What is Kyokushin?

I i know its a form of Japanese Karate
sometimes referred to as "knockdown"
Karate.

But, Can someone enlighten me as to the rules, and tell me whether
it is more like the old "full contact karate" which was a
precursor to FC KB, or does it have more of a martial arts emphasis.

also, Do they award belts to students like Judo
and traditional karate?

thanks-I hope this is not off topic??


dan

Kyokushin is known as the toughest karate form. Peter Smit started in Kyokushin, before kickboxing.

All kicks are alloud, punches (bare knuckels!!) only to the body.
Verey nice to see!

Oliver Sperling may be able to help on this one

A pretty good website is www.kyokushinmail.com.

K-1 features several players with a background in Kyokushinkai or its off-shoots.

Oliver will help a lot.

It is very different from FCR. It has no boxing aspects whatsoever. It is just a very tough form of karate. There also no running like in TKD, the two fighters square off and try to hold their ground.

The negative thing is that it is enormously political. It is run like a yakuza clan and they play very dirty. Nick Pettas can't fight for the K-1 because kyokushin has the market cornered on Japanese talent and will cut off Ishii if he gives Nick a fight. They also are openly nationalistic. Japanese vs. foreigner is, in their eyes, a match between us and them even though both fighters are kyokushin.

Great talent. Terrible management.

There's an extremely insightful video documentary called, i think, "Kyukoshin - the strongest karate" In which it follows closely a fearsome warrior called Willy, who, with no man brave enough to fight him, is forced to fight a grizzly bear as the only decent competition left to him.

It really is very cool, with one goddam mean affro, some wonderfully flared Gi, and awe inspiring skilful dubbing, the soundtrack is unrivalled. The actual fight scenes, well, you'll have to judge them for yourself.

I will gladly help, but Felix (CentralKickboxing.Org) and Ringo has said "most" there is to be said about Kyokushin karate.

Read this link to learn a little more about Kyokushin, or feel free to contact me:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyokushin

Looks like a primary school fight when you watch

[ Removed by moderation - Moderation@AxKickboxing.com]

Oliver, have you any Kyokushin K.O. pictures featuring head kicks or knees?

Give us something spectacular!

What about this:

http://www.filespace.co.uk/tkd/Kyokushin.Ryu.Narujima.KOs.Hightlight.by.Dye.wmv

It's 17MB and it's hosted on my server, so it might be a little slow.

By the way, the video contains a clip of Ryu Narujima fighting Franchisco Filho (of K-1 fame) under kyokushin rules.

Mas Oyama was the founder of Kyokushin Karate:

Here is a very useful link which I found on google:

http://www.fightingmaster.com/masters/oyama/

The belts start from white (obviously a beginner stage), and a grading takes place when moving from each belt/stage/kyu:

2Whites(10th/9th kyu)
2Blues(8th/7th kyu)
2Yellows(6th/5th kyu)
2Greens(4th/3rd kyu)
2Browns(2nd/1st kyu)(I think!)

1st Dan Black- A person is called "Sempai" out of respect
2nd Dan Black- Still "Sempai"
3rd Dan Black- Now Sensei
4th Dan Black- Sensei

Kyokushinkai Karate follows a syllabus, with things such as kicks, punches and kata's. Kyokushinkai Karate also makes a person very disciplined, from the manner in which it is taught.

Fighting-wise in tournaments, may vary depending on interclubs, national tournaments, and international tournaments.

dexter casey:

Andy Hug, Francisco Filho, Glaube Feitosa, Nicholas Pettas and Sam Greco to name just a few names, are/was all Kyokushin fighters, and they have all got plenty of punches on there nose in there fighting career, yet I have never seen any of them crying.

Wrestlers are also best in wrestling competitions, so are boxers in a boxing, and football players in football. Was you trying to make a conclusion? Have a little respect and use your brain, the next time you write a topic here on Ax.



Neil Holden,

Here is a knee strike in Kyokushin karate, from the 36th All Japan Tournament last year.

TEEJ,

5th Dan black belt and up are called "Shihan", and the president of the organization is called "Kancho". the founder of Kyokushin karate; Mas Oyama was called "Sosai".

kyokushin is a japanese fight discipline under karate umbrella ,however very different from the karate styles i.e.shotokan,wado-ryu,goju ryu in terms of kumite...the katas show similiarities with other karate styles(partly with okinawan styles) ,however when kumite(comptition) is concerned the applied technics are very different from other karate styles...the kicks,knees,elbows have been modified from muay thai after the contacts with thais (1968's/kurosaki)...also have some effects from korean styles since the founder (mas oyama) have been influenced by them in terms of kicks,as well...in a sense, it was a modern ,open minded style among other karate styles...

There are some people commenting on this thread who have no idea what they are talking about and therefore shouldn't be commenting.
As Oliver said have a little respect, if it wasn't for Kyokushin, K-1 would not have even started. Most Kyokushin fighters are hard fighters who are used to tournament style contest.

Thank you Oliver for the pics and comments, also Shoshin for your words of wisdom. I have great respect for all MA and anyone who is prepared to train and make the sacrifices to compete in the ring or on the mat. The reckless comments usually come from people who talk the talk but havn't walked the walk OSU! RTR

Yep Oliver, that's right "sosai"!...I forgot about that!

All the rest is just a bit of rough information, didnt want to add everything all in. Since its better for to see what everyone else says!

I must have just got confused about the 3rd and 4th Dan being Sensei.
It is Shihan though you're right. I've forgotten a lot of the information, since I was training last in kyokushin karate from 1994-2001, and havent been around the "karate" scene too much!

Thanks for reminding me of that btw, cheers.

soshin has right in a sense...if there would be no kyokushin :

*) muay thai in japan might be later start and due to it's natural result also kickboxing (japanese/ modified mt)...furthermore,the same also for holland since all the pioneer trainers who have started to kb(modified mt at that times was called kb)and later to mt were kyokushin people ...

*)it is right also to say that one of the purposes of k-1 was to show the power of seidokaikan fighters who derivated from kyokushin...if there would not have been kyokushin, there would be most possible no seidokaikan and k-1...

Neat photo Oliver!

Calling kyokushin "knockdown karate" is not realy accurate. Kyokushin was the FIRST knockdown karate style, but nowdays there are many (who basicaly all derrives from kyokushin in some way) -Ashihara karate, seidokaikan karate, shidokan karate, world Oyama karate, Enshin karate -the list is long.
Unfortunaly kyokushin is very splintered politicaly and the different factions are all fighting each other in courts -there is little or no cooperation.

Also there are NO pro fighters in kyokushin (or most other knockdown karate style) it is strictly amature fighters. the exeptions are kyokushin fighters who has taken up other sports to use their skills in (Filho, Feitosa, Andy Hug etc). but there are no pro knockdown karate circuis.
Knockdown karate is NOT the same as "full contact karate" as it was done in the US.

Technicaly kyokushin is not realy all that different from shotokan or gojuryu (the two karate styles that the founder combined to make the style) and all other karate styles, but when it comes down to fighting it is VERY different.
Kyokushin has drawn some inspiration from thaiboxing in its techniques, but much, MUCH less than thai enthusiast like to claim.

Competition rules are no punches (including elbows) to the head, kicks (and knees) are allowed anywhere exept to throat, groin and directly to the spine. No protection exept a cup. If you down/incapacitate your opponent for more than 5 sec, or twice for less than 5 secs in one round you win. If its a draw the judges _may_ give the win to the superior fighter, but usualy gives extention rounds. Each round starts fresh with a blanc record.
If noone wins after all allowed extention rounds it gets a little complicated. the winner may be chosen by earlier brick breaking (done in between some rounds to qualify to advace) or by the scales (if there is a 10 kg weight difference or more the lighter fighter wins).

In kyokushin no grabbs, grappling or throws are allowed, but some splinter styles allows it to different extent.
In the past there was also grappling from judo (the founder was a friend and sparring partner to Kimura) and jujutsu. But that is almost all gone from training (and totaly gone from competition) in kyokushin today.

Knockdown karate fighting are brutal and inellegant affairs where the opponents snipes at long distances and later sluggs it out in close distance, hopefuly without receiving too much damage to advance in the tournament.
The "no punches or elbows to the head" rule usualy makes it end up in a close distant fight where the fighters refuse to give ground (to avoid looking being pressed backward by a "superior" fighter and possibly loose in a draw).
To outsiders who dont know the game, it tends to look like a primitive slugfest. but its not -there is plenty of tactic and technique involved.
Foot work is usualy very good when the fighters not are stuck in close combat punch-lowkick trading.

Martin H,

I hate that picture!!

Why? Its not a good picture of Andy, but its a good kick by Filho.

Anyway, here are a few others:

It is indeed a great photo... Still I don’t like it! Yes, it was a great kick by Filho.

They all look like great kicks to me!

Who is regarded as currently the #1 Kyokushin player at the moment. Is it someone from the Kyokushin circuit or the K-1 arena?

Neil Holden,

Are we talking IKO1 or IKO2 Kyokushin organization?

In IKO1 I will say that Glaube, Ewerton Teixeira and Lechi Kurbanov are the # 1 players at the moment.

In IKO2 the # 1 players are Kunihiro Suzuki, Daniel Torok, Valeri Dimitrov and Takayuki Tsukakoshi.

I forgot Donatas Imbras from IKO2, I personal think that he will be the next World Champion in his organization.

* full contact karate;

i remember the claims of mass oyama that their style is the real full contact karate,not the one applied in the usa (fc, later americanboxing) ...he was right of course since the appereance of fights, number of contact technics,less protection gear seemed much more full contact than the us brand one ...

*seidokaikan,ashihara etc they seem exactly the same as kyokushin...frankly,i cannot see any difference as some of my friends (ashihara, kyokushin of course )say thatthere is difference ...they use the same technics when they go into fight ...


*much, MUCH less the thai .....

at this point i disagree since %90 of the fight technics are similiar to muay thai (even (if i amnot mistaken) the so-called seikens (punches) are also very similiar to the thai technics and are very far from shotokan and goju-ryu(combined styles)...)

*frankly,i cannot see any difference as some of my friends (ashihara, kyokushin of course )say that there is difference ...they use the same technics when they go into fight ...

-
The difference between ashihara, seidokaikan and kyokushin (and other kyokushin derivatives) are usualy very minor details in techniques -easy to miss in cometitions. Sometime the difference seems to be more in the order in which they are learned than in the actual execution.
The real difference is usualy in the kata.
In fighting they/we are all almost identical.

Sometimes the only differences are from politics and rivalries.

-
*at this point i disagree since %90 of the fight technics are similiar to muay thai (even (if i amnot mistaken) the so-called seikens (punches) are also very similiar to the thai technics and are very far from shotokan and goju-ryu(combined styles)...)

-
Well, having trained kyokushin for almost 2 decades and shotokan for several years, I have to dissagree. The techniques looks very different when adapted to competition, but that is more because of the difference between WKF type point karate and knockdown karate rules (with resulting differences in distancs, tactics and so on), than because of differences in the formal techniques.
Kyokushin guys fighting in WKF type events (=no/light contact break after each hit, no lowkicks etc) does not look all that different from shotokan guys.

Martin H writes:

..."The difference between ashihara, seidokaikan and kyokushin (and other kyokushin derivatives) are usualy very minor details in techniques -easy to miss in cometitions. Sometime the difference seems to be more in the order in which they are learned than in the actual execution.
The real difference is usualy in the kata.
In fighting they/we are all almost identical.

Sometimes the only differences are from politics and rivalries..."




The biggest different between Kyokushin and any other karate style, is in the spirit and the discipline!

The katas and the techniques are often very alike, but the spirit and the strengths in Kyokushin karate are second to none. It shows of in fighting tournaments, where Kyokushin, Seido and Ashihara fighters take part. So I will say that they are far from identical. Under full knock down rules, Kyokushin fighters always win.

Correct me if i am wrong, but isn't the main difference from Kyokushin and Ashihara that Ashihara uses alot more of the Sabaki type methods in training and tournament fighting, Ashihara left Kyokushin and took Joko Ninomiya with him who in turn left there to form Enshin, which is very Sabaki focused.

Just a thought?

Cheers

just curious to what is the record of the newer Kyokushin styles (Ashihara, Enshin etc) is versus the Kyokushin in KNoeckdown rules?

Have they had any all Japans etc?

T

@ the picture Oliver hates

That match with Filho was a sore moment for Andy Hug not in respect of the loss but of what was a liminal break of the rules. According to my info, the refferee had actually ordered a stop, Andy listened to the command whilst Filho's kick was already flying. Andy's mistake : he was too fairplay. The contact sports refs usually remind to the fighters "to protect themselves all the time whilst in range of opponent" - this, taking into account that such controversial things can happen as a fighter to be hit after the "stop" command. Filho's mistake was obvious but somehow understandable under the fight pressure. The officials ruled it a legitimate KO. That was THE real mistake. Even after this Filho was the tough stone Andy could not break - he defeated him also in K-1 with his famous and weird rear hook, that time it was legit. But ok, as for an Andy Hug fan, the memory of the fight with Filho in Kyokushin is sore.

unicorn :

That is one of the main reasons why I dont like the picture.

You are right, the referee had just ordered the fight to stop, because the round was over - when Filho kick Andy in the face and knock him out. It was a real ugly KO; Andy was carried away from the ring on strecther.

Andy was 1 secound away from winning the fight, and properly also the 5th World Open tournamnet in Kyokushin, when he got hit by an eleagle technique. That was Andy last fight as a Kyokushin fighter.

Andy Hug achieved a great many things, and that is what will always remembered!

His winning kick against Bernado in the K-1 96 World GP final being one of many special moments for the Blue eyed Samurai!

Thanks to all for the very informative thread-and links!
I dodnt know Hug and Filho, et al started in Kyokushin.

I have learned a lot. One or two more questions:

1. since they fight bare knuckles are there less punches thrown? and are handwraps permitted?

2. How does the no punches to the face rule
affect the fighters stance, posture and tactics?

thanks

probably stupid questions...

Dan

shoshin: Yes sabaki is more important in ashihara and enshin than in kyokushin. in ashihara and enshin it is religion, in kyokushin it is just one method.


T: Enshin and ashihara has to my knowledge not had any all japan opens. Ashihara is not realy into competition in all that much in japan, and enshin is realy based more in the US with the founder.
Seidokaikan has held many all japan and their connection to K-1 is well known. Shidokan has held many all japan and does a lot of knockdown. I disagree a bit with oliver about kyokushin being better than the other knockdown karate styles -I think the reason kyokushin fighters often defeating other fighters in open competitions is that kyokushin as a larger style has a deeper talent pool. I dont think the spirit and dicipline realy differs between knockdown styles, even if it certanly differs from other, non-knockdown oriented, karate styles.


Oliver: beeing a well known andy fan I sort of suspected that that was the reason you didnt like it :-)


Dan:
There are many otheres. Peter Graham and Sam greco were kyokushin. Pettas is back in karate, but has gone independent. Semmy schildt were ashihara, but has now joined seidokaikan. Jadamba (K-1 Max) is kyokushin. there are a lot of kyokushin/knockdown karate fighters in k-1 and other kickboxing. Many of them are still into the art even if they compete in other rule systems nowdays.

1. there are a lot of punches thrown in knockdown competitions, but since they are not allowed to land on the head they tend to be used to wear a opponent down and press him backwards. For knockdown you rely on kicks (and the occational liver punch).
Hand wraps or other supports are not permitted unless there has been a injury to the hand during the competition, and never in the first round of a tournament.

2. mainly it causes the guard to be held lower and more to protect against kicks, esp in close distance (where high kicks are difficult). The guard is very often held more to protect the chest and ribs than to protect the head. It is the main reason many knockdown karate fighters in k-1 have a sloppy guard at times. When they are tired they regress into old habits.

http://www.kyokushinmail.com/clips/coupe_du_monde4.mpg
http://www.shinkyokushinspain.com/07_downloads/videos_mpg/2001cpto_europa04.mpg
http://www.shinkyokushinspain.com/07_downloads/videos_mpg/2001cpto_europa02.mpg
http://www.shinkyokushinspain.com/07_downloads/videos_mpg/2001cpto_europa01.mpg

Knockdown karate fighting are brutal and inellegant affairs where the opponents snipes at long distances and later sluggs it out in close distance, hopefuly without receiving too much damage to advance in the tournament.

To outsiders who dont know the game, it tends to look like a primitive slugfest. but its not -there is plenty of tactic and technique involved.
Foot work is usualy very good when the fighters not are stuck in close combat punch-lowkick trading.


===How long are the rounds, and how many are there?

since there is no break by the ref after contact, do they fight
uninterrupted until someone is down, and then a count begins?

also are there fights ever stopped without either a ko or time expiring? in other words are tkos ever awarded in Kyokushin?

dan

Dan asks: "How long are the rounds, and how many are there?

since there is no break by the ref after contact, do they fight
uninterrupted until someone is down, and then a count begins?

also are there fights ever stopped without either a ko or time expiring? in other words are tkos ever awarded in Kyokushin?"

The first round is 3 minutes. if no one wins it, a extra round is ordered, then another, then if noone still has a win they check how much the fighters weighs, and howmany boards they broke in that segment. if there is still no winner a final extention is ordered. So there is a maximum of 4 rounds.
Each extention is 3 or 2 minutes (slight differences depending on organisation).

As for fighting, it is technicaly uninterupted until someone goes down, although since there are no ropes it does get interupted when someone is forced out of the fightingarea (if you do it enough times you get a penalty for fleeing, and the other guy gets half a point -remember a full point is a win), also he fight is interrupted if the fighters get stuck in a clinch.

I dont think I have ever seen a fight ended in the middle of a round exept for when one has been downed once for more than 5 secs or twice for less than 5 secs. But a down is not neccecarily a KO. Any time a fighter is rendered incapable to fight by a technique it is concidered a down.

A special case is when a fighter sweeps or throws the opponent. if he follows it up with a good focused (but controlled -no full contact) finishing technique (usualy restricted to punches, but some organisations allows kicks too) to the fallen fighter he gets a half-point as if the guy had been knocked down for less than 5 sec. No follow-up =no score, and it gets no more attention than a slip.