NOTICE:
The version of Internet Explorer that you are using is outdated and not officially supported by this site. We heavily suggest upgrading to a more modern browser using one of these links: Firefox, IE, Opera, Safari or Google Chrome. If you have any questions regarding this, please contact us.
NOTICE:
Currently, you have Javascript disabled. Many of the features on this site require Javascript in order to function. It is highly recommended for you to enable Javascript in order to use this site to its fullest. For more info, please contact us.
The Ax Forum
Muay Thai & Kickboxing Forum Mixed Martial Arts Forum Boxing Forum Fight Training Forum Off Topic Forum
Help Center Forum Rules New Account Registration
Sandy Holt
Posted: 2012-07-30 22:22:44
how many gyms just train non fighters?
JoeToe
Posted: 2012-07-30 23:30:23
No one, it's all about the fighter/ boxers. It's a sport like Boxing and MMA not a martial art. If someone doesn't want to fight then they need to take up Tai Chi. (Just trollin)

Of course, there will always be students that only do it for fun, fitness or something to do. Some students are too old to fight or they have disabilities that prevent them, so to exclude them from training is crazy. The fans are just as important as the fighters. If gyms only trained fighters they'd never stay in business.

I think an instructor should have a fight record, but dozens of great instructors out there who've never had fight in their life, they just have a good eye for the game and well rounded knowledge of Muay Thai.
HoostFan
Posted: 2012-07-31 04:02:47
Good post, Master Sken is a perfect example if that, although he never fought in muay Thai himself he has an excellent understanding of the sport
keepyerguardup
Posted: 2012-07-31 04:13:41
Sandy, you of all people should know that the non fighters is where the money is to keep the gym alive.
Muay Thai is for everyone, if there's something that someone is unable to do because of physical or mental abilities then try doing it another way.
At an interclub my bhoy Corey went in with a young disabled lad and sparred with him, it made that wee guys (and mine) day, because he got to spend some time in the ring with a champion fighter. Tbh I have never been prouder of my son and that is what makes our sport what it is.
BTW Corey Stil does interclubs with the boy. And both lads enjoy themselves
Big Al
Posted: 2012-07-31 06:24:55
Did Master Sken never have a fight? Was pretty sure he did. Still fight or no fight his credentials and achievments in Muay Thai are legendary. Nice humble man to, always very polite when I have spoken with him at shows.

Agree with hoostfan though in that a good understanding of Muay Thai is needed to really help a fighter realise their goals.

As someone who used to train in Muay Thai (never to fight, just didnt have the kahuna's needed) I never felt at the gym I trained at that just because I wasnt a fighter I wasnt regarded. The banter in thai gyms is top class especially as most gyms have their fair share of characters.
Nephilim
Posted: 2012-07-31 06:54:24
he never fought. In fact, I do believe he'd never trained a day in thai boxing when he opened his first gym. It was all TKD.

which is why to this day he's more interested in kicking apples off folks heads, getting his students to line up and bow etc. and being called "master" than he is in producing fighters to my eye.

No real disrespect intended, before the fanboys lynch me, the man did a lot for the sport, but I'm just stating the facts.
JJO'R
Posted: 2012-07-31 07:15:52
I remember there was a saying about Master Sken and I think Toddy and/or Master A , years back "Got on the plane as a TKD black belt got off the plane as a Muay Thai master"

He's done a lot for the sport in the UK, possibly more than anyone, but i think a lot of people dont know about the TKD background etc
Dave Croft
Posted: 2012-07-31 07:44:13
In fact you do not know any thing for a fact and therefore are stating your opinion.

I am aware that there is a counter culture in place that prefers to tear down the acheivements of others with rumour and heresay and imagine that by adding the words no disrespect after wards they are exonerated of any wrong doing.

The facts as they are. Following the murder of his father Sken was forced to earn money to pay his way through the education system by competing.

He secured a place at Bangkok University and attained a degree in physical education. Part of his syllabus was fighting forms and he unashamedly studied other martial arts and attained a Masters in TaeKwonDo.

Naturally that spread of style/knowledge is reflected in his teaching.

Recently he received a lifetime award from the Thai sports Minister. I doubt thats the sort of award presented to an imposter as you seen to imagine him to be.

And for the record I do not bow or call him Master. I address him as my friend and shake his hand proudly.

Therefore; to conclude and i mean this with the utmost respect. You are wrong.

You are very welcome to call 0161 429 9660 and discuss my facts with Grand Master Sken yourself of course. But in the spirit of fair play its only right the facts are established.

HoostFan
Posted: 2012-07-31 07:55:07
There's no need to be so disresptful Nephillim I think master sken has been brilliant for muay thai in the uk and I'm certainly not accusing of him being a fraud. As far as I was aware though master sken never fought muay Thai and I've never seen any evidence that he did.
Rokdad
Posted: 2012-07-31 08:35:20
Not Muay Thai, I know, but still relevant I think so I'll just leave this here and move on :-)

Angelo Dundee
Farhad
Posted: 2012-07-31 12:31:35
I agree with Hoostfan, to say anything derogatory about Master Sken at all or even to doubt his fighting career is most disrespectful.

For the record NO not just anyone can do Muay Thai.
Muay Thai is for Fighters not for Tom,Dick and Harry to just have a go at.
Also, Muay Thai is for Fighters who are willing to score on EFFECT not just by using any wishy washy old technique.

Muay Thai is only for HARD people.

Kickboxing however is for Everyone ;)

That is my opinion.
marianne
Posted: 2012-07-31 16:11:00
Muay Thai is for everyone! Most gyms have a group of fighters and a (probably larger) group of people who just train for fitness and whatever other reasons inspire them to train. Some people just aren't interested in fighting, thats their choice. Other people think they dont want to fight but end up fighting. Some ppl want to fight, try it and hate it! Doesn't really matter either way, you need all the different types of ppl in a gym. Non-fighters still help out loads and make the best sparring partners sometimes, most of them have just as much skill, technique etc as the fighters, they just choose not to fight!

One thing i like about thai boxing, is that older people take to it well. the fact that you can kick the legs and use knees encourages them, as not everyone has the flexibility that is required in some of the other kicking arts/sports.
chalky
Posted: 2012-07-31 16:32:39
Marianne,FANTASTIC post!! gyms need all types not just fighters,especially as non fighters prob pay constantly for tuition. I don't fight but have done inters and trained a long time and can offer help.
Basil the Fox
Posted: 2012-07-31 17:08:27
Great post, Marianne!
Nephilim
Posted: 2012-07-31 17:35:46
Hey , I never called him a fraud or anything of the sort, so don't put words in my mouth. Nor, as I specifically said, was I intending, as I said, any disrespect (respect being a word that gets bandied around this sport entirely too often).

You don't like my opinion? So what, disagree and move on, don't read some deadly insult in it and go off on one. You'd think people involved in a fight sport really could "take it on the chin".

Exactly why I, and many others rarely post on ax.
Farhad
Posted: 2012-07-31 18:58:23
I agree with Marianne's post on everything EXCEPT I'd replace the word Muay Thai with Kickboxing ;)
Neil Gribbon
Posted: 2012-07-31 19:10:10
Good post Dave Croft.

My first gym was in Master Sken's Sitnarong camp. I first went to Thailand nearly 20 yrs ago when few westerners went compared with todays standards. The only farangs were a few brits, a few aussies and a few scandanavians. We were the only westerners who could clinch, knee and throw correct roundhouse kicks. None of the Thais had heard of Master Sken but they complemented us on the technique we has learned from him.

Sken is a true gentleman and wished to build a strong foundation for muay thai in this country. His style including the spectacular techniques that he used to teach which I was always too fat and stiff to make work for me in the ring is not to everyones taste but it is all thai technique.

He used to advocate muay boran style techniques and the spectacular kicking because he said many top thai gyms only taught very basic technique that worked in the ring and were neglecting the old muay boran type kicks and techniques which he loved. That was only his opinion. At no time did we learn anything TKD technique.

I have adapted my style and simplified it to be more orientated for competing in the ring so I choose not to teach the muay boran techniques that were part of the Sitnarong style.

As for kicking apples off swords this was only done to excite the public at demonstrations.

Nephlim says "No real disrespect intended, before the fanboys lynch me, the man did a lot for the sport, but I'm just stating the facts"

You have not stated one single fact Nephlim just your opinion. Maybe if your post had been written with a little more thought you would not have attracted such a passionate response from Dave.

Say what you like about Grand Master Sken, love him or hate him, the FACT is he is a certified Grand Master from Thailand, home of Muay Thai, NOT Korea, home of Taekwondo.
If you look at his 'family tree' of Instructors he has trained there are not many successful gyms around today that did not originally learn from Sken, Toddy, Woody etc. If he was merely a TKD instructor who saw a gap in the market in this country for muay thai as you suggest would he really have been honoured by the Thais and given the the title of Grand Master.

I am not trying to cause an argument with you Nephlim or stop you posting on AX, nor I am a fanboy, I have not seen or spoken to Sken since 1998 and would doubt he would remember who I was. I just hate people being unjustly treated.
Attitude
Posted: 2012-07-31 19:14:29
Hi Nephilim, I see by your "just stating the facts" you are still struggling with the intricies of translating the spoken word into the written where the loss of cadence make blunt statements even blunter and potentailly offensive. If your are serious then saying things like I didn't intend any disrespect really doesn't cut it, taking extra care in the first place to how statments are couched, does. Preview post is a useful tool.
Sandy, as to your question, I know that you know the answer. My take on it is that anyone can train in Muay Thai but not everyone can fight or teach Muay Thai. And being a former fighter does not automatically make a Coach/Trainer. A good sport coach can cross from one sport or code to another and still coach well . They don't need to have played at a high level themselves and even not even played at all. Must have the passion and the brain for the particular sport to be able to analise techniques and tactics then be able to pass them onto other. We all came from another sport, be it TKD, boxing, table tennis or water polo. The more simular the sports then more the need to ensure you get rid of old habits that don't match the new sport. So just because someone did another fight style before means little, It's how they adapt their style that does.
I have a number of non fighters training for fun, fitness or maybe so thay can tell their mates they train in Muay Thai or Kickboxing. I let them know that fighters come first in our trainings, if someone is targeting a fight event then that is our focus and as a club our job is to get behind that fighter/s to help them. Without competitive fighters then we are just another fitness class. We need fighters be be able to call ourseives a fight club.
JoeToe
Posted: 2012-07-31 20:11:31
Grand Master Sken is a living legend, a true martial artist. He has the honor of being titled Grand Master by the Thailand Ministry of Education. He studied all sort of sports, physical education and earned his college degree in Thailand.
He had to fight after his father was murdered to support his family and he has done more for Muay Thai in the West than any of you nutters.

Call me a fanboy, but it's the Thai Government who recognize Grand Master Sken's achievements in educating, teaching, promoting and organizing Muay Thai and Thai Martial Arts. He has positively changed the lives of many people, giving them hope when others didn't. He's a good man FACT.
The title of Grand Master has been given to him by the Thai government FACT.
He's one of the first people to introduce to the west other Thai Martial Arts, such as, Ling Lom, Krabi Krabbong, LerDrit, etc... FACT.

I apologize to the Master Sken Academy for posting this; however, I felt it was necessary.
Attitude
Posted: 2012-07-31 21:34:33
Seems to have becom a Master Sken thread now. Don't know him other than what I have read and watching some UTube clips. From the way he moves about on the clips I automatically thought that there was a good deal of TKD in his background. Bit surprised it showed through so much but hell if thats who he is then thats who he is. His record as an instructor and promoter of the art of Muay Thai speaks for its self. It is all too easy to sit in front of our lap tops in 2012 and comment like some experts on the early pioneers of Muay Thai and other sports/arts. He and the likes Master Toddy, Ajarn Chai, Larry Hartsell, Dan Inosanto, etc were introducing their arts and sports to countries and people who basically only knew and related to; TKD, Kung Fu, Karate, or wrestling and boxing. I believe that sometimes they had to adapt what they did to meet their customer needs. Maybe some people may have made a slightly exaggerated claim about their background/fight record/? as part of marketing themselves never expecting 30 years later to be so well known that their pedigree is debated but keyboard experts. People could never of imagined where life would take them. And we as students have a habit of building up the stories of our instructors to grow larger than life and some of these become urban/internet myths. Back in the day there were no pc's, internet, camcorders, UTube etc. Just a few mags and less books. I remember if you got hold of a VHS video of an instructor or a fight it was like gold and to be only swapped with a few trusted training mates. Now anyone can get on UTube and within seconds have hundreds of clips to trawl through and soon become experts. I beleive all Coaches/Instructors who are of some years standing will admit that they now teach differntly than 10,15 or 20 years ago. Infact, if they haven't changed anything I would be suspicious of them, their skills and what they are teaching. We all came from somewhere else. There are now a hugh number of gyms with Chineese or Japaneese names teaching Muay Thai & MMA. Some are bandwagon jumpers and others serious Instructors or clubs who have; growen, learnt, adapted and changed to meet a new customer need. For some people it is easier to try and cut down others then it is to grow themselves to be able to stand up at their level of greatness.
HAWKMAN
Posted: 2012-07-31 22:54:41
i met a girl in Patong who could lick an apple off the end of my pork-sword and that thrilled the crown i can tell you. we did try with pineapple but we couldnt get the tin open.
HAWKMAN
Posted: 2012-08-01 02:41:35
crown = crowd, before i get slammed with any lese-majeste stuff
marianne
Posted: 2012-08-01 07:43:12
Attitude, i agree with most of what you wrote there, but i dont agree with telling other students that 'fighters come first'. it automatically makes them feel inferior to the fighters before they have even started and they probably wont want to stay in a gym where they are considered secondary to any fighters there, especially if they are paying more money than the fighter is, to train.
and to be fair, fighters dont really do the bulk of their fight training in a normal class (where all the non-fighters do their training) they have a totally different training schedule anyway so i dont see how they would 'have to come first'.

billybigconkers
Posted: 2012-08-01 08:10:18
pmsl hawkman
Sandy Holt
Posted: 2012-08-01 08:52:13
like marriane said above ! and i will re itterate it
Muay thai is for anyone !
"FACT"
JoeToe
Posted: 2012-08-01 16:36:35
And the Thai Ministry of Education have a Grading syllabus. FACT.

The title of Grand Master is given by the Thai Government. So for those who said there's NO grading in Thailand, I guess the Thai Government's Ministry of Education doesn't count.

Muay Thai is an umberella term for Thai Martial Arts. Most Britts were calling it Thai Boxing until the late 1980's and most of the Americans I talk to still think Muay Thai is a restaurant. So opinions are like brains. Everyone has one, they just choose not to use them.
Sandy Holt
Posted: 2012-08-01 21:21:03
good post and lol


Small `minded` do have Brains joe toe :-p

just Small lmao
Strong Hand
Posted: 2012-08-01 21:51:48
couldnt care who uses grading, its a con imo. Just a way to make money. If you coach people in the right way then grading isnt necesarry
JoeToe
Posted: 2012-08-01 21:56:27
Not true. I feel the critics of grading in Muay Thai do have brains. I think they don't like structure or the have something to hide about how they required their KRU status.

The problem is that when they trash Muay Thai gradings or say "there's no grading in Muay Thai", every McDojo and MMA gym look at it and think "cool" I can throw a kick and a punch, so I'll just start teaching Muay Thai.
JoeToe
Posted: 2012-08-01 22:08:41
That last comment was for Sandy.

@ Stronghand,
You have a valid point, although I know you're talking about folks who actually know Muay Thai, but don't like grading and that allows "every Tom, Dick and Harry" the chance to teach Muay Thai IMO.

For example, I know lots of MMA gyms that are offering Muay Thai classes that are actually MMA striking classes. So why not just call it Striking? Why go out of the way to call it Muay Thai?

If you don't like grading in Muay Thai, that's fine. Just don't be worried about why someone's a Grand Master if you don't care about it.
It's like the OCD guy who doesn't like curtains and then goes around pointing and laughing at their neighbor who has curtains in the window.


Sandy Holt
Posted: 2012-08-01 22:11:27
grades are levels and structure strong hand
why you think they have them in ALL schools ?
Colleges and Universities etc: etc:
No grades ?
No Structure !
No levels and standards !


Fighting is Structured on levels N C B A & Bouts fought, won, lost, drawn !

and then same with titles
again all structured


so Similar to Grades!

Without All the above we would be in Chaos




All Structured
Sandy Holt
Posted: 2012-08-01 22:28:50
anyone CAN and do Muay thai
and anyone can grade...
But
Not Any1 can fight
thats whty gradings are good for people and gyms
If your Gym offers Both then you have a choice if they dont??? then you have no choices !
Simple as !
Strong Hand
Posted: 2012-08-01 22:29:31
Muay Thai is more similar to boxing than Traditional Martial Arts, there is no grading system in boxing! My coach(thankfully) doesnt use a grading system, he just trusts his own judgement.

Also I have no problem with others using fancy names, just dont expect me to acknowledge it or agree with it
JoeToe
Posted: 2012-08-01 22:36:54
And Boxing has a ranking system my friend.
Strong Hand
Posted: 2012-08-01 22:38:09
lol rankings are totally different from gradings numbnut
Sandy Holt
Posted: 2012-08-01 22:41:40
only 1 nut?
you cant count lol
Rankings
Levels structure
hows that far away from gradings?????

im guessing you have never took any?


and of course a graded person isnt b etter than some1 whose not or fought
Its about
Standards/ levels and "Aceivement" / Goals

do you have any?

whats life withoutb them???
JoeToe
Posted: 2012-08-01 22:44:20
And Boxing is totally different than a 1000 year old Asian Martial Art.

I could tell you why the King mandated Boxing gloves and rules for Muay Kaad Cherk, but then that would be something you'll learn in a grading. Gradings are about so much more than the Kickboxing sport we think of today when we hear the word Muay Thai.It's about History, knowledge, Thai Massage, physical fitness, Mae Mai & Luk Mai, etc.....
Krabi Krabbong is part of the Muay Thai family and it doesn't use gloves, instead it uses swords. Now what?
Sandy Holt
Posted: 2012-08-01 22:46:25
bold statement
strong hand

Strong Hand
Posted: 2012-08-01 22:29:31

Muay Thai is more similar to boxing than Traditional Martial Arts, there is no grading system in boxing! My coach(thankfully) doesnt use a grading system, he just trusts his own judgement.



why is it???
as Muay thai IS a martial art


and has your Instructor ever taken grades?

and trusts his judgement? whats that got to do with it?
anyone can do that
and im not saying his judgement is bad or wrong btw !!!
Strong Hand
Posted: 2012-08-01 22:49:45
ok sorry for leaving you out sandy, I'll change that to "numbnuts" if that'll make you happy? lol

gradings and rankings are different, stop changing the subject lol. showing structure means nothing sandy, so does "Jenga", but its not the same.

JoeToe
Posted: 2012-08-01 22:54:22
Here's the thing Stronghand.
Every Muay Thai gym in Thailand has an initiation ceremony if you stick around long enough. They also have ranks and titles depending on the style of Muay they teach. The Thai government has been recognizing gradings for years. It's optional, but I know that someone who has at least trained under one of these Grand Masters probably has a better understanding than someone who hasn't.
Sandy Holt
Posted: 2012-08-01 22:54:58
thankyou and spankyou i now outrank you iam now known as HIGH 10
9 2 hands ) lmao

ref: rankings ? / levels n c b a class = structure / levels
same as gradings ... your in denial sir !
they are the same like 2 sides of the Same Coin
to rank / rate some1 they have to have had a standard / level
dfrom like ive mentioned 1 fight 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
same like gradings
steps


how cant you see that?


Sandy Holt
Posted: 2012-08-01 22:55:23
thankyou and spankyou i now outrank you iam now known as HIGH 10
( 2 hands ) lmao


Strong Hand
Posted: 2012-08-01 22:55:45
but Muay Thai isnt a 1000 year old martial art, it is the sport that is derived from the martial art. I dont really care about the king or why boxing gloves are used if Im honest, and if thats whats taught at gradings then Im even more against them now than I was 5 minutes ago lol

and by "trusting his own judgement" I meant he knows from watching them train how they are progressing....technically thats what coaches should be doing anyway imo.
Sandy Holt
Posted: 2012-08-01 22:57:50
and yes like joe toe says its about choices
i chose to do both ! Fought and graded
im richer in knowledge and that doesnt make me better than you though !
you choose not too
its up to you and the individual and all the way up to the gym / instructor too
JoeToe
Posted: 2012-08-01 22:58:03
Calm down Master Sandy Holt, or we'll have Kru Shaun Boland come on here and give Stronghand a real good can of Whooping.
Strong Hand
Posted: 2012-08-01 22:58:58
Sandy are you schizophrenic? that makes absolutely no sense in any language ;P lol
Sandy Holt
Posted: 2012-08-01 23:01:09
lol read it again
s l o w l y :-)
Strong Hand
Posted: 2012-08-01 23:02:38
well if they get names I want one, can I be "the Wizard"?? lol
Strong Hand
Posted: 2012-08-01 23:03:58
I could read that at any speed, doesnt make it any more logical of an opinion!
Sandy Holt
Posted: 2012-08-01 23:05:25
and you contradicted yourself you said its a martial art from where the sport came from !



and its still a martial art and a sport
Gradings
Fighting


strong hand writes-
and by "trusting his own judgement" I meant he knows from watching them train how they are progressing....technically thats what coaches should be doing anyway imo.




All coaches / instructors / teachers / kru do that


but then your rewarded with words........... good
but what about a grade? a kruang ruang ( armband to you) or / and certification of level attained?



same as your name in a ranking or wearing a championship belt


2 choices
why have 1 ???????????????
Sandy Holt
Posted: 2012-08-01 23:07:25
grading
fighting

2 hands or 1 ?

:-P
Strong Hand
Posted: 2012-08-01 23:09:58
oooh a certificate, Id rather just get given praise in the gym if Im honest?

All anyone needs is praise from their teachers, that feeling of satisfaction given through a few words is far more important to anyone than a certificate imo
JoeToe
Posted: 2012-08-01 23:10:26
Stronghand,
Just give it a rest. You're showing your Noobie colors. We tend to joke around and have fun. If you don't liek grading that's fine, but don't those who do, coz I guarantee you those that did both grading and fighting are more well rounded and have more structure than if they hadn't.
Plus, you can't have a title. Those titles come from the Thai government or reputable gym and Instructors in Thailand.

Strong Hand
Posted: 2012-08-01 23:10:45
Sandy Holt
Posted: 2012-08-01 23:07:25
grading
fighting

2 hands or 1 ?

:-P



what does that mean? lol
Strong Hand
Posted: 2012-08-01 23:16:51
Im showing myself as a what? whats a "noobie"? Im not attacking anyone who does gradings or has a title, I told you that earlier! I am just giving my opinion(this is a forum).

JoeToe
Posted: 2012-08-01 23:10:26
" coz I guarantee you those that did both grading and fighting are more well rounded and have more structure than if they hadn't."

thats a very bold statement, and theres no way in hell you can "guarantee" anything lol
Strong Hand
Posted: 2012-08-01 23:19:22
JoeToe
Posted: 2012-08-01 23:10:26

Plus, you can't have a title. Those titles come from the Thai government or reputable gym and Instructors in Thailand.



how could you not tell I was joking? :/
Sandy Holt
Posted: 2012-08-01 23:20:52
a praise yes !! :-)


but a Priase and a cerificate and a score sheet to see your strengths and weekness in black& white and level and a grade in your licence book and a armband
all sounds like choices to me ! :-)
and yes
alongside that ( 10 grades / levels and Higher Instructor 5 levels ) Nice Fight trophy... or 21 i won (well 21 trophys 17 wins 2 draws and 2 losses on pinnts) and 3 Championship Belts
All about choices Stronghand
choices !!!
im glad i had them


thats what i meant do you want 1 hand or 2 ?
2 hands are better than 1 :-p
Sandy Holt
Posted: 2012-08-01 23:22:42

sorry was on facebook chat and typing 2 things at a time sorry spell-

a praise yes !! :-)


but a Praise and a cerificate and a score sheet to see your strengths and weekness in black& white and level and a grade in your licence book and a armband
all sounds like choices to me ! :-)
and yes
alongside those 10 grades / levels and Higher Instructor 5 levels some Nice Fight trophy... or 21 i won (well 21 trophys 17 wins 2 draws and 2 losses on points) and 3 Championship Belts
All about choices Stronghand
choices !!!
im glad i had them


thats what i meant do you want 1 hand or 2 ?
2 hands are better than 1 :-p
JoeToe
Posted: 2012-08-01 23:23:03
Stronghand,
I haven't got a clue what 2 hands or 1? actually means.
I think it's about choices. If you like sport, that's one hand. If you like the whole package, then you have two hands.

I like watching gradings and bouts. The next man only likes to watch bouts. Then the man next to him only likes to watch stadium bouts. It's about choices. Love em' or leave em'. You can only do what makes you happy.
Sandy Holt
Posted: 2012-08-01 23:24:18
yes you do joetoe you just explained it ya plant pot lol lol
2 choices


JoeToe
Posted: 2012-08-01 23:31:19
Gosh, I'm getting flak from everyone.

You guys deserve a two page essay in future.
smeikl11
Posted: 2012-08-02 01:11:53
Grading in MT is a good thing for kids and people who arent interested in fighting. It keeps the kids focused and aiming towards the next grading. opens them to the culture and history behind Thaiboxing and includes people who enjoy the training but for whatever reason dont want to fight.

It is not worthwhile for anyone who wants to fight seriously though as it doesnt add anything to your your goal of imroving and developing as a fighter.

As for how much it matters in Thailand?? Well im not entirely sure it has any place in most gyms. I know Master Toddy does some sort of grading in his gym but again that is for non-fighters or kids. Thai Gov may well recognise an MT grading system, but they also recognise the Thai Anti Corruption Commission and everybody knows how busy they are ;)

But any full grown man who parades around with their grading armlet on during training needs a good beating!!
JoeToe
Posted: 2012-08-02 08:19:50
smeikl11, you need a good beating my friend.
JoeToe
Posted: 2012-08-02 08:26:55

I thought Scotland was full of tradition and culture? Jocks are starting to sound like the yanks on this issue. I love Scotland too much, so I'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
marianne
Posted: 2012-08-02 08:38:39
not the grading argument again...how many times has this been argued about on here now??

if people want to grade, great
if people want to fight, great
if people want to do both, great
if poeple want to do neither, thats fine too!


we have all the above and i couldnt give a $hit if people slate us for having gradings in thai boxing. they aren't compulsory, people dont have to do them and they cost £15 once or twice a year and every penny of that goes straight back in to our gym on equipment etc for people to use.

the fighters dont grade but they do help out with the gradings and none of them are so superior or snobby that they would laugh at someone for having a goal of a grading to work towards because they know that fighting is not for everyone, but most people need some sort of goal and recognition to aim for.


i couldnt care less if "its not what they do in thailand" thats not being disrespectful, i spend a good portion of my time training in thailand every year so i know perfectly well that it would mean nothing there, but we are not in thailand and have to base what our gym does on the requirements of the people that pay to train there.

no one in thai boxing will ever, ever agree on this subject, it just wont happen.

Dave Croft
Posted: 2012-08-02 08:55:43
Im not a fan of Grading prefering competition to improve a students level. However;

Grading is covered on my website. But here are the high lights which should satisfy both those for and those against grading.

No martial art actually originated with a grading system envisaged. This came about initially to organise levels of ability in students training communally. Typically in China and Japan. Though at this time is wasnt grading more sorting by ability.
But as Martial Arts made their way across to the West the West demanded validation of its skills. with it came a way to make money. Give 'em what they want but make a buck. Straight forward commercial reality.

Thai is unique in so far as its stand alone in the world of martial in so far as its best demonstrated through competition. And typically that competition is a devastating fighting art.

So its easy. Train and fight. Train to fight for personal reasons (health,fitness etc)or train to fight and grade.

Personal choice. No further debate
Nephilim
Posted: 2012-08-02 09:14:45
Gradings in thai are wank. Just a way of making money despite whatever drivel people like to spout about tradition, giving "non-fighters" a goal etc.
Dave Croft
Posted: 2012-08-02 09:29:12
Well I think drivels a bit offensive. I dont do them. And dont like them. So we're in accord.

They are also a way (as i wrote) to raise revenue so again no argument there either.

But where we differ is you think they are wank. I just think its personal choice and cant get that excited.

marianne
Posted: 2012-08-02 09:54:47
so Iain you are basically saying that im talking drivel? clearly you have never ran a gym that has a large group of everyday students alongside the fighters. you clearly think that thai boxing is only for those people that fight and that should be the only absolute. its personal choice and you have absolutley every right to an opinion but your opinion is basically stating that im talking drivel....so be it! my boyfriend probably agrees with you!
cant believe we are arguing about this.....again.....
Nephilim
Posted: 2012-08-02 10:13:31
Na, I don't think thai boxing is purely for those as want to fight - but that's got nothing to do with gradings. BJJ and judo both have strict grading systems that work perfectly fine. I just dont see what the necessity for them is in a sport that more and more imitates western boxing - which works perfectly fine and does perfectly well financially without gradings.

First way of judging your skill - who have you fought and beaten?

Second - how well do you do at interclubs?

Third - how do you stack up against other people in your gym, and roughly how well does your gym stack up against others?

All simple ways someone can judge their own skill level without having to pay for the privilege of doing techniques that their coaches, if they're being honest, see them doing every training night anyway. Real coaching should ALWAYS be a matter of assessment, evaluation, critique and advice. Given that, the grading system isn't necessary. Making it, in my opinion, wank.
Kru Shaun Boland
Posted: 2012-08-02 10:18:09
MAKING THE GRADE IN MUAY THAI

By Kru Shaun Boland

‘There is nothing so useless as doing efficiently that which should not be done at all.’
Peter F. Drucker

I have decided to write this article because there is a lot of opinion regarding whether gradings should be used in Muay Thai (Thai boxing). I hope I can be as objective as possible and give both pros and cons towards this subject.

What is important to note is that the Thais do not have a grading system in professional Muay Thai. For the Thai people it is all about achievement through their labours both in training and in the ring.

My good friend Andy Thomson of Lanna Muay Thai camp, in Chiang Mai Thailand, feels strongly about gradings in Muay Thai and has asked me to quote him:

“It would be a great loss to Muay Thai if the authorities here ever try to implement any kind of grading system in Thailand. People who learn Muay Thai here in Thailand should learn to train and study Muay Thai for their own personal improvement and not the falsehood of ‘grading’ levels. Muay Thai is a life long pursuit and for the fighter, though his career in the ring is limited by age and the physical strength of his body, he may also continue as a student, teacher and trainer for the remainder of his active life. The one true master I have met here was 88 years old and still contributing to the advancement and growth of young Muay Thai fighters, and he never had a grading done in his lifetime”

So before I go on let us look at gradings throughout the martial arts.
Most Martial arts can trace their roots back to the battle field where their respective arts were used to kill or maim their enemy. Rank was used to differentiate officers and soldiers but there were no ‘black belts’ or masters back then. Simply, you fought for survival. The status of ‘hero’ may have been given for the many brave warriors and, for some, medals, trophies and sometimes money or land was given as a reward. More often than not these ‘reluctant heroes’ would return to their lives with very little other than their honour. As these battlefield arts became diluted for sport or self-defence a system was devised to recognize achievement and rank. Hence the black belt system was devised. I believe this came from Japan and the various colours of the grades denoted certain attributes, such as white belt for purity etc.

Bruce Lee had quite profound opinions about gradings. In his early formation of Jeet Kune Do he created a grading system that started with a blank circle on the students T-shirts to represent nothingness. As the student progressed through the ranks they were awarded with different coloured grades represented by Yin Yang emblems. There were a total of eight grades and the highest grade was a blank circle, again representing nothingness and returning to the beginning stage. Bruce Lee explained that all the other grades were there to clean up what he described as the ‘classical mess’ He also added that belts were only good for holding your trousers up!

So opinion differs as to whether gradings are of any use. There was a time when to reach a black belt in most systems you would spend a minimum of 5 and sometimes 8 years before you tested. In these ‘want it, want it right now’ times you can get fast tracked to black belt standard over the weekend! You can even do a home study course to achieve your Black belt!

With so many ‘Black belts’ out there, isn’t it any wonder that the traditionalist and purists find the whole grading scene both pretentious and unworthy?

However let us look at the flip-side and let me come back to my original thread regarding gradings in Muay Thai.

To differentiate between the Thai and the westerner regarding Muay Thai I must explain that the Thai lives, breathes, eats and sleeps Muay Thai literally. The Thai Nak rian (student) and Nak Muay (boxer) live on their respective camps and train twice daily. Their chores will include cooking and cleaning and maintenance of their camp. Their income is decided by the fights they win and their desire is driven by simply wanting to be the best.
The singular major difference for our Nak Muay in the west is that on the whole they have full time jobs to maintain to ensure their families and mortgages are kept intact.
In addition most students of Muay Thai here in the West do it for fitness, self-defence and self-confidence and the majority will never fight. It is only the handful of talented and dedicated Nak Muay who achieves their respective moments of glory.

Students in the West rightly or wrongly like to see rewards for their hard labour. The results of their training are simply not enough for most and they want certificates, awards and accolade.

So, how can it benefit us to grade in Muay Thai here in the West? Is it simply enough to say we grade to satisfy our narcistic egocentric personalities?

I have mulled this over for many years and like Bruce Lee and Andy Thomson personally believe that skill or fight records alone should denote your rank and file not fancy coloured belts or sashes.

However what about quality of instruction? Who is to say that an undefeated World champion would make a great instructor? Surely the person who trained that champion is the one you would want to instruct you!

So gradings as a way to qualify towards instructorship, to set a high standard of excellence have their place do you not think?

I decided that a grading system was needed for my academy simply for the following reasons:

• It generates revenue for the academy.
• Through achievement, gradings promote retention of student numbers.
• I want to teach about Thai culture and tradition in addition to the art and our gradings reflect this.
• Each grade is structured so that the student progresses towards becoming an instructor
• During grades, if a particular technique or combination is failed by several students then I can review my teaching methods and look to improve them
• A structured syllabus is in place for other instructors to implement when running their own schools

In Thailand the Prajit (arm band) is worn on the fighters arm and contains the Kruang Ruang which offers symbolic protection for the Nak Muay. This has been adapted in the West so that the Prajit is coloured in respect of each grade.

However there is no formal ruling as to grade colours or grading content and structure in Muay Thai and this is where I believe the problem lies. Any club can form its own syllabus and coloured grade system (I have!). The only continuity that I see is that a red armband denotes instructor in Muay Thai (although a few have black).

I feel that any grading system must encompass the essence of Muay Thai and therefore a requirement for cultural and traditional knowledge should be tested in addition to showing the ability to demonstrate techniques and fighting skills

The grade to instructor should be both comprehensive and developing and in my opinion if the right criteria is achieved then it should take a minimum of 4 years to reach this standard.

the qualities and attributes required to lead the way towards the development in Muay Thai and Thai culture and yet remains humble and subservient to the art. Showing all the attributes from purity, Scholarship, competence, technicality, harmony, fluidity, comprehension, enlightenment, responsibility, development and master, the grand-master remains humble and continues to grow and learn. This is the highest level and through this level purity is once again achieved bringing the life cycle of the student to grandmaster in full circle.

So is it right to grade in Muay Thai? Certainly not in Thailand, it just does not have its place there. The only exceptions are in Muay Boran and Krabi-Krabong but it is about the sport of Muay Thai I am discussing.

In the West the debate will go on, as a professional fighter there is no need to grade, their achievements speak volumes for themselves. As an instructor however, knowledge and experience is essential and a ‘formal’ qualification is necessary to ensure that high standards are kept throughout our art.

Students who do not wish to fight can still acquire achievement, skills and can qualify as instructors or coaches and corner-men.

There lies another dilemma; I have heard people say that how can someone be an instructor if they have never fought? This is a valid point and it brings me back to an earlier paragraph when I said that even the most skilled champions of our sport do not necessarily make great instructors.

Let us also not forget that gradings also bring income and student retention to our respective clubs

So to sum up, gradings in Muay Thai here in the West should provide a readily identifiable level of competency and proficiency and should never be diluted to the fast track level so that it weakens and de-stabilises our art. It is worth remembering that if you travel to Thailand and profess that you are a ‘Kru’ (Instructor) in Muay Thai then you may be asked to live up to ‘their’ expectations!


“The army have ranks. Yet not all those with rank have experienced battle. Yet they are trained for the eventuality”.
JoeToe
Posted: 2012-08-02 10:24:58
Haha, this is funny. So the grader haters are also the gym owner haters?
"I'm so freakin good at Muay Thai I don't even need to train at a gym." Blah blah blah...Gyms, organizations and instructors have been doing gradings in Muay Thai for donkeys years, FACT.
Kids and non fighters have been doing Muay Thai for years, FACT.
The idea of colored sashes actually comes from Thailand and not Japan, FACT.
Nobody can agree on how to score a Muay Thai rules fight, FACT.
UKMF is bent, FACT.
Wakeling BEAT Levin, FACT.
Gradings aren't compulsory and neither is fighting, FACT.
Dave Croft
Posted: 2012-08-02 10:42:47
Just out of interest how did the UKMF and Wakling/levin debate cross over to a thread regarding Grading? ha ha

Sashes are ostensibly an early civilisation technique to hold up lose fitting robes later through the ages to become belts. In Japan all robes were held shut with a flat cord sash.

Strong Hand
Posted: 2012-08-02 11:06:58
someone piss in your coffee JoeToe? lol
Kru Shaun Boland
Posted: 2012-08-02 11:27:39
Seems like he is just simply 'FACT' off with all this ;-)
Strong Hand
Posted: 2012-08-02 11:33:30
hahaha
chalky
Posted: 2012-08-02 11:35:35
How the fuck did this topic get on to gradings? Everybody can do muay thai...YES! and you need all types of people in the gym,Not just fighters only!

Right,Gradings while it's come up AGAIN! (1)They make money for the gym,simple.(The actual grading and all the "extra" grading classes)and gyms have lots of gradings per year? (2)They are good if that is what you want to do,good for kids especially? (3)Would have more time for them if they were'nt handed out like sweets! fast tracked to red armbands or whatever....should be 6- 8 months between gradings imho. (4)Red armband/grade No fights... No armband,35 fights.... whose best at it?
You don't need a grade to be a great coach imho.

Thank you for watching :)
Neil Holden
Posted: 2012-08-02 13:33:47
chalky
Posted: 2012-08-02 11:35:35
How the fuck did this topic get on to gradings....

---

Very funny post there Chalky, where is my "like" button.

Welcome to family-"AxKICKBOXING.com."

I only posted, to lighten the tone! Probrably get dumb-and-Dumber (liam-and-liamer) jump on me now ( tough guys in a gang cant post without the other ).

Maybe a back-to-topic call from someone!

;)
BKK Gym
Posted: 2012-08-02 15:26:04
I'm missing a trick here.... I don't charge anything for gradings, but I do them by continual assessment.

Muay Thai is for everyone, just like every other martial art. Just train it to your level and enjoy it.
chalky
Posted: 2012-08-02 16:16:21
Neil,Not directed at you but it's gone off topic all together? Gradings? Master Sken?....

Lets all chill and laugh out loud eh :)
Kru Shaun Boland
Posted: 2012-08-02 16:48:00
Brrrrrrrrrr, HAHAHAHAH!
Sorry took you literally lol ;-)
Sandy Holt
Posted: 2012-08-02 23:22:02
nephlin, very poor comments mr again one whom probably hasnt attained ?

marrianne
great [post

marianne
Posted: 2012-08-02 08:38:39

not the grading argument again...how many times has this been argued about on here now??

if people want to grade, great
if people want to fight, great
if people want to do both, great
if poeple want to do neither, thats fine too!



Dave Croft
thankyou good post and articulate
as is and grteat as usual and well explained
mr Shaun Boland


thankyou





choices guys choices !


if your a Runner that does the 100?
dont knock the 200 guys
if your a 200 runner?
dont knock the 400 !
if your a 400?
dont knock the 800
if your a 800 runner?
dont knock the Marathon runner
as they are ALL Runners

we are ALL Thai boxers


get a Grip with your silly comments and Denial about-
Goals
acheivement
grades
(interclubs / fighting )
all are liok running !!!!!!!!!!
Sandy Holt
Posted: 2012-08-02 23:24:19
sorry spell-


nephlin, very poor comments mr ! tut tut
again one whom probably hasnt attained ?

marrianne
great [post

marianne
Posted: 2012-08-02 08:38:39

not the grading argument again...how many times has this been argued about on here now??

if people want to grade, great
if people want to fight, great
if people want to do both, great
if poeple want to do neither, thats fine too!



Dave Croft
thankyou good post and articulate!!!
and as is and great as usual and well explained
mr Shaun Bolands posts thankyou


thankyou





choices guys choices !


if your a Runner that does the 100?
dont knock the 200 guys
if your a 200 runner?
dont knock the 400 !
if your a 400?
dont knock the 800
if your a 800 runner?
dont knock the Marathon runner
as they are ALL Runners

we are ALL Thai boxers


get a Grip with your silly comments and Denial about-
Goals
acheivement
grades
(interclubs / fighting )
all are like running !!!!!!!!!!
Attitude
Posted: 2012-08-03 06:07:18
From reading these and other topics over the time I think the question that really begs asking and answering is:
What is Muay Thai?
Is it a fight sport, martial art, or a cultural expression? Can you separate one of these out of the equation and still call it Muay Thai? Does it have to be done just like in Thailand to be considered Muay Thai? If I have no fighters and train people for fitness benefits only should I call it a Thai Boxercise class? If I teach techniques for self defence and not compete or worry about fighting fitness is it still Muay Thai? Do I have to teach and believe in the Buddhist or cultural components to say it's Muay Thai?
smeikl11
Posted: 2012-08-03 06:40:42
Did i touch a nerve Joe Toe ae?

Eaxactly what else that i wrote do u have a problem with ae?

Maybe next time your in Thailand we can have a friendly discussion about your opinions and ty to hand out that beating ae? Sure ill recognise you though, youll be the fat cunt sitting in the ladyboy bar wearing your armlets ae? lol ;)
keepyerguardup
Posted: 2012-08-03 06:56:41
smeikle11 yer gettin a beatin!!!! :/
Liam R
Posted: 2012-08-03 07:12:48
fighters only dont have time for keep fitters, if they want to fight but dont seem to be making progress theyre asked to leave
Strong Hand
Posted: 2012-08-03 09:29:12
ma money is on JoeToe, he seems legit lol
smeikl11
Posted: 2012-08-03 10:59:20
One day when i have 'attained' the great level of knowledge and training offered through grading i will pull on my anklets, sparkly shorts, Chang tshirt, armlets, say 'hello' in Thai, wai the bag and truely know i have finally achieved something. I hope JoeToe allows me the time to get to this level before he hands out his beating???
JoeToe
Posted: 2012-08-03 11:28:16
smeikl11, you have now joined stronghand in the ballbusting competition.
This thread whent off topic because of the reason WHY Muay Thai is not seen to be for everyone.

As far as fighting, it depends on what kind of fighting? Will the bout be MT rules, KB Rules or MMA Rules? Then there are differences of scoring within the said rules. That's why I made my Wakeling/ LEvin comment. Wakeling cleanly won, but the judges whent the other way, so where's the rules and without those rules is it still MT, or could it just be called fighting?
The problem at hand is that Muay Thai is an umbrella term. I know people that do the "old styles" and they still call it Muay Thai. I know gyms that teach striking for MMA and guess what? They also call it Muay Thai for whatever reason.

Is Muay Thai for everyone? YES.
It just depends on what your definition of Muay Thai is. I know people with disabilities who've had legally sanctioned fights and I know people without a disability who've never even had an interclub, but yet both people enjoy their training.
Muay1
Posted: 2012-08-03 11:40:09
The shit people on here argue over is hilarious.
JoeToe
Posted: 2012-08-03 11:49:52
Muay1,
You are hilarious.
Muay1
Posted: 2012-08-03 11:52:44
Good one.
JoeToe
Posted: 2012-08-03 12:00:52
Not as good as a two page essay from Shaun Boland. I'm kind of glad Neil kept it short though.
Nephilim
Posted: 2012-08-03 12:02:43
SANDY

"nephlin, very poor comments mr ! tut tut
again one whom probably hasnt attained ?"

1st point - not that i really care about my ax tagname but, seriously!? you can't even rewrite a simple word thats easily referenced? Not Nephlin, N-E-P-H-I-L-I-M. 2 syllables.

2nd - what on earth are you going on about? In what way are my comments poor? You say it but provide absolutely no reason why, no justification. If thats all you've got then fair enough, we'll move on, but if you've got a reason to say it, then you've got a reason to justify it.

3rd - "hasn't attained" what? a grading? Oh i did one once because i was made to. If thats not what you mean, again please explain, then explain why its a relevant point. If it's going to be the typical AX argument made when someone cant actually intellectually debate a point and says "so wot haz you dun in dis sport" as a way of writing off someones opinion/argument then again, we'll leave it there lol

Rich Ward
Posted: 2012-08-03 12:04:10
Wow I only really read AX 2 find out about shows I want 2 c as I neither train in Thai Boxing/Muay Thai or know any1 that does but I enjoy watching it even though the scoring baffles me, so I was quite interested in this thread..... It seems 2 have got a little out of control but although my opinion may not count 4 much I think that the more ppl involved, b it fighters or none fighters, ppl who grade or don't it can only help raise the profile of the sport in the west which can only mean good things 4 the guys and ladys who do fight.... Or maybe I just haven't got a clue.... Who knows :)
Sandy Holt
Posted: 2012-08-03 12:36:25
thankyou Rich and yes defo as its ALL muay thai
training, fighting, grading, interclubbing !
its all part and parcel! and ach to thier own with their selections
as choices are what lifes all about !!!
Sandy Holt
Posted: 2012-08-03 12:39:04
ach= each
chalky
Posted: 2012-08-03 12:59:55
Can anybody do Muay Thai?: YES

Can anybody do Gradings?: YES(If you want too and receive A4 Printed certicate and armband)

Can anybody do interclubs?: YES(If you want to)

Can anybody Fight?: YES(If you want to)

Can anybody watch thaiboxing shows?: YES(if you want to)

Think we know were this is going LOL.....

It's a big YES is you want to and NO if you don't!



Sandy Holt
Posted: 2012-08-03 13:14:09
100 POST
and Chalky
top Post
lets close this topic as you answered the question



Can Anyone train Muay Thai



YES !!!
Rich Ward
Posted: 2012-08-03 16:23:56
Can anyone do Muay Thai.... Yes!!! Even if they do it badly (which I would so I don't) if sum1 enjoys a sport does ability matter? If u go to your lesson, sweat your bum off but r still crap, does it really matter if u can only aspire 2 b what u would like 2 b? If sum1's happy trying, let them try.
robin shepherd jai
Posted: 2012-08-03 17:15:35
I think there is a large line between "doing " and "being"
Doing Thai boxing doesn't make you a Thai boxer
robin shepherd jai
Posted: 2012-08-03 17:20:55
In other words Someone who trains for fun and fitness.. Can they say they are a Thai boxer ?
IMO no they arnt
A Thai boxer is someone who competes in the art of muay Thai
Attitude
Posted: 2012-08-03 17:52:20
But if the wearing of blessed paraphernalia, going through supposed Buddhist ceremonies and entertaining cultural superstitions is deemed to be a necessary part of the deal for it to be called Muay Thai then that means confirmed Christians cannot “do Muay Thai”. When I was involved in a more martial arts based club where bowing etc was part of training there were people who refused to participate because it conflicted with their religious beliefs. This does not happen in any other “sport” so should it be part of this one. So again the question is “what is Muay Thai”? Is the Thai cultural part of the sport necessary or optional for someone to do Muay Thai? Without a clear definition then Sandy’s original question can never be answered.
Strong Hand
Posted: 2012-08-03 22:51:55
chalky
Posted: 2012-08-03 12:59:55


Can anybody do Gradings?: YES(If you want too and receive A4 Printed certicate and armband)



anyone who doesnt find this^ hilarious obviously has no sense of humour lol
HoostFan
Posted: 2012-08-04 02:10:23
Woah, thIs thread has exploded since I last checked.

So let me get this straight, Grand Master Sken did fight Muay Thai???!??

Has anyone ever seen a fight on tape in person or even seen a photograph of him fighting?

I thought, and I could be wrong that he was a taekwondo player like many wealthy people in Thailand then turned to muay Thai once he came to England?

If that's the case there is no shame in what he has done because he has still promoted the sport and trained fighters to a very high level.

A lot of the demo stuff etc is all a bit mr Miyagi for my tastes though.
Kru Shaun Boland
Posted: 2012-08-04 04:19:48
We are fortunate enough to have the freedom to express our opinions but I always feel with this should come responsibility. Because when we offer opinion it reveals more about us as a human being than the subject in question.
Sometimes an opinion is not really what it seems and the expression has underlying tones of insult. Quite often we hear an opinion starting with 'I'm not trying to be funny, but......' or 'I am not having a go at anyone, but.......' even though that is exactly the intention.

How easy it is to offer opinion and critique from behind a security blanket of no name or the security blanket of the above phrases, thinking that by veiling insults to those who have made a difference in this World, without any real thought as to whether they may cut deep into that person, hurting them and damaging their self worth.
Isn't it shameful and a poor reflection of a good human being that some people want to do this and yet try to defend themselves by saying 'I wasn't trying to be personal, it's just my opinion' or ' it's was just an honest question' and yet pepper their efforts with subtle words of insult

By offering negativeness you have to draw this from your 'self' and this resounds as an echo which can offer only a response of negativity back from which the purprotatur feeds from and yet foolishly believes this to be a proverbial meal to satisfy their constant hunger to bring others down to their failings and yet not realising that this 'meal' is actually rotting them inside.

How sad for those of you who know your intentions and to try to form an intellectual debate when in reality actually do little more than expose your soul.

I wish you well

With respect

SHAUN
billybigconkers
Posted: 2012-08-04 04:34:34
SHAUN you can't comment without writing an essay, SHAUN the best thing you could do to dispute anothers comment is post up some proof that contradicts the comment, in this case if someone posted up evidence of master sken fighting in thailand that would suffice

otherwise its all hot air
Kru Shaun Boland
Posted: 2012-08-04 04:55:17
An essay would of course be much longer than the few paragraphs that I have written, but hey, that's just semantics.

However, if you read what I wrote, I am not 'disputing' anyone's comments, I am actually bringing to the attention the fact that their is an underlying tone of looking for an opportunity to bring a highly respected figure down without any thought to whether or not this would be hurtful.

This is also directed generally and not just to the above 'Mr Miyagi' comment regarding Bramarjarn Sken.

It is okay if you feel this is just hot air, for as you know hot air always rises ;-)

Have a good weekend, I have a day of refereeing to do now so won't be back on here for a bit

Respect always

SHAUN
billybigconkers
Posted: 2012-08-04 05:09:23
SHAUN it rises because its got no weight to it ;)

enjoy your weekend
Kru Shaun Boland
Posted: 2012-08-04 05:16:57
Lol ;-)
Kru Shaun Boland
Posted: 2012-08-04 05:23:03
In my feeble attempt to gain moral high ground Hot air actually rises due to the Kinetic molecular theory which is to do with density not weight, but of course I am being pedantic and know what you meant.

See I can do short 'essays' ;-)

Enjoy!

SHAUN
billybigconkers
Posted: 2012-08-04 05:25:40
it rises becasue it contains less oxygen, oxygen adding weight or density
Muay1
Posted: 2012-08-04 06:42:24
It just gets worse.
keepyerguardup
Posted: 2012-08-04 06:57:02
is this what is meant by "the SCIENCE of the 8 limbs" lol
chalky
Posted: 2012-08-04 11:15:20
Stronghand: Thanks,Glad you like it ;-)

I think it's all been answered now lol
Strong Hand
Posted: 2012-08-04 12:07:23
didnt expect a physics lesson when I clicked on this thread lol
Sandy Holt
Posted: 2012-08-04 12:08:55
or a trophy manufactured lol

give it up Stronghand and Chalky was that a slight dig?

you wouldnt have taken any if you hadnt beleived in them?
just the same as all the interclubs you took part in ?
( fair play for doing them chalky) but dont slag them after you have done them
just do as ive been saying all the way through

Muay Thai is for ANYONE and anyone can do the Choices it offers !
Strong Hand
Posted: 2012-08-04 12:21:40
give what up? I thought that was funny, why does it have to be a dig for me to find something funny?

The Hammer
Posted: 2012-08-04 13:15:50
Can anyone do Muay Thai? YES

Does it matter what age, race, or sex you are? NO

Are gyms all about the fighters? NO

Muay Thai gyms are built around the people that train there, people who have trained there for 10 years or 10 minutes are just as important to the gym as well as each other. A Muay Thai gym is the one place on earth where discrimination of any type does not exist.

You make Muay Thai whatever you want it to be!!!

chalky
Posted: 2012-08-04 17:06:57
Christ on a skewer! Lighten up Sandy. :0)

I am very proud of all 7 interclubs i have done(to date)

I did the gradings to blue and it was what i wanted to do at that time.
The thing is with gradings they are worthless in the fact you can grade to lets say "brown" and go to another gym to train and they will not accept them/or your certificate!! And you then have to start again...? So no point,it's just a goal for yourself and NOT recognised by gyms/interchanging...

Only one gym asked me had i graded? i said yes,blue and they said they would honour it and i could carry on from that stage.
Fair play HKS!
chalky
Posted: 2012-08-04 17:16:12
My gradings and armbands and certiicates are in the bin,i wanted to do them 7 yrs ago but we all change and grow up.

My interclub trophys are all on display in my home with pics,chuffed with them all. As i am in the fact i still train like a loon putting lads half my age to shame.

Right back to my red wine..... chill out! Choices :-)

EVERYBODY ENJOY THAIBOXING end of....
Attitude
Posted: 2012-08-04 17:41:42
If talking science then I believe that it will show that only an octopus has eight limbs, calling Muay Thai “the science of eight limbs” must surely be a literal translation that actually makes no sense in English as humans can only have four limbs.
Strong Hand
Posted: 2012-08-04 18:50:50
eh you forgot spiders my friend lol
Dave Jackson
Posted: 2012-08-04 20:29:45
Makes me wonder how you all want your art to be seen by the public... In BJJ everyone respects a black belt! In Muay Thai its seen as wrong to have one ??
smeikl11
Posted: 2012-08-04 23:45:03
Cant compare these 2 Dave, not the same thing at all!!!
JoeToe
Posted: 2012-08-04 23:51:54
Yeh, Bjj is just like Wrestling, kind of how Muay Thai is just like Boxing. Wrestling doesn't have a grading syllabus so neither should BJJ.
Sandy Holt
Posted: 2012-08-05 00:39:55
lol this topic is ace
i luv AX plus it exposes the weekness in people !
ava nice day xxxx
JoeToe
Posted: 2012-08-05 00:58:01
I was being a smarty pants in that last comment.

If Muay Thai is the same as Boxing, then BJJ is the same as Wrestling. "error in math syntax"
FYI, BJJ is not Ju Jitsu, it's actually Judo with some other stuff added to it. BJJ is around 80 years old, while Muay Thai is estimated to be around 2000 years old.
Then we could point out that Judo and WTF TaekwonDo are Olympic sport and require 1st Dan Black Belt or higher to compete at that level.

I think what Dave Jackson was pointing out, is that other Combat Sports and martial arts either highly respect their instructor levels or leave them alone. Whilst, Ax Forum is known for slaggin of 40+ year highly respected Instructors for some anti authoritarian reason.

Then on the other hand, I'd have to highly support Chalky in that the Gradings in Muay Thai aren't recognized by rival clubs and thus starts a long progress of "re-grading". Good job on Chalky for pointing that out. Probably one of the biggest reasons why folks on here don't like grading in Muay Thai and to be honest I'd have to agree if that's the case.
Sandy Holt
Posted: 2012-08-05 01:25:02
GOOD POST
and strong hand can i ask you
whose your Instructor please??
i think i know him and hes trained at my gym a couple of times


Chalky its NOT about growing up
we grow old yes ALL of us and 1 FIGHT you, me and All of AX and the World will never beat !
you was a Pure full on Adult when you Passed your Grades and was your choice to take them NOT mine
i resent your remarks to be honest and thought you was better than to state those !
Sandy Holt
Posted: 2012-08-05 01:53:25
quick back to the subject
Topic Post Name
Can anyone do muay thai?




so if you attend a muay thai gym
and you dont fight?
then according to Robin sheppard and Liam R and a couple of others on here....

then you CANT DO? or be doing Muay Thai??


lmao

so what do you tell your family and friends ?
and what you put in your washing machine after a Thai Boxing session?

Invisible shorts? t-shirt and anklets etc: ?
lol


i will bet that in the UK -( most muay thai boxing Gyms than any other Country in the World bar Thailand itself )- that approx 80+ % of Practiononers "Dont Fight / compete"



Sandy Holt
Posted: 2012-08-05 01:54:52
so Tell your family and friends
you do.........


NO Thai
the New Muay thai lmfao


Attitude
Posted: 2012-08-05 03:58:41
Sorry Strong Hand for forgetting the ancient Eight Limbs Spider style which I believe is the nemesis of the Praying Mantis style. (just joking so hope it doesn’t offend any Kung Fu folk out there)
The Hammer, your comment about Muay Thai gyms being the only place on earth where any type of discrimination does not exist, is a hugely sweeping and incorrect statement. Just a quick look through the Joke thread on Off Topic will show gender and racial discrimination is bubbling away nicely.
My original training was in a school of self defence where Thai Boxing techniques were mixed in with techniques from a bunch of other systems and combat sports. No one fought, we didn’t wear any of the usual Muay Thai apparel or paraphernalia or indulge in any cultural ceremonies and yes, we did grade . Did I do Muay Thai?
HoostFan
Posted: 2012-08-05 06:25:30
Anyone can do muay Thai but you can't be a Thai boxer or nak muay if you don't fight.
The Hammer
Posted: 2012-08-05 06:30:44
Attitude.....it may be a hugely sweeping and incorrect statement in your opinion but it doesnt exist at my gym and if it does at other gyms then the students and instructors are guilty of letting it happen.

I agree and disagree with a lot on here and ALL are entitled to their opinion, but EVERYONE I train with are my extended family and I treat them with the upmost respect. Discrimination is bad enough in this world without it happening in the place you enjoy being the most.

And as per Sandy's original question 'CAN ANYONE DO MUAY THAI'?.......ABSOLUTELY 100% YES!!!!
Strong Hand
Posted: 2012-08-05 10:30:32
My instructor is Colin Anderson, from Carnage gym in grangemouth.
chalky
Posted: 2012-08-05 11:04:07
And so it goes on.....
Sandy,Yes adult when i took them and adult when i binned them,I paid and passed them and got shut of them.Sorry,but my choice! It's not a slight on you is it? They were mine to do with what i want. Like all my interclubs are on display,proudly!

Joetoe,Thank you! This is the single most biggest argument about the grading "system" is that what is the point if you grade and get your armband/certificate and then move to another gym? They are NOT recognised!! Pointless,unless they are? Why start again and have to re-grade? They should to have any creedance to them at all be recognised between gyms! Like i say only one gym has done that for me,HKS.

So going off that any coaches that have'nt graded or fought are crap? well?

Judo and Karate and BJJ are different as they are seen as a martial art by the public,ie:belts Just not sure muay thai is?

Ramon Dekkers did ok,and he Respected and won over the thai's by not doing wai kru's,wearing a armband,and plain shorts...and just watched instead of trying to be everything Thai.

Love and peace to all.
JoeToe
Posted: 2012-08-05 11:14:36
Stronghand!
Colin Anderson is your Instructor? Yeh, he's a good one.


JoeToe
Posted: 2012-08-05 11:22:52
Chalky,
You reach Black sash with one group only turn around and start to get to Red Armband with another. It does become pointless after awhile.
The same thing with fighting. There are sanctioning bodies that don't recognize others.

Strong Hand
Posted: 2012-08-05 11:50:45
if you are from the USA how can you possibly know who Colin is? does he have a strong following in the States? lol
JoeToe
Posted: 2012-08-05 13:00:41
Strong Hand,
I'm from Lancashire, I'm just stuck in the USA.

Does Colin Anderson have a following in the States? Probably up in the New York/ New Jersey area I would suggest.
Strong Hand
Posted: 2012-08-05 16:10:26
ok how does that answer my question about how you know Colin?

Strong Hand
Posted: 2012-08-05 16:14:46
Sandy.....is that you? lol

Nephilim
Posted: 2012-08-05 17:08:08
Joetoe - just a small correction, BJJ and Judo are completely different. Both are offshoots of traditional JJ. Tradition JJ included ground grappling (where BJJ came from), wrestling (where the Judo came from) and striking (where modern day JJ spends most of its time as well as factoring in the creation of multiple other japanese striking styles).

BJJ is not Judo with bits added.
JoeToe
Posted: 2012-08-05 17:51:18
Nephilim,
Nice history lesson and yes you're right. However, Muay Thai never came from Boxing. The use of Boxing gloves, weight classes and time limits was mandated by the King after a public death. So if we can safely say that Muay Thai is like Boxing, we can also say that BJJ is like Judo or Wrestling.
Nephilim
Posted: 2012-08-05 19:37:25
Um no, i never saiid that nor was it immplied by anyone else. What was said that it was run much more similar and is displayed in a format much more similar to boxing than other martial arts.

The comparison with BJJ and judo doesnt really apply, because it's completely different, as stated.
JoeToe
Posted: 2012-08-05 19:44:47
BJJ and Judo are similar as far as uniform, technique and use of the mat.
Boxing only uses hands, different shorts and boots.

What would make more sense is if Kickboxing and Muay Thai were compared. Kickboxing has it's roots in Karate, so we might not want to go there IMO.
Nephilim
Posted: 2012-08-06 01:47:36
OK. You're either dense and unable to to understand what I'm sayin or you're at the wind up.
Strong Hand
Posted: 2012-08-06 10:19:01
lol Nephilim Im starting to suspect that JoeToe is Sandy
JoeToe
Posted: 2012-08-06 10:48:21
Strong Hand,
I take that as an insult to my writing and literature abilities.

P.S. If you can "DO" Muay Thai, then anyone can. lol
Strong Hand
Posted: 2012-08-06 10:51:47
even though you seem to write in the same style?


eg. you start here,
then suddenly start a new line for no apparent reason

also Im pretty sure that Sandy is the only person Ive ever seen write "P.S" on Ax

you have been busted Mr Holt
Strong Hand
Posted: 2012-08-06 10:54:55
JoeToe
Posted: 2012-08-06 10:48:21

P.S. If you can "DO" Muay Thai, then anyone can. lol




is that supposed to be an insult of some sort? Genuine question btw? lol
JoeToe
Posted: 2012-08-06 10:55:53
Haha, nice try Strong Hand. I wished I was Mr Holt, maybe I'd be able to kick the apple of your head.
Muay1
Posted: 2012-08-06 10:56:01
good examples ha ha
JoeToe
Posted: 2012-08-06 10:58:02
I'm starting to wonder if Strong Hand is really Nathan Kitchen?
Strong Hand
Posted: 2012-08-06 10:59:34
lol Id actually pay money to be Nathan for just 1 day......giggity :D
Strong Hand
Posted: 2012-08-06 11:00:57
Ive also seen you get all worked up about the UKMF, which holds no jurisdiction in the USA as far as I know
JoeToe
Posted: 2012-08-06 11:03:05
I'd have to agree with you on that one.
Strong Hand
Posted: 2012-08-06 11:04:20
so you agree with me that you are Sandy Holt? good, that saves me alot of time lol
JoeToe
Posted: 2012-08-06 11:05:20
I'd have to agree about being Nathan Kitchen for one day. I don't like any of the sanctioning bodies TBH, so just like you don't like you don't like the politics of gradings, I don't like the politics of the ring. It's just opinions, don't take it personal m8.
Strong Hand
Posted: 2012-08-06 11:11:27
not the "politics" of grading, I dont see the point of grading a full-contact combat sport

the main reason I think you are sandy, is he asked me about my instructor. I answered and then you responded to it.....for no reason at all? Unless you were being critical about my coach(which you would have no reason to as you dont know him).


So Sandy, just come clean
Nephilim
Posted: 2012-08-06 16:49:01
hahahahahahhahahahahahaaaaaaa
Attitude
Posted: 2012-08-06 16:58:12
Hammer. Good on you, that's as it should be and as I run my club too but sadly discrimination is alive and well in this sport as anywhere else in life. I was commenting on the sweeping nature of your statement not your values which I respect.
ps
What was the topic originally being discussed?
Strong Hand
Posted: 2012-08-06 17:07:53
attitude, since you used "ps".....you are also under suspicion of being Sandy lol :P
Sandy Holt
Posted: 2012-08-06 23:15:22

hahaha strong hand oh dearrrrrr "PS"
wtf lol and does that mean TKD?
hahah oh dear conspiracaytheories
are you in the Cia? or the Nsa?
or Mi5 or are you Mdf? lmao
roflmao
lol
and all the rest of the letters lol
what in the world and how did you get joe toe was me from a "PS" ?
hahahahahahaha
you mad man lol


i have a profile just the one
iam me
i was me when i was born
iam me now
and thispiccy was taken the other week on my Birthday (26 ) and with my lovely girlfriend / lady



also joe toes just told you hes from USA but originally from not too far from Sunny Bolton as i also live in Lancashire where hes just told you hes from
and please do me a favour can you ask your Instructor has he ever visited? / trained at my gym?
and PS (lol ) has he read your comments and this thread???

Sandy Holt
Posted: 2012-08-06 23:17:00

"PS"

























Can anyone Do MuayThai



Sandy Holt
Posted: 2012-08-06 23:36:00
Strong hand
can you help( also please ask your Instructor )
and sorry to hi-jack my own thread lol
but seeing as this thread is getting so so so so much attention from those 5 little BIG words (can anyone do muay thai? )

maybe more eyes will read this and help us???


The Roundhouse Bolton Fights-
we are desperate for-

HELP NEEDED!!!!

I'm looking for a 63-65kg guy who's had 3 junior and 3 adult fights to fight this Sunday on the 12th August. Desperate his opponent just pulled out.

Also looking for a 56-57kg female 5 junior 3 adult fights to also fight this Sunday too due to her opponent pulling out cause of a bereavement!

Any takers? Please contact me Jussy senturk or Sandy Holt asap. URGENT
Strong Hand
Posted: 2012-08-07 08:01:48
no I cant help you with fighters, and yes my instructor knows I post on Ax, and has seen this thread. Also no he hasnt been to train with you



On another note, you are most certainly punching above your weight with your GF :P lol
blindleadingthestupid
Posted: 2012-08-07 09:51:16
hahaha strong hand oh dearrrrrr "PS"
wtf lol and does that mean TKD?
hahah oh dear conspiracaytheories
are you in the Cia? or the Nsa?
or Mi5 or are you Mdf? lmao
roflmao
lol
and all the rest of the letters lol
what in the world and how did you get joe toe was me from a "PS" ?
hahahahahahaha
you mad man lol


i have a profile just the one
iam me
i was me when i was born
iam me now
and thispiccy was taken the other week on my Birthday (26 ) and with my lovely girlfriend / ladyboy


also joe toes just told you hes from USA but originally from not too far from Sunny Bolton as i also live in Lancashire where hes just told you hes from
and please do me a favour can you ask your Instructor has he ever visited? / trained at my gym?
and PS (lol ) has he read your comments and this thread???


AndyC
Posted: 2012-08-07 15:35:34
"""Tradition JJ included ground grappling (where BJJ came from)""

I think you're wrong there Nephillim. As far as I was aware BJJ developed from Judo. I believe the Gracies learnt Judo from a visiting Japanese master and then developed BJJ from there.

Nephilim
Posted: 2012-08-07 18:09:14
It wasn't helio gracie that first started developing BJJ though he was one of the first - he developed his own brand called gracie-jui-jitsu.

the original guys who brought it to brazil WERE judokas, you're right about that and the changed it because they didnt like a lot of the ways in which judo was stuck to a very specific skillset. When looking on how to change judo for the better, they looked at judos parent art of traditional jui-jitsu and incorporated many of the elements of ground grappling they thought shouldnt have ever been removed as well as removed a lot of the elements they felt were unimportant.
Sandy Holt
Posted: 2012-08-08 14:57:01
B = Brazillian jj = jui jitsu


Sandy Holt
Posted: 2012-08-08 15:36:16

And finally to finish this Male Version of 50 Shades of Muay_grey-gray





Nephilim
Posted: 2012-08-08 21:57:07
Sandy I honestly have a hard time understanding you man lol.

I know you always say you don't touch drugs as "DRUGS are for MUGS!!!" as I've seen you type, but you should maybe try them at some point.

wee valium every now and then might chill you out a bit!
Sandy Holt
Posted: 2012-08-08 23:02:56
? what isnt there to understand?
do you not understand English? and Photgraphs?


and Yes Drugs Kill and are for Mugs
Chemicals Kill
why the funch would i try them?
im more chiiled out than anyone on stupid chemicals
I love and live life
we get 1 and its good and bad its called LIFE
but the goods damn good
as im Doing Exactly what i want
and 34 years of hard but amazing Thai boxing has helped me so much and i get to share it and help people
its mint !!!


you Want to Try some !

its called High On Life :-) x
Strong Hand
Posted: 2012-08-09 08:08:02
do you drink coffee? Caffeine is a drug. Any medication prescribed by a doctor is also technically drugs......so are you totally "drug free" as you state? I highly(get it? lol) doubt it?
Nephilim
Posted: 2012-08-09 09:11:27
"? what isnt there to understand?
do you not understand English? and Photgraphs?


and Yes Drugs Kill and are for Mugs
Chemicals Kill
why the funch would i try them?
im more chiiled out than anyone on stupid chemicals
I love and live life
we get 1 and its good and bad its called LIFE
but the goods damn good
as im Doing Exactly what i want
and 34 years of hard but amazing Thai boxing has helped me so much and i get to share it and help people
its mint !!!


you Want to Try some !

its called High On Life :-) x"


when you write like this sandy, its difficult to understand you. Its like the written equivalent of trying to understand someone talking who's had a heavy stroke.
HoostFan
Posted: 2012-08-09 10:49:16
Can Stephen hawking do muay Thai?

Sponsor
JoeToe
Posted: 2012-08-13 10:54:15
Don't know if Stephen Hawkin can, but I have seen and heard of disabled people both training and fighting in Muay Thai.
Sponsor:
Javascript is disabled in your browser. Please turn on Javascript to post messages.
Post your message
Name: Forget your password?
Password: Save password
Attach Picture:
Link to picture:
Text:
            

Create Topic

Username:
Password: Forget your password?
Topic name:
Create in:
 

Search Forum

Search topics for keywords: