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127394 : MASTER ???

GrahamHill
Posted: 2003-05-27 07:48:23
Master ???

Hi i was wondering if anyone could help clear up this point that is nagging at the back of my mind . I have just come back from training in Thailand , while i was there i trained with Apidee Sit Haroon (Excuse spelling ) recognised as the greatest Thai fighter ever to have lived by the king of Thailand, also i trained with various other Lumpinee champions. Now Apidee has been doing Thai for over 50 years now and has never heard of Master Sken, Master Toddy , Master Boon or any of the other masters , he has also in all his life never heard of a Thai boxer with title Master and could not understand why they would call themselves Masters ??? I asked all the Thai boxers i met and they all said the same thing ??? Forgive my Ignorance but can anyone explain to me what a Master is and why no one in Thailand has ever heard of it ??


Thanks for listening G
muaythaifly
Posted: 2003-05-27 08:29:01
LOL.

Come on Whacka lets have you back.
Paul Daniels
Posted: 2003-05-27 08:31:24
i thought you was whacka mtf?
muaythaifly
Posted: 2003-05-27 08:37:47
Thats strange Paul i thought you were David Copperfield.


Graham if hes not a master i bet he cant even grade somebody
XMIKE151X
Posted: 2003-05-27 08:41:35
lol,im Brian and so's my wife!
muaythaifly
Posted: 2003-05-27 08:43:06
Graham

how long you been doing Muay Thai what happened to the motor sport
Colin Payne
Posted: 2003-05-27 08:43:56
Well I suppose Master could be seen simply as a sign of respect. Personally myself I hate the term in any of the arts. Don't get me wrong it does apply to some, only very few (and I mean a few!). There are more 'masters' now it seems than ever. With no disrespect intended to anyone but they just don't measure up to me.

Paul Daniels
Posted: 2003-05-27 08:45:04
if I was David Copperfield i would have shagged Claudia Schiffer, now that would be magic.
127406 : Sorry Graham

Paul Daniels
Posted: 2003-05-27 08:47:14
I would like to hear more serious comments on this thread.
nobody
Posted: 2003-05-27 08:50:39
I was told that Khru was reserved for very very very few people.
muaythaifly
Posted: 2003-05-27 08:52:01
here here.

how many Masters give themself the title, oohhhhhhhhhhhhhh naughty naughty mtf.
Paul Daniels
Posted: 2003-05-27 08:55:53
lol
Yug
Posted: 2003-05-27 09:04:13
Kraitus mentions the rank in his intro to his book, "I am afraid that I am getting old so time is running short for me. I have no prospect of writing a complete manual of Muay Thai which has always been my ambition Panya. I will teach you all I know so that you could pass it on to the others ..." Supreme Master Ket Sriyapai, 1978.

But I don't know who decides or awards the rank, you can see lots of references to 'Master' suchaperson if you search but how many of them actually are I have no idea.
GrahamHill
Posted: 2003-05-27 09:11:19
So it just something that was invented for us Westerners ??? As far as the Thai people are concerned there is no such thing , the same as grading ?? The Thai people dont even know what this is ??? Is this something that was invented for the Western people ?? Cos in Thailand nobody even old Apidee does not have a grade ???

Tell me more guys
Paul Daniels
Posted: 2003-05-27 09:14:55
i must be able to kick his arse then because i have a yellow belt
Yug
Posted: 2003-05-27 09:17:16
Belt?

I think the armband grading system is more of a western thing, for those who want to be able to aim for something but who don't want to be fighters. But I am not the best person to be commenting on this, I've not been around that long.
Rob
Posted: 2003-05-27 09:20:27
Armbands,belts ,gradings are all western ideas.The Thais train and fight and work there way towards one of the stadium titles.
unicorn
Posted: 2003-05-27 09:31:23
Well, maybe all the masters should have a shouter. A shouter is a device which amplifies one's voice up to thunder intensity, so that when he speaks all the humans can hear.

:P :P :P
Rob
Posted: 2003-05-27 09:33:37
lol
vinnie mcwilliams
Posted: 2003-05-27 09:41:08
the grading system we have adopted for thai boxing is not unlike that of the karate or tae kwon do but instead of using belts we use armbands. it was developed so that the people who trained in thai boxing had something to show for all their training and personally i think it was a great idea. as for master sken, he is a MASTER because he truelly deserves to be. apart from his masterful skills as a muay thai boxer, he is also responsable for bringing muay thai to our shores and for that we should be greatful. plus would you like to tell MASTER sken that he wasnt actually a MASTER........I THINK NOT.
vinnie mcwilliams
Posted: 2003-05-27 09:43:36
the grading system we have adopted for thai boxing is not unlike that of the karate or tae kwon do but instead of using belts we use armbands. it was developed so that the people who trained in thai boxing had something to show for all their training and personally i think it was a great idea. as for master sken, he is a MASTER because he truelly deserves to be. apart from his masterful skills as a muay thai boxer, he is also responsable for bringing muay thai to our shores and for that we should be greatful. plus would you like to tell MASTER sken that he wasnt actually a MASTER........I THINK NOT.
muaythaifly
Posted: 2003-05-27 09:47:27
Listen

Theres no gradings arm bands brown belts la coste belts etc etc its made up to take your money.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh naughty naughty again mtf.


Master Sken MTF says your not a real master there you go "Mc Arse licker"
vinnie mcwilliams
Posted: 2003-05-27 09:47:41
master chokechaichana krutsuwan PIMU is situated in thailand and he indeed calls himself a master.
Rob
Posted: 2003-05-27 09:50:21
Lol naughty mtf
muaythaifly
Posted: 2003-05-27 09:50:35
Paul Daniels

As been called baiter what grade is that.
Paul Daniels
Posted: 2003-05-27 09:51:09
he gonna kick yo arse now mtf
Paul Daniels
Posted: 2003-05-27 09:51:12
he gonna kick yo arse now mtf
muaythaifly
Posted: 2003-05-27 10:05:33
Soz

Paul your ace really

muaythaifly
Posted: 2003-05-27 10:13:07
Paul


please not the wand not the wand !!!!!
Paul Daniels
Posted: 2003-05-27 10:13:18
what have I missed?
GrahamHill
Posted: 2003-05-27 10:30:56
Master Sken , Master this is a title he has invented for himself , the guy has never even had a Thai fight ????
muaythaifly
Posted: 2003-05-27 10:47:53
ooppppppss

Taboo subject LOL.

McMad press up is due out of bed anytime get ready for thunder Graham
GrahamHill
Posted: 2003-05-27 10:54:57
No offence intended for anyone hear but its like me going to Thailand teaching Football after never playing a match and calling myself Graham Hill Jedi of football ?? In this country i would get laughed at . I hereby declare that all Thai boxers all over the world should change there name to Master.
Muaythai King
Posted: 2003-05-27 11:01:17
True, the Thais dont know what grading is, as they dont use it. They train in Muaythai to put food on the table for their families not for trophies/belts etc. The grading system is really only in place to provide westerners who are not wanting to get in the ring with something to test themselves against & to show their progress & not to feel they are throwing their money down the drain.

You never hear any Muaythai fighters in the UK or anywhere else for that matter saying what grade they are. Fighters just set themselves targets for in the ring. For example fighters want to fight often, fight the best fighters in their weight division and for to win National & International titles. Also hopefullymake a few quid on the way.

The Thais think we westerners are mad for even getting into Muaythai full stop. They do it for a living, but when they see us westerners training hard, wanting to fight & travelling all the way to Thailand to do it etc they think we are mental. They feel why do we put ourselves at all that risk, when we probally all make a better living than the best fighters in Thailand.

They dont understand that the majority of us do it as a hobby/past time.

Personally i think gradings suck, not for me if i wanted fancy coloured belts/ties etc for kicking a bag or sometyhing so many times then i'd take up Karate or some crap like that!

As for Master Sken bringing Muaythai to the UK, wasn't it Master Toddy that did so first? Thats what i have heard, then there were a few others before Sken - maybe thats not true, just what i have heard/read.

These are just my opinions & things that i have heard/read!!

Thanks,

MTK

muaythaifly
Posted: 2003-05-27 11:23:56
MTK

Yes i think you are correct Toddy & Woody were here first & Bob
Slim_Strangy
Posted: 2003-05-27 11:45:40
Unfortunately I don't know what to believe anymore. I have heard so many different stories about what who has done and when and who was where and when. I am interested in the truth since Muay Thai is something I have put a lot of time and effort in to.

If anyone really does have any facts regarding the history of Thai Boxing in the UK and any of the issues discussed on this thread then please post them on here, cause I know pretty much noffin'!

Well done on chipping-off to Thailand for some training Graham, I look forward to cathing up with you later this evening to find out some training tips and hear about what you've learnt, you lucky git.

Cheers.
vinnie mcwilliams
Posted: 2003-05-27 14:55:01
master sken came over with toddy and woody, and before he came over he had at least 200 bouts undefeated.
vinnie mcwilliams
Posted: 2003-05-27 15:10:39
master sken is also called a MASTER because he studied for a masters degree in physical edjucation and muay thai in some thai university.
Yug
Posted: 2003-05-27 15:13:52
MTK, it's easy for someone of your age not to be interested in gradings, but for someone like myself who started late and might only ever have a very small number of fights or for those who don't want to get in the ring in the first place then gradings can give a sense of purpose and goals to aspire to.
muaythaifly
Posted: 2003-05-27 15:19:36
vinnie

Who told you he had 200 fights undefeated.

Thats one hell of fight record please reply.
Thor
Posted: 2003-05-27 15:42:28
Vinnie I have been training in Muay Thai for 28 years and have had 123 Muay Thai fights 91 wins. I stayed in Thailand for 17 years and studied in sports and science and attained my masters degree. This does not give me the right to call myself a Master of Muay Thai.Please can anyone answer the question how Sken Woody and Toddy etc became Masters. No disrespect these men have done a lot for Muay Thai but I think it is a simple Question that requiers a simple answer.
muaythaifly
Posted: 2003-05-27 15:51:12
Sandy

nevermind the other threads you should be able to answer this one please.
ercan gürgöze
Posted: 2003-05-27 15:53:24
oki when people are saying that there is no grading sytem in mt, they are right to some extent...there was no effective grading system in mt until a few years ago, it is sure...only most of the fighters have been wearing some arm rings in colors ...however, on the otherside it is also sure that the traditional staff liked this type of grading in order to know in hyerarchie ...

i think that it is a story for the promotion of mt for larger publicum...after especialy 1995's mt was forced to be promoted as a part of the thai culture and also aiming the o9lympics the thai government has thought that he has to do something in this direction...

why karate , taekwondo ,kngfu could be promoted better than the other fight disciplines, easy: "due to the belt systems, grading systems..."

it is also very sure that we cannot expect that all of the interested people in mt to fight hell in rounds...

in the beginning i was also against those grading systems and also against amateur mt...but, today i changed my mind and think that for the future promotion of mt in global world both are necessary...it is also sure that the amatuer and grading system are underestimated by the thai people and most of the profi fighters in thailand (the proof is simple ; the thai people are not going to watch the amateur fights / may be that one of the reason is the unavailability of gambling...) but it is also sure that the thai government adn sport authorities are thinking in a different way and trying to make mt known and accepted, followed by bigger interested publicum groups...and they have also right to some extent..

cheers,
Donald Boswell
Posted: 2003-05-27 16:21:41
Lets have some definitions laid out. For the people interested in the thread define as individuals.
1.Master
2.Arjan
There is another I think it's
.Khru Yai
.Khru

Only then can it be decided whether were on the same page or not.
Muaythai King
Posted: 2003-05-27 16:35:07
Yug -

If you read my post, i say that personally i dont care for the grading system. Though if you are interested in doing your grading syllabus along with competing in the ring then so be it, everyone to their own. Just said grading aint for me.

Anyway, what you mean my age? Hell i am coming up for 24, if i want to achieve big things then i better had get my finger out. You look at the likes of Keddle and others like him, they have done it all by the time they were 21'ish.

Saying that, my boyish good looks let me get away with my age....lol

Also, ain't Master Sken more known in Thailand for TKD rather than Muaythai??
Dave Jackson
Posted: 2003-05-27 16:45:13
I understand where everyone is coming from in this debate on both sides of the argument and I am in no way taking sides.

The fact remains that we live in the western world. If you teach a martial art in the western world, you need professional indemnity insurance otherwise you could find yourself in a situation where a student sues you for an injury he sustained during one of your classes.

There are very few insurance companies in the UK that will give this insurance (maybe 3 or 4) and they all want proof of your "grade"

This puts us in a situation where we have to grade, its a catch 22 situation, but we have to grade students that may eventually go out and teach.

As far as Masters Sken, Toddy and Woody are concerned, I always understood that the direct translation of "Arjan" was "Master" or "Senior" (as the Thais are very respectful of their peers and those of a higher standing in their society.
I dont really care what they did before they came here, I am grateful that I know of MT and it was beacuse of these men that I know of it. For that alone I am happy to continue to call them "Master" when I have the opportunity to speak to them. (I always do and always will)

Donald Boswell
Posted: 2003-05-27 16:49:43
Four words two languages??????????
Come on gents that have commented, give me some definitions. How can we give a personal opinion with out them.
Sawtanang
Posted: 2003-05-27 17:26:02
TO call a teacher in Thailand by respect you should call him Ajarn ,.....
Depending on age... Usually a ajarn is almost always a retired fighter past about 35...

You can also call a Thai By Khru.... example Khru Shawn..
Khru are younger but have enough experience to teach.

Ajarn's direct translation means Teacher. Nothing big or extravigant like Master or Admril. its not a rank really just a postion.

Khru's direct translation is instructor. when i tought English I always told them i was Khru Shawn not ajarn. Because im not old.
Sawtanang
Posted: 2003-05-27 17:28:00
Khru Yai means Principal at Thai school's.
Donald Boswell
Posted: 2003-05-27 18:35:55
Thanks Sawtanang, as you speak Thai. Three of the words are Thai, one is English. Why would a Thai in his own Country, using his own language, use an English word to discribe anyone. This is really a no brainer.

Master is an English term of respect that could mean many things. Untill we hear the personal definitions on the word by the posters it could mean anything at all.

Maybe these will ring a bell to the English speaking (ding dong). Master Chef, Master Electritian, Master Baker, Master Plumber, Master Craftsman is some cases Masterbator, and you know who you are. Ha!

Think do the Cinese traditionally call their teacher Sifu, or do they call them an English word. I mean in China.Or maybe they call his wife Mrs. Master instead of Simo.Ha!

Exchange the country with one of your choice as they all have a term to mean Teacher.

Or maybe better yet when someone moves to a new Country maybe they should use the tounge of their mother country and go around using terms no one knows. Duh!

Donald Boswell
Posted: 2003-05-27 18:43:28
I was wondering how many people would have defined the 3 Thai words the same as Sawtanang. Many! maybe but also maybe not. This is to me why some points are so subjective. What a word means to one is not nessisarily the same to another. But that usually never stops people from moving past that and taking a stand on one side first.
Sawtanang
Posted: 2003-05-27 18:50:34
Actually i'm surprised that Thai boxing doesnt have a Status of rank as far as Teachers... (i dont mean belt system)

Since Thailand is very much a "class" country

ie (he's more rich than you so show respect)

But than again The poor class is more down to earth.
Sid Remmer
Posted: 2003-05-27 19:18:00
So was Master Sken meant to translate from Teacher Sken, or is it due to his degree?

And where's Sandy when you want him?

Hey Donald, Sawtanang's translation is perfect. No ambiguity and no need for deconstructionalism!
Khun Kao
Posted: 2003-05-27 20:31:59
Interesting topic guys. I've had this same discussion with varying people on countless occassions. I'd like to add my $.02

First off, in regards to "rank" in Muay Thai, many different schools employ different methods and criteria for grading or ranking their students and fighters. My understanding is that this phenomena occurs mostly outside of Thailand. One of the main reasons for this is that opportunities to fight are not as readily available outside of Thailand where the whole fight culture is built into their society.

As others have said, outside of Thailand, the ranking structure is a means for teachers and students to mark their progress. The ranking structure varies from school to school, organization to organization.

The only UNIVERSALLY RECOGNIZED ranking structure is your fight record. Period. When it really boils down to it, all anyone truly cares about is:

1. Have you fought?

2. What is your record?

3. Who have you fought/beaten?

4. Have you won any titles?

That really about covers it. My Muay Thai program offers a ranking structure which (THANKFULLY!) my students don't really seem greatly interested in. I think that one of the reasons why none of my students are interested in earning rank is because I advise them that outside of our school (and affiliated schools) our ranking means squat! If my students were to go to another Muay Thai program and advise them that they have earned such-n-such armband or certifcate under my or my instructors Muay Thai program, no one will give a damn. Their skill will be determined quite simply...

"Glove up!"

Now, when it comes to terms such as Master, Kru, Ajarn, etc....

My instructors, Kumron "K" Vaitayanonta and Bumrong "Danny" Prawatsrichai are both referred to as "Master" here in the USA. This is a title of respect. Neither of these instructors took the title for themselves. Instead, students fo theirs and other martial artists have made a practice of addressing them with these honorific titles, causing them to "stick". They are now known as Master K and Master Danny.

Now, my understanding of the Thai language comes from Master K and his daughter, Palerut Bodhiprasart. They have explained to me that the difference between the titles "Ajarn" and "Kru" is this...

"Ajarn" is the FORMAL way of addressing an instructor

"Kru" is the INFORMAL way of addressing an instructor

If you were a student of any subject (including Muay Thai), you would refer to your instructor as "Kru". This is because you directly associate with this instructor on an often personal level.

However, another instructor who you do not directly associate or train with would be referred to as "Ajarn".

How does this relate to Muay Thai?

The example given to me by Palerut is that because I have trained under Master K for years and years on a personal level, I could and would correctly refer to him as Kru Kumron, or Kru K.

However, someone who is new to training with us would refer to Master K as either Ajarn Kumron, or Ajarn K. This would continue until that relationship or bond between teacher and student has been formed.

Now, in English, when we are addressing our Martial Arts instructors, we don't often make a real distinction. We refer to our instructors as "Master". Whether we are using the FORMAL or INFORMAL. Hence, Master K, Master Danny, Master Sken, Master Toddy, Master Woody, Master Chai, Master Vut, Master Sem, etc. etc. etc. etc....

Another example would be in the college setting. In your regular university classes, the teacher of your class would be referred to as "Kru". The Deans of the university would be referred to as "Ajarn".

Well, I hope this has been helpful. I realize that this is not the final word on the topic, but this is merely one way that the actual Thai's view the distinction. I also know that the above is not the only interpretation of the distinction.

Khun Kao
Sandy Holt
Posted: 2003-05-27 22:01:55
type the word
Master
in the SEARCH Topics!
scottya
Posted: 2003-05-27 22:09:58
i did that sandy & your name didnt come up lol
Felix
Posted: 2003-05-27 22:19:05
i was hoping to see pictures of knockers. which one has them? who was the topic starter?
Sandy Holt
Posted: 2003-05-27 22:28:23
:p
:)
Donald Boswell
Posted: 2003-05-27 22:41:42
Thanks a bunch Sawtanahg and Khun Kao. Hey Sid is seems we already have two dirrerent definitions to a degree. I,m sure both are right, which was my point. I like you think Sawwatangs was right, do'nt read any indistinction into it that was'nt there. There will be other definitions that will vary to changing degrees. The same can be said for the term Master.

One of the first steps in clear consice communication is leveling the feild as far as terminology goes. Many times IMO people can be closer to actualy saying the same things but due to a differance in perception they can be easy to argue.
Khun Kao, thanks for the definition of Master also, I will add my own.

Master - A person that is held in the highest regard by many respected peers in their chosen feild.

matman
Posted: 2003-05-28 01:33:43
Have any of you trained with or been to seminars with Surachai Sirisute? He refers to himself as Ajarn Chai but students usually use Ajarn and Master interchangably. Translation between languages is never a direct thing so you are really trying to find two words that discribe more or less the same concept. Does translating Ajarn as 'teacher' discribe the same concept. I would suggest that the amount of status and respect given to a 'teacher' in asian cultures would be very different to that given to teachers in western societies (unless your school experiences were all very different to mine!). So if you a going to give someone a title with 'maximum respect' in english, master is as good as any. I guess a lot of it also comes from us all watching too many Kung Fu movies + the fact that most of people who train in MT have trained in other traditional Japanese/Korean/Chinese arts previously! However people taking this 'title' on themselves is a problem as there is no Master entrance exam!

In terms of the grading thing, I dont have a problem with it. I think everyone knows that your fighting record is the true measure of ability but I think gradings are useful to help people to that level. At my gym you have to pass a "warrant of fighting" test before you can train in the fighters class. This makes sure that your skills and fitness are up to scratch and I think that it is a sensible move as far as making sure that you aren't feeding people to the sharks without being able to defend themselves.

So you can call yourself "Master" if you have a masters degree? Cool! From now on you must all refer to me as "Master Matman"! LOL!

Yug
Posted: 2003-05-28 02:14:50
MTK, mate you've already done pretty well you young whippersnapper you.

I think we've had this argument before and I think the same people are trying to start it again.

Some people believe Sken to have done great things for MT especially in the UK, others think he's a TKD fake. We've all decided which side of the fence we're on. Also it's a little academic in the end. You have to ask, what does YOUR teacher teach to you? Mine teaches me Muay Thai. I know this by comparing what I do to other muay thai teachers and students both here in the UK and in Thailand.

As to the term 'Master', this has been defined well in the last few posts, Donald/Khun Kao.

With regards to grading, let's not get hung up about it, it's something you can do if you want/need a goal that isn't competing, but it is not compulsory, many people train for years and become very proficient without bothering to grade at all.
GrahamHill
Posted: 2003-05-28 02:20:36
Thanks guys you have cleared up a few things for me, however i can conclude that i personally will never be referring to anyone as Master , and i have never heard of anyone obtaining the title after achieving a degree LOL. Also i find it impossible to believe that Mr Sken has had over 200 hundred undefeated Thai fights and that not a single boxer i spoke to in Thailand has ever heard of him ????? Or the other Masters ?? does not this strike you all as a little odd. I throw down the challenge to anyone who can produce some evidence that Sken has ever had a single fight in his life. It is irrelevant if you are a good teacher it does not matter if you have ever fought in my opinion but to profess you have had over 200 fights strikes me as a little odd ?????? I guess they were all in Thailand ?????? If so why has nobody heard of him ??????

Thanks for listening
Dave Jackson
Posted: 2003-05-28 02:23:58
Graham, what was Master Skens fighting name?
Mark L.
Posted: 2003-05-28 02:56:17
"Now Apidee has been doing Thai for over 50 years "

sorry I just think thats funny.

Thats like saying hes been doing German for over 50 years. :) I think we all understand though. :)

I have been told MuayThai doesn't use 'Ajan' just Kru.

I think the advent of 'Ajan' comes from over seas and people copying MA as they all use(or at least in English we translate as..don't want to asume) Master.

Ajan I think better translates as teacher than master although it is a 'higher' teacher. I think if I was to tutor math to some kid I would be Kru(how good my math skills are would be irelivant. I am a teacher. Someone who has gone to university to become a math teacher would be 'Ajan'.

These days they have instructor courses and you can become an 'Ajan' or Kru etc.

What does it mean and what should it mean....who knows.

To many people just start calling themselves Ajan and then there are courses etc...if that really makes you one or not though I am not sure.

The tricky think with Thai culture is they don't correct you when you are wrong. So if you call someone Ajan and they aren't really they may not say anything.

Just like there are different ways to say 'you'. monks for example should be reffered to differently than your friend. I used the wrong 'you' with Pra Ajan Thaam, a friend of mine(a monk), for a long time and was never told by him or anyone that I wasn't adressing him politely.

My point is I think it is sometimes hard to really know what is going on or what is 'proper'.

I have heard many Muay instructors in Thailand called 'Ajan' but I don't know why. At Rangsit for example(The World MuayThai Institue) there were loads of them. Khun Suk and I went with a bunch of exchamps to a b-day party. Guys in their 60s etc Some of them instructors at the school all old former champs.

I think age could be a factor too. A 60 year old thats been in MuayThai since he was 6 could be called Ajan. Then there are people who get degrees in PE including MuayThai and then there are those that have formally thought it for years and years and now the courses they have to become and instructor.

Basically with MuayThai I think the courses should be to be Kru. If you've been a Kru for 30(just a number) years then Ajan. Thats what I think is fair enough. Its simply showing respect to there years and knowlage gained as a teach.

I haven't read all the posts on here yet(bed time) If anyonme knows otherwise please tell me I'm mistaken.
muaythaifly
Posted: 2003-05-28 02:57:11
Dave J.

You or Sandy tell all of us his fighting name ?????

Vinnie McWiliams who told you 200 fights no defeats please tell us your source.

Ive never known Sandy as quiet.
Dave Jackson
Posted: 2003-05-28 03:03:02
MTF, I dont know it. Thats why I asked!
Mark L.
Posted: 2003-05-28 03:04:36
Sawtanang said it well...

just read up on most of the posts...of to bed...
alfie
Posted: 2003-05-28 03:05:38
Maybe if you gave people there full Thai name not the nick name people would know who they where.
Rob
Posted: 2003-05-28 03:09:19
Maybe not! It would be the fight name that would be recognized here
Dave Jackson
Posted: 2003-05-28 03:11:17
Thats why I thought Graham would know it. If he has been asking around in Thailand, then he must have his fighting name otherwise it would have been a waste of time.

When a Thai team came here a few years ago, one of my fighters was to fight one of them. I was given his name but when I asked around in Thailand, nobody had ever heard of him. The reason for this was that I was given his real name and not his fight name and nobody had ever heard of his real name even though he was a very well known Thai Boxer.



muaythaifly
Posted: 2003-05-28 03:15:34
Rob
Spot on but if a guy was 200/0 you would know his mothers name LOL.



Dave J i thought you were going to tell us and shock us that his nickname was Pud Pad Lek.
Rob
Posted: 2003-05-28 03:20:17
I can't believe it is possible for anyone anywhere to be 200/0 let alone Thailand.
muaythaifly
Posted: 2003-05-28 03:26:46
Rob

But on a earlier thread about 1 year ago he was 230/0 so where getting there.


















Dave Jackson
Posted: 2003-05-28 03:26:57
Back to the topic!

I took a couple of fighters to Hong Kong a few years ago. When we were due to return, the promoter handed us a magazine. There were some pictures of us with the movie star Carter wong in it with the title "Master Dave Jackson and Master Carter Wong"

It really made me cringe when I saw it, but again the people over there probably saw it as a respectful thing to put. ??

AndyC
Posted: 2003-05-28 03:27:14
Did Master Sken actually claim that fight record himself ?
muaythaifly
Posted: 2003-05-28 03:31:44
Dave J

You loved it really LOL how much did you pay the printer "just curious"

Master Muaythaifly yep got a ring to it i will pay 50p tops
Yug
Posted: 2003-05-28 03:34:19
Sandy won't be up yet by the way. He's a night owl.
Dave Jackson
Posted: 2003-05-28 03:35:28
I didnt, honest...I left my Masters title planted firmly in Hong Kong soil!
muaythaifly
Posted: 2003-05-28 03:43:15
Dave J

I once seen in a mag Master Andy Mayo ?????
Dave Jackson
Posted: 2003-05-28 03:46:11
Magazine culture in the late seventies aso had a lot to do with the term Master. It was full of Masters of Kung Fu and the Shaolin Arts. When Toddy, Sken and Woddy came over they would have automatically been "tagged" with the title "Master" by the likes of Combat Magazine.
muaythaifly
Posted: 2003-05-28 03:54:47
Dave J

It was Combat about 1985 but they said he was a MT & KB Master.
Dave Jackson
Posted: 2003-05-28 04:01:08
I still dont see the harm in it when it is given to the likes of Toddy, Sken, Woody, Chana etc.
It is respectful more than anything
vinnie mcwilliams
Posted: 2003-05-28 04:03:03
to rite it is
Colin Payne
Posted: 2003-05-28 04:06:58
MTF - To be fair to Andy Mayo, I'm sure that Andy would not have addressed himself as 'Master', it was probably again one of the magazines.

A couple of years ago, I taught on a multi style seminar and there were one or two people on there called 'master'. When the publicity poster was sent round and I noticed that they had put the title 'master' in front of all the names, including mine! Very, very embarrasing. (I haven't mastered the video machine, never mind anything else!).... However it gave my wife something to laugh at, she took the piss rotten!..
muaythaifly
Posted: 2003-05-28 04:15:33
Vinnie

Answer the question please who told you 200/0 fight record
GrahamHill
Posted: 2003-05-28 05:24:34
I think i may have accidentally open up a can of worms here so im gonna leave this one there is no conclusion except that i have had 3000 Thai fights won them all in a strange place in THailand called yyyyyyyiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnggg yhhhhaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaa hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaa but no one in Thailand will of heard of me , my fight name was fat elephant and from now on im going to introduce myself to everyone i meet as Master .

Thanks dudes i did not mean to get you all so fired up , ignorance is bliss i guess

Much respect in Muay Thai and life to you all

Thanks Graham
muaythaifly
Posted: 2003-05-28 05:29:31
Graham

Pumpui Chang LOL.

Your a true Master great thread keep them coming.
Thor
Posted: 2003-05-28 06:38:06
Muaythaifly

Good to see a bit of coulor back on the board it was getting a bit dull. You ask questions that need answering.Do you Know Master Kit ?

muaythaifly
Posted: 2003-05-28 07:21:47
Rings a bell ?????

I know Boon who was first named he knows nothing hes a travel agent and had private lessons by tony Moore.

Cheers Thor
Slim_Strangy
Posted: 2003-05-28 07:29:01
Hi Guys n Gals,

I think Master Kit was Master Skens brother, it was a while ago when I met him and just hope I'm referring to the correct person, so may need some confirmation on that. Anyone? The reason I met him is because I was moving to Milton Keynes and wanted somewhere to train and I believe at one point he had some classes there.

Sorry, that's all I got.
GrahamHill
Posted: 2003-05-28 08:27:28
Check out Mr Sken website whats the saying blowing your own Trumpet
muaythaifly
Posted: 2003-05-28 08:58:32
Graham & Thor


Do you think if he had 200 fights he might mention it 1 or a 1000 times !!!!!
Matt Pickering
Posted: 2003-05-28 09:00:48
i trained with sken, and i never noticed one picture of him in his fights on his wall at all. all thats there are pictures of others. never himself, but hey yeh, blowing his own trumpet seems accurate
GrahamHill
Posted: 2003-05-28 09:08:07
No pics cos he has never fought ever thought of that ??? He has never had a Thai fight
muaythaifly
Posted: 2003-05-28 09:12:18
I think the jury is back in with a guilty as follows-

Master Sken from being born to the present day you never have had a Muay Thai fight and you have been found guilty off fraud.

Your sentance will be you will have to regrade again with Sandy Holt.
GrahamHill
Posted: 2003-05-28 09:17:54
Good one Muay THai Fly Im with you on that one LOL so its not just me that is rattled about this issue.
Paul Daniels
Posted: 2003-05-28 09:24:59
I thought master kit was the car in knight rider
muaythaifly
Posted: 2003-05-28 09:27:17
Paul

i will let you into a secret im a ringer for David Hasselhoff also
127664 : BULLSHIT

vinnie mcwilliams
Posted: 2003-05-28 09:30:04
WHAT A LOAD OF BULLSHIT, IM NOT SAYING HE HASNT FAUGHT BUT EVEN SO, THERE IS NO REQUIREMENT TO HAVE FOUGHT TO BE CLASSED AS A MASTER. I WOULD BET MY LIFE ON MASTER SKEN KICKING BOTH YOUR ASS'S MTF AND GRAHAM HILL, AND ANYBODY IN BRITON FOR THAT MATTER. YOUR TOTAL LACK OF RESPECT ASTOUNDS ME.ITS GUYS LIKE YOU THAT BRING THE SPORT INTO DISREPUTE.
vinnie mcwilliams
Posted: 2003-05-28 09:36:11
sorry about the shouting but things had to be said.
muaythaifly
Posted: 2003-05-28 09:41:33
who told you 200/0 ive asked about 8 times now put up or shut up i think youll talking bull a little earwig who only hears half of any conversation.
Paul Daniels
Posted: 2003-05-28 09:43:59
just because you shout it dont make you right
muaythaifly
Posted: 2003-05-28 09:47:26
Vinnie

this thread is about people like you who are getting ripped of by these people.

Its called fraud.
muaythaifly
Posted: 2003-05-28 09:48:07
big 100 got it !!!!!

Now im a Master
vinnie mcwilliams
Posted: 2003-05-28 09:50:31
ripped off, no im getting pissed off with narrow minded c*@?%s like you.
vinnie mcwilliams
Posted: 2003-05-28 09:56:16
so you think sken isnt worthy of the title master. so you obviously think that his skills are'nt masterful. name me more people in briton that deserves that title more than sken.
GrahamHill
Posted: 2003-05-28 09:57:01
Boys boys boys Ignorance is bliss if he wants to believe all the hype about Master Sken etc then let him we are all entitled to our opinions. I have to say though i will be definately be changing my name to Master and i really would like to see some evidence of Mr Sken's fights

Calm down dudes its only a discussion no need to get all cross
Paul Daniels
Posted: 2003-05-28 09:58:48
Ken Bates
GrahamHill
Posted: 2003-05-28 09:58:55
I tell you what why dont they change there names to Jedi's of Muay Thai then everyone is happy
muaythaifly
Posted: 2003-05-28 10:02:22
McWilliams

Who told you 200 fights 200 wins ?????????
GrahamHill
Posted: 2003-05-28 10:07:25
200 fights 200 wins ??? I thought it was 3000 ??? I tell you what think of a number add your age then double it then multiply by 4 is that how they got that figure ????
muaythaifly
Posted: 2003-05-28 10:07:59
Got it Guys

Simple yes or No after you have told us who said he had 200 fights 200 wins.

Have you payed to attend a Seminar with Guru Sken before yes or no please


Come on Vinnie tell us all and take deep breaths please
GrahamHill
Posted: 2003-05-28 10:11:53
Yeah come on Vinnie im at work and if i keep looking at this site i will get my balls chopped off
muaythaifly
Posted: 2003-05-28 10:24:30
Graham

he will have gone home school finishes at 4pm
Satankid
Posted: 2003-05-28 10:30:48
Vinnie- there has been a whole thread on this before. it was called something like 'thai instructors in UK'. sken studied at the college of physical education and did not do MT but TKD. how do i know this? because i was told personally by the teachers who knew him and the students that he taught TKD to there. they all said he was a nice guy and a good TKD practitioner and teacher but had not been involved in MT in thailand.
muaythaifly
Posted: 2003-05-28 10:35:01
Satankid


wowwwwww thats unbelievable so where did he learn MT then if at all.
GrahamHill
Posted: 2003-05-28 10:35:38
Thanks Satankid you have cleared it all up in my mind and have answered my original questions thankyou for clearing up this confusion

Regards

Graham
Donald Boswell
Posted: 2003-05-28 15:09:47
So is the thread about the term Master and why it's not used in Thailand. Or is it an anti Sken post in disguise. Many good posts on an issue that seems to be an interest. Still two posters only on the anti Sken part.
Sawtanang
Posted: 2003-05-28 19:51:24
One more thing i would like to add..

If you call someone Master in english you r showing nothing but respect so its all good,

but if you were to call master sken .. ajarn sken... it wouldnt down grade him or insult him and imsure it wouldnt bother him. Besides im sure you wouldnt use the direct translation "teacher Sken" 'teacher Sken" i need some help... sounds odd.

As far as 200 fights.... wouldnt doubt it one bit , but 200 no loss, hard to beleivw.

Please understand it is so common for fighters to hit 200 fights.

On average most start at 8 or 9yrs old and by the time they are 16 have had 100+ fights.
unicorn
Posted: 2003-05-28 21:58:53
Here we go again ...

In my place best striking arts and sanshou coach is a guy who has such a physical constitution that he could never make for a decent fighter (short and pot-bellied) and he has walls of medals and cups of his men, including serious organization let alone he coaches for almost everything which strikes plus sanshou with ease and in my best dreams I would like to have his level as amateur coach. Maybe pro level coaches would benefit more of personal fighting experience but I still have serious doubts. Instead, one of the best fighters of early 90-s is such a stupid character that in his gym one learns to strike hook punches on pivot step (in legkick disciplines) which is in the best case suicidal let alone it is not a good way to start with circular strikes before one can use decent straight punches or exploit reach advantage etc etc etc.
This just because it happened that one of his favored techniques was hook punch and times were rather primitive technique-wise and no one had a lucky guess to chop his legs dead. Sounds familiar ?
Mark L.
Posted: 2003-05-28 23:23:43
-off topic a bit

Anyone can type Ajan or Ajarn anyway they want. Most seem to do Ajarn. For the record when it is said there is no 'r' sound. I think Ajan is closer phonetically(spel?). But if people want Ajarn so be it. Just a note there is no 'r' sound. in Thai it is spelt with an 'r' but the are is pronounced 'n'.
stevie
Posted: 2003-05-29 06:40:26
yug... im with you on this one as i too was trained by a master.
i was trained by master mike duffy and maybe you help me. im trying to get hold of a copy of the video when mike knocked out numphon in the lumpinee. i think sken dodd was on the same bill.

thanks
stevie lee
Brian Ritchie
Posted: 2003-05-29 12:41:38
Moderation note:
Please refrain from using insults directed toward anyone.
Also, please stick to the topic.

Sandy Holt
Posted: 2003-05-29 13:22:35
what took you Brian?
Brian Ritchie
Posted: 2003-05-29 13:34:01
The same thing that always "takes me".
I have a day job.
Donald Boswell
Posted: 2003-05-29 15:57:50
Ok so we have answered the question to define Master and why it is not used in Thailand. Using the definitions provided by the posters it is a concensis that indeed Master Sken is a deserving title.
Sid Remmer
Posted: 2003-05-29 19:46:49
For who he is and what hes done, i call Sken a master. Though as a kid, I thought there would only be 1 master/generation or 2. Perhaps we are all looking for heroes?
Mark L.
Posted: 2003-05-29 22:47:53
...and sometimes people are looking to be heros or at least want to be thought of that way...
Sandy Holt
Posted: 2003-06-12 22:54:27
ttt
yawn
Adonsagat
Posted: 2003-06-13 07:21:23
There was a posting on here a few weeks ago regarding, the 'Masters" of Muay Thai, and the apparent lack of existing rank in this art.

There is indeed a distinction, between, Kru (Instructor), Pochoi Khru (Assistant Ins),Ajahn, and Borom Ajahn. The correct translation for the word Ajahn is actually Professor, but I suspect many of the Thai Ajan, and Kru overseas simply use the term Master to denote what is comfortable to the foreign students.

Anyway, Ajahn is the term given to someone who has graduated fram a college or university, and has a certificate in physical education (regarding MuayThai).

In Thailand, there are a few well known Muay Thai Ajahn still around. There is Ajahn Pramot, from the gym Nongkee Pahuyuth, and Ajahn Pot from Muang Ubon. And then ther are some who have been given the term Grand Master, or Borom Ajahn for experience and quality of fighters, Kru Yodtong Sennanan form SidYodtong, and Kru Dang of Thammasat University.

I hope this sheds some light on the question, of "So called Masters"
Mark L.
Posted: 2003-06-13 07:46:42
What makes them 'Ajan' then?
Donald Boswell
Posted: 2003-06-13 14:17:37
The names Pajon, Somporn, Natchaphon, and Phosawat could be included too.
HAWKMAN
Posted: 2018-05-08 09:57:42
hmmm this is a bit of an old one.

But a goodie.

So if we think about famous Masters now - 15 years on from this thread - who are they? and who is legit , now that everyone has got over themselves with respect to having been seduced by over-exposure to Thai culture or rather their perception of Thai culture (and Muay Thai culture) as being idyllic, Utopian, beyond reproach,without sin?
Sponsor
ActionPromo's
Posted: 2018-05-11 10:55:06
Is there such a thing as the title of 'Master' in Muay Thai?
I reckon it's just a term being bastardised (been waiting a long time to use that word) by Westerners to highlight a senior coach.
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