amateur fight. it's profesional. So the effective must be the own condition to win.

Besides there was mistake in the 2nd round. Jackson is down so he must be counted...Wahib = 10-8 !

So just with that Wahib won the fight.

he lost Jackson won worry about Craig jose and come over to uk if you are such a big fan of Jamal Phillipe!!

phillippe GERBET, becouse a fighter gets knocked down with a punch in muay thai does not neccessary warrent a standing eight count, this is not proffesional boxing

it is up to the referees discresion to give a count, daiton clearly did not merit a count

and in muay thai an 8 count does not automatically give the fighter a 10 - 8 rnd as in pro boxing, it can do but not set in stone

Phillipe you keep on quoting the knockdown system and scoring from K1.

You sound just like Alain Prost did after every race he lost to Aryton Senna.

Sandy Holt -

i gave it this score
Daitan Jackson v Jamal Wahib
round 1 10-10 with a star / mark to jamal
round 2 10-9 to jamal
round 3 10-9 to jamal
round 4 9-10 to Daitan
round 5 9-10 to daitan

What is 10-10 with a star / mark to Jamal?

Your maths don't seem too great ,Daiton 48 Jamal 48 means you gave it a DRAW!

Paulinthailand -

I'm not arguing I'm just putting my view across using the WRITTEN rules of MUAY THAI !

Philippe Gerbil and your boyfriend James everyone knows Daiton Jackson won this fight that isnt the argument here i think the better point above about this fight being at best B class is a fair one, the fight was rubbish and never deserved even north area title. why are you so bitter james

with sandys scoring it is not a draw because jackson won 4th n 5th round, which meens he wins!!! in MUAYTHAI!!!

me personally think its stupid but thats how its scored n thats it!

Daitan got the decission but doesnt sandys score give it to jamal with the star in round 1??

i thought the stars was to decide it in the event of a draw?

That's what I thought too?

I can't believe this debate is still goin on fact not every1 agrees with decision
Fact it ain't gonna change anything
I personally think u should score all the rds otherwise wot is the point in having a 5rd fight
Also I think effect should be scored higher than assumed effect

He would ave to stay consistent throughout the fight for the 1st round to become effective but sandy is right a muay thai fight best explained would be like a 5 lap running race.

Good post Kev mate, and agree with all that.

I just want somebody to explain the star or mark Sandy put there!

Cheers mike
I dont agree with the star thing either yes I understand Thailand don't really score 1st 2rds coz of gambling but we ain't in Thailand an we ain't gambling
Should be a 10point must easier to understand

Yes that too..

Its like the gyms that allways make you bow before going in and out, half of the people dont understand the bow niether cos again we aint in thailand haha..

10 point must with effect far more exciting ;-)

A NOD OF RESPECT

“Bow to others in reverence and respect,
but never in slavery."
Tracy Hickman

Bowing before entering or leaving a training hall is done in many martial art schools as a sign of respect. Students and instructors bow to each other and in some schools bowing before National flags is performed. There are even some martial arts where bowing before a shrine is required.

So is all this necessary? Being modern day warriors should we be expected to follow traditions? There are those of you who, through your religious teachings, believe that you should not bow in reverence to anyone or anything other than God.

I think that the first thing to do is to understand, historically where bowing began and then to look at the reasoning behind bowing.

Historically, bowing was used to demonstrate an attitude of respect, reverence and submission. In the Orient and Asia it was also common, and in some countries still common, for the people to prostrate themselves on the ground before Royalty.

Bowing has existed at various periods in history and still exists now within a variety of cultures placing varying degrees of importance upon its delivery and method.

In Europe bowing is exclusively male (females perform the courtesy), the depth of the bow expressing the degree of respect or gratitude. The gestures of the European bow can be quite flamboyant in courtly circles with the males expected to ‘Bow and scrape’. ‘Scraping’ refers to the drawing back of the right leg as one bows, such that the right foot scrapes the floor or earth. While performing this type of bow it is typical for the man’s left hand to be pressed across his abdomen while the right is held out from the body.

It is probable that bowing originate as gesture of subordination, as the lowering of the head leaves the bower vulnerable. This was none more significant than in the era of the Samurai in Japan. The Samurai were at the top of a stratified society and had the right to kill anyone who did not show the proper respect.

As mentioned earlier, those of you with strong religious beliefs would be forgiven if you refused to bow as you may believe this contradicts your teachings. Islam teaches the Muslim that they worship only Allah “He has commanded that you only worship Him; that is the right religion, but most men do not understand” (Surah Yusuf 12:40).The Christian belief is similar “…That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in Heaven and Earth and under the Earth…” (Philippians 2:10). So would bowing to a master, teacher or even a flag be in contradiction to their beliefs?



If the Martial art in question is religious in its teachings, then I would have to say yes. However the mutual salute to begin and end a class is not a bow of submission, obeisance, or homage. Rather it is like an officer returning the salute of an enlisted man. With the words ‘attention’ and ‘salute’ the teacher shows his respect for the students (they honour him by choosing to study and train with him). In return the students show their respect for their teacher as a worthy instructor and fellow student. It is simply put, mutual respect.

So let’s take a look at some methods of bowing within the Martial arts.

Korean and Japanese bowing (E Kyung Yet & Rei) are simple bows from the waist with the hands firmly at the sides, feet together and the head lowered.
The Chinese bow, Gin Lai, is an open hand over a closed fist and represents the sun and moon.
There are many more elaborate oriental and Asian ways to perform the bow, but simply for the beauty within its complexity, the one that I wish to explain further is the Thai bow known as the Wai. (Pronounced Why)

Like the Indian Namaste, the wai is essentially the pressing together of palms, accompanied by a nod of the head, a slight bow, and the Thai hello: Sawatdee. However the simplicity stops there as it is customary in Thailand to offer the correct wai dependant upon the status of the person you are offering it to.

Generally the palms are held together so that the tips of the thumbs touch four different places: chest, chin, nose and forehead. Each position indicates the social position of the ‘waier’ relative to the ‘waiee’. As a rule of thumb chest wais are given to students, children and compeers; chin wais to adults; nose wais to teachers and parents and forehead wais to images of the Buddha, monks and the Royalty. If two strangers should meet and are unable to gauge each other’s age or social position then the chin wai would be the safest.
It is not common for teachers or parents to reciprocate the wai. However this should not be taken as a slight to your carefully rehearsed wai. In Thailand teachers and parents are respected almost unconditionally, and may acknowledge a wai with merely a nod.

Like many hand greetings, the wai no doubt originated as a way of showing respect and as a way of showing that nobody has a weapon. To wai correctly you should have your hands empty; unfortunately it is increasingly performed holding keys, money or, more commonly, mobile phones.

This brings us to the question of when to wai. It’s fairly simple actually; the younger generally wai elders first. If you are entering or leaving a residence or training camp you should already be bringing your hands up. If you are a Farang (foreigner) courting a Thai, you must remember to wai every older member of the family, especially the father and mother, before they wai you. Thai households being what they are, it is not always clear who is family and who is not so err on the side of caution: ‘politeness’ is counted amongst the highest of Thai virtues.

So as you can see bowing, whether Thai, Japanese, Chinese or Korean etc has social and etiquette values very similar to our western hand shake or the Russian bear hug!
Bringing us back to bowing to a school shrine, if it is indicative of a cultural tradition, a sign of respect for a place of learning or just in recognition towards the efforts of past teachers without any religious or spiritual significance then there should be no reason why the student, whatever their denomination is, should not offer their respects. As with everything we do in life, awareness and understanding are the keys.

So we are simply giving a nod of respect to those more experienced than us, to our training partners, teachers and family and to the halls that we train in.

However, if you do not bow with sincerity and respect and merely go through the motions, it is very easy to see and is almost indicative of how that person’s spirit will be during actual practice and to some extent will show in their technique too.

“True humility makes no pretence of being humble and scarcely ever utters words of humility. Equally, it’s difficult to make yourself humble by acts of will.”
St. Francis of Sales

Elitekev -

If your scoring fights this way your not having a 5rnd fight your having a 2rnd fight!

Beaty -

How would it be like having a 5 lap race , Daiton didn't run any faster in lap 4/5 .

Shut up Paul Woord with your little pussy

Fair enough Shaun but being English i believe shaking hands is a sign of respect so i will stick with that..

thanks for your views tho mate

to dot or not to dot.

To be fair the notion of dotting isnt really too impractical. Where there is a clear winner of round one. a judge is obliged to score it accordingly. However; where a round is close but a judge favours one fighter over another he might make a note of this in the margin of the score card and wait the outcome of the second round before committing a score. applying it retrospectively.

for instance....10.10 dot to jamal

round two the judge feels jamal won it. therefore; its appropriate to make a judgement albeit retrospectively upon round one. Not adjusting your score cards makes reviewing them later on very difficult.

Thai scoring favours the better conditioned fighter. One who comes stronger as the fight progresses. Im sure likening it to a race is confusing. whereas we've all seen action movies where the hero is all but beat when revitalised by the thought of his family being brutalised by the baddies leaps to his feet and wins.

Its worth noting that title fights ideally judges are obliged to score each round and hand their cards in after each round....Which makes dotting and retrospective application of score difficult

James I agree with u that all rds should be scored
Not just the last 2

If we involve ourselves personally with our positions, we will have a harder time being objective about them. That lack of objectivity can prolong a disagreement needlessly. Try to view your position not as “your” position, but merely “a” position. In the same way, if you have an issue with someone else’s position, make clear that your concern is with the issue, not with the person, if that’s the case.

Treating people with respect — even those with whom you disagree — can earn you respect in return and gives your position more credibility :-)

Good Post mate

And while I am in a philosophical mood:

'A professor visited a Zen master to enquire about Zen. As the master was speaking the professor kept interupting with his own opinions. So the master served some tea. He overfilled the cup and tea went everywhere. The professor shouted "the cup is full, there is no room for more tea!" The master replied "like this cup, your mind is so full of its own opinions, there is no room for anything new, in order to taste my tea, you must first empty your cup.'

A lesson perhaps all of us on here should follow :-)

If you understand, things remain the same, if you don't understand, things remain the same

the star is bollox. if he won the round he won it. star dont mean shit.
when Daitan gonna defend the belt and who agains?
he should fight jordan Watson

shaking hands all the way unless you are in thailand and meet a thai person then its polite

Can't be arsed explaining it, reason is you don't wanna learn so why ask questions you are all full of how you think it should be scored, instead of how it is scored as I said before take up K1 if you don't like the scoring criteria.
And just to clarify I asked a well known former 2x stadium champion to watch the fight he verified Daiton won also Tony has done the same asked well known thai officials who judge and ref in the stadiums every week and they have all said the same ??? What is wrong with you narrow minded people you ave been in the game 5 mins and suddenly you are all experts :-/

Beaty -

Are you I'm narrow minded because I would like to see the fights scored to what is WRITTEN?

Why are we narrow minded to think that maybe some of our top fighters could actually earn a comfortable living from FIGHTING!

i recon james been in game longer than all of us

Recon you could be right Liam this guy deffo runs a gym is it Cornwall?

* in

Not so surprising the 2x stadium champ gave it to Daiton. They wont be scoring round 1 & 2 will they.

If you've not watched the fight why comment?

in reply to the dot or * or tick ( all mean the same)
basically you have your eye favouring them slightly but not enough a margin to score it a 10-10 clean and not enough to score it a 10-9 clean
my scoring was explained and if you "add" the points
NO it doesnt add up lol
but its not about that..... bear with me on this........


basically as i mentioned like 2 people running round a track 5 laps yes???

red corner ( runner 1)
blue corner (runner 2)
1st lap blue beats red
2nd lap, again blue beats red
3rd lap again blue beats red

ok so whose winning the Race ? (fight)?

yes Blue

now the bell goes for the 4th: lap (round)
Blue knows hes winning
(so does red )
so red steps it up as Blue has tired from 3 GOOD laps (rounds)
red gets the 4th: lap (round)
same again in the 5th:
red crosses the line first (wins the round)

Q? whose won???


I think its clear to All



meanwhile back in the dressing room or on the Podium or as the trophies are presented

Blue (fighter) runner leans across and says
BUT " i smashed it and beat you laps (rounds) 1 2 3

red smiles and leans back and whispers

" but i beat you across the line" ( i finished the strongest )



hope this helps :-)

p.s. so YES you must have the First 3 laps / rounds to get to the 2 most important laps / rounds !

how can you not have 1 2 3 ??? lol

Sandy Holt -

For them to the win the race they need to run real hard in lap 4 and 5 which is the equivalent of a 10-8 rnd!

So you can win a FIGHT with 2 rnds out of the 3 .

I'm sure none us would disagree with that!