I have been browsing thru certain kyokushin web pages and have found conflicting reports on Mas oyama fighting in Thailand back in 54.Most web pages that I have found recount the story of Oyama defeating a champion by the name Black cobra at Lumpini stadium.Is there any truth to this story?

This is a link of the story http://crane.50megs.com/index6w.htm

Hope someone can provide facts on this match.

Thanks
Hector Gomez

now that would have been a hell of a fight, any film???

I heard he Trained in Thailand or Watched them train and he was the FIRST Karateka to be open minded and ADDED the Thai Low Kick to his New Found Style of Karate Called as it is today Kyokoshinkai ! Innovative man ! :)

And so he SHOULD!!!
The Thai low kick is an excellent technique
NO stand up punching and kicking martial art shud be without it!
nowadasy ANY decent martial arts club is now incorporating Boxing hands ,... into their training ,... other techniques they have included :
Grappling
Thai Low kick

Now i dont care what anyone says,.. but ALL martial arts teach elbow and knee strikes,.. not in the same way a MT guy would,.. but every martial art seems to have elbows and knees. Thats right,.. even Taekwondo!!! even Lau GAR!!!
Shotokan for example have a KATA called "Empi"
what does Empi mean?
Your answer is,............. ELBOW!!!

Hah! thats bullshit.the thai stole all their techiques from the japanese.muaythai should be called thaikarate.

It is not a problem of technique in itself. Technique means nothing without stance, balance, footwork, combination skill. Empi is elbows ok but I dare someone try to apply them to a MT rounded stylist. Shotokan and other classic karate have interesting principles - in superior forms one can find things going as far as subtle stance adjustments, rhythm breaks, sophisticated footwork. Who has seen Nijushiho Sho and Dai, Jion, Jitte, Gojushiho Sho and Dai and the Tekki series knows what I am saying. It is only that they were not updated since ages to the modern situations. Which goes to what I said - let one try to do that stuff with a seasoned guy not an ignorant brawler then claim legitimacy.

I don't know about mas oyama fighting in thailand, but his top student at the time tadashi nakamura fought and won against a thai champion at the time. he is now the founder and head of seido juku

Unicorn is correct!

Unicorn is always correct, is unbelievable...

Yeah, well ... in my fighting days I'd have wished to be soo acurate as not to block with my jaw or my poor liver loool

Now as a coach it happens again with some of my students losing and me being frustrated as one can imagine ... sometimes it hurts more than one being hurt himself.

Unicorn, I wish you keep training fighters, and training, and writing here on Ax, because you are a MT philosopher, and I'm a lucky brazilian who knows a little bit about english and can read your words...

You have the priceless ability to write clearly, in details, as a great romancist...

Please don't feel frustrated, you have a huge knowledge about MT, and if your students lost their fights, isn't your problem... Keep in mind you made your best... Don't feel the pain of the others... As a coach, you have to be rigid, and without emotions in your job...

You are the men!!!

Cheers!!!

Unicorn,

Referene your comment about techniques not updated, you are absolutely right. --but don't tell the antiquarian traditionalist that, they will yell, "Blasphemy!" and order us to stand in Kiba dachi for an hour and say we need to practice more kata.(L)

So, back to the original question; any documentation to the claims of Mas Oyama fighting a thai fighter ring named Black Cobra in 1954? If so, where was the match held?



A. Bustillo

"...Even one as good as Matsui is susceptible to the flaws of the Kyokushin style. In the 3rd World Open, he was hit again & again to the face by a flurry of punches from an Indian fighter who did not care much for the rules. Matsui was brought down a few times due to these "foul punches". The Indian fighter was of course disqualified, but from here we can see that unlike the first generation students of Oyama (& he himself), the later generations of Karate fighters knew not how to defend their head from punches by a good boxer!..."





What is he trying to say about Kyokushin karate, kancho Matsui, Gerard Gordeau etc...??

Did not know how to defend their head from punches? Sure not!! Punches to the head/face is not allowed in Kyokushin, just like Jerome and Hoost don’t defend a knee strike to balls in the K-1.

The article keeps on in the same track - someone forgot to do his or her homework making this nonsense.

YENSKI lol hahahahah !

who is this black cobra?...there is no trace of his accictence?...what sandy is tell,ing is correct without any doubt?...

if you search the all karate styles until 1970's, you will easily recognize that the phislosophy of all technics are linear formed...only tsukis(direct punches,)mae geris (direct front kicks) and a bit yoko geri (in keage form only)and some shutos (knife hand) with nukites (spear hand) ...that's all...(by the way, i am not karateka ,never trained )...

oyama is the person who has brought circular form movements after kurosaki's challenges and knowledge in bangkok...he is a very bright, open minded,revolutunary person and contributed the circular movements to his style with the experience of kurosaki...that's why the kyokushin technics(especialy leg ones) are very similiar to mt...

by the way, i think that mt was also not so circular until 1950's...if you recognise the mt fight films of 1928's -1930's ,you will see that the kicks applied have been only some front kicks, no proper knees..only some direct punches and some front kicks ...that's all...however, it seems so that after the erection of lumpini and rajhandamdern, it has evolved (may be it is better to say revolved) a lot and with the assistance of the experience of frequently, intensive repeated fights many new, effective technics hhave been added to the discipline...briefly;"testing in the field and adding with the experience"...

In Nakamuras book "The Human face of karate"He goes on to mention that once they found out about the challenge made by the Muaythai exponents toward karate,very few of the kyokushin fighters new nothing about what to expect in Thailand.

It was only after being in Thailand months before due to constant cancellation of the bouts were they able to prepare correctly by training with muaythai practicioners in a gym.

This leads me to believe that Oyama was not really influential in assisting or preparing these fighters for their bouts something one would expect if Oyama had really gone and competed 10 years before.

Also,that triple ax kick performed by Oyama in Lumpini while knocking out a Muaythai champion is definitely throwing up my instant bullshit detector.

Rookie, I was half-kidding. Of course a coach has to be cold-minded, nevertheless God may protect you against the cold-hearted.
As for the Oyama stuff : Bluming explicitly demolishes the myth of Oyama fighting any MT stylist of some relevance. It actually doesn't matter. Even the fact that they defeated the Thais is of petty relevance imho because they simply didn't keep on with this, they just went back happy and but few things changed in the pyramid-shaped authoritary system of conceiving a karate school. Which proves again and again that not the technique in itself but the system as a whole are relevant. Imho, inasmuch Japan pushes up with the old pattern I do honestly not see any of them facing soon neither top europeans nor thais and winning more than as a happy accident (like Sakuraba vs the Gracies). It goes to the root of the thing, they build it too rigid to be able to adapt as soon as circumstances change. Maybe I am wrong, but I see the same thing happening wherever they export it, in my place the split between what is now IKO 1 and IKO 2 factions was ironically ready to happen before Oyama was dead, so his death was just a last door opening. And re. "antiquarians" I must say I am regularly posting on a local posting board of classic karate ... it is soooo sad to see people claiming to be masters of the sport and when asked about elementary conditioning they just nod (not to mention stuff like circuit training etc which looks like Chinese language to an Indian American :)) I had one of them visiting my gym and my kids were working upon some light circuit routine at the very half of the regular intensity, as no close match was to be expected ... the guy spread the rumor that I was killing my crew to impress him looool

hector,

it is today very clear that kurosaki (the second person at that time after mas oyama) is the only person who started,had strong contact with mt...he dealed with mt and due to strong contacts,ties with his former discipline kyokushin had benefited a lot by him...

believe me; until mid of 1960's none of karate styles(goju,shotokan,wado,shito etc) had any trace of any appereance of circular movements...all of them have been dealed only with linear technics...
hence, i believe that the contact of kurosaki with mt in bangkok was the start point of a revolution for karate styles (especialy for kyokushin) in accordance with "circular technics"...of course, in theory there might have been some circular technics in their pasts ...however, just only in theory and never practiced during trainings...and due to the open mind behaviour of it's leaders kyokushin was the pioneer ,leader in japan for circular moves for other styles which have been influenced also a lot...

cheers,

Ercan,

I hear you loud and clear,Do you know what Kurosaki is up to these days?We should all respect these types of pioneers that made the switch and crossover years ago.

Having to change and relearn certain principles and ideas on fighting must not have been easy.I would imagin Kurosaki helped pave the way for future stars like Toshio Fujiwara who probably learned Muaythai in a more natural setting by eliminating & not having to relearn new techs thus eliminating the potential for creating bad habbits.

To Hector Gomez,

Mas Oyama's so-called fight against Black Cobra is totally fictitious. The Thai didn't exist. Most of Oyama's exploits are bullshit. He even claimed Bruce Lee was his student. Kurosaki has been in semi-retirement. He trained Kohiruimaki, a K-1 middleweight for awhile, but Kohiruimaki soon got back to his old stable. you don't have to worry about stuff like Mas Oyama. It doesn't do any good to you since karate is an inferior art, and you don't have to bother it.

hector ,

i was just telling to contact "shingo", but he is very speedy and there is no need for this...

yes, you are correct : it is not so easy for someone to switch to another style and find himself in a new different environment in total different methality and philosophie...and the ones who can be courageous in doing this are realy openmind people...

as an example ,in the gym we had a sanda (wu shu) class also...their trainer has left the class and there have been about 15 students left alone...from this only 2 have had the courage to join another style and tried for success...currently they have been adapted and not so bad also...when asking the others they say : "if we do the switch , we would think that we have been cheaten a lot in the past since it has always been informed to us that what we have been learning has been the best and we wish not sacrificie anything in this dimension ..." you see very interesting ?..

cheers,