ok i hear you say another topic on this again?

well so be it :) as again and again it rears its "fugly" head :-p
in Muay thai
yes its Not the same as Boxing scoring
yes its Not the same as FC
yes its Not the same as mma
Yes its Not the same as K-1
yes its Not the same as kickboxing

And YES they are Not the same either lol


Ok seeing as its going off and on re: the Daitan jackson v French Fighter re: Scoring im going to do a simple anylsis
below

hope it helps
enjoy :)

and explaining the "dot" on the score sheets too re: the dot or * or tick ( all mean the same )
basically you have your eye favouring them slightly but not enough a margin to score it a 10-10 clean and not enough to score it a 10-9 clean
also scoring re points added up? if you "add" the points
NO it doesnt add up sometimes lol
But its not about that..... bear with me on this........ see below


Basically its like 2 people running round a track 5 laps yes??

red corner (runner 1)
blue corner (runner 2)
1st lap blue beats red
2nd lap, again blue beats red
3rd lap again blue beats red

ok so whose winning the Race ? (fight)?

yes Blue

now the bell goes for the 4th: lap (round)
Blue knows hes winning
(so does red )
so Red steps it up as Blue has tired from 3 GOOD laps (rounds)
red gets the 4th: lap (round)
same again in the 5th:
Red crosses the line first (wins the round)

Q? whose won???


I think its clear to All



meanwhile back in the dressing room or on the Podium or as the trophies are presented

Blue (fighter) runner leans across and says
BUT " i smashed it and beat you laps (rounds) 1 2 3

red smiles and leans back and whispers

" but i beat you across the line" ( i finished the strongest )



hope this helps :-)

p.s. so YES you must have the First 3 laps / rounds to get to the 2 most important laps / rounds !

how can you not have 1 2 3 ??? lol

Simple scoring is a 10 point system where you score every rnd individually !

I've got to say that Sandy's analogy has cleared a lot up for myself with regards thai scoring, even though i don't like it or find the scoring practical. Just my opinion, but a 10pt must scoring system is so easy for 'most' to understand. I also think it's more fair.

What about two fighters starting at equal points but opposite ends of the running track. If you catch the other fighter you get to beat the sh*t of of them! :-)

i dont think quite correct, title fights in thailand are scored each rnd , cards handed in at the end of each rnd

if red corner knocks down blue in first rnd( blue recieves an eight count) red wins 10- 8 or they score 10 10 with a tick to red (dont think so)

red wins clearly second rnd, and third, remember cards handed in et the end of each rnd even in lumpinee

blue comes out and wins rnd 4

who wins????, regarless of rnd 5

sometimes your analogy dosent work



one other point if you constantly score first two rnds 10 10 with a star or tick, then you would get a 50 point result in many fights !!
in many years of watching fights at lumpinee i have never heard a 50 score ie won or drawn every rnd , never

What if we compare it to a race like you say Sandy .

Rnd 1 Red 10 ( 10 miles ) Blue 9 ( 9 miles )
Rnd 2 Red 10 ( 10 miles ) Blue 9 ( 9 miles )
Rnd 3 Red 10 ( 10 miles ) Blue 9 ( 9 miles )
Rnd 4 Red 9 ( 9 miles ) Blue 10 ( 10 miles )
Rnd 5 Red 9 ( 9 miles ) Blue 10 ( 10 miles )

Blue finished stronger but who crossed the finish line first?

WTF.............

Hah lol........ seen this before. Makes me giggle lol

You never seen a 50 score in Thailand Peetee? Seriously? They happen all the time!

So what's the motivation for fighters to even try in the first few rounds?

To get a ko/tko? Liam started fast against Kulebin and got it early on.
It's not often fighters go out with a plan to beat the opponent on points!
The feeling out process can expose openings to be taken advantage of.
Plus James if you change the miles to seconds blue wins by one lol

robin shephard jai

Rnd 1 Red 10 ( 10 secs ) Blue 9 ( 9 secs )
Rnd 2 Red 10 ( 10 secs ) Blue 9 ( 9 secs )
Rnd 3 Red 10 ( 10 secs ) Blue 9 ( 9 secs )
Rnd 4 Red 9 ( 9 secs ) Blue 10 ( 10 secs )
Rnd 5 Red 9 ( 9 secs ) Blue 10 ( 10 secs )

Answer?????

Red 48secs Blue 47 secs. Red wins by 1 second!

Why do you think blue wins by 1second?

in the video does he become an instructer?

the thais still put female world titles on using a 2 minute round system,yet would not for a male fighter...thats if you are lucky enough to find a stadium/ring that female fighters are allowed to touch-is this the future for our female fighters or are we staying british for that bit?

Shouldn't a fighter go out with the intention of winning every round, thus winning the majority of rounds overall shows a better performance 'overall' during the allotted time?

Liam hahah whats that? question 1 doed headguard man every block ( or know how to) a low kick?
2. Whose having the Instructor test? headguard or pad men?
3. whats the counting?





action pro YES they should imo
and i personally still have this view even with the understanding of the Muay thai scoring !
as my teaching
is thus
1. start off Strong !
2. then go stronger
3. and stronger
4. and stronger
5. and finally?.... stronger ( how can you lose lol )
then you shouldnt ever get a


oh he / she won that!
we was robbed !
they dont know how to judge !
or they cant score "over there"


lol

Dont Leave it for the Judges !

make it easy for the judges i say

hi James


ref: the answer?

its in your answer

see again below

robin shephard jai

Rnd 1 Red 10 ( 10 secs ) Blue 9 ( 9 secs )
Rnd 2 Red 10 ( 10 secs ) Blue 9 ( 9 secs )
Rnd 3 Red 10 ( 10 secs ) Blue 9 ( 9 secs )
Rnd 4 Red 9 ( 9 secs ) Blue 10 ( 10 secs )
Rnd 5 Red 9 ( 9 secs ) Blue 10 ( 10 secs )

Answer?????

Red 48secs Blue 47 secs. Red wins by 1 second!

Why do you think blue wins by 1second?




Which is Faster? and winning time?
48 or 47 secs: ????
YES Blue Wins :)

is that right rob just i never heard one announced

what is your view on scoring in the uk?

in the upcoming fight between liam and saenchai say liam wins the first 3 rounds one with a 10 - 8 score as saenchai takes a count, saenchai comes back wins rnd 4, he also takes rnd 5 with defensive jab and push kicks, who wins, saenchai

wining rnd 4 is winning the fight right ??

well this is the scenario i see every week here in thailand

still love watching them fight though

yeh would guestimate you will get at least one 50-47 on every card, the most common score by far is 49-48, which would work out at first two rounds even and winner taking two of the other three rounds, you see a fair few 49-47 also if fight not so close.

The whole scoring issue is a tough one and i can see both sides points, I think if you want to score it as Muaythai then the Thai way of scoring should be the benchmark if you want to call it Muaythai, on the other side of the coin though, there is no denying whatsoever that the system used today is badly flawed and slowly killing the sport off. The crowds are nowhere near what they were 15 years ago and purses for fighters half of what they were back then. Your average Thai that doesn't want to gamble has no interest in going to watch when a lot of the fights literally as you say have two guys that hardly fight for first two rounds, up the action a little in the third, have a strong round 4 and then spend the final round dancing around waving there arms a bit and grinning at each other. Or you get a guy score well with Muaythai technique for 3 rounds, but in round 4 get dumped on the canvas by brute force once or twice and that costs them the fight. The Muaythai press in Thailand has articles on this often, complaining what was once an art is turning into glorified wrestling. Many gym owners walk away confused after fights as to how their boxers lost, you have things like what they call Naa sua that has too strong an influence on the fight, where a fighter from a certain camp or with a certain sponsors name, being harder to beat than a boxer from a small relatively unknown camp out in the sticks, say a boxer from a big name camp with a strong reputation and known for betting big, the opponent from the smaller camp will have to do more to beat him. Often camps complaining about the odds being too strong, sometimes a boxer winning every round clearly, but the other boxer being more favored by the gamblers having the odds still in his favor.
We had a boxer fight on a Onesongchai show this week and at the morning weigh in was sat with Songchai and a few gym owners and Songchai himself said if he had his way he would have the boxers fight so they had no influence from outside the ring, and the judges sat ringside unable to hear or see what the gamblers were doing odds wise, have it so the fights were scored every round and again scored with no outside influence.Some of the points being brought up here by people about how it is scored are the same being brought up here all the time by Thai's and the evidence looks pretty clear that it isn't particularly working to sell the sport to people outside of those purely coming to bet. There is a small trend now here too to make the fights 3 rounders and when you talk to people behind it they all say the same thing, it makes the fighters fight from the off and makes the fights more exciting to watch, this isn't just coming from the people that promote these fights, its coming from experienced judges saying the same thing.

That is an excellent post by Rob, it is one that is at the heart of the issue. An issue I personally have wrestled with here and continue to do so, as do others. Those of us here who judge fights try to take the middle way in terms of applying Thai scoring criteria. What I mean is we want athletes to develop genuine Muay Thai skills as opposed to generic stand up skills, we want UK fighters to fight with and be rewarded for fighting using the art of Muay Thai.

Mr Songchai's son when doing PhD on promoting the sport asked my opinion on what I felt needed to happen for the sport. Some people here may be surprised that I said, get celebrities Thai youth engaged with seen at ringside, create celebrities of boxers using the media, so people were interested in their personalities and if they won or lost, and score the whole fight. I am not a fan of just automatically scoring the first two rounds a draw, but do still feel you can score the fight successfully as marathon. Even when both boxers fight from the off, the early rounds are still often close because they are either cautious or both full of energy and strong. I also said while I am of the opinion throwing a boxer down should be considered in the overall decision, throwing a boxer a couple of times should mean that boxer wins just of itself.

As much as we try to be as faithful as possible toThai scoring here (essential for me so it is not a different sport), gambling does not influence judges here, one or two throw down does not win the fight (although it will count towards that boxer's score), and all rounds are considered, but the first rounds are likely to be close with judges being cautious to award points to early so that they can judge the development of the whole fight.

I have spoken to many judges who say similar things. I remember my own teacher asking a judge to explain how Sanchai had won when he fought Petchboonchu and Sakeddaow together. The judge could not answer clearly. I think here, judges can explain their decisions, and I think that is important.

While I am not a fan of a caricatured scoring system, I think we want to be close enough to what happens in the stadiums that we do not get some of the embarrassments we have had in the past, where Thai boxers have come here and clearly won under Muay Thai scoring, yet been awarded a loss because what was being judged was not Muay Thai. Equally we want to develop skills in our boxers here that mean they can win on points in Thailand and have the skills to make them international reputations in the sport. I actually think we have done a good job of that, but it is still work in progress.

thanks for the insight rob, i think this might suprise a few people back home

what i tried to say in previous posts about gambling playing a major part in who wins a fight here, this cannot transcend to the uk as there just is no gambling

i still love watching two top fighters going toe to toe

tony i think you have done a great job with educating people on how to score, you certainly opened my eyes and judging seems to be far better on most shows than 15 years ago

Rule 16 - The point scoring
• in any particular round there shall be 5 full points at the end of each round, 5 points will be awarded to the better boxer and lesser points. The loser in that round according to the winning or losing margin. If the fight is a draw, each boxer shall be awarded 5 points. Upon the end of the competition, the referee shall declare the boxing who receive the most total points the winner
•points shall be given for the typical Thai boxing actions for example the competitor can punch, kick, thrust a kick against, hammer the opponent etc in whatever way but they must confirm to Thai boxing style. The awarding of points depends on the rules and fighting method of Thai boxing, namely:
•the number of punches, kicks, thrusting kicks, hammers etc the judges shall have to consider the force and impact of such blows.
•defense and counter attack or the ability to block or avoid the opponent’s fist, knees, and feet, namely getting out of harm’s way
•the attacking approach and the attacking techniques should be judged whether conformed to Thai boxing style. Any one who tries to punch, kick, hammer etc should have a certain advantage.
•skills and crisp actions. The more skillful boxer who can use feet, knee and elbow crisply should have an upper hand.
•when the referee judge cautions any particular boxer for a foul, deduct ½ point by giving the hand signal to the score judges.

The points score should fulfill the following criteria:
•in the round which ends in a draw, each side is awarded 5 points.
•the winner in a very closely fought round receives 5 points, the loser 4 ½ points.
•the winner by a far margin in each round receives 5 points, the loser 4 points.
•the winner who lands his attack very clearly throughout the round and knocks down his opponent once shall be awarded 5 points, the loser 3 ½ points.
•the winner who so dominate the whole round and knock down the opponent more than once shall receive 5 points, the loser 3 points.


Rule 17 - The proper and point-scoring actions
The scoring of points in Thai boxing is done by boxing in conformity with the style of Thai boxing. The competitor shall hit, punch, kick, thrust kick, hammer, stab a kick against the opponent etc in whatever way so as to drain the opponent’s strength. The awarding of points follows the principle of rule 16.

billybigconkers where are those rules from ??

think they use the ten point system everywhere in thailand, i might be wrong ?

whats a hammer represent ??

Cheers Peetee, we can only keep trying to do our best to keep developing here.

Those rules look to be old ones to me. As far as I am aware it has been a long time since the 5 point system was used. That said, we could legitimately call the system currently used in western boxing and Muay Thai, the three point system. It it only tradition in western boxing and Muay Thai that the system calls itself the '10 point must system', as in reality the full 10 points are never used and in the main (without knock downs), it is largely a binary system.

Sandy Holt -

Your saying that the winner is the fighter with the least amount of points? Now I understand why the public need educating!


Rob -

Great Post .

The crowds in Thailand are nowhere what they were 15yrs ago so we mimic what they are doing to take our sport forward?

Just been watching a K1 fight, maybe Tony can answer a question of mine..

If a fighter gets dropped, can the ref help him to his feet?

If a fighter gets dropped and the ref allows him to get up should the ref only start counting because the opposing corner man tells him to??

Cant wait to see the response to this 1!! lol x

rd 10 10 tick to red
rd2 10 9 to red
rd3 10 9 to red
rd 4 9 10 to blue
rd5 9 10 to blue
the fight is all square but red has a tick to say he has had a slightly better rd,so therefore red should win,but he would not win as rd 4 and rd 5 are seen as the most important rds to win,i dont agree with it but thats whats happening

So red started stronger and the fight finished a DRAW yet Blue wins???

Well why would someone concede in rnd 5 if it's so important then?

those rules are from panya kraitus and dr pitisuk kraitus's book, muay thai-the most distinguished art

tony myers is in the book along with tony moore

my interpretation of those rules is there is no mention of this finishing stronger win 1 round at the end and win the fight rubbish

it seems if you've bashed someone up for 4 rounds and they have a strong 5th you should still win the fight

punches score along with any other legitimate/authentic muay thai technique although they score less than a knee, kick or elbow in a like for like situation as the punch displays less skill than the other weapons

A fighter should only be counted if obviously hurt (Eyes,wobbling feet ect). Even a flash knockdown shouldnt score in thai if the fighter gets back up straight away.


If anyone still has concerns scoring ask Tony Myers or Liam Robinson/chris podesta and any of the other top judges.

Tony when you come on next please answer my questions above, I know that this 1 is supposed to be the mauy thai scoring and my questions are in regards to K1, or anybody else can answer for that matter..

Then I will tell you which K1 fight i am reffering too and then maybe you can talk me through the fight lol..

Cheers

You wouldn't happen to be talking about a Main Event fight would you Mike?

hahahaha fooking hell james, you seeing things like me mate haha

oh and 1 more question,

can the guy keep kneeing if he isnt actually in a clinch, but hands on top of the head??

1 second rule in clinch for knee's, right? but what if there isnt a clinch going on??

Mike Hill -

I just look at what is written not interpreted!

Are we going to start scoring throwing to the floor highly soon as well?

I thought throughs where high scorring lol, thats why im not a judge i dont understand it

Hi Mike

As you say the thread is about Muay Thai scoring, Nevertheless, since you asked the question, I am more than happy to talk you through my refereeing decisions if it helps in some way.

Not sure which fight you are refereeing to, but it sounds like you felt I had made a refereeing mistake. Well you may be right, I have certainly made mistakes when refereeing over the years. I have refereed for more than 20 years and have refereed countless fights at all levels and in different countries. I will have made mistakes over that period and hopefully learned from them. That said, I am more likely to be critical of my own refereeing performance than anyone else is likely to be (Muay Thai though really rather than K1). I have rarely, if ever, refereed a bout where I felt I could not have done something better.

If I make a mistake in counting, I hope I always make the mistake of counting too early rather than too late. As for counting or not counting, if I initially think a fighter is ok I may not count them (e.g. they spring back to their feet with eyes clear), but if they then show signs of being hurt or being unsteady I will count them. Irrespective of whether another boxer has hit them again or not. If I think a boxer has gone down as the result of a foul, I would also not count them.

What I will say is that a corner person shouting would not influence my decision to count or not to count. Whatever it may look like to an observer, I can guarantee that that has never been the case. I have made decisions in refereeing and in judging over the year some popular and some not, but they were always my decisions and were made with the best intentions.

James, if you read my post above you will be aware that here in the UK we do not strive to follow the elements of Muay This scoring that have become caricatured in Thailand by gambling. Gambling is not an issue here and it does not influence bouts or the decisions of judges here. The judging in the UK is not dissimilar to that which was used during what some have described in Thailand as Muay Thai's recent golden period (80s and 90s). What we do here in judging in the UK, is do our best to judge fights as Muay This fights rather than as if they were a generic fighting sport such as K1.

To quote a Thai (national) coach resident in the UK, "iMuay Thai should be judged as Muay Thai, the sport is Muay Thai and not Muay farang".

Great post tony!

Thank you Robin.

Cheers tony, yes good post, it did answer some questions.

The fight I was reffering to was the barnhill fight.

I like rick, so I was gutted when he lost, it was defo the best fight on the show.

When you say they spring to their feet, isn't that only allowed in muay thai as k1 is similar to boxing, gloves touch the floor its a count unless they slip, and I also thought the ref couldn't touch the fighter unless he is back on his feet..

Thanks again Tony

wow great post Rob Cheers mr Cox (and Tony )

the bag of Worms spreads lol

Mike, just out of curiosity and as an observation; I am assuming you already knew whether Tony made a mistake or not as with your experience (especially as running a professional Sports Folio business) you would also know the scoring criteria regarding K1. As Tony has indicated above,, mistakes are made ( I have made plenty and always try to learn from them). Again, as an observation, and I am sure you will clarify, instead of asking the question in a more direct manner, you instead posed it over several 'leading' questions in a row finally ending in the one which obviously was your original point.
What I would like to ask, bearing in mind this is a public forum and you run a professional business that is trying to assist in the growth of Muay Thai (amongst other sports). Why wouldn't you either;
1. Ask this question more directly on here, rather than build a 'web' of questions?
2. E-mail Tony directly?

I ask because I read the following from you:
'Cant wait to see the response from this 1 lol!!! X'
'Then I will tell you which fight I am reffering (referring) to then maybe you can talk me through the fight lol'
'Hahahaha fooling hell James, you seeing things like me mate lol'

I am sure I am wrong but it almost seems like you were trying to trip Tony up by posing questions, the way you did, that you already had an answer, No doubt I am mistaken by my assumption that you had an agenda rather than a legitimate question, but I am sure you can see my reasoning in asking based on your above comments?
SHAUN

Hi Mike, thanks for acknowledging my post in a positive way.

Thanks Shaun too for acknowledging we all do make mistakes.

I have no issue discussing this. I am happy I made the best decision I could given what I perceived to be the situation at the time.

While I am far from an expert on K1, and tend to referee it out of necessity rather than choice, as such perhaps others are best placed to answer a general question on K1 rulings. The rule I applied in this and other K1 fights it was not to count every knock down, only those I considered to be the result of concussive blows. So I would not count boxers thrown to the canvas, kicked over without being hurt, those who slipped or fell as the result of a loss of balance etc. I am more than happy to be educated on K1 rules. So if this is not the case please let me know ( BTW that is genuine, I really am happy to be educated in this).

If I remember in that fight, there was an exchange in the clinch and as I separated the boxers (quite vigorously), I felt I had contributed to pushing a very fatigued Rick over on to the canvas as I separated the boxers. In hindsight it may well have been a combination of fatigue and actually the delayed reaction to a knee. But at the time it was not clear as my attention was on his opponent. As such, I may have even touched him to steady him, given I considered I had pushed him over. This was also the reason I did not initially count, then as I signalled the fight to start he appeared unsteady and so I counted.

While it is an unusual situation (I can only remember once before feeling I had actually pushed a boxer over), I would not have changed what I did in particular, as I have to go on the information perceived to be correct at the time.

I have been following this debate on scoring since it started with interest. I have resisted from posting until now. This forum is somewhat unique in sport. I have never found another where high profile influencial people will so readily engage in debate with fans and people who have little or no professional experience in their chosen sport. While I think it is healthy for development, it is also open to abuse.

Mike Hill, my comment to you is this, you really need to read your posts carefully before sending them (take advantage of the preview post button). As Shaun has quite correctly highlighted by paraphrasing some of your silly comments you are being very direspectful towards Tony Myers who has politely answered your questions. You add your website address after every post, I would urge you to think carefully about what you post and the adverse effect it may have on your business. As a gym owner I would not have any dealings with Sports portfolios based on the less than professional attitude you have demonstrated on this forum. I mention this to you because the UK muaythai scene is small and close knit. Others I know who do not post on this forum have already been mentioning you in a negative light based on your recent posts. This although possibly seen by some as harsh is true and intended as friendly advice, rather than an attack on you. If you really want to help push the UK muaythai scene forward as you have alluded to, being disrespectful to someone as decent and influencial as Tony Myers is not the way forward, believe me.

Neil Gribbon.

I wasn't being disrespectful guys, I was just curious how K1 ruled fights are scorred and reffed.. I'm not a judge or a ref which is why I wanted to know what was happening in that fight, things I didn't see at the show I only saw these things on youtube..

I know nothing about judging or reffing I earn a lot of money as a recruitment consultant so if somebody questions my job I will explain things to them and also my new business venture www.sportsportfolios.net

Sorry neil just read yours fully, if any job owner or promotor wanted to put on a show and I said here is 100k to put it on, would they turn me down cos of something I wrote on here? Lol

For me to promote any combat sport to big businesses I need to know everything about the sports, that's why I'm very thankfull for shaun and tony coming on here and telling me what I need to know..

www.sportsportfolios.net incase you didn't catch it before ;-)

I wasn't being disrespectful guys, I was just curious how K1 ruled fights are scorred and reffed.. I'm not a judge or a ref which is why I wanted to know what was happening in that fight, things I didn't see at the show I only saw these things on youtube..

I know nothing about judging or reffing I earn a lot of money as a recruitment consultant so if somebody questions my job I will explain things to them and also my new business venture www.sportsportfolios.net

i spoke at lenght this morning with some one asking why such a dynamic exciting sport was not more readily embraced by the public. And indeed why it was dying a slow death.

I answered by saying that i believed the ambiguity of the scoring was the root issue. I feel money, marketing and exposure also play their part but the principle crux lies in the scoring.

All popular sports that succeed are basically simple to assimilate. Football for instance despite its huge rule book and nuances is basically two teams of between 5 and 11 men and the winner has the team that puts a leather ball into the others net more times.

Thai Boxing could be as simple. All techniques score equally provided they show effect. If a technique is thrown and answered equally then no score. An unanswered strike showing effect scores. A stronger effect beats a weaker one scores. Its really that simple. Then the assumtion of effect rears its head and it all goes pear shaped in the publics eyes.

I feel the scoring is adequate without too much change. All we need to do is adhere faithfully to whats written rather than what isnt written and commonly practiced.

Just my opinion though so any better ideas gratefully acknowledged

good and fair post mr crofty

Hi Dave, a well considered post as usual, but I do feel the rule argument almost faltered in comment made by the person you cited who posed the question “why such a dynamic exciting sport was not more readily embraced by the public?” I would argue that the reason it is a dynamic and exciting sport is because of the rules and the skills of the fighters training to win by those rules.

Nevertheless, I agree with you that rules in a sport can have a bearing on popularity, and certainly when sports have mainstream appeal they do consider rule modifications to increase popularity further. However, I am not sure that the evidence is there that it is these rule tweaks that actual make the sport popular. I have considered the point you make a number of times, as I feel it is a reasonable one. Nevertheless, given evidence from other sports and for Muay Thai here in the past I do not think changing the rule would make a real difference.

While I have considered these arguments previously a number of times, as I am sure others have. I have come to the conclusion that scoring is not holding back the sport here in the UK, in actual fact it could be argued that it has contributed to improving the standard of fighters here.

I have been told by some top MMA fighters that scoring is not that clear in MMA, with judges' backgrounds tending to influence the weight they give to different aspects of the game, some placing more weight on take downs, other less so. A lack of clarity does not appear to have held back what is fast becoming a very popular and very well marketed product.

I really don’t think a rule change would make a real difference in regard to mass popularity, throwing loads of cash at it and good marketing might (but remember many millions were spent to make MMA popular). I am really not convinced making Muay Thai even more similar to a current product (K1 style kickboxing) would mean that it was going to be more popular. In fact it might be argued distinctiveness might make Muay Thai a reasonable alternative.

I do feel there are ways in which the sport could be become far more popular, but it would need serious investment, perhaps some repackaging and re-branding, but I think the actual rules used would make little difference.

For me to increase popularity you have to get the public emotionally involved with the athletes, they have to care enough to watch them, care enough if they win or lose. That may mean they intensely dislike some them or love them, but whatever the emotion involved they need to be engaged with the competitors. White-collar boxing is popular at a local level, not because of the rules or the standard of fighting (which is often very poor), but because people want to see those they have an emotional connection with compete, and either get hurt, humiliated or win.

Although the Internet offers a cheaper way they ever to gain some exposure, to get athletes enough exposure to a more mainstream public would take some serious cash or connections in the mainstream media.

I concur with Tony on the above points. Emotional involvement is a major contribution regarding all sports, Football being a prime example. The top sports in the World; Football, Boxing, Golf, Formula 1, snooker all have major sponsorship deals, investment, branding and exposure. Martial arts, per se, have been niche sports, regarding mainstream, for decades.
PKA Kickboxing had some major exposure in the USA in the 80's but dried up by the 90's. UFC & K1 have had major investment and marketing and therefore have been succesful in reaching some mainstream audience. However, even though they have been a great success they still fall short of the great pay days of World championship boxing by a long way and it is unlikely they will have the following of football.
Good marketing is definitely the key and of course mainstream exposure (TV, newspapers)
If you read the sports pages of any National paper in the West when do you see a Muay Thai, MMA or Kickboxing bout reported on ( with the exception of Alex Reid). They are still not 'Mainstream' sports. K1 & MMA are our highest paid and most exposed but again not in the echilons of Boxing, Football etc.

In saying all this, there has been improvement in shows and exposure certainly in the last 3 years. Our danger of course is offering too much in the way of different stand up rule sets for generic sports such as MMA, K1, kickboxing etc and therefore diluting what we have. Muay Thai being a niche sport has its own rule set and, like Tony says, this should not change as it works for our sport, it's how we base our strategies and techniques upon. Imagine how football would change strategically if you removed the off side rule or allowed the use of the hands to block a ball.
SHAUN
SHAUN

Has anyone actually tried a proper betting system at a show? That would certainly get people to care who wins lol

lol we need it :)woukld attract more money to the sport imo

Seeing all these post im getting more and more excited about next year..

This year is great working with top businesses but as most of them have spent up for the financial year and already spent alot of money with me on the Recruitment side of the business they are already putting agreenments in place with me for the next financial year..

The betting system sounds great, why try and set one up ourselves when there are hundreds of established bookies out there?!

roll on 2013 ;-)

and again www.sportsportfolios.net x

As ever with intelligent debate the argument moves forward without friction. I agree the rules do not need changing. They just need to be adhered to more rigidly. If that means adding a paragraph on the assumption of effect then so be it.

And the point about passion is of course on the money. But I still maintain the public (by that I refer to the not currently involved directly but able to buy a ticket to watch public) will only get excited about a sport when they know the rules. typically draughts is more popular than chess due almost entirely to the effort needed to grasp the rules.

Im playing the devils advocate here and really feel comfortable with the rules (after a period of personal re education) but if pushed still feel simpler rules = greater accessibility to the paying masses. We have an elitist sport on our hands. Our next move as an industry needs to be considered carefully. However; I gladly conceed thanks in no small part to Tony the standard of scoring and adherence to the rules (written of implied) has led to an increase in standards generally in the UK

I dissagree with the part about the public only getting excited if they know the rule..

Look at UFC, 90% of the fans dont know the rule but it sells out everytime, listen to the fans when a fight goes to the ground for too long, a lot of boo's going on, the ground work is a big part of MMA.

its how the promotors promote the event..

Don King 1 of the best salesman on the planet and promotor, the worse heavyweight he has ever had has been Nikolai Valuev yet every 1 of he's fights was sold out, Don King always had the crowds excited before the fight took place, same with Dana White, Mayweather, De la Hoya and pretty much any other promotor in the states..

All American promotrs know how to promote a show and excite the crowds, the Britihs promoting scene have never really got the crowds excited and that has always been the down fall with any combative sport over here.

I beg to differ. Not because I want to be right or indeed think you are wrong. But know that it is vital to the enjoyment of any sporting spectacle if you are aware of whats trying to be achieved.

In this regard Marketing plays a huge role. UFC, Boxing, Football etc enjoy huge marketing impetus. TV programmes with pundits debating the rules etc.

Thai Boxing has none of these advantages. So clearly defined set of rules is a must. Thats all im saying. And yes simple rules make spectating easier and give more margin to enjoy the spectacle.

Yes marketing does play a big part! and yes thai boxing does have this now and it will get bigger www.sportsportfolios.net lol..

oh and this isnt just for muay thai by the way..

oh and i am sticking by my other comments, the way a show is promoted to the public plays a big part, you dont see any ecitement in Muay Thai, you dont see any promotors on news channels building an audience..

and it also needs an amateur scene, with how many interclubs are going on charging fighters £6 to participate just to line the pockets of the gym owner with 100 fights on lol, we could set up an amateur seen like boxing and have min 1 on every week building muay thai bringing new fighters through and building the sport, also the amateur scene would then allow muay thai to get in to the olympics

UKMF & IFMA run the amateur 'scene' in the UK

that all comes under marketing does it not? all im saying is that if? the rules are easily grasped by the paying public then the job of the marketeer is made easier.

I certainly dont disagree with what you are saying just observing an under lying suspicion i hold that overly complicated rules (relatively speaking)is a major factor in the mainstream acceptance of muay thai. If im wrong then congratulations guys we're sat on a goldmine and are all getting filthy rich very soon..............Joking apart i want your vision to be the one that succeeds. Its a great sport. But it needs to evolve if it wants a bigger audience

It could be set up better, like boxing, make a rule and law that every fighter must have a minimum x ammount of am fights before turning pro, my thought anyways.. also a law that a pro fighter must MUST be licenced before fighting pro, and all fighters must show licences at events they fight on..

when i fight in sept it will be my first fight in 4 years where i have acctualy had a licence lol, so things do need a propper set up..

Cheers Dave, that last post i liked alot, i am working from home today blasting the phones on sports portfolios and with what you just said it will make me work harder..

My vision will succeed mate, im working too hard for it to fail ;-)

A successful man is one who can lay a firm foundation with the bricks others have thrown at him.

love that 1 Shaun! and very true, infact i love that comment that much im gonna nicking it lol

Be my guest Mike, could be your companies mantra ;-)

Chock dee mate

Dave Croft -

Great posts chief.

How can you class what we are watching at the minute as Dynamic and exciting?

We fight 2rnds out of 5
We assume that the body kick causes effect so scores more than other techniques showing effect .
Then we are now going as far as conceding defeat in the final rnd because of losing on points!

all techniques are scored equal if shown with EFFECT
and remember Judges and spectators "feel no pain" at a Muay Thai fight !

not really sandy i went to a show in leeds a few months ago,in rd 3,one fighter hit the other with a right straight it made his head go back and he had a swelling and black eye straight away,he then moved in to finish him of but was caught with a front kick which never hurt him but put him down,after the fight i asked one of the judges who won rd 3 they said the front kick won it because it scores more than a punch,so i am being led to beleive,body kicks front kicks and knee are big scores,boxing and low kicks are not,strange because in my carear i was hurt by low kicks punches and knee,not front kicks and body kicks.

Punching someone and giving them a black eye doesnt show as effective Muay Thai technique as putting them on their backside with a push kick. Doesn't matter whether it hurt or not.

kinda just getting to understand the scoring of thai,myself i thought they would score the front kick more than the punch thats why i asked,

The teep showed more 'effect' as it off balanced the opponent, had he teeped and the opponent not been moved or off balancedit would have been different as it didnt show 'effect' by effect we mean visibly moving or off balancing an opponent.

ok JT i see your point
but again you have see what you said there
and "effect" wasnt as prevalent with the punch
his head snapped back !!! and ??????????????????


then the Teep front kick sent the other guy flying an his ass !



Q? if ya see some1 in a pub get a one arrow ( Bolton speak for a stiff right hander) and his head snaps back and you see a big cut? or bruise? but hes still stood there

then goes Bang and kicks a guy over?



who looks like they winning the "SCRAP"





simple answer isnt it !!!!!!!!!!!!!! the guy on his ass is NOT winning

jt (johnny t ) you might get it when i show / speak Bolton Speak lol
Leaders / followers
Catch up lol r.e.s.e.p.e.c.t :-p :)





simple answer isnt it !!!!!!!!!!!!!! the guy on his ass is NOT winning