I have recently proposed some ideas regarding a concept I call Ax 'Verfied' users.
It was brought up in this topic, but that thread got messy. I`m starting this new thread with an overview of the issues.
Please contribute your opinions


Here are the issues layed out...

Anonymous Forum

Pro`s

1. Allows virtually open discussion
   
2. More registrations means more people to interact with
   
3. Easy to implement, in the beginning
   
4. It is the more common forum standard on the internet
   
5. Provides promoters, fighters, trainers with an avenue to voice their opinions with no backlash
   
6. (from Jones) 'Having an anonymous forum could stop KB becoming like pro boxing with dangerous mismatches and all sorts of other scams.'
   
7. Allows a poster to have the focus placed upon the content of their post rather than who they are.
   

Con`s

1. Difficult to moderate - requires more moderator muscle
   
2. Little to no responsibility placed upon the Axer posting their messages
   
3. Allows more capabilities for stirrers
   
4. Higher number of registered Axers means more people to moderate
   
5. Some Axers can get away with multiple Ax names
   

Resources Required

1. Complex moderation tools for tracking internet identity to make sure people stay banned
   
2. Existing moderation tools are not adequate and need to be upraded
   
3. More moderators are required to cover all of the daily moderation issues
   

Verified Identity Forum

Pro`s

1. Entices more KB stars to participate in the forum
   
2. It places more responsibility upon the Axer posting their messages
   
3. Much easier moderation
   
   
   
   1. Fewer registered participants
      
   2. FAR Fewer 'stirring' posts
      
   
   
4. Allows existing laws to help moderate by providing a consequence for damaging remarks
   
5. Would bring focus to the blacklisting issue that runs rampant in KB
   
6. Over time, the numbers will grow and the quality of the posters will have improved
   
7. Hopefully, would promote more honesty within the community
   
8. There could be a sponsorship option to circumvent the costs and time of verification in some instances
   
9. If you`re currently a nobody who lives in Antarctica, then you`ll continue to be a nobody that lives in Antarctica
   

Con`s

1. Limits open discussion by most participants
   
2. May cause some Axers to focus more on the person rather than the content of their post
   
3. Posts by an Axer could result in litigation (being taken to court)
   
   
   
   1. Libel (what people mistakenly refer to as slander)
      
   2. Identity Fraud
      
   
   
4. Fewer posters means less people to interact with
   
5. Removes Axer`s privacy with their identity
   
6. Allows potential for real attacks upon Ax participants (stalkers, etc)
   
   
   
   1. Though, this is not different than everyday life.
      
   
   

Resources Required

1. Difficult initial programming changes
   
2. Verification processes cost money
   
3. Volunteer Axers who might help with the verication process
   
4. Would need to research verification options in different countries
   

That is what I have so far. This is an important topic, so I`d appreciate lots of input about this.
This might (and might not) result in the biggest change in Ax`s history. This is what many of you have
complained about plenty of times in the past (anonymous posters).

Just to make things clear, here is how the verification would work...

1. You go to a secure page to fill out the verification screen
   
2. Along with the normal registration options, you will be required to add in your real name, address and phone number.
   
3. We would receive your info and contact you, as well as do research on your information, so verify your real name.
   
4. The verification options that we choose would be based upon multiple things
   
   
   
   • How accessible your name is within public records, phone book, etc
     
   • What country you live in
     
   • Whether there are multiple people at your location registering for Ax accounts
     
   
   
5. After we verify you, then you will be able to post
   
6. How would this affect your profile information? The Real Name and Country fields would have true information and would not be editable by the user
   

That is basically how it would work, thus far. There could be small changes in the process, if it were to go into effect.

Great idea Brian to start a new post on this -

Like you have pointed out both options of an anonymous forum and a verified one have their pros and cons - which means I think that this topic will be forever debatable - and no outcome perhaps is either right or wrong!

I think that the benefits of a verified forum is far more difficult, costly and timely to set up but I think it's benefits for not only axers but yourself also in the long term are more positive than the anonymous option is -

In regard to the cons of a verified forum - personally I don't think it should' mean to limit open discussion' by most posters, as long as what they had to say was something worth saying -

In reagrd to the possibility that it may mean people focus on the person saying it rather than what they actually say - another swing to that could be that it would make potentially make what is said far more interesting and topical perhaps because of who has said it -

I do think the fact that posts by axers could result in litigation is very scary - and I think woould put alot of people off perhaps, almost definately - it's a biggie but again would it be an issue if the content and quality of the forum was good and strong and valid -

Fewer poster mean less people to interact with - doesn't matter really I think as those who are posting Axers are quality - and I think that in time the numbers again would grow naturally with the quality of the forum - it is a shame though if this meant that the site would reach' less people - meaning less people woudl be learning' about the sport etc - but maybe that wqould evenetually be offset by the plus'es of a high quality forum' cause if it still did reach' big numbers of people, they would see the sport to be respectable, respectfull etc -


Allows for opportunity fror real attacks on axers - this is also a biggie but something I don't know enough about it to comment on it really - how often does this sort of thing happen?


And on the pro's

Wouldn't it be great to attract mroe stars' to this site? that's gotta be a good thing has it not? though I do think that say people who might be more novis like or not so close to the sport do often have really valid things to say - sometimes being too involved in something can soemtimes make you a bit blind etc - so fresh and newe opinions are important also.

i think it's a good thing to encourage people to take more responsability for what they say and do'

Much easier moderation i think would be a great thing for you and the moderators brian - less time required by yourselves in the long run - or time otherwise better spent on other areas of ax' which would benefit you and us all also -

I think Brian that above all what matters is that you have to do what you feel is right for YOURSELF and right for the direction that YOU want to take this site in - and I think it's up to us to show you our support whatever you do with ax'

Anyway Axers that's what I THINK? if you agree or not please don't slam me for it cause it's not very nice ok! all it does when you slam someone is make them feel stink and to tell the truth like not posting and not coming back - and I might add to that that this post is about the above stated topic, not about me! if that makes sense!

Cheers all have a great day

Image Girl,don`t let negative experiences affect your enthusiasm !
i like your comments and also that you`re not afraid of talking about
yourself !that`s GREAT imho !

Honestly you need a better Forum system. Try VBulletin or phpbb. You have a lot more moderator and administrator control with those as well.

verify.

I'm glad a new thread has started about this topic. After originally getting involved in the discussion on the original thread, I chose not to continue as I had not been on for a couple of days and the thread had grown quite large- too large for me to have continued in limited time.

Ok, Brian, I like the way you have methodically set out a plan of pros, cons and what it would entail to pursue either option.
It is unfortunate that more people`s logic is not as considered and efficient as yours as, I believe, this problem would not have arisen in the first place.

On the anonymous posters subject being of two issues-
1- Offensive/ problematic posters. (Anonymous or not)
2- The principal of anonymous posters.

How about forgetting the whole anonymous thing and focussing on problematic posters who fly off the handle at the drop of a hat?
You could give a seies of tests to measure a person`s debating skills. It could be judged by you or some other power- and if they don`t cut the mustard they can't post on AX...

This may sound daft to some but it`s no dafter a concept that banning anonymous posters.

Anyway, if you did decide to follow the verification procedures I, for one would probably not pass (aside from the fact that I would have reservations about them anyway). I usually post at internet cafes, I am not in any phonebooks, I change my address from time to time and I only have yahoo and hotmail accounts and do not work for a company that provides me with one.

I do not consider myself a problematic poster but I would not be eligible to post anymore.

i haven't read image girls original thread because i thought the premise was rather silly

might i take this moment to remind everyone that THIS IS THE INTERNET

if you can't put up with the fact that some people will want to remain anonymous and or want to mess about then maybe you need to look around more internet forums and realise a pattern in the way some people post.

Brian what you are proposing in my opinion will be very difficult and possibly the downfall of ax

Anyone think that the blue ribbon campaign should be bought into play here? :D

I personally like to look up who I'm responding to. For me it's nice to know who I am speaking to, but I understand that some people don't want their true identies made public.

For Ax I think this is can be both good and bad. Perhaps a user is a referee or something and just doesn't want to be attacked for their oppinions. Also, I can understand if a pro fighter would want to remain anonymous.

JMHO,

I've seen so many great and informative posts by unknown user names, equally I've seen some unnecessary whose sole intent is to stir things up.

Tough decision.

Make it happen Brian :-) I think it would be a lot better in the long run, may take a while to get it all up and running smoothly, but I think it could work.
IMO.

PLMK if I can do anything to help out.

Regards,
Tony.

Tony Hayes..
I see that your are a staunch advocate for this identity thing. However, so far you have not given any reasons as to how you think it will stop problematic posting. This is not only you but most people who believe it is a good idea have not done so either.

Please back up your standpoint with some kind of synthesis.

Why should non-problematic posters who wish to remain anonymous be booted off of AX just for the gratification of a lynch mob on a witch-hunt? Why should all anonymous posters be tarred with the same brush?

I think people should be allowed to remain annonymous, I know that some posts are just there to shit stir but I think AX would be a duller place without some people who do not wish to post their real names. I'm sure that there are many subjects that would never have been raised if everyone had to declare thier identity.

I think people should be allowed to remain annonymous, I know that some posts are just there to shit stir but I think AX would be a duller place without some people who do not wish to post their real names. I'm sure that there are many subjects that would never have been raised if everyone had to declare thier identity.

Could members not be given limited access to the forum if they do not fill in a profile/become verified, which would be much like running both a forum for those who are verified and a forum for those who are not?

Satankid, I do not need to back up my thoughts or views on this matter,so you cannot sit there and ask just me to justify myself can you?

I have my reasons as do others on this site!

My thoughts are my own, except that I prefer knowing who I am talking to.

Tony.

I think Satankid was just asking you to back up your thoughts to strengthen your standpoint Tony , by just saying "Make it happen" is not that convincing for Brian. Just a thought.

Tony Hayes,

Of course you do not need to back your argument up. But surely it amounts to nothing if you choose not to. If you feel strongly about this, (which you appear to do) you should be able to give reasons otherwise it is just like saying "I'm right because I say I am".
That is merely bullying tactics and simply does not cut the mustard in a debate.

I'm sure you, and others on this site, who feel the same way have your reasons. But the fact that only a couple of people so far have attempted to back the argument up is my point here.

JD... Exactly.

[removed by moderation - Moderation@AxKickboxing.com]

Please stay on topic

Ax Team

Sorry I keep double posting!

B******s I done it again!

Ok JD we get your point :)

I don't know what is happening, sorry

JD, Tell us again what you think Satankid was asking, we didnt get it first time. Or second. Or third.

lol, i don't know whats happening!

moderators help!

The man's relentless! You are quite militant about this considering it was 'just a thought' lol

I think Satankid was just asking you to back up your thoughts to strengthen your standpoint Tony , by just saying "Make it happen" is not that convincing for Brian. Just a thought.

Just a thought...Verified members can create topics and post on topics. Non verified members can only post!

Tony, Satankid is right. You certainly do not have to supply anyone with reasons for your choice on this matter. The thing is, this isn`t a voting booth. This is a discussion. As such, I would prefer more input as to the pros and cons. I want others to provide other points of view to include points that I might have overlooked.

One thing I do not get is the whole "this is the internet...everyone is anonymous here" idea. To me, that is an inaccurate statement. If everyone was truly anonymous online then there would NEVER be credit card transactions done online, or internet banking systems would not work, and the RIAA would not be able to find people who trade pirate music files and sue them. I`m telling you that it CAN be done. There ARE communities that exist on the internet that require identity validation. It IS possible.

I am not asking how the internet works.

I am asking you for your thoughts on the Pros and Cons of Identification and Anonymity on an internet forum.

Thank you

Brian

BugEyedEarl writes:
"Honestly you need a better Forum system. Try VBulletin or phpbb. You have a lot more moderator and administrator control with those as well."

Earl, to make that comment, you would have to know about the moderation tools that are available on this website, which you do not. I`m aware of the moderation tools for popular "plug-in" forums like phpbb and such. They don`t have what I am looking for. What I am talking about are custom moderation tools. I don`t readily know of any existing tools for what I`m looking for. I do know that phpBB and such do not have what I`m looking for.

One additional note...I`m not too concerned about the potential for the 'Downfall of Ax'. I might actually be pleased if the numbers were reduced from thousands to hundreds, but there were quality posters. It might actually be a good thing is another website (or two) popped up to replace the anonymity that Ax has offered up until this point. I can imagine things building back up to where they are now, just taking a few years. Just thought I`d share that.

So basically, of the hand full of AXers who call for anonymous identities to be banned from time to time, only a couple are willing to discuss the theory at length and what it will actually involve Brian doing.

Brian sets out a realistic, thought-out thesis and antithesis on the subject for everyone in detail but few have responded properly.

The people who make throw-away remarks about anonymous posters being bad, when it suits them, but refuse to or are unable to back up their argument should cease to make those remarks. Does that not make sense?

OK, I am not going to argue with anyone, I have discussed this with Brian and merely think it would be a better place without the timewasters who make silly comments about fighters, shows & promoters. need I say more? if we was all verified members then we could take a few people more seriously, I have my doubts about a few people on here, but I avoid them, and do not mention names so as not to cause a problem, I would like Ax verfied but as I said I have my own reasons, just a few are above.

Enough said, I have put my 2 p in.

Satankid, how you can classify the above post as a bullying tactic is silly!
And you do not cut mustard, you dip your knife in and spread it or or dollop it on your food.
Tony

As long as you could provide an assurance that personal data would be kept confidential and not passed to the nearest direct mailing company I don't see a problem with it in theory.

Ok, that is a good point Yug.

There would be a blurb (fine print) stating that no Ax Team member would divulge the contact information to anyone that isn't an Ax Team member. The Ax Moderators would be bound to that agreement. The assurance would hopefully be supported by my past history of not abusing the existing 2600+ registered user email accounts by selling it to a spam company. They pay good money for that type of list.

The only information that will be divulged publically would be the Real name and country fields in your profile.

I have some more ideas for this as well...
I would limit the degree to which 'visitors' can view the forum contents.

First, everyone`s profile information would not be viewable unless the viewer was a registered member.

The information below your name on your posts (Email, Website address) would not be seen unless the viewer was a registered member.

Second, the messages could only display up to a certain number of characters, then they would get cut off, unless the viewer was a registered member. For example, this post would only show the first two paragraphs or so. If you weren`t registered, you could generally follow the discussions, but it would become annoying unless you registered.

There has to be an ability to demo the contents of the website to passing visitors, or else nobody would consider registering.

Other projects, like the (eventual) fighters database, would not be viewable unless by a registered person.

Good idea Brian, I like the taster theory to get people interested whilst not letting them see the full post.

I dont think non verified members should be able to post as that would cause the same problems we have now. Its not topic creation that causes issues, its the posts within.

I feel full verification is needed for anyone to have even minimal input to the site, as one sentence can cause a LOT of damage.

Brian--

You have thought this out a lot, and I am glad. I still want to hear more people's thoughts on the pros and cons.

I am wondering if there is any way legally to indemnify anyone from being sued for libel (if you record it as a voice file and it is played, then I suppose it would be slander, but you're right....libel is printed). Does anyone know if other sites have anything that keeps people from being sued for libel? Also, do local laws apply or US laws since AX is based in the US? I also think the chances of lawsuits happening with a verified forum, while existent, would be unlikely since, as you said, we'd (hopefully) be building a more tight-knit community where people know each other, where stirrers aren't as present, and people would be less likely to say things they'd get sued for.

Also, the teaser idea is intriguing. I think there are some message forums that do that. I know the standard MSN-type "start your own club with message forum here" things do not permit you to view people's profiles at all unless you are a registered user. Also, Brian, to the existing 2600 AX members, you do, as you say, have a great reputation for protecting our privacy. But that reputation won't likely carry over to NEW members who don't know you or this site. I wonder if people who see the site for the first time are going to think "great, I can't even see the full message, nor even see the fighter database....they REALLY want me to give them my personal info.....WHY?" I think for new members, they would be automatically suspicious and reluctant to join. But can AX's reputation and word of mouth advertising we're so good at overcome that and still get newbies to join? I mean, most people probably DO join because someone at their gym who they know and trust recommends the site. Maybe that will grow AX regardless of new restrictions?

Anyway, sorry for the long post, but fortunately for y'all, my train of thought does have a caboose. Just some more thoughts to ponder or write off, as you see fit.

Tony,

"OK, I am not going to argue with anyone, I have discussed this with Brian and merely think it would be a better place without the timewasters who make silly comments about fighters, shows & promoters. need I say more?"

As far as I`m aware, this is a discussion, not an argument. How about elaborating on your point? Why do you think there is a connection between "timewasters who make silly comments about fighters, shows & promoters" and all anonymous posters?
Again, there are 2 issues being confused here- the issue of problematic posters and the issue of the principal of anonymous posters.

"if we was all verified members then we could take a few people more seriously, I have my doubts about a few people on here, but I avoid them, and do not mention names so as not to cause a problem,"

Who do you refer to when you say "WE could take a few people more seriously"? Who is WE? Are you speaking for everyone or yourself? If you are speaking for everyone who nominated you as the spokesperson? I certainly did not and I do not fail to take someone seriously merely on the basis of an anonymous ID.

"I would like Ax verfied but as I said I have my own reasons, just a few are above."

I still don't see any explained reasons in your post. My previous posts still apply.

"Enough said, I have put my 2 p in.
Satankid, how you can classify the above post as a bullying tactic is silly!"

It is silly because.....? Again, please elaborate. Aggresively telling someone that you are right and they are wrong simply because you say so is bullying tactics, don`t you think?

"And you do not cut mustard, you dip your knife in and spread it or or dollop it on your food.
Tony"

I was using a popular metaphor, not speaking literally. I appologise if I was not clear enough. However, that was not the subject of the sentence, anyway. I will put it another way- Being unable to back up your standpoint, or even attempt to, in a discussion means that the discussion cannot progress. Those who disagree with you cannot understand why you propose what you do, therefore different points of view cannot be considered. If this is the case then the discussion will grind to a halt and it will devolve into a case of 2 different groups simply declaring that they are right and the other is wrong. Therefore nothing can be resolved, ultimately, in terms of an understanding.

But since you have declared your intention not to back-up your standpoint, what you say should not have any bearing on the outcome.

Satankid

I think that if Brian decides to have a verified members only forum and follows it to his guidelines above, it will be too much work for him to be expected to do right now. I would much rather see the time spent on other AX projects such as the fighter database, off-topic forum, sports science forum etc.

Brian has made no secret that all this is a lot of work will take some time before it is up and running. I think this would be a far better priority than the proposed verified members only forum.

On a purely purely personal note, as I have said before, I would be unable to satisfy the criteria for verified registration, so would not be able to take part even if I wanted to.

Dude's, this is a biggie for Brian and AX, so I say we cut turning this thread into one big argument and try and help Brian out in this decision the best we know how - and bitchin among ourselves certainly isn't going to achieve anything -

image girl

Image Girl- We are not bitchin among ourselves, just trying to make sure that people`s opinions are clear. As you say, this is a big one for Brain and Ax, so it`s important that everyone presents their opinion concisely and methodically.

I dunno opinions aside there is still a huge technical problem on how to do it, I mean, I'm still not sure how you could every truly be sure. I.e. if I wanted to be Bill Smith, I register on here, give you my phone number, you ring me, 'Are you Bill Smith?', 'Yes of course.'

Even if we sent in photographic evidence, like a passport, that would need to be verified by someone who knew you, and then the whole thing gets a bit circular.

Good point from Satankid, what medium would you use for verification? There is no way I'd submit my credit card details or send a passport and I assume others would feel the same. Would this verification exclude honest posters who would not wish to be part of the particular method chosen? This would lead to some good people being blacklisted.

Imagine the work involved in this for Brian and other moderators? Would it be feasible to go to these lengths as it would take some serious work?

Maybe some are scared they will be held accountable for their actions. I have seen some promoters on here get attacked regularly but more powerful promoters who do worse matchups don't becos people are afraid to call them out.

Totally. I would think that lots of people would not feel comfortable giving those kind of details out to be part of an internet site.

Brian has my sister`s address from when he sent me something when I was staying in UK. Of course, I took a risk in choosing to give out that information. For all I knew Brian could have been some nutjob who would then procede to post my little sis` a turd in a box on a weekly basis- that`s why I gave him my sister`s address and not my mum`s address:)
However, I am pleased to report that Brian did not carry out the above scenario...

Many people would not choose to take that risk.

It could be said that if you do not take that risk then it is tough sh!t. But as Phil said, it would blacklist some good posters.
Again, I ask- would that be worth it just for the gratification of one group of posters?

My last post was agreeing with Phil, not Liars Nemesis.

brian maybe it time to call out for some more moderators im sure if there were a few more moderators to help watch this site a few more post mite go unread
how long would someone try to post stuff to stir someone if they new it would be taken down
cheers scotty

I've held back from commenting because I think we've covered all the bases.

How many people would feel gagged by everyone knowing their name, just like life outside the forum not everyone will see eye to eye on this or any other topic but I wouldn't want to see this or any other forum become a back slapping too afraid to disagree kind of place.

As the owner & creator of Ax I have no problem in Brian having my 'real'name but I still don't get why everyone else should.

If EVERYBODY used their real names there would be no issues. However, that is not likely even with the most high tech specifications. Therefore people will hide. If you were doing it for a bit of a laugh then fine hide behind a false name, but, to do things spitefully is a no no!

People are using false names because they do not wish to be attacked by another anonomous users or they are using anonomous names to attack genuine people!

Would it be possible for Brian to verify everyone before they are allowed to post? And then if the person chooses to post without revealing their true identity they can. This would still leave the person accountable for any libellous allegations or statements.

Hi Philip,

I haven't attacked anyone. Why should I be punished for someone elses stupidity. That doesn't make sense.

Yoda, sensible idea, it could be a long process though, again brings up the problem of what info to use to verify who we are.

I think the only way forward is different accessibilty options for those who choose to become verified and those who do not. This way people are still not excluded from the site but will only be able to make contributions at a certain level.

E I wasnt attacking you! Read my post again, I was contributing.

Yes, this is a discussion, but one should I have to be the only one to clarify my views to you?

I simply feel this would be a better place, I have nothing to hide as a member, I posted my comments on the subject and certainly did not expect for one member to want me to justify myself, blimey I bet if you had a spotlight Satankid, it would be pointed at my face?LOL

I am not trying to speak for anyone but myself, so when I said "We" I didn't mean it to be taken so badly by you Satankid.

Next that was not a bullying tactic on my part, nor was I forcing my thoughts down your throat in any manner, you seem to have taken an exception to me and my thoughts, but that is your problem and not mine in any respect.

As for the "Mustard issue" (This may sound silly, but read on I have a point to this) Satankid, you may have been using a common saying, I merely joked about it, my point? everyone's views are different on any matter in life, whether you spread, cut, dip or dollop. I posted that comment in order to get a reply from you, not to belittle you, but to help you understand my thoughts from a different stand point.

"Life is a game of chess and I moved a piece in order to help the game along :-)"

No one person will have exactly the same views as another, I think this would be a better place for verified members, the fact that I stay clear of a few people on here is my own business, "But" I was mentioning it as a point to my thoughts & views as to why members should be verified JMHO.

Why should anyone have to have abuse from another person? I have always wanted the best for British Muay Thai (No disrespect to any other style or country on here, I enjoy speaking to you all) But it is time to get behind our lads and ladies as fighters, promoters, students and teachers & followers, members without profiles who post crappy and pointless comments about others are merely a waste of space on an otherwise bloody fantastic site that provides a community with a valuble source of info.

Satankid, if you think I am a bully, again not my problem!

I do not want to sidetrack from this subject at all, so in my view, we should have verified members and as I said I would be very happy to help in whatever way possible as I enjoy using Ax.

I am in no way trying to have a go at anyone Satankid, so please don't take offence!

Thanks for reading this post........

Tony.

Hi Philip,

Problem with the net is we can't indicate tone well, we have to hope we have been clear in our meaning - and that our message doesn't get understood in another way which is often the case!

"People are using false names because they do not wish to be attacked by another anonymous users or they are using anonymous names to attack genuine people!"

While like you say you haven't flamed me, but by the above statement, me not filling in my profile seems to automatically put me under suspicion
I seem to have joined Ax at a bad time when you have quite a few issues to sort out. I've not read all the threads but those I have I haven't seen any problems with.

If I could ask a Q. In your opinion how many Ax members are posting crap - just so I've an idea on how big the problem is?

Ok, now we`re talking. I appreciate all of you contributing to the discussion. Honestly, this really does help me.

In the midst of these discussions, other ideas have arisen.
Two compromises have been suggested...

- Verification that provides true identity to the Ax Moderators, but not published publically. This is a compromise that suggests providing the best of both scenarios. We (ax) would know their identity, but the rest of the world would not. But, would this really help with the issues? At a quick glance, it would seem to deter people from registering, yet the Axer would still not be any more accountable for their comments than before. What if someone had a legal dispute with something said about them on Ax? We wouldn`t give out their identity without a court order. The only benefit of Ax (alone) having their identity is to prevent people from re-registering after they have been banned. That could be useful, but at what cost? Is that worth deterring new registrations just for that alone?

- Having two levels of registration...normal and verified. This was the original idea that I had for the Verified Axer concept. This is another compromise which would allow un-verified Axers to contribute to the forum in some limited way. MattJ brought up the point that there would be a large gap between visitors and registered users and passers-by would probably wonder why they should register. This cites another deterrent for new memberships. The potential for this idea lies greatly in the details. What would be limited? From a moderation standpoint, would it still be possible for Axers to abuse their anonymity? Perhaps there would be an increase in abuse of anonymity just to spite the whole "Verified Axer" concept.

...Here`s an idea.

Taking that concept of two levels of Ax registration (verified, non-verified)...perhaps there could be an option for non-verified users to have their posts reviewed before they are sent. This would require some volunteers to read new posts. People could contribute, even to the same forum, but their posts would be delayed heavily. Imagine posting a message only to have it actually get published 1-2 days later. It is doable...but tedious.

I`ll explain more on that idea and on details for how verification would work in a bit...I`m at work right now and I`m quite busy. I`ll post again on my lunch break.

Hi All:

I am all for verification of some type but still being able to retain anonimity as a poster if choose to do so.

I do think that some of the fun / character banter might leave us if everyone had to post under their real ID. There is nothing wrong with humour, and vigourous ribbing up to the point where it doesn't become personal.And I'd be reluctant to lose that colour on Ax. Sometimes when two people claerly rub people up the wrong way and can debate with humour and "strong spirited" logic, that is as good as "Days of Our Lives" or "Coro Street" i'd be reluctant to lose that also.

The verfication process: I think that would simply have the effect of detering shitstirrer, simply because they are now responsible to someone (if only the ax moderation team).

I had a major issue towards the end of last year with an anonymous poster hacking / or using my computer which caused me no end of stress. As it looked the world like the crap that was coming from this person's mouth came from my machine. Fortunately Brian and co were able to nip it in the bud pretty early (after about 3 days I think)and I had to get an IT geek to come in and give my computer a complete overhaul. But the point is had that person had to verify his ID there would never have been as issue in the first place.

The major question for Brian is expense of going through the verification process, and ensuring security of that information.

On the moderation front - I do think regionalised moderators should be used as well as the current team as we all tend to be region centric in the majority of threads we post on. So having some one for example who is a kiwi/ aussie keeping an eye on Australasian threads would be useful and proably lessen the pressure on the moderation team to get aropund everything.

And Tony Haye "And you do not cut mustard, you dip your knife in and spread it or or dollop it on your food." LOL, I think that is bloody funny and gets and interesting point across at the same time.

But mike you were the MASTERDON.HeHe

Ha ha very funny grasshopper, But the Masterdon had a major small penis issue which he was compensating for. I on ther other hand came to terms with my inadequacies in that area long ago, hung like a misquito and proud. (LOL)

However this is not a personal thread but a constructive one so I'll avoid any further comment other than revenge is a dish best served cold!

There are lots of creative ways to verify someone`s identity. None of them are 100%. That is why there is identity theft. In the United States, Identity theft is a federal offense. It is not a small issue. If you commit identity theft, it is not as simple as breaking one of Ax`s rules. Of course, that law applies to U.S. Axers. I`m sure there are similar laws in other countries as well. Then again, perhaps some countries won`t have strict laws regarding identity theft. I would have to research a bit.

The process of the verification process will be determined by the information given by the Axer (or potential Axer). For example, if someone provides a cell phone number, or a work number, then it will be likely that we can`t use it for verification, by itself. If we are provided a regular home telephone number that is NOT an unlisted number, then we can look it up in phone listings as well as call the number and ask for that person`s name. If they provide a mailing address, then we can look up that address to see if that name can be associated with it on any publically accessible records. (Over time, we will develop the resources to look this stuff up in each country, there are a lot of resources on the internet for this type of thing). If we find a way to link their name to that address, then we may also send the person`s password to them in the mail, just to further verify that the person by that name lives at that house.

We could also consider sponsorship, where an existing verified Axer says "Yeah, That is him...and he lives at that address, and that is his phone number". There would be a lot of examples where sponsorship would come into play, such as in gyms that have multiple Ax memebers within it. Of course, the sponsor is taking responsibility. They would not necessarily be responsible for that sponsee's actions, but they would be responsible for their identity. If it turns out that person`s name, address or phone number were incorrect, then the sponsor could risk losing their Ax account. The sponsorship would be in combination with actually making a phone call or mailing them the password to their account.

Cost/Resources : I can call most major countries at 5-10 cents a minute. A verification call might take 2-5 minutes. That is 50 cents at the worst. If it is a cell phone, often the long distance charges are higher, like 20-25 cents a minute. This is where I would consider Ax moderators living in that region to be doing the verification process. In the worst case scenario, if I had to do it myself, that is not so bad.

Let`s say that 500 Axers sign up for verified Ax accounts in the first 6 months.
Let`s say that I had to make all of the calls myself and the average long distance charge was 15 cents a minute while the average call time is 5 minutes long. That is 75 cents. That would be $375...worst case scenario. That doesn't include the reality that long distance charges would probably be less (I have a long distance card where I can call anyone in England for 5 cents a minute. There are deals like this all over the internet) and it doesn`t include the use of existing moderators to make these verification calls. It also doesn`t consider that 500 is a high number. I would expect that number to be more like 100-150, at best.

Plus, I can accept donations for this process. I know that there are some Axers out there that are so supportive of an identity verification process for Ax that they wouldn`t mind dishing out a few bucks to help.

But let`s say that these ideas didn`t work. Let`s say there is an Axer that is trying to register but he`s giving me some weird information, like an address with a suite number and he swears that his place of business and his home are the same...and the same goes for his phone number...but nothing is in his name because he is technically working for someone else. Or maybe they are renting a room from someone and so the phone number and the address can`t be linked to their name very easily. I could call the place and ask for "Joe Bob" and he could make sure that anyone answering the phone knows that "Joe Bob" is him. Or, perhaps I can`t seem to get in touch with him. I always get an answering machine. Perhaps this is someone trying to find holes in the verification system. Then I could try other measures, such as (as someone mentioned) credit card verification. Though, if someone is located in another country outside of the US, then even credit card verification is limited.

At this point, I would have to consider other verification methods that I haven`t researched as of yet. I know there are lots of verification options to choose from, however. Some of which use services which cost money. I would have to research that and weigh the pros and cons of those options. I would also have to research a bit on identity theft laws in other countries.

LOL, Thank you Mike, I am here all week try the Veal (as said by Shrek in his movie) :-)

Brian I would be happy to help with moderation, I am working from all day from home running my Akita Rescue Centre, so I am on hand if you need it, even if means not posting anymore in order to help out.

Regards,
Tony.

I`ll also respond to the community backlash/blacklist response to posts made on Ax.

The complaint reads like this : If people were forced to post using their real identities, then they would be afraid to post as they could risk receiving a backlash from their peers, their coach, or promoters.

This is a real important issue. Though, I think the heart of the problem is misunderstood. It seems to me that this is a big issue that happens in a lot of regions where people exist that are not used to public attention. I know that there are a lot of a trainers who have given their students flack for posting certain opinions on Ax. That is a form of censorship. In this scenario, Ax would not be the one providing this censorship. The trainer is the one providing the censorship. There have been plenty of people who have already avoided posting on Ax for fear of this type of backlash. There have been incidents where a trainer/promoter has pressured someone into asking me to remove their comments. Personally, I think that is ridiculous. I think that people should stick by what they have to say. I think that we all need to realize that we all see things from different, but valuable, perspectives.

So this problem exists already, even without verified accounts. If you say too much then eventually someone that you know will find out who you are, or try to. This is a huge deal in England where, evidently, things are so cut-throat that a handful of posters (probably fighters, trainers or competing promoters) have tried to talk crap about people using anonymous identities and everyone freaks out about it and tries to figure out who that person is. It`s become like a game.

So, basically I feel that we should target those issues directly rather than trying to skate around them with anonymous identities. I understand where the pro-anonymity people are coming from. It is unfortunate that people abuse anonymous accounts, and that has caused me to approach this topic.

I should also add to this comment "I think that people should stick by what they have to say." by saying that we also must understand a degree of responsibility for the things that we say. I think the two ideas go hand in hand.

I just had another thought...if there were to be a shift to verified accounts, then there could be a 2-3 month process of verification where people`s names would have a "V" next to their name if they were a vegetarian entree....I mean if they were a verified Axer :-P

Then verified and non-verified people would exist on the same board for a few months until enough people verified and then it would switch to verified-only access. During that 2-3 month period, people would be voting with their participation. For example, if only 20 people signed up to be verified, then I would probably drop the whole idea and revert to some kinda of plan B. If 100 people or more signed up to be verified, that would be enough for me to want to switch.

Just some thoughts.

Tony

First of all let me clarify- I`m not having a go at you personally. As I said in my original post to you, it`s not just you that has not backed up their viewpoint. It`s just that you happened to have posted on this thread at that time so I addressed you.
I mean no offence either.

As I said, you do not 'need' to back up your viewpoint to me at all. But it would help in trying to gain an understanding of why you hold the opinion you do. Otherwise, what`s the point of engaging in a discussion?

I like your chess metaphor- but if one person refused to move at all the game would not get very far, don`t you think.

I do not wish to be tarred with the same brush as any problematic posters that may happen to be anonymous. I am an individual and I speak for myself and no-one else. When I read a person`s post I read it with respect to that person being an individual and do not lump them together with someone else with similar views.

I believe you have your equation muddled on this subject. Blending the issue of problematic posters and the one of the principle of anonymous posters does not solve anything. There are many good posters on here who are anonymous. Do you agree? If so, you should be able to see that you have done the maths wrong.

I like the spotlight idea, though- I'll have to get one and shine it at the computer when I read your posts! LOL
Ve do have vays of making you talk ;)

I did not call you a bully but I do believe that telling someone that you are right just because you say so is a bullying tactic, whoever uses it.

How far would you be willing to help Brian if he decided to do this? Would you take on ALL the work he has said would have to be done?

Cheers

Ps.. actually, I scoop my mustard :)

Philip writes:

"If EVERYBODY used their real names there would be no issues. However, that is not likely even with the most high tech specifications. Therefore people will hide. If you were doing it for a bit of a laugh then fine hide behind a false name, but, to do things spitefully is a no no!

People are using false names because they do not wish to be attacked by another anonomous users or they are using anonomous names to attack genuine people!"

It is very judgemental claiming that people 'hide' behind aliases. There are many reasons why someone uses an alias- It could well be that they want to have a pop at someone without them knowing who they are but that is just a minority.

Other reasons may be that they are shy, lack confidence and do not want people to judge them rather than their post itself. They may just not want to give out their name as they do not feel comfortable doing so. It is not just Anonymous posters that attack people either! An anonymous poster may be afraid of being attacked by a poster with a verified identity.

I have posted my thoughts, no I do not think my maths are wrong at all.
I would be willing to help Brian in whatever capacity needed, as long as I knew I could do the work load given and not let him or Ax down!

"I hate Mustard"

Cheers,
T.

Tony,
is that Akita as in Akita rescue dogs?

"It is not just Anonymous posters that attack people either!"

Another good point. Just because there would be no anonymous Axers would not mean that problems of attacking would go away. A lot of existing "Named" people have participated in slagging matches with other "Named" people. Most of the time, it is with someone who is anonymous (in my observations), but not always.

There are also the people who lack confidence that would not want to participate in the forum if it required verification. In my opinion, however, those people don`t really participate much with an anonymous identity. I`m more concerned about pressures from trainers upon students than I am of people who are simply shy. In a way, allowing an anonymous identity enables their shyness rather than helping them to grow past it. In the end, they are still shy and they still don`t do much to participate.

"Blending the issue of problematic posters and the one of the principle of anonymous posters does not solve anything. There are many good posters on here who are anonymous."

I see what you are saying, and I agree with it mostly, but I wouldn`t exactly say that it doesn`t solve anything. Speaking from a moderator persepctive, at least 60-70% of the problems stem from the actions of anonymous posters. That still leaves a big 30-40% left over. Like I said before, there are still problems with "named" Axers breaking Ax policies.

However, here is another way of looking at it. I believe that issues can be more easily dealt with if I`m moderating a "named" individual rather than an anonymous one. Here`s why...I try to utilize psychology a lot in my moderation. In non-simple issues, I try to evaluate the person`s situation and I try to understand their perspective. I believe that most people that break rules do not have bad intentions. Most of the time, they are just not considering the rules, or they don`t even know or understand the rules. I try to understand what made them break the rule. Perhaps they felt they were defending themselves. Perhaps they were defending their school/gym/trainer/fighter. Perhaps they didn`t really think of their comments as an insult. Either way, it helps for me to know things about the person. If I`m dealing with an anonymous identity, then most of the time I`m forced to treat them like a number.

Here is yet another thing to consider with regard to that...
One of the major benefits of having a verified forum is to attract more people who are in the business to participate, aka "stars". Since they are known already, it would be easy to verify their identities and they would get registered quickly. In fact, a lot of fighters would probably already have their name reserved for them (another registration addition that I had mentioned in the other thread). The reason they would be more likely to participate is because of the PERCEPTION that most fighters have of anonymous internet people. I`ve personally seen a lot of examples, mostly on other forums, of anonymous internet identities attacking known fighters who decide to participate on the forums. If you ever hear fighters talking about the internet, they often refer to a bunch of "punks and 13 year olds talking smack". If you are anonymous and you aren't a "punk" then that`s great. In fact, most anonymous posters are probably decent people. However, you must understand the group that you are associated with has people in it that abuse their anonymity. A few roten apples spoil the bunch. This generalization is not fair, but that is the compromise that you make when you choose to be anonymous. You cannot stand up and be counted. The only people that gain attention are the handful of loudmouths.

I can think of a good analogy for this. You ever hear women say that "Men are all assholes, all they think about is sex, and they are all egotistical, narcissistic bastards who start fights"...or something along those lines. Well, I can say that most of the men that I`ve met do not fall into that description. The ones who are shy, reserved, keep to themselves, don`t even go out to bars, don`t go to parties very often, don`t even drink a whole lot, don`t date very often, read a lot and are very introverted...these men get overshawdowed by the ones who go to bars regularly and get drunk and hit on women constantly and get into fights. You don`t hear anything from the shy men. In fact, the women rarely get to meet them. Thus, the generalization gets formed. This is very similar to the issues of anonymous posters.

Yes Power House!

You are right Brian, it is not just unknown users who attack others, but at least there would be no hiding for them, would there?

If I have something negative to say about a person, I do not say it, unless I really feel I need to or it is totally justified on my part (Like if they have attacked me in any way, shape or form), but then I would rather say it to their face, then be a coward and hide from them.

I guess I might be very different to most people, I do not feel the need to hide what I have to say to others or hide from them.

At the end of the day, you have to do what is best for this website and those who use it!
Tony.

Out of interest, how many people have been banned/overstepped the mark when their identities have been known to all.

Would there be any point verifying when all it needs is one post to do the damage, which would be removed anyway. This post would be input whether it be now and how AX currently works or in the future with a verification process in place, and it would be there for all to see, no matter how temporarily.

Have I explained myself properly there or does it not make sense (Im coming to the end of a long day and my brain is slowing down!)

I`ll use your example Phil..

Let`s say someone gets their account verified and they post an obviously damaging comment toward someone. As a verified user, everyone knows who it is that is making the comment. If it is some nobody, no big deal. The post gets removed and we go through the proper moderation steps (removing the message, suspending the account, emailing the user, discussing the rules with them.) If it is promoter or fighter making the comments about one of their competitors, then everyone will see it for what it is (at least those who read the comment before it got removed by moderation). If they don`t agree to the Ax rules, or if their account is turned back on but they go and do it again, their account will be shut down indefinitely.

Since we would have verification in place, they would not be able to sneak in another Ax account unless they committed identity fraud, which is illegal in the U.S. and most countries.

If this scenario happened with the system as it works today, they might be able to take advantage of our limited resources (moderation and time for programming new functions into the moderation control panel) and re-register. Technically, they could re-register over, and over, and over and over... and the only option we would have is to attempt to contact their Internet Provider to file a complaint of abuse. Most ISP`s state that in their usage policy, but whether they enforce their policy is up to them.

Oh...In extreme cases, or as a last resort, we could also block their IP (if they use a static IP address) or block their ISP altogether. That is not something that I want to do, plus even that is not fool-proof.

"How many people have been banned..."

I don`t have those statistics. I`d have to compile them, or have Andras do it, and we`re both really too busy right now. I`m making time for this discussion, but that`s all I have. I`m working 60 hour weeks right now with this new job.

The percentage that I used earlier to compare Ax trouble-makers, whether they were anonymous or named, was just from my memory.

One thing I keep hearing is that some of the examples put forward rely on one thing to make them work. Volunteer moderators, the ideas would work if they come on board. If not they wo'nt.

The comment stating that emotion can be difficullt to portray accuratly in text is a great point. There are so many varibles that it really is very is subjective at best. It can be wrongly interpruted due to language barriors, education, bad spelling Ha! and many more grey areas. IMO

I respond differantly to posters that use their own name. I can control my involvment level myself with the anonymous posters, do'nt allow them to bait you if thats what you suspect.

Thats cool Tony I like Akitas they are big tough dogs I have an American Staffordshire Terrier and we are doing shutzhund training with him and I am really enjoy it guess I am showing my age huh! One of my friends in the Nz police force has a Akita and swears it is a great shutzhund dog what sort of rescue work are you doing with them.Also his dog caught an intruder on his property and left a nice big bite mark on his ass so Akitas sound the goods dont they.
Osu!

Brian, that was another point I wanted to make.

Do you realise the workload you are going to put on yourself? The resource spent in both time and finance will be huge. I know you have mentioned approximations of call time, expense etc, but the reality in these cases often far outweighs the projection!

Just make sure you dont take on too much as it is very easy for something that you love to become something that you hate, and in this case it will be this website as your intrinsic reward will be nil.

I am all for verification but what cannot be alllowed to happen is that only a quarter of the initial applicants are verified and then the project gets put on the back burner, meaning these well intentioned verified people will be chastised whilst the remaining anonymous users can inflame and infuriate at will.

I can imagine the problems you have had with Ax additions such as fighter database, events page etc due to communications, time constraints and all manner of other problems. I just feel the same thing could happen here, through no fault of anybody, but simply because you, Andras etc. have lives to lead outside of Ax which should(!)take up most of your time, and after all Ax brings no financial gain and is in reality a serious hobby.

The best laid plans of Mice and Men gang aft agley!

POWERHOUSE
The best dog on the planet (I'm biased) comes from down under.

Don't want to off topic as I feel Brian and others would not be best pleased, I have a forum on Akita's, but yes they are great dogs, powerful and loyal, strong of heart and very proud and head strong at the same time!

Powerhouse, I take in problem dogs or dogs that need a new home, do we give up on people that have a problem? No we help them, which is why I set up my rescue Centre, Akita's as a breed are very mis-understood, but I also take in DDB's and American Bulldogs.

Thanks for your thoughts,
Tony.

The process of verification would be temporarily painful, but then it would level off. Wouldn`t you think? It could be a good investment of time. That`s how I`m looking at the entire idea. It would have an initial downside, but then there might be a light at the end of the tunnel (for once).

I don`t think I could allow myself to put that type of project on hold. I think if it started, I would be forced to follow it through until it leveled out. I don`t think it would take long to do that (level off).

Brian,

Let's say that you decide to go ahead with this idea... I have no telephone landline, post from various internet cafes, change my address from time to time and have only yahoo and hotmail accounts. I would not satisfy any of the criteria so how would I be able to continue posting?


Another idea to add to the pile is that things stay the same as they are.... Then, if someone repeatedly makes problems you let their IP address known to everyone on the board. Those who want to can then do their own detective work to find out the person's identity. A kind of hall of shame.

I would have thought that releasing an IP address into the public domain could lead to some malicious person doing some nasty stuff to the offenders PC, which Brian would be held accountable for, and would probably lead to the enforced closure of Ax and Brian being sued!

Gareth...good example. For one, let`s admit that you would be an exception. But, it is important to consider the exceptions when trying to formulate a process.

Let`s consider the purpose of the process. All that I want to do is verify that you are who you say you are. If your address or phone numbers change a lot...that is ok. All I would need to do is verify your identity. I don`t exactly have to be able to get in touch with you at all times, or know exactly where you live at all times. Those things can change.

There are options. First of all...where are you now? England or Japan? If you are in England, there are more options, because you are probably a permanent resident of England, while you probably have just a work visa for Japan. If you are in Japan, it could be difficult. Do you have any kind of ID while you are in Japan? Do you have a British license? How about a passport? Would there be a verified Axer in England or Japan who could sponsor you? If they say "Yes, I swear that he is Gareth Yeulet", then I would provide that person (the sponsor) with a verification code. They would then present the code to you, and you would present it to me, verifying that you the person that the sponsor was talking about.

At this point in time, I have not done indepth research on the options to verify people in different countries. I think that if someone is telling the truth about their identity, then we would find a way to do it eventually. If someone gave me too much difficulty in verifying their name, I would probably suspect an attempt of false identity. Someone might also be difficult as a way of actively complaining about the verification process. I suspect that a large percentage would be easily identifiable. The more difficult ones would have to present me with more information about their circumstances. I already know some of your circumstances (bouncing between England and Japan throughout the year).

If I find out more options, I`ll tell you what I`ve come up with.

Publicizing IP addresses oftentimes doesn`t do anything. It really depends on how they are connecting. For example, I`m connecting to Ax through a coffee shop`s free wireless internet connection. I walk into the coffee shop using a laptop that I borrowed from work. I turn on the laptop and browse the available internet connections and voila! I`m online. The coffee shop has no clue who I am. This isn`t even my laptop.

As a website owner, I could block that IP of the coffee shop, which would still be lame because what if other people accessed Ax through that coffee shop? But, a common reader of the forum wouldntt be able to do anything with this IP that I`m using right now (at the coffee shop) unless they wanted to track it down to the location and meet me here to confront me or something. That`s not cool.

In that case, Phil is probably right. The website could be liable for something like that happening after publishing an IP address. I could imagine a website owner being taken to court over that. There would be a couple of differences between the liability with that and the liability with a verified Ax account. 1) Their real names would only be viewable by other verified Ax members. 2) By registering, they would be consenting to publishing their real identity and country location to other verified Ax members. This is similar to a phone book listing, except a phone book listing provides much more information than a verified Ax account would. A person`s agreement with a phone book company to have their name, phone and address published is far more dangerous than a verified Ax account.

Okay I have something to say but I feel we are all in the dark with out knowing these stats.

1.) Out of the 2600 ax accounts how many of them are anonymous?

2.) Out of that number how many of them were malicious posters?

3.) How many people have been banned whom were not anonymous?

As I stated earlier in the thread, I don`t have those stats tallied.

We already know your stance. Just say what you have to say.