Sorry but this is B******S

taken from another Topic which was Off its topic so to speak i presnt you this !!!
:-((

sportmuaythai writes:

Off topic again, but since many farangs intend to fight in Thailand, I think you should be aware of Thai judging system which is geared for bettors. Round four is the most crucial scoring round. You can lose round 1-3, but if you win round 4 quite convincingly, and back pedal the rest of round 5, you should win the fight. Or if you lost all first four rounds and score a strong fifth round, you may win the fight. To those who eat at camp and lose muscles, I'd reccommend bringing protien supplements with you. Alternative is to buy eggs by dozens, and ask the camp cook to boil them for you, three or four at a time . I don't think the camp is trying to make profit from stingy diet. It's just that they don't understand that huge farangs need lots of protien to maintain their muscles.

Forget the Muscles and Big farangs LOl but please concentrate on this bit:-
WTF i think its B******S

sportmuaythai writes:

Off topic again, but since many farangs intend to fight in Thailand, I think you should be aware of Thai judging system which is geared for bettors. Round four is the most crucial scoring round. You can lose round 1-3, but if you win round 4 quite convincingly, and back pedal the rest of round 5, you should win the fight. Or if you lost all first four rounds and score a strong fifth round, you may win the fight

my response was..........

Sandy Holt writes:

NOT True
they Score From the Second Round as the First is 90%+ a Draw !

Round four is the most crucial scoring round. You can lose round 1-3, but if you win round 4 quite convincingly, and back pedal the rest of round 5, you should win the fight. Or if you lost all first four rounds and score a strong fifth round, you may win the fight

the replies? :-((((((((((((((((((
Doh !

Rob writes:

its true Sandy!!!! they score the first two rounds 10-10 99% of the time and as Sportmuaythai says this in favour of the gamblers makes it harder for one fighter to run away with the fight and keeps the gamblers happy so more people in the stadium!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sportmuaythai
infor@rushmore.co.th

2004-08-13 09:24:26 (Europe/London time)


sportmuaythai writes:

Ro, I don't know about keeping more people at the stadium. Up to Pudpartnoi and Put Lorlek era, the stadium would be packed on strong card nights. Now, beside thai gamblers, only tourists and farangs go to see fights and because of the judging prctice, boxers fight accordingly to score victory. Thais don't go to see muaythai because gamblers dominate the stadium, and fights aren't like they used to be. That's why some muaythai boxers claim of being cheated when they fight abroad. They didn't realize that judging is different in other countries.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rob
kaewsamritgym@yahoo.com

2004-08-13 22:20:16 (Europe/London time)


Rob writes:

and if the gamblers stop coming it becomes even more difficult so the fights and scoring are geared to keep them coming back! Its very true what you say about the people not understanding the scoring and often foriegn fighters will feel they have been ripped off because of some national pride issue but that is a long way from the truth as most promoters know that attracting foriegners to the stadiums is the way to go so will go out of their way to be fair.

My Response =and What you guys think??? I Know Judging has been Discussed before But errrrrr ! Im mad about this ! Grrrrrr :-(((((

Sandy Holt writes:

So Tony Myers Who has Extensivly Gone to and Fro from Thailand And Taught us all Updated and Proper Muay-Thai Judging over here ! was talking B****CKS ?
Dont think so !
If the Fight was Scored on One Round?
The Why dont they do 1 x 3 Mins
LOL
Freakin Rubbish !
or Better still Start and Finish in Round `4`

Plus If they Score ( used to do ) the First 2 a Draw and the `4` Th: a Scoreing Only Round ?
Whats 3 for?
and 5 ?
so they score `2` Rounds your saying?
3 and 4 ?
if so
then its
2 x 3 Min: Rounds
Or Start @ round 3 and Finish at 4
Again More B******S!
BUll-50

Thai Guys will be Up in a Hour so Stand By your Judge cards ! pen @ the Ready ! Lol :-p

be as mad as you want Sandy and please don't take offence at this but! you don't have a clue mate!!!

you can go on as many wmc courses as you like but what goes o in the stadiums is buisness orientated around the gambling try and actually come out here and get a better understanding of it mate before you accuse people of writing bollocks the pot calling the kettle black comes to mind

Rob i aint Arguemeing with Either ofyou ! Just the System in itself its From anyones Standpoint is Ludicrous, Unreasonable, and Seriously Flawed !
If its All Based on Gambling?
Then where isa the Sport? and Integrity for what Muay-Thai Stands for?
And Just to throw a Spanner in the Works?
I was there as you Know atthe Whole Aft: / Eve of the S-1 ( and have Been to Lumpinee and Racha and Other Stadiums, Thepasit, Chaweng Patong etc: etc: and I Wouldnt say scoring was as Corrupt and as far Fetched as you ay?
Unless there is such a Blase' approach to the Mundane day by day Fights that are on when the Stadiums are @ the Quietest ?
Ive been in Both Stadiums where there was almost as many Officials and Fighters as Spectators !
I first went to Thailand in 1984 20 years ago Rob, im Not Naieve by any Accounts ! But To What your saying about the Judging seams Ridiculous !

Please read this ! the Above was Rushed ! Soz!

Rob i aint Argueing with Either of you ! Just the System in itself is From anyones Standpoint, Ludicrous, Unreasonable, and Seriously Flawed !
If its All Based on Gambling?
Then where is the Sport? and Integrity for what Muay-Thai Stands for?
And Just to throw a Spanner in the Works? What Happens When The Likes of Big name Farangs Fighting ?
they Score 1 or 2 Rounds ? 4,5 ?? No way When Every Round is Fought by the European Way From the Bell to the Last Bell ! They Dont Give upnor Step back in the `5`th: as the Thais do !!
I was there as you Know at the Whole Aft: / Eve of the S-1, and have Been to Lumpinee and Racha and Other Stadiums, Thepasit, Chaweng Patong etc: etc: and I Wouldnt say scoring was as Corrupt and as far Fetched as you ay?
Unless there is such a Blase' approach to the Mundane day by day Fights that are on when the Stadiums are @ the Quietest ?
Ive been in Both Stadiums where there was almost as many Officials and Fighters as Spectators !
I first went to Thailand in 1984 20 years ago Rob, im Not Naieve by any Accounts ! But To What your saying about the Judging seams Ridiculous !

Doesn't WMC follow a different scoring system to that in the stadiums?

Sandy your spanner in the works doesn't mean anything! so you think they change it because a big name farang is fighting and they fight different in the west and fight to the final bell? what are you saying there mate it means nothing?

your right in saying your not arguing about it statements like 'freakin rubbish' and 'again more b******S clearly show that there is no argument you are right!

read what I wrote again and what sportmuaythai did about the fact that the stadiums are not as full anymore and Thais dont go to watch as much as its too buisness orientated! thats the reality mate and I am in no way saying the way they do it is right it gets debated all the time here and ive lost count of the number of Thais who tell me they have lost interst the more its gone buisness like if you think any different then sorry mate but you are Naeve

you mention you were at the S-1 well that night you came up to me at least 3 times and told me you thought the guy that lost had actually won!

Its not ludicrous and corrupt to the gamblers as they know who has won according to their criteria, like it or not thats how it is

Sandy, I'm a bit confused by what you've written and I know there's heaps of confusion about the scoring system here.

Rob seems to be saying that the first rnd is a draw 99% of the time and that the judging caters to the gamblers, which is necessary otherwise the stadiums would be empty. I don't think he's actually saying that only the 4th round scores.

Despite all the complaints about the scoring, I can't really think of any times when I've seen farang lose the decision when I thought they won. What about others? I've also seen fights overseas where the judges seem to score punches that are blocked.

someone confused by what Sandy has written? that must be a first for ax! ;)))

Rob Dont Remember saying that 3 Times ?
i think your On Happy Hour with Scott :-p
Its ( I thought ) the First Round Scored Even !
you said Round `4` And No mention of `3` Thats My Contest !
Saying 1,2, and 3 Not Relevent?
Give Over!!!!
then whay have them !
Scott im not agianst / for Results v Farang thats Not in Question too Much, but the 2nd and 3 Rounds ! Im Contesting re: Scoring i beleive they do !

"Or are we talking about Just the `2` main Stadiums???????

Spel:

Rob Dont Remember saying that 3 Times ?
Which Fights ??? Only one I remember was Ole's i think !
i think your On Happy Hour with Scott :-p
Its ( I thought ) the First Round Scored Even !
you said Round `4` And No mention of `3` Thats My Contest !
Saying 1,2, and 3 Not Relevent?
Give Over!!!!
then why have them !
Scott im not against / for Results v Farang thats Not in Question too Much, but the 2nd and 3rd Rounds ! Im Contesting re: Scoring i beleive they do !

"Or are we talking about Just the `2` main Stadiums???????

its round 1 and 2 that are scored even for the most part as I said it gets debated here constantly with gym bosses asking judges to score all 5 as last time their boy fought he won 1st two rounds and 3rd but lost the fight!
keep coming up with remarks about happy hours and freakin rubbish as its alll you have got!
you thought Ole won for a start and I distinctly remember you saying it about one of the Thai vs Thai fights too but whatever!

Disregarding the Jokes thats what the :-p signs mean Rob !
as you just posted below... ( thanks )

it gets debated here constantly with gym bosses asking judges to score all 5 as last time their boy fought he won 1st two rounds and 3rd but lost the fight!

This is what im saying. its B*****S Dont you agree?
how in the world can any sport win 3 out 5 "Anything" and Lose?
Where in the World else would that happen?

Im Discussing `Judging` and `Reasons` ! Not Argueing with you Rob ! Are you Listening to me or what?

im not sayin I agree with it Sandy as ive stated time and time again!
and its why the sport is in decline but that is how it is here like it or not!
try not to thinkof it so much as a sport when its in the stadiums here thats the whole point ive been making 'it is a buisness!' and a buisness that revolves around keeping its customers happy, the gamblers.

OK cheers !
And whats the Word about?
is there ever Muay-Thai Gov: ? Meetings about Change?
Ever?

sorry cant answer that one mate but as I said there is plenty of debate in the press about it the Klairung vs Rungrawee fight got a front page editorial on it which I will try and get translated and I remember when I was with Nungubon and he was in front and got dumped to the canvas 3 times and the odds shot round to the other boxers favour this was written about saying that boxers with the style and all round ability of Nungubon would die out and the sport was becoming glorified wrestling and the art of MuayThai would die out! I personally would like to see a lot of things change with the scoring but its way out of my hands.

Tony Myers is currently in Thailand training so will be unable to contribute to this thread in the near future. His name has been drawn into the fray, as a reference to support a view. This has been done in a very selective way, without giving the complete picture. The omission of the full explanation does not represent what Tony teaches and in many ways distorts his message.


Sandy I couldn’t completely comprehend what it is you were trying to say, as you seemed to attach sarcasm from one point to the other, confusing the real point you are trying to make. This is not meant as a slight as your point, although not clear, seems to have merit and is certainly worth discussion.

I must emphasise that although what I am about to say is based partly on discussions with Tony; the observations I make are in fact my own views and understanding of events.
I will neither answer on Tony’s behalf nor represent his view as this is best done by the man himself. However, I shall make him aware of the threads existence, so as he can respond at a later date.

Professional fights are scored are scored using what is called a "ten point 'must' system"

When discussing professional Muay Thai scoring with Tony, he uses the analogy that it is like a marathon race. (An analogy that was passed onto him, in Thailand). He explains that although one boxer may begin strongly and dominate early on in the fight, it's the finish that is important and a boxer behind in the early rounds can overtake later on. Professional fights are judged as a whole and rounds don't have equal emphasis, emphasis is given to a fighter finishing strongest over the last three rounds.
Round one is usually scored evenly; judges put a dot beside the score to make a note of who they thought edged the round. This is not a rigid criteria as if one fighter has very clearly over whelmed the other during the round by knockdown, eight count or the constant landing of good scoring techniques then he will be awarded the round.

Round two is also generally scored evenly, if it is estimated to be a close round, or if the boxer who was behind in round one wins by a small margin.
The last three rounds are the principal rounds in the fight as it is here where the rounds determine the fights result.
As I understand it, the fight is judged as a whole. If a fighter is given an eight count or is knocked down from a concussive blow they will automatically lose two points. If the knocked down fighter had overwhelmed his opponent up until the knockdown or subsequently goes on to dominate the round, he will then only have a point deducted. In fifty/fifty rounds or where the fight is going from one boxer to the next. Then the dots put beside the earlier scores in rounds one and two are taken into consideration, when determining the fights outcome.
Judges also often make notes during a fight and refer to them before scoring the fight.


Again I must emphasise that this is just my understanding and although there is more to be taken into account, which I don’t have the time to type, it is a basic representation of my grasp of this subject.
My inclination is to go with what Rob is saying, that Muay Thai in Thailand is a business and is geared towards the gambler. This is not a fact you can escape and may be a point of contention. But when it comes down to it, it is all about the money in professional fighting. This said and even with business being the main emphasis, the rules are still fairly clear. You just have to understand them.

well put Charlie! all I was trying to highlight is what goes on in the stadiums regarding the influence the gambling pays on the fights here! hoping to meet with Tony soon too and his knowledge is first class!

I would sadly have to agree with Rob on the scoring in Thai stadiums.

There used to be a joke among my friends in Thailand, ask Ryan who is gonna win the fight..... then bet on the other guy!!!!

I 99% of the time would get it wrong, due to my understanding on how Thai Boxing fights are scored in England. Or at least should be scored the world over.

We could ask, why is it that Tyson keeps getting the main event! But then just step back and ask yourself.. 'Who else is gonna make the money on the night?' and get the punters in, only a few other retired boxers.

Tony Myers is the best Referee that I have had the pleasure to meet, fight under and learn from. He is very dedicated. And that analogy 'marathon race' is one I have not heard before, but now from what I remeber and from what I see happen in the ring.. I can see how true it is.

Wow, Rob. Considering your job in muaythai industry in Thailand, you are really sticking your neck out to let the outside world know the truth. I sincerely wish you the best.

Sandy
Dean white explained this to me ages ago thats why i believe in him for knowledge etc...Rob is correct though as odd as it seems to you he is.
My view is i dont know enough about it really as i class myself as a coach and really try to avoid judging,When i was on holiday i was in a tv shop and was watching muay thai on tv this thai said and the winner is ,i thought red he said blue he was right.
This summed it up for me as thought well he is thai am not he got it right.
Getting annoyed about is pointless its like off i dont understand just enjoy it.

Its like off side i dont understand that either i was ment to put.

haha Good One Vinny me too ! I dont Like Footy ! and Cheers All of you ! and Esp: Rob who has made it very Clear ! I was on a rant as i thought what id learned and then the Gambling thing made me lose the Plot and .. "Soap Box" Sandy was back up again ! LoL

Vinny. The off side rule isn't that difficult to understand?

lol Col

Col to me it is am not the sharpest knife in the draw!!!lol.

Regardless if you think the way its judged is good or not thats pretty much how it is judged...my point is most people who complain about getting robbed in Thailand simply don't know the game they are playing.

This is why I always say that the scoring is about "effect"

If a fighter that goes all out in rounds 1 - 3 has had an effect of his opponent he will win as the opponent wont be able to answer in the last 2 and he will be able to coast to the end.

If the same fighter that goes all out in rounds 1 - 3 has not had an effect on his opponent and the opponent has been defending well (and scoring with that defence)then the opponent will be able to rally in the last two and finish strong!

If the top staement is true, then I should have won my fight out there, as the 4th was the only round I convincingly won!!! LOL
(lost the first 3, and the 5th was quite close)

Ok so Zebs Go to Thailand and Gamble :-p
and Lucky "4" You :-)))

Oh no!! Im turning into a nigt owl like McMad man, Its 2.30am and Im on ax!!!

Due to jet lag though, so have a good excuse :)

well said Dave...