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121868 : Muay Thai illegal throws

Jonathan Clark
Posted: 2003-04-27 09:44:46
Watching Herbie Hind box a few nights ago he threw a few illegal low blows. He was warned twice and the quite rightly had points deducted. How many times have I seen MT fighters (usually tired and losing) perform illegal hip throws, outer leg reaps/trips etc with the referee saying nothing? The most frustrating thing as a fighter is the fact that the crowd, often not well versed in the rules of MT will cheer for their man putting his opponent on the canvas.This gives the transgressor an important psychological advantage as well as the chance of injuring his opponent. He should be publicly warned and if he keeps it up ponts deducted. Why doesnt this happen? Any views?
Colin.H
Posted: 2003-04-27 10:10:38
Because some people don't know Thai boxing, they have their own interpretation of it.
Sandy Holt
Posted: 2003-04-27 11:40:49
Most REFS: i know up here DO call it ! and watn etc: and YEP it is wrong UNLESS throws have been agreed b4 hand ! BUT is rare in muay-thai bouts !
121915 : spel

Sandy Holt
Posted: 2003-04-27 11:42:55
Most REFS: i know up here DO call it ! and warn etc: and YEP it is wrong UNLESS throws have been agreed b4 hand ! BUT is rare in muay-thai bouts !
Years ago the B.T.B.C. did what was called "ALL STYLES" and throws WAS allowed ! So suit the ju-jitsu style kick-boxers V Thai-Boxers !
Col will remember about these too "!
Sid Remmer
Posted: 2003-04-27 12:35:17
BTBC scores kicks to the testicles as well!

Thats why its crucial that you (though i think its your trainers job) check the rules before the fight! All reputable sanctioning bodies list thier rules - and these differ from body to body - and should provide them to you if asked.

Muay Thai is a 'living', evolving sport and even in Thailand, the rules change with time. Especially regarding throws.
Sawtanang
Posted: 2003-04-27 15:02:26
As it is now,

in thailand , if you were to through someone to the left

you can stick out your left leg and with your upper nody strength through him over that leg.

You cannot sweep with that left leg but if its in a stationary position you can through him over it.
Sid Remmer
Posted: 2003-04-27 18:37:06
sounds like a judo move to me!
Sid Remmer
Posted: 2003-04-27 18:46:27
but as regards jon's comment - the thread!
yes, yes, yes. poor reffing kills the fight and wastes the fighters time in training. Up to the promoter to make sure qualified refs AND judges are hired.
Mark L.
Posted: 2003-04-27 22:23:18
People may not know but more specifically its the refs job in those instances.
Richie Hardcore
Posted: 2003-04-27 22:23:20
I totally agree, having been on the reciving end of leg sweeps, I think refs should call a fighter up.
Jonathan Clark
Posted: 2003-04-28 04:23:38
Mark I agree, although MT reffing is improving imeasurably there are still sanctioning bodies that employ KB judges in MT fights who arent aware of the throws available in MT. They either don`t let you perform legal throws, such as turns etc OR they look on with a slightly vacanty expression when illegal ones are performed! My problems with it are that you spend weeks learning to grapple well and then it al gets thrown out the window and you end up having a K1 style fight!

Also does anyone know if it scores if,in a europeam MT fight where knees to the head are illegal, one fighter is able to bring his opponents head down to a position where a head knee COULD be thrown? Some say yes others say no just work the body.

Sandy think i`ll have to fight up there more! Did you get my e-mail?

Sawatang do you mean from the inside of your leg to the outside?
Mark L.
Posted: 2003-04-28 04:55:26
Jonathan-good points on the reffing. A much larger point is the fighters safety when kickboxing refs are used for MuayThai.
crazyhorse
Posted: 2003-04-28 06:39:39
Why are hip throws illegal? Saying that they could cause injury is one of the craziest excuses I've ever heard! I mean, in a sport where you can knee people on the nose or kick them in the face, hip throws are deemed dangerous! I hate it when a local fighter performs an illegal technique or comes close with a kick and the home support cheers like a football crowd. I wonder how hard it is for the judges to put all that out of their minds and score the fight as THEY see it.

Grabbing the spine is oviously dangerous but I think that the reason its illegal is due to it being a spoiling technique - its used by people who are getting beat in the clinch in order to free themselves.

Jonathan -If you put your head down into a very dangerous position ( eg. to evade punches) it looks very bad to the judges and this will be reflected in the scorecards. Its also the same if you turn your back. It doesn't matter that your opponent didn't take advantage of the situation, the mere fact that your defence is poor will not look good at all!
Colin Payne
Posted: 2003-04-28 06:43:49
Just a comment... Sid writes 'Up to the promoter to make sure qualified refs AND judges are hired.'

Don't agree, promoters should not hire the officials, it's a conflict of interest. The sanctioning body, whoever they are, should appoint officials and I'm amazed that in this day and age promoters still have to find their own officials AND still have to pay a huge sanctioning fee to a 'governing body'

Just playing devils advocate, but that is something that has always bugged me, it certainly doesn't happen in boxing.

Mark L.
Posted: 2003-04-28 10:05:41
Colin is right. But because the promoters do get the refs etc then it also should be them that gets good ones etc.

crazyhourse-turning your back is an 8 count.
Sawtanang
Posted: 2003-04-28 15:28:48
Jonathan,

Ya, Not putting your foot behind his leg but more like stepping to the left and using your upper body strength to throw him over your inside leg.
122133 : Sweeps

mark
Posted: 2003-04-28 15:49:07
I am always amazed at how many people do not know what throws / dumps are legal and which ones are not. For example on a recent fight night a fight did a spear tackle and got told off for it (I am surprised he did not get a point off)as it is a very dangerous and illegal technique in Muay Thai.

But then he caught his opponents leg and kicked the other leg out from under him and was told off and he did it again and was told off again (even though this move is perfectly legal (I double checked this later on )- bear in mind this is not the "plough technique" that has been banned for being very dangerous).

Sweeps are generally legal.

The move that was talked of earlier "you can stick out your left leg and with your upper body strength through him over that leg" is not really the common judo move (can't remember the name) because in the judo move you also move the leg towards the body. Although both are legal.

Mark L - after doing your judging course you must have a better definition of what sweeps and dumps are legal could you post them or the site where they are available?

Mark L.
Posted: 2003-04-28 16:30:30
'sweeps' aren't legal. You must 'kick' the leg out.

Brian Ritchie
Posted: 2003-04-28 20:29:39
and you define a sweep as...

keeping one of your legs still while pushing or pulling their body over your leg? As opposed to you moving your leg in a kicking motion?
Mark L.
Posted: 2003-04-28 22:37:03
'sweeping' as opposed to 'kicking'

You can get away with a sweeping kick to a degree but you can't sweep. You are only allowed to 'kick'.
122244 : Definitions

mark
Posted: 2003-04-28 23:20:16
Hi Mark,

I think we are talking about the same thing but using slightly different terms. A sweep as far as I am concerned involves a kick while holding a leg or pushing them in the other direction.

Mark
Mark L.
Posted: 2003-04-28 23:36:52
Ok that could be called a sweep. What then would you call a sweep. :)
mark
Posted: 2003-04-28 23:56:19
My definition of a sweep is when you hold or push someone onto you kick and make them fall over or get "kicked to the ground".

What is your definition of a sweep?
Mark L.
Posted: 2003-04-29 00:01:49
'sweeping' out a leg or legs with a 'sweeping' motion not a 'kicking' motion :)

hehe sorry, I don't know how to explain it on paper
Mark L.
Posted: 2003-04-29 00:08:46
hooking with the heal. Using the side of the foot. Using the top of the foot but not kicking...sort of placing and then pulling/pushing(whatever) through
Colin.H
Posted: 2003-04-29 17:00:28
Sid.
The move that Sawtanang is talking about isn't a throw as such. It's off balancing your opponent over your standing leg.
This move is used also in Judo, it's called Sasi tsuri komi ashi.
It isn't a "throw" in judo either, it is a move in which the leg is used as a "prop" with which to turn the opponent. Sumo uses it as well.

Sandy.
I didn't know that "throws" were legal in the All-Styles fights of the BTBC?
I never recalled ever seeing/experiencing anything different about the rules between the BTBC and the BTBC All-Styles championships.
I'm aware that fighters from different styles had a go, but it was more of an 'open Thai boxing championship' than a different rule set.

The All-Styles titles were brought about to bring into the BTBC bossom the growing number of clubs that weren't members, like Sale West and Trojans (the BTBC was basically Sitnarong) and (most people outside the BTBC believed) to protect the BTBC championships for the 'in-house' fighters against some strong contenders.

It didn't matter anyway, nearly everyone in the early days used illegal throws. And the corners were cheering and banging the ring aprons in approval.

Sid.
Are you sure BTBC scores kicks to the groin. Is this Pre or Post Sken?
Do you mean push kick to the groin?
I wouldn't think Tony Moore is the type of guy to invent his own version of the rules for Thai Boxing.

Mark.
Here in the uk i can't remember how many times i've seen the ref gesture some kind of warning about throws (Mt legal) not being allowed. Why? I can't tell you? Sometimes i cringe at the various interpritations being put on the rules by officials.
Personally, when you see fighers who don't know the rules of the sport they are meant to be fighting, being referee'd by ref's who don't know the rules of the sport they are reffing, i sometimes think they deserve each other. Leave them alone and let them get on with it :-)

Colin.
Independance is something i've always said was required. Even if all the organisations agreed to go with that, then that would be a start. But then they make money from giving out qualifications so that ain't going to happen for a while.

What is a sweep?
Turning/off balancing your opponent over your leg is fine. If you assist the ‘throw’ by moving the leg in a motion that isn’t a kick (eg. drive the leg through) then it’s probably going to be a sweep.
Somewhere there is a line that defines how much drive of the leg makes something a kick. Danny Bille mastered the limits of legality with his often used technique.

Jonathan Clark
Posted: 2003-04-30 05:46:13
Crazy horse- I take your point about on the one hand being able to drop some one with an elbow so whats the harm in hip throwing, I think the safety issue is one of fighters not being prepare for a technique and therefore likley to sucumb to it. For example if a B class fight was takiong place and suddenly one guy threw an elbow it would in all probability land as the opponent wasn`t prepared to defend. The other day i was clinching with a guy that does NHB every time i turned him in a dump type throw he just kept hold and turned it into an ogoshi type hip throw. All fine and good but not the sport we were practising so I was completely unprepared for it. That`s how injuries occur.
mark
Posted: 2003-04-30 15:08:47
Cheers Mark L,

I know just what you mean now and to add to the confusion I would have called the move where you hook you foot behind someones leg / foot and push them over I would have called a takedown. But as you are leading the conversation we should stick with your definitions!!!!

Mark
122715 : warning! tangent in progress

tootslek
Posted: 2003-04-30 16:02:45
i haven't read the whole thread, so have probably got it wrong, as usual.

but on the issue of hiring referees and judges, is it up to promoter or sanctioning body............

I thought that was what folk paid sanctioning fees for!

I see why promoters shouldn't do it, as they may be biased.
IF the promoter has a fighter in the show.

But so many folk are fighter/coach/promoter AND the sanctioning body!

IS there a sanctioning body that doesn't have a personal interest in the result?

tootslek
Posted: 2003-04-30 16:05:15
i've been taught, that i can use my heel to smack into the back of someones calf muscle, and kill the leg.
i can do this as i turn so the fighter falls.

this is a strike, NOT a throw.

But if you wanna really throw them, make sure it looks more like a strike than a sweep.

it's all very confusing.
Mark L.
Posted: 2003-04-30 18:24:34
mark-I don't know about MY deffenitions-but some common ground for them would be great.


Sid Remmer
Posted: 2003-04-30 19:44:48
Collin
4 months ago I paid bob spour £20 for a two hour BTBC judging course/certificate. It was a well put together course and covered the obvious as well as giving info on scoring amateur bouts. I was pleased that the two hours and £20 had not seemed wasted. I was greatly surprised that the testicle kick was allowed and scored. Knees to the groin are not allowed, but kicks are! Punches aren't. In fact, I was more than surprised, I was gobsmacked. Anyway, I awaited the promised certificate. To this day and despite many phone calls, the certificate has not arrived. I wanted this certificate to add to the collection on my gym wall, and thats what I paid my £20 quid for. I have simply been ripped off (and for a triffling £20). Nobody else on the course recieved thier certificates either. We were told that Bob had to go to Thailand (?), that he was busy/on the other line, would call back etc. etc.
Well, I can live without the £20 quid, or the certificate. But I really do have it in 'black & white' that the testicle kick scores!

Funniest thing is, that when I told the fighters, they all seemed more than happy to fight under these rules (remember Jon?). I suppose the point is, that provided both combatants know and understand the rules, then its ok.
'Illegal' throws being allowed due to poor reffing is a different thing entirely.

Just for the record, I thought my fighters were totaly mad for being prepared to go and play ball kicking! But respect to them anyway.

I believe that there were ball-kicking specialists in the Lumpini rankings before the move was dissalowed. They must have complained bitterly at the change!
We never get the opportunity to fight at BTBC shows down here in Plymouth and
Mark L.
Posted: 2003-11-18 22:46:27
In Thailand Intentional knees to the groin are not allowed.


Good Thai cup on and who wants to kick the groin??
Dave Jackson
Posted: 2003-11-19 01:51:19
I went on a Sitnarong judging seminar hosted by Master Sken with a Thai official judge running the course. According to him it is allowed in Thailand too. Apparently a kick to the groin is defendable whereas a knee is not!
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Tony Hayes
Posted: 2003-11-19 04:33:35
I have a judging article written by Tony Myers on my website, it is as far as I aware fully up to date and includes pictures of illegal moves including throws.
A hip throw is not allowed and does not score at all, just as a sweep is not allowed, ie, a kick with the side of the foot delivered to the ankle or lower leg in order to take you opponent off balence!

You can view picures and have a read at www.warwickmuaythai.co.uk

Regards,
Tony Hayes.
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