Not been on Sports Science forum for a while and just been skimming through, so forgive me if this has already been covered.

What is the most effective way to burn fat without doing cardio based exercise.

I ask this as I`ve read on here that cardio burns both muscle and fat, so what do you do if you want to keep all your muscle?

Will the fat loss take much longer compared to a similarly length cardio session?

Muscle always burns fat..

Resistance training... we aren't designed for cardio anyway-hense the catabolic state we go into. Meaning break down (eats muscle etc)

You can do resistance training to maintain muscle mass and increase strength with out gaining size. You go for 'reletive strength'

Things like teaching the moto unites to syncronize better there for firing more of the muscle at the same time-so you can move faster and stronger and more powerfully yet you haven't added muscle mass. Or teaching the nervous system to recruit more of the motor unites (same response).

Most of the strength training comes from body building...not thje place athletes want it from. (even if you want to go for 'maximum strenth'-which will also give you size).

Obviously eating/sleeping/drinking (water) right play large factors too.

Anaerobic exercise will be good for fat loss too 9more appropriate for MuayThai conditioning too imo

Basically anything that speeds up or improves the metabolism will burn fat

going overly catabolic doesNOT improve the metabolism.. Over doing cardio will cause problems. (how many aerobic instructors are fat or soft??? loads)

I think Charles Poliquin calls it FAS. Fat Aerobis Instructor Syndrome.. something like that anyway..

Poliquin is the King of strength and conditioning (speaks 5 languages and is in contact with researchers all over the globe)

rest times and reps play a big role too in the response you want from your training...

Endurance cardio is notorious for eating away at muscle, look at marathon runners they look like they have some kind of muscle wasting disease. Its best not to give up the cardio completely because it does do alot of good for your heart and lungs but I have found that interval sprint work is pretty good for your endurance and general fitness but doesnt eat away at your muscle. There are heaps of different intervals you can do but I like 3mins run 1 min jog its also fantastic for heart rate and recovery time but if you run hard for 3 mins you are working your power and then give yourself a short recovery so that your body is getting used to the routine you want for a fight, go hard recover quick. Obviously weight work can be good because more muscle will increase your metabloism but completely eliminating the cardio seems a bit chucking the baby with the bathwater to me because you will loose the cardivascular benefits that weight work cant replace. I wouldnt do 20km runs a day but 1/2hr of intense interval cardio as well as the muscle work and your ring and bag work would be the way to go. if you realy dont want to do cardio you should probably look at getting one of those mouth pieces that make breathing harder so that your lung strength doesnt suffer, cant remember what they are called but you put it in your mouth and it has an adjustable valve that means you have to work harder to inhale air and it strengthens your diaphram, they use them for asthmatics and some pro athletes use them too.

cardio has a place in health but not much of a place in pro MuayThai. cardiovascular endurance-the aerobic energy system is barely gotten into in a pro MuayThai fight (of 3min rnds with 2 min break). Am or K-1 or SL with the one minuit break will get more into the cardi because of the short break and lack of recovery for the other systems.

Energy and conditioning has a place but cardio isn't really needed.

I don't understand it all fully and I know the energy systems are alwys blending to a degree.

I do know that if you train for the 3 min rnd you fight then you are training in the exact energy system you need to fight. if you run for 1hr you are NOT training the energy systems you need to fight at all. You are, after a couple minuits, only training the aerobic energy systems. In a 3 min you are barely using the aerobic energy system. More anerobic/actic acid etc

I would rather train the energy systems for a fight on pads. I have no pad man and there for choose to run. My runs will mimic the energy systems I need to fight.

Makes sense to me.

Its like a space shuttle. The launch uses a big boost and then drops that segment and the next takes over etc... Once in space you can glide along but that initial take off and say the second stage (not being technical here) is what is needed in the fight.

Power, intensity, speed etc are key components in MuayThai. You don't train those energy systems needed by jogging.

Shortening the break has its place IF you are recovering enough. Just shortening the break will keep you in the aerobic energy system and not really train you in the systems you want to use in the fight.

Regardless of how it all technically works if you train what you fight you will be training in the right energy systems.

2min for a min fight
3min for a 3min fight

10min rnds is crazy (I know there are guys out there that are amazingly fast and train that way-I will bet you that they are very gifted genetically. An extreamly well functioning nervous system will give you amazing results almost no matter how you train. Doesn't mean training that way is the best. Generally the best athletes have some very amazing talents and genetic gifts. That doesn't mean that training that way is the best way to improve.

If you have a slow nervous system and you don't train to speed it up some you likely won't get very far.

I mean football players jumping from swiss ball to swiss ball in a day is evidence of an extreamly amazing nervous system. Not there training.

I think overall health is important for any person pro-athlete or not. While a MT fight may not place much emphasis upon the aerobic functions of the body, they serve a purpose in the overall healthy functioning of the system. I dont believe that any fighter could seriously claim to be at their peak when they neglect one area of fitness training, and I think that it does have a negative impact upon other areas of fitness if you dont have a good cardiovascular base. I am not suggesting jogging as the cardio answer because I prefer interval sprints,swimming or the asthma mouth piece, but longer round times can benefit in that they strengthen the heart and lungs and force the body into aerobic mode. While a MT fight may not rely on cardio fitness general health and longevity do, and inadequate recovery between rounds can force your body into aerobic functioning. Absolutely train for what your asking of your body in a fight but there is benefit in asking more of your training than you will ever need in a fight, in a sense over-preparing (not over training) will never go against you. To only prepare for 3min rounds is to take yourself to a pre-set limit at the end of every round, to train for 6min rounds gives the benefit of a fight feeling like half a good sparring round which can make recovery quicker and lessen the natural slowwing towards the end of the fight. Intense intervals working with the time frame you will ask of your body are great, but they work best when you chop it up and throw the odd curve ball like a little endurance work to keep your body responding to different situations. Mark 10min rounds are not only for the genetically gifted and tallented they are a legitimate tool for changing the routine every now and again even for the sad specimins such as myself :)

I agree 100% that over all health is important. Many people are fit and not helathy and short term this works though it sets you up fopr injury, short span, and many health problems, disease etc etc

However I think training MuayThai for ytour sport will have plenty of carry over in the areobic area to be healthy with specifically trying to work it.

I disagree that training for 3min sets u up for barely enough.

I garantee you can not use the same intensity at 6 min as you can in 3min. How fast can you run a mile or a mile in a 50?

Being able to run 50miles will not give you more energy to run a fast 1 mile.

It a different energy system. Its like apples and oranges. It doesn't relate.

Of course they are all mixed and overlap but training in the long term system doesn't do much to benifit your short term system.

Very few sports use much long term energy systems.

I think mixing it up IS good. But I think there are better ways.. and certainly not the norm..

wrestling 90 short term, 10 intermediate
marathon, 5 intermediate 95 long term
hockey 80 short term, 20 intermediate

even tennis is 70 short, 20 intermediate and only 10 long term

M.C. Siff, Y.V. Verkhoshansky. 1993 Supertraining: Special Strength training For Sporting Excellence. School of Mechanical Engineering, University of the Witwtersrand, South Africa.
(Program Design correspondence course CHEK Inst)

I think training for your sport in this regard will have plenty of carry over for health considerations.

Training to punch for 10mins is good for punching for 10mins but you will not be training your body to punch as hard or as fast (more likely to teach it bad form) than training 3min

Get a 100meter sprinter training running 5miles. He'll suck and he'll be winded.

I have trained marathon runners. Couldn't do 2 rounds on pads.

These look like excellent answers but not had chance to read them properly to digest the info, so thanks in advance everyone.

"It is very hard to be aerobically and anaerobically fit at high levels because they detract from each other chemically"
-Paul Chek

"As anaerobic fitness increases the size of the mitocondria goes down and the whole chemical profile switches towards anaerobic. The more aerobic you get the more mitochondrial density you get and the less of an anaerobic profile you get"
-Paul Chek

"There is no research that shows improving your aerobic base of endurance will help out an anaerobic base"
-Kim Goss

Kim Goss talking about strength coach genious Charles Poliquin

he talks about how Charles training the Canadian speed skaters (women I believe). Stopping them doing cardio except in a 6-8 week period over WHOLE year. After dropping %70 to maintain gains. After 6-8weeks no more gains!
Best time being right before season..
The speed skater with the highest VO2Max did NO aerobic conditioning for the 2 months in the strength training phase

I believe Charles has 8 world record holders in speed skating!!!

He had fun trying to get them to stop thier cardio but after they did they started "kicking ass and taking names"
-all on Program Designs Choosing Reps, Loads, Tempo, & Rest Periods correspondance course from the CHEK Inst. (DVD)

Kim Goss, Jerry Telle are a part of some of the lectures..unfortunatly Charles Poliquin couldn't make it.

Kim and Jerry Work with some of the best!!! Of course Paul and Charles do too.

Charles speaks 5 languages I believe. He learned German, for example so he could study German research on strength and conditioning and is in contact with researchers world wide all the time. The man is genious and I don't think there is anything out there to say otherwise.

All these guys work together.

They don't always agree 100% but they know thier shit.

Of course is MuayThai mostly in the short term (anaerobic), intermediate (lactic acid), or long term system (aerobic)?

I believe mostly anaerobic and some intermediate.. but very little aerobic.

Of course thats not proven here but IF it is then there is lots of evidance on how to train the appropriate systems.

I should say I think there is enough there to create some new thought and and enough to inspire some investigation...maybeh

The title of this thread seems to assume that cardio IS the best way to loose weight.. I'd have to say including unhealthy damaging ways, yes. I wouldn't say thats best way then

So what is the most effective, healthy way to burn fat?

Low intensity exercise for example jogging and cycling is usually the best way to lose fat as your body utilises your fat stores as its main source of energy instead of the oxygen in your lungs as it is more effcient to do this as you're not working as hard so not as much oxygen is needed. To get within your fat burning zone, you have to be within 60% of your training zone in order to burn fat most effectively. To do this, do the following calculation below:

220 - your age
the value you get above - your resting BPM.
multiply this value by 0.6
add on your resting BPM.

For example for a 35 year old man with a resting BPM of 80 this would be:
220 - 35 = 185
185 - 80 = 105
105 * 0.6 = 63
63 + 80 = 143 Beats Per Minute

I hope the above proves to be some use to you Phil.

Thanks Calves, but that would involve cardio work, certainly useful for such exercises though. Im wondering about none cardio methods, plus now Mark has brought into the argument staying healthy at the same time. So what would be the ultimate method if you brought that into the equation?

I think Mark L has pretty much hit the nail on the head so to speak. Resistance training, lifting dumbells and increasing the intensity of work outs e.g work harder/increase the time you work on each set, are the best methods and I think having recovery periods of 1 min/ 1min 30 would be beneficial anaerobically. As regarding staying healthy I think eating foods such as protein to keep and build muscle, small amounts of carbs for energy and no fat (ideally but obviously all foods have some amount fat in them) would be best. Get lots of sleep as well as not getting enough sleep causes you to lose muscle quicker. so I've read. Obviously stay hydrated and drink small amounts of water during and after your workout. I'd recommend asking someone at a bodyline gym to put together a resistance programme for you, which would be aimed specifically towards burning fat. I'm sure they'd be able to help you a fair bit.

Good luck mate!

If you fed some people that they'd do great, other wouldn't IMO

Right amount of sleep is around 10pm-6am. Summer you need less than winter. Physical repair 10-2 and mental/emotional etc 2-6am. Timing IS important.

Sleep is a big factor in health of course and it also is in fat loss.

Fat is huge in health-the amounts differ for each person of course..

Example-stress hormones, like cortisol, are made from fat(basically). An over stressed body, be it poor food choices/amounts/quality/ratios, mental/emotional, financial, exercise, thermal, or a gun to your head etc etc all stimulate the sympathetic nervous system and you have an imbalance in cortisol.

If you are over stressed and eat a low fat diet guess where the material comes to make cortisol? Other hormones (fight or flight takes priority). So your repair hormones suffer, sex hormones suffer etc etc etc

Fat is huge in health including saturated fat. The quality and quantity is important of course and you can certainly have too much of a good thing.

Fat stores toxins (in humans too-some fat people can't loose weight cause if they did it would cause too much damage-they need to get healthy first). So poor quality fat-well you get lots of toxins.

find someone that can do muscle testing if you seem to fail over and over.

It may be that you are psychologically reversed to loosing the fat. If so you will sabotage your efforts subconsciously over and over.

If the muscle tester doesn't know about psychological reversal just ask him to tell you if yor body is lieing or not when you make the statements "I want to loose this fat" or "I don't want to loose this fat" (fat, weight, get healty, what ever words are right for you).

The body cannot lie and if you are psycologically reversed and you say you want to loose the fat your body will test weak. If you are not reversed you will test strong.

If you are reversed the EFT set up is a reversal process emofree.com

Many times weight gain can be to do with emotional issues or traumatic experiences. If you test weak saying "I want to loose weight" It likely a good idea to do some digging and healing.

"
Fat stores toxins (in humans too-some fat people can't loose weight cause if they did it would cause too much damage-they need to get healthy first). So poor quality fat-well you get lots of toxins.
"

This reminded me of a fat-loss question that has been bugging me. How long are the toxins stored for? If you don't lose the fat, I am guessing the toxins within just stay there, encapsulated, indefinately.
So when you lose that particular blob of lard - voila - toxins released?
Because - I have lost 20 kilos in the last 18 months or so and recently, driving in my car, minding my own business and suddenly had a taste in my mouth and feeling of faintness - the exact taste and feel of a drug I had been taking more than two years ago for a health problem.
I am convinced it was a release of a toxin (the drug) that I had been storing.
Could be so?

Toxins are not put in fat cells to be processed. They are put there because they cannot be processed. The bodies detox methods are not working well enough to take it out. Likely they are taking out lots but more is going in than it can handle and the rest gets shuttled into fat cells.

What you eat and how you live etc will determine how strong your detox systmes are and how much is going in.

When and if you are putting in less than your body can take out is the only time the fat cells can start to release the toxins they have been holding on to protect you.

Many people who start to get heal and start to get healthier can feel sysmptoms of detox which can range from nausea to fatique etc

flynn-I wouldn't be surprised though I have never heard of it like that. Something I will keep in mind. One reason I don't think that is common is because its all broken down (as best as possible) before getting shuttled into fat cells.

One thought that comes to mind is that when our detox systems are overloaded we get sensitive to toxins... things like the smell of gas a the gas station (petrol too lol) or head aches from smelling someone perfume...

I wonder if you were really sensitive to something in the med and where very aware of it... But I can't say if that is posssible or not. Makes sense to me.

This is a danger with people going on detoxes or cleanses. Their body can't handle the toxins and all of a sudden they get a flood. Actually anti-candida (yeast) diets etc should be approached with caution. The kidneys and liver etc may not be able to handle the flood.

People can get kidney infection if their kidneys are not strong enough to handle things when they do these extremes.

I'm a believer in anti-candida diets and quite frankly most women in our western world have yeast issues (and guys you can get from sex!). But going form unhealthy to a hard core candida type diet might be too much for the body to handle.

Some experts like that know what they are doing will do it WITH liver support and kidney supports programs that are tailored to the individual.

Another way is to start to get healthy and alot of detox will happen by itself though slower and safer. Once relatively healthy and eating foods that don't support yeast and fungus etc then a candida diet is much safer and easier to implement (also cause it is much stricter and you've taken a step instead of jumping in head first.

IMO&E (I have seen people go to the hospital due to going on a candida diet)

"In what is referred to as a breakthrough discovery, scientists from Auckland University’s Liggins Institute have discovered that genetic pre-disposition to obesity can be reversed through good nutrition in early childhood."

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2007/08/16/good-nutrition-can-overcome-bad-genes.aspx

ummm really? thats a break through... it is amazing how many people blame things on genes....

truth is most people don't operate near %50 of their genetic potential.

also they have done studies that show genes are turned on and off and wound and unwound etc when having different thoughts

Whats in the genes is the eating habits we teach our kids as much as actual genetics.

I think one of the best ways phill from a purely physical exercise point would be to do repeated sets of high intensity exercise. If you were training for a fight I think varying the times and recovery periods would be a good idea.

Ive noticed that 200 m runners also run 400m 100m etc in training. So on some days it would be beneficial to train for rounds longer than what youre rounds were going to be.

Cant remember who said it but another reason those endurance runners look emaciated is the type of muscle they have is very different from the type of muscle some one generally goes after in the gym. They have long and sinewey muscle not from their body eating the muscle (protein) but from their body developing the most efficient muscle type it can for endurance sport. The amount of energy coming from protein derived from muscle is very minimal.

Although some of us wernt really made for endurance running (australian aborigines seem well made) we also wernt really made to eat mac attacks and consume as much garbage and energy dense nutrient poor crap as we do.

Get more muscle on your frame too that has been shown too increase your basal metabolic rate.