k1 disgrace

Last night I watched the K1 and was totally disgusted. Several reasons
firstly being that they were putting totally out of shape old boxers (retired) against top K1 fighters. They were unfamiliar with the rules as they always have been. This was well demonstrated when Botha struck his opponent on the floor a few months ago and then last night on eurosport you had illegal throws and strikes to the back of the head from Mercer. I found the whole thing a disgrace to watch. It is not good action or even fair fights. They were all one sided events like putting novices in there with skilled world class fighters. If the K1 must proceed with this line of fights then why not put quality top boxers in there that at least stand a chance. I hated watching last night and I much prefer even matched skilled fighters. Last night is right on the border of being a total joke.

also another point. Why does Mushashi get referred to as a Seido Karate practioner. Clearly he is a thai boxer. He threw one seido move last night!!! when will they admit that he is a thai boxer with the style of an art derived in Thailand. I admit that originally when you watched him fight in the early days he had a lot of Sedio moves but now he is an all out Thai boxer. Only short on elbows!!! and a bloody good heavyweight THAI BOXER at that!!!

Many of us in the UK have originated from other styles but Mushashi is a total metamorphisis! I started doing ninjitsu, boxing, wrestling etc etc when I was younger but now I only do and teach Thai boxing because that is what I like. There has to be a point when you have to admit that the origin of the style he uses is Thai not japanese. Wouls like views on this.

sorry alan but musashi is a seido karate/kickboxer
now if musashi was crap you guys wud be calling him a kickboxer/karateka,... just becos he is good hes now being called a thaiboxer!!!

some of my guys occasioanlly fight thai and take the occasioanl thai fight does that mean that they are thaiboxerS?
NOPE

Also there are two gyms in my town , both fight thai buyt one is more traditional the more traditional gym says (or used to say) about the other gym " oh theyre kickboxers,.. were purists" etc,...

Totally agree with alan about the fights last night,they were an absolute joke ,poor old ray mercer hes 43 and hasnt been seen in top level action for years and had clearly had no martial arts schooling of any description,and all of a sudden hes up against one of the best fighters on the k1 circuit,what the hell is that about ,and as for the ignashov fight that was the biggest joke ive seen in any top level sporting event.having said that the aerts fight was a bloody good tear up!

no you are wrong nad have misread what I said.

Clearly you dont like thai boxers by your comments and what I said was not that he fought well as a kickboxer in a thai based rules tournament but his whole style was thai boxing and you know it. Admit it for once!!! he is now a thai boxer. His clinch, kicks and boxing were all thai style so just admit it!! what do you call kickboxing farhad? it IS a set of rules not a style! the style last night and the last few fights was Muay Thai. Andy Hug was a Seido practioner Ill give you that and a bloody good one but Mushashi is now a Thai Boxer!

no you are wrong nad have misread what I said.

Clearly you dont like thai boxers by your comments and what I said was not that he fought well as a kickboxer in a thai based rules tournament but his whole style was thai boxing and you know it. Admit it for once!!! he is now a thai boxer. His clinch, kicks and boxing were all thai style so just admit it!! what do you call kickboxing farhad? it IS a set of rules not a style! the style last night and the last few fights was Muay Thai. Andy Hug was a Seido practioner Ill give you that and a bloody good one but Mushashi is now a Thai Boxer!

thankyou ian bang on mate!!! Farhad is of on one again and has got the wrong end of the stick. He thinks that im against kickboxers/ katate but i am not!! the fact is that Mushashi is now a Thai Boxer and he doesnt like it. Anyway I just thought when does Mushashi fight in a kickboxing rules tournament anymore? he fights as he does now all the time ..... Thai Boxing

alan keddle:
please dont try to start an arguyment just over a difference in opinion

i dont dislike thaiboxers
one of my best mates is a thaiboxer

also i like thaiboxing i even watch thaiboxing!

musashi figths K-1 rules which to me IS a style of kickboxing.

what to you is kickboxing alan?
i.e. what kind of view do you have of kickboxing?

i teach my students to kick with the shin, i teach my students to punch like boxers, i also teach ( what liuttle i know admittedly) a bit of clinching and kneeing (not a lot i admit) , i even teach elbows for self defence

so if you think i can call my lot thaiboxers then please say so

These 'celebrity' matches can only benefit the promoter - and then only in the short term. Its walking a tightrope between entertainment and respect.

Still, if K1 goes the way of WWF, at least it gave us the Butterbean low kick!

Alan,

k-1 heavyweights is becoming a joke
but there are alot of good fighters on there too
they just made it a bit of a clown college recently and i'm kinda losing interest in the heavies

max is where it's at ;)

I have the utmost respect for fighters in the K-1, Don't get me wrong... Anyone who fights in the ring in Muay Thai or Muay K-1 or any full contact combat sport with little protection, deserves respect but the K1 corp have been doing this to target non fight fans and get more general public awareness and frankly, it's working

Alot of people know im into Muay thai and k1 and stuff and even though they're not, they ask me about it because they hear of the big bob sapp etc....
Is it a bad thing that our sport gets exposure? does the ends justify the means?

I'll let you guys decide :)

Alan, Do you have a guy called Adam Fenwick training with you?

Alan,
I thought the same as you watching last night, washed up has beens, younger boxers maybe would have given a better account of themselves, but Iggy showed even the traditional boxing stance is an easy open target for low kicks and body kicks.It was pitiful to watch!

Farhad. if thats what you are teaching them, then they are thai boxers.

Sid:

Thank you for your recognition,.. but when all the thaiboxing world start recognising us a thai gym then ill start calling us Team Ali Thai boxing

until then we will remain kickboxers

then kick with your padded feet, dont clinch, dont knee and defo dont elbow!

If I choreographed my shadow boxing to music then my students would be doing thai-bo. regardless of the sign over the door saying MT.

LOL!!!

me personally i AM a kickboxer :P

i dont clinch (excpet when sparring my lads who fight thai) i dont knee unless the sparring partner allows me to,..
naah i only elbow on a saturday night if some druink bastard has pissed me off :P

naah just kidding,..

no really,. i will continue to compete kickboxing,...
BUT we generally allow clinching and knees in sparring,...
some of my students will wear shin and insteps in sparring becoz they dont wanna get theyre shins all black and blue,...

only some students,.. theres about 5 or 6 which will wear footpads,... out of those ppl theres only 2 of them wholl say " no kick above waist,... kick above waist!!!"

and we all respect each others styles,..

fair enough.

Topic - K1 Disgrace

what's in a name?

When I first started out, I used boxing, elbows, knees and kicked with the shin, was it thai boxing? no, we used elements of it.

As for last nights K-1, I'm in the middle really, I want to see good quality fights but at the same time I admit being drawn to watch fights like, Nortje and Erickson wail on each other, if those boxers want to come in, get hit and get paid, fair enough, as it seems to draw in a more diverse crowd which seems to be what they want, I too want to see the best against the best and not just beat up on someone who doesn't seem to have much knowledge of the sport but if we look outside to boxing many of the top guys go from a tough fight to a can. The long term damage does concern me though..

and yes it is a disgrace

i think that danny williams Vs ernesto hoost wud be a good match

or even vitali kltischko vs alexander ignashov would be too

Started watching as they were showing the replay of Iggy kicking his opponents head and then chopping him down, I thought 'nice one Iggy' without knowing who his opponent was. Then found out it was a boxing v K1 night and thought 'here we go, boxers hobbling around after 2 minutes with smashed up legs.'

To be fair though, Botha put up a decent show against Remy, the reigning champ, and had him in trouble a couple of times. Botha also landed a couple of kicks as well.

The joke bout was Ray 'jabs but does nothing else' Mercer against Musashi. Poor bloke, tough as anything to last the 3 rounds especially as his legs took a fearsome pounding, but really a blatant mismatch. I do think the boxers are getting better though, the more exposure to K1 they have.

Tyson must be about to appear at some point in the next couple of years. I wonder how he will react to being clinched and kneed at the same time, as well as kicked. Not too well I fear, would be worth watching though, which is what K1 comes down to all in all.

Has Shannon Briggs had any other K1 fights as I always felt he was a half decent boxer?

it's alexei ignashov

I think that ignashov v musashi would be a good fight or even aerts v lebanner,whats wrong with seeing these classic k1 fights ,and if people do come across from other disciplines build them into it slowly and give them some schooling in martial arts and then when there skills warrant fighting a top k1 fighter get the fight on.ive also seen the same mismatches in k1 mma with people like mike macdonald with little submission fighting experiance being put in with top level mma fighters its obvious whose gonna win as soon as it goes to the ground,i think the matchmaking seriously needs to be looked at if they want k1 to be taken seriously in the public eye.

Fads:

Off topic a bit sorry guys - just to answer fads q!
Yeah Adam does train with Alan/Keddles - he's not actually 'Fenwick' though - he's 'Willoughby' - Rich and Adam are half brothers hence why they look completely different!!! Did you meet him in thailand? He must of been out there same time as you.

Yep Adam missed out on the Ginger Gene!

yeah we trained together at Kaew for a couple of days and he mentioned he trained at keddles :)

Can you send him my regards if you see him? Thanks Hunks :)

Fads: well won't be seeing him for a while cause in oz, but will let him know when email him

Unless JD will instead... that is if he can remember what the gym looks like!!! (that's Rich's msg for ya!)

Anyways - sorry for the off topic Al!!

Farhad it is not me that is the contraversial one!! I stated you were anti thai boxing because of your comment 'you guys'referring to us thai boxing lot' Howver farhad it sounds to me like you are fact becoming a thai boxer!!! I concur with sid. I have heard from 2 sorces that you have quite a flair for teaching therefore you dont neccarsarily have to have done the clinchwork yourself to be able to teach it. Many of the instructors in uk have never fought or even trained in Muay Thai (NOT MT like vanders puts it disrespectively) i dont neccesarily agree with that but thats the way it is. Also I liked fads uptake on the situation. good call.

I want to propose this situation to all axers...
if we sacrifice rules and styles for the sake of publicity then we are being fools to ourselves. If i wanted to get on a sport that is paid loads of money and is well publisised then i would box. I use to do boxing and was set to go far but I liked the knees, elbows, clinch and kicks of thai boxing as I found it more complete, more so with cage fighting. If we have to sacrifice the weopons we use for publicity then I am NOT interested. Go back to the drawing board guys and think about why you started martial arts. Did you do it for money or fame?? we should stick to our guns with the real martials arts and if people dont want to watch it then thats fine by me. I dont think we should sacrifice clinch, elbow or knee for the sake of viewing (the thai boxers that is!). Next thing you know we will all have shin pads then kicks wont be allowed. Where does it stop. For me Muay Thai is FULL THAI RULES. as soon as we start to deviate then we detract from the sport that we started in to begin with. I loved the fact I did something different when i started and I dont like the WWF approach that is becoming our sport. Think back to the beggining and qusetion where are we going with it. This is the reason I like to go to Thailand regularly to remind myself of how things should be and how talented these guys really are. some of them have absolutely nothing and what a joy they are to watch. Just remember why you started!!!!

hmmm interesting views alan
everyone has different views and opinions and thank you for your complement on my flair for teaching.
it would be most interesting to know who these 2 sources were but thank you to those two sources who ever they might be.


The thing is Alan,
1. im not anti thaiboxing, im not quite a thaiboxer, but if someone refers to me as one then im grateful for the complement and for the accpetance by that particular crowd. Zebedee once said to me "welcome to our world" when he heard i took part in a MT interclub for fun.
I have also been described as a Taekwondo stylist by the Taekwondo ppl becoz i have outkicked TKD ppl at theyre own game! so thats a complement too.
Now if i get referred to as a boxer by boxers i will be happy to be called that still.

2.K-1 and thaiboxing are two different sports.
i.e K-1 isnt really thaiboxing,... id liek to think it as a kickboxing style.

3. kickboxing and full contact are also different sports.
Full contact= long pants ,boots, kick&box above belt
kickboxing = shorts (sometimes boots , sometikmes shinpads), low kicks allowed
i.e. the rules of kb can be flexible.
K-1 is basically an extremem form of KB, i.e. knees extra, a bit of clinching (not much)

4. different ppl like to watch different things.
I personally like FC, i like KB, i like MT, like Boxing, i LOVE K-1 , i like MMA,... hell i even like Karate and Taekwondo!

Thats what i mean about open minded martial artist!
hell ive even competed in karate and taekwondo!
LOL!!!
its all about choices!

Alan, what are your opinions on Buakaw por pramuk?

thanks :)

Last night's K1 show was painful to watch. Botha did alright, but i felt that that rest of the fights were an embarrassment to viewers and fighters. I was literally cringing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Even the Aerts fight looked a bit mismatched. Aerts is an AMAZING fighter, but goodridge? he didn't look to be in the same class at all!

I'm just a newcomer to Muay Thai, but even I could see that the K1 show on display last nite was a farce. Might as well pit some animals against each other, watch them tear each other to pieces.... sad.

fads he his bloody awesome. a machine of a man and the best middleweight in the world by a long long way along with pajunsuk!!! good comment farhad. fair play. some things we will agree and disagree on i suppose. I see im getting a fair bit of backing on last night k1 show though!!!

ive heard some crappy things abpout some of these K-1 shows as well to be honest

i.e. mismatches betweween real K-1 stars Vs bodybuilders/ gay porn stars/ NFL players/ wrestlers/ old boxers/ etc,....

its ok to have an occasioanl freak show match up for fun
to see if a kick/thai boxer can really take on all comers outside theyre discipline,...
but the najority of K-1 shud be proepr figthers fighting

alan he showed the world that muay thai is superior at K1 max didn't he? wow
he is a machine!

Well, Alan, you are a controversial one. You should not deny that simply by comparison with Farhad. Also, you are derailing your own topic, so I'm gonna continue with these tangents...

"For me Muay Thai is FULL THAI RULES. as soon as we start to deviate then we detract from the sport that we started in to begin with"

You don't even know what Muay Thai is. That's right, I said it. Alan Keddle Doesn't know what Muay Thai is. Let me explain...

It seems to me that all of people in the UK have their own definitions for Muay Thai, Thai Boxing and Kickboxing that they feel applies to everyone on the planet. Wow, how very "American" of you. I know there have been people on AX that have been offended by my comments about "Thai Kickboxing"...but ya know what? I really do not care. The older I get, the less I care about the people that participate on Ax. So many elitists. You are equally as offensive and even MORE closed minded with your ridiculous comments about "kickboxing", which totally ignores the history of how the word/phrase came about. But I suppose you feel more justified by your attitude simply because you are a Muay Thai trainer. I guess that is a good way to evade someone's argument. The Muay Thai trainers in England seem to be excellent at evading points on Ax. Good defense makes for a poor discussion.

Now back to "Alan Keddle does not know what Muay Thai is"...

Fellas, Muay Thai has evolves HEAVILY over the years, to the point where you and I do NOT KNOW how much it is changed. Who is the oldest Axer right now? 50-something? We all know that Muay Thai is MUCH older than 50-something, so get over yourselves! We can speculate on the changes of Muay Thai based on old photographs and comments by old Thai teachers, but we don't fully know. So when I read one of you complaining about Muay Thai changing, I think that is absurd and selfish. The "Muay Thai" that you know is simply the Muay Thai of TODAY. The Muay Thai of TODAY is different than the Muay Thai of just 10 years ago, not to mention 100 years ago! The Style...and the Rules set. They banned the plough (By "they" I mean the promoters in Thailand) not 5 years ago. The Thai KICKBOXERS (!) are using more boxing than a decade ago (based upon the feedback of many Axers in Thailand). Rob Cox mentioned rumors of changing the rounds from 5 to 4. This is with briefly mentioning the multitude of changes that took place in the early 1900's...boxing gloves, rounds, boxing ring.

But, I suppose that in Alan Keddle's mind, the Muay Thai world revolves around his experience and if Muay Thai changes from that then he gets pissed off! That is what I mean when I say "selfish".

would have been ever sweeter if was full thai rules and very short. The final fight was ridiculous making them fight another round when clearly buakow won easy!!! and farhad I would agree accept the unknowledgeable majority have seen it as a joke. Remember that advertising is not about selling to those that know about it but selling to those that dont. if an outsider switched on for the first time they would have been digusted as I was.

Another thing Alan...
If Muay Thai never grew past Thailand's borders, then you would not be training/teaching Muay Thai right now. You would've never heard of it.

Muay Thai changed (again) the minute it left Thailand.

oh brian you are getting so upset calm down fella. you are the one that started the sight therefore we can all write what we feel surely. there are many good thai boxing coaches in england. what is your background to tell me that i dont know what I am talking about. you know nothing about me, my background or what I have been involved in. If anybody else said what you did they would be banned from the site. I wonder whether this will go on? get your facts right before you so heavily critise me. It is obviously you that knows nothing about history and a good few weeks in thailnd would show you that!

Brain who said that muay thai shouldnt leave thailand. I am saying that the thais are still the best and that i like seeeing the art practiced as it is in thailand! what is wrong with that. just cos you run this website doesnt make you the authority either. I didnt like seeing old boxers taking a beating and and i think Mushashi is a thai boxer what is your problem?

anyway brian now that you think you have given me a lecture about thai history which you probably read fresh out of a book can you enlighten us on more facts that you think we didnt know. Muay thai we know still exists in thailand today and any deviations from that are hybrid sports. Why have you gone crazy about this what have you found so personally offensive. Sometimes people disagree and this site is all about that. it always has been. that is why it is a discussion forum! it doesnt give you thye right to attack me does it? at least i am actively involved and training fighters threfore just like farhad entitled to an opinion. I have even said that about farhad having a flair to teach and that I found his constructive argument fair play. Yours is just needless argument

personally:

I dont like to see old ppl getting beaten up either!!!
Respect the elderly!!!

Actually alan, there is a KB gym in my town which our gym affectionately call "kickboxing for pensioners" or "kickboxing for the aged"
its full of shorter (average height about 5'7" /5'8") , stockier guys (average weight about 80-85kg)
theyre not especially fit,.. and theyre mostly in theyre 30's.
In fact some of the older guys in my gym (aged 35+ or the less fit ones in theyre late 20's,.. you know the type,.. 28 coming on 38 :P) got sick of being surrounded by uni students and moved over there to theyre own age group :P

i think they shud have a K-1 "veterans " league and match them up with hoost or cikatic or robby kaman,...etc

or make them fight with Kb traienrs ,...etc


sadly tho it wud be hard to get fresh top level boxers into K-1
hows about getting british boxers into K-1 ?

Well done Alan
i agree totoally we all have our right to our opinions,... mind you im staying WELL out of this "muay thai is blah blah blah" argument as im none the wiser

yes you are right about hybrid sports but personally i enjoy hybrid styles
Examples of hybrids:

Boxing + Taekwondo(or karate)= Full contact

Thai boxing + Full contact = kickboxing

Thai boxing - (elbows + clinchwork + throws) = K-1

OR :

F.C + M.T - { ( elbows + clinchwork+ knees+throws)} = kickboxing

Its all a case of siumple mathematics

Come on Brian wanna settle this argument in a gentlemanly way. dont see the need for it to be like this. Farhad is always contraversial thats why I like him on the site. Take out farhad and sandy holt it wouldnt be the same site. differences in opinion makes the site! you have yours and i have mine except i didnt start by launchimng a personal atttack on you did I. I have enough respect in the UK by working hard, producing fighters and turning up. You have shown how little you know by saying that I know nothing about the sport that is my life.

Farhad has once again shown his ability to stick to what he believes in and present a reasoned non personal argument. I am in fear of starting to really like the guy. Its the first time i have seen him show withdrawal on an argument because of Brians outragous attack that he doesnt want to get involved in. You can see from the comments on here that other people back what i said about the fiasco yesterday and about the thai domination of the sport. anyway Brian what else have i siad that has upset you as the great thai boxing guru that you are? please list them so we can sort them out. what is really got to you then?

"im in fear of starting to really like the guy"
LOL@ alan keddles comments

Alan i have fond memories of you once saying words along the lines of stick to your day job and get out of martial arts? and that my welcome onAX has been outstayed :P

never mind,... thats the past its not as if i was a complete angel on ehre myself ,.. LOL!!!

but to be honest Brian,...
i have only seen Alan once in my entire life,.. maybe twice i dont know,..
and were not exactly best mates or nuffin,.. BUT i will actually take his word for it as far as traditional MT goes coz hes been there done that
i.e. hes been to thailand and goes there regular


For example:

If Alan keddle tried to tell me something about bangladesh or mauritius (both my parents countries of origin) id tell him where to get off and ask him what planet hes living on or what drugs hes tkaing :P

other than that im gonna listen to this debate as its the first reasonable debate of its kind ive seen in a long time
ive put forwards my view points and am looking forward to hearing yours with an open mind

farhad you have laid the gauntlet. apologies about the past comment. i am as you know a thai enthusiast and i will agree that one thing has evolved and that is that i am now in agreement with you. There are a great many things besides the origin of your parents that i can learn from you. that is putting yourself down. you always present a reasonable argument wether people like it or not. nobody will ever all agree but i think your comment about demonstrating teaching ability at higher grades was bang on! i want to know what criteria brian has used to come out with these outrageous comments. I have obvoiusly pulled a heart string with him. just because he doesnt like what i say he thinks he can say that i know nothing about my job. now he has clearly shown who holds that qualification!

Hey Alan...
What attack?
I was just making my opinions heard.
Just like you.


Speaking of lecturing...

I expected you to do the following :

1. Become offended and treat my comments as an "attack"
2. Disregard my comments about Muay Thai because I am not a Muay Thai instructor
3. Disregard my comments about Thailand because I havent been there

Actually, you made these comments to make fun of me as a way to disregard my points :

"what else have i siad that has upset you as the great thai boxing guru that you are"

"what is your background to tell me that i dont know what I am talking about"

"now that you think you have given me a lecture about thai history which you probably read fresh out of a book"

So far, you are playing your role perfectly. You are doing the same thing that a lot of Muay Thai instructors out of the UK have done on Ax. They point down to a person's role in the sport when they disagree with them. You've done it just as a lot of your peers have.

"Brain who said that muay thai shouldnt leave thailand."

I said that when Muay Thai left the borders of Thailand, it changed. It had to change before it got to you. My point being that YOU should ACCEPT changes in Muay Thai in the future just as you have accepted changes in Muay Thai before you were involved in it.

"You have shown how little you know by saying that I know nothing about the sport that is my life."

You are only one man. Your lifespan is very short. Your experience is limited.
When I say that you don't know what Muay Thai is...I also say that "I" don't either. None of us FULL know what Muay Thai is. It's been around way longer than we have.

The word is humility, Alan.

"If we have to sacrifice the weopons we use for publicity then I am NOT interested"

Your words, Alan. However, Muay Thai sacrificed headbutts a long time ago for the sake of publicity of the sport. They also incorporated boxing gloves, boxing ring, etc...all for the publicity of the sport. I don't hear you complaining about the lack of headbutts in Muay Thai. You are seeing Muay Thai from you own LIMITED perspective. That is why I say that you don't fully know Muay Thai.

All Muay Thai instructors should get over themselves and their supposed experience and knowledge. They are a drop of water in the ocean of Muay Thai. That is the opinion of me... a complete nobody in the sport.

alan:
thank you for your comments
and yes we will agree on some thigns but disagree on others the samne way you and brian disagree on a certain issue.

yes there are things i can learn from you and vice versa.

As of this covnersation the Keddle Family is officially O.K in my books.i.e. the keddle brothers have now gone up in my estimation.

"Yours is just needless argument"

Try reading it first.

I never said you "know nothing" about the sport.
I said you don't know what Muay Thai is.

Brian just remeber that you stated i knew nothing about this sport. Brian out of interest what is it that you do. apart from this website that is. I would like to know how you would feel if on the back of one of your comments that someone else disagreed with they said you knew nothing about a job you have done all of your life! my angry comments that you have so cleverly outlined are simple retaliations to the outrageous attck that you put to my name. you know nothing about me or what i do. on this basis i can clearly say that you are wrong about me. i dont need to know you to call you what i like if you have disrespected me personally like this. if you dont like what you read you can disagree with it but why attack me. If you think that saying i know nothing about the sport is inoffensive then you really are a fool. your comments about the other uk instructors is out of oder aswell. who are you talikng about or do you refer to us all? we make your site and therefore you should have some respect for us.

yes it is true,...
there are a lot of UK instructors on this site and many of them are very intelligent and know theyre stuff

ive learned a lot from the UK instructors.

Example:
Tony myers (doesnt post a lot)

i did a lesson with him i.e. he taught me (not the other way round of course)

and it was a real eye opener

i did a seminar (judging ) under tony myers and i learned a bit about MT from that too

i attended a seminar with some MT fighters from belarus,...
i also have learned bits and bobs from paul sutton, thomas ashe,...and believe they know theyre stuff

Why do I see such a strong anti-Japanese sentiment from some of the UK posters? Notice how they get all upset if you call Muay Thai "Kickboxing" but see no problem calling Japanese ... Japs.

Tuesday is my non-teaching/training night, but I find it hard to relax and watch shit on TV, so I come on to here for 'entertainment'. I would like to say how much I have enjoyed this 'argument' on this thread. Really good stuff and not going off thread the way a lot of them do. I've sat here and gone back and read all posts, so thanks for that.

Having said that i thought i might comment as well. I come at this from a non-MT angle as that isn't my background. I've done a little over years as I have a lot of things but that's not where I come from. I find myself agreeing with a lot of all are saying (which is the sign of a well delivered argument)

on K1
Agree 100% with Alan. This slide into 'freakdom' is very short sighted. Yes it will put a few bums on seats now but does nothing to deliver the long term stars that the sport needs to develop. there are some very good fighters at the moment on K1 (I love Bonjasky, the dog bollocks), but there are very few with the charisma of Andy Hug, Hoost, Stan Longidis, etc. Once the freaks go, there might be nothing left.

On 'traditional' thai
Agree a little with Brian, things change in all arts. Very little is 'traditional' by defintion. Look at all thoe guys teaching 'traditional' shotokan karate. These guys don't realise that what they do is completely different from the shotokan of say 40 years ago, so how can it be 'traditional'?? Things do move on and sometimes compromise (like gloves, etc) take it forward. I love thai boxing fights, and I mostly prefer those bouts under 'full rules'. However I could do without the pre-fight ritual and the thai music. Now I mean no disrepect when I say that, but I look at all these 'sports' as a spectacle and for me it does not improve the enjoyment of the fight, and that's the important thing to me. Of course with everything it's about balance and it's about keeping the best of the old whilst also encompasing the new. For what it's worth in boxing (which is my first love) I hate the drawn out entrances which have now become the norm, and I suppose one day that will be seen as 'traditional'!!


Anyway, main point is K1 with all its money could have been the 'one', it still might be but for me now, they're 'losing it'

Whatever good or bad happens to K1 in the future, the fact is that the excellent exposure gained by fighting sports come from K1, the acknowledgement of the painstaking efforts of many sportsmen come from K1, same for the coaches, many of whom have spent lives in shadow to be looked now at as personalities of the sport, which they diserved since long without having had no decent opportunity. Of course, there is a lot of the reverse. Money and tv are dangerous tools. Promoters are anything else but mother Theresa's of charity. No rating = no money = might happen that a Sapp-ish character has more charisma and shadows a true technician. But this is the risk involved, and to me the benefit seems to overcome it. Let's be honest. Nothing in Thailand could push the name and art of Muay Thai so far and mostly so fast. Who would have been Samart and Buakaw in - say - my place (Romania, 8000&something km from Thailand) ? Sorry to say, just a couple of weird Oriental names. Look at them now.

On another path of thinking, people tend to perceive K1 as a unitary pheonomenon. Should be, it is not. Sometimes one would be enticed to take note of it like a rather forced marriage between the European skill and fighter factories and the money and tremendous capacity of rising fan crowds of Japan. With the already known result - Japanese have messed a lot of things with their greed to push on scene freaks and their ill-conducted judgements about reffing, judging and promoting. But politics is not related so abruptly to justice and fair behavior. Politics is cruel. At no point Europe itself could have a chance to match the financial machinery able to push the scene so high as to gain worldwide exposure. That's it. Face it, live it, love it. For the moment, the single place in the world where such a show can attract audiences of 6 zeros and money like telephone numbers consequently is Japan. But hopefully the thing will change by the way it functions itself. People will change (not the characters in themselves, but the actors and those in charge of the powers that be in the system). Mentality will enrich among public. Then we might have better hopes. Sportsmen who are now at the limit of their fighting days will remain nevertheless personalities of the sport even if they retire - think at Hoost and those alike and what treasures of experience and knowledge these gentlemen carry and spread. I agree with the idea that the bottle is (still) half-empty. But then it is also half-full and also rising. Time will tell with what kind of show on the top :)

Matt how was saying the K1 show we saw last night was rubbish and that musashi should be refered to as a thaiboxer anti japanese?

K-1 was great when it first started out, now it has become a joke, over the hill boxers and other freaks have ruined it, surley the world has new young blood who can replace the old greats, but they don't seem to use them, K-1 Max and Superleague are the shows of the future, K-1 ran with the ball and blew it badly!!!!

"Matt how was saying the K1 show we saw last night was rubbish and that musashi should be refered to as a thaiboxer anti japanese"

Where did I say that?

"also another point. Why does Mushashi get referred to as a Seido Karate practioner. Clearly he is a thai boxer. He threw one seido move last night!!! when will they -

[read: sneaky Japs?]

- admit that he is a thai boxer with the style of an art derived in Thailand. I admit that originally when you watched him fight in the early days he had a lot of Sedio moves but now he is an all out Thai boxer. Only short on elbows!!! and a bloody good heavyweight THAI BOXER at that!!!"

lol, if he did try to say he was a Muay Thai fighter you guys would be screaming that it isn't Muay Thai with the lack of elbows and limited clinch.


Kickboxing:

Full Contact
Muay Thai
K-1
San Shou/Sanda
International style
ect...


Racquet sports:

Tennis
Table tennis
Badminton
Racquet ball
Paddle ball
Squash
ect...

agree totally matt
you cant win can you?

Ian,

Matt was saying that Muay Thai practitioners in England get offended when people refer to Muay Thai as "Thai Kickboxing".
Matt finds that funny because those same people in England will call Japanese people "japs" without question even if they KNOW it may offend Japanese people.

call ti what you want:
Muay thai
thai boxing
thai kickboxing
kickboxing

a punch is a punch a kick is a kick and a fight is a fight

Farhad - "now if musashi was crap you guys wud be calling him a kickboxer/karateka"

I agree with that statement completely.

I am so sick of Muay Thai elitism.
To me, it makes a Muay Thai instructor as bad as any "Black-Belt-Red-Stripe-10th-dan-Eagle's-Claw-Traditional-McDojo" instructor.

Teach your students the techniques.
You don't need to teach them your attitude.

i stay out of all that stuff
i just call what i do kickboxing and teach my stuidents what they need to l;earn
and let themn compete in what they feel happy to fight in

What I find hilarious is that some seem to take the angle that because Muay Thai uses elbows that they have sole propietaery right to defining their syle by its usage.


Well here is a point to consider - Pancrase which well predates any DOCUMENTED records (not speculation or opinion)of Muay Thai used elbows, clinching, headbutting, etc. The ancient Olympics also used the same - I guess they are now the first Muay Thai fighters. I am sure the first cavemen figured out that if he hit his buddy Og with that big bony thing in the middle of his arm whilst wrestling him for a peice of meat then it bloody hurts. There are no new techniques nor is there any exclusivity by a style to a technique.

You are confusing formats and as Brian rightly pointed out the format for Muay Thai has changed and changed extensively in the last eighty years. I guess us silly westerners must have come up with some good ideas hence the adoption of gloves, ring, etc. Muay Thai doesn't even wear the traditional shorts anymore but rather garish nylon decorated with sponsors logo's. Question for you - we all know that Muay Thai began on the battlefields of Thailand, Cambodia and Burma and these battles were conducted with the technology of the time and according to the customs. When was the last fight in the UK featuring armed, armoured and possibly mounted soldiers sponsored by Joe's Sword Sharpening Shop vs Muay Thai fighters? Did the battle stop when participants fell to the ground? And what did the referee's wear? Where can I get the video?

without muay thai, you guys would still be breaking boards in horse stance and kicking apples off of swords.

I wouldn’t call it ‘Muay Thai elitism’, Brian … more a bulwark against the creeping tide of culture colonialism

I guess the problem here is about terminology. When Kyokushin Karate fighter Kenji Kurosaki left the the IKO-1 after his fight in Thailand along with Toshio Fujiwara back in 1964, he opened his own gym - Mejiro Gym. Now at this time in Japan there was a lot of interest in Muay Thai , and it was common to see fights between Karate fighters and Muay Thai fighters. The thing is that the japanese began to refer Muay Thai as Kickboxing and then the name sticked.
Kickboxing in Japan is played just like Muay Thai (clinching, knees and elbows allowed). Some even call it Muay Thai Kickboxing. But in Europe i don't know why, we adopted different rules and began to distinguish things ( wich is wrong in my opinion). There should only be Muay Thai or a mixed martial art type of competition similar to K-1. Well i agree that rules should be more soft for amateurs and kids but still i would call it Muay Thai or Kickboxing as they do in Japan as long as people know it's the same.

As for Musashi, he is a Seidokaikan Karate fighter. I think he has competed in Muay Thai in the past but now it's only K-1 for him. Alan you should know that a great part of the modern Karate styles such as Kyokushin, Seido , Daido, Seishin, Shidokan, Shinbukan....) adopted Muay Thai techniques and methods of training. But this doen't mean he is a Muay Thai fighter. Well if you consider that someone that uses Muay Thai techniques and methods of training is a Muay Thai fighter, in that case i may agree with you. But Karate is more than techniques and training methods. There's a sipritual side and philosophy that make it different from other martials. I should also refer that aside from thole elements that i mentioned, Karate has it's own history as well as it's rituals. I think this is important and should be taken in account.

About this K-1 event broadcasted this Monday, i should say i didn't enjoy it at all. Lack of quality and give me a break!! The boxer is not gonna kick cuz he's wearing shoes ?! That waht the f...ck are they doing in K-1?! Besides, this boxer vs kickboxer thing is stupid. If the boxer is gonna compete in K-1, he'll have to learn kickboxing and so he won't be just a boxer but also a kickboxer. If you want to see a pure boxer vs a kickboxer, then we should a have a NHB match for the two type of fighters.

And here's my idea for a 32 man K-1 Tournment:


Francisco Filho vs Peter Aerts

Musashi vs Hoost

Sam Greco vs Jerome LeBanner

Feitosa vs Remy Bonjasky

Semmy Schilt vs Martin Holm

Shingo Koyasu vs Alexey Ignashov
Peter Graham vs Mirko Filipovic

Maiti Mo vs Quinton Jackson

Ray Sefo vs Stefan Leko

Kusatsu vs Michael Mcdonald

Mark Hunt vs Carter Williams

Nakasako vs Sergey Gur

Ryuji Murakami vs Hiraku Hori

Tomihira vs Rony Sefo

Ryo Sakai vs Hiromi Amada

Fujimoto vs Rooze

Reserve Match :

Petar Mastorovic vs Nobu Hayashi

Veteran Match :

Gerard Gordeau vs Branko Cikatic

Max Match :

Masato vs Yoshihiro Sato

Samkor vs John Wayne

Takayuki Kohi vs Fuji Chalmsak

Buakaw vs Duane Ludwig

Albert Kraus vs Jean Skarbowski

Whats wrong With Kicking Apples off Thai ? Jap-anese Swords? :-p
and Hasnt this Whole Thai-Kick-Boxing "Thang" been used n Abused a Thousand times!?

I Thought ( Bear with me Alan Kiddle For im Like Thee in many ways )Brians Post was Articulate in that if you had Read the recently gone onto a few AX pages back re: Thai-Kickboxing arguements! then Alan you would See where ? / what Brian Was saying !
Ive been Involved and seen Both sides to this Big Debate !
The Japanese Issue is erm another Thing ! as i can say the Japanese Influence into martial Arts in the U.K.was greater @ the start And the Muay-Thai has taken Over ! But like many I started in Tradditional japanese Karate and Jui-Jitsu! Not wanting to get into the Above posted bit ref: the Abb: = Abbreviation for japan Japanese etc:
in this Country we Dont Really See it as a racial Slur as Americans Do ?
But i do Understand it !

I can see why Alan took offence and `i` would have done a While back ! But having got into a few recent and old debates and With Brian on the Thai-Kickboxing Debate ! He Actually makes a lot of Sense ( Dont like to admit it hahahahBut iam and will )
Alan you need to Go to older Topics to see this and how poss: Brians statements came to be !


On `THE` Topic ref: K-1 Which initself is a Screwed up name Imo !
Heres the Example, my Ma and Pa whom i respect and luv Very Much, obviously Know after 25 years of me doing Thai-Boxing intensely! They have had Sky T.V. for a few years and i have Not !
So Anything Remotely Martial-Arts based / Fighting comes on ? they Kindly Tape it ! They have done so for about 5 years or More ! Esp: the Household names of these Programmes for the "Public" and Pureists to Purvey !!!
Now the Titles on the Progs: and The Words My Ma & Pa have wrote on the Videos for me to Collect and watch are these:-
Quote/ Titles, and My parents sometimes Slight Variant on the Exact Title
Thai-Boxing
Kick-Boxing
Muay-Thai
Even they Understood the `3` Letters MMA
as it was stated as Mixed martial Arts
to which All the Above are ( Fighting Arts too )

Now then...............
Guess what they Missed ( and me now )

"K-1"
Wtf ?
is it a Mountain Before K-2 ?
Or a ABB: ( = Abbreviation in case we offend the P.C. and the Jap-anese )

So if it Comprises the Muay-Thai
the Thai-Boxing the Kickboxing
Why is it called a "Letter and a Number"

How will Ever The World Understand it ? When it isnt even a Household Name as the Other `3` name Are !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Now then !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-)))))))))))))))))))

"Brian Ritchie

2000-10-05 07:06:01 ( time)

Brian Ritchie writes:

"I'm with you, my Thai instructor gets really pissed when the great unwashed masses out there use the term Thai Kickboxing, instead of Muay Thai or Thai Boxing. "

I get really tired of Muay Thai teachers and students spreading misinformation about the use of the word "Kickboxing".

Ahh, nevermind...I'm wasting my time...

Brian - Ax!"


Brian, you were correct in October 2000 and you are correct today, you're wasting you time... I don 't think they will ever get it.


:)

Lol :-p

Im Going to Start my Own up ( as they Do )
it will Not Be Called KB nor MT nor TKB not even MMA nor errr K1
But From Now on all of you listen







ITS Called












"MAD"

M.
A.
D.

You Decide?
it Could be.........
Martial Arts Demolition??
Mad And Daft?
Muay And Defence ?
Most As*holes Dont!?
Many Adults Do! ?
Mixed And Destructive!
Muay Ancient Do?
Mad asa Dog ?


Either way???
if its in the T.V and Sky Guide !
Everyone in the World will Know it ! and not get Confused By a Japanese made Up term for the errrrr `K-1` - Thai ? Muay ? Kick-Boxing :-p
:-)))))))

K stands for Kazuyoshi and 1 stands for Ishi ( means one in japanese), So you have K-1 = Kazuyoshi Ishi. He's the founder of K-1. It's a japanese joke.

You learn something new everyday, did anyone else know that?

My two penneth time!

Monday's show was great entertainment - it answered the age old question, what happens if a boxer meets a martial artist? We got the idea! Ok, a couple of fights were against relatively washed up fighters, but those fighters have a lot of pedigree and experience a la Mercer, and they didn't have to take the fights.

What it exposed was that boxers cannot just rely on punches in an open format. That's the answer to the question, leaving individuals out of it.

K1 after all was all about putting different arts in the mix together...

I saw the Musashi fight, and thought that Will Vander's comments were spot on - that Musashi is a karate fighter, yet has evolved and learnt so much from other arts, and I even think a couple of times he gave explanation of the power of a Thai applied round kick, the application with the shin, the damage that occurs. I thought that his presentation last night was first class.

I don't think K1 has become a joke, as it is still doing what it started - putting different sports in under one format, to see who's best. And in my opinion, it is showing clearly that its not the art, but the person.

So they put in a couple of spectacles, like Akebono. I don't class Sapp as purely a spectacle (although I am so entertained by him!!!) as he went in there and beat Hoost twice, beat others....he's much, much more than a freak!

I see both sides of Brian and Alan's discussion/argument/banter etc. So I'll speak from my own experience. I've gone from judo to trad ju-jitsu to sport ju jitsu to Lau Gar Kung Fu to karate to kickboxing to Thai boxing to Boxing. I just fought for a Thai World Title Eliminator. I fight in K1. So despite fighting for Woking Thai Boxing, do I call myself a Thai Boxer? Nope! I'm a K1 fighter, or kickboxer. I don't compete only within one style, I'm a hybrid, and k1 and kickboxer seem the best ways of describing what I do.

As for kicking apples off swords...its something Sandy does very, very well....

Just my two peneth!

Smiler

Matt sorry if i sounded argumentative in my last post,and i dont mean to go on because im sure this has been covered a thousand times,but as sandy explained the word jap is not concidered offensive in the u.k,so im sure knowone was trying to be anti japanese.

But smiler when i flicked K1 on the other week there was some dude from the nfl fighting,apparently one of bobb sapps mates,how the hell has he got in on the act?

Smiler

You are certainly right!!! The Boxer v. Martial Artist question was answered within round one of almost every fight! Lol. All of the boxers who participated CHOSE to do so and were given the opportunity to fight without their boxing boots (though many chose not too).

I wonder how Tyson will fare.....

I have seen many fantastic K1 events!!! My comments on Monday's show pertained specifically to that spectacle and were not meant to be reflective of K1 as a whole.

At first, I thought it was funny, but as the rounds continued, I felt the pain of the boxers!!!

Good luck in your endeavours.

did sefu really have a dirty fight? they were talking about it at class tonight..

Farhad writes:
Boxing + Taekwondo(or karate)= Full contact

Thai boxing + Full contact = kickboxing

Thai boxing - (elbows + clinchwork + throws) = K-1

OR :

F.C + M.T - { ( elbows + clinchwork+ knees+throws)} = kickboxing

Its all a case of siumple mathematics


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
farhad,your mathematical vein is coming into play lol :)
(i`ve seen a FullConatct-show last week and it was WONDERFUL.i wished i had a real expert sitting-or actually standing since it was outdoor without seats lol- next to me & explaining what`s happening lol !).


i think whether or not you like changes in MA depends largely on your personal
TASTE and scarcely on knowledge.
"change","compromise","adaption","modernisation":
is it good or bad ? inavoidable or treachery ?
there`s just no way to decide this by rational argumentation !

in an ideal world FullRules-MT would attract the masses.
as it stands you have to choose :

K-1 ish rules,town hall,show,glamour,light effects,No Kru,heavy metal,5.000 spectators

OR

FullRules,small gym,no glamour,Kru,thai music,50 spectators.

i go for the latter :P

you go for the latter?
i go for the former

Sandy:
new style?
i call it MFA :P

Ian, er, as you know I wonder at how to get a K1 break!!!

But at the end of the day, that's true to K1...put people in the mix and see what happens!!

NFL? Sod them...put some of our rugby players in!!! Go Martin Johnson! Go Johnny Wilkinson - he's got a great kick! Maybe put in Beckham! After all, he can really kick....or maybe not following that penalty! Chuckle!

Smiler

Blimey I might have to start being nice to you Farhad before Alan bans me from the gym! lol

And Fads I'll pass on your regards to Adam

really JD?

then get youre arse to my fight in birmingham!!!

and tell alan keddle to get a coach load of you down!!!

Alan,

"For me Muay Thai is FULL THAI RULES. as soon as we start to deviate then we detract from the sport that we started in, to begin with"

I agree with you comments one hundred percent..

Having been involved in Muay Thai for just over ten years, I understand your enthusiam for seeing Muay Thai stay true to the style as in Thailand today.

For people who have never travelled to Thailand, or have never trained next to the Thai's on their home ground.. You unfortunatley will never fully understand the comradeship that grows even stronger, once you've experienced Muay Thai in Thailand!

We live, sleep, breath,work Muay Thai, and even travel half way around the world once or twice a year to experience it for real.. but how many of the kickboxing community on here can say that they travel to Japan, to do the same?


Brian,

What is with the attack on British Muay Thai Instructors? Why is this so personal to you, that it creates such a bad attitude?

Brian if I ever found myself (Half English - Yorkshire, Half Zimbabwe - Harare, with an American step dad, Married to a Thai natioanl) saying Jap instead of Japanese.. then I would probably kick my own ass!

Racism shouldnt be tolerated on any level, no matter how small!

Farhad,

How is you... Sorry for the of thread post...

But how is Kat? Havent heard from her in a long time, i've sent her a few emails but nothing.. I remember what you told me, I just want to make sure someone has managed to touch base with her.

It was good to see you competing the other month in Birmingham, well done!!

Farhad,

How is you... Sorry for the of thread post...

But how is Kat? Havent heard from her in a long time, i've sent her a few emails but nothing.. I remember what you told me, I just want to make sure someone has managed to touch base with her.

It was good to see you competing the other month in Birmingham, well done!!

Ryan my man!!!

hows it going!
thanx for the complement i am trying to learn muay thai the hard way :P
i.e. in the ring LOL!!!
i do go to MT seminars as well too.
As for Kat,.. man ive gotta contact her soon quicktime!

i did ring ehr a few times but havent spoken to ehr for a while

by the way thanx for looking after Kat and teaching/training her over this last year gone by, you got ehyr in the ring and that was mighty great of you.

keep it real!

good website too by the way,....

Kat looking pretty as ever in her "A.F.K" top too!

I do not like the freakshows in K1 lately, but i heavely enjoy when they get beaten by a Hoost, Aerts, Sefo etc..ok let's say Smiler to,lol.So it's a two way thing really..I dont like it but i love to see the video when they got beaten.

The debate on styles here is pretty interesting to read about..I think all have a few good points mentioned..

The thing or idea i didnt read yet or question asked is this...
Is K1 a style?? For me it is not..If it would, Superleague would be a style too..What do you guys think.??
K1 is a tourny format, all styles can compete in rules dictated by the K1 organisation..Don't like dont participate, dont like, dont watch it!!

Personally i liked the K1 1993-2000 as being the best for me to watch but i can imagine that a Bob Sapp do fill some extra seats ans sells the t-shirts..
Having a few guys in like that is good , people talk, like it or not..Just now it's hanging over to have more freaks than real fighters..good fighters,that did the hard work , did there fights, win the qualifications and in the end they see there place taken bye a guy that had 0 or a few fights in the tourny's..That's the shame of it..And i personally think it's a bad thing at long term..How do you motivate a fighter to do the hard work and tell him when he won all the tourny's, Sorry mate, but you are not a freak so sorry, no Tokyo Dome for you!!

The muay thai discussion here..Well myself i am not a purist at all..I used to do Karate, Taekwondo, Kyokushin, a bit of Ju Jitsu(very low level indeed, i was crap at it), Thaiboxing , Full Contact, Kickboxing..
In my gym i never have been wearing a belt to teach as i do not believe that a belt will help you in any case to build up long term respectfull relationship with your students. Everybody calls me Guy in an outside the gym and we all have a lot to laugh about in the gym..We have the radio playing and we work , hard..I honestly have 0 trouble motivating my people because i try to teach them to do the job themselves.. I am just there to help them out. I do not see myself as being so important, it's my students who has to fight not me..
I like to read and learn about a style, about backround etc.. Culture and traditions but for me i stick to the technique that i want to learn and here we are in Belgian so for me no Thai or japanese culture involved. Why because it's impossible.. If you want to live as a thai go to thailand, if you want to live as a Japanese go to Japan, it's the only way to really understand it..

It's a strange thing but i tend to question styles.. And try to learn it, to mayby find something to use to make my students better.. I think a good example here on ax is Smiler..He adapted he's style, added that was usefull and became a better fighter. Well, here we try to use the short time we have to do that to. We adapt to the rules that is needed to fight. If it's Kung Fu we will adapt what we learned over the years to try to win there, if it's K1, adapt and use what in the rules, thaiboxing same..and we try to have fun ad doing what we do not taking us to serious.

I personally think if you look at your coach or style and never question the things you learn you will loose prescious time..At my gym we have fighters doing Full Contact, Kickboxing & Thaiboxing. We just look what's best for each person to fight in and have a go at it..

No disrespect to any style or teacher ever, they do things like they feels best for them and it works to..Who am i to tell anybody what to do, but it's just not my thing..

A while back a coach came to me to tell me that he recognized a surtan style in my fighters.. Well he naild it..10 gyms, 10 different styles..i think..Example..In Holland the Chakuriki style is very different of the Vos Gym style butt both will compete in K1 or Thaiboxing. Smiler is a whole different style than let's say Peter Aerts..etc..So what's in the name i mean..

I would like to see a video of Thaiboxing or Taekwondo let's say of the 1940's..We would not see the same things we use today..Luckely!!

I think Holland is the country that is specialised in learning a style, adapt it to the better.." Ramon Dekker " is a good example..After he beat some of the well knowned thai's, the thai's where there to copy Dekker and the Maeng Ho style..

And that's how a style changes, all the time!!

Sorry for the poor english..

Guy
Team HTK

You know I couldnt resist, picture in her A.F.K. top!

Yeah she had a hard first fight, and unfortunatly with her personal probs... She never managed to get her winners trophy like she deserves. Very talented!
Maybe next year, let thing settle down a bit first...

Well if you do manage to get hold of her, tell her that we are all missing her at the Club.

Keep safe, chin down, elbows in!

Guy you think like i do
except for one thing
1. i wear my black belt to teach in all the time
2. my students do take grades and wear belts (i.e most of them are more interested in belts than fighting)

i think shell be back with me come sept,....
thanx for all your help and by all means keep her on your website mate

Sonik writes:

K stands for Kazuyoshi and 1 stands for Ishi ( means one in japanese), So you have K-1 = Kazuyoshi Ishi. He's the founder of K-1. It's a japanese joke.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
becca
rebeccaw@gwservices.com.au

2004-08-11 07:58:51 (Europe/London time)


becca writes:

You learn something new everyday, did anyone else know that?


I Didnt Either Becca !

Its OFFICIAL
its Here
the New Logo for the Old And Deflated and Freak Show K-1
M.A.D. New Logo and will be Used on T.V. and T-Shirts and Hoodys etc: and "Thai-Shorts"
Coz theres no such thing as K-1 or San Shou and Seido ?Kan Shorts ! :-p
What ya Think
"Place-Bets-Now"
errrrrrrrrrrr

`Ah So` i mean
Place "Orders Now"!
:-p
:-)))))

lol, Ishi means stone...Ichi means one (or a market place)

1.Like i said, Farhad, for some it works fine..But for me i hate the hierarchic(must be spelled wrong, sorry) idea behind belts..Belts as what i have seen of it is a big industry..as a lot of people thend to have a belt to show of..I personally did examinations for high level belts because i wanted to see if i was up to it..was like a challenge for me.. Once back in the car my belt stayed in the thrunk of my car for a few years..I am shure that you are the real deal as i here from some people here on ax..lol...Butt you must admitt that if you look around you have a lot of so called blackbelts showing of and teach and take money out of people's pocket with a belt they recieved because they have payed a lot of dollars to recieve the certificate that hangs in the gym..
2.Yup, that's the case if you have belts to begin with, have none and the problem would be solved..but your right, a lot of people tend to motivate themselves to go to the gym for that..but i personally think after a while they should question theirselves what's more important. We have approx 100 students in da club..from those 100 only 10-12 compete on a regular basis.. never have any questions asked about the rest about what they are doing at the gym..they are there because they hopefully learn something, feel they are a help to the fighters, feels a part of the team and most importantly i want them to have fun doing it all..Fighters, Regular Students and coach or all on the same level, they all feels they are a part of a big family and that's why they come to the gym..nothing more nothing less..

But, you do it your way, i do it my way. it works for me and i feel good a bout it. You do it your way and you do feel good about it to so..Positif!!

Guy if as you say 'I personally did examinations for high level belts because i wanted to see if i was up to it..was like a challenge for me'.. surely others will want to as well??

I've gone through both approaches over the past few years. No belts on, and just training in what we call the 'rough and ready' way. We also have the proper structured classes, gradings, people wearing belts and that's what we do now. To be honest the second approach (for us) is far more successful. Both in sheer numbers of students and also in the number of fighters we have as well.

"What is with the attack on British Muay Thai Instructors? "

First of all...
1. Why is it an attack? Is Alan's comments about Musashi an "attack"?

2. I criticize them because they usually display the same "religous" attitude that you have displayed. It is a regional thing. They are influenced by their peers. UK Muay Thai instructors = elitist attitude, usually. I even respect a couple of them pretty heavily (Richard Smith, Dave Jackson) but I also see their regional influence appear in their words. This deserves criticism.

As an example...

"For me Muay Thai is FULL THAI RULES. as soon as we start to deviate then we detract from the sport that we started in, to begin with"

If you read my post (which you probably didn't) you would realize that I am saying that FULL MUAY THAI RULES have CHANGED over the past 10 years, nevermind the last 1000. So, according to you and Alan, the Thais have done a disservice to Muay Thai by changing it. As religious as you appear to be about Muay Thai, I would love to see you criticize the Thais for Changing Muay Thai. You won't do it. Neither will Alan.

So why the double standard?

What if the Thais took out elbows?
How would you react to that?

What exactly IS Full Muay Thai Rules?

That is what I am saying when I say that "You don't fully know Muay Thai".
None of us do.

hi smiler the question of how tyson will fare was answered by the man Danny Williams. On a k1 platform against one of the tops the same will happen if not worst!!! a good leg kicker like aerts, mushashi,filho ignashov, will do the damage. other comments have been made about wanting to see who was better boxers or (how shall i phase it) thai style kickboxers then? if that is ok this question will be better demonstated by putting their best against the best k1 not 43 year old, very overweight former boxers. Like for like would be lewis, klitchko or for that matter danny williams!!! on that form against tyson he stands a much better chance than these old men that got a beating the other day. Botha did well but that is because he is learning thai boxing and is moving away from boxing not even wearing the boots. Before long he will not be classed as a boxer anymore like the others.

I also agree that they had a choice and at there age who wouldnt for the money. That doesnt make it right. I have been to so many shows in my life and the number of times I have heard 'oh that was a stitch up' or 'what was he doing in there with him' i cant even count. The same could be said for mondays eurosport show. One sided anhilations. The point has now been proven and lets get back to skilled martial artists that can defend themselves against each other. It was what made KI famous to begin with. As you know I would like elbows and clinch aswell but that is only because I believe that without them some of the top level world boxers stand a good chance of winning if they fight somebody that cant kick! For example I think that Tyson would be able to despatch with the fighters that dont use the low kick as they would struggle to keep him off them. It is the low kick that causes most of the boxers the problem. If they could clinch and elbow he wouldnt be able to do it.

I still regard Mushashi as a thai boxer now but I can see how some people see that differently and thankyou all for pointing out your views. Out of interest what do people regard as Ramon dekkers style? I would say that he is a world class thai boxer. He started in other disciplines as was seen from his early style and eventually turned out to be one of the best thai boxers in the world. I do believe that he would have been a world level fighter in any style but it was thai boxing that he excelled at and I dont think anyone can argue with that. I think the same for Mushashi and it has nothing to do with detracting from seido or kickboxing like Brian thinks. For example I myself started in other styles using spinning techniques, hook kicks, sweeps, axe kicks the lot. I can still use those techniques and I like people using them but most of us must admit it is not very often on the K1 that you see them used and I have my reasons for why. I think it is because when I fought in these styles (sometimes open mat) low kicks were very often not allowed and that was what changed it for me. Every time I went to spin manouvre my legs would get taken or I would be drawn to the clinch. In full thai fighting it can be very dangerous to have the back turned to the opponent with bare shins and strikes hitting the body with the shin, knees and elbows. Even in the UK Karate tounaments hard full contact to the face is not allowed. This changes the plot completely as to what moves you can use. If you remember the early k1 days you will recall the likes of sam greco fighting in the seido tournaments and they allowed low kicks and knees but not clinch, elbow or punches to the face. The K1 rules allow these and therefore the fighters have adapted with it.

Thai boxing has evolved as Brian points out but the contact level has not. The gloves, ring, etc introduced along with many of the marquis of Queensbury rules but the Weopons are the the same. All eight weopons! just because we werent there at the time doesnt mean that we dont know about the history. That being the case why would people believe in god? many havent seen him and I still believe in him. I also respect others have different views on how they choose to believe. Just because we weren't there during the process of evolution doesnt mean that we dont know anything Brian.Many of the UK instructors you put down have been amongst the sucess the sport shares today.

I must say however there are some fine examples of mixed style fighters like andy hug, Kassaroui (sitan holland) and especially samir mohamed and farid khadir that demonstrate that the traditional moves can still be used effectively in full thai rules fights. Andy Hug was and still is one of my favourites and I will openly admit that he was an expert seido fighter. I do think Mushashi is totally different however and the reason for this I think is because the thai style is so suited to the K1 (aerts, iggy, bonjasky,Lebanner and Hoost are all examples of this) It has nothing to do with Thai Boxing being better than the other styles like Brian has suggested just that the moves are more basic and less risky in MY opinion. Low kicking is really the best way to stop the boxers and that was well demonstrated on Monday.

Hi Alan! How're you doing?

Williams did really well against Tyson - I thought Williams would fold under the pressure but he dug deep and really proved himself a worthy victor, not only to us but himself as well!!! He'll hopefully be a much stronger fighter and person now. But I do believe that boxers can't just rely on punching to win in K1, they need to learn how to recognise, accept and be conditioned against kicks and knees, if not to throw them themselves. I don't think it was the boxing ability of the opponents on monday, just their lack of knowledge and preparation. As we see with Botha, if you start getting the knowledge, improvements can be made.

Albeit, if you get hit by any top K1 fighter or boxer, well, you're gonna know about it and the fight result can change in an instant!

Different styles, different training....

I don't rate Kliscko - seen him taken apart by Barrington Patterson and KO'd big time by Pele Reid - don't rate him as a boxer or kickboxer, not up at the levels of top K1 fighters or Lewis.

Although overall the heavyweight boxing category is poor at the mo by way of quality, Williams, our Matt Skelton and Audley Harrison are raising it back up...there's hope that the quality will return!

I agree - lets get back to skilled martial artists against each other. But that includes boxers - they just have to learn a bit!! Chuckle!

Dekkers style? Here's one. He is a great sportsman, who had a Thai boxing background. He took what ever worked, added it to his already great Thai base, and then showed us what greatness was! But again, it is the person, not the art.

Adapt or die is the old adage?

Oh, and I definately agree about the low risk!

I'm enjoying this thread, its really got everyone thinking!!

Smiler

Brian ,1. how many british instructors do you actually know? 2,to use the word elitist is wrong there are good and bad instructors the world over the word i would use is pureist i believe we all started the arts we did because of the obvious interest we had in that said art at the beginning of training .......i am not for one second knocking other styles just praising the style i am part of, if i wanted to bastardise this sport by mixing in other styles then i would be apart of something other than Muaythai and i dont want that .... i Brian am a pureist not as you so sweepingly put it eliteist or does it you tell me!!!

There's a saying in my place like "You cannot s**t on someone's tastes" :) Ok. But a balanced view should need reflexion on how much we can be biased in seeing only the minuses of what we don't like (not dislike, just don't like). Humans tend to see quality in what they cherish, lack of value in what they neglect and evil in what they distaste. This is somehow natural. But it should not lead to us undervalueing the things we don't have on our top 1 badge :) Tendence is also, when something we don't like becomes lesser, not by lack of value but because the natural waxing and waning of any human construction, to rush and state that time of doom has come. Many times evolution proves that we should have known better.

Know what i Like About Brian ?
he does offer a Good Side toa Argument !
me and Him Have had a Few Ask Him?
And i like Him even More Now hes Typing in Sandy Speak and "Caps"!
:-p


You See if you `Shout` ! People "Further Away Can Hear you" !!!!!!!!!!!
:-))))))))))))))))))))))

no problem,Farhad.
i know i`m weird lol.

that`s growing into what i call an "offline"-thread.
explanation:i can only be online XX hours per month without extra-payment,so i
keep long(and intersting) texts for the end of a web-"session" to read them after getting dis-connected.

interesting what Unicorn says,will think about that.

also good that SANDY keeps this from becomiong TOO serious
and grim. one could argue that`s NOT mad,but in contrary makes sense !
(no offence meant lol !)
perhaps this thread will reach the 400 quicker than you-know-which :P !

The concept of a god or gods was created by mankind. You may choose to believe in it or not or you may simply consider yourself as an agnostic when it comes to it. However those who believe in it have no evidence to support their belief in my view. In fact there's no logical argument to sustain that permisse. It's like saying jesus christ was an alien and that's why he could do all those miracles. I mean no disrespect to christians, i just don't follow any religion and surely don't believe in those kind of stories.

I dont post too much nowadays, have neither the time nor the inclination. But I still read occasionally, and I just wanted to pop up and congratulate Brian for coming out and saying what I thought but could never be bothered typing RE:Elitist instructors.

There's still a couple of old faces posting on here, the same ones that have had the right sort of attitudes for years. I guess thats why they have stood the test of time...reading unicorn's posts reminds me of the good old days of ax :)

Dan

Hi Grim, Well im Going "MAD" i thought i posted? to Say How are you and Nice to see ya On here !
And
If anyone want to go M.A.D. with me ?
and Also if you Do Thai-Boxing etc:
`Doesnt matter if your MAD but if you are? it Helps` Lol
:-p

Brian, what do I consider full Muay Thai rules... elbows, knees to the head, 5 rounds of 3 minutes.

What do you consider full Muay Thai rules?

And yes I did unfortunatley read your comments about change...

There have been changes in Muay Thai that have had to come about, such as no kicks to the groin, refraining from butting, no ploughing your opponent, no sticking your opponent into the canvas like a big javelin... lol. But I think you must agree that these changes where more out of necessity.

To answer your question, if the Thai's themselves took elbows out!
Then I guess I would want to be part of the new purist group of the Muay Thai of old school, where elbows could still be used.

Would that be wrong, would I then be part of an extreme purist group? I doubt it, I would still be a Muay Thai fan.

As with the new rules of no elbows, would probably come along a new name!
Muay Mai Me Sork Thai! Lol

I keep hearing how all K1 fighters have there own style and then cross train or take things from other styles. To me it looks like the guys who started as Thai boxers stay as Thai boxers. Now correct me if I'm wrong (as I'm sure you will) but as far as I can see Ignashov, Bonjasky Martin Holm , John Wayne Parr, Masato and Buakaw Por Pramuk plus many more are Muay Thai fighters that slightly modify their style to fight under K-1 rules and by modify I mean don't use elbows and a lot of clinch, now I don't see how many of them have cross trained and use moves from other styles. But when you see fighters from other styles that have cross trained what do they cross train in? Maybe a bit of boxing but apart from that it's all Muay Thai. Maybe I'm wrong but I find it difficult to believe that there are Karate practitioners cross training in Taekwondo or kung fu and when it comes to some fighters it would be interesting to know if they still train in their original styles at all, so I agree with Alan, if Mushashi trains like a Thai boxer and fights like a Thai boxer that makes him a Thai boxer.

ahhh but is k-1 thaiboxing?

But is it Kickboxing?

I am concerned, as a Thai Boxing practitioner that the attitude of other Thai practicioners on this thread seems to be a sense of superiority, and snobery that to be honest has been the downfall of plenty of other Martial arts over time ...this doesn't seem to me to be the martials arts way at all ... i.e. you learn from whoever you can maintain respect and take what works and incorporate it into your style.

Thai boxing is no doubt one of the, if not the most effective stand up ring sport - but this sort of purist attitude will only do it a disservice and possbily cost it in the long term ... Thai boxers have certainly adapted Western Boxing skills into their style for example they have acknowledged what can improve what they have and incorporated it in to their style ... if all of a sudden a different kind of kick from another style became effective I am certain the thais would adopt it and develop a defence for it ... doesn't meam they all of a sudden they become karate practitioners ... this definition on what style you belong is a personal thing and often relates to where you see your beginning's as having started, so basically I don't see what the hang up is about.

Musashi still trains with Sedio,his trainers are Seido and he regards himself as being a Sedio practitioner therefore he is one, Filiho most cetainly is the same with regard to Kyokoshin alhtough he trains his boxing exclisvely with Fai Falamoe, Le Banner comes from a kickboxing background and not a Thai background alhtough he has taken on Thai trainers from time to time, Ray Sefo despite what many think - comes from a Thai Boxing back ground although he started with Wing Chun - . Alexey is certainly a pure Thai Boxer. But his Trainer Andre certainly doesn't come from a Thai boxing background (although he has adopted Thai training almost exlcusively)- if Gary Goodridge takes on a Thai trainer and adapts Thai boxing to his reportoire - does that make him a Thai Boxer or a more complete MMA fighter? I think that decision is up to him.

I feel that a purist attitude is more detrimental and constructive - Although I agree with Alan about certain bouts in K-1 be a farce - some of the subsequent comments about who and what is and isn't a Thai boxer I could disagree more. And at the end of the day I don't really care as long as I am watching a good fight conducted in good spirit in the ring.

Lightning Mike is a smart man...

alan - "Just because we weren't there during the process of evolution doesnt mean that we dont know anything Brian"

How many times do i have to say...
"I did not say that you do not know anything about Muay Thai" ?

Here is what I said...
"You do not know what Muay Thai is".

Singto..
The changes in Muay Thai came out of necessity? They still do glove-less fighting in surrounding regions and outskirts of Thailand. Obviously a glove is not a necessity. Neither is a ring. Neither is the removal of the plough, as it's been done for hundreds of years before it was finally banned. They do these things to make the sport palpatable to the public.

Your definition of Full Rules Muay Thai is Modified Muay Thai.
The Muay Thai that you know and love today is Modified Muay Thai.
The Muay Thai competitions in Lumphini and Radjadamnern stadiums is Modified Muay Thai.
Muay Thai was modified to hell and back before you were even born.
You do not fully know what Muay Thai is.

Humility. C'mon guys. Damn.

Tat2...
"if i wanted to bastardise this sport by mixing in other styles then i would be apart of something other than Muaythai and i dont want that"

Do you understand that you're a "purist" of a "bastardized" style?
Muay Thai was already "bastardized" before you got involved with it.
Purist...Elitist...just word games. They are effectively the same in this conversation.

Perhaps you have a different definition of "bastardized" than I do.
What exactly do you mean by "bastardized" in this context?

Influenced?
Changed?

The dictionary definition is "To lower in quality or character; debase."

I'm sure if the original creators of Muay Siam saw what it has turned into today, they would call it "bastardized".

All of this is relative. Do you see that?

Yeah Mike. You said it alright. It's up to the fighter. I'm training Kyokushin Karate/Kickboxing and my master has only competed in Kickboxing and K-1. Well, he did participate once in a Kyokushin World Tournment back in 1999 if i'm not mistaken and also here in Portugal but he mainly competes in Kicboxing and Boxing tournments. So, does that make me a Kicboxer ?

Like i said before many Karate schools in Japan adopted Muay Thai/ Kickboxing techniques the same way they adopted other techniques from other martial arts. The japanese have been doing this since ancient times. Not only when it comes to martial science but also for concerns architecture, literature, technology, music... I mean, most of their ancient culture has it's roots in the China and Korea. But does that make them chinese or koreans ? It does not.
The same happnes with those Karate fighters that joined K-1. Even though they adopted Muay Thai techniques and training methods, they still remain as Karateka.
As to what concerns Musashi, i must reminf you that Seido Karate is very close to Muay Thai in technical aspects of fighting. Maybe even closer in these days. By they way it's also becoming more common to see Karate fighters competing in Kickboxing events.
Kyokushin Karate became more famous to me when Kenji Kurosaki, Tadashi Nakamura and Toshio Fujiwara went to fight in Thailand back in 1964. And again in 1974 with Yoshiji Soeno, the founder of Shidokan Karate. I think some of this challenging spirit was forgotten as many Kyokushin practicioners were convinced that their fighting style was supreme and closed their eys to the development of other martial arts.
I think things are geting better now thanks to Francsico Filho and Shoeki Matsui who have an effort to create a new competition format for Kyokushin fighters where they get the chance to strugle against fighters from other karate styles and diferent martial arts. This new project is called ishigeki. I'm not sure if has a tournment definition yet but i hope it does soon.

But even then, i think Karate needs also a free fighting open tournment urgently with the proper organisation. Some Karate schools such as Shidokan, Daido and Shinbukan (and maybe others)have adopted grapling skills from Ju-jutsu and Judo and their tournments have rules similar to those of Pride. Shidokan Karate is a bit diferent as it mixes traditional Kyokushin rules, with K-1 rules and Pride rules. As for Daido Karate, they use helmets and special gloves. The elbows, submissions, clinching, throwing, knees striles are allowed. Still, it contunes to be Karate and not Ju-jutsu, unless you consider Karate as a form of Ju-jutsu. Finally for what concerns Shinbukan Karate, thios might be the most brutal Karate style i've heard in a few years, as they use no gloves or helmets and the rules are similar to Pride with elbows included.

ok ok ok ok ! Got it ! The meaning Of Life....
er Thai-Kickboxing ! :-))))))))))))

We Here in the U.K. Do U.K. Muay-thai Kickboxing
Scottish / English etc:
Its
American Thai-Kickboxing
Thailand Thai-Kickboxing
Australian Thai-Kickboxing
New Zealand Thai-Kickboxing
Japanese Thai-Kickboxing !!!!!!!!!!! :-)))))))))))))
etc: etc: etc:

Bastar*ized ?
Muay-Thai without a Dad ! ?
:-p

pictures taken from a Daido Karate Tournment

pictures taken from a Daido Karate Tournment

pictures taken from a Daido Karate Tournment

pictures taken from a Daido Karate Tournment

pictures taken from a Daido Karate Tournment

pictures taken from a Daido Karate Tournment

Daido Karate Tournment : Team Japan vs Team France

Daido Karate Tournment : Team Japan vs Team France

Daido Karate Tournment : Team Japan vs Team France

Daido Karate Tournment : Team Japan vs Team France

Daido Karate Tournment : Team Japan vs Team France

Daido Karate Tournment : Team Japan vs Team France

Daido Karate Tournment : Team Japan vs Team France

Daido Karate Tournment : Team Japan vs Team France

Shinbukan Karate

Is it a known fact that kickboxing was introduced by Japanese? Japan never had kickboxing before, so how did they develope kick boxing movements? While thais did have punches, I'd admit that Thai good punchers use boxing punching technique. I concur with Alan that Thai kick has a unique movement that is immediately recognised by a muaythai boxer. You do not kick as if you were kicking a football. Many kick boxers do not have the knowledge to kick Thai style. But when a kick boxer kicks like a Thai, it cannot be denied. However, Japanese do not admit to many things they do. I don't think this is a big issue, but many people are irritated by it and I don't blame them. Let it be known that Thais are not born with ability to do muaythai kick, but most Thais believe that Thais have this gift . After all, they kick in their fights since childhood.

Top pic Moon Landing
and Rest Mostly Thai-Boxing with Gis on ?
And its the Biggest Compliment in the World !!!!!

"To Copy a Original" the Undisputed Best "Muay-Thai"

Kyokushin Karate

Kyokushin Karate

Just a point to Brian
ref: the `Labels` Everyone Uses !
Here we see `3`
Muay-Thai Tae Kwon Do and Kick Boxing
`3` Seperate Styles
It really is Complicated ! But Like All ball Sports as many Relate us to,
Are Balls With Different Rules

Kyokushin Karate

Brian Ritchie writes:

Yes Sandy...I see that.

The funny thing about that, since you brought it up, is that Kickboxing there is presented as a "style". Yet, I have no idea what they mean by "kickboxing" on that website. Not unless I see some photos.

It is like a basketball coach telling people that he teaches people to "play ball" without being specific about it being basketball, baseball, football, etc. In certain regions, it would be assumed that he means bastketball. In other regions, they may assume the coach means baseball. In England, they might assume he means football.

So is that "Kickboxing" class above waist? low kicks? is it Modified Muay Thai? Is it a non-contact class? Kickboxing remains a generic term.




"But there it is Alongside and seperate to"

Muay-Thai !!!!!!!!!

Kyokushin Karate

Kyokushin Karate

Kyokushin Karate

Kyokushin Karate

Kyokushin Karate

Kyokushin Karate : Nicholas Pettas training for K-1

haha I Think we Got the Pic: ? Pics: ?
Jeez you on a Mission ? lol Sponsored By Karate Gis? :-p
What ya saying Sonik?
and Heard mas Oyama Went to Thailand And learned the Low Kicks and Knees
The best Compiment !
And Good On Him for having a Open mind to what Works the best !
:-)

Last Pic:
Muay-Thai Gym ! Muay thai Shorts ! Muay-Thai Trainer ( master Toddy )
and Muay-Thai Style Kick !

With Muay-Thai in Thai on Shorts and Training Suit
Where does it say ? Karate Kyukoshin?

Last Pic:
Muay-Thai Gym ! Muay thai Shorts ! Muay-Thai Trainer ( master Toddy )
and Muay-Thai Style Kick !

Kyokushin Karate

Kyokushin Karate

Kyokushin Karate

Kyokushin Karate

Kyokushin Karate

stop it
Stop it We Got the Pic:

Lol! relax Sandy! I just like these pictures i think it would be cool to share. As you can see modern Karate has been influenced by Muay Thai and Ju-jutsu/Judo.

Sandy do you have a problem with the gi ? I mean i train with a gi and i also train with shorts. I find the Kyokushin gi very cool to wear but the shorts are of course more confortable. Gives you less trouble.

Kyokushin Karate

Kyokushin Karate

Kyokushin Karate

:-) Great pics: Actually And I Used to Wear a Gi for Karate and Jui Jitsu for About 3 years !
No probs: Just Restrictive, after Thai Shorts / Uniform ! Would Find it hard to Go back to wearing one ! After 20 years of Freedom
Thai = Free

That's me kickin' the bag

That's our instructor/sensei kickin't the bag

That's me again

cheers and This Pic: Where?
Lol :-p

Saprring at the gym

This last pics were taken at our gym/dojo whatever you prefer to call it. This was only to illustrate how modern Karate adopted Muay Thai techniques mainly. I think what pisses some people of is the fact that many poeple who consider themselves as Karateka adopted these techniques and sometimes don't admit it. Personally i consider myself as a Karate guy but also as a Kickboxer or Muay Thai fighter....

Sandy Holt writes:

:-) Great pics: Actually And I Used to Wear a Gi for Karate and Jui Jitsu for About 3 years !
No probs: Just Restrictive, after Thai Shorts / Uniform ! Would Find it hard to Go back to wearing one ! After 20 years of Freedom
Thai = Free


Lol! Didn't know that part of your life! Well i have to admit that i hardy use the the full gi. Mosto of the time i only wear the those Karate pants or Muay Thai / Kickboxing shorts. Much more confortable with the shorts i admit.

Image of "ano-pankration" (stand-up striking match), ancient Greece, documented to the 648 B.C. How in God's (errm Zeus') name did they dare to do roundkicks without a trip to Thailand.

LOL Unicorn - thanks for providing proof of my earlier point re Pancrase.

So that vase is 2,652 years old and Muay Thai is how old? How mamy Greeks travelled to Thailand - I think you could safely say none. And if this is documented on popular utensils of the period then it is logical to state that the practice was known and widespread therefore cultures such as the Phoenicians, Assyrians, Byzantines, etc. would also be familiar with these techniques and / or influenced them.


Must be the end of any possible arguement except those blind to concrete facts and artifacts. Brian is 100% correct the Muay Thai we know and love today has continuously evolved and will continue to evolve to suit the times due to one of its foremost qualities - practicality!

It's good that sonik posted several photoes so we can discuss real Thai kick style. Note sonik post time 0:4:16.19 Now, this isn't muaythai style. It's a kick none the less. Nether is post time 4:28:31. Sonik's own Post4:43:33 upper body is muaythai, but the standing leg is not, while his teacher's kick does not resemble muaythai kick. To see a perfect muaythai kick, go to the main page and see Als gym's banner. Now, can any one see the differences which are obvious and explain to us all?

I thought that Muay Thai was Muay Thai

Muay Boran was Muay Boran
Muay Chaiya was Muay Chaiya
Muay Pahuyuth was Muay Pahuyuth
Muay Kai Cherk was Muay Kai Cherk

Muay Thai has developed and transformed through the various styles above, but it is in its own right a style, unique from the above. And unique from the hybrids that have developed through cross training.

I have never said to know fully what Muay Thai is, but my understanding of it over the last ten years living, eating, training, teaching, learning here and in Thailand, gives me a pretty damn good overview. Dont disrespect that.

I agree with you about peoples misconception about what Muay Thai is, as people look at the above styles, and many hybrids, Thai Kick Boxing, Kick Thai, Muay Kick Boxing, Thai Boxing, so on and so on. But for me, in my purist opinion Muay Thai is as it is today in Thailand (and hasnt changed that much in the last ten years), and if your lucky, you get the plough, groin shots, butting and javelin, thrown in for good measure.

LAS VEGAS -- Rick Roufus, left, delivers a blow to the body of Taro Akebono of Japan during the third round of the K-1 Battle of Bellagio III at Bellagio in Las Vegas. Roufus won the fight by a unanimous decision. (08/07/04 AP photo)

From here

wow David ( Rick ) and Goliath Akebono

Is it a known fact that kickboxing was introduced by Japanese? Japan never had kickboxing before, so how did they develope kick boxing movements?

Those sneaky Japanese must have ripped the thai's off. We all know that thailand is the origin of all Kickboxing. They can't prove it, evedence points to the khmer, but your thai master said it, so it must be so...


"To see a perfect muaythai kick, go to the main page and see Als gym's banner."

Funny, every camp in thailand seems to have their own version of the "perfect" thai kick. Some with more hip than others, some with very little.

It is well documented that Japanese adopted the Thai kick in their styles. Just like it is well documented that Muay Thai adopted western boxing into their style. What is the problem? Why must the rest of the world kiss thailands ass for a physical movement?

Picture this, Musashi wins the K-1 GP this year. In his acceptance speach he credits his Mother for always believing in him, his good friend Gonnosuke for making him tough, and all of thailand for letting him use their deadly kicking style even though they may have not even created it.
Give me a break, you guys need to get over yourselves. No one is going to kiss your ass for using a physical movement.

Dear Matt, I feel that when a kick boxer uses a karate kick in kickboxing, muaythai cannot claim it's a muaythai kick. Many thais mistakenly think that any kick is a muaythai kick, and this is not true. Also, being a thai doesn't automatically make that person know muaythai kick even though he may have been kicking in his fights since childhood. I like your pic above. It confirms American saying "Nothing beats cubic inches".

Lol!Sports Muay Thai, we kick Kyokushin style and and Muay Thai style. But yeah in those pics it's a Kyokushin kick. If i find more pics from the gym training i'll post them.

But for now, Muay Thai

Lol!Sports Muay Thai, we kick Kyokushin style and and Muay Thai style. But yeah in those pics it's more of a Kyokushin kick. If i find more pics from the gym training i'll post them.

But for now, Muay Thai

Muay Thai

Muay Thai : Samkor

Muay Thai : Samkor

Muay Thai : Samkor

Image of "ano-pankration" (stand-up striking match), ancient Greece, documented to the 648 B.C. How in God's (errm Zeus') name did they dare to do roundkicks without a trip to Thailand.

ups! The last ones were taken in Japan. In the last pic is Jean Skarbowski with a front kick

God, Sorry. Left the pc opened for some hours and the page refreshed by a mistook command. Someone pls. erase the reload :)

Muay Thai - Toshiyo Fujiwara above kickin'

people from my gym again sparring

people from my gym again sparring

me again in a strange angle

sparring session

Muay Thai : Storm Tournment in Brasil

Muay Thai : Storm Tournment in Brasil

Muay Thai : Storm Tournment in Brasil

Muay Thai : Storm Tournment in Brasil

Muay Thai : Storm Tournment in Brasil

Muay Thai : Storm Tournment in Brasil

Muay Thai : Storm Tournment in Brasil

Caption: "Woah, sit on me face and tell me that you love me!"

Gahhh, bloody image linker!

That's for that picture that matt posted of the fat lad wrestling the small guy in blue.

There is Fit Lard and Size Does Count !
Unless its a lady your trying to Convince?
:-p
:-)))))))))))

"200" :-)))))))))))))

Oh And ref: wether its a This Kick or that Kick ?
its the Ones that Land and Hurt the Most and Do the Damage that Counts !
Just so happens its the Thai Ones That "DO"

First chance I have had to read this thread properly, good debate.

I remembered the following thread:

http://message.axkickboxing.com/index.phtml?action=dispthread&topic=10025&junk=1071215968.42389

I`m assuming these pics are replicated authentic techniques, and I don`t imagine many gyms teach most of them nowadays. This shows just how much Muay Thai has actually lost over the years as regards techniques now used, never mind the glass shard hand dipping etc., and how what we practice now really is a fairly diluted version.

Yep Phil everything seams to Dilute and
2 Things are Inevitable
"Change" and Death !!

You kn ow as a fighter which most of us are - whensome guy lands as bloody good kick to the thigh or ribs - I bet you don't stop and think "Well that was a very powerful Thai Style / Karate Style / Soccer Style kick delivered with full hip extension as taught to me by Master Ronaldo - nope I'm betting you will be thinking "shit thats a bloody hard kick - don't want to get cracked by that again"

Come guys the most inoovative people in the world are ideas theives, they take soemthing work on it modify it and thats how we all progress ... nothing is static ... standing still means stagnent ... We are all just lucky that we have such wonderful styles on which to base our knowledge and progress ... we should all value and revere our Masters / Teachers / Past as provding a wonderful foundation for moving evolving and growing ...

Having said all that I think that right now that Pound for pound Thai fighters are the best stand up fighters in the world and there is much we can and should learn from that.

I'm off to play some football and practice my Thai kick on the penalty spot.

hha LOL
I'm off to play some football and practice my Thai kick on the penalty spot.

Hey Smiller. Big and real respect to your achievements and attitude. When I said ' without MT you would all be kicking apples off of swords, I was more than aware that Sandy/Sken made a business out of doing so. I trained my first 4 years under Sken instructors.
I see it needs more explaination: I never wanted/needed someone elses belief system. Or whatever you may call it. I was quite quite happy with my centre. I was hugely happy that I found (by accident) a style that wasnt martial arts but a fighting sport -once I found a Toddy instructor - Dave Mclennon of Kings gym. I resisted all pressure to follow a grading/money making system.
Now fair is fair and Sken/Sandy did what they did to bring MT to the public awareness, given where the public psyche was at that time. Respect to thier wisdom.
Again, in fairness, I was not aware of the full contact (is there any other?) competitions around in the UK at the time. Though if they included archaic philosophies I would have rejected them).

Give credit where it is due - I hold that there was no arena for true fighting (western boxing excluded) before MT came to the fore. It was all 'kicking apples off of swords'. Etc ie. martial arts demos. breaking boards, baseball bats and grading bollox.

K1? it will go where it goes. I dont give a shit.

No suprise that the 'yanks' want to play it down/addapt the rules. Same as the japanese - cant win - gripe.

Sid, no need to say things like "adapt play down rules/ cant win - gripe"

K-1 is a different sport to MT
K-1 is an open platform for all martial arts

So why all these ppl are getting mad with it i dont know

they're getting 'mad'(as you say) with it because the best are not fighting the best..the pro boxers being brought in to it are for publicity, not to improve the spectacle itself and as I watched the other week with the K1 MMA fights the set-ups are so obvious it's a joke.

Farhad you are right, I didnt need to say the last bit.

fair Comments Sid ! Good Analogy !


But K-1 Needs to Get Back on Track !

I didnt see the show Monday, and have only just had time to read this thread.

I dont like the fact that over blown, out dated, fat ex-boxers or football players or any other 'sportsman' for that matter, get these high profile fights with the big purses, when there are far more deserving K1 fighters out there who would love the oppotunity.
Take Gary Turner for example. He is 2 time UK K1 champion, has a 11-4 record in K1, has won 11 world titles at various martial art styles, will travel ANYWHERE to fight, and 'beat' ( I know it was scored a draw!) Mike Macdonald who is ranked very highly on the K1 circuit. Yet Gary finds it hard to get anyone to fight him on the international scene.
(sorry if Im making you blush Gary!!LOL)

Give the Wee Lad a Chance ! C'Mon K-1 Is Gary to Happy and Good Looking ? maybe thats Why?

Give the Wee Lad a Chance ! C'Mon K-1 Is Gary to Happy and Good Looking ? maybe thats Why?

Granny Smiths? or Royal Gals? or a Cox's Pippin?
:-p

Woops a Bit Big Sorry.... and Forget Spot the Ball !!!!!!! :-)))
Spot the Apple LOL `X` Marks the Spot
:-p

Sonik, Your ltter photoes showed Muaythai kicks. My intention is not to debate who has better kick.

Sonik, Your latter photoes showed Muaythai kicks. My intention is not to debate who has better kick.

lol sandy
i can see two bits of red in the last pici - one the apple and the other your toe?

lol Sid ! Could Be :-p

or a Golden Delicious ?

Amazing, Sandy!!!!!!!!

Just browsing old topics after too much Christmas pud and came across this thread, one I had somehow missed previously. Having read the interesting exchange of ideas on the thread I thought I’d put in my “10 pence worth”.



I feel there have been valid points made on both sides of the argument. However, there are three specific points I would like to comment on:

a)“Muay Thai has evolves [sic] HEAVILY over the years”

b) “Kickboxing: Full Contact, Muay Thai, K-1, San Shou/Sanda, International style
ect [sic]... Racquet sports: Tennis, Table tennis, Badminton, Racquet ball, Paddle ball, Squash ect [sic]...”

c) “What I find hilarious is that some seem to take the angle that because Muay Thai uses elbows that they have sole propietaery [sic] right to defining their syle [sic] by its usage”





a)“Muay Thai has evolves [sic] HEAVILY over the years”

Brian suggests that MuayThai is an evolving sport that has adapted and changed over its many years of development. I agree completely with this, it certainly has adapted and changed just as every sport does. However, I don’t see this as an argument against Alan’s position concerning his interest in “full” MuayThai rules. There is a set of MuayThai rules and a body of professionals, referees/judges, who are the ‘gatekeepers’ of how those rules are applied. These rules and the way they are applied are different than those of other combat sports, and as a result favour particular fighting strategies and styles. If Alan prefers these rules, and the associated styles that have developed to exploit them, rather than the numerous modifications, then he is entitled to do so. Some people prefer Gaelic football or Australian Rules football over Soccer, some individuals prefer squash over racketball. It is inevitable that for all sorts of reasons different people will prefer different sports.



b) “Kickboxing: Full Contact, Muay Thai, K-1, San Shou/Sanda, International style
ect [sic]... Racquet sports: Tennis, Table tennis, Badminton, Racquet ball, Paddle ball, Squash ect [sic]...”

Matt uses the analogy of ‘racket sports’ to support his proposed taxonomy. Initially this particular analogy may seem reasonable in a superficial sense. However, it isn’t logical given the analogy provided. If one makes a direct comparison with this taxonomy it would perhaps be more accurate to use the subset “gloved sports” rather than using the term “kickboxing”. Particularly given that common element used to decide whether a sport fits into this particular category or not is the generic term given to the common implement used by those sports: the racket in racket sports and the gloved fist in the combat sports.



I am sure there would be less opposition to MuayThai being placed in a subset called ‘combat sports’, or the smaller subset ‘ring combat sports’ or the even smaller subset ‘gloved ring combat sports’. Personally I favour using terms that particular groups find suitable to describe themselves and the activities they participate in; terms they don’t find offensive. I certainly don’t find the word ‘Japs’ an appropriate term to describe people born in Japan or who hold Japanese passports. So if MuayThai practitioners find the term ‘kickboxing’ offensive when it is applied to their sport, I feel it would be more appropriate to use a generic term that they accept and don’t find offensive. I am not sure of the motivation of those who wish to suggest MuayThai is a form of kickboxing, unless they feel it allows them either to feel associated with the that sport, or perhaps wish to exercise some form of hegemonic control over it. Personally, I don’t consider MuayThai to be part of a subset called ‘kickboxing’, nor do I consider kickboxing to be part of a subset called ‘MuayThai’. However, I do think they both can be considered part of a subset of ‘ring combat sports’.



c) “What I find hilarious is that some seem to take the angle that because Muay Thai uses elbows that they have sole propietaery [sic] right to defining their syle [sic] by its usage”

I think non-MuayThai specialists might consider that MuayThai is defined by the use of elbows, but few of those who really understand the art would. Although allowing elbows to the head in the rules makes a difference to the ‘style’ used it certainly doesn’t define the style. I feel this is particularly true since a number of martial arts use elbows, even if generally not usually in full-contact competition. However, I suggest the way in which the boxers, move, elbow, knee, clinch and kick does define the style. For me it is the style of delivery that defines MuayThai and not only the type of weapons used.

Good post

Lord Micky Charlie Yo De man LOL :-p
luv ya Charlie !

Kickin into 2005 with awsome articulation young charlie!!! I like the post. I like the end piece where your definition of Muay Thai comes from 'the style of delivery, how true is that!! it takes seconds to spot and see the true style of Muay Thai. Another point to make is that just because people compete in a Muay Thai contest doent make them practioners of that style just practioners of the sport! opening point to the argument at the very first post was derived from the fact that I thought that Mushashi

Kickin into 2005 with awsome articulation young charlie!!! I like the post. I like the end piece where your definition of Muay Thai comes from 'the style of delivery' how true is that!! it takes seconds to spot and see the true style of Muay Thai. Another point to make is that just because people compete in a Muay Thai contest doent make them practioners of that style just practioners of the sport! One of my opening points to the argument at the very first post was derived from the fact that I thought that Mushashi was now a full fledged Muay Thai fighter in his stance, delivery of kick, long knee manouvre and low kick. As charlie points out very well it is from this delivery that we see and define the style and I am saying that he has abandoned his traditional style of Seido in favour of a style that has dominated the K1 throughout it's history. That for those of you that do not know is Muay Thai as would be evident in the fact that Bonjasky, Hoost, Aerts,Ignashov have been dominating it for so long. In fact in the 12 year history it has been won by Muay Thai practoners 9 times and three times by outside styles However using mostly Muay Thai techniques.


I am going to start a new post about the disgrace of last nights descisions!! I was appaled by the whole thing and couldnt believe the bias, outrageous judging i saw.

LOL did you hear Kaokloi is going back down to 70KG and trying to win the K1 max then bulking up to fight the K1 again, what a nutter!
I dont know why they feel the need in K1 and superleague to say that every thai who fights on it is a former rachachatatamon and wumpunny champion either!!!

Buakow boy that is because most of them havent got a clue. They can't even pronounce the stadium names properly of Rajadamnern or Lumpinee!! Those guys are outside of that fighting circle now. Champions of those two stadiums are far too good for the likes of k1 max and they know it. They fight schedules are too hectic to take time out. As I said on an earlier thread most people only start giving credit to great thai fighters like Buakow or Kaoklai when they see them fighting on television. This is without clinch or elbow aswell. Kaoklai was severly robbed last night imo against Mushashi. It was a disgrace. He won all the four rounds. Mushashi couldnt get anywhere near him and got kicked to the legs and body at will. He even got thrown in the clinch a few times. Any other thoughts on this

Must agree with Alan my mate came round and was like wtf is the commentator on about,should be able to pronounce things properley.

thought Kaoklai won didnt he????
and Who was the Commentators?

not the semi final fight against mushashi he didnt!!!! bad bad bad all round

No he Lost v Musashi after ko,ing mighty mo,shite decision.

just to clarify the situation regarding thai fighters to those that dont know (because their are many that dont!) Their are two main stadiums in Thailand. They are Lumpinee and Rajadamnern. They are both in Bangkok. Fighters rally up from the age of six and seven to get into these stadiums and fight. A champion of a stadium in Thailand IS THE BEST FIGHTER IN THE WORLD imo . There are many other stadiums in Thailand all round and all work to get to the mecca of Raja and Lumpinee! An average stadium champion is between 16 and 23 and has had over 100 fights , many with over 150 to 200 fights. For the most part when they have finished at the stadiums, that is when they cant make the weight or dont have as many wins any more they start to compete in Europe. This is when we see them on k1 and k1 max, superleague etc etc. They are still in awesome condition and will tear apart most non thai fighters. Get no illusions about this. Evidence has been seen in recent years what the likes of Johmod, Malipet, Sakmongkol, Buakow,Samkor, Khaoklai etc etc can do when they are unleashed. Occasionally you may see a current stadium fighter outside of Thailand fighting but it isnt that often. When they are champions they stay and fight often, defending all the time the prestige and honour of winning those belts. This is the place to live, fight and win. Make no mistake. The thais are to muay thai what the americans are to baseball and football. It is their national sport and it has an ancient tradition that goes back farther than we can imagine. Thailand boasts over 60,000 Thai Boxers. The facts speak for themselves. We have a long way to go and the best way is to live, train, eat, sleep and fight with them. Start young, fight often and look after yourself. Another thing! fights in Thailand are five three minute rounds, full rules only. NO bastardisations of it. This is where the sport was created and evolved. The introdction of a ring and scoring system is the same as the marquis of Queensbury except all eight limbs are utilised. That is why I love Muay Thai and I dont ever want to lose sight of this. Whenever we consider taking things out we should always consider why we started in the sport to begin with.

I like the fact we are a minority sport. I like the fact it is dangerous. I like the fact that we utilise all the limbs and that is why I abandoned boxing, karate, ninjitsu and all the other styles i studied to fight and teach in Muay Thai. I personally believe that if we introduced the same system here of 5 x 3 full rules padded and then onto non padding we would be better off. Make the fighters prepare longer, guards would be better, less brawling. Make an art out of the sport I love so much rather than killing it with watered down shit versions of it! Do what they do and that is how we will be as good. Not till then. Just how I feel not just about this thread but many. If you havent been to Thailand then go NOW!!! This is where you can learn the most and then you can understand why the likes of Buakow and Kaoklai are so good. Understand why I hate them being cheated. They deserve better.

vinny i love your short but bloody factual comments. My television is broken cos i picked it up and threw it across the room in temper and outrage!!! glad we see the same.

rusell stick with me mate you will go a long way!

hahahahahah nice one al' but im still leading ???? top posting Charlie and Alan....
What is the old saying ....." Just because a dog is born in a stable it don't make it a horse"......

Yet again i will say im not an elitist, not by a long way , i'm a purist

Hello Russ :-)

Thanks Alan i agree with if they are a champion of either stadium your the best muay thai fighter simple as Lumpinee being the better of the two but still there is not a massive divide between them.
Thing is too the weight difference yet muay thai as it is taught in Thailand suceeds over these big heavy more so called powerful boxers,technique is power as is knowledge thats the way it is,the old sayin now changes if ya can,t beat em cheat em.

Completely agree with the views of Alan and Vinny regarding Lumpinee and Radjadamnern champions. For me they are easily the very best MuayThai fighters in the world in every way. Although personally I prefer the atmosphere at Lumpinee (being a bit smaller), I am not sure that I agree completely with Vinny’s assertion that Lumpinee champions are better than Radjadamnern Champions though. I think it depends on the fighter in question. To illustrate this I mention Anuwat Kaewsamrit, he is Radjadamnern Champion and yet was voted boxer of the year. A number of fighters are ranked at both stadiums, holding similar ranking at each of the stadiums, to me this suggests a certain amount of parity.

The history certainly dicates that Lumpinee was the better of the stadiums but now it is pretty much all round the same. As Tony points out Anuwat getting the award does illustate the fact that they think he is the all round better fighter at that weight. Where fighters compete is all down to what deals the gym has with the promoter or stadium, in the same way we have here! It is all the same really. Lumpinee will however be torn down soon and a new stadium built. There is a lot of speculation about how it will look and whats involved so we will have to see. The plans now look certain. This could change the landscape of the fightscene somewhat in Thailand!

Both Stadiums are the BEST good Post Allan !
Each has Great Qualities ! and `2` Will always be better than `1`
:-)

IMO the current Lumpini champ is the best stand up fighter in the world at that weight end of story. goodnight.

ive heard from some guys who have seen the K-1 finals
guys who live locally some of whom have boxed a bit , some of whom are armchair supporters, one of whom is a black belt in karate and has kickboxed a bit, they all say the same things.

1. hoost should have won against bonjasky
2. musashi didnt beat ray, didnt beat the thai.
3. bonjasky vs musashi should have been 3 rounds only (round 1 was a 10-8 to bonjasky)

im not mega eager to see the show itself!

K1 is a joke now seen LeBanner v Saap c,mon its crap terrible.