Dr Atkins?

Dr Who

what about him?
he's the so called pioneed of low carb diets (although low carb diets are what primative man were on anyway)
Atkins states that if once watches carb intake they can get into the "Metabolic Advantage" which means they no longer need to worry about calories, only carbohydrate grams and still lose weight by "Pissing fat cells out in ketones"
This is a load of hogwash. Whilst a low carb lifestyle has it's benefits and certainly leads to weight loss, the metabolic advantage goes against the laws of thermodynamics and does not exist.
However, eating a diet rich in protein and fats leads to more satiety than a diet high in carbohydrates which means you will probably eat less calories over all on a low carb diet meaning you lose weight. Low carb diets also mean less insulin spikes since carbohydrates are responsible for insulin spikes and it's insulin which is highly anabolic to fat especially thngs like refined carbs, and fructose, found in fruit which fills liver glycogen and liver glycogen easy converts to fat in adipose tissue, a process known as lipogenesis denovo.
Whilst fat is the body's preferred source of energy since it is so concentrated, it can take many months to fully fat adapt so that one uses fat efficiently as energy. If you're looking for fat loss then controling carbs is important but ultimately it's calories that are important. Carbohydrates should be consumed after working out though, preferably in the form of Liquid high Glycemic carbs such as glucos, mixed with protein this will shuttle nutrients to the body and thus aid the recovery process

Q: Knock, Knock!!
A: Who's there?
Q: Doctor.
A: Doctor Who?
Q: How did you know?

LOL! that was a good one

Knock knock?
whose there?
Doctor!
Doctor who?
Doctor whos here!
Doctor whos there?
"Just told you" !
:-p


BTW i just bought the book
and apparently ( not tread it yet though )
Everyone whos tried it and all have done well off it !
And the Nutrition and dieticians are all up in arms about it !
Its Not meant to work according to all Their journals and methods !

I don't believe it is the right way to go using this diet the best diet is to eat in moderation, don't over eat and drink plenty of water. No matter what you eat, whether it be a lot of fat, calories (sugar), carbs, or even things like protien if you eat more then your body can use it will just store it away and use the sorce later when it needs it hence why you get fat. The reason for this is because there is water soluble vitamins and fat soluble vitamins, if i remember correctly the fat soluble ones are a,d,e and i think k the water soluble ones are b,c,f and i think g? that's why vitamins like c you need to take every day because as soon as you take they come out the other end.

a little learning is a dangerous thing

NO learning is fatal

Dr Atkins makes a lot of sense, especially his comments about all these 'low-fat' processed ready meals that are just crammed full of sugar and salt instead. Our societies have become obsessed with 'low-fat' foods as if they are the Holy Grail of dieting and it's rubbish.

i tend to lead towards an isocaloric diet, everything in balance but not in moderation

moderation!?
there is a few A/X topics about this @ the Mo
who let the dogs out ?
who who who Woof woof woof
"ME" Woooops ! :-p

Dr Sears book is better!

Dr Sears?

he BURNS steaks :-p

most dietry "facts" are based on the nutritional information of the food stuff as is IN THE PACKAGE.
(it even admits it on the label, if you read it)
this does not take into consideration what happens IN THE BODY.

some folk, even respected instructors, think that the amount you eat directly correspond to the amount you uptake, it DOESNT.

Atkins diet proved it doesnt. (hence all the kafuffle now going on among nutritionalists)
-though genuine scientists have been saying that for years, but no one would pay or these findings to be published, cause no one could make money from the info.

"eat fat= store fat. that simple." "the more you eat the more weight you put on"

no actually.
the fat in your body is stored energy. but the energy comes from carbohydrates, and in the body in excess carbs are then altered and stored as FAT.
when short on carbs, your body will take the fat, break it down, and used the stored energy.
the amount of fat you eat has absolutley bugger all to do with the amount of fat on your body.
you body doesnt really need fat in pure source, as it can make it fine. thus
fat in the diet gets pretty much ignored as it passes through the intestine and you shit alot of it back out.



however, a high fat diet is bad for cholesterol and thus for yer heart- i'm told.



yes,
low fat foods are worse for you than hfoods with higher fat but less sugar.



hey,
shouldnt instructors have atleast a basic knowledge of metabolism??
i dont see how folk can be allowed to teach things they have no info or mis-information on.
(though all things turn out to be wrong if you allow enough time to pass.)

sears is the guy who wrote about the zone diet, it's an isocaloric diet. I like his ratios

The Zone is the only diet I would reccomend to anybody!

Whats the basics ? of this ? please ? cheers

The zone diet is done by Barry Sears, who believes eating 40% complex carbohydrates, 30% lean protein and 30% fat can help moderate the production of insulin-the main culprit in the creation of fat
that's what i just read in this magazine
there are so many diets here is a list of the few in this magazine
THE ATKINS DIET
THE ZONE DIET
THE DETOX DIET - There are many variations, but basically means giving up meat, fish, wheat, sugar, diary products and alcohol... and drinking litres of water.
EAT FOR BLOOD TYPE - Blood type As aviod meat and dairy products. Blood type Bs should eat red meat and fish but avoid chicken and shellfish. Blood type Os eat lots of animal protein but less carbohydrates. (Just a thought what if you AB positive or AB negative wouldn't it just stuff ya!)
FOOD COMBINING - It separates foods that don't digest well together. The main rule is not to mix starch and protein - so bergers are OK, but no bun.
CABBAGE-SOUP DIET- This diet claims to help you lose up to 5kg in a week. It's based on a nutritious soup with a very low kilojoule and fat content. At the same time you can also eat lots of fish chicken, fruit and vegetables. Pitty if you don't like cabbage.
THE GI DIET - It works by excluding saturated fats along with refined carbs, which have a high glycaemic index (GI). high GI foods, such as biscuits, sweets and white bread, give the body a quick fix by getting into the system fast.
The OMEGA DIET - An eating system based on 12 food units a day that are said to give you all the nutrients you need without weighing and measuring. It is also great for treating dry skin.
THE DAIRY/WHEAT FREE DIET - Dairy and wheat intolerances are relatively common, and by cutting them out you can lose weight while also reducing discomfor and bloating. Experts advise this diet requires careful balancing to obtain optimum nutrition, and advise also taking daily multivitamins and calcium.
THE SCARSDALE DIET - When followed to the letter, this diet will cut your kilojoules to 4100 a day, halve fats and slice back your carbohydrates enough to lose up to 4.5kg every week.

so which diet is the best, which is the healthiest, which one works, and which one is best for long term??

The Zone

in his eat fats an low or no carb diet he died of blocked arteries in his heart because of too much saturated fat in his diet...true story.

r u saying dr.atkins died of blocked arteries?because if u r you're dead wrong.he died last winter after falling and hitting his head because of ice.
as far as high fat clogging arteries,the atkins diet out did the american heart assoc. diet.this study was done by harvard university.ppl using this diet lost more fat,lowered bad cholesterol, and raised good chol.

And in Ref: to Diets ?
its this easy !
its what Suits
Like Clothes too i guess !
:-p
strange BUT true !

Dave you say the Zone diet is the best why is the Zone diet the best? I don't know much about it maybe you can enlighten us?

Wow, People are making a lot of cash from the uneducated masses.

u r right !

Chloe:

Because it recognises the bodies needs for a balance of protein, carbs and fats. This makes the diet a balanced one and not a short term faddy or ketonic diet. It also teaches you how to eat without causing insulin spikes which are one of the main reasons westerners put on weight. It explains the difference between low glycemic and high glycemic carbs and focuses the user on eating a healthy diet for life.

check out www.johnberardi.com

read up on his don't diet diet protocol

Berardi works with athletes in mind as sears et al don't really

or a quick link to john berardi's article in testosterone Magazine

make sure to scroll down to the second question but the first question asked is pretty important too :) it's about EFAs

Ive Eaten well ALL my life! Im same weight as 20 years ago Exact ! Never Been more than 3 pounds eithwer side of 61 Kilos, Im 60 @ the Mo:
SO BUY SANDYmans-DrHOLTS-ZONEified-Atkinless-Diet-TO-GLORY

sandy but you train like a mcmadman ;)

but anyway if you are revealing your diet secrets we're listening :O)

shhh i will whisper them to you !!!!!!!!!!!!
Put your Ear to the P.C.












can you hear me ?
















Closer.

















Come here.......

















OK





















"BOO"



Cant tell ya coz when i do the `BOOOK` on:-
SO BUY SANDYmans-DrHOLTS-ZONEified-Atkinless-Diet-TO-GLORY

Seriously though.... without the total lifestyle bull ( remember we train to wrap shins around our opponants necks....not very healthy!) what have u guys found to be an effective RAPID weight loss regime? In Thailand, they just cut the rations ( calory control?). But ive had fighters who have been on as little as 800 cals/day while training and have found that their metabolism adjusts to this 'famine' state - meaning they are always hungry/miserable, but the weight stops falling.
Ive lost as much as 9kg/3 week stint on atkins 3 times now and am quite happy that my energy/general health did not depreciate. And, though bored of the regime, I never felt hungry. (Ive lost weight on low cal regimes too - no probs if the motivation is there). Unlike Sandy, my weight is highly dependant on training and diet - loosing/gaining 5+ kilos per couple of months! Before I started muay thai, i weighed 100+ kilos.
So ignoring the healthy lifetime regime advocated by girly magazines and concentrating on fighters weight loss - Dr Atkins?

sid, it's kind of a catch 22 situation, as my coach jag says, you should fight at your nnatural weight that you feel comfortable with
makes sense to me!

I didn't read all of this but has anyone thought about or mentioned low glycemic foods as opposed to high?

Talking about spiking insulin...well high glycemic carbs do and low don't...carbs are not the problem. The type is.

Sid-know anyone whos done it for a couple years?

I just saw Dave mention high and low glycemic foods...

Low glycemic does not spike insulin levels... thats the problem with the carbs most people eat... Sorry but I'm not switching to eating fat just yet.

Good luck to all of you gorging on the fat.

For weight loss, somebody that trains 3-5 times a week would need 15x their body weight (in lbs), a fighter will probably need 18x or up to 20x in order to maintain their bodyweight. minus 5 from this to lose weight, so a fighter would want to eat 15xbodyweight to lose weight. For good weight loss, you want to cut out anywhere from 500 calories to 1000 calories a day for a while. Give yourself one cheat day too, and REALLY cheat. We're talking cheesecake here. that way you wont' crave it the next week.

Cutting more than 1000 calories a day tends to put you in famine mode that somebody else mentioned, which is where i've been for the last 2 years :( Before I was 6-7% body fat at 175 and I probably ate around 3,000 calories a day. Because I've been so busy since then I'm lucky to get 2,000 calories a day. The result? I'm now 185 at 11%. Makes no sense but that's how the human body has adapted.

For all of you curious about the atkins diet, there is a much better ketogenic diet option called the cyclical ketogenic diet. There is a book by Lyle McDonald on it that is a much better resource than the Atkins book for those of us who know something about nutrition and exercise. (Atkins wrote for the Oprah crowd) The book may be out of print but here's a good article by him:

http://www.thinkmuscle.com/articles/mcdonald/training-on-ketogenic-diet.htm

Basically, the Atkins diet works great but few people can stay on it fora long time because it basically feeds off of your low self esteem and will power :) The cyclical diet gives you 1-2 cheat days where you can eat all of your junk, which also gives you better performance while losing weight. I personally don't believe any low carb diet, meaning one where you take in less than 30 grams of carbs/day, should be used long term or for life. Just if you want to lose weight, be it 300 lbs. or 12 lbs. I personally always had better results on the zone diet. If you use the zone, be sure to use your body's caloric needs rather than the author's recommendations because they are too low for athletes.

The zone diet uses blocks to get the right amount of calories/nutrients in your diet. ignore how he recommends finding how many blocks you need. Here's my example:

I'm 185, but I want to be 175. (let's also assume I'm training a lot here and say that I'd need 20x175 to mainain my bodyweight) I'd use 175x15 as the amount of calories to figure my blocks with because I wont' be depriving my body of more than 1,000 calories. (if I was,I would have to work towards less weight loss first) I would have to get to a lower weight, say175 x 15 = 2,625 calories a day

So...The zone diet recommends a 40/30/30 ratio of carbs, protein, and fats. Break this down, and it translates to one carb block being 9 grams (example: a banana would be about 3 blocks), protein block equalling 7 grams (so a normal sized chicken breast is about 4-5 blocks), and a fat block is 3 grams. (a little bit of butter or olive oil) So for every block of one you eat, you have to eat one of the others too. this gets a little tricky at first but as you get better at reading nutrition labels, it becomes instinct.

If I need 2,625 calories a day to get to 175, first I need to figure how many grams of protein I need a day. So 30% has to be protein: .3x2,625 = 787.5 calories from protein. 787.5/4 (there are 4 calories in a gram of protein) = 196.875 grams of protein a day. So, a protein block is 7 grams? Figure that's 197/7 = 28 protein blocks. So then I need 28 carb blocks and 28 fat blocks to go with it. Get the complete book of Food counts by Corrine Netzer to figure how many calories/protein/fat/carbs your favorite fast food or restaraunt food has, figure how many blocks your regular favorite foods have by reading the labels, and go from there. It takes at least a few weeks to get into a good set program that you feel comfortable with, but you will definitely notice a difference in how you feel.

One problem with calorie counting is that some calories will turn to fat more than others will. Fat calories, and science has known this for a long time, turn to fat much easier, and with out working the body with the conversion, than protein or carbs.

Also most people figure out the amount of calories to eat with formulas that use weight in the equation. Well a person thats 130lbs of lean mass and 90lbs of fat doesn't need to eat the # of calories that a person thats 170lbs of lean mass and 50lbs of fat.

So basing an equation on weight doesn't makes sense.

Also you don't want to just cut a shit load of calories from your diet. Your body tries to protect its self. Even if you have 100lbs of fat your body thinks of that as its self and fights to prtect it. It develops all the adipose cells, capillaries, enzyme counts, peripheral nerves, hormone levels, and connective tissue to support it.

So then we jump on the newest biggest diet and shed pounds in a matter of hours(well almost). So the body panics and slows metabolism, increases fat storage and increases appetitie.

The trick is to do it all very slowly, don't scare your body, don't go for any crazy diets, it is abillion dollor industry(cause we keep going back-wonder why?).

Thats why people yo-yo. The diet does make them lose weight (probably partly from canabolized muscle) and you can fight your body and fight it with the crazy don't eat enough diets but its inevitable you'll jump back up.

Lose it slow, slow, slow.

CNN (if you can believe what they say)

"Atkins slipped on an icy sidewalk outside his New York office."

he died as a result to that...however

'In April 2002, Atkins was hospitalized after he went into cardiac arrest, which he said in a statement was "in no way related to diet."'

Of course he'd say that..

I have done this diet, lost 6 pounds in 3 days, but then gave up because I was so hungry and i couldnt move out of bed.

I wouldnt advise it. I am getting good results on the Slimming world diet, with just green days(lots of pasta).

Results huh? Fast results ARE too good to be true. Good luck my friend but what do you mean by results?

Did you know many runway modles are obese? Depriving your body of what it needs may make you lose weight but it doesn't mean you'll be healthy and it certaibly means that you are fighting it every step and if you eat properly it will store all the fat it can.

Without sufficient food the body will eat muscle and try to store fat. Thats why everyone yo-yos. Lose it, gain it, lose it, gain it.

Lose it slow and your body doesn't panic. It will not put it back on unless you over eat.

Don't lose more than half a pound of fat a week. And don't go by scales for that. Get your fat levels checked once a month.


'diets' will eventually make you fatter and make it harder next time to lose the weight.

Eat a low, low fat diet, don't eat any foods that have more than 20% fat calories, cut sugar(concentrated fruit jiuce means sugar as does a million other things-OJ has more sugar than pop often enough), eat complex carbs, 5 small meals aday, avoid all fad diets, good multi vit and min, chromium picolinate suppliment, l-carnitine suppliment, 40grams mixed fibers, flax oil... etc etc

Rates of colan cancer are 10 times that of many Eastern nations.

Dr. Walter Willet and colleagues at Harvard studied 88,751 women. Women who eat beef, pork, or lamb daily have a 250% increase risk of colan cancer.

Red meat is also now linked to prostate cancer in a study of 14,916 physicians.

Processed meats, hopefully obviously, are bad. Pickled, salt-cured, smoked, nitrated, and charcoal-cooked meats contain carcinogens.

Never mind what we give to live stock.

In 1991 the US made about 15 million lbs of antibiotics. Guess what? Almost half went into live stock and pultry. We eat it.. Never mind the drug resistant strains of salmonella etc..

Food poisening bacteria kill 2000 Americans every year and make another 6 million people very ill.

Then theres hormones etc..

A lb. a week of weight loss is perfectly healthy; 2 lbs. a week is healthy for somebody with a significant amount of weight to lose. (more than 20 I'd say) You're gonna burn some muscle too but the goal of eating more protein in a diet is to reduce lean muscle loss. If you eat a low fat high carb diet to lose weight you're telling your body that you don't need the muscle around and it can be used for energy. Protein tells your body to keep it.

As long as you don't cut out more than 1,000 calories a day in your diet, you won't go into famine mode. Give yourself a cheat day and you won't go crazy either :)

i wanna know how many studies saying meats cause this or that were done with ppl who eat meat by itself as opposed to eating meat with carbs of some sort.the 3 macros are all involved i'm sure,but fat and protein get the bad rap.

ppl have been eating low fat for a long time and we are only getting worse.type 2 diabetes is outta control.whats causing it?not meat.the only thing that could is chronic carbohydrate use.why you ask?because we are wearing out our insulin receptors.meat can't cause this.

low fat?what are you doing to your bodies ability to make hormones?killing it.what about fat soluble vitamins?you need fat to utilize them.what about essential fats?ones your body can't produce,and need to get from outside sources?
the are no essential carbs,no carb soluble vitamins.

there are ppl who have thrived on meat and fat alone(eskimos)and modern ppl who were fed grains only or mostly and suffered from pellegra(prisoners and slaves in the south) and ricketts(in english orphanages).

and can some one please tell me?maybe unicorn can if he's still around.what is the human digestive system more like.is it more like a carnivores or a herbivores?

and also,why is the meat we eat today so fatty? free range animals have lean meat. they eat grass and shrubs. farm animals are herbivores also but they aren't as lean. but they don't eat fat and meat because they are herbivores. so meat and fat aren't making them fat. so what fattens them up? well they are feed grains. could that be what fattens them up? if i'm right and grains cause pure herbivores to gain fat,then what do they do to omnivores?don't fear the fat,don't fear the carbs,fear the freakin' grains.

You don't want to cut calories by more than 20%. Thats 400 off of a 2000 cal diet. Thats 2800cal a week or 0.8lbs. But you'll only lose about .5lbs because of increases in body efficiency. Lose more and you'll trigger body deffenses.

Again, you make no distinction between high and low glycemic carbs..

kirk-people have been eating low fat for a long time huh!!?? Is that like the diet pops and light pizzas?

Ahh, good fats and bad fats. Big differance and I did mention that above. Good fats are very, very important. But you don't get much of that by barbequing some beef now do we or frying some chicken.


Anything can make you fat. Especially fat. Its actually scary how many cows are fed meat etc. Dead cows, even ones that have had mad cow etc. Road kill, what not. If you think that grass fattens cows up fast enough for the farmers to make good money alone? They aren't always fed just grains. the old days maybe but today? Too big a buisness.

You see many fat deer, elk, moose etc? Trust me, they eat greens etc no meat in their diet.

How many vegies in todays world get rickets etc???

All these "fad" diets work, but I have heard from some people that have done the Atkins thing that they just re-gained the weight/fat when they stopped the diet.Thats the problem with most of these diets, but some do work.....But that is just my horse shit opinion.

kirk-check out the study. You might be right. 88,751 women may have been eating just meat there whole lives all by itself. Same with the 14,916 physicians. You think they all ate just meat?? That would be a lame ass study.

"All these "fad" diets work, but I have heard from some people that have done the Atkins thing that they just re-gained the weight/fat when they stopped the diet.Thats the problem with most of these diets, but some do work.....But that is just my horse shit opinion."

People can't stick with the atkins forever because it doesn't give you a cheat day, and people go crazy. they then get stuck in this viscious cycle of guilt over feeling like they failed for (gasp) not wanting to eat meat and fat exclusively.

the atkins diet works and believe it or not, bodybuilders pre steroid era used low carb diets to cut up for a contest pretty much exclusively. I believe studies from Harvard (when the study was started to disprove his claims, if I'm not mistaken) as to it's benefits much more than I believe some NYT reporter trying to dig up dirt. Dr. Atkins was ancient when he died and had a genetic heart problem. He went into a coma after that fall and become very bloated which is where everybody is getting the idea that he actually died of a heart attack. It's really pretty tasteless to just go after somebody like that when they're *dead*, and it shows how petty and catty the nutrition biz is.

And Mark, after believing in the low/high glycemic index thing for years, (and it does matter) I've found through experience in dieting that calories in/calories out matters a lot more than what type of carbs, or even fats, that you're eating. The only problem with high glycemic index carbs is that you usually won't be full after eating a sensible portion of them, but that isn't a problem for me personally. (besides, I love a ripe to the point of being near rotten banana, and nobody can make me stop eating them, dammit)

Body builders need way more protein than your adverage Joe trying to eat healthy and exercise a little.

I think your body adapts to what you eat IF you are getting everything it needs. Right now i don't think I could finnish a can of pop. If I have dessert at a resturant its sickening part way through. I use to have a major sweet tooth. I think if you go on a diet where you need a 'cheat' day then your body is craving something, it might not even be the sweets.

He did go in for cardiac arrest in April '02 though. You say its a genetic thing huh? Can you explain please?

'Bad' fats actually screw up 'good' fats and like you said, they are very important. So how does that work when you are eating lots of bad fat?

"The only problem with high glycemic index carbs is that you usually won't be full after eating a sensible portion of them.." Can you give some examples of a good meal with low glycemic carbs?

I never said no meat or protein either. But mainly that??

I try to eat two servings or meat a day (tofu/eggs etc actually for me more than meat) I also have two protein shakes a day. i am not against protein at all. Athletes need even more than those with a sedentary life style of course.

But I try not to eat any 'bad fat'. I say none because its everywhere and I always get a little. I add 'good fat' to my shakes.

I stay away from sugar as much as possible except low glycemic fruit etc

I only go for 3 servings of grains. 6 veg, 4 fruit, 2 meat, 2 dairy (maybe soy) and 1 high glycemic or high fat daily.

Now this is what I try for..I'm not always on the mark.

Can you put in servings what you think is good for me please?

Now I eat that much as an athlete and someone who does weights...

mark,
the point i was making about eating meat alone was this.how did they determine that the fat content of their diet caused disease when all 3 macronutrients were present in their diet?maybe there is a pre determined notion that grains are harmless,so it has to be something else.
having a group of ppl eating only meat, a group eating all carbs,and one eating all 3 would be a better study.

as far as the cattle thing,yeah, they are fed mostly grain,because it is cheaper and faster than maintaining an all grass feed.thats why free range cattle cost more.
and i know some cows have been fed cow by products.that is how mad cow got started.but it isn't a major part of their diet.
greens,grass and such yield far less calories than grains.the caloric difference between grass and oats is probably night and day.you don't see fat deer and elk for this very reason.the grains in the cattles diet has also screwed up the omega fats ratio.making them rich in omega 6 and def. in omega 3's.so if sat. fats are indeed bad,it's the grains are meet is fed that causes it.

low glycemic/high glycemic.thats nice but not always good.milk has a low glycemic index but a huge insulin index.and it in no way gives any info on the effects wheat has on our body.wheat is very allergenic.many ppl are allergic to wheat not many are allergic to greens and meat.if it's good for us and we're meant to eat it,why is this?

vegans aren't all def. these days because they know they have to mix their grains with other grains to get the right amino acid profile.there was a thing not too long ago about pregnant vegan mothers being def.because of their diet and the babies had some type of problem from this.
meat eaters could get the essential amino acids from any animal without having to mix it with other meat.
my point was eskimos lived off of one main source of food,fish and thrived.try that with just one source of grain.

tim,calories in versus calories out isn't always a good yard stick.you can eat more calories on a high protein diet than you can on a high carb diet.
and i'm glad you brought up the harvard study.for some thats proof enough.

you dont need to go on a diet to lose weight.Just start eating the right things, at the right times, and dont eat on a night, and the weight starts pouring off. Even better when you train every night. My instructer told me this, and it does work!!

you dont need to go on a diet to lose weight.Just start eating the right things, at the right times, and dont eat on a night, and the weight starts pouring off. Even better when you train every night. My instructer told me this, and it does work!!

you dont need to go on a diet to lose weight.Just start eating the right things, at the right times, and dont eat on a night, and the weight starts pouring off. Even better when you train every night. My instructer told me this, and it does work!!

exactly.but what is good food?

and i disagree with eating at night.your body is a 3 shift factory,there are metabolic activities going on all the time.

your body is constantly in the state of repair or replication.the protein turnover rate,i'm sure is very high.

excersisw first thing in the morning will get you the best results too.

kirk-ok so those who didn't eat as much meat didn't get as much cancer but your saying that if those that did eat meat and then cut out what the others were eating when they didn't get cancer they wouldn't get it either? I guess thats possible.

Could you share some studies with us?

kirk-I'm not so sure about the diet on cattle.. I do know anything will make you fat if you over eat and don't exercise. Obviously farmers are trying to fatten up cattle.

You are saying milk spikes your insulin??? I know its high in fat but I have never heard of it spiking insulin levels. (its also designed for calves, not people)

Almost everyones defficient.

This is from 1981 but I would think we'd be getting worse if anything..

37,785 US citzens tested..
80% defficiant in B6
75% magnesium
68% calcium
57% iron

etc etc

Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (Hanes1) 28,000 peopl from 1-74

9 out of 10 women insufficient iron
1 in 2 insufficient calcium

over all 60% showed some signes of malnutrition regardless of income level

Ten State Nutritional Survey
86,000 people

In Michigan more than half the people tested were defficient in folic acid
Texas-1 in 4 men and 1 in 3 women defficient in VitA.
S. CAl-1 in 3 deficient in B2

This one showed that 2/3s of people were malnurished and they only tested 1/5th of the 59 essential nutrients needed for optimal health.

Defficiencies are every where.


This doesn't nessasarilly add to arguements but you mentioned deficiancies...

Don't most Americans eat more meat than much of the world though. Its life expectancy is way below many other countries who eat less meat.

But you are saying meat is only dangerous when you eat grains with it? Are you also saying that grains are not dangerous if eaten without meat or they still are?

Rickets is caused by lack of VitD right? How does eating grains effect this?

What do Eskimos eat? Seal fat? What type of fat is seal fat and how, if at all, does it differ from the saturated crap America gorges on?

I don't think Eskimos eat beef, chickens, and pork much do they?

"It turns out that the people of the north have a highly evolved physiology that makes them well suited to life in the arctic: a compact build that conserves warmth, a faster metabolism, optimally distributed body fat, and special modifications to the circulatory system."

That could make a differance when packing in the fat.

Vit C.."sources include the organ meats of sea mammals as well as the stomach contents of caribou"

This was allt o do with Vit C

So when do we get some studies etc on this.

Eskimo diets has been one thing a few people have told me to back up claims but I'm sure they don't eat the same way we would even if we went on the Atkins thing.

What did they eat? What types of fats were they getting etc...

I think if they ate what is recomened by Atkins they wouldn't survive.. but thats just a guess... :)

"The latest theory is that it is because of the marine fat rich in Omega-3 three that they eat which offer them such protection." Now eating lots of omega 3 fat is a big differance than pounding back the pork chops

eating saturated fats messes up omega 3s and 6s too..

if sat. fats are bad why do so many ppl on atkins have their blood profiles improve when on the diet?

how come the atkins diet out performed the american heart assoc. diet when tested at harvard?

if i were eating alot of grains i would eat them by theirselves.

as far as ricketts goes.do the search.i read it was do to high consumption of oats, and little else.

and i feel our systems are meant to eat meat 1st and greens 2nd.think about it.meat is available all year round.fruits and veggies would only be available when the season was in.

Think about it...our bodies are designed to exist in a tropical climate, close to water...where plants exist all year round. The eskimos bodies had to evolve in order to withstand the arctic. Naturally, people are designed best for warm climates where plants are plentiful.

Also consider that there are winter/fall vegetables as well. Ever heard of winter squash? Borsht is a soup made from beets that was created in Russia, where it is damn cold. Beets are harvested in the late fall, early winter.

There are so many different ways to look at everything. I think it's best not to form too many strong opinions. Always question, rarely (or never) conclude.

"I think your body adapts to what you eat IF you are getting everything it needs. Right now i don't think I could finnish a can of pop. If I have dessert at a resturant its sickening part way through. I use to have a major sweet tooth. I think if you go on a diet where you need a 'cheat' day then your body is craving something, it might not even be the sweets."

This is very true, and why I never stress that people feel a need of urgency to switch to a healthier eating style. It'll come with time, even if you screw up a bunch. Eventually, you realize that junk food makes you feel crappy.

"He did go in for cardiac arrest in April '02 though. You say its a genetic thing huh? Can you explain please?"

http://atkins.com/Archive/2004/2/10-133186.html

If you ever worked in the fitness industry, you realize that everybody involved in it hates each other. Nutritionists/dieticians are the worst. When somebody like Atkins comes along and challenges all the ancient data that they use in their practice (A lot of cited studies are from the 30s and would not stand up to modern scientific scrutiny) all of them went crazy, even if some things he said reinforced their beliefs.

"'Bad' fats actually screw up 'good' fats and like you said, they are very important. So how does that work when you are eating lots of bad fat?"

I dont' think there is such a thing as "bad fat" unless you're talking about hydrogenated stuff. as long as you're not eating mcdonalds all the time and you're exercising, a few steaks a week isn't going to kill you.

"The only problem with high glycemic index carbs is that you usually won't be full after eating a sensible portion of them.." Can you give some examples of a good meal with low glycemic carbs?"

Anything with vegetables, grains, etc.. Bread where the first ingredient is "whole grain wheat" is much better for you than white bread, obviously. I get most of my carbs from fruit when I'm eating right. I also like Grape Nuts flakes, i'm not sure if they ahve them everywhere but they're nummy, low in carbs compared to other cereal (meaning you can eat more) and have a pretty low glycemic index. (40 or 50 I think)

"I never said no meat or protein either. But mainly that??"

Some people like this for dieting, but I think they're crazy if htey want to eat like that all the time. ESPECIALLY if theyr'e an athlete.

"I try to eat two servings or meat a day (tofu/eggs etc actually for me more than meat) I also have two protein shakes a day. i am not against protein at all. Athletes need even more than those with a sedentary life style of course.

But I try not to eat any 'bad fat'. I say none because its everywhere and I always get a little. I add 'good fat' to my shakes."

Chicken breasts, baby. I eat eggs, chicken, and protein shakes. Plus 3-4 steaks a week, usually. And you'd probably want to eat about .8-1.0 grams of protein per pound of body weight a day if you're active.


"I only go for 3 servings of grains. 6 veg, 4 fruit, 2 meat, 2 dairy (maybe soy) and 1 high glycemic or high fat daily.

Now this is what I try for..I'm not always on the mark.

Can you put in servings what you think is good for me please?"

How much do you weigh? I think that as long as you stay under 60 grams of carbs at a time, you're fine. And of course, don't eat too many calories for your bodyweight.

http://atkins.com/about/recentnews/wsjresponse.html

Oopos, here's something on his heart condition.

And c'mon, even if he did have a heart attack caused by normal reasons he was FUCKING OLD PEOPLE! :)

.8-1gram of protein per pound of body weight. So if someone was 120 lean mass and 80lbs fat they should and someone was 170 lean body weight and 30lbs fat they should use your same equation??

I know this doesn't mean the info is wrong but I just did an image search for Dr. Atkins. Even in the older pics you can tell hes big, and thats with a suit on most of the time. Theres no proof in that but if he is walking the talk it didn't work for him. Just double checked...he's a pretty big guy.

he weighed in at 195lbs. the day he went to the hospital.he was hardly fat.couldn't he be just big.

and at 72 played tennis alot.

6 ft.195 lbs. doesn't seem fat.

195lbs tells me nothing. how fat you are and weight don't always add up nicely.

Pics look to me like hes big. Could be lots of muscle, I don't know.

"Mark L. writes:

.8-1gram of protein per pound of body weight. So if someone was 120 lean mass and 80lbs fat they should and someone was 170 lean body weight and 30lbs fat they should use your same equation??"

Are you fat? Why do you care? :)

going by lean mass is one way, and more precise, but honestly, it doesn't really matter. I've seen people ripped to shreds and athletic as hell that ate 2 grams/lb. of body weight. An old coworker of mine insisted that I eat 200 grams of protein a day to get ripped. I did it for a while and lo and behold: I got ripped. Felt pretty good too.

Jesus christ though, talk about a high maintenance diet...you can either get it from protein powder and have WWIII with your ass, or spend half your day cooking.

I was also under the impression that Atkins was pretty tall, like 6'3-6'5. Could be wrong though.

i knew he was at least 6' but he maybe much taller.

look at the pics, big is big. He night have a body builders stomach but he looks big. This doesn't really matter in terms of if its good or not but he doesn't look that fit to me in the pics.

Tim-200grams isn't that much. What was your lean body weight? Yes it does matter i think. You tell some fat guy to eat more than he needs to when trying to lose some weight. Of course it matters. You don't need to feed fat! (certainly not with fat, but thats just my opinion).

I would only strictly use the equation with people in decent shape though as fat people shouldn't loose weight too fast. Want proof, ask any fat person who lost alot of weight fast if they gained it back.

Everyone out there yo-yos and its not just about life style. Your body deffends itself, fat and all. You take it off slowly if you don't want to excite fat storage enzymes(I think thats what they are).

Going on a diet and jumping on the scale is probably the best way you can get fatter. Not only physically but when you gain back it hurts you mentally.

Lose it slow!! OK how many Ax users are there??

Who has done the Atkins diet? How long? Anyone last over a year? Results please?

I lost 8 ibs in two weeks and every day and every meal I was eating more than I had done for two years. After 5 days I wanted a nice bit of chocolate or a glass of milk like never before though but held off. Couldnt keep it up after the two weeks though due to my sweet tooth!

ok theres a start... doesn't help us much though phil lol Only two weeks huh?

I think 8lbs in two weeks is too fast but thats sort of a seperate issue I guess..

Anyone else tried it. Has it worked for anyone over a year?

I love chocolate.. I keep eating too many peanut M&Ms, though thats mostly all I eat it i eat them too often. hehe

8 lbs. in two weeks is probably 2-3 lbs. of fat, 1 lb of muscle, and at least 4 lbs. of water.

"Tim-200grams isn't that much. What was your lean body weight? Yes it does matter i think. You tell some fat guy to eat more than he needs to when trying to lose some weight. Of course it matters. You don't need to feed fat! (certainly not with fat, but thats just my opinion)."

Who's talking about feeding fat? We're talking protein, not calories. If you're eating too many calories that's one thing, but if you're getting an extra 20-30 grams of protein and not going over your calories, there won't be any harm done. Your body will just burn it off like fuel. (though it's obviously more complicated than that) If you tell somebody to nitpick they'll get burned out and say "screw it." I always recommend the most vague guidelines that will get the job done. Christ, you're argumentative. :)

Tell someone to nit pic-lol You are saying you go with a formula to figure it out by your body weight. I am saying people of the same body weight vary widely in lean body weight and fat. Someone with 40% fat doesn't need to eat the same as someone with 15% fat.

No nit picking when you are thaught a formula. Might as well be taught one that makes sense in the first place.

If you use this formla to figure out how much protein then you'd be using it to figure out how many calories I would imagine and I think its a faulty formual. No harder to figure out an accrate one from a faulty one is it? Well I guess its harder to know your lean weight from your over all weight but once you got that its easy.

Maybe you have a different one for figuring out calories? That would be two then. nope one decent one seems easier to me.

By the way whole grain doesn't always equal low glycemic, though it should be better.

Whats your sodium/potasium ratio in your grape nuts??

Just a thought as most cerials are high. Well most anything from a box etc.

The adverage American eats 20 times more salt than is good for health. Or do you believe lots of salt is good too?

I was eating a lot of chicken and fish so I thought this would have made up for any potential muscle wastage and I was also drinking five pints of water a day so would this not discount the water loss as well? Could it not just have been fat that was lost?

I don't know how someone can lose 4lbs of water. Please explain that Tim. Was he over highdrated?? I needed to drop 4lbs of water? I know daily it can fluctuate alot and water has alot to do with wait but if you lost 4lbs in a week you'd be hurting I think.

I've lost 10 lbs. of water from one workout before. Any fighter that has to make weight does the same. (or more...Ivan Salaverry cuts to my weight and he looks at least 25-30 lbs. heavier when we're standing next to each other) Changes in diet have a way of making you lose weight quickly and gain it back quickly; it's water. I don't feel like typing up a manifesto explaining anything else so do a fucking google search :)

"Tell someone to nit pic-lol You are saying you go with a formula to figure it out by your body weight."

Figure your CALORIES out by weight. that's how much it takes to sustain your weight. If you're 200 lbs. and 8% body fat or 200 lbs. and 20% body fat you're going to need roughly the same amount of calories to SUSTAIN your weight. The 20% bf would guy would need to eat less, ie the 500-1000/day calorie restriction, to lose weight.

"I am saying people of the same body weight vary widely in lean body weight and fat. Someone with 40% fat doesn't need to eat the same as someone with 15% fat."

Nobody...was...arguing...that people...vary...in lean body...weight...

congrats though. Post your address and I'll send a cookie.

"No nit picking when you are thaught a formula. Might as well be taught one that makes sense in the first place.

If you use this formla to figure out how much protein then you'd be using it to figure out how many calories I would imagine and I think its a faulty formual."

You read it backwards. If you're going to get smarmy, at least read it right.

"For weight loss, somebody that trains 3-5 times a week would need 15x their body weight (in lbs), a fighter will probably need 18x or up to 20x in order to maintain their bodyweight. minus 5 from this to lose weight, so a fighter would want to eat 15xbodyweight to lose weight. For good weight loss, you want to cut out anywhere from 500 calories to 1000 calories a day for a while. Give yourself one cheat day too, and REALLY cheat. We're talking cheesecake here. that way you wont' crave it the next week."

That's my recommendation (and many, many, many others who've tested it in the field and know way more than you or I) for calories. .08-1 gram of protein per lb. of body weight, provided you're not a huge fat ass and that it won't put your over calories, will work great for weight loss or muscle gain.

You think 250 lbs. of protein is too much for Lloyd Van Dams? Cause he's a fat ass.

"Maybe you have a different one for figuring out calories? That would be two then. nope one decent one seems easier to me.

"By the way whole grain doesn't always equal low glycemic, though it should be better."

BTW, some people with bad makeup, large adam's apples, high heels, flashy evening gowns singing Karoake at drag queen bars might actually be women.

"Whats your sodium/potasium ratio in your grape nuts??"

Ahem, nick picking?

I take multivitamins and drink at least a gallon of water a day. There's a point to draw the line in analyzing what you're eating and I dare to say that "sodium potassium" ratio is just about there.

"Just a thought as most cerials are high. Well most anything from a box etc."

Grape nuts flakes are pretty low. Can't remember the exact number, but they are one of the lowest, which is why it's one of my favorite things to eat.

"The adverage American eats 20 times more salt than is good for health. Or do you believe lots of salt is good too?"

What does that have to do with anything? LOL. No Mark, I think eating 20 times more salt than needed is good for you.

10lbs in a work out is alot.

The most I lost was 12.5lbs in 2.5 hours of sweating (last fight)..

Did you read what I said??

You can't tell me you kept if off for a month or two can you?? Daily going up and down is one thing but staying down for a month or two...come on.

OK sustaining weight. Some people will want to stay, some gain, and some lose.
Going by body weight and going by lean body weight makes a differance.

Cheat days make little sense to me. My understanding of eating right is teaching your body to work right. Throwing a wrench in every week doesn't make sense to me. But once a week is much better than everyday I guess.

Nit picking with sodium/potassium not if you want to eat healthy. Processed foods have about 20 times more sodium/potassium ratio than fresh foods. No surprise our bodies work best on the ratio that is found in fresh foods. Excess sodium has its effects. Nit picking??? Maybe in the Atkins diet it is.

Grape nuts are low now..if its nit picking why would you look to know? Low by comparison or a good ratio?? Big differance. 'Light' and 'Reduced Fat' doesn't mean its really light or low in fat. Only by comparrison.

What does it have to do with anything?? Well we are talking about healthy eating are we not? 20x is alot in my book.

Adverage American eats 54lbs of sugar a year too (though thats an older study...I would think more now). Is there no importance in this either?? Sugar turns into fat so is sugar ok on the Atkins diet?

Tim, you on the diet? How long?

Mark L. writes:

"10lbs in a work out is alot.

The most I lost was 12.5lbs in 2.5 hours of sweating (last fight).."

Did you read what I said??"

You can't tell me you kept if off for a month or two can you?? Daily going up and down is one thing but staying down for a month or two...come on."

No, i wouldn't try to tell you I kept it off. Where did you even get that from? I gained it right back. It's common for people to lose up to 10 lbs. within the first few weeks on a diet, then gain it right back even if they're on the same diet. This always happens with the atkins diet. It's water loss. It does work long term and is great for losing weight, though. You just hear about a lot of people that didn't like it quitting after two weeks and saying that they lose 10 lbs. right away, then quitting the diet and gaining it back.

"OK sustaining weight. Some people will want to stay, some gain, and some lose.
Going by body weight and going by lean body weight makes a differance.

Cheat days make little sense to me. My understanding of eating right is teaching your body to work right. Throwing a wrench in every week doesn't make sense to me. But once a week is much better than everyday I guess."

Nobody is perfect, and not taking that into account is the main reason why diets fail. If you eat healthy all week, then binge on junk food, you're gonna feel like crap afterwards. Then you're going to eat good for at least the next week. Kill two birds with one stone. If you don't want a cheat day, fine. It's next to impossible to gain back all the weight you've lost in a week in one day.

"Nit picking with sodium/potassium not if you want to eat healthy. Processed foods have about 20 times more sodium/potassium ratio than fresh foods"

Thanks for the nutrition lesson. I had *no* *idea* that processed foods weren't as healthy as natural foods.

"No surprise our bodies work best on the ratio that is found in fresh foods. Excess sodium has its effects."

Water can usually counteract the negative effects of sodium, unless you're eating fast food all day.\

"Nit picking??? Maybe in the Atkins diet it is."

I'm not even on the Atkins diet, and I've never been on it. I've had clients on it before, and i've known plenty of people who did it right and lost a lot of weight. I've read the books. Tom Glanville was a friggin' monster after doing it. Like I said, old bodybuilders like Steve Reeves used this method to cut up for competitions before it had a trademark on it.

"Grape nuts are low now..if its nit picking why would you look to know?"

Glycemic index isn't nitpicking. Arguing about EVERYTHING no matter how trivial a detail is.

"Low by comparison or a good ratio?? Big differance. 'Light' and 'Reduced Fat' doesn't mean its really light or low in fat. Only by comparrison."

In the case of grape nuts flakes, low would be in the 30-50 range. That's low, unless you want to eat brocolli all day. Again, thanks for nitpicking about that. I had no idea low as in "low" was different than "low" as in "low by comparison." IN fact, the left side of my brain was severely damaged in a fall and I can't think abstractly. I need all the help I can get.

"What does it have to do with anything?? Well we are talking about healthy eating are we not? 20x is alot in my book.

Adverage American eats 54lbs of sugar a year too (though thats an older study...I would think more now). Is there no importance in this either?? Sugar turns into fat so is sugar ok on the Atkins diet?"

Did you read that link on ketogenic diets? Cause I dont' feel like explaining how it works if you think that would work.

"Tim, you on the diet? How long?"

Nope. I'm a zone guy. Been doing that for 6-7 years.

10lbs water loss in the first few weeks with the Atkins diet!!!????

wow most of us don't drink enough water in the first place.

where did I get theat from??

Mark L "I don't know how someone can lose 4lbs of water. Please explain that Tim. Was he over highdrated?? I needed to drop 4lbs of water? I know daily it can fluctuate alot and water has alot to do with wait but if you lost 4lbs in a week you'd be hurting I think."

Tim- "I've lost 10 lbs. of water from one workout before. Any fighter that has to make weight does the same. (or more...Ivan Salaverry cuts to my weight and he looks at least 25-30 lbs. heavier when we're standing next to each other) Changes in diet have a way of making you lose weight quickly and gain it back quickly; it's water. I don't feel like typing up a manifesto explaining anything else so do a fucking google search :)"

"No, i wouldn't try to tell you I kept it off. Where did you even get that from? I gained it right back. It's common for people to lose up to 10 lbs. within the first few weeks on a diet, then gain it right back even if they're on the same diet. This always happens with the atkins diet. It's water loss. It does work long term and is great for losing weight, though. You just hear about a lot of people that didn't like it quitting after two weeks and saying that they lose 10 lbs. right away, then quitting the diet and gaining it back."

So two weeks you can keep off 10lbs in water when most of us don't even drink enough and aren't hydrated enough. I did some looking but nothing I found explained this.

I have never heard of peopl going on a diet and losing 10lbs in the first couple weeks. How do they function. I'm missing something here cause that makes no sense to me.




OK the grape nut thing-I didn't know you ment fat content...

just a note, they are high glycemic and I still bet the salt is high..but I haven't looked at a box yet.

Nah, the salt in grape nuts flakes is pretty low. Like I said, I drink two gallons of water a day usually, so I'm not too concerned about sodium. Other than a few things of junk during the weekend, there's really not a lot of other processed foods in my diet.

As for water weight loss in the first few weeks of the atkins:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22atkins+diet%22+%22water+weight%22+&btnG=Google+Search

It's hard to find a good explanation of why this happens (It's been years since I've read any good nutrition exercise sites or articles so I'm not the best one to ask...I'll try to contact Lyle Mcdonald on this), but as you can see, it is common. It's almost like increased water retention when people first start taking creatine: Most gain around 10 lbs. in the first few weeks but it's water weight that goes away when you stop taking it.

The 10 lbs. people lose is most likely depleted from muscle stores from what I can remember. It's not the "radiation system" water that you piss out all day.

it's quite simple.carboHYDRATE.every stored gram of carb holds i forget how many water molecules.so when storing carbs in muscle and liver,you are also storing water.

interesting..

personally big jumps scare me. Just like big boosts and fast effects and yo-yo effects.

but thats something to start to try to make sense of.

creatine. I did not have any jumps when I started taking it...I think that most often the right way will be gradual steps and building blocks. Big jumps scare me.

But I've getting somewhere in what you are trying to say..

Big jumps are never a good idea in dieting or in gaining weight. They're usually not the type of losses or gains that you want. Our bodies want to get rid of muscle first because it takes more energy to feed, which is why you'll notice that sprinters look like bodybuilders and marathon runners look like crack whores with love handles. People who use their muscles in an intense way and feed them accordingly are sending a clear message to their body: that they need their muscle, and that they have an ample supply of fuel for them. People who starve themselves or don't use their muscles are sending the opposite: keep the fat, get rid of this muscle. I think that's one of the reasons why weight lifting is so important for athletes: they are plenty of muscles that are not primarily used in most sports that would otherwise atrophy, leading to strength imbalances, then leading to injuries. If you tell your body that you need ALL of them, they'll stay strong. There are other ways to do this, but none as time efficient.

There have been studies with athletes in highly areobic sport. Muscle loss i one of them. I think this is the case regardless of diet.

Some very interesting points and an interesting way of looking at it.

Interesting you mention atrophy too (I'll drop you an e-mail on that one if you don't mind).

"it's quite simple.carboHYDRATE.every stored gram of carb holds i forget how many water molecules.so when storing carbs in muscle and liver,you are also storing water."

THANK YOU :)

Mark: go right ahead. timfever@comcast.net or timlink@u.washington.edu

Tim Link,

your last point was interesting!

making me think but I always bulk up stupidly if I even pick up a weight. Even have to be careful when doing too many press ups and stuff as I just seem to bulk up too much for my liking.

cheers

JP

Sounds odd to me..at least at those amounts.

I guess if you are going for the pump and burn you'll get lots of blood and water in the muscle. But theres not much point in doing that.

Just from 'dieting' though is weird...

Mark, you talking about the amounts of water in muscles? Remember what percentage of your body is made of water...what, like 50-65%? muscle is more, like in the 70's. That's a lot of water. It makes sense that when calories are being restricted, the body says "oh shit" and starts taking water away from the muscles.

And JP, lots of people wish they had your problem. What's funny is that when you'r ein high school, all any kid wants to do is get bigger and it's next to impossible. AFter 20, it's pretty easy. I struggled to get above 155 all through high school and never got there. When I was 19, I went from 155 to 190 in a few months. Ever since then any prolonged period of working out consistently adds a few lbs. on. Right before my back surgery I said "screw it" to caution, did squats like crazy, in fact did everything like crazy, and ate like a pig. (and of course took my weight in painkillers after I was done because it was hell) I put at least 4 lbs. of muscle on in a few months. (and at least 3 lbs. of fat too, but whatever, I knew I was gonna get fat after surgery anyway)

What's hilarious about most people who see a personal trainer is that htey all say "oh, I don't want to get TOO big." Like you're gonna wake up one day and look like Dorian Yates or Chyna.

Some of what you say makes sense but I am yet convinced..

Whats Atkins have to say about L-lysine and L-arginine and there effects on your hormones?? Does he claim that this only happens when eating grains at the same time? That wouldn't make sense?

L-lysine, high in meat, increases insuline production and reduces glucagon production by the pancreas. The change in ratio in insulin to glucagon signals the liver to make fat and cholesterol big time.

-Kritchevsky D. Dietary protein and experimental atherosclerosis. Ann NY Acad Sci, 1993;676:180-187

-Kurowska EM, Carroll KK. Hypercholesterolesterolemic responses in rabbits to selected groups of amino acids, J Nutr, 1994;124:364-370

red meat-high in arachidonic acid (precursor of pro-inflamatory Prostaglandin E2)-helps keep you on the edge of inflammation

or is this only if you have a slice of bread with it?

what does it keep inflammed?

joints

well mark to be truthful i don't know.but here are 2 things 2 consider.there is now a correlation between arthritis and wheat products.there are studies.and i mentioned before in our many rants on this subject that friends(older ones)have said that while on atkins their joints feel better,but as soon as they go off the diet they ache again.the one particular person is an ex st. trooper whom i work with now.i talked about him before,he was the one that had his hip replaced.

Can you put the studies up?

Wehey! Thread makes a century.

Excess protein-excess amino acids into non-toxic carbon and water plus highly toxic ammonia!! Body protects itself by turning ammonia into the less toxic urea, which the kidneys takes care of. But if you eat more than the kidneys can take care of you overload them and poison the blood.

Most docs tests won't show this. BUN will (blood urea nitrogen). Dehydration can cause BUN scores to be high too...

over 21mg/dl is a good indicator of poor health.

Does this only happen when you eat protien with crabs?? <-lol carbs!!

---------

i don't know the studies off hand.i will look for them.

i know my carbs and fat mixing makes you laugh,but really,name some naturally occuring foods that have alot of both?you won't find many.maybe nature did that for a reason.

fat gets the bad rap.it is the culprit of the S.A.D. diet,so they tell us. the diet consists of 3 macronutrients but fat and protein are found to be bad. when they are eaten alone as with the atkins diet,they do the opposite of what they are blamed for in the other diet. the sad diet is carbs,protein,and fat,and it causes diabetes,heart attacks,high cholesterol and high blood lipids.
atkins is 2 macronutrients,fat and protein,wouldn't you still see all the same disease if fat is the bad guy?no you see the opposite.this happens when you remove carbs,especially grains.why is that?

do a google search for gluten and ra.

I would imagine that is partly to do with everyone eating high glycemic carbs.

Spiking insuline has similar effects on the body as eating sugar, which readily turns into fat!

bad fats screw with good fat function. That said I think you can take in alot of fat.

I think protein is good too. As an athlete you need way more than someone who sits on there ass all day.

I would like to see any studies of people on an Atkins diet for 1 year or more that show them to be healthy.

Anyone can make sense of anything if presented correctly. And loosing 10 pounds a minuit has nothing to do with health.

I'd have to see the studies that say they do the opposite to believe it.

Remeber any study less than 6 months doesn't mean much, a year is better. Function and health or more than just loosing weight and dropping cholesterol though.

i'm sure your right about the high glycemic carbs but in the 60's and 70's when the fat is bad propaganda started,they didn't look at the glycemic or insulin index of carbs.it was just assumed that any carbs other than sugar were ok.so it must be the fat.
how many studies have you seen where one of the control groups ate so called bad fats mixed with good carbs?probably none.

look up ray audette.i don't know if there are any long running studies on this subject but he started eating like this over 15 yrs ago and cleared up a myriad of problems.

and mark,i know you need to see studies before you believe anything.after all,what would someone on ax know?

what would someone on ax know?? not sure what that is suppose to mean You guys have got me thinking about many things. I have also changed many things I thought to be true.

One thing that makes me cautious about Atkins is that once again, like all the magic diets, its one thing. Carbs! That'll change your life.

Everything I know about anything always points to balance (Don knows that :) and there are no easy fixes or magic solutions or one off ideas.

Everyone downs vit C-well i think vit C is awesome!! But I know that everything works in synergy. Vit C (on memory here so might be off) only does its magic when it interacts with B6, B12, folic acid, boron? etc etc

A balance, though not an even one, of all vits is only part of it. Minerals, fibers, fat, carbs, protien, aminos, antioxidants, water (such huge amounts of our body is water and we drink water that is so contaminated..hhmmm) etc etc

Working out. Sport specific is good but if you aren't building a balanced body it doesn't work in any way as well. Never mind you'll be stressing joints and increasing degeneration. Also working body in its full ranges etc helps keep all of it limber and healthy, ignoring certain areas causes them to become tight, loose range of motion.

Everything, from muscle and fascia to nutrition effects and works together with other things.

I don't know much about it all but everything I learn is there is no one answer, no one quick fix. I am extreamly cautious of big fads and people making big money from 'diets' too.

Also I know the body panics when loosing too much of anything too fast. Atkins does this!

I would like to see and under water fat test (scales weigh many things) or an infer red one (forget the name). To see what lean mass is doing.

muscle cells, depending which, take around 6 months to turn over. With proper nutrition you can build better cells (stronger cells too). In 1 year DNA cells change over.

Things take time and the basic priciples of building a better body seem to be ignored by this 'wonder' diet.

No, I don't know much about it but I would be surprised if there are many studies on a persons health (more than weight and colestorol) from eating Akins style for more than a year.

Every story I've heard, not on line, has been a failure too. Right now there is a guy at the gym that my training partner knows. He lost about 17lbs in I think as many weeks. I'll be interested to see how it works. I bet money it won't last though.

No I don't know lots and know less about the diet but it doesn't fit into what little I do know.

I would love to see long term studies. Also ones that showed their previous diet.

Most people east shit. I bet if you got them to start eating more vegies and fruit and all low glycemic and limited protein and fat it would be an improvement too.

Yes, long term studies please.

Dr Paul La Chance and Michelle Fisher at the Department of Food Science at Rutgers University analized many fad diets (including Atkins!!!). They found that all were seriously deficient in vitamins, minerals, and fiber.

-FisherMC, La Chance PA, Nutrition evaluation of published weight reducing diets. J Amer Diet Assoc 1985;85:450-454

"Combined with the food and caloric restrictions that these diets impose, such deficiencies are an invitation to illness." might loose weight though....?

"Excess protein-excess amino acids into non-toxic carbon and water plus highly toxic ammonia!! Body protects itself by turning ammonia into the less toxic urea, which the kidneys takes care of. But if you eat more than the kidneys can take care of you overload them and poison the blood."

All medical literature stating that excessive protein causes kidney problems are related to studies that included people with kidney problems to begin with. This is outlined and done to death in any low carb/lower carb dieting book, or any discussion between sports nutritionists.

"Dr Paul La Chance and Michelle Fisher at the Department of Food Science at Rutgers University analized many fad diets (including Atkins!!!). They found that all were seriously deficient in vitamins, minerals, and fiber."

These studies used the researchers own objective definition of each FAD diet. Any Atkins book and even cheesey articles on the website say, over and over, to supplement your diet with a multi-vitamin (if not more) and also extra fiber. (usually cylium husks, sp?) You have to realize that the majority of doctors who do any sort of research on "fad" diets have their minds made up before the study. And honestly, most fad diets are completely retarded, but Atkins and the Zone diets have proven to be healthy. (the only way tehy can find the zone diet deficient in vitamins and fiber is if they fed everybody twinkies for their carb sources) It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that a diet based on fatty meats, fats, and low carb vegetables is going to be devoid of a lot of vitamins and needs supplementation. (It is to lose weight, and it works for that purpose. Long term studies on the diet have also proven that if done correctly, it can have a lot of health benefits too, although I would never subject myself to it.) they would have taken that into account if they wanted to responsibly represent the Atkins diet, as this is *WHAT IS RECOMMENDED IN THE FUCKING BOOKS*. Nutrition is also one of the areas where most MD's have very little training in. Ask most what they recommend for diet and they'll probably repeat something off a cereal box like a parrot. I know you're zealously critical of Atkins but the guy knew his stuff, did a lot of research, and turned into a very marketable product that has actually helped people...definitely more so than crackpots like Jenny Craig or Weight Watchers.

reported over the AP Wire

-Dr. Robert Atkins, who died recently, weighed 258 pounds at the time of his death. Before his death, he suffered a heart attack, congestive heart failure and hypertension. Not only was he not following his own advice to maintain a good weight and low bodyfat, but his idea of not worrying about saturated fat intake certainly did his health no good.

I don't know what the AP Wire is..anyone?

reported over the AP Wire

-Dr. Robert Atkins, who died recently, weighed 258 pounds at the time of his death. Before his death, he suffered a heart attack, congestive heart failure and hypertension.

this should probably be seperated


Not only was he not following his own advice to maintain a good weight and low bodyfat, but his idea of not worrying about saturated fat intake certainly did his health no good.

I don't know what the AP Wire is..anyone?

Not sure But
Lead by Example is what i believe in Strongly

I agree Sandy!

mark,
you have to go and read more.that was released by a outfit that was connected to peta.
atkins weighed 190 some lbs.when he was admitted to the hospital.he fell and hit his head.if there was any heart attack,which is speculation,it was caused by the fall.

his weight went up to 258 after his organs shut down while on life support systems.it was all water weight.this is documented and a law suit is already being filed.a doctor leaked this info to this organization.and they used the weight that was gained due to his organs shutting down for their propaganda.

and it was documented that at the time of admittance he was under 200 lbs.

and even if he died of a heart attack.he was 72-73 years old.shit happens.he was also an avid tennis player.i hope i'm even around at that age let alone playing sports.

besides we already covered this.

and his earlier heart problems,although they could be lying,was due to a viral infection.

Faior Enough !!!!!!
But 200 pounds ?? Still massive !
How Tall was he though ?

http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/02/10/atkins.widow/

he was 195 lbs. 6 ft. tall.

read that article.the people who obtained the information from the hospital are not commenting.that tells me something right there.

AP is the associated press.