Lumbini stadium implements new muaythai rules on grappling and kneeing
Written by Varut, editor: Wissawa
Tuesday, 20 May 2008

Lumbini boxing stadium has announced new rules for muaythai grappling and kneeing which have been in effect since May 9.

The new scoring scheme on kneeing is aimed to make the muaythai matches “more beautiful,” according to the technical committee which included Lieutenant General Pdermsak Mekkapatana, Radom Na Bangchang, and Colonel Narin Puangkaew. The new rules require the fighters to be immediately split if they engaged in particular types of clinching and side kneeing.

The fighters are allowed to grab the opponents above the shoulders while effectively kneeing the opponents. Such effective kneeing must have a target and enough power as well as not violating other rules.

Other types of grappling such as wrapping around the chest or midsection are not allowed and the fighters will be immediately split.

The grappling must be followed by kneeing within about three seconds or the referee will split the fighters. If the kneeing was not effective, the fighters would be split as well.

The new rules were already enforced on the matches on May 9 which had confused some spectators who thought the referees prematurely split the kneeing fighters. The Lumpini stadium committee said they were willing to answer inquiries from the people and would observe the long-term effects of the new rules on muaythai.

Chief of Lumbini stadium Major General Thera Kripanon said the enforcement of the new rules would face some troubles at first but eventually would help recreating muaythai as a more enticing sport for the spectators.



Muaysiam number1804

That appears to take some of the excellent throwing skills from some big names. Would that mean they can grab around the body and throw within 3 seconds? Or not at all?

I hope this doesn't become the standard...and wonder will this be applied across the other stadiums and eventually become the WMC standard internationally? ARGH!!

Wow never saw that comming.................k-1 muaythai??

Yep. They've just pretty much described K1-Max

As the UK system has taken a direction to following Thailands lead, does this mean that this is coming in to force for us too?

Speaking of the K1-Muay, I understand that over the past few months there have been a few stadium titles defended & challenged for in Japan.
There are getting more and more japanese in the stadium rankings....
Do you think there has been some "political bias" from Japanese investors?
It hasnt been a secret that gate revenues at the stadiums have been tailing off....
I know its a bit of a conspiracy theory, but in the light of this particular rule change thought it prevelent.

wow what happened to muay thai?

very similar to K1 now...

Has anyone who's been to Thailand recently seen this in effect? Can't see that sitting very well with the crowds at the stadiums or the fighters themselves.

They've obviously looked at the success of K-1 and though perhaps this would make Muay Thai more TV friendly for a worldwide audience???

It will be very interesting to see how this develops and if it is adopted more widely. Perhaps Rob can let us know what the actual impact of this has been be in terms of interpretation and actual application at Lumpinee. From the written description it doesn't sound quite the same as K1 but certainly quite different to the previous situation.

There has been an ongoing debate in Thailand on how clinching had begun to turn some fights into wrestling contests and consequently has reduced the use of some MuayThai skills. I know I interviewed the head of the the WMC sometime ago and he was interested in promoting beautiful MuayThai technique. It will be interesting how the gambling community take to the new rules, as far as I am aware they remain the primary stakeholders in financial terms.

Its an ok rule change for guys who dont know how to grapple and clinch....

I was sure i had read it on the WMC website that its primary function was to PRESERVE and demonstrate the ancient art of Muay-Thai and its traditions to keep it alive... maybe i misunderstood the mission statement.

The WMC represent the international face of MuayThai and don't run MuayThai in Thailand. However, one of the authors of the new rule, Radom Na Bangchang, is head referee for the WMC as well as being a main player in writing the Boxing Board of Sport rules.

I personally like clinching and see it as highly skilled and a valuable contribution to the sport. However, some people in Thailand have argued the use of some types clinching tactics have resulted in a deterioration in traditional MuayThai skills. Major rules changes in the past have resulted in a change in the skills being practised and applied in fights. Many traditionalists feel boxers today are less skilled than their predecessors. My personal opinion is they are equally if not more skilled, but that those skills are different skills. Generally although rule changes have changed the sport to a degree, they have not compromised the spirit or essence of MuayThai.

The level to which this rule impacts on the style of boxing used, will be determined by its interpretation and application by referees. If it proves successful in achieving its objective and also proves popular with gamblers in Thailand, it is likely to adopted more widely.

I would hate to lose any part of what there already is.

Rule changes up till now have been concerned with the safety of the boxer eg the step rule after catching a kick. Is the motive to preserve the beauty or to popularize? The gamblers will adapt and gamble im sure. And everyone else 'below' the generals in Bangkok will do as their betters tell them. They wont make a fuss.

If it does prove 'successful' at Lumpini, how long will it take to filter down to the rest of us? To keep our sport pure we look to the source, and following the scoring and rules from Thailand acts as a glue for us 'purists', especially with so many different international organizations and rule-sets abiding.

What happens if ever the source gets polluted - where would that leave us?

I hear you Tony. My first thought was "I hope the punters have some pull to switch them back". And, will this trickle down across Thailand and internationally?

just copied and pasted my reply to similar topic on K-1fans as some very over the top reactions on there, to which is basicallly misunderstandings of a very brief review on another site:

well that article is a very basic translation of the changes and some big overreactons on here.
I personally think it is great what they are trying to do and the Stadium boss needs support not derision as he will undoubtedly get flak here too. The rule changes have been bought in to take the decisions away from the gamblers and to take the sport back to it's origins, Mat, Thao, Khao, Sok or Punch, kick,Knee and elbow, not just kill the sport with power clinchers the way its been going for the last few years. There are debates and quotes about judging on webboards all the time about how the Thai way is the best etc... but the reality in Thailand for a long time has been that the judging comes down to the odds on the fight that the gamblers are putting out and they will favor the strong power clincher. Complaints all the time from people in the sport about how certain fighters will do nothing for 3 rounds then march out in the 4th and unload with a big barrage of knees and throw his opponent down once and win, even though his opponent has landed with great kicks and all round technique before hand. When I first started coming to the fights here 18 years ago the sport was booming, huge crowds and big purses for the fighters, but nowadays the crowds have dropped considerably and the purses for the fighters are half what they were, Lumpini are trying to make changes to make the fights more exciting agqin, they are not saying you cant clinch or trying to make it k-1 style or trying to make Masato champion. They are not saying you cant clinch, just saying the fights should be scored more on the Muaythai technique, not one fighter gets thrown down a couple of times and the odds go strongly for his opponent and he has lost even though he has looked the sharper technical fighter, but his opponent was just fitter and stronger. They are being positive for the sport. Knees still score if they are strong and with effect, you can still clinch, but must be working with hard knees not locking your arms around the waist and slapping in knees to the thighs. There have been a few articles about this and obviously it is a big talking point, a lot of the gamblers were not happy at first, but most people I have spoken to have been positive.

I for one wholehearted applaude the stadiums initiative, as it will hopefully help to take the sport back to the good old days and see more fighters in the style of Saenchai come through instead of fighters that just wait till round 4 to explode with a burst of knees. They are not actually drastically changing the rules as far as I see it, just trying to enfoce the judging in a more allround way and take the power away from the gamblers influencing fights

and the Japanese in the rankings tends to be at Ratchadamnern Rich mate, not Lumpini and so far Ratchadamnern seems to be staying with old way

Sure hope it doesnt get too much more watered down.

Sure hope it doesnt get too much more watered down.

it isnt getting watered down!!!!! It is a channge to bring back the art of Muaythai not to destroy it

Ah, thanks Rob.

So what you are saying is that as far as judging is concerned, there is going to be more emphasis put on the striking side of muay-thai, rather than the clinch/wrestling/throwing. There will be less of an incentive to make it a "clinch-war", as the referee will break it.

For the time I have been going to Thailand, you do see cycles of "favourable techniques", and with this rule change statement, I think Lumpinee are just trying to re-direct this with a "NON-favourable technique".

All the other rules and criteria are still the same, so its not being "watered down".....merely redirected within the same circle.

As the WPMF are a Lumpinee-based promotion, does this have immediate effect on their rules/judging, or are they just sampling it in the stadium at the moment?

Well this relates back to another thread about making Muay Thai more popular to the general fight fan. Taking away the long clinch and type of side knees and lower body grappling and throwing returns the sport back to a more open striking contest. I believe it’s a good move and one that should be followed and one that will in my opinion favour the western boxer as they in the past have always struggled with the heavy clinchers. Just my opinion.

That is actually very reassuring Rob. Thank you for the explanation and your opinion. I did feel it would probably be a counter to the overemphasis on boxers just locking on and throwing down in the clinch as there are always complaints about it. The complaint I always hear, particularly from older boxers and trainers, is there are less boxers with styles like Samart's, Veerapol's, or Namkabon's etc. because of the emphasis on lower skill strength techniques like locking the waist and throwing boxers in the clinch. I interviewed Radom Na Bang Chang a couple of years ago and it was his opinion that boxers should not score for just throwing someone down without also attempting to knee or kick on as they fall.

It will be interesting for me to see how it is applied by referees at Lumpinee. I personally tend to break the clinch quickly if boxers have circle grabbed and are not hitting with hard knees or are against the ropes and kneeing without power as it does get boring if left. Although it will be interesting to see how it is applied in Thailand, if introduced here I doubt it will have that much impact on scoring in the UK in the sense boxers don't generally apply those tactics (I can't think of a fight that has been been won in this way except perhaps Ocana in the POS final or Worarwoot against Franky H on Pain and Glory).

I have just spoken to a friend in Thailand (also a qualified referee) and they confirmed exactly what Rob said.

Their understanding is that boxers will be allowed to clinch as they do now as long as they are kneeing strongly but when they stop the referee will break them immediately rather than allowing them to keep holding on and then starting to knee again. Also as Rob said there will be less emphasis on throwing down as a bout changing score. This actually is very similar to the situation currently in the UK anyway. However, I am now going to do a private seminar in Thailand with a senior referee in July to make sure I fully understand just for my own personal development.

I was gutted when I heard this the other day, as I've spent a lot of time trying to learn and teach the subtle clinch and throwing techniques that have been popular in the modern game. Obviously it won't be a waste and if it does make the fight as a whole then great. I think it will encourage a lot more active clinching, because I feel a lot of fighters are more hesitant to throw hard knee's for the fear of getting thrown and sometimes resulted in a kind of stand-off.

So if you throw someone it won't be a big score, but I'm assuming if you do you'll still get some credit and I assume if you follow up and strike then it would still be a big score???

Also, will the clinch get slit instantly if the fighters are holding the back??? So you basically just need a quick defense from getting thrown and not worry about really countering it?

If this new ruling is exactly as Rob has written, and applied in the same spirit that it is intended,then its not such a bad move as the text, at first glance, seemed to imply...

Some further gains could be made by adjusting the scoring method.... In the West,we see a fighter win a round - any round, from 1-5, so we score it that way.

We see a Thai "win" a round and its scored a drawn round for round one and 2.... I can understand and argue the cause of both methodologies, but i can see no good coming from having these two rationales co-existing as they do.

The biggest fear i have is to train a fighter to fight a particular way against a particular fighter,only to have all three well meaning judges using widely differing sets of principles, with which they use to judge and score a fight by...

Was this off topic? sorry about that chaps.

Hi Gary, perhaps Rob may be able to clarify further. Until I go and see the application for myself and discuss it with referees in Thailand at length, I wouldn't wish to comment.

However, to get a feel for the rule change and how trainers have responded (which is new an perhaps needs time to take effect), I spoke to Pimu and he sort of confirmed what the referee said and what Rob has written. Pimu didn't seem to think it would require any major technical change in clinching at all, but seemed to suggest that boxers would get broken if not active and they if thy were constantly trying to hold without kneeing. Not sure if this will be the case or not. His words were.."you can still do everything only the referee will break when boxer stop kneeing". Currently (or rather previously in Lumpinee's case) getting thrown down in the last round can result in a boxer losing a bout he may otherwise have won...this appears to be something that the new rule changes but again this is only me speculating and I will have to wait until July to really make a informed opinion.

this is bad news for me as a fighter, as im short but strong, cliching around the waist is my main weapon when fighting taller opponents! all short fighters are going to be hindered by this and tall guys are going to have an even better advanage! side knees are my staple shot if this comes in il stop fighting as my strength as a clicher will be nutralised!

basically the original piece that was put up on the internet that everyone went up in arms about was a very short resume of a big editorial from muaysiam and there was another big editorial on the same story the previous week, The initiative from Lumpini is to try and make clear the way the fights are judged and clinch and knee is not being penalised, if the fighter clinches up top and lands with strong knees, that land clean on the target and the opponent cant defend and that dont break any rules are all good scoring technique. They are trying to make clear that throwing the opponent down, or throwing a big barrage of knees that dont reallly land clean anywhere will not be given special consideration and to try and bring the art back to the fights and make them more exciting, The original translation as I said was very brief and no where near clear enough to explain what the stadium is trying to do.

Gary O'Brien STBA writes:

I was gutted when I heard this the other day, as I've spent a lot of time trying to learn and teach the subtle clinch and throwing techniques that have been popular in the modern game

this hasnt been a waste as it is not so much the subtle technical stuff that will be outlawed, more the out and out pure power only limited technique stuff. The likes of Saenchai spinning his opponent of balace and then following through with a hard sharp knee that his opponent cant stop will thrive even more under this change

I wonder if muaymag would consider removing the posted piece as it obviously created a stir and was not entirely accurate? Thanks to Rob and TOny for relaying more clarifications and placating the crowd.

how long before before uk promoters start saying 'were doing lumpinee rules'
too many diffrent rules!!!

are we doing spinning backfist?
are we doing knees and elbows to the head?
are we wearing shin pads?
are we wearing elbow pads?
how many rounds?
how long are each round?
are we doing lumpinee rules or...?

i know most of these rules dont apply to a class. but its not as simple as that when, say iv a guy meant to be fighting b class but the only opponant he can get has been out of the ring for two years so wants shin pads on b class rules!

Its not B class if hes wearing shins its novice or is it....lol

I think rob has summed it up perfectly . The rule changers are to get the fights away from the very influential gamblers . Its is good for the sport.

but wat if he wants 5 x 2 rounds? Its neither! Take it or don't fight! It aint an ideal world!

Gary O'Brien, me and yury spoke 2 u after the show pos about dzmitry and about the final. all i can say is it was a mixed martial arts fight, all the french guy did was throw and he had no technique and he won.dzmitry was doing kness, spinning backfists and had a lot more technique.dzmitry would of won on these rules. if u so upset on the rules take up judo or mma

I think its a wonderful improvement and log overdue.

dan

went to a stadium birthday show in Songkhla the other day with some big names on the card aswell as a "show" by Sanchai and Khunpinit.

been awhile since I went to one and I can say that the Gamblers seemed to be judging the fights not the judges. Came down to almost every fight being given to whoever dumps or throughs down the fighter last. when in fact the fight wasnt that close at all. Close but not that close. This is not the same situation as a few years back. Seemed as if I had no clue, or the rues had changed from when I last went to watch some fights. these "new"rules are great and put the judges backin control of deciding the winner.

Well explained by Rob I might add.

daggers writes:

but wat if he wants 5 x 2 rounds? Its neither! Take it or don't fight! It aint an ideal world!

Daggers most of the novice/C Class are moving to 5 x 2 or 5 x 1 1/2 min rounds people are trying to do away with 3 round muay thai fights unless they are junior fights.

olddod this is neither the place or the thread to have a pop or to discuss a result in the past that didnt go your way, if its been discussed in private then why bring it back up? Lets be professional you know my number if you want to call me. I dont agree in starting any more trouble over decisions that didnt go your way in a public forum, it is not good for the sport and it will not change the outcome.

There has to be a voice of normality, and stop any sensationalizm.
Rob has already said that this is just freeing up boring clinch-matches and disposing of pure-power moves.
This is a small piece of the pie, as far as the full extent of the rules goes.

As Tony has already said, this generally wont affect 99.9% of the bouts.

There wont be a "NEW" set of "Lumpinee Rules" that will be separate.
This will only affect the power-kneer's/power-clinchers....and TBH there are very few of them outside of Thailand.

As far as I understand, the basic criteria for judging/scoring fights still stands as detailed in this article:
http://www.chokdeeyork.com/index.php?pid=2

There is just being less emphasis put on pushing/throwing someone over in the last round, to show a physical dominance and steal the fight.
This generally doesnt happen in the UK anyway.

I think it is to also start doing away with the "pecky" little knee's that fighters do, to the thigh.....it gives the impression they are working, but in reality they arent "effective" knee's, and so gives the referee scope to step in and open the action back up.

EFFECT. To score a technique is required to show effect. This initiative (as that is a better phrase than saying rule change) is to increase the scoring potential of the clinch. Its rare to see a clinch stagnate with inactivity as the referee is obliged to break the fighters. This intiative simply requires the referee to do so promptly. It also encourages a more purposeful knee delivery, as kneeing whilst holding the waist rarely shows effect (i appreciate there is an automatic assumption of effect with knees as with mid kicks but you get my point. I guess it further differentiates muay thai as a striking art from the more grapple based disciplines.

The problem here is not with the new ruling its with the interpretation of people who didnt know what they were doing in the first place! This will result in even more confusion.

Its amazing reading on here and on other forums the number of people who clearly don't understand the basis of scoring.

At the moment these changes only apply to Lumpini stadium anyway so nothing is different anywhere else.

Talking to people in Thailand nothing has changed in what consitutes a scoring technique or how the fights will be judged its more about what the referee will allow and therefore how the fighters are allowed to work. If a fighter is working in the clinch throwing solid knees (or even trying to but being defended) it will be allowed to carry on and will score well. Defending well can include throws too which will still score well.

If a fighter shows dominance by throwing and unbalancing the opponent this will be taken into consideration but the point of doing this needs to be to deliver an effective knee not just to slow the action down. It stops one fighter using the clinch to simply tie another up and stop them from scoring.

What is being scored is a fight - not the number of times an opponent touches a target area like in amateur boxing so if techniques have effect they will score. It says above that in one fight one fighter was throwing a bigger variety of technique but even if these were landing on target if they werent having an effect they didnt score. The other figher by pushing forward and throwing and unbalancing the opponent was scoring with knees that were having an effect because they were hitting an unbalanced opponent. If he had just been hugging him round the waist and throwing side knees or hugging and throwing for the sake of it it wouldnt have gone the same way.

olddog, varatz lost the final at pos simple as!!!!!! why you having a go at gary? on scoring criteria at the time of pos oceana won. no change has yet been made to english muay thai with relation to this new rule so thats it, no point complaining about it, he lost!!!!!

Hi Olddog, I did speak to you in the ring after the decision, after the fight and at the aftershow party, but David Mc is right, you should really post on the POS4 thread if you want to discuss it in public. My side of things is still the same until I get the footage, I didn't see the majority of the fight, but thought Ocana was not fouling and scoring from the limited parts I saw, but moreover, everyone I spoke to, thought it was a fair decision except your group. The majority of those thought Dzmitry was going to win easily though. As for the fact Dzmitry was throwing a large variety of technique, that doesn't really matter and is far down the list in terms of priority when judging, compared with kicking the body, straight knee's, unbalancing the opponent and ideally following up with another good score etc. I understand you were dissappointed, as was Dzmitiry, but he soon got over it and seemed to have had a good time all in when I spoke to him at the aftershow party.

This new change in the rules, was made after my event and is only in Lumpini, I guess they will experiment with it there and if it proves successful then there would probably be widespread use of the rules in Thailand and we'd follow suit. Tony suggested that under these rules, perhaps, it would have been a different result and Dzmitiry would have won, but like it or not, the type of throws Ocana was scoring with is a part of the modern sport and until this is changed throughout then there is no real argument. But if you want to discuss it, please post on the POS4 thread.


Thanks for the explanation Rob! Really glad they are trying to keep and encourage god technical clinch, as I feel its an important part of the sport IMO. This does sound like a positive move, I'm looking forward to seeing how it pans out when I get over in August.

Wainey, it wasn't England mate, but thanks for having my back! LOL. PS, well done at the weekend, heard you done well in a good fight!

sorry my bad, sorry to all if i offended, british muay thai :(
and cheers yeh it was a hard but enjoyable fight.

Varats would have won f it was kickboxing but it wasnt...he was tired and nearly everything he threw in the final lacked power and he was off balnce and pushed back!!! he lost clearly...he looked sharp against Howson and chey but in my opinion he shouldnt even have made the 2nd round cos i thought Chey beat him...

I think this rule change is a good idea, i like clinch a lot. But i like to watch clinch when people are striking in it, the wrestling style clinch gets very boring very quickly, hopefully this will mean that the fights go to the old paper siccors stone thing. Knee beats punch, punch beats kick, kick beats knee an elbows are just great all round. JMO

KICK BEATS PUNCH IF TO THE BODY LOL

I think its funny all this discussion about the changes of the rules in thailand when most people don't have a clue what the rules are in the UK due to the ever growing amount of associations, clubs, groups whatever you want to call them that have their own interpretations of judging, scoring etc

simple if its muay thai then its muay thai rules. otherwise the sport only going backwards, this ruling seems to just alter slighlty the way referees have to step in by the looks of it to break the clinch for poor, non effective action. im sure when tony comes back from thailand he will be up on the ruling and will share his new knowledge to enlighten the british muay thai community :)

jonnybgood, fair enough, but there is a growing number of people in the UK trying to emulate the way the sport is done in Thailand, we might be a bit off the mark at times, but I think on the whole are progressing well and a lot closer than the majority of countries doing Muay Thai.

I agree gary but all I'm saying is the mass of associations and differing rules and judging is where most of the confusion lies there needs to be one standard that everyone has to adhere to.

clinching is a part of the sport that some are just very good at... If you know how to clinch it can seriously wear down an opponent.. But I also dont enjoy when a fight is played out in the clinch for the majority of the time. Somewhere between K1 and allowing clinching to go on and on on would be good. I like the way the judges do it here in Calgary, Canada. Clinching goes longer than the K1 but the ref does step in after a while... Its the same with UFC. It sucks if it is just 2 guys laying in guard and not really fighting.......

I loved the clinching years ago. I used to watch lots of fights where clinching was the bulk of the action; brilliant. Then, when the big Thai v Holland shows became popular (fashionable/profitable?) it was always interesting to witness the boxing exchanges, sometimes the kicking, but never the clinching. The 'hug' the body tightly and lean on the ropes tactics because they couldn't compete in this department of mt ruined many a fight, and surprisingly, some Thais adopted a similar tactic, leaning on and throwing pissy knees to the side of the body.
If this initiative is attempting to bring back the true craft of the clinchwork that i used to watch many years ago, i'm all for it.

I agree Colin, I was watching some old fights recently and the clinching was brilliant