"King of San Da" professional San Shou pics

for any interested

"King of San Da" professional San Shou pics

for any interested

"King of San Da" professional San Shou pics

for any interested

"King of San Da" professional San Shou pics

for any interested

"King of San Da" professional San Shou pics

for any interested

Does that guy in the gold shorts have Redbull shorts on?

san shou=chinese muaythai?

Hi,

Pardon my ignorance but can you please tell me more about sanshou! It looks interesting!
like muay thai with grappling :)
what are its roots, rules etc

cheers

Fahad

The roots of Sanshou are muay thai,

Right now in China they have paid some of the past top
muay thai fighters to go teach in China. For example Den Mungsurin
Nuatronee,Konpatapy. Then when you see the students of these
muay thai champs fight they fight Sanshou.

Sanshou -is pritty much Muay Thai but without "Knees and elbows"
but all sort of throws are allowed.

uh, NO, roots of San Shou is not Muay Thai

Yeah, I've heard of a couple of Thai's teaching in China, but in San Shou you see a lot of stuff that doesn't even exist in Muay Thai, like the throws, side kicks, back kicks, etc.... A lot of the top programs in China in San Shou do not have a Thai coach, Beijing, Fuzhou, Shanghai, etc

Sanshou compare to muay thai is still a Ametuer sport
I've seen so many Muay thai matches against Sanshou and they
still have a lot to learn. Just a couple of years ago
Jongsanan from Faitex, beat one of the best sanshou fighters
from china. They had a China vs USA show in Hawaii
Sanshou guys versus the guys from Fairtex in "Sanshou Rules"
and the Fairtex guys came out victorious.

You could even talk to a real Chinese Sanshou fighter him self
and they would say muay thai has influenced them.

Why do you Thai guys always start crap. I suppose no one in the world threew a round kick before you guys invented it? Oh come on

I am a very real San Shou coach and a very real San Shou promoter. I can tell you that while SOME San Shou people may be influenced by Muay Thai, you are wrong to say that all are and that San Shou comes from Muay Thai. My teacher would argue very strongly with you. He is now in his 80's and can tell you the origins of San Shou and that they have no connection to Thailand

Other than the event in Hawaii, what other San Shou have you seen. Yeah, in that event the Fairtex guys won. In other events Muay Thai has lost. Get over it. Nothing wins all the time

If you really want to press the point, I could point out that in September a team from China was supposed to fight a team from Thailand. China agreed to elbows and knees, Thailand wouldn't agree to throws and now the event is off...

ok i know this is a sore POINT for quite a few ! but i will say and ask 2 things ! ?
1. its always a compliment for ANY martial-art to copy anything from another, a big example is kickboxing from muay-thai
2. quick question i dont know much about san-shou i beleive its good ! but if its kung-fu / chinese based ?? ( is that right ? ) why do they wear THAI-SHORTS ?? just curious ?? thankyou "respectfully" asked ?
sandy man holt u.k.m.t.a
www.thaiboxing.co.uk

why do Thai boxers wear western boxing gloves and fight in a western boxing ring? Because they wanted their sport to be more like international "farang" boxing.

San Shou has tried to be like other kickboxing styles so they wear shorts. If they wore parkas, would they become Eskimos?

San Shou strategy is 100% unlike Muay Thai strategy, not better, but different

Technique is different. When was the last time you saw a throw like the first pic in Muay Thai? Answer, never. Isn't part of what they do. Side kicks are not part of Muay Thai, they even claim they will not work. etc...

Sanshou looks pretty decent and as a martial art.

I dont think it's justifiable to start the muay thai is better than sanshou or vice versa debate since in my opinion, all martial arts offer benefits and are good in the hands of those who practice it properly!

You guys have my utmost respect since it takes guts for anyone to step into a ring or get on the mats or whatever regardless of style etc and training at a high level is tough no matter what martial art or sport for that matter you compete in.

I admit that I find Muay thai to be the best system I have tried but I haven't tried sanshou (yet) and therefore I can't say what's better but Thongsai, if people want to do Sanshou and it looks a bit like muay thai then you cant say that the moves were copied from muay thai. I'm sure people in the stoneage used to punch each other with clenced fists or kicked others in the name of gladiatorial combat or self defence but you can't say it was muay thai or muay thai's roots lie in that...

I'm not trying to be contraversial... I absolutely love Muay thai and i Love the martial arts in general but I think it's sad to bring it to a level where we get into my martial arts better than yours syndrome (very similar IMO to my dick's bigger than yours syndrome)

Well that's what I felt like saying

Anyway thanks for listening, hope I haven't offended anyone and If i have i'm sorry i didnt mean to :)

Great point Fahad! Style will only take you so far. After a certain point, fighting success will be more about the fighter, trainer, work-ethic, and heart. Roy Jones and OscarDLH could be in the top 10% of all kickboxers inthe world just based on their boxing.... but it doesn't mean that boxing is the superior style. Just that those guys are superior fighters.

I too hate the "style is paramount" argument. Thank God, Felix Trinidad didn't take up TKD instead of boxing. Could you imagine all those TKD stylists claiming that TKD is unbeatable? Ugh!

Actually, I don't think anyone is asserting that one style is better than the other. Somebody asked about sanshou's roots, somebody else gave a wrong answer, and then lkfmdc went off preaching about sanshou, and in the process came off as a little hostile towards the MT style.

I think Tongsai was also saying thats its newer. I mean it takes time to build right. Regardless of how good it might be.

Look at the growth of MuayThai over the years out side of Thailand. Its way different than 10 years ago even though MuayThai in Thailand hasn't canged quite as drastically.

Things take time. Regardless of how good they may be.

Now I don't know how long things have been going on in China for example. Is that where Jongsanas fighter was from. 100 straight wins or something? Got KO'd by a has been. No disrespect to Jongsanan, I think he is amazing and has been one of the best. He just couldn't get a fight in Bangkok right now I think.

No this does not prove anything though it is a small piece of a puzzle. :)

San Shou began in China quite a while ago among certain select groups and then became available to the general public about 20 years ago. But the biggest difference has been that it was organized as an amateur sport until 1999. Unlike Thailand, there were no full time camps with professionals training all day and fighting all the time. The guy in the Hawaii event had been training for about 2 years and had 20 fights vs. the Fairtex guys who had been training how long with how many fights? It isn't a better argument, both are good, which is why when Muay Thai people like to say it is just Muay Thai and that they are learning it from Thai's etc, it is silly

I am aware of ONE program in China that invited a Muay Thai fighter from Thailand to help train their fighters. Redundant to say, China is a pretty big place and so quite a lot of San Shou fighters are still not training with Thais and thus are not "students of Thais" as was claimed.

Even the shorts comment is funny (and not the first time I have heard it). Shorts are not a traditional piece of Thai clothing. They come from western boxing! Like the gloves and the rings, and the rounds

Cool. Thanks for the info.

Being new does make a differance.

Who was it that said 100 straight wins? was this a publisity hype thing? Why the contradicting stories? not saying anyone is right or wrong, just curious.

Not to sound racist here, but when the Chinese promote events you have to be very wary of everything they say. There is a long history here. It's been discussed here before.

Maybe the guy had 40 fights? Still a lot less than the Fairtex guy who I think has like 100?

Beware.."CHINEESE UNPORFESSIONAL PROMOTERS".......is that where this one is going......

Go to Mike Miles' site and look up an article about an event he was invitged too.... he has a good story there

Ask Jonas Nunez about the time he went to China

Go to sanshou.org and read the article about "San Shou vs. Boxing" that happened in Vegas.

Anyone here go to the event in NY labelled "team China vs. team USA"?

like the x files, the truth is out there...

who is mike miles, and what is his web site?

i couldn't find this-- "sanshou.org and read the article about "San Shou vs. Boxing" that happened in Vegas."

http://www.sanshou.org/docs/sanvbox.html

mike miles is pretty well known but I don't have the URL handy, anyone else remember it?

lkfmdc-100, not even close. :) Though he's not at the top any more by any stretch.

www.mikemiles.com

forgive me, I am actually home sick, head clogged up and apparently not working well, are you saying the Fairtex fighter has LESS than 100 fights? I don't know, don't follow them that closely. I thought he had more fights than the Chinese guy though...

Thais usually have a good deal of fights by the time they reach their 30's

Basically they had a Sanshou teem from China against some
Boxers from the U.S.A.

I "think" there was 7 fights and 2 of the fights the boxers won.
The rules were the Sanshou guys could kick, punch, and throw
while the boxers could only "punch". The boxer's they went against were amatuer or not well known. The Chinese line-up was a selection of their best.
My point is Sanshou is still fairly new to the martial art world.

Anyways, I'm sorry if I have offended anyone, that certainly
wasn't my intention. I stated what I have heard and seen with my
own eyes--although I will agree there is a lot I do not know about Sanshou.
However, even though Sanshou may have not originated completely
from Muay Thai, they did acquire a lot of knowledge and influence from
Muay Thai. There are many(if not all) Muay Thai masters who would say
the same thing. Really my point was not to put Sanshou down at all, but
to point out that it is still an amatuer ring sport, so not let it go to
their head so fast, because when they did have this fight with the boxers
they were being very cocky and disrespectful. You would never see a true
muay thai practitioner behave in that way.

I do feel very complimented that muay thai is good enough for them to want
to use some of our techniques-"not all". However, what frustrates me is that
they give muay thai no credit whatsoever for muay thai's influence.

not less than 100...

I think a lot, if not most or ALL, of the San Shou community would suggest that there are a lot of "not ture" Muay Thai people out there, using your definition of "true muay thai practitioner" I am NOT condoning the Chinese rude behavior, I am the one that brought the issue up! But we get a lot of very rude behavior from teh Thai community. One of my fighters defeated a Muay thai fighter in a Muay Thai match at Lou Neglia's event. The first knockdown was a round kick to the head. The guy got back up and we did what the Thai's sometimes call a "cut" or "submarine kick". ie faked a leg kick then kicked under the raised leg and knocked out the supporting leg. Guy went up in the air, hit the canvas and didn't get up. It was called a KO. Backstage their coach cursed us out and said it wasn't a real win. rude is rude and wrong no matter who does it...

Sounds like a western thing for sure.

Well, as you mention it, the nicest guy I have ever met in relation to the "kickboxing" world seems to have been former Thai champion Coban. He just seemed like such a nice guy. It radiated off him, kind of hard to explain. But since meeting him, sadly I met some so called "students" of his who left something to be desired. Maybe westerners are barbarians :)

I bet you money Coban wasn't their first trainer.

All the real Thai fighters have this niceness to them. At least a huge percentage.

Over here you get the western attitude mixed with the wwf bull shit. But the Thai fighters from Thailand are extreamly nice.

i read somewhere that san shou is also known as chinese boxing.the roots go back far.(influenced by kung-fu)i dont remember boxing being part of kung-fu,or kung-fu useing the muaythai style shin kick roundhouse,not the snappy kind.my point is,even stevey wonder can see that san shou has deep muaythai roots.i have nothing againt styles that borrow this and that,but everything i've read about san shou try to make it as though san shou is some ancient chinese secret.by the way they already have a sport called shoot-boxing(kickboxing with throws) and draka.so whats so new about san shou?im not trying to be rude.even though i like cung le as a fighter, and its nice to see a fellow vietnamese get notice like him,but he's way over rated.that fight with jason yee was a JOKE.

Well, let's just say you are misinformed

The "Draka" organization over here in the US all started off as guys who were doing San Shou. They just came over here and and made up a Russian name and "poof" you had Draka. It is San Shou with a Russian name. San Shou existed before it because it IS San Shou. All those "Draka" titles they were talking about on the PPV were BS, like saying Ramozanof was "three time Draka world champion", Ramazonof won the San Shou world championships three times.

Shootboxing dates to 1987, there was san shou competition in the 1960's that's twenty years before...

There are plenty of Shin kicks in Chinese martial arts. Just becuase you haven't seen them doesn't mean they don't exist

So, again, let's just say you are misinformed

Well, let's just say you are misinformed

The "Draka" organization over here in the US all started off as guys who were doing San Shou. They just came over here and and made up a Russian name and "poof" you had Draka. It is San Shou with a Russian name. San Shou existed before it because it IS San Shou. All those "Draka" titles they were talking about on the PPV were BS, like saying Ramozanof was "three time Draka world champion", Ramazonof won the San Shou world championships three times.

Shootboxing dates to 1987, there was san shou competition in the 1960's that's twenty years before...

There are plenty of Shin kicks in Chinese martial arts. Just becuase you haven't seen them doesn't mean they don't exist

So, again, let's just say you are misinformed

dear lkfmdc
just to say dont take so much offence by my post further up ! a lot of us are ( especially me and the u.k ) dont see if any San-shou in u.k ? i have never seen a fight ! but one thing you are TOTALLY wrong about is the point ref: side kicks ?? they arein muay-thai as i went first time to thailand in 1984 ! (17 years ago) and brought back for my thai master / arjarn a very old manuscript thai training manual totally in thai language of course ! and with some "unbeleivable" muay-thai `tradditional` techniques in ! all with hand drawn pictures it was that old ! i had the pleasure to look through it on my 18 hour flight home.It had side kicks ( to which my thai-master was teaching me from when i first started in "1977" it had spinning back and hook kicks in !!!! and throws ! and a very unusual flying / jumping headbutt in ! strange but true. Please dont try to tell me who invented side kicks and the suchlike. Plus we did a BIG promotion in the u.k. england way back in 1987 and in my home town too of BOLTON ( near manchester ) due to limited amount of muay-thai practioners / fighters ? we did a unique thing for that period and very much ahead of its time ! a fight night totally dedicated to `all` martial-arts full contact styles etc: it was simply called by the u.k. biggest and first muay-thai association B.T.B.C. ( British thai-boxing council, and they are still going too ) "ALL styles THAI-BOXING" AND GUESS WHAT WAS ALLOWED ???? yep throws ! as we had the same as the kung fu and karate problems that thailand first faced when they opened their fighting to all the world etc: we had a lot of "jui-jitsu", wu-shu ( kung-fu)and karate and other styles `saying` yep but we cant THROW ? locks etc: so guess what ? we let em ! and guess what? they nearly all lost !mmm so "whose2 copying who please dont tell me what you think you know too ! as we do. And ref; training in `parkas` whats that got to do with anything? they dont fight ! compete and yes we do throw and do side kicks i do too and teach them ! yours sandy holt u.k.m.t.a
www.thaiboxing.co.uk

your obviously right Sandy, EVERYTHING in the world comes from Thailand. The Chinese have no martial arts of their own, they stole everything from Thailand. Every kick, punch, throw and even BEER comes from Thailand. And Muay Thai fighers ALWAYS win because simply because they do Muay Thai they are invincible. And if they lose, they didn't really lose. They actually won. And maybe YOU invented San Shou in 1987 because, heck, you say so. The first San Shou competition was an inter military competition held in China in 1932... Clearly your 1987 event pre dates that

And Thai boxers invented boxing trunks, boxing gloves, boxing rings, 3 minute rounds, mouth guards, groin cups, hand wraps and cup of soup...

By the way, your writing style is STILL HARD TO READ so if you want me to respond in the future learn to use some form of standard written English

Here's a Muay Thai trained fighter NOT losing to a San Shou fighter, it's a clever tactic from the secret ancient Thai text... Oh, and please don't take offense at any of this :)

I think the origins of MuayThai stem from China.

Today though everything that is popping up that resembles MuayThai.

I don't know where San Shou came from. I bet its roots are in Gung Fu and Chinese history but a modern twist of what works seems to be there. Maybe it was always there, I can't really say.

Off topic a little but its sorta related.

One of the Thai trainers was telling me that Karate use to be very good. But it was banned and had to be practiced in forms etc and not as a fighting style. I don't know how true this is but its very interesting.

If true however did they forget to tell those they wher teaching that they are doing forms because they have to? Also why do they do them today?

It'd be cool to see what all countries fighting styles where like 50 years ago, or 100 years ago etc.

Well, despite my sarcasm, I have a lot of respect for Muay Thai the art, just not for Muay Thai the propoganda;

The criticisms leveled at San Shou here could just as easily be applied to Muay thai itself, let's see how funny it would be

Muay Thai is supposed to be a Thai martial art? Based upon an ancient Thai tradition. Did they wear boxing trunks and boxing gloves and fight in a ring in ancient Thai martial arts?

Clearly, the roots of Muay Thai are in western boxing!!!

You claim that Thai has techniques that western boxing does not? Well, I've seen very old boxing books (and they do actually exist) with clinching, throwing and even kicking! Clearly, Muay Thai stole these techniques from old stule boxing.

They shouldn't be afraid to admit it! They should just admit that Muay Thai is heavily influenced by western boxing.

In fact, back in Merry old England they used to have boxing matches and they allowed choking, elbowing, and throwing. And do you know what? The English boxers always won!

Maybe you have to know something about the history of boxing to understand this and find it as amusing as I do, but there it is, the exact same argument that was applied to san Shou applied to Muay Thai

hey mr dross, i aint having a `dig` you are too defensive ! i never said i invented anything you started saying silly things like parkas and eskimos ! take a leaf out of someone elses -( se above mark-l for eg: )- book and its not about my dads bigger than your dad ! mature up ! and just stop saying what is ? what isnt ? im just sharing with you some of the history ! i aint thai ! im English and proud ! you ? and dont state silly un-obvious points ! p.s. if you want to be "silly" i will send you the video from 1987 thats when it started over here thats all i was saying !it shows the throws and stuff ! ( oh and results in colour ! and ref: 1932 ? hey whos argueing with dates ? and was you there then ? :) :P sandy man holt u.k.m.t.a
www.thaiboxing.co.uk

I think the origins of MuayThai stem from China.

Today though everything that is popping up that resembles MuayThai.

I don't know where San Shou came from. I bet its roots are in Gung Fu and Chinese history but a modern twist of what works seems to be there. Maybe it was always there, I can't really say.

Off topic a little but its sorta related.

One of the Thai trainers was telling me that Karate use to be very good. But it was banned and had to be practiced in forms etc and not as a fighting style. I don't know how true this is but its very interesting.

If true however did they forget to tell those they wher teaching that they are doing forms because they have to? Also why do they do them today?

It'd be cool to see what all countries fighting styles where like 50 years ago, or 100 years ago etc.

third and final try (damn server sucks);

Sandy,
If Muay thai is a Thai art, why do they wear western boxing trunks, western boxing gloves and fight in a western boxing ring?

The roots of Muay Thai are in western boxing!

Maybe you don't get it

At least try and post in something resembling the Queen's English

all of you miss the point so much. it isn't even funny.
the first thing that makes no sense is the origin thing. obviously, most of the asian fighting styles have kicks.most have kicks that are basically the same.e.g. karate has,front kicks,sidekicks,round kicks, spinning kicks, so does tkd,tsd,certain forms of gungfu,muaythai, etc.i feel and most others feel that the thai style is the most effective.this in it's self leads me to believe that the thai's was not the first to use these kicks but changed the kicks and made them more useful. why do i say this? think about it. if the thais developed their kick first, why would anyone change it? we are seeing groves of ppl changing towards this style. so if it were the first style of kick i don't think the other countries would change it to something less effective. make sense?
the other things you miss are that these sports allow punching and kicking.if these ppl feel that muaythai kicks are better why shouldn't they use them? if they feel western boxing has better hand strikes why shouldn't they use them?
you guys see the thai trunks and thai round kick and say it's muaythai, but never mention a thing about a boxing ripoff.whether you like it or not muaythai is part of a boxing ripoff.you guys blow it off, and basically don't care but face the facts it is. you guys bitch about this and your sport has done the same thing. muaythai makes no mention or reference to boxing. but sense it has it's form of hands strikes, thats your defense. well sanshou(and by the way, i hate sanshaou)has kicks.
sandy's arguing about side kicks, you know what, of course there are side kicks but how often are they actually used?this guy is trying to show there is more than just the thai influence and it's well we have that and we have that too.
and heres another pisser. the bigger it gets the more we forgets. at some point it will just be a kick, not a thai kick but a kick. and know one will care.

Gee guys, this is a pretty pathetic thing to argue over, don't you agree??

Like I said I think MuayThai comes from the Chinese originally.

Yes MuayThai adopted rounds/ring etc. It was illeagal for awhile before that due to too many deaths. I don't think anyone has denied this.

Boxing. The more I'm learning about MuayThai from Thailand. Training in Thailand and training with Thais here am am learning about MuayThais style of punching.

I don't know how many Thais use boxing hand techniques but I am understanding and learning more about MuayThais hand techniques. Again I'm not saying boxing isn't used by some Thais, I really don't know what percentage.

I think the biggest influence boxing has had on MuayThai is reminding them how powerful hands can be. Its still not the strongest weapon but its been revived since a select few fighters from the outside KO'd some Thais.

I think boxing has its influences. Ring/rounds/gloves etc Deffinatly what is called MuayThai around the world uses boxing and I think some Thais in Thailand use boxing. Certainly not all of them.

i'm not even talking about technique here. which i think there is a difference between the 2, but i think it's used more than you think.
i said this before and i'll say it again, i can't help but think that if the thais went to all the trouble of making their sport into a ring sport, and used boxing as it's template, i'm sure they looked at more than just it's shorts,gloves,and ring.
but i don't even care about that.
i don't here anybody denying outright that muaythai was influenced by western boxing,especially since bunjerd not around, but why aren't you guys complaining about gloves being used, or punching.punching like westerners isn't a chinese concept.why no complaint there?what if someone uses a throw that is from other art or sport?are you going to complain that it wasn't a chinese influenced throw.
all this crap about wearing thai shorts by other sports, why are the thais wearing shorts?

(Feel free to correct me David Ross) But I think David was being sarcastic. I think his point is "just because sanshou fighters wear mt trunks and share one common technique (thai roundkick) does NOT mean that sanshou came from mt".... and to show how silly that argument is he applied the same logic to mt and boxing. Did I get that right?

YEAH, someone got it... yeah, sarcasm

Isn't it pretty stupid to look at some of the above pictures, then say ... "oh, they are wearing shorts, so it must be Muay Thai"!

I think boxing strongly infulences 'kickboxing' and I think it has to what ever degree in Thai Boxing.

This is a 'kickboxing' message board. There aren't as many boxers to coment on that.

Until i see better, and ive seen alot of different styles top fighters trying to beat washed up old Thai fighters,

MUAT THAI IS #1

OOPS

Muay Thai

One style may not be the best but thats also what I've seen. I just need to see more I guess.

yes, I do agree that boxing has influenced muay thai. I never denied that and
I'm a thai. Western Boxing in Thailand is a big sport most of the 125 pound
catorgory and lower all most all ran by a Thai. That's how much
western boxing has influenced us. "Thailand loves boxing" that's why
we are succesful we don't deny anything. "boxing and muay thai go together"

I've been to so many kung fu schools never once I ever seen kung fu
fighters in boxing shorts and boxing gloves.

ikfmdc- I love that picture of that thaiboxer on the canvas by
that american Sanshou fighter. My muay thai - brothers mark this
done one loss in a ametuer Sanshou tounament.

there are more thais in the lighterweights of boxing than there is say welterweight or up but they don't dominate it. when ricardo lopez is beaten or steps down maybe but the lighterweights are ruled by latinos.

and another thing. go back a hundred years, and you wouldn't have seen any thais in boxing trunks or gloves either.they made a transistion and now sanshou is.why not use an idea that has been successful?

Funny how people can't get over the shorts thing. Thai boxers didn't wear shorts either until about 80 years ago. So, 80 years ago was everyone saying Muay Thai is just western boxing?

The picture is my student winning in a MUAY THAI match, we weren't even allowed to use our throws. It was contested under Muay Thai rules...

excuse me mr dross, when you are an English master i will except your critism of my english ! i just type quickly and do "not" check my spelling so often, and nor do a spellcheck.I didnt realise you was `marking` my papers too "sir" sorry ! teacher haha :) :P What this has to do with why thais wear thai-shorts ( not boxing shorts, you couldnt knee nor kick in western boxing shorts )i dont know ? i have not slandered you or san-shou so watch your english too !i was merely asking why is it a lot of styles simply copy the muay-thai system with one thing or another ? then "totally" try as your doing to "absolve" yourselves ! ? you are dragging people into "your" own arguement. If you want to keep being silly ! i use that word as its a child like word ! then why dont san-shou wear kung-fu pants ? and kung-fu slippers ? ( chinese uniform ) as opposed to thai ? whatever ? shorts ? sandy holt a thai-boxer, not and english master ! u.k.m.t.a
www.thaiboxing.co.uk

Sandy,

1. Your writing style, not just your spelling, is HORRIBLE. You don't want to accept that, but it remains true.

2. Shorts are NOT a traditional piece of Thai clothing. They are NOT Thai shorts, they are boxing trunks. Why do Thai boxers wear them? They are not a traditional piece of Thai clothing and traditional Thai martial arts do not use them

The gloves they wear are WESTERN BOXING GLOVES. Why do they wear them? they are not traditional and traditional Thai martial arts did not use them

They fight in a WESTERN BOXING RING. Why?

Why don't Thai boxers fight in traditional Thai clothing? In traditional Thai slippers?

Muay Thai has stolen everything clearly from western boxing
Muay Thai's roots are in western boxing

Amateur San Shou uses boxing shorts and tank tops, like WESTERN AMATEUR boxing, if they copied anything, they copied boxing, NOT Muay Thai.

Your accusation, that San Shou "copied Thai" because they wear shorts is simplistic and silly. If you can't see that after all this, there's no hope I'm afraid explaining it to you

Oh, and by the way, as a former school teacher, I CAN correct your English, though perhaps it is a lost cause

love and bullets
LKFMDC

I don't think many Thais in any walk of life wear what they use to 80 years ago.

I don't care that San Shou fighters wear Thai shorts. It is interesting.

Mark L, your posts so far have been intelligent and insightful and it appears to me you understand what is being said here. Sandy may have a reading comprehension problem because his entire argument can still be summed up as "because they wear shorts, it is Muay Thai". Plus, I hate his writing style :)

i for the most part do not read sandys post'. they are hard to read, but let's keep spelling out of this.
the part of sandys post that draws my attention is when he asks why is it so many styles copy muaythai? for the same reason muaythai copied things.maybe in the 30's when the thais started using the ring, etc.boxers were saying i wonder why they're copying us?however sandy was introduced to muaythai probably 40-50 yrs after it's adoption of western ideas so he accepted it for what it is. however sanshou hasn't been an organized sport(neither has kickboxing)quite as long as boxing or mauythai. so it hasn't been accepted yet.so if you're going to ask why do they do it, you should also ask why did we do it.whats the saying about glass houses?

Kirk I totally agree with you, Ricardo Lopez woops thai
ass like it's nothing. Until Ricardo Lopez retires then there would
be a Thai champ in his devision.

Right now the Thai's have Veeraphol Nakonlunge- which has
taken over the 118 pound weight devision owning the WBC belt.

-130 lbs WBC Rank# 1 Sirimon (thai)
-112 lbs WBC champion Pongsalek (thai)
-105 lbs WBA champion Chana (Thai)

Little known fact, Muay Thai was created during the classic period of Mayan culture (MuAY thAi). It is believed around this same time the cultures of Atlantis, Maya and Egypt had machines that could fly using quartz crystal technology all unknown to modern man. The pyramids of these three cultures acted as landing strips. Atlantis sunk into the sea around the same time the Mayan culture disappeared. Anyways, to make a long story short, to secure the future of this and other "fighting" arts, representatives from these three cultures formed a base deep in the Himalayas and created what we now call "Shaolin" temples. There, Muay Thai flourished for hundreds of years unbeknownst to the empires surrounding this mighty mountain range. Occasionally techniques would leak out and influence "other" martial arts, yet as evidenced today, they never got it quite right (i.e. TKD's half assed kicks). Sometimes this was calculated, other times the drunken sherpas who leaked the technique weren't really quite sure what they were doing (drunken master anyone ?). Eventually, the Mogul empire took control of the area, and oh....lets say 400 years ago (give or take a buck with change) they had it out with the Siamese. Now, the descendants of the representatives from the previously named extinct cultures saw this as the perfect opportunity to change the course of history. Why ? I don't really remember that part, but they called upon the king of Siam to their mountain temple and taught him the secrets of their "proto-Atlantean, mesoamerican, shaolin fighting system". The king went on to teach his countrymen and as evidenced by the arts popularity today, it worked to great effect. It's all true I've got it here in a collection of Time Life books.

I hope that cleared everything up.

You guys starting a quarrel over nothing again.
San Shou has not proved itself against MT yet, and I doubt it will,at least in the near future.
You have to admit that if SS wants to become a ligit and complete MA it has to look up on Muay thai like on a big brother. They have lots to learn from MT /and it is not only the round kick/unless they do not want to separe from others and develop on their own, which will create an unique fighting system, but might become useless against other MA.
As farest the throws go I have witnessed some pretty wild throws even in MT especially in Thailand local fights.
We have gone through this already and this is just a waste of time.
For me MT is at the top as farest the effectivness goes right now/stand up MA/.
Not to bash San Shou ,but I think it lacks the history, base and popularity MT has right now and it will take lots of hard work to take it up from were it is now.
However I have a San Shou fighter training with us right now, but what confuses me is the rule about not being allowed to punch or kick twice with a same technique in a row. What´s the deal?

thongsai,
the point i was trying to make is that the majority of the contenders in these divisions are latino. bones adams was champ at 122 but i can't say whites dominate that division.
earlier this year,late last year, there were 3 or 4(4 if you include the wbo) european world champions. 2 from france i believe.this is unheard of, however it was at s.mid. and thats a very weak division.

dynamo,
if you're going to use the effectiveness as a martial arts defense than you have to include all martial arts and then the effectiveness of mt goes down.
these sports only have to worry about whats effective within their sports.that argument has no merit. no boxer would ever care how effective mt is. all he cares about are his boxing skills in boxing.if you are worried about effectiveness in a world setting than mt is not the way to go.grappling has dominated since the dawn of time, and still does.
really, if you think about it nhb/mma guys are the best strikers because they have figured out how to use striking in grappling situations as well as in striking situations.

I am talking about stand up striking arts and among them I still think MT is the no. 1.
You are right about grappling , but I am trying to compare stand up martial arts./I think I mentioned that in my post/.

Sandy's on crack

Isnt that a girls name? And give me one technique that wears what they wore 1000nds of years ago?

I just read the San Shou vs. Boxing page. One interesting note, one of the Boxers, Golden Johnson, was world rated at one time. I think he fought for a lightweight title, either against Stevie Johnston or Mosley(when he was a 135 lbr.)

dynamo,
you're missing the point.
you're looking at it from a martial arts stand point but applying it to a sport.
how effective is knees and elbows in full contact. not at all. so in sport that doesn't matter. however you speak about effectiveness from what i gather is a self defense point of view.muaythai would probably be more effective that the other ring sports but thats a mute point.so if you're talking about sport it doesn't matter. comparing sprinting to long distance. if you're talking about self defense, so what if it's more effective than A if it's less effective than B.it's like looking down your nose at some one with a knife when you have a baseball bat but the guy behind you has a gun.

2liveKru-interesting. I wouldn't be surprised.

Thanks for the info.

sawtanang ! i dont do drugs, nor smoke nor drink ! so a crack even a wise one isnt neccesary ! please visit my website to see if im a girl or not ? less of the wise-`cracks` i didnt do any on you !
mr: D.ross, thanks for the info: and again English lesson, yes your English is good ! i cannot deny, but as i said i just thrash my keyboard to get my point onto this, the A/X disscussion board, i will say it again, i have NOT disrespected you nor san-shou, we have little or none of it here in the U.K !? i was just asking about the shorts ? NO BIG deal. Please stop going off on one ! and trying to be `smart` in the way of English. Ref; English ? when you yanks can learn to speak correct English ? then give me a lesson ! since when has colour been spelt color ? since when has Maths ? been called math ? ( is there only one person / part to it ? And why is semi pronouced semai the i is more of an ei ( hard to write pronunciation ) and why do you put the `month` in the wrong position to the rest of the World ? It should start with Day, Month, year ! this is the political correct way ! so leave the English bashing out of this ! and stop trying to drag me into a verbal fight. Again i will say it ! as you seem NOT to be listening ? either a little hard of hearing ? or slight on sight ? im not AGAINST you NOR san shou, good luck with your sport and art, and to you for trying to get it into the higher ranks of the fighting world ! it is hard as mentioned above to get it noticed we know ! and to prove itself in a market that is ever expanding ! again ! please accept what im saying to you is not i `repeat` NOT me having a go at you or san shou ! you led me into your argument and im sorry its led up to this !
sandy holt u.k.m.t.a
www.thaiboxing.co.uk
p.s. thanks Kirk for you vote of confidence ? i thought id improved loads ? in my `hard` to read posts ? sorry if they arnt easy to read, sandy man.

What's with Zed ? I never got Zed. I mean, we don't say Ged, or Bed, or Ced, Ded, Ed, Ped, Ted, ect. and so on. A through Zee just sounds right.

Are you trying to suggest you are speaking the King's English ? Pissah ! Americanese is conciser and more practical like. It's all here in my Time Life books, wanna hear about it ?

-Mark, your welcome for the info. Feel free to spread the word.

So maybe we should clear up all confusion as to which sport is being represented and is the best...and all fight naked! Bet that would draw a bigger crowd...well, at least when the girls fight.

Any competant linguist will inform you that the English spoken in the United States is closer to the original English spoken in Great Britain than what the English currently speak. It is an established phenomenon, those that leave an area are more linguistically conservative and thus change their language less

Don't let the facts confuse you

gee its a zzzeeebra is it ? haha so you still want a war on words mr: D.ROSS all this coz u put up a few pics: that i asked about shorts ? and you have many, many ,many verbalistic goes ?! at your art and sport ( try reading them above mine on here on your san shou ! ) and you will see there is no slagging off from me ! ( do you have that word in American English ? as you seem to make up enough `words` as you go along OOOPS sorry miss "spellings" as you go along ! go away and play on a English spellcheck not a yankee doodle dandy one mmm let me see `too live kru` ( while you are throwing in your 2 pennies worth ( not cents ) heres one for you re: IRONY ??????????????? AMERICAN "ENGLISH" ??????? MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM "DER" OR AS YOU SAY "DOH"
go away both of you as you must have too much time on your hands ! try training instead of preaching ! your starting to bug !

Both of you?

too live kru and D.ross ( not you Vince, you train kick and punch / box they poss: only a keyboard ( u.s.a ) one at that ! and what all this has got to do with anything ? i dont know ? seeing as some of the above posts positively / definately slag san shou off !! `i havent` ! as i dont know too much about it ! we dont ( as far as i know ) have it in the u.k. muay-thai and kick-boxing are prevelent ! im just curious ? about it ! but mr dross seems to want to have a go back at me ? and TOTALLY missed all the other posts that see it as a weaker copy of muay-thai ?? i never said anything like that ? all i was asking was why do other styles ?? wear THAI-style shorts ?? and mr DROSS decided to talk about eskimos and parkas and how americans speak better ENGLISH hahahahahahaha ! what a pathetic joke ! you want to live over here and listen to the flack yanks get over their English and intelligence ?? ( thats not a go at all americans)ive nothing personal against any ! ? ive quite a few great friends over there ! i find quite great ! but they get let down by tossers who want to come on here trying to give an English man English lessons ?/ by a yank ?? what a laugh ! PLUS this is supposed to be a martial-arts website chat site not a library ! thanks anyway Vince cheers buddy for your understanding at least ! thanks sandy man holt u.k.m.t.a
www.thaiboxing.co.uk

p.s. you dont sleep in a BED ?
ted is a name ! ped is said like the start of riding a bike ie: peddle
ted is as i say a name and is short for a teddy too ! you dont have them in your beds ? Ged is also a name too !
Ed is a shortened name you must have that ? like famous u.s.a. top kempo man ED PARKER who sadly passed away !
try these words out as you have said them in your post `to live kru` ! as they all make sense when you speak English ! as guess what ? hey "amazing" they are English, you speak English ! and just in case you aint been out of the walls of the u.s.a ????????? like about 90%of americans who havent ! the world is a much bigger place, and there are are hundreds of other countries apart from yours ! and guess what ??? they nearly "all" speak .............. yep you got it English the world over ! not bad for a little itzsy bitzsy country called ENGLAND eh ! ? ! sure have spread the WORD ! didnt they / we.

It's official, Sandy has proven himself a moron...

Dude, before you spout shit, maybe check who you are talking to. I've got one of the largest, most successful gyms in the US including champions in your dear "Thai boxing"

You must be smoking crack because you can't follow a simple argument. Plus, the way you write you must be brain damaged...

And what's with that "pound" coin ? Does it weigh a pound ? NO ! Seems pretty silly if you ask me.

lkfmdc,
personal insults are not tolerated on AX. Visit http://www.axkickboxing.com/kick/message/ to see for yourself. I think you are getting overly defensive over Sandy's simple question. He then tried to lighten this topic up with some humour; which some how offended you. There was no need for personal insults and I think it shows immaturity on your part.

Kevin

PS. If you guys are going to continue to have this England vs. USA grammer arguement, could you please start a new topic with "not kickboxing related" in the title.

I say tomatoe you tomato

you say potatoe i saw potato

Is my English right there?

Sandy Mann,
bro just try to keep a cool heart- to all this nonsence it's just words.

Come on if you think about it Mr, ikfmdc is a Sanshou repersentive
here in the America, I dont know- maybe even the world. He's hurling
insults like a kid that's not the way to spread your art.

"Talk is cheap"

I respect Sanshou I understand that It is young and trying
to get a spot in the world of Martial Arts.
-This is not a way to do it-

thanks guys !..... sorry to drag myself down to their level ! i admit i got caught up in it . i kept saying sorry if i was disrespecting anyone ( to which i was "not" ) in the first place, why have the 2,( and i still say gentlemen even at this stage)above guys ? ( yet to let themselves down from that title shortly ) i see it that my posts are not being read ? for all i was asking at the top of this topic list was about shorts ? with NOT an intended slur on "anyone" ! but please dont try to teach an English man an english lesson ! its like me trying to teach an American to eat burgers and hotdogs !
mr d ross and mr sawtanang, please if you want to make it a fun "language" thing fine ! as we could have a laugh with the English pronunciation and american way ! it would make a good reading and LIGHT HEARTED topic ! like the A/X 100 i put up ! its a laugh. TRY taking life more easy and not so serious ! if you put that much effort into having to think about your / our native language, into your sport youd be another champion ? poss:? take a chill `pill` ! and remember it was you yanks that invented `crack` we / i dont use it ! guess `you` might know what its like ?? as i wouldnt know how to IDENTIFY anyone on it ?????????????????? thanks sandy man holt u.k.m.t.a
www.thaiboxing.co.uk

Not you Sandy...
That was directed towards lkfmdc's

"Dude, before you spout shit, maybe check who you are talking to. I've got one of the largest, most successful gyms in the US including champions in your dear "Thai boxing"

over the past couple of posts and threads, and past couple of days, lkfmdc has proven himself to be very imature and very unprofessional.
"BEWARE UNPORFESSIONAL PROMOTER"....his rpevious thread applies to himself

"Dude, before you spout shit, maybe check who you are talking to. I've got one of the largest, most successful gyms in the US including champions in your dear "Thai boxing".....give me a break!!

Matt, who are yout champions in what sanctioning body and what weight class?

"Dude, before you spout shit, maybe check who you are talking to. I've got one of the largest, most successful gyms in the US including champions in your dear "Thai boxing"

Sawtanang, that was a quote from lkfmdc, not Matt.

But that is a very a good question........

Perhaps because of Sandy's style of posting you have failed to notice that he was certainly the first to insult. He stated that I don't know anything about kickboxing:

"too live kru and D.ross ( not you Vince, you train kick and punch / box they poss: only a keyboard" - Sandy's direct quote

He stated that all Americans are stupid:

"the flack yanks get over their English and intelligence" - another of Sandy's direct quotes

Of course, this all started with Sandy comment that since San Shou fighters wear shorts they must be Thai boxers. Despite the fact that I and several others have pointed out that shorts are not an original Thai item, he continued to post negative things about San Shou

So, perhaps it is ok for Sandy to post insults but not for me to respond. So be it... It's ok for him to say I don't know anything about kickboxing without knowng a thing about me, so be it...

NO point in arguing with these fans of Sandy's, their minds are set in their thought.

lkfmdc, i think that both of your arguments are foolish. Who wears shorts, who punchs & kicks, who speaks proper English. Who cares. As with all of these arguments everyones right, and everyones wrong. There is always someone who claims to have all of the answers....always. You could both be agreeing on the same thing, and still have something to argue about.

I think the problem here is, that you have been coming off with some prety bold statments...."Dude, before you spout shit, maybe check who you are talking to. I've got one of the largest, most successful gyms in the US including champions in your dear "Thai boxing"

I started this post just to put up some pictures of San Shou matches, it didn't even have any real content, certainly it didn't "attack" any art. But when you post San Shou pictures or anything about San Shou there are certain Muay Thai people who have to butt in and talk about how Muay Thai is "superior" and how everything copies Muay Thai. All you have to do is read this thread and see how it develops. Honestly, I am tired of it and think it is stupid. Muay Thai is a good art and can stand on its achievements and merits, it doesn't need these "fans" spreading propoganda, being rude to other arts.

Sandy's argument, that San Shou is "obviously Muay Thai because of the shorts" (I'm actually paraphrasing) is silly because the Thais took the short from boxing. I posted this, several others did. Sandy seems unable to comprehend our arguments and continued to post inane things which frankly I found irritating.

Sandy continued to post insutls, as I've shown above. Saying the only "box" I know is the box of my computer. He doesn't know anything about me and yet he posts these insults. I had a semi finalist and finalist in teh NY golden gloves amateur boxing tournament this year, one of the top amateur events in boxing. I have over 15 active fighters, including pros, in my gym with many titles. he should keep his uninformed opinions to himself. Sorry, but when Sandy made comments about my knowledge of kickboxing he was indeed "spouting $#%&" and I don't feel a need to be polite anymore.

I have been polite to others in this thread and certainly if you read my threads in total I am not attacking anything. I just posted pics and then defended my style of kickboxing.

Seems pretty simple, but I get attacked, so I have just given up. Not worth arguing about with people who feel the need to post "Muay Thai is #1"....

YAWN

The actual quote is...". quick question i dont know much about san-shou i beleive its good ! but if its kung-fu / chinese based ?? ( is that right ? ) why do they wear THAI-SHORTS ?? just curious ?? thankyou "respectfully" asked ?", Not, and again I quote "that San Shou is "obviously Muay Thai because of the shorts"

But this is getting to be a little silly. Like...my daddy can beat up your daddy...

So...my mom can beat up my daddy.

I answered by asking why Thais wear shorts as they are not traditional Thai clothing and pointing out that we have many differences from Muay Thai, it degenerated from there...

But actually, I am just becoming convinced that this place is somehow linked to another dimension where reason as I understand it does not apply. I mean, in a thred entitled "test, ignore" where I just wanted to see if a picture could be posted it has become like 12 posts including an admonition from the web master now... So I don't really have much hope that there is any point in posting here any more as I don't understand what logic runs this place

lkfmdc,

can you please just tell sandy why san sho has decided to where shorts and not something traditionally chinese?

we know there is no reason why they shouldn't have. the question though is whether or not there is a reason why they did.

kyokushin could very well get rid of the karate-gi for shorts but they don't for reasons of tradition. the same can be said for savate tights.

if you don't know for sure why san shou fighters wear shorts, then speculate. you're still the most knowledgable san shou dude on the board.

David,

I'm sorry if that felt to be an admonition (thanks for teaching me a new word).

I would be glad to help you if you have any technical problems regarding posting pictures, as you seem to have because you have opened up the second thread for that purpose in a short period of time. Tell me please what the problem is, as I can only see the number of pictures you could post, but not the ones you couldn't, so I can't help you further without at least some description of what is causing problems for you.

everyone,

Regarding 'my style, your style': please note, that this is not a traditional Martial Arts message board, where discussions of this type are often happening. :) It might come to the point where 'Muay Thai is the best' debate threads get stamped with 'not kickboxing related'. I think I'm not alone when I say I really don't need more threads along the lines of Bunjeerd's, please. :)

Good post Vince and Felix.



Has San shou been in competition much over the years?

In my thinking, regardless of weather or not San Shou kicks the 'same' as MuayThai, whos been training/fighting?

I'm not trying to get things going again but regardless as to what use to happen, you learn the kick from kicking. Even if San Shou had always had this but hadn't the oppertunity to fight it would make sence to get a 'refresher course' fro those who have been doing it steadily for years.

Again I don't know anything about San Shou except for one match I saw...and I won't comment on that at this time.

Well I think you better check up on Sandy´s too.
I think his fighters are not shit either. Why don´t you guys settle this argument with little confrontation fights Sandy´s fighters against lkmfdc´s?
He states he has MT champions there so it should not be a problem.

Continuing what Mark L. has wrote: yes, David, please tell us more about the history and present of San Shou/San Da. I think many of the recent, hmm, misunderstandings stem from our uneducatedness in the issue.

Mark L., some spelling lessions (just the ones I get a terrible shiver when I see):

Weather is the thing with the sun, clouds and temperature; I think you mean "whether".

Knowlage is knowledge - although I know you might be exposed to some French which might have influenced that spelling :P

"It's there own thing" - where? or do you mean "It's their own thing" ? :)

"whos" - is that like a couple of "who" together? There exists "Whose book is this? It's mine/yours/etc", and there is the short for for "Who is" which is "Who's"
Dynamo,
You sometimes write "as farest" - it sounds similar, but the actual words are "as far as".

Ok, it's your turn now guys. :)

andras,
there are no i's in lesson. j/k buddy

oh, okay, thanks. you're right. :) also I guess I should've written 'Mark L. has written' instead of 'Mark L. has wrote'.

btw, have you got my reply email several weeks back? but that's offtopic, so please email me. :)

Thanks for the spel lesson guys. But I'm not gonna type slower and check everthing I spel. I am a bad speller but its also time and typing. When you are not an experianced typist and type as fast as you can as your thoughts are flying away you(I) don't always take the time to think about how things are spelled. Sometimes we go by sounds to speed up the typing. And sometimes the spelling is indeed just teribel:P

That's why I'm too scared to post in this thread as I'm worry (know how bad my spelling is!!) about spelling being exposed...LOL!

Seriously, I think the point that most people missed here is "MARKETING". In my opinion people have different taste. Some may enjoy watching San Chou and some prefer kick boxing, boxing or Thai Boxing etc. Arguing about techniques (spinning kicks, boxing, round kicks etc) will lead to arguments on how effective a particular style vs another, which in my opinion will never end and often get into personal comments. So what if Thais throws something that looks like a flashy Tae Kwon Do techniques, or shan shou wear Thai shorts and round kick like MT fighters, MT fighters punches like western boxers. If it appeals to the crowd and that's all it matters. NHB fighters are very effective in what they do, but for me personally I don't enjoy watching two guys lock in the ground for a few 10 minutes and commentators running out of things to say. But hey! That's Lollo, my only opinion (other people will think dirrerent)That's why I don't often go to it. If I know the fighter personally, I would go and support otherwise I wouldn't. I once took a team to China in 98' and it wasn't until we got there that we found out it was san shou rules. We fought and my fighters did really well even though we it was our first fight in that rules. We picked up a couple of Gold Medals. There were some Russians there also. I'm not gonna get into that MT vs San shou thing as we enjoyed the experience. However, for me personally, it didn't really appeal to me to promote it here in New Zealand, but other people do and good on them. I don't have to go and watch it. My point is, if your a san shou fan, enjoy. If your MT fan enjoy it. But do it at the right place and a enviroment that you get postive supports. If your not, you'll get into debate. I'm sure there other sites who do not know or care what we discuss because they have no interest of what we do or say, and vice-versa.

thanks VINCE !!! ( and all who see the POINT ! cheers ) D.ross, you have totally missed my point ! and are still not reading my posts ? i only got into an arguement with you when you ran out into the street and shouted abuse at me ! ?/ why ?/ you have totally misinterpreted my post ?? and took it way out of proportion ! Yes i did get into an arguement with your attacking answers ! what you have put up there just a few posts above this ! i never said anything of the sort ?? ( see Vinces part of my post hes kindly posted )
way up at the top ! is where "you" started to get vindictive and i started to respond ! it was a case of i ask a question ? about shorts ? thats all !!!!!!! and you jabbed me ! ? then hit me again ? so after a couple of shots ! i decided to "defend" myself ! either you are as you accuse me of ? ( on drugs ?) or do not understand ENGLISH as you seem to sound very intelligent ! as your posts are of high calibre / english written ! where did i say you was NO GOOD at kickboxing ??? ive NEVER said that to anyone ?? your a reputable trainer are you not ?????? why have a go at you ??? EVERYONE ON HERE seems to get along fine why not you ?? ask yourself ? why your getting remarks ? back ? it cant be us all who find you very paranoid !!!!? you seem to be very touchy ! and as stated above its not about how big your dad is or my champions ? how many ? or if this is BETTER than that ?? where ?? when ?? did i say muay-thai was better ?? etc?? you are def: paranoid ! again i will say the same !!!!!!!!! CHILL please ! thanks sandy man holt u.k.m.t.a
www.thaiboxing.co.uk

p.s. mr dross, i NEVER said "all" Americans are dumb ! you need to read my posts FULLY ! ive got a lot of intelligent American freinds ( a lot ive met on here too ! ) so dont try to pull that one ! read my posts again !!!!!!!!! especially WHY after what you write on your posts ?? then and ONLY then read my answers ! to YOURS ! thankyou ! sandy man holt u.k.m.t.a
www.thaiboxing.co.uk

Sandy don't lie. You can't have alot of intelligent American friends. :P


Just joking guys. :) Canucks and Yanks are pretty much the same...and I'm pretty much a Canuck(though not quite:)

Mark L. Sandy was talking about his parents...They are Americans...he!he!LOL! Sorry The Sandy Man...I just couldn't help myself...Te!he!he!

LOL

First off this doesn't prove nor is it intended to say one style is better.


I know one fighter who fought in China about half a year ago. The tourney was in Kune Ming(is that right?). He says the rules allowed all sorts of throws, allowed knees and no elbows.

It went over a 5 day period on a stage, no ropes.

Somsak(a trainer here/ when they get older they mostly fight over seas.) said he took the tourney fighting 8 people over the 5 day period.

This proves nothing, it was just a current topic and I just found out this today, I'm at the gym right now.

Mark L, your story, if nothing more, proves my assertion that Chinese promoted events have and still occassionally do allow knee strikes. YOur stable mate Sawtanang had made the incorrect assertion that Chinese fighters never fight with knees...

I am quite sure there are Thais fighting in China. I am equally sure that they can do well, win even the whole thing. That was never an issue for argument

Like i said at the beggining of the post. This is NOT to prove anything. I was talking to the guy and we where talking about where he's fought. China came up and it went from there.

I think thats a pretty cool story. If i wanted to try and talk about styles I may have talked about how the throws(or attemted throws) went.

Do you know about this event? Was this a San Shou event? Do they just allow knees sometimes or is it different rules(not San Shou?) It was alittle difficult getting the info out of him once we realised it wasn't a MuayThai fight. Language barrier and the Thais seem to say different things on other days sometimes. i still haven't figured this one out. I don't know if its just language or what but even age. I get different ages from them all the time...strange

Is the stage always preferable, ring only if they have to?

Sawtanang mentioned knees and elbows. I'm not sure if he ment together or not.

Stage is traditional, in the "old days" (dating back to 1920's and before, made illegal by Chinese government in 1927) you set up a stage up to 8 feet off the ground and tried to knock the guy off, not fun stuff... More and more they are using a boxing ring because every other fighting sport does.

In the "old days" (in this case prior to 1991 and first amateur world championship) Chinese fighting events could have gone by several terms. There wer a lot of different events; Hong Kong Open, South East Asia Cup, Tainan Cup, All Taiwan Championship, etc. In 1991 the Mainland Chinese organized first amateur world championship in Beijing with a standard set of rules and called them "San Shou" officially. Today, we understand "San Shou" to mean basicly that format, no knees or elbows. But when the Chinese use other terms, especially "San Da" as in "San Da Wang/King of San Da" the rules could pretty much mean anything including elbows and knees.

RE elbows, they tend to NOT be that common in Chinese style events. It is a cultural thing, Chinese view the elbow as serious, potentially deadly. One old term for elbow techniques is "Mei Tin Jaang Faat" which actually means "techniuqes where you have to sell your land to get free". I know that sounds really strange but in China if you killed someone you could get out of prison if you paid a large sum of money to the family of the person you killed to compensate them for their loss. Thus, they thought of elbows as potentially deadly. Now, from what I understand, Thais love elbows and don't have these issues. But that's a Chinese thing and they don't like fighting with them. In the South East Asia Cup elbows WERE LEGAL, but the Chinese fighters usually only used them on Non Chinese (Thai, Vietnamese, Malaysian) fighters and not on ethnic Chinese opponents.

Makes any sense?

Thanks for the info.

Know anything about that event, am i off in anyway or did I understand correctly?

There are so many events in China, it is impossible to know about all of them. In the last 5 years or so the government significantly lessened its restraints on martial arts training and fighting and there has been a huge rebirth in these sorts of events.

So does that mean your answer is that you don't know of this event?

Have not heard about this event....

Thanks

1kfmdc says:

"San Da" as in "San Da Wang/King of San Da" the rules."

I don't think it's very healthy for the body (and mind) to have this WANG/KING! rules in the West!!! Tehe!he!he! Very sorry David....I just couldn't help myself there!!! I hope you don't take it as a disrespect.....We need a laugh after all these long debate.....LOL!

ROFL

...you've got to much time on your hand, Lollo

hehehe

Both my hands are on plaster from training Barry....I have one of these talking computors who types out my posts when I tell it to, which I just recently realised after reading it on AX how bad it spells! As you can see my hands can't allow me to fight in this new rules...(WANG/KING tournaments)....LOL! But I do know a few naturals around here and I'm sure you know some in your area also...LOL!!!

Lollo

..after the last couple of posts, I almost afraid to ask how you injuried BOTH hands in training. I don't think I won't too know !!!

hehehe

I ran straight into that one...didn't I....Even if I said Thai Boxing training its too late....You think I've been training hard out for the other rules didn't you??? LOL! You got me!!! Tehe!he!he!he! DAMN! I CAN'T BELIEVE I LET MYSELF OPEN FOR THAT!!!

....and I'm not going to let you forget it, Oh Boastful One!!!! hehehe

On a more serious note, we've just been notified the TBA has got full funding for it's Nationals at the end of the year. Should say the TBA is grateful to Martin Stirling for arranging it.

...and seeing you might have time on your hands ( no pun intended ), are you interested in being involved ??? ...and is that your current Email above???

... Brett D'Arth and most of the TBA officials will be at Mark Hampton's show on Saturday and I hope to start finalising details with them all

Way to go Martin...It's an awesome news....Well done guys and keep it up...Of course, you will always have my support. Yes...it's the right e-mail address.

Wow! It takes the guys from Wind City to take it to the top. huh?..Chiang, I remember the very first meeting we had with Brett De Arth, Terry Hill, Fanta, Phillip Lam and Steve (I forgot his last name). It was in a little Chinese restaurant at Welesley Street, Auckland City. The year was 1992. Wow!!! You guys did an awesome job. I was heavyly involved but I had to step down as president because I had too many fighters contracted overseas by mid 90's that I didn't feel it was fair for other people in the committee who are fully committed to the organisation. I was flying to Aussie, Hong Kong or China etc...just about every month around that time. You guys stuck it out even when other sanctioning bodies from overseas were trying to get in. You remained in control. I take my hat off for you, Martin, Brett and the boys. You finally pulled through and get the Government support. Wow!!! That is great news...

Right on


and Lollo has me loling once again

no sign of mr:dross ? mr IGNORANT ? seen him ? JOKER ? ROBIN ? im sure a few of you on here have better names for him by now ! i will leave that for you ! he he ! sawtanang ?? where are ya buddy ! cant blame you for getting mad at him ! i know your young and feisty ! i was at your age ! and would do exactly the same as you wanted to do ! but we do grow older and wiser as they say ! but mr:dross has a way of either IGNORANCE, deflection, or just plain aggressive nonsense type arguements to fire at us ! ta sandy man holt u.k.m.t.a
www.thaiboxing.co.uk

Why do people not admit that Muaythai is the root of Contemporary Kickboxing styles? Ikfmdc said SanShou fighters wore Thai Short because of International recognition as same as other Kickboxing style. But keep in mind, SanShou has been developed by following Muaythai's forms. In history, many Kung Fu fighters lost to Muaythai then Kung Fu had to be developed in that way.

I am sorry if I have offended people again. i wrote what I saw and what the fact is.

"Why do people not admit that Muaythai is the root of Contemporary Kickboxing styles?"

Because perhaps it isn't true? There are many "kickboxing like" martial arts traditions with roots in Asia. Only fanatical Muay Thai fans want to claim ALL of them come from Muay Thai...

"But keep in mind, SanShou has been developed by following Muaythai's forms"

Can you offer ANYTHING to prove this is anything other than your opinion? What makes San Shou "following Muay Thai's forms"? Becaue they have round kicks? I think I should post something from mixedmartialarts.com where someone who had never seen San Shou just saw the king of San Da events for the first time. He commented on how much UNLIKE Muay Thai it was...

"In history, many Kung Fu fighters lost to Muaythai then Kung Fu had to be developed in that way"

The only thing history shows is that when Chinese martial artists have fought under Thai rules, they have lost some matches. This includes times when Chinese fighters traveled to Thai having been promised one set of rules only to arrive and have the Thai authority change what they have said (Taiwanese fighters invited to Thailand in the 1970's were told that they could use throws, but upon arriving, were told only the throws legal in Muay Thai, a fundamental difference)

History has also shown us that in events where BOTH elbows/knees AND throws were used Hong Kong Open, South East Asia Cup etc the results were much more 50/50


The "then Kung Fu had to be developed in that way" is again, an OPINION, which is fine, but don't state it as anything other than this

this post can be found at

http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/mma3forums/thread.cfm?thread_id=210061&ThreadName=Just%20got%20%26%20watched%20Sanda&messages=4&forum_id=57

Subject: My thoughts on sanda so far
From: Hayashi
Date: 23-Aug-01 | 11:42 PM

Hi all,

Just received two tapes of "King of Sanda" matches afew days ago and I must say its quite interesting and entertaining. Thought I'd give my comments to anyone interested in sanda/ sanshou.

First of all, to anyone who thinks Sanda is just kickboxing/ MT with throws is deluded! The matches differ so much! Main thing I have notice is unlike MT, most of the fighters tend not to use the rear roundhouse kick and knees. They favor using lead leg kick techniques for alot of situations. I guess they are trained to catch kicks and rear leg kicks are easier to catch and the consequences severe if caught. Alot more different type of kicks is seen than in MT. I have seen lead side kick, lead shin kick, lead hook kick, lead inside to outside crescent kick, axe kick, rear shin kick, spinning hook & back kick (including jumping variations). One guy did a spinning hook kick which hit his opponent's head and without putting the leg down followed it up with a side kick again to the head. Didn't have ko power but good shock value, points and a crowd pleaser.

Another interesting thing is in most of the sanda matches I've seen there is no feeling out period. From round 1 the guys are on turbo and are aiming to ko each other out asap. Most of the fighters' punching techniques are ok I guess but of course no where near the skill level of pro western boxers. The jab doesn't seem to be used much and they seemed to favour leading in with hooks or a warding off lead hand into a right cross or hook. Sometimes it looks like a toughman contest.

As have already been said, they dont tend to use the rear shin kick or knees much. In clinching situations most of the fighters tend to use wrestling techniques or use good old fashion one hand grab the opponent's head/neck while the other punch him. I saw about 3 fighters out of about 20 so far who actively use knees. One of the three seem to have MT as his main style. He holds his guard and move and sway as in MT. His wrestling skills were quite good and it enable him to use many knees in the clinch.

----------------------------------------------

Subject: Sanda vs Karate
From: Hayashi
Date: 24-Aug-01 | 12:19 AM

To my great surprise, my sanda tape also contained the Sanda vs Karate match that occurred awhile back. Actually it should be more correct to call it China vs Japan because the "karate" team contained I think two non-karate people. In the intro to the whole event, each of the fighter does a lil show off thing to the crowd when his name is called out. The 70kg Jap fighter saluted the crowd with a Shaolin gesture and performed a short Wushu style Southern Fist mixed with more free fighting techniques as his intro. The 85 kg Jap fighter did a very MT style shadowboxing combinations though his salute style was kyokushin style. The other Jap fighters seem to be of the kyokushin style. I say this because they opening/salute gesture is that normal standing position with the two hands in a cross and opening up to end at the side/front thing. They did boring short karate katas. All the Chinese fighters did a mix of sanda combinations mixed in with classical wushu style forms as their intros.

65kg match - The Jap fighter got outclassed. The Chinese were landing alot of fist techniques and side kicks on on him. He also got thrown alot. The Jap fighters likes to come in with a right cross and the Chinese would slip to the left and then throw him with an underhook hip throw using the Jap's momentum and moment of imbalance. This happen about 5-7 times of which twice the referee had to quickly come in between the fighters to stop the Chinese attacking the Jap while he's falling. The Jap tried to please (or is that enrage the crowd since this was in China?) by doing a little taunting to the Chinese fighter. Didn't work, Chinese dominated and won.

70kg- This match was over in about 2 minutes. The Chinese fighter overwhelmed the Jap with striking techniques at the opening bell and the ref came in to break it up. The Jap then tried to do a lil striking of his own. He came in with a jab into a low rear shin kick. The Chinese blocked and shoot in at the same time, controlled the waist and lifted him for a spectacular over the shoulder throw which KOed the Jap. The Jap landed on his head which was unintentional I think. He was falling down awkwardly imho. Crowd went wild.

75kg- The Jap guy seem to be abit flabby for a full contact standup fighter imo. Compared to him, the Chinese looked fit, mobile and ripped. Again another match dominated by the Chinese using alot of striking combinations. But suddenly in the fourth round, the Chinese fighter seemed to have sometjing wrong with his leg. The Jap sees this and leaps in like a starving dog. Funnily enough for a guy with what initially looked like an injured leg, the Chinese fighter ward off the Japanese in usual dominating fashion. Then when they broke up from the clinch, the Chinese walked over to the rope and gave up the match due to the "injured" leg. I really think the Chinese actor was the worst actor I've ever seen. A noble but disagreeable gesture by the Chinese so that the Jap can save some face.

80kg- The Jap guy tried to go toe to toe against the Chinese and on some occasion he looked like he can do the job. He looked like he went pyscho on several occasions, u know that Jap never say die kinda thing?, especially after he received a good shot to the face. Unfortunately it wasn't enough and the Chinese clearly dominated the fight with his punching and side kicks. On two occasions the Chinese landed sidekicks squarely on the Jap's chest which sent him staggering backwards several steps.

Ikfmdc,

Sounds very interesting,thanx a bunch for the info.

Do you have do you have any Sanshou videos???

bunjerd and lkfmdc,
i agree bunjerd, muaythai has influenced kicking in modern day kickboxing like no other. is it the root no.think of it this way, how can muaythai be the root of kickboxing if kickboxing involves punching and kicking?now i know muaythai has punches but lets face it, outside of thailand, the punching being used is western boxing. so if kicking makes up half of the sport KICKboxing and punching makes up the other half kickBOXING, then how can muaythai be the root?please don't try to convince me that everyones punching like the thais.

i think most agree, the thais are responsible for the shin kick.they're the best at it and have proven it time after time.with chinese martial arts being in the public view far longer than muaythai, if they did indeed develop this style kick i'm sure it would have been noticed before the thais.
your mentioning about the exchange of coaches solidifies it more for me. why bring thai trainers in if there are chinese trainers who know this? the thais are bringing in chinese trainers but i'm sure it's not to help them develop their striking skills but their throwing skills.

Well said Kirk.

Bunjerd long time no see. :)

I don't remember seeing anyone out side of Thailand use MuayThai punches. I'm sure soe do but most do the boxing thing by a long shot.

More resently I've been learning to punch Thai style and I love it. I'm seeing the difference between it and 'boxing' hands more and more.

hey guys,
i think this whole thing from my point of view and a few others is that:
muaythai vs. kickboxing(i.e. fc,san shou etc)
i just dont understand the point of going around cross training in this and that to find a good complete kickboxing system,when muaythai is there.mt has been tested over and over again.
if there are 10 students who study mt with the same teacher.each fighter will develope his or her own style of mt.whatever weapons that person prefers.so everyone has their own style of mt.even if the styles are different,its still muaythai(not kickboxing).my main point is:all these newer kb sports who wants to develope their own style will problably end up studying muaythai.benny the jet,rick roufus,francsco filho,nick pettas and CUNG LE all know this.muaythai may not be the root, but the answer.

:) I won't go there.

Mark, wouldn't that be taking a step backwards...learning to punch Thai style?
haha

i disagree.muaythai punching wouldn't be as effective under full contact rules or leg kick rules. when rick,and all the other guys you mentioned trained muaythai, it was for the leg kicks and the thai rnd not for it's hands.
changpuek,kaman,hoost, these 3 have all fought each other. without a doubt kaman and hoost had better hands. where did their careers start europe, where they use western boxing.
the thai style is good for mauythai, but would be limited under other rules against competition of the same level.
i firmly believe had chang and ricks fight been fought under fc rules rick would have won hands down.
i think the euro style is more well rounded and has allowed them to compete under all rules because of it's diversity.

you do have a good point.but how do you feel about guys like coban?hes never trained in western boxing(not that i know of),yet has still been able to beat dekkers,even though dekkers has great hands?what about attachai,rambo or kaolan?my point is that you dont have to train in western boxing to achieve good hands.some mt fighters prefer kicks(i.e. changpuek) and some prefer hands(i.e. coban)it just depends on what your preference is.the europeon style of muaythai is the best right now.why?no gambling to interfer.muaythai in thailand is and has been is trouble,too much corruption.that is why they all fight alike.you kick,i kick,this is just to please the gamblers.the europeon style of muaythai is the old school muaythai.full of tricks and they didnt create this themselves
,they were trained by old school thai teachers.

Matt-$%$^#@ :)

Yenoneski, This thread is getting too long go to "western vs muay thai punches"

It seem's to me that the majority of people on this board have a one time or another spent time researching Muay Thai. Why not take a little time and do the same for San Shou. You would find as Mark alluded San Shou has been a Gung Fu system for close to a hundred years.

In English it has been called Chinese Fast Wrestling in Chinese Kuai Jiao. There is nothing new about this Art. In the old days in China many of these practitioners were the ones to win all styles competitions. We all have computers, turn one on and spend ten minutes you can find all kinds of info out there. Or why not just say every thing came from Muay Thai its much easier that way. Who cares about splitting hairs I bet the time spent learning about Kuai Jiao would be enjoyed by most. Regardless of which one you think is best.
Traditionally the matches are fought on a raised platform, some of their throws are second to none. Guess what happens when you are thrown on your head off a raised platform = Its a crowd pleaser.

The only person I know of teaching, is in Vancouver. You can reach him at www.shouyuliang.com
He is a highly regarded historian on Chinese Martial Arts.