Thai Boxing Association of New Zealand

2nd Annual National Amateurs Championship

To All Interested Martial Arts Clubs of New Zealand

Saturday, 07 December 2002

Lower Hutt Town Hall
Lower Hutt

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We extend a warm invitation to all those Clubs interested in Thai Boxing who have active participants in the Ring.

As most of you already know, Thai Boxing is well established throughout New Zealand and is continually growing from year to year. The fighting standard and execution of good technique have improved in every region through consistent dedication of time and effort by instructors who are excited to see the opportunities being afforded our competitors.

The Thai Boxing Association of New Zealand is hosting the 2nd National Amateurs Championship. This event will be held at the Lower Hutt Town Hall in Lower Hutt on Saturday, 07 December.

Because of time constraints placed upon this event, the weight divisions will be restricted to the top eight competitors nominated within each weight division.

Nominations will be considered in the following order:

1) TBANZ Member nominee's fight record;
2) Other nominee's fight record;
3) Earliest nomination submitted of those with equal fight records (further statistics may be added later if fighting after being nominated);

PLEASE NOTE:

Only FULL contact Ring fights are considered towards fighters' records. Any inconsistencies with fight records as submitted will be considered in the final instance by the Event Director who has the full backing of the TBANZ to promote and coordinate all aspects of the National Championships for 2002.

To register any fighters from your Club for the National Championship, contact your Regional Directors or the TBANZ Secretary, Marcia Huso, email mhuso@paradise.net.nz - or, fax to 04 297 0987

Regional Directors

Auckland - Brett De Arth - 025 996 480
Wellington - Chris Samson - 021 150 5363
South Island - Geoff Aitken - 025 285 7215

Tournament Host and Event Director - Martin Stirling - 04 939 2503

SEE YOU THERE !!!

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NOTES

1. Cost for Clubs to enter competitors

Firstly, let us assure participants that some funding has been granted toward the National Amateur Championship. Therefore, any fighters traveling to the event will receive some reimbursement upon participating in the Nationals subject to total number of competitors involved . Reservations have already been made to assure comfortable lodgings.

2. Concerns that some fighters are not ready for 'National' level competitions

Regarding the less experienced fighters - there are plenty of spaces for reserve competitors in all divisions. If a weight division is not full, a reservist will be called upon to fill the void. Additionally, please remember the Nationals are OPEN for AMATEURS. This is your fighter(s) chance to compete against the best in New Zealand and set a goal that can be improved upon next year.

Juniors (16 and under) are invited to enter as well. We would like to encourage the younger competitors rising through the Clubs.

3. Concerns over competitors having three fights in one day

Regarding multiple fights on the same day - the first two elimination rounds will be with protective shin pads. Those who have competed in the Ring Time events will realise these do not protect the shins totally, but will take the brunt of the punishment.

The Finals on the Saturday Evening of the Nationals will be fought as FULL contact.


Note from M. Huso, Secretary - Please ensure all entries are submitted on the TBANZ registration form with details completed in full. These will be dated and passed on to the Event Coordinator.

4. Amateur Status

Amateur is as proscribed by Sports NZ and is open to any competitor that has NOT held or is holding any International title, Commonwealth, Olympic title etc. in Thai Boxing, Boxing, MMA or similar overseas related sport.

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Final Results of the 2001 TBANZ Nationals Amateur Championships Weight Divisions

Junior Flyweights
Rowan Samson (Samson Thai Boxing of New Plymouth) winner over Max Prossatov (Kapiti Thai Boxing of Paraparaumu)

Womens Featherweights
Catherine MacIver (Sitnarong of Christchurch) winner over Ngapera Parata (Alpha Thai Boxing of Porirua)

Junior Welterweights
Sonemano Vannathy (Freestyle of Porirua) winner over Glenn Fletcher (Bulldogs of Dannevirke)

Welterweights
Andrew Ford (Harley Thai Boxing of Masterton) winner over Mike Hauparoa (Alpha Thai Boxing of Porirua)

Middleweights
Vince Betham (VUW of Wellington) winner over Nathan Odering (Manawatu Martial Arts of Palmerston North)

Light Heavyweights
Larne Sweeny (Perry Thai Boxing of Wanganui) winner over Mike Borrell (He Toa of Petone)

Cruiserweights
Charlie Smiler (Kapiti Thai Boxing of Paraparaumu) winner over Dan Stirling (He Toa of Petone)

Heavyweights
Dion Crouch (Zero Tolerance of Napier) winner over Ryan Connolly (Sitnarong of Christchurch)

Super Heavyweights
Steve Maaka (Tuupuhi Kaha of Hastings) winner over Tristan Apikotoa (Balmoral Lee Gar of Auckland)

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Weight Divisions

Mini Flyweight (max 47.73 kg)
Junior Flyweight (max 48.99 kg)
Flyweight (max 50.80 kg)
Junior Bantamweight (max 52.16 kg)
Bantam Weight (max 53.52 kg)
Junior Feather Weight (max 55.34 kg)
Feather Weight (max 57.15 kg)
Junior Light Weight (max 58.97 kg)
Light Weight (max 61.24 kg)
Junior Welter Weight (max 63.50 kg)
Welter Weight (max 66.64 kg)
Junior Middle Weight (max 69.85 kg)
Middle Weight (max 71.58 kg)
Super Middle Weight (max 76.36 kg)
Light Heavy Weight (max 79.38 kg)
Super Light Weight (max 82.54 kg)
Cruiser Weight (max 86.18 kg)
Heavy Weight (max 95 kg)
Super Heavyweight (95 kg plus)

19 Weight divisons x 8 per division = 152 fighters

1st Round = 76 fights
2nd Round = 38 fights
finals = 19 fights

That's 133 fights at possiblly 3 rounds per fight = 399 rounds.

And thats only the Seniors?????? Plus you want junior's.

Dont you think this is rather silly & unrealistic for a 1 day compitition?
Not to mention really boaring for spectators, officials, & fighters.

Can i suggest that it would be more realistic to only have 4 fighters per weight division, even at that Number it would still be a hell of a long day, but at least it would be only 67 Senior fights, Plus junior's,

SOMETHING TO REALY THINK ABOUT GUY'S!!!!!!!!

A dour day in Napier...Highlander ??? Only in our wildest dreams could we hope your calculations would ever come true !! LOL

The reality is that, statistically, the event will follow the familiar 'S' curve with the mean deviation shifting towards the higher weight end to take into account our Polynesian component in our demographic makeup.

We are looking at similar numbers to last year spread over 9-12 divisions with a possible max of 5 fighters in any one division.

Last year it was stinking hot, highest temperature on record for that particular day, or something like it. What do you reckon this year will be freezing bloody cold?

More seriously though, will some of the weight divisions be lumped together based on the entrants, e.g. if there's 3 welterweights and one light welter will they be put together? Will the list of entrants be available before the event, or do you have to find out on the day who's in your class?

Cheers
Ben

Chiang

But what if in deed your wildest dreams do come true!!

Then you will in deed be in the shit & up the creek without a paddle so to speak, & things will indeed become a nightmare.

BenR.. whatever the temperature it will be a great atmosphere in the 'old' Town Hall. Love it when the 'fights' are held in those smaller venues like 'old ex picture theatres or town halls' with balconies and you're all crammed in.

..and yes, a list of entrants will be posted just like we do for 'RingTime'

Highlander.. you might be right, we starting to panic just a tad with the number of entrants already exceeding last years.

But if does become a nightmare, Highlander, I'll head out the front door turn left, turn right, head up the road for a 4 blocks, turn right into 'Sportman's Bar' and seek solace with owner/manager and my first sempai of 30 years ago, Wayne. No Problem, End of Nightmare.

Amateur Status

Amateur is as proscribed by Sports NZ and is open to any competitor that has NOT held or is holding any International title, Commonwealth, Olympic title etc. in Thai Boxing, Boxing, MMA or similar overseas related sport.

does this mean novice pros can enter? why aren't the olympics considered amateur?

Hi Guys,

You've got to question the definition of amateur status - Under this definition Mike Angove, Andrew Peck, Doug Viney and Possibly Ron Sefo could participate - as none have professional international titles ? But each are world class professionals and and fighting and winning at international level -this would not be fair to ture ameteur competitors.

I think we need to re think the definitions. Mind you the World Champs in Thailand are a bit of a joke at times as a number of well known pro fighters from Europe regulalrly compete in these events.

Thoughts any one ???

according to that definition world class amateurs [such as olympic gold medalists] are unwelcome while seasoned pros are welcome.

i guess david tua can go according to that definition, huh?

good point Mike. There should be a clear distinction between amatuer and pro.

First, let us take the Olympics in an attempt to clarify this confusion that seems to exist today over the word 'Amateur' as asked by Felix

AMATEURISM & THE OLYMPIC GAMES -... from AA Foundation Olympic Primer

Baron de Coubertin, founder of the modern Olympic Games, envisioned contests in which young men competed only for the love of sport without the promise of financial reward. A vision which was the basis for the concept of amateurism that governed Olympic eligibility for nearly 100 years.

It was a view rooted in the social milieu of the late 19th century, a time when only men of wealth could endure the expenses that accompanied a life of sport. In fact, early definitions of amateurism were based on distinctions of social class. Persons from lower economic classes were defined as non-amateurs.

But as sports became increasingly popular, people from a wider range of social classes participated and opportunities for profit appeared. These changes challenged the International Olympic Committee's strict definition of amateur status as the basis for Olympic eligibility. The most notable case of an athlete losing Olympic eligibility for violating the amateur code is that of 1912 gold medallist, Jim Thorpe, of the United States. Thorpe was stripped of his Olympic medals because he had earned a small amount of money playing semi-professional baseball two years before the 1912 Stockholm Games. Thorpe's medals were returned to his family by the IOC in 1982.

Avery Brundage, president of the International Olympic Committee from 1952-1972, was a fervent defender of amateurism. Brundage maintained that the high ideals of Olympism would be destroyed if athletes were allowed to profit from sport. He believed that commercialism would destroy higher motivations of fair play and moral development. One consequence of Brundage's policy, however, was that dishonesty and secret payments plagued the Olympic Games during his tenure.

After Brundage retired as IOC president, the IOC re-evaluated its position on amateurism. Realizing that its rules discriminated against athletes without wealth and that, in some countries, state-supported training made athletes de facto professionals, the IOC gradually eliminated "amateur" status as a condition for Olympic eligibility. The word amateur was finally removed from the Olympic Charter during the 1970s. The international federations governing individual Olympic sports were given responsibility for determining Olympic eligibility following the 1981 IOC Congress and Session at Baden-Baden, Germany. Since that time, an increasing number of federations have modified their rules to allow professionals to compete in the Games.

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Next, you should look at how various Government agencies may view a "Amateur Association" status, in particular, as they pertain to taxation, culpability of its members, especially as it applies to litigation, and endless other regulations and it's application to it's potential for liability should a breach occur.

More importantly perhaps is what criteria sporting bodies needs to be cognitive of to get access to the various funding agencies, this will very from country to country. Generally these issues and regulations apply to various sports association and NOT to individual athletes.

---------------------------------------------

So what are we're down to .... what each association defines as "amateur".

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Mike ... you right.

Mike Angove, Andrew Peck, Doug Viney and Ron Sefo could participate - none have won a international title to my knowledge.

The question is, would they want to... ?

What have they got to gain by competing against up and coming fighters ...?

They have made it to the 'next level', why risk injuries for what ... ?

The only injuries would be to the people they fought

i agree with highlander. peck would just bust up some 18 year olds. to suggest that he would avoid the tournament because of risk is a little silly.

you might be tempted to use examples like cuban boxers or russian hockey players but i'd be more careful in choosing relevant examples. as far as i know, NZL is quite different from communist countries.

perhaps you've done your homework on the origins of amateurism but the contemporary connotation is protection from
1) injury [hence the extra protection] and
2) professionals [hence the "been paid? stay home." restriction]

In spite of the obvious failiures / contradictions / cock up and changing face of world sport Ameteur status in Thai Kickboxing and Boxing for that matter should be ralatively easy to define given that we have a clear set of Ameteur and Professional Titles - for which the qualification is "getting paid to fight on the night: professional; or not getting paid to fight on the night: ameteur.

We have the opportunity (soon) to go to the Olympics or World Champs for Unpaid Ameteurs and the Opportunity to compete at the K1 or for a World Pro Title for paid professionals.

In short, the definition is very simple - lets not complicate it with a myriad of clauses, sub clauses and codicils which ultimately only leads to lawyers getting paid to find a way to circumnavigate page 14 paragraph 3 clauses 2 ammendment d.

PS Chaing you are right - none of us want to fight in the event. Bbut the point is we could if we choose to under the current rules which are a farce.

Hey what's the deal with the olympics? I've heard Muay thia will be an Olympic sport soon? Does anyone know anthing more about this?

Highlander, I'd agree with you.. but I know, you know that at least one, possibly two, are being groomed for greater glory. The only impediment to the fighter I'm thinking of is the short time he spends fighting in the ring. LOL

Felix & Mike

I'm sure we all rue the day the IOC dropped the term 'amateur' from it's glossary of definitions but we cant turn back the clock or stop the 'commercialisation of sport'. We ALL know how to work around 'non-payments' to a so-called amateur. By dropping this 'shamateurism' that existed previously, more energy can be concentrated on 'drug taking' and other enhancing techniques. Personally, I love to go back to the bygone age when the All Blacks were 'amateurs' and ruled supreme, ate red meat instead of pasta, but would we have the exciting game of rugby that's played today ??

Mike, your academic training coupled with you outstanding record in the ring ideally enables you to lead a didactic discussion on the pros and cons by setting out how you'd resolve this hoary old problem of amateurism v professionalism in attempt to define each definition ..yes !!

To start ...

am·a·teur

n.

- A person who engages in an art, science, study, or athletic activity as a pastime rather than as a profession.
- Sports. An athlete who has never accepted money, or who accepts money under restrictions specified by a regulatory body, for participating in a competition.
- One lacking the skill of a professional, as in an art.

adj.

- Of or performed by an amateur.
- Made up of amateurs: an amateur cast.
- Not professional; unskilful.

pro·fes·sion·al

n.

- A person following a profession, especially a learned profession.
- One who earns a living in a given or implied occupation: hired a professional to decorate the house.
- A skilled practitioner; an expert.

adj.

- Of, relating to, engaged in, or suitable for a profession: lawyers, doctors, and other professional people.
- Conforming to the standards of a profession: professional behaviour.
- Engaging in a given activity as a source of livelihood or as a career: a professional writer.
- Performed by persons receiving pay: professional football.
- Having or showing great skill; expert: a professional repair job.

chiang
Have you been eating dictionary's again?
or is it just A dour day on the kapiti coast?

chiang,

you must have some lax laws in NZL. if some kid entered an "amateur" tournament in the US and got hurt by a professional, you'd get your ass sued at best. at worst, the athletic commisions would outlaw that evil sport called muay thai.

does your insurance company know you allow pros to beat on amateurs?

mate there is no such thing in nz as promoters with insurance!
basicly anything goes at our fight nights!hehe any sanction,any rules, we make the rules!lol

yikes! sounds like someone skipping rope on thin ice.

so who is financially responsible for possible accidents. please don't say "the fighters sign waivers". any lawyer can get around that if a pro beats the hell out of an amateur.

Most promoters in NZ do make fighters sign indemnity forms against any loss or damages suffered.
And as for who is financially responsable, well we have a great organisation in NZ we call ACC (accident compensation corporation) who cover work & sports related accidents. But we do pay high premiums through our taxes.

Felix

ACC is an organisation set up by the government, it took away the right to sue for damages.
This means that everyone is covered for injury in NZ,

Some of us promoters go a little further with Public liability insurance i for one would not like to see someone get disabled in this sport let alone not have any financial support for their lives

It is only a matter of time until thai boxing and its competitors will have to be licensed and controlled by a govening body in NZ like most other countries

this kind of takes me back to my original question. if a pro hurts an amateur, will the ACC look for incompetence on the part of the promoter? or will they just pay the compensation without question?

How do you think we get so many tough fighters over here, you gotta be good to make it through.

After fighting NZ fighters the rest o the world are just a pack of pussys
However sometimes OZ comes up with a couple of goodies but the just can't take a beating and still fight hard like us KIWIS he he he

We enjoy the pain LOL

Sue

Jeeeeeeeeeesus,you opened up a can of worms here Felix.
Just for your info..The nationals is run by the Thai Boxing Association of New Zealand who's description of an amateur is...
" One who has never competed for a money prize,staked a bet,declared a wager or who has not knowingly or without protest competed against a professional for a prize of any description."
This is stated clearly in the constitution and in the TBANZ fighters cards,for those that bother to use them, and this is what we will adhere to.

Cheers,
Brett D'Arth.

now that is what i call a proper definition, brett.

as far as the can of worms, the world amateurs had guys like shakuta [world champion pros] fighting novices. crap like that makes me laugh whenever i hear the words "muay thai" and "olympics" spoken in the same sentence.

sue,
you must be tough if you're willing to put all your worldly possessions on the line to promote a fight. personally, i don't mind getting the daylights kick out of me but i do mind getting the dollars kicked out of me. i ain't that tough.

Thanks Brett, exactly what we needed. Good to know.

According to TBANZ, an Amature is someone who has never competed for prize money.
Very interesting as last year there was a K-1 Fighter & a Clash of the cruiserweights Fighter both fighting in the nationals. Both of which were paid to fight & recieved prize money prior to fighting in the TBA NATIONALS.

Please explain

obviously, there is confusion about the definition of an amateur so i'm not surprised that the "proper" definition is not "properly" enforced.

Good Evening Highlander, liked the word 'dour', heh ? It's yours, so Scottish, so..

However, what a revelation!! Fighters in last year TBANZ Nationals that have allegedly received cash directly for fighting before the TBA event !! Now that has cast a dark shadow over the whole event. I feel I need a little lithium to bring some sunshine to my night.

You sure it wasn't their trainer, manager, agent or coach getting reimbursed for travel expenses, meals, wraps, gas money, etc like it happens all the time when those little white envelopes that get handed out at the end of a fight night ?

If you are right Highlander, we need to stamp out this 'shamateurism' immediately by public condemnation. Let's name names ....

Now come on Chiang we dont need to Name Names...as we all know who i am talking about, and as it was not anything to do with them is would not be fair bringing there names into this discusion.

And as for those little white envolopes that get passed around at fight nights you are indeed correct as to there purpose, EXCEPT for when it comes to the little white envolopes that get given at the K-1 & Clash of the cruiserweights, We all fully undestand what those ones represent,
they are not just the $50 here & $50 there for gas, meals, raps etc, NO they are much more seriouse than that, and we all know what they represent.
DON'T WE CHIANG? But just in case you don't now, IT'S CALLED PRIZE MONEY!!!But of course i do know you know that.

But i know, that you know, that i know, that you know, what we are both talking about

Must be heading for another 'dour' day here & there. Now don't breat in to much of that lithium.

Hehehehe.. oh go on Highlander, I've never seen inside a K-1 envelope. Tell us what's inside one

Can't say i have ever seen inside one either Chiang, But i'm sure it's more than $50 bucks gas money, But i have seen inside one of the Cruiserweight clash envolopes & it was a fairly good sight & that was'nt even the winners one.

Touche...

=8-)

PS ..Say hi to Tanya for us. Tell her Amanda coming back from Portugral in the New Year to get married.

Touche...

=8-)

Can't say i get that one...

But i will pass on you're message to Tanya.

It has been nice talking to you this fine morning. have a lovely weekend, & not to much lithium.

hello

most 'real' pro's have had international amateur titles (e.g. South Pacific), so that cuts them out... amateurs with international titles are usually pretty good (e.g. Chris Johnson, Donaldson twins)...the other so-called 'pro's' (e.g. Cruiserweight Clash fighters) wouldn't cause true amateurs any problems...

I think TBANZ did a pretty good job with the Nationals last year...mind you, Highlander's 4 fighter limit is a good idea...and I think one-off fights (i.e. where there are only 2 fighters in a division) should be 5 rounds, not 3...I mean, its supposed to be the title of all national amateur titles...there should be no such thing as a 3 round title fight!....my only question is, will there be a Masters division?...so that Highlander and Chiang can take this into the ring and battle it out to see who indeed has the 'dourest' days, lol.

Big Call Vince

Clash of the cruiserweight fighters wouldn,t cause true amatuers real problems

I suppose that is easy to say when you don't weigh enough to ever find out against Mike Angove, Lance pearson, Jason tudor, peter aberdeen or any of the others and i would expect them to rightfully feel insulted by such a bullshit statement.

Who are these true amatuers, as i am looking for contestants for next years clash.

I thik we are starting to move away from the point - defining ameteur and professional fighters for the purposes of our nationals.

Vince - ameteur or professional status by and large does not define ability, there are some great ameteurs out there just there are some poor pro's. But I'm not sure its a good idea to genralise.

By the way good fight the other week in Auckland - you and hardcore went toe to toe - the result didn't really matter you'll both improve from it.

thanks Mike...apologies...i should have put - "SOME of the fighters" - before my statement on Cruiserweight Clash...i think you know that Dave..of course I don't mean Mike, Jason, Jamie etc from last year, who are awesome fighters and were right up there, amateur or pro...I meant some of the guys THIS year, not last year...if you think all the guys who fought this year are at pro level, well GOOD for you!!...that's MY opinion Dave, whether you're a world champ fighter, a club fighter like me (who in the past lost to this year's winner!), or just a fan, everyone can have an opinion!...as for whether i weigh enough, well i don't think i'll even justify that with a response (as he scoffs down some more BBQ, lol)...fa soifua

what a topic ay guys! I was told that ngakau was allowed to fight no problems at all (in the nats) by mr stirling only because he didn't hold an international title? I didn't understand this at all,I just pulled his name out cos I didn't think it would be fair to put ngakau in as he has fought on the k1 (and been paid an appearance money as they all do) and fought under pro rules in australia (shoot boxing) and fought in japan under vale tudo pro rules and recieved appearance money. where do we draw the line? it wouldn't be a good thing for him to get in there and ko some new up and comer would it?
Rexy

I think excluding former/current international title holders is better than excluding Pro's...because according to the above definition of Pro, then Ngakau and all Cruiserweight Clash fighters are technically Pro....in reality, all are top level amateurs and great fighters, but most are not yet fully fledged pro's such as yourself (which is the point I was trying to get at)...except maybe Ngakau and Peter Aberdeen, who have the skills and experience to maybe just fight pro now....so in my opinion I see nothing wrong with "Pro's", that have never had intn'l titles, being able to participate in the Nationals (which is what TBANZ is allowing anyway).

With regard to mismatches, well that all depends on who enters and how the organisers match everyone (which I think they'll try and do fairly anyway)...in theory, only experienced amateurs should be fighting for National titles...if Richie, Tala Fotu etc. were competing for the middleweight title, then those would be fair matches for Ngakau, not mismatches...all depends on who has entered.

My thoughts are that once you have received money you have crossed the bridge into a different realm. You have made a conscious decision to do so and should be considered professional.

Having received the benefits of getting paid to fight - you should from that point forgo the opportunity to compete/participate at an ameteur level (i.e. compete at the Ameteur world champs.)

No one forces you to make that choice - but once you have made it live with the consquences / or donate all the money you have received to charity.

If you are serious about your career mange it appropriately and make the right choices - and then be prepared to live by those choices. We can't afford to have flexibility in our rules other wise there is no point in having them - otherwise I may as well go out and groin kick and head butt in my next fight - just becasue it suits me at the time.

Accept the consequences of your decisions and get on with it. NZTBA clearly define your perameters and stick to them.( I think Brett outlined these earlier in the thread)

But it's still okay for them to fight co,s Chiang recons it was only Gas Money!!!
The promoters must have thought the fighters had arrived by super-sonic jets so thought they had better given them Shit loads of Gas money. lol-hehehe.

Hi Chiang....

Just noticed that you had Steve Maaka put down at the result from last year as winner over Tristam Apikotoa in the Super Heavyweight division.

Tristam won the decision, but he gave the trophy to Steve as a gift. Don't ask me why but it's the absolute truth.

Tristam told me that after he got the decision, he gave the trophy to Steve, because he only took the fight at short noticed. He felt that Steve was looking forward to it more and meant more to him. He only took the fight because he needed one, as he hadn't fought in a while. He didn't think he had lost. He said he only paced himself slowly and do just enought to win.

I hope you are not going to change the decision in history, only because Tristam gave the trophy to Steve as a gift. This will record down in record in years to come.

I only post this because I know that one day, TBANZ will be a well known organisation in years to come.

I too noticed this on the TBANZ news letter.
Why had Steve been put down as winner over Tristam?
I cornered for Steve that night along with Ed Karaitiana and saw Tristam give Steve his trophy well swap actually. But the decision was unanimous to Tristam.
Was there any reason why or was there just a typing mistake?

The Steve Maaka in that photo looks a lot like the fighter that fought Dan Nepia in Auckland under the name Steve Marner.

Hi Guys just thought I'd note - one thing that you can always be sure that someone is always watching and taking note of everything we say and do.

They say that wise men sit, wait, listen and digest information while the not so wise burst forth with their opinions sponteneously.

Lollo - is always watching and observing and always knows whats going on live on line - I guess that says something about wisdom, both ours and his.

Yes Tony that is the same Steve Maaka who fought Dan Nepia in Auckland.
as far as I know Steve has only ever fought under his name.
May be another Typo mistake?

Maaka / Marner sounds the same.

To Mike
Don't get me wrong I wasn't trying to Pee anyone off I am merely asking why had TBANZ officals put Steve as winner of the bout?
Was it a genuine mistake of was there more to it than just a misprint.
Can someone shed some light on the situation.....

....PLZ enlighten me....

waiting to be enlightened....... ;-)

Keri, awesome fight last week mate in Napier. First time I've seen you and I'm impressed man. Keep it up bro.

Hey Keri - apparently it was a great performance hopefully we'll get to see you up here soon.

I also agree with you about the NZTBA - I think we are all waiting to be enlightened. Hopefully it was a typo. (Not sure where the Peed Off thing comes in may be a mis read)

Thanks Lollo and Mike for the comments.
I am looking foward to the Nationals this year as a sholder re-construction kept me out of them this time last year.
I am still waiting to be enlightened...... ;-)

Well it looks like that was all sorted out then.

Since Ngakau can enter (but is too good for the tournament - not sure why you would try to enter a fighter in the first place if he is "too good" - maybe there is more to that story than meets the eye) and he fought in the K1 as a pro (unless the K1 has gone amatuer. And does not hold an international title (he is obviously to good for these as well).

Anyone can enter. Unless they are to good or don't want to.

So if you win the nationals it means that you are the best amatuer of those who entered who do not have an international title and who have not been paid to fight and who are not too good for the tournament.

Simple really. I learn alot reading the Ax...

Mind you reading the AX I would think that Mike Angove was a world class Pro Heavyweight rather than a Cruiserweight starting to make inroads into the top ranks.

Funny world really.

maybe you should read between the lines couch potatoe! keep doin those tae bo classes mate, you will be a fighter one day!
It wasn't that ngakau is too good to be in them ,I was saying that it is wrong for a fighter to be in the amatuer nationals when he had fought in the pro ranks! And was also just saying that now he has taken that "step up" to fighting pro,that he has to stay there and work his way up the ranks like every other fighter! Was I wrong?

maybe you should read between the lines couch potatoe! keep doin those tae bo classes mate, you will be a fighter one day!
It wasn't that ngakau is too good to be in them ,I was saying that it is wrong for a fighter to be in the amatuer nationals when he had fought in the pro ranks! And was also just saying that now he has taken that "step up" to fighting pro,that he has to stay there and work his way up the ranks like every other fighter! Was I wrong?
Rexy
ps kiss my ass- your probably martia huso aka glossolic just changed names!

I'm with Rex on this one - simple common sense and honesty really. Good on you mate.

In the meantime. I'll continue to nurse my super heavy weight ego bruised by the rather startlingly accurate assesment from couch potoatoeLOL

I totally agree with you guys that Pro's should stick to the Pro's..but there isn't a huge number of experienced fighters in NZ...take Oliver for example, he's only been in there a year and only had what, 3 or 4 fights? should he be banned from fighting simlarly experienced opponents at the Nationals and only fight Pro from now on because he was in the K-1?, i mean it's not his fault nobody wanted to fight him(i don;t know what his plans are)

hey Keri, I am sure Chiang wants to 'enlighten' you...and I'm sure all the NZ trainers are reading on here and have alot of views on this stuff, but they're not posting cos there are too many Kiwi's on Ax now, too political....."remember the day when you could post whatever you wanted and not have to worry?!", LOL

Im with you to on that one rexy, you tell em.

And with you to mike. You might not be a super heavyweight bro, But you can sure kick alot of there arses, Keep climbing bro, your one cruiserweight that will get there. Just like jason, your time will come two.

thanks for the support fellas! your right about Oliver vince! where do we draw the line?
I found in brisbane you get fighters fighting amatuer rules and pro rules (with elbows) and chopping and changing! Its all up to each individual fighter who they want to fight,whether it be a seasoned pro or an amatuer I suppose.( i think I just mixed myself up!) oh well I will just shut up guys!
ps leave me alone I had a few fights this year and took a few good knocks!lol

i still dont know why ngakau was in the k-1 max! he fought like crap!!!!!!!! he is nowhere near pro level never will be he does not have it proved when he fought aron boyes he got the can of whip ass!!!!!!!!! aron should have k.o. him it would have put him in his place and made the k1 that much better how come dixon did not get some else to be k1 max chris johnson, richie stewart,vince,prince amed,tala there r better amatuer fighters than him. i think he should go into this weekends nationals so we can see him get wasted by unknown amatuers or is rex a weeee bit worried that he might embarrass boonchu nz again dont blame him after k1 max you have to keep your pride up ay rex!!!!!!!!! is that why u want to be in next years k1 max nz to restore boonchu nz on sky tv???????? hahaha you must be pissed at ngakau and embarrassed well all know you are hot headed thats why you put your name forward not his..mmmmmmmm i feel sorry for ngakau!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

stop giving people a hard time when they have opinions on ax you are good at putting people down quickly. low blow about naming glossoholic do your home work before u accuse!!!!!!!!!!!!! Boohoo NZ how is that for a comeback that is all you do is cry and moan. i knew joining with Peters club FTA wouldnt work if only.

Ummm, yes.... well, thanks for sharing that rubbish with us all slinky. Very constructive.

Hopefully this won't develop into a pathetic slanging match but in support of Ngakau I'd like to share my humble opinion.

He is a very talented up and coming fighter - and he is at a professional level albeit just starting out on his professional career. He will only continue to get better. He actually fought very well against Arron Boyes, a seasoned capaigner, who has fought some of the best fighters in the world at Middle, Super Middle and Light Heavy. Ultimately experience rather than talent won through on the day. That level of experience can add the extra 5% necessary to control a fight, and at top level that slim margin is crucial. Ngakau, as a result of this year's experience will be a genuine threat at next years K1 max

Also the quality of fighters that Rex is producing (in a short time frame) is a testement to his training methods and dedication. He is one of the people responsible (among others) for lifting the standard of Mauy Thai in Wellington.

As to why the other fighters weren't there - rather than crticise Ngakau, which is pointless, those questions might be better posed to the Promoter. And I'm sure they would receive a fairly logical answer.

Incidentally I think Vince, Richard, Ngakau and co are fairly evenly matched -again the slimest margins would decide those match ups.

Slinky, your comments above didn't really deserve an answer but when you pointlessly criticise people who have got in to the ring and actually proved their talents- I cant help but wonder what personal agenda you might have.

Lets be constructive please.

I used to bite but i couln't care less.
YOu must obviously know who glossolic is then?

ps I was proud of ngakau for getting in there in and having a go. He actualy didn't get smashed he fought a good hard fight and thats all I can ask of my fighters. YOU CAN'T WIN THEM ALL SLINKY!

i only saw what u wrote in k-1 nz fighters thread. it looked plain and simple that you put your name forward for next years k-1 max i just thought u dont believe ngakau can do it next year ither that or u were embarrassed by how he fought that is how it looked to me or r u only joking???????? it is hard to tell with u. the thing is how the hell did you come up with the name to glossoholic??????????????? whats going on here?????????????????????

Can someone please give me exact details of the times for this weekend.
What time do the doors open, when are the first fights, etc. The Hutt News last night said that finals start at 6 pm, so I assume preliminaries are all earlier in the day. Is this correct?

Is there a set schedule for when each weight class will be on, e.g., cruiserweight prelims @ 4-4:30 pm, finals at 8 pm, or anything like that? Or will that have to wait until after the weigh in?

Kiss My Baby Smooth Ass Biarch!

Do we have to air our dirty laundry in public for the rest of the world to read!
New Zealand is getting a good reputation for fighting, don't spoil it!

Woahh...slinky the internet troll is back...Ngakau, last time I thought it might have been you playing games under aother name!, but not now...what did you do to this guy's girlfriend? lol

Yeah Rex, interesting about Pro's and where to draw the line etc...Queensland sounds like they have good fighters though, so maybe we're heading in the right direction, no fixed rules just every man for himself, lol...it was good to see quite a few amateurs at Dave's last show opting to use knee's to the head

Mind you guys, imagine if all NZ clubs decided to change to what Thailand used to be like...everyone starts off as Pro, and only fighting full Thai rules, 5X3's from their 1st fight onwards (easy for me to say, lol)...i wonder what impact that would have on the standard of NZ Muay Thai, now there's a thought!

Yo Vince, we'd all get a lot uglier a lot quicker! Rex good point about fighters choosing if they are amateur one day and pro the next.. I suppose to a degree it's up to a fighters sense of honour to make sure he is being matched against opponents who he is not going to walk all over, and up to his trainer/manager to make sure he is not getting thrown in the deep end.

As for Ngakau's loss, like Rex said, your a winner for just getting in their and giving it your best and you can't win them all (Ngakau taught me that damn him, ;)). At the end of the day it's just learning, sometimes you teach a lesson, sometimes you get taught a lesson.

Ps Ngakau, lets have a rematch early next year, Im pumped for it!

I had to withdraw from the Nationals today as I haven't fully recovered from my last fight less than three weeks ago.
Reinjured at training and not gettin any better
Oh well maybe next year........
AAAARRRRGGGGGGGGGGGG......
Good luck to all those fighting this weekend I'll be there watching and cheering for all the SuperHeavy-Weights.
Cathrin Vs Lee Anne again??? should be good if so only 3 rounds.

man I can't wait for this weekend! Lance pearson vs Billy Davies, mark spencer vs Andrew ford, and other big news is.......
THE ARCHE ANGEL IS BACK! SONE VANATHY WILL BE FIGHTING IN THE NATIONALS!
He is back!!!!!!!

Where did he go?

Good luck to organizers and fighters alike. Please keep us informed. Cheers

hey Richie, not sure, haven;t seen him for a few months, may have gone to Oz?, Awesome guy though and powerful fighter, go Sone! yes, best of luck to the organisers and fighters!
cheers
Vince

Cheers Vince. yeah dude he is wicked in the ring, Id like to see him rematch the donaldsons.

All I can say is "Wow"..high standard of fights, and every fight was explosive, so many wars! (wish I could have fought, but at the same time real glad i was just watching, lol)...congrats to everyone

and the Juniors (12-14 year olds)...only one word mate - SCARY!!...they looked like seasoned fighters...with these young fella's, when they grow up it's not "watch out NZ", it's "watch out World!"

the 12 year olds showed far superior muay thai skills than anyone on the nightI thought!
The judging and refing was pretty bad! Refing was actually the worst I have ever seen!there was no 8 counts applied when needed! Ben ahipene was good though(as a ref).can't say much for asterix!
strange how some judges where giving 9-8 rounds when it was a 10 point must system!(scoring). I watched the fights again on tape and there were some shocking decisions! oh well typical!
Felt really sorry for charlie smiler! he ko's his opponent in the last 10 seconds of the fight only to have the ref pick the guy up (not applying an 8 count) same thing happen to mark spencer! ford was down for the count and what did asterix do?picked him up! what a joke!

Was a good night of fight's,Lance's (Boonchu)son will be one to look out for in the furture,dissapionted in the way i fought but hey you cant win them all! next year maybe??????????

Anyone got full results to post?
Cheers

Has any one heard how Catherine is, real shamne seeing someone getting hurt that badly?

How did Lance from Boonchu do? I was picking him to win the middleweight division. Anyone got results? What's the deal with the Ref picking people up?!! Sounds crazy.

It's my job to keep track of the TBA titles so I will post the results as soon as I get the event report from the promoter.

I remember Shannon Wilson beat Lance from Boonchu on points in the final!

Can someone tell me what happened to catherine injury wise

To me the most interesting thing about the show was a fight where the trainer of a fighter also judged the fight!!!!!

He gave the fight to his fighter and used an interesting scoring method. What was worse was at least one other judge gave it to the wrong fighter as well (not sure if the fight concerned was a split decision or not).

The fighters were both fantastic sports. The fighter who was given the decision came up to the "loser" and said "you won that fight mate here is the trophy". The loser was too polite to accept and said "nah that's the way things go".

It goes to show the great character of people involved in the game even when mistakes happen.

Catherine Mciver (please forgive the spelling) fought Leanne Crouch in a rematch of a fight they had just 3 weeks ago. In the previous fight Catherine was a close winner. In the rematch Leanne showed how much focus and determination she has and went out harder than she has ever fought before and landed two whip kicks in a row to Catherines Ribs (breaking them). And winning the fight in the first round. Not to be out done Catherines first words were "I want a rematch". Immpressive!!!!!!

The fighters once again proved that perserverance, spirit and dedication can overcome any obstacle.

Mark

Agree with you Mark 10 point must system and Dion scores it 9-8 9-8 9-8 to his "boy"

The ref Chris forgot to count at least 3 times, mark spencer put His opponent on the ground and he just laid there while chris tried to get him up

Same with Dan Stirling and Sam

makes it really hard on the fighters when they have to face opponents and incompetance

Agree with you Mark 10 point must system and Dion scores it 9-8 9-8 9-8 to his "boy"

The ref Chris forgot to count at least 3 times, mark spencer put His opponent on the ground and he just laid there while chris tried to get him up

Same with Dan Stirling and Sam

makes it really hard on the fighters when they have to face opponents and incompetance

Which fight was judged by Dion?

Well what a fight night it was. I was sitting at the top of the hall and had some fighters talking in front of me. Sometimes they were speechless. I was shocked and appalled on a number of occasions. Here are my awards for the night

Worst decision

This was a close competition with the contestants being

Charlie Smiler Vs Dan Stirling
The young tall kid from Palmerston North and another Junior

With the winner for the worst decision being the
The young tall kid from Palmerston North and another Junior
The tall kid was awesome well done to his trainer (not sure of the kids name)

Worst Reffing on the Night

Simple call the one with the funny blonde hair cut - he was impressively incompatent. The other one was good.

Worst judging

Everyone - the judging was not consistantly wrong but as was said earlier was a lottery sometimes it was ok most of the time it was average or shit.

Special award goes to the guy who judged his own fighter (not sure who it was but boy that is impressive). Hey now heres an idea why don't you have a ref from the same club as the fighter and judges from the same club surely that would be faire? Or would it just be an Auckland fight night??

Worst Hair cut

Goes to the worst ref

Was it worth the 15$ some fights were the little asian guy was amazing fast and pwerful KO. Sorry I am not sure about the names I could not get hold of a program.

ONE IN QUESTION
lance Serancke V Shannon Hill??

I think your call about "an Auckland fightnight" is about unnecasary and ungrounded. In my opinion the majority of decisions that I see are very fair, and if not they are generally not in favour the local fighter! Ask Shane Chapman about it!

Mr Hardcore.

I respect your opinion but do not agree with your views. I was at the Shane Chapman Fight you are referring to and it was a close fight - if you watch the video (I am sure you have it) you will see that alot of Shanes Shots missed but the Thai landed alot of his shots (although some are a bit weaker). It was a close fight that could have gone either way (watch the video and count the shots). Remember the judges were Thai and tend to view kicking and kneeing as scoring more than punches. In Auckland punches are often ranked highly (by the non Thai judges) - can you see how this may cause conflict?

The fighters in front of me said that if you go to Auckland you have to knock them out to win. Ask Peter Graham about his fight with the Twister - I was shown this fight in Aussie and I think it was the worst decision I had ever seen. I think Tristam hit him 3 maybe 4 times and got a draw mind you Peter only landed 50 + shots per round!!!!

If you can get a hold of this fight you will see what I mean. Of course not all judging in Auckland is off but do you think they should have people from the same club or from the same family judging and reffing one of there fighters?

You are a Lee Gar fighter - do you think it would be fair if 3 Lee Gar judges were scoring your fight? Or people who were associated to your fight? You have said before that Lee Gar is a family - could you judge your brother fairly or would bias come into play?

I can go on and name alot of fights that have been judged badly in Auckland. But we are talking about incompetance at the Nationals rather than bias like Auckland.

I would like to thank everyone that helped me on Saturday night, especially Marcia and Sue. I've got a couple of broken ribs and a very bruised ego! but getting better by the day! Well done to Leanne on her win, but yes I'll be back for a third encounter!!

I usually just read the comments but in this case I feel compelled to respond... to all those bitching about Dion I have to set the record straight - Shannon Wilson is not our boy, he has never trained with Zero Tolerance and his instructors are actually Andrew and Leighann Banham from Jackals. Don't you think if it was one of our fighters Dion would have been in the corner!!

As for the scoring system Dion stuffed that up, but still believes in his decision to give the fight to Shannon. Obviously another judge agreed or the fight wouldn't have gone that way.

To Catherine - Leighann and the rest of us wishe you a speedy recovery and Leigh hopes to meet you again next year.

well, from a spectator's point of view, i thought the fights were great, good intensity!...right through the night (not like a normal fight show where you sometimes have to wait till near the end to see good fights). the steak and cheese pies were great too!, LOL...as for the judging and refereeing, well..nothing to say..except, from personal experience, I'd prefer Akld over Wgtn, but that's just me...see y'all later.

Hey Judge,
I noticed u mention about that tall young guy from
palmerston north. His name is Mike Pearce and he
is 16 yrs old and has been training for 6 months
with me at the Manawatu Martial Arts Centre. That was his
very first fight. I am impressed at what he has acheived
in such short amount of time. I am disgusted at the
judging of that fight. Some judge must have been
F#%*ing blind. I am sure Mikes opponent knows who
really won that match.I have been in the sport along time
as a fighter, trainer and a judge, but what I saw on saturday
just stunned me...
cheers
Stu Chambers

"You are a Lee Gar fighter - do you think it would be fair if 3 Lee Gar judges were scoring your fight? Or people who were associated to your fight? You have said before that Lee Gar is a family - could you judge your brother fairly or would bias come into play?"

I would have to say I wouldn't feel comfortable with other leegar fighters judging my fights. Not because they I think they would cheat , I just would hate for their to be any controversy, especially if it was a close fight.I would want to be judged fairly and think that any one I might deserves to be too.

I haven't seen the video of Choppa, but I defiently will have to get a hold of it now! From where I was sitting on the night, it looked like a onesided affair, but hey like you say, maybe my feelings got in the way of my objectivity! Ill check it out and get back to you.

Takecare
Richie

And on the same issue
with Mike Pearce's fight.
Could the judges please explain to him why they
made the decisions they did. i know who the three
judges are I have you on video.If you are unsure
about which fight because of your short term memory
loss, then i can help you It was the
Junior cruiserweight division.
cheers
Stu Chambers

I agree with Richie I watched both the Fight and the Video. The Fight was given to the Thai Fighter 10-8 in the Last round by 2 of the Judges. Even on thai scoring I don't beleive that the Thai fighter showed the level of Mastery of that round that would justify that score.

I've just realised which fight you mean now Stu. All credit to both fighters 'cos they both were awesome, but I couldn't believe that decision. I thought Mike Pearce clearly won. Not the only bad call of the night either.

Mike was amazing. I am not sure who the judges are or if they are on the AX. i thought he easily won the fight or mismatch as it was. You have done a fantastic job with him in 6 months.

Shannon may have been from Andrews club but I thought it was the same club apologies for that obviously he never trains with.

As for making a mistake with a 10 point must system - mistakes do happen although I would have hoped that judges selected for the nationals would have been chosen for their expertise and know the rules. If Dion thought that Shannon won that fight he should stop fighting today as he is obviously suffering from pugilistic dementia.

What is scary is that 3 judges could be chosen who have the same affliction - perhaps it is part of the selection process??

And why did the person who ran the tournament not remove judges who were having an "off night"?

Richie - thank you for your reply and your honesty. It was not an attack on you personally. But here is a question to make you think - pick any of your fights and if you have the video ask where are the judges from??

ok, Ill have to look...

Apart from the judges being blind (except for my fight) the organisation of the night was allot better than it was last year. there where alot less last minute changes the runners helped out alot. the lack of standing was poor not to mention to dangerious for amature level. i personally would rather get a standing 8 and lose than get knocked out and not fight for 3 mounths

Hello everyone

I have now received the official results from the promoter. Please note I am publishing these for your information, this doesn't mean I agree or disagree with the decisions, that was done by the judges on the night.

I have obtained these from a fax, its a bit hard to read so I will do my best but if I get one wrong please let me know so I can adjust it. I apologise for any incorrect spelling, I can't spell to save myself thats why I'm an Engineer!!!

JUNIOR MENS

45-46kg

1st Richard Green ?
2nd Kyle Seranche Team Redden Porirua

54kg

1st Rowan Samson Samson Thai Boxing New Plymouth
2nd Leon Calver Perry Muay Thai Wanganui

86kg

1st Daniel Fergusson ?
2nd Mike Pearce Manawatu Martial Arts

WOMANS

53kg

1st Sarah Clunie Manawatu Martial Arts
2nd Jana King ?

57kg

1st Leanne Bannan Bulldogs Dannevirke
2nd Catherine Maciver Sitnarong Thai Boxing Christchurch

71kg

1st Liz Kairae VUW Kickboxing Wellington
2nd Susan Marsh Academy of Combat Christchurch

MENS

61.5KG

1st Sone Vannathy Team Redden Porirua
2nd Martin Ryan Kapiti Thai Boxing

63.5kg

1st Adam Pointon Kapiti Thai Boxing
2nd Jason Watere He Toa Petone

66.6kg

1st Andrew Ford Harley Kickboxing Masterton
2nd Mark Spenser Alpha Thai Boxing Porirua

76.3kg

1st Shannon Wilson Jackal Thai Boxing Napier
2nd Lance Seranche Team Redden Porirua

79.3kg

1st Phillop Bolton Sitnarong Thai Boxing
2nd Sam Fiamatai Manawatu Martial Arts

82.5kg

1st Nathan Odering Manawatu Martial Arts
2nd Doug Kumaru Jackal Thai Boxing Napier

86.1kg

1st Billy Davis Bulldogs Dannevirke
2nd Francis Vestolu SMAC Auckland

95kg

1st Dan Stirling He Toa Petone
2nd Charlie Smiler ?

95+kg

1st David Tai Alpha Thai Boxing Porirua
2nd Evan Yeoman Manawatu Martial Arts

Judge Dread and Stu

All the judges did not make bad decisions

mark Spencers was a split as was lance Searankes

i am not sure about mikes

Chris is a reasonable judge and made the split on the decisions that sucked this does not mean he is perfect but proves that using consistent judges is as important as consistent referees

I for one will only Use Colin Smith and Ben Ahipene

Why is Colin overlooked for The "Nationals" but used at major events incl the K1

I hope this works. This is Adam Pointon vs Jason Watere taken from the Hutt News (Tuesday, 10th Dec). I hope I'm not violating any copyright laws by putting it here :-) It was an exciting fight, with Adam fighting smart and countering Jason's hand techniques with excellent grapple/knee work.

Also this result:
71kg
1st Liz Kairae VUW Kickboxing Wellington
2nd Susan Marsh Academy of Combat Christchurch

is round the wrong way (Lis would be the first to point that out), good fight though.

I'd love to see Billy Davis and Francis go at it again, in a non-tournament fight. There was some big leather thrown in Sam's fight against Phillop Bolton too, wouldn't mind seeing some more of that!!

As far as I am concerned generally 3 judges control a decsion (if a fight goes that far). I am sure that sometime some of the Judges were accurate.

I am not sure who Chris was and if he gave a split decision on the fights that were discussed earlier then at least they had one reasonable judge on the night.

I do not know which fights were split and which were not. This was not read out on the night - I am not sure of most of the fighters names as I could not get hold of a program. What concerns this person is that decisions could be made that were consistantly wrong and no one removed the judge/s concerned. Of course people make mistakes - such is life but to have a judge who does not know the scoring system? I do not think that this judge and obviously others were ready to judge these fights - or any others.


I am also shocked that the Referee (the blonde one) could have had such an influence on the outcome of the fights. Although I would have thought that the judges could change the score if a fighter should have been given an 8 count??? For example if a fighter is being pummelled and gets knocked down but the ref does not score the 8 count shouldn't a smart judge score that?

judge dread:

If a ref fails to give an 8 count then I dont think its up to the judges to change that. The judges have to trust the ref - its his/her job to make the call, and he/she is the one closest to the action. This means there will be some screw ups when the ref gets it wrong, but at least all the judges will still be consistent. What's needed is good refs who call an 8 count at the right time.

dread you are absolutely right the judges do have the right to score the eight count as a 10 -eight round

I have asked for judges to be changed before fights if i thought they werte making bad decisions and have never had a promoter refuse.

In fact i have had one fighter refuse to fight if the judges were not changed, I think this is fair and if a trainer or fighter feels strongly about the judging or refereeing say something on the night, most promoters are on your side

the funniest thing was when I was in lance searanckes corner at the end of his fight and I noticed dion was judging and asked the ref chris sampson why dion was judging. Chris said "don't worry lance won it easily but if its a split decision I will say something!" then it was announced that lance lost and chris said" please don't kick up a fuss here I am sorry "! WHAT IS UP WITH THAT?

The other funny part of the nationals is that there was only one entry at 60kg (superlightweight) his name was sone vanathy who fights for fta/boonchu.so he moved up to the next weight class ,not worrying about giving away 3-4kg and there were 3 entrys so became the fourth. Then when they were doing the draw for the 4 man 64 kg division they drew it all and sone was fighting jason watene and adam pointon was fight martin somebody,but barry (an official) said to me that he use to train martin so he didn't want him and adam(barrys other fighter to fight each other in the first round.so I said ok (to be fair) as I new martin wouldn't beat sone so he wouldn't even make the final to fight adam!
so sone comes out ko's martin in about 30seconds and is looking forward to his much awaited fight with adam! then all of a sudden the rules change!ka bam!
now they have decided that they are two different weight classes cos sone was to light!hahaha and they decide that adam couldn't fight sone.barry and martin stirling said "no sorry rex we have decided to make sone's fight and adam pointons fight two different weight divisions!"talk about change the rules to accomodate yourself when it suits you! why even bother having the nationals at all if you are going to do those sorts of things!

Rexy
ps its now your turn to pipe up slinky!come on give it too me big fella!
we have all noticed you only pipe up when I have a dig at the tba!haha
slinky slinky slinky!
or how about you quickly change your name and pop up as someone else again! nah don't bother just use your glossoholic user name again!hehe lol
by the way I loved your mullet on the weekend!you looked great!;-)

who is slinky? can't be Ben the ref, no...lol, well I was surprised when Charlie and Dan suddenly became heavyweights, and missed out on Lance Pearson, Billy etc.....well, I don't know why everyone is stunned...the standard of judging/reffing in the lower North Island is not great, "generally speaking" (because of course all cities have their off nights)...at least in Akld, u can sort of predict what the judges like...down here, who knows? depends on their mood...I read an excellent article on Muay Thai Online, hang on, here - http://www.muaythaionline.net/disciplines/judgeintroduction.html

hey Nathan, man your opponent was fierce, he came out like Tyson on speed in that 1st round! Good comeback in the 2nd and 3rd, and a good victory dude....congrats on the title. see ya.

Lol @ rex and slinky
Rex is startin a slingin match
lets see who will win
duck so the crap dont hit ya in the face.he he

Sorry Dave, I did'nt mean all the judges suck,cuz one
of them must of given Mike the win,but the other two
must of given Mikes opponent the win, that makes a split
decision does'nt it. I would just like those judges to
explain to Mike why he lost so he can benefit from his
experience. cheers
Stu

Thanks vince. yeah he clocked me with 2 real good ones in the first. have to keep my hands up next time aye.looking foward to seeing the rest of the fights on tape.

Stu
U know judges won't be accountable

Why not ask for the judging sheets you are entitled to view them, good obsevation on the heavyweights Vince , Dan did not become a heavy weight until Gareth lewis pulled out , i suppose if he stayed in as Dan would have had to become a light weight , oops no Sone was in there.

hehe Dave...just gotta find a division without those crazy Porirua guys in it, lol...well, guess I better let this thread die and disappear...see ya.

IN the results for the junior men, Young serank won , not Richard Green from Palmy, And in the 53 kg womens, Janna won also from Palmy, just to let you know.

I also though Mike won but then I only saw the last 1/2 of the fight so that dosn't help.

Instead of bitching about the jusdges lets get together run a course and get some recognised qualifications. I have trained in Thailand as a judge and also judged at the world champs in Bangkok, still it is rare that I get asked to judge the same with many others that have jusged at the novince fights for years now. I t is true consistance is important the same jusdges should juudge through the night.

In Dions defense he still picked a clear winner whether he had a 9 or a 10 this is what counts and I feel he does have the experience to be judging.

IN thailand you can give a 19-18 round or a 19-19 round actually you can draw the whole fight round for round, however you still must chose a winner at the end and they have specific rules on how you do this. Just to clarify things, kicks, punches knees and elbows are all equal in value it is the effectiveness that scores and use of a range of effective techniques that matter. Defense is also as important as offense. I have all the rules and regs if anyone wishes to know them.

In the next year due to being unable to fight I am going to help set up the WMC here in NZ to do this I need 15 clubs wanting to join, the cost is minimal and the benifits are great, leading to international competitions. We become a branch of the ociana WMC (& IFMA) it will not be a governing body but an organisation that can help fighters promoters, jusdges and refs.

Anyone interested contact me on sueglassey@hotmail.com

Sue

I am with you sue! wmc sounds great to me.
talk soon

I think qualified judges would be great, consistancy throughout the country would benifit the fighters. I am not so sure we need another organization.

When the allblacks get beaten ,notice how its always the bloody ref or the blind linesman that buggered it up for us . As adults we should all be well aware the it isnt going to go our way all the time ,the very nature of competition and our choosen sport allows for only one victor .Surely this is what drives us ,my oldest son Richard Shotton had his first fight in the ring at the champs, at 14 years old i feel he is already a winner for getting in there and going hard, thank you to his opponent Leon Calver, for a great test, looking forward to September.We had a great night , good tournament,well done Richard ,Shannon , and Doug Kamaru (first fight also ) guard up Nathan ,and Leighann ,watch the ribs.good night out for our club Jackels M.T Napier .cheers Andrew and leighann we love to sweat. Thank you all have a safe christmas Rex S.

HI Tony

Its not just another organisation, it is the only one recognised in thailand by the Government and King . World Muay thai Council is probably the most 'international' organisation along with its amatuer branch IFMA, they are the organisation taking Muay thai to the world, via the olimpics (amatuer) they are working well together and it would benifit NZ and our potential fighters to join with this organisation. We don't have to do much to get it up and running in this country and it will be a huge benifit to all.

Sue

Haven't Heard from our lustrious Wellington Leaders Yet, Since the Nationals.

Must have been all to much for them.

I take Chiang you Both must have Walked out the Front Door Turned Left then Right & Headed up the Road for 4 Blocks then Turned Right into the Sportsmans Bar & Seeked Solace with the Owner/Manager & First Sempai of 30 years ago.
hehehe lol

Hi Sue, I knew as soon as I pushed the send button that I shouldn't have. I don't want to start any controversy it was just that I was trying to get an idea of how many people supported which federation and why. Is it a good thing or a bad thing for there to be so many champions in the same weight division but fighting under different banners?, that sort of thing. As a non fighter I would be interested to know what the fighters and trainers think. Also are you trying to unite all the federations under one banner or to run alongside of them. What ever the reason I whish you luck, good to know you are not going to be idle in your enforced layoff.

I tend to agree with Tony - Regarding the proliferation of Sanctioning Bodies - this is an issue which prevails in many countries through out the world.

I do think the WMC is a legitimate body particularly due to its direct links to Thailand. However it will have its work cut out for it establishing itself amongst the WKA, ISKA, WMTA, WKBF and the UBKBC (Uncle Bobs Kickboxing Club)

Perhaps you could colaborate with the NZTBA and get a national Ranking system under way - and then engage a series of fights amongst the top 8 fighters in the various divisions until you have 2 contenders for the WMC titles which you could then cliam with some legitimacy to have champions who are the undisputed champs of NZ.

Off course there will be the usual politicing to naviagate - but this could be a good approach to begin with.

As a fighter - I just want to have a decent fight against a good hard opponent at the end of the day that rather than titles determines my satisfaction - having said that if I were to win a title after such a series I'd be pretty damn happy.

Thoughts any one ???

Mike, I also like the idea of a ranking system. I believe it would help everone concerned, promoters, fighters and fans. I have offered to make my records available to help out and Brett De'arth was speaking to me about a program earlier this week.

HI

Yeah I like the Idea of a ranking system, The WMC though they are a sanctioning body are much more than that they arepure Muay Thai set up with thailand and i feel are an organisation that is going a long way, especially from the turn out at their meeting in Thailand that I attended. There were reps from over 50 different countries all trying to unite Mauy thai as a sport through out the world. I know there are may sanctioning bodies out there, ones down under ones in europe you can hold a world title down here and not even fight the top fighters in europe, to have an organisation that is pushing for world wide recognition intead of one corner of the world is a great prospect for the future of Muay thai and its fighters. I for one would love to see Muay thai in the Olympics, I would love to see it recognised around the world as a real sport, I would love to be recognised in NZ by local sports bodies as an athlete worthy of that title and as recognised as an individual that competes in boxing, the commonwealths etc.
The work we all put in to the sport becoming recognised globally is only going to benifit the fighters, it can't happen with ten different small organisations.
The WMC have already got recognition from thailand and that is the starting point I hope.

Sue

HI

Yeah I like the Idea of a ranking system, The WMC though they are a sanctioning body are much more than that they arepure Muay Thai set up with thailand and i feel are an organisation that is going a long way, especially from the turn out at their meeting in Thailand that I attended. There were reps from over 50 different countries all trying to unite Mauy thai as a sport through out the world. I know there are may sanctioning bodies out there, ones down under ones in europe you can hold a world title down here and not even fight the top fighters in europe, to have an organisation that is pushing for world wide recognition intead of one corner of the world is a great prospect for the future of Muay thai and its fighters. I for one would love to see Muay thai in the Olympics, I would love to see it recognised around the world as a real sport, I would love to be recognised in NZ by local sports bodies as an athlete worthy of that title and as recognised as an individual that competes in boxing, the commonwealths etc.
The work we all put in to the sport becoming recognised globally is only going to benifit the fighters, it can't happen with ten different small organisations.
The WMC have already got recognition from thailand and that is the starting point I hope.

Sue

When we did judging certification, I was sitting next to some of new other people and let me I tell you....They see totally different from I saw. Right or wrong is irelevent. We just scored different because we saw it differently. The round I gave to red corners, some went to blue corner. This was a totally non-biased examination from a fight video that TBANZ provided. It's clear to me that people will always see things differently from you. I can live with the fact that, if this is what they based their decision on. I will accept. If they are biased because the person they score to win is their friends, than they are the one who is going to live with it. I feel so sorry for many, many people (including some of my fighters) who may have done enough to win fight, but given a loss by the judges. Trust me, I have been there many times.

Someone mentioned the fight between Tristam Apikotoa and Peter Graham. I totally agree and think that Peter won that fight. However, they actually gave it to Tristam. I said (as trainer of Tristam at the time) Please check the score again, I don't think we won the fight,it must be some kind of mistake. Than they said it's a draw. (The judges were non-Balmorall Lee Gar also, for the person who made the accusations.) But the point is, I think judges needs review of their judging styles on a yearly period. This way they can find a way to perhaps improve their judging and their periphial vision. We see things from different perspectives. Whatever we see and think we are convinced that's the right decision. As for Choppa's last fight against a Thai, I know for a fact that there were gambling involved (which make things sucks!! and I'm totally aginst that BS!). Anyway, they are the one who are going to live with it, and I do believe in what's goes around comes around.

A fight the other night, which I honestly thought it was a draw, but we lost (Ivan Walker vs Daniel Tai). The judges were my friends and I respect them for their decision because it's their honest opinion. And please cut out the BS that Auckland judges are all biased. People aren't perfect and they are around the country and the whole world. People see things differently. Maybe you get to see more different ruling to your liking more often in Auckland because of more shows, but it's like that everywhere. If I honestly think I have a fighter who lost, but won (for those who know me well enough) I would not accept the win. If I think that my fighter won, but you think otherwise, than it's just the way it is. I won't try and convinced you, and you shouldn't try to convinced me you're right either, because we are both right.

It was wonderfully refreshing to read a post by the father of Richard Shotton when he wrote ..

" When the All Blacks get beaten, notice how its always the bloody ref or the blind linesman that buggered it up for us . As adults we should all be well aware the it isnt going to go our way all the time ,the very nature of competition and our choosen sport allows for only one victor .Surely this is what drives us ,my oldest son Richard Shotton had his first fight in the ring at the champs, at 14 years old i feel he is already a winner for getting in there and going hard, thank you to his opponent Leon Calver, for a great test, looking forward to September. We had a great night , good tournament,well done Richard ,Shannon , and Doug Kamaru (first fight also ) guard up Nathan ,and Leighann , watch the ribs. Good night out for our club Jackels M.T Napier. Cheers Andrew and Leighann we love to sweat. Thank you all have a safe christmas Rex S. "

.. it so captures the essence of why we stay in this game.

Nah Highlander I'm still here ... we did walk out the front door and turn left but then turned left again and finally ended up in Courtney Place at 3:30am in the morning. Most enjoyable from what I can remember.

Haven't been able to exchange pleasantries with you lately because my clients ( quite unreasonable, I believe ) are demanding that their contracts are to be completed before Xmas !!! How mean spirited is that, I ask you ?

So there you have it Highlander, some of us have real jobs. We cant all go prancing around in lycra leotards like you, Highlander swapping the occasional pleasantry and swanning around country enjoying fight nights, drinking and carousing around without a care or responsibility in the world.

Hehehe ...

..and you have a Very Merry Xmas & Happy New Year to Scotty

Hi Lollo ... haven't had time to get back to you before but yes, you were quite right about Tristam and Steve and I have advised Ray Perry about correcting the results.

My Apologies.

This whole judging thing has brought up a couple really interest areas for discussion as well as posts by Mike Angrove and Tony Robb that I feel need expanding upon...

But first ...

I knew that would bring you out Chiang.

Just had to cast the line with the right bait on it & i knew you coulde'nt resist a good old chinwag. I was starting to get worried there for awhile, Thought you might have seeked to much solace, hehehe

Seasons Greeting & the best for 2003 Barry

Merry Xmas - to one and all , time for an AX Break and to spend time with my family.

Take care and God Bless...

I'm looking forward to next year when we will see NZ kickboxing really make its mark on the world ... wait and see...

Good to see you back in Barry. Merry Christmas and happy New Year to you all.

HI lollo

I'm with you on that, each judge is asked to judge because we value their opinion or they wouldn;t have been asked to judge. I do feel some type of annual review would improve a little consitancy between fights, fight noghts and regions.

Hope you all have a great xmas I'm off down south to reunit with my husband yay! Hope you all enjoy the holiday season with your families.

Sue

Were was I now ... ???

Oh Yes, I know, I was going to expound at great length on judging, refs, etc, etc, ... but what the heck, it's Xmas Eve, it can wait.

After all, I've already started by indulging in my favourite pastime over the Xmas / New Year break, by devoured a couple novels yesterday where I came across this wonderful 'one-liner' I'd like to share on AX

"Well, you know what they say: opinions are like arseholes; everybody's got one."

....spoke by Tito Ihaka, a street cop in a novel by Paul Thomas called Guerrilla Season on the pontificating of a 'wannabe'

Well Said Barry

Time to start a new thread,

wish all of you all the best for the new Year

Hi Lollo,

The accusations were that some of the judging in Auckland is Biased and it
is. Most people in the game know it and accept it - but that does not mean
that they have to like it.

Of course different judges will see fights different ways and at the end of
a close fight no one should complain when a decision goes either way (after
all it was a close fight).

However when the fight is not close and it is obvious who the winner is - ie
the Tristam and Peter Graham fight then one must question how the judges
made there decision – you all agree on that. If a fight can be judged that poorly then it is one of
3 things (maybe more if we include drugs!!)

Bias
Incompetance
Gambling

If the judge is biased then they should not be there (it should be asked who
chose the judges if people think this is the case). If the judge is
incompetant then they should not be there and the same is the case for
gambling.

Which was it in the case of the Peter Graham and Tristam fight?

I am also amazed that as a trainer you could overturn a decision - from a
win for Tristam to a Draw.

This disturbs me on so many levels.

Right or wrong is relevent and it always will be. People who judge should do
the right thing - mistakes happen and so do poor decisions. People in
general and fighters have to deal with that.

But this does not mean that it should be accepted.

Chris Potatoe wrote: "But this does not mean that it should be accepted." I don't think bitching about it will help. Doing something about it needs everyone's support.

Belive me chris potatoe, we don't tolerate this here in Auckland also. During Graham vs Apikotoa, the judges were 2 from Auckland and one from outside Auckland. One made it a draw, and two went for Tristam. Amazingly, it was the judge from outside Auckland who gave Tristam the bigger margin. The announcer (Gary Magristal) called it a draw so everyone can go back to the videos, as I had told him it must be a mistake. In saying that, there is no such thing is accepting small margin of (bad decision)lost or obvious lost...They are all wrong decisions and we need to do something about it.

What I've done is, I've never use those same judges again at any of my shows. Potatoe, that's all I can control mate! Stopping judges from making bad decision thoughout the country needs and input direct from sanctioning body officials, and those who promote shows. In the last few shows, I've asked the TBANZ to come up with the judges, and most cases in our last few shows, we used judges from outside Auckland. I believe it's a good start.