Does anybody actually no how muay Thai is scored!? In the uk I've been to many Thai boxing shows in the last 2/3years in the uk and can never understand how the judges score fights and how they give the decisions they give!
Recent posts shows how finishing the fights stronger wins you the fight, e.g
Blue wins 1st
Blue wins 2nd
Blue wins 3rd
Red wins 4th
Red wins 5th
( blue looses ?? ). I can understand this if they are both going hell for leather with each other for all these rounds and the red is showing more dominant at the end , but not if red takes a smashing 1 - 2 and 3 and in 4 and 5 just throws to score because that isn't being dominant!?

Also I have heard that rounds 1 - 2 don't even get scored so if that's the case y can one corner win 1-2-3 ?? Just fight 3 rounds!!?

Then on to the scoring what scores better than what? What actually scores? I've heard low kicks dont score body kicks do? All body kicks the hard ones or the flicks or all!?
What if blue throws a body kick, red side steps and catches the kick and moves in at takes blues standing leg off balances him but doesn't floor him who scores higher!!?

To me Thai boxing In the uk is unbelieveably corrupt , the amount of talking/confering/textin between judges is a absolute joke they should be watching the rounds and scoring the rounds that's it!!?

Can anyone answer these questions!!?

What if blue throws a body kick, red side steps and catches the kick and moves in at takes blues standing leg off balances him but doesn't floor him who scores higher!!?

blue scores the highest because he is shown to be the stronger boxer (balance, control) because he had his leg caught and defused the attack to take him to the floor

all rounds are scored.

just the last 2 are watched closely and both boxers should be going out to win these last 2 rounds to finish the stronger boxer

i think its done to build the fight up for spectators too. notice how with each round of fighting the music tempo speeds up building for a spectacular last round crescendo.
other theories are placed on the effect it has on gambling

regardless i think with a basic understanding of the rules and what scores its fairly easy to see whos won or not.
its just when a fight is close that it gets complicated, but then again what sport isnt in that circumstance!

thai boxing is bespoke in its rules, scoring, the pace and timing, the fact that it has music etc.
instructors/fighters/students in the uk have a better understanding of the scoring now than ever, its still a way off reaching your average spectator but its not going to be a quick task.

Some nice feed back there thanks alot, still have loads of other scoring things that would like to be answered.
Is muay Thai scored on scoring straight up or effect? Flicky body kicks hitting arms/body still score the same as a full wack body kick to the arms/body !?
Do low kicks score ?
A boxer throwing a hand combination finishing with a big low kick yet getting flicked with a body kick straight after the low kick lands who scores higher !?
Thanks for the feedback

in a nut shell
all shots score. kicks tend to score slightly higher than punches because the hand is padded by a glove, also it requires more skill to land a good knee or kick than haymakers lol.

flicks to a target wont score. it must have effect (moving the opponent off balance, opponent showing pain etc) OR upon the judges opinion be thrown and landed clean with power (a hard kick to the body may not move the opponent like a hard leg kick would move the leg)

"A boxer throwing a hand combination finishing with a big low kick yet getting flicked with a body kick straight after the low kick lands who scores higher !? "

in my opinion the boxer had thrown the combo and low kick would score higher but being able to return straight away will not harm the other guys chances as much.

what am i letting myself in for here lol..someones going to come on in a moment and say NO!!!! ROBIN YOUR WRONG!!!!!!!

Just out of interest are there any Thai judges or organisation reps answering to these threads, as they'd be able to give a more useful insight into how they score?

Haha don't worry about it tbh I think your view on it is absolutely spot on however it isn't done like that on shows Ive been to! Just a quick shout was at the
Main event (biggest event In uk) obviously the fight that stood out was the Paul Katowicz v Darren o"conner title fight a lot of booing after the fight and I can understand y . Katowicz wasnt hurt at any time in that fight by any of the shots landed . Oconner threw a lot of body kicks however they were very Flicky not effective !? There was a cut with a elbow and a lot of powerful shots thrown by karpowicz. The commentator was going on about the body kicks Oconner was throwin but non were thrown with great impact or even landing clearly.
This is where my ????? Have come from after watching that fight back on YouTube and listening to what the commentators were saying about that yet the fight after that Liam harrison I think obviously he won by stoppage but all he was throwing was low kicks ?
I'm just lost with what scores what , what beats what .
I think it's just how the judge feels on the day and who there goin to favour!

MUAYTHAI90 writes:
'To me Thai boxing in the UK is unbelievably corrupt' That is a very profound and accusatory question Muaythai90 may I ask what you are basing these accusations upon?

Regarding Judges and referees answering on these threads Ax is very fortunate and unique in that there are many of us who take time to debate and answer questions given. There are several threads that are discussing scoring in Muay Thai on here at the moment and a lot of questions are being answered. However our time is best served improving the understanding of the scoring and the quality of officials within Muay Thai. This is being done as I write this and I will be opening a new thread regarding this at some point in late August.

MUAYTHAI 80 writes:
'the amount of talking/confering/textin between judges is a absolute joke they should be watching the rounds and scoring the rounds that's it!!?'

Again, a statement that is directed at your perceived notion that all officials in Muay Thai are not only corrupt but also do not watch the fights to actually judge them. I am concerned as to why you would say this? and again what you base your accusations upon?

What shows have you seen this happen?

The officials that I work with are highly experienced, qualified and professional so I am not concerned that it is any of them.

Anyhow, corruption aside, lol, we are working very hard to bringing the Muay Thai community something very beneficial very soon, so please be patient.

SHAUN

Hey Muaythai90,
I guess you are new to Ax but over the years this subject has been covered in much depth.

In answer to your question "Does anyone know how to score Muay Thai?" Of course the answer is yes. There are literally hundreds (if not more) people in the UK who now have a decent handle on correct Muay Thai scoring.

That's mostly down to Tony Myers and the numerous seminars he has and does carry out throughout the UK.

Search back over Ax for Scoring threads and you'll find old discussions which will help you, I doubt many folk will contribute to this thread because like I said...it's all been covered before.

If you belong to a club who collectively have only a small understanding of correct scoring...have your instructor contact Tony and enquire about a seminar. I'm sure it will change the way you train too.

Good luck
Dougie
Fight Sport MC

The simple answer is all effective Muay Thai techniques score.

It is possible to score with all Muay Thai techniques; kicks,
punches, knees, and elbows. However while in theory all
techniques have the potential to score
equally in Muay Thai, in practise some
techniques do score higher than others
If a boxer can land clean kicks
and knees to the body head or
neck with good technique they
will score points regardless of
the effect they have on the opponent.
By contrast punches,
low kicks and elbows have to have
a physical effect on the opponent or
cause them to show they are hurt in
order to score.

I understand what u all have to say but this is my opinion on things that happen in Thai In this country! I do not train and do not wish to train or get involved in fighting just for the simple facts that I have stated I think there is a number of clicky people who stick together and that's where my (corrupt) talk comes from! I have witnessed cornermen in two/three different corners in one event cornermen laughing and jokin with the judges/referee just before the fight! I don't think that is on and certainly isn't professional!
Imagine going over to another country and u enter the ring then your waiting for your opponent to enter while your waiting his corner men are laughing and joking with the officials , your on the back foot straigh away!
90% of shows I watch there's always 1 dodgy decision!
If I did ever get into fight / training I most certainly wouldn't go on a judging corse to make the style I fight! I would fight with death and stop people to make sure I get the decision! Because to me if y want it that's the only way!?

I WILL FIGHT WITH DEATH....LOL
join the forces

Hmmmmmmm intelligent debate over I think LOL I'm out! ta! ta!

There is no point even putting these comments on because they just get swerved u might laugh at the coming with death but if you want a decision in this country that's how u have to train and fight by the looks of things or be part of that click that goes around. People hate this fact but guess what it's the truth people

You want another truth......your comments are baseless and without fact or proof. That's the truth

Just body kick and you will be fine, by that I mean kicks that hit the arm. So arm kick is what I meant. They score highest.

Lol......knee kick......arm kick.....that dudes a butt head

This click, biast bullshit is bullshit!!! i have seen thais come over here and they have mostly won against our lads i seen quite few internationals come over and win on points cedric muller beat a couple ben pixie burton has been over n won years back. samkor came over n won sanchai came over n won michael dicks lost two a thai on the contender eliminators 2008 the list could go on!

Im well bored of all this scoring topic Thai is scored how it is scored and thats it!

alot of people dnt get it! i do get it and its been said over n over again how it scored i dnt see what the problem is.????

it should not be changed if you dont like it or understand then dont watch it. like i dont understnad rugby n have no wish to so i dont watch it

Clearly people do know how to score, and outside of Thailand, I'd say the UK is one of the more (if not most)accurately scoring countries. Sure there's still a lot of plonkers out there saying things like "the 1st two rounds don't score", "boxing and low kicks don't score" and "whoever throws the most kicks wins" but by and large, as previously said, largely thanks to Tony Myers, the quality of judging in this country is getting far far better and the less well informed judges are being relegated to C class novice shows etc.

When it comes to any decent level of competition in this country you can be assured that the judges are well informed, and professional. Having a laugh with people they probably know very well in what is, even globally, a very small community is only understandable - it doesn't automatically mean there's a home town decision on the cards before the fights even started.

The issue tends to arise when you get Europeans or Americans fighting here or vice versa. They turn up expecting what passes for thai scoring in their country (rarely accurate Thai scoring) then flip the lid when they done get a decision after being really aggressive but getting bongoed in the clinch for a full fight. The average knowledge I've seen from a lot of very well known figures in america and across Europe is shocking and, if I had to guess, based on your english, this is where your gripe comes in.

Learn to score before passing judgement on the scoring system or, more importantly, the judges, who rarely get thanked and are almost always blamed whenever someone fights away from home. Too many people willing to blame the judges instead of just admit they were shite or their opponent was plain BETTER than them.

Blue wins 1st clear margin
Blue wins 2nd clear margin
Blue wins 3rd clear margin
Red wins 4th only slightly
Red wins 5th only slightly

blue wins

Yes lots of people know how to score Muay Thai in this country. Equally lots of people don't want to know, and in some cases more honestly don't agree with how it is scored.

If you don't get it, go on a course, if you don't agree with it, go do something thing else that uses the same strikes but is scored more to how your liking, don't try and change the sport as it is.

Just ignore this guy and let the thread die. He's a troll.
Theres a few people out there with an issue and want to pull down and discredit because their lack of achievement means theyre on the outsides of the sport. Rather than doing something positive they just try to pull everyone else down.
Theres no click in the UK just people at the top of the sport working together and a few people who want to spoil it.

Its always someone anonymous with no profile who doesnt train anywhere and just goes to watch lots if shows.

Haha a troll no I started up this blog to ask and c what the actual scoring shots were, what beats what and y , no one answered besides one person which answerd how I thort it was. But it never seems to come across that way! It took me to start making comments for people to start chirping up I only simply asked a question!? Still no answers non the wiser

ignored my post then

But you didn't just ask a question did you? You made a statement one that is accusatory in it's nature and one that would provoke a reaction (or chirping as you like to call it). So my question to you is this, if you believe, by your adamant statement, that UK Muay Thai is corrupt and the Judges are blatantly unprofessional, why do you have an interest in this sport let alone it's scoring?

Robin Shepherd and Chris Podesta (who both use their real name) answered your questions. No more to it than that.

If you arent a troll use a real name and dont come on insuling people and slagging everyone off.

Of you still dont get it take up a different sport or join a decent gym and learn properly.

Kick punch knee and elbow all score but knee and kick score higher. The fighter who dominates the round wins it. The one with most rounds wins. A close round might not count if one round sees a clear difference and a big winner. You cant win a fight by edging a round of you get battered in another round but if rounds have a clear winner they are scored and count at the end.

Mr smith I have listened to you Chris and robin and you all talk sense how u talk about the scoring is exactly how I would score a Thai boxing fight , all I was saying was I have seen time after time fighters dominate a fight exactly how you three have said it yet not get the decision!
I didn't mean the sport as a full is corrupt I shouldn't have used that word , but to me as a spectator I think there is a number of people who stick together and I don't like that side of it, not gona start naming names because it turns into a argument this is my opinion !?

I am a little confused? maybe you could offer me some clarity?

You have started a thread on wanting to know how the Sport is scored and yet in your above statement you say:
'the scoring is exactly how I would score a Thai boxing fight'

but, by the very context of your thread and questions, you do not have a full understanding of the scoring process. So surely these Judges that you infer are 'an absolute joke' are more knowledgeable than you? So when you ask the question and answers are put up on here and other threads you accuse those knowledgeable and respectful people as being in a 'clique'.
In retrospect it could be said that there is a clique of 'no names' on here (trolls live under bridges and eat naughty children so I won't label you with that name.

By the way you didn't just say the sport is corrupt you said it was 'unbelievably corrupt' so that just 'underlined' your position hence why many of the 'clique' haven't taken you too seriously.

Anyhow maybe this quote from Martin Luthor King Jr will offer you some respite:

'Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will'

May all be well with you

SHAUN

I dont consider anyone that I work with in the UK to be corrupt or biased they only want to improve and develop the sport. (I'm not suggesting that anyone who I DON'T work with IS biased or corrupt!) Its a long time since I saw a decision that I felt was either biased or dramatically incorrect. There will always be close fights that could have gone either way and partisan crowds will see it one way or the other.

None of the people that are involved in judging and refereeing in this country have any other agenda than to improve. They all come on here with real names and dont hide. Its funny that no-one who says anything negative ever uses their real name. You'll say its because everyone is in a 'click' and jumps down your throat but really its just down to having the courage speak up. Thats usually because these people have a different agenda than just expressing an honest opinion.

If the fighters use Muay Thai and are well schooled then its easy to judge and to score. The problem arises when one or both fighters have no idea how to fight and use poor technique or when one side doesnt like the decison so they blame the judges or the way it was scored. The crowd booing isnt an indication of a poor decision just which fighter was most popular.

The fight between Jackson and Jamal was a prime example. It was used by a number of people to show how in their opinion everyone in the UK was getting it wrong and killing the sport. In reality it was a poor fight with little in the way of clean Muay Thai to judge it on. It wasnt an example of what was wrong with Judging but it was an example of what's wrong with the structure and quality of fights and whats sanctioned as a 'world' title or even world class. If anything is killing the sport it isnt judging or scoring its this.

Very intimate there Shaun very nice I like it , everyone loves a good quote.
This blog is named this because I have a understanding on how it is scored this understanding is the same as the people who have answered me on hear and i am very greatful for there input! however when watching fights I have seen in the past I cannot understand how the decisions have been given clearly showing that I must be be misunderstood somewhere!? Either me having the rules wrong or people being part of a click and being in a way corrupt!?
I didn't mean the sport is corrupt I appologise how that came across I just ment like people favouring others ? If u get what I mean ??

To me Thai is scored over 5 rounds
Everything scores hands/elbows/legs/knees
Legs and knees score higher
Off balancing a opponent scores high
So does a cut
And Giving a opponent a 8 count
It is scored on effect ?

Am I correct on these things?

Good post Mr Smith:)

dude, it's "clique". I'm not a grammar nazi but fucking hell "click" is not the same thing - its a noise.

Rofl

Know not me :p

Thanks for your wisdom. Now I know.

Hi Nephillim, maybe it's actually kickboxing that he has been watching with the judges couting with clickers, the most "clicks" wins in that clique!

Absolutely hilarious mate, r u a comedian by any chance !?
Mr smith nice post I understand what you mean about sloppy fights and judges not being able to see clean shots and that , but u do have to admit as do most people there is always one dodgy decision on a show and most of them are not from a sloppy fight!

Just so we know what we are talking about, would you like to give some examples of dodgy decisions and shows?

So, you apologise on one hand for using the word corrupt and yet on the other hand replace it with the word 'dodgy', again in an accusatory way. Your hypocritical agenda speaks as many volumes about you as a person as does your poor spelling and grammar. It is unfortunate that you have a preoccupation of belief in that the UK Muay Thai scene is riddled with poor judging. As it is those very officials on here that you aim your accusations towards and are asking for advice from, do you not see the hypocrisy and futility of what you are writing on here? I judge and referee many fights as does Chris Podesta and Darren Phillips who along with me are on here trying to understand your reasoning and agenda behind your question and accusations. Like I have said before, Ax is fortunate to have experienced and qualified people who are prepared to come on here not hiding behind false names but rather to give their honest opinions and advice knowing that they open themselves up for abuse and because of this are called a 'clique'? Shame on you for not being of good standing and character and for lacking the courage to stand by what you believe in by hiding behind the rock that is your false name with only an agenda that attempts to discredit those that are helping to drive Muay Thai forwards with your baseless accusations that are really only only put on here to cause a reactory response that feeds your poor sense of ego.
It is a shame too that you will lack understanding of a lot of what I have just written and no doubt try to rebute it in a poor attempt to defend your comments.
However, I will wish you success in life and hope that you will see beyond your limitations and grow as a human being
SHAUN

Don't Hold your breath for that one!

Well said Shaun. This site is unfortunately now being populated by social misfits who deliberately make inflammatory statements to provoke arguments. As someone coming back into the sport and having just opened a gym I find this forum a superb tool for self education and I have made some very useful contacts. An increase in trolls will ruin this site for the people who legitimately want to use it.

Omg this is what I'm getting at all you lot sticking together it has taken me to call it corrupt or dodgy for you all to start commenting and defending the sport y didnt u all answer the first blog I posted ? honestly I carnt even describe what u people are!? I posted about the scoring 2 comments back and still no one has answerd that your more interested in my spelling and the fact I call it corrupt! Don't get me
Wrong I'm very great full for Mr smith , robin , Liam , and Chris for there inputt thank you!
The decisions I think have been dodgey in the last 2 shows I have been to are and by all means I respect and enjoy watching all the fighters I am talking about and I actually pay my money to go and watch them
Which is probably going towards the fighters purse!!
Daiton jacksons win last week ??
Solomans defeat at the main event ??
Karpowicz defeat at the main event ??

Explainations on these decisions would be nice ?

Sow what you're saying is that you wrote stuff that was controversial just to get a rise/response. And the fact is that you are anonymous. Look up the internet definition of Troll.

By 'dodgy' you mean you didn't agree with it. But you admit that you don't fully inderstand scoring or at least that's how you dress up your point. On any show there will be close fights that could go either way and some might not like the decision. That doesn't make th judging 'dodgy' or corrupt. There isn't a sport - boxing, football, cricket you name one where there isn't debate/discussion about the referee or judges - whther it should have been a goal/penalty/LBW etc. Nothing dodgy or wrong with any of those sports just different interpretations and opinions.

Anyway I've had enough of you now.

'You lot' are actually the instructors, coaches and officials of the sport of Muay Thai which you spectate, so when you read back what you have written, just in the opening sentence you instantly show a lack of any respect for the people you just thanked, this is the hypocrisy I am talking about.

You use words like 'dodgy' and 'corrupt' in your first 'blog' (post) on here and now your question has changed to be more specific regarding certain fights, which if you check earlier posts you will see that this has been debated to the bone:

'Daitan Jackson v Jamal Wahib on P4'
'Conceding defeat'
'Simple scoring made easy Muay Thai'

All the fights you mentioned lost on close points decisions and 3 judges awarded the fights to those, using their experience and judging criteria, that they decided won.

During this thread you wrote (paraphrased and the spelling is not mine):

'To me Thai boxing In the uk is unbelieveably corrupt , the amount of talking/confering/textin between judges is a absolute joke they should be watching the rounds and scoring the rounds that's it!!?'

'90% of shows I watch there's always 1 dodgy decision!'

'I think it's just how the judge feels on the day and who there goin to favour!'

'If I did ever get into fight / training I most certainly wouldn't go on a judging corse to make the style I fight! I would fight with death and stop people to make sure I get the decision! Because to me if y want it that's the only way!?'

'Either me having the rules wrong or people being part of a click and being in a way corrupt!?'

So I hope reading those comments helps you in understanding as to why this 'clique' is 'sticking together'

It would seem that your real beef is that you simply did not agree with the decisions of the aforementioned fights from a spectators point of view and a lack of understanding the rules.

However, instead of simply heading the topic title as that and then asking if someone would explain how these decisions were arrived at you started calling the judges corrupt and saying they chat to the corner men.

Come on, don't be naive, we are a very close knit community and we all know each other, fighters, coaches officials etc. As a referee I often go and chat to all the fighters before the show, I shake hands with the coaches and I wish both fighters the very best of luck for their fights. Does that mean I am biased or unprofessional, no. That is a silly comment from you and you know it. As I said you are either very naieve or perhaps younger than we give you credit for.

Writing down the full rules of scoring on a public forum is not going to happen, it takes more than reading rules to understand how to score. It takes training and experience in the sport as it does in any sport.

I will put together a course on how to score in Muay Thai (not a judging course) in the late summer and will have two Thais assisting me in this. That way you can physically see the scoring techniques (and fouls) first hand rather than subjectively read them.

Question is, would you attend? (You can cover yourself with a blanket if you still wish to remain incognito lol)

SHAUN

I have fuxked up saying corrupt how many times do u want me to say that! Y don't u just answer my question if u no so much explain to me each of those fights I'm sure I have seen them !

Read above comments don't just select what you want to see, all your answers are available there.

Check out these threads as mentioned already:


'Daitan Jackson v Jamal Wahib on P4'
'Conceding defeat'
'Simple scoring made easy Muay Thai'

Do you really expect anyone to spend the time to go through each fight round by round explaining how the decisions were reached with someone who wont even identify themselves? I judged two of those fights and am happy to talk through them with anyone who is seriously interested in understanding why a particular fighter won. Drop me an e-mail with your phone number and I will quite happily call you. dave.mcateer@talktalk.net

and as a postscript, no one is saying you can't have an opinion as a spectator of Muay Thai, that's part of the fun. However as a spectator your opinion is based on emotions with distractions not as a trained judge.

You use profanities (or suggestive profanities) and do not have a profile so you must expect a defensive attitude towards how you write on here. Surely you are not really that naive or are you very young?

Either way all your answers are available for you above should you choose to read them properly.

SHAUN

This thread is just unbelievable lol.

You have had replies from very well known and respected, fighters, trainers, referees and judges, very polite and reasonably patient replies IMO, yet you still don't get it!!!

I'd give it up as a lost cause if I were you guys.

Rob

'Much learning does not teach understanding'
Heraclitus
:-)

Muaythai90 -

Your not going to understand the scoring of these fights you've listed because your a SPECTATOR!

You need to be educated to understand MUAY THAI scoring even though it's really SIMPLE!

If you wish to know how the result was given in those fights then get yourself on a judges course to see how the rules are interpreted in THAILAND!

If Thai was bigger in this country and televised live onto the likes of sky/Espn, decisions would be bang on every show! End of

Ol whatever I didn't actually start by that I said that in my third blog , no1 has ever asked my name I do not use social networks ( Facebook/twitter! ) and I only starte this up because I wanted to ask a simple question look back from the start only one person answers me correctly then everyone started jumping on my back! I mentioned the word corrupt I shouldnt have I was wrong just like all you calling me a troll ??? A troll because I haven't stated my name on a blogging forum!? Really ? So who the hell is dazzathethai that's some name that is , love to see his birth certificate? Non of you no me that's y I am a TROLL lol!

Can I just have this answerd please by some one or u all sticking together again

Red wins round one
Blue wins round two (8 count)
Red runs three and four
And blue dominates 5

Who wins?

Gotta give him 10/10* for tenacity lol

I haven't seen the Jackson fight so I cant comment. I have however seen the other two and the decision were correct. There was nothing dodgy or corrupt about either of them! Anyone who was impartial and has trained in Thailand for any amount of time knew the decision were correct.

Now you say you have to go on a course to understand the scoring. Neither of the commentators on the Main Event have been on a judging course. They know how to score because of their involvement in the sport. to quote Kevin, I've not been on a judging course I know how to judge from years fighting and training top Thai's. The commentators, in particular Kevin, did an excellent job explaining how the fights were being scored and why. If you don't get it I suggest you re listen to the commentary it was very educational.

If you still dont get it, then I worry for you.

If, however, you dont agree with it, that is fine. If I may suggest, if that be the case, YOU FUCK OFF AND DO ANOTHER SPORT

Ok whatever Leave it at that , everyone on hear obviously sticks together I do have a understanding and thank you dazzathethai your the only person who has asked me a question I have answerd it and u have given me a explanation.

dazzathethai

Posted: 2012-06-22 08:39:59

Instead of going around in circles, do some research, thats what I did when first confronted with the notion that most of my understanding about scoring was possibly incorrect.

Never looked back
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Like I said before if you want to understand the scoring you need to go on a course!

Didn't you train with a Thai Master for 17yrs yet didn't understand scoring?

Very eloquent Mr Phillips!

What is your name btw?

When I started Thai, in 1983, there were not many Thai Shows around, and also not many people fighting Thai. In order to get fights we were often fighting on Kick boxing shows with kick boxing judges. Master Sken said himself that at the time had we done Thai Boxing then as they did in Thailand he did not believe the UK would have taken to it (you could argue they still haven't). As a result styles were modified to suit the judges of the time.

Nowadays a lot more people go to Thailand and more and more people come back wanting to do Muay Thai. Tony Myers once told me that the whole reason he got in to judging was because he was taking his fighters to Thailand to train and they were still loosing over here, he couldn't understand why until he realised it was because they were not being judged as they would be in Thailand. So he did his research and started trying to educate on the way fights were scored in Thailand.

This has been covered before, but to win fights under Muay Thai criteria is means you have to change the way you train to adopt those rules. At the moment there is a split in the UK between those who are willing and able to do that and those who are not willing, able or both. These people often disguise the reasons complaining that is is to complicated, the public will never accept it. etc etc

I have written about this before, in my view, not using the rules as they are in Thailand and still calling it the same sport is cheating, simple as. If you don't like it either lobby the governing bodies to change it, or do another sport. But don't change the rules to suit you. We are not the only country scoring Muay Thai as it should be outside of Thailand, contrary to what some people would have you believe.

Even when I first read Tony's article I didn't take it as a given he was right. I watched fights I hadn't understood the decisions of before and suddenly got them right using that criteria. I then looked back at fights in the UK when Thais did not get the decision and had complained afterwards and realised we had basically cheated.

Most people who don't agree with this scoring have not done the course. Do the course and more importantly look at the depth of investigation and evidence that Tony has. It is not something the, or the majority of people training in Thailand have made up.

So, whilst I have been in the sport for nearly thirty years, I do sometimes feel it has been a lot shorter, but I hope I have been able to adept to change as I have become more educated

Certainly having Sanchi and several other Thai's say to be that UK official's are as good as Thailand to my face makes me think we are going in the right direction

James I will be in Cornwall in August, if you like we could always meet up over a pint and I can discuss this in person with you if you like

Thanks for that but I don't feel like I need educating!

When is the UK going to start scoring a throw to the floor highly as well like they do in Thailand?

We are the UK and we should be scoring to the rules that are written!

Something I have allways wanted to know and hopefully this will get answered with the comment james-cornwall made in regards to the throw, I keep seeing judges and refs saying that they are trying to do things like thailand, but Thai rules say if your hand touches the ground you are classed as being down, why has the couple of times Saenchai has been over here he has done the handsstand kick without receiveing a warning, yes it looks good but illegal in thailand..

No im not being a cunt or disrespectful!! Just a question x

Legitimate throws are scored highley over here with the correct judges.

The cartwheel kick is actually, technically an illegal move

Cheers mate.. 1 more thing, why do the refs away from Thailand allow it, surely who ever is reffing his fight in November should start deducting points if he does it!?

Cos he's saenchai and would knock you out with his nostrils if you did.

lol Robins been hitting the bottle tonight..

the only reason i ask this is because he is fighting Pakorn another thai in Nov, if he tries it again Pakorn and doesnt get warned, won't Pakorn start to kick off?

Kicks like the Rolling Thunder, Cartwheel , etc are legal as long as the kick lands before the hand/glove touches the canvas. If you use your hand on the canvas to balance yourself for the kick then it would be illegal. If a fighter has a well known history of doing it wrong/illegally then the Ref can be watching outfor it. However it is ususlly such a quick & unexpected technique it is difficult for Ref's to see and determin which landed first & they don't have the benefit of tv replay like some sports do.

he's unlikely to do it with pakorn cos hes damn good - just like he doesnt with sagetdao. if he does, its unlikely to do anything since it rarely does - its a show pleaser, hence pakorn wont be bothered. And at the end of the day, hes saenchai and he does it, i doubt pakorn will kick up a stink about it.

He didnt do it with sagetdao as it was in Thailand! am i right? Mike Tyson used to always use his elbows in a fight when on the inside, crowds loved it cos it was nasty and illegal, the ref would warn him as it was an illegal move, what im trying to find out is why if this is an illegal move in Thailand and the UK is trying to do things like in Thailand, why he is never warned for it?

Hi Mike, prior to Saenchai's first fight in the UK I had a discussion with a very senior Thai official in Bangkok regarding this kick, knowing Saenchai would likely throw the kick and that the crowd here would probably like to see it and almost expect it.

As Darren says above, the kick is illegal if Saenchai puts his hands on the canvas and kicks (which he generally does). The Thai official I spoke to was well aware of Saenchai using this kick in fights, He said it was an old Muay Thai technique and eluded to it being spectacular but generally not very effective.

I asked him what his advice would be to referees here. He said that he would not advise referees to penalise Saenchai with a point deduction for the kick as it is not really dangerous, but instead inform him beforehand if his kick was caught during its execution, that his opponent could kick him legitimately irrespective of whether Saenchai's hands were still on the canvas or not. If this resulted in Saenchai being Ko'd, his opponent would win. However, if he Ko'd his opponent with the kick, he would lose by disqualification. That is what we did. In the first fight Liam also did the same kick but neither boxer was hurt.

Saenchai has attempted the kick in Thailand (some time ago now) and there was a debate over the legality of the technique afterwards given it was a traditional technique. It was judged illegal if his hands were on the canvas.

Thanks for that Tony

i would consider the turning or putting opponent to the canvas from the clinch especially followed up by technique a very highscore as would all decent judges i know. off balance and effect definitely shown when you are standing over ur opponent who is on the deck. who said its not scored here?

Quite funny, this lad muaythai90 mentioned corruption and dodgy decisions and everyone jumps down his throat yet well respected people from uk muay Thai are shouting the exact same thing on the wakeling v levin post.

If there is corruption within UK Muay Thai and it is proven then I will be one of the first to come on here and apologise since I was one of the first to jump down muaythai90's throat.

However in saying that, there are a lot of officials who are genuine, hard working and professional and I know I speak for the vast majority here in the UK.

SHAUN

Most people on the uk thai scene are honest,truthful and do what is right for the progression of the sport.But sometimes even rats can get onto a cruise ship and sometimes even into the captains cabin.

Finally a agreement , Shaun I agree and respect your views , however it will never be proven but there is definitely a click within the uk who stick together and support one another , and fighters fighting against these people are favoured against that's my view on things.