thanks dynamo - i think alot of us are at a point where we will try anything to apease the shin pain god - hehe. hey another question - what do they put in the Thai Liniment that they sale over here, do they use it in Thailand, and does it work to heal the bodies bruises? well i guess that is actually 3 questions. also, i will relay the info on the canvas bags to the guy that owns the gym where i train - i has them all setting in the back, to many people complained about hurt shins. so he put all of the leather ones up front, will have to did them out - if only to see about hardening the skin over the shin. will let you know in a couple weeks about the results.