On another thread the discussion came up as to if toughness can be learned or not.

Points of view included-you got it or you don't and it can be learned an developed.

I thought this a very good topic for athletes in any sport and certainly a combat sport.

Personally I believe toughness can be learned. I believe its a skill that can be developed. As opposed to a talent that is given.

I am reffering to mental, emotional and physical toughness. In my opinion they all reflect and effect each other.

There's a quote I can't quite remember along the lines of 'Fatigue makes cowards of us all'

My first look into toughness from a mental/educational point of view came from a very good book called "The New Toughness Training For Sports" -James E. Loehr

Though much of that I think is very accurate in one way of thinking and I think its a great book, I don't really focus on it too much. I have found through studying the body (including the mental/emotional) that many factors come into play with everything and I believe toughness is no exception.

I guess a deffinition of what toughness means should be in order as if different people think it means different things then of course there will be varying opinions.

"tough  /tʌf/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[tuhf] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation, adjective, -er, -est, adverb, noun, verb
–adjective
1. strong and durable; not easily broken or cut."

strong and durable I'd say is pretty accurate...

Could we agree that toughness means that even when the going gets tough one can still maintain focus and continue putting forth an effort?

Maybe the ability to do ones best regardless of circumstances??

The ability to maintain a positive state of mind and a belief that one can endure and continue no matter how tough it gets??

Be able to just keep going, no matter what external influences stand or seem to stand in the way??

Could we agree that is toughness or are there some other areas you think might need to be covered?

An exmaple I gave on toughness being learned was military training. Taking ordinary pimple faced kids and making them into killers etc

Point of interest-Loehr worked with many top athletes including Boom Boom Mancini...


I don't think anyone could say Manici was not tough!

(not proving anything, just saying the guy didn't just 'write a book')

Does toughness have anything to do with upbringing/childhood. Good or bad family situation/neighbourhood/financial circumstances/education maybe these influence one's toughness? If you look at it from a fighting point of view the so called tough boxers are all portrayed through the media as people who have come up through hard times. Has this given them their toughness? Or is this just something used to market them.

Loehr's markers of toughness have nothing to do with being cold or hard, insensitive or calloused..

His markers of toughness are


1.Emotional Flexibility-the ability to absorb unexpected emotional turns and remain supple, nondefensive, and balanced, able to summon a wide range of positive emotions (fun, joy, fighting spirit, humour) to the competative battle. Inflexibile athletes are rigid and defensive in emotional crisis and therefore are easiliy broken. Emotional inflexibility indicates a lack of toughness.

2. Emotional Responsivness-the ability to remain emotionally alive, engaged, and connected under pressure. Responsive competators are not calloused, withdrawn, or lifeless as the battle rages. Emotional unresponsiveness also reveals a lack of toughness.

3.Emotional Strength-the ability to exert and resist great force emotionally under pressure, to sustain a powerful fighting spirit against the odds. The Ianability to fight emotionally is nearly synonymous with a lack of toughness.

4.Emotional Resiliency-the ability to take a punch emotionally and bounce back quickly, to recouver quickly from disapointments, mistakes, and missed oppertunities and jump back into the battle fully ready to resume the fight. Slow emotional recovery indicates a lack of toughness.

"The New Toughness Training For Sports" James E. Loehr Ed. D

jjju.g.k.-IMO everything in ones life plays a factor in developing toughness...

Upbringing etc plays a big factor. Actually more accuratly would probbaly be ones interpretation/perspective on thier surroundings and enviroment but essentially yes. I believe it makes a big differance (supporting that thoughness is learned)

Too much stress will lead to weakness.
Too little stress leads to weakness.
Balance

If Mummy and Daddy gave you everything you ever asked for and you were born with a silver spoon you will likely not be 'tough'.

But someone who is terribly abused there whole life will likely not not be tough either (though they might act it).

Thats why, especially the more I learn about how the body and ego etc works, I believe that the foundation needs to be addressed if serious about getting tough.

If one doesn't deal with past issues then they will always effect ones mental/emotional (and physical IMO). To get tough is a mental/emotional thing.

In my experience and with fighters I have talked to I have heard stories of times when they weren't 'tough' and how they over came it and became 'tougher'. Also I have seen toughness deteriorate. I have experienced moments where I was not tough and I think have have become tougher since...

I don't see being emotionanless, cold and caloused and fighting like a robot as tough and I certainly don't see it lending to top performance for the individual.

Its the whole No Fear thing..

Not being afraid of something is NOT being tough. But doing something to the upper most end of ones abilities REGARDLESS of fear or circumstances. Now thats tough!!!

Stepping up tp the challange, engaging 100% with belief in yourself when you are down 4rnds and the guy has 200 more fights than you. Thats tough!!!

Taking a beating and keeping in there and fighting is tough-but keeping fighting with spirit and belief and to the best of your abilities is much tougher.

IMO

guess laughter is a form of toughness then. Common to see people laughing when training very hard. Trained with a guy from marine corp and he used to laugh so much he got me laughing and the hard work was a lot easier to take.

Dan Jansen is a story of toughness!! An Olympic skater.. His sister passes away the morning of the race... He fell in the 500 and the 1000 (1988)

He had mental troubles with the 1000.. "I didn't enjoy the race and almost came to fear it, and expected to tire in the last 400meters"

Started working with Loehr and started to win it, love it and look forward to it.


1994 Olympics-put to the test

He slipped in the 500!

4 days later in the 1000... he won and set a record!!!! Thats toughness!!

Getting up and keeping fighting. Believing in yourself no matter what the sets backs. No matter how big the challenge or the stress or the fear-doing your best anyhow!!!!

In my opinion and experience and as I see it so far... thats toughness!

I think laughter comes from different places. I know it can come in place of crying (I have often laughed when getting Rolphed! lol)

I think it can be a cover for fear at times.

But I also think it can be a sign loving the challenge and not being so tunes out emotionally that one can acvtually notice something funny when it happens. (I believe positive emotions lend to performance)

Heres an example of actually seeing humour in a fight.

It was against me vs Steele.. I went to kick left and he chopped my base leg out and I mostly fell. I knew!!! (maybe I was just licky) that if I kicked left he'd do it again. So I made it look like I'd kick left and then changed it intro a teep. Worked like a charme, he thought I was kicking and went to chop me down... Probalem for me was I missed the teep! lol I got up laughing..

Now I am not saying 'I am tough' but in that circumstance I was. Acting angry or pissed or mad at myself for screwing up, or getting dejected cause he got me etc etc etc is NOT tough.

I partly learned some of this with being around some top 9-ball players.
I was taught-very specifically not to show ANYTHING negative (or positive really). At the same time I watch Thai fights and they never looked, hurt, angry, upset etc etc neutral most of the time but sometimes a smile etc. They certainly didn't have this I am trying to kill you and I am pissed off look.

Just like I believe performance and fittness should come from a base of health.

I believe mental/emotional for sports and performance should come from a base of mental/emotional health.

I believe that means looking at our weaknesses, our fears, our excuses, our insecurities etc etc etc and attacking them and working on them (like Jornden working on his weaknesses after not making a school basketball team).

If in life your are emotionally weak I believe that when really pushed emotionally (mentally etc) in sport one falls apart.

What seperates the cream from the milk is not that much... Just being able to do thier best consistantly! Thats toughness IMO

No matter if the wife just chewed you out. No matter if you just got fired. No matter if you have a little cold. no matter what you step up and do it just like everything worked out perfectly.

Much easier said than done :)

The brain doesn't know the differance between something that happend or somethig imagined. Its all held in there as memories in the brain (just a bunch of connections and elecrical stuff with some chemicals etc-its not 'real'

We all know (I think) the effects words can have on people, lets say kids growing up.

If all that is true then ones thinking take on a whole new dimension in creating our emotional/mental responses to situations etc

I also believe we can 'rewire' our brains in a very real way as well!!

We associate certain things with others... Say love with pain (from a break up for example, or loosing a parent).

In all aspects of life and sport we have these connections and assiciations.

We can change associations, we can litterally change our thoughts and responses to different life, or sporting events IMO

Working out things from growing up that develop us (more accuratly imo would be working out our perception of things from growing up) can have an effect on how we see and view and react to things etc

Of course this doesn't support toughness is learned. This is talking IF it is learned how it can be changed from what we may have learned through our experiences growing up.

Mark mate, you`ve got to learn how to summarise! Bet your English teachers loved marking your 1000 page essays!

I think everyone has an element of toughness in them and it is actually a human trait, it`s just that it comes to the fore easier in others, and many wont have been in a situation where they have had to test it.

think we can break toughness down into physical toughness and mental toughness I think both are vastly different

phil :) cool cool... i thinnk we develop a certain level and I htink it can be added to.

jjju.g.k.-I think physical toughness and mental toughness and emotional toughness can all be seperated and I think they can all be worked on from the same point of view.. (stress/recovery=growth)

Yet I think they all effect each other..

Much easier to be 'tough' with a full tank of gas than when you're totally spent. IMO

Also I believe our thoughts, for example, effect our emotions.

A fake smile brings on chemical changes in the body just as a real one does. The great actors don't fake emotions, they bring on real emotions and acting and thinking a certain way.

So mental toughness will strongly effect emotional toughness IMO

They all effect all.

stress anyone of them, with enough time to recover and it will lead to growth or strengthening IMO

But you need the waves. The up and down. The balance. the yin/yang.

You strengthen in recovery after stress. Not in stress! Thats just a fact (IMO lol)

LOL at phil. I tend to skip posts if they're to long. Interesting topic though. Do you think physical toughness can be obtained due to ethnicity as well? i.e some races having harder jaws and punches than others. You may have already answered this.

Certainly there are variables between individuals on the ability of thier body to absorb a blow befores... breaking a rib, getting KO'd...

However the system can be toughened for sure... The stronger the flexor chain the less head snap and the less likely of a KO..

There was an article only yesterday about a new gene just discovered that relates to pain.
Apparently 1 on 4 people is more susceptible to pain than others...
(sorry for not linking but its in italian, you might find something similar)

Anyway, i think its a bit of both, some toughness comes from your DNA, some is learned at a very young age, in a small percentage it can also re-discovered later in life.

But to keep going when shattered: i believe can only be learned/discovered, and it it's very closely related to how much you really want something.

tough=want

It has been medically confirmed Ginger haired people have a lesser pain threshold than other colour haired people as they are missing some sort of gene, which may be related to the above. The medical profession say they are the worst to operate on due to this.

no wayyyyy!!! man that's wicked, now it explains a lot of things.... you see there was this red haired girl i was with....ok i digress!

many factors to pain.. mental and emotional have very real effects on the physical...

"The strength of the pain signal, for example, can depend on what other sensory information is funneled to the spine at the same time."


He goes on to talk about 3 senarios..

soldier in a battle, wounded-not life threatening, death and carnage all around BUT gets to go home.
advanced stages of liver cancer-ghiven an experimantal drug
and enthusiastically having sex on a rough carpet..

In all cases the pain will not seem that painful..

"The brain's interpretation of pain can be extreamly subjective"

He goes on to talk about a study conducted in the 1980's.. Scientists look over records from a decades worth of of records of patients who had gallbladder surgery.
Turns out the patients who had a room with a view of tress outside thier wondows 'requested significantly less pain medication than thjose who looked out on blank walls'

"This is because the brain is not a mindless pain-ometer, simply measuring units of ouchness." I love how he writes! lol

"First, the emotional/interpretative level can be dissociated from the objective amount of pain signal that is coursing up to the brain from the spine. In other words, how much pain you feel, and how unpleasent that pain feels, can be two seperate things."


One more study (though he goes on)

groups dipping hands into hot water with brain imaging...

One group had the hypnotic suggestion that they feel no pain.

"The sensation-processing part of the cortex (kind of pain-ometer in this case) was activated to the identical extent in both cases reflecting the similar number of heat sensitive receptors being triggered to roughly the equivalent extent in both cases. But the emotionl parts of the brain activated only in the pre-hypnosis case. The pain was the same in both cases, the response to it was not."

not only that put emotion can alter not just the response but also "can alter how the spinal cord responds to painful information."


Just a couple examples..

Physical toughness in the real sense of fighting is not just physical. Just like with everythig else the body cvannot be compartmentalized like a machine.

genetics will play a factor but there is too much that shows how many variables there are IMO

Again-explain turning pimply kids into killers... Its genetics??

Genetics plays big roles but how we express them and how they are influenced hads big effects too. Which means no matter what our genes say they can be expressed to a much greater or lessor extent. HUGELY IMO

However if you believe you are a victom of chance and genetics with no say of your own...that will be true for you. IMO

ooops missed the source :)

"Why Zebras Deon't Get Ulcers"
Robert M. Sapolsky (prof of biology and neurology at Standford and a research associate with The Institute of Primate Reasearch, National Museum of Kenya (recipient of a MavArther Foundation "genius" grant.

very cool book

How you think, what you think, what your emotions are conditioned to do, how you percieve the event etc etc... Those are all modifiable factors, no?

How big of a part do you think adrenaline plays because ordinary people with no training of emotions, mind, body ect have been known to do some pretty crazy (and painful) things when adrenaline kicks in.

Check out round 2 of this fight. It is hardness at its finest. I would love to see a top sports scientist try and explain how this is physically humanly possible.

Check out round 2 of this fight. It is hardness at its finest. I would love to see a top sports scientist try and explain how this is physically humanly possible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bNb-a1CZUU

Hot Sizzle-Rnd 2 of that fight is one of my all time fav rnds in MuayThai.

Outside the ring Jongsanan is so nice and layed back too!!! (balance)

Personally I think a display like that shows what training can do. Am I saying they don't have some in them naturally? No. But do you imagine that they could do that on thier first fight? Not a chance... So that means it developed, no?

At least thats how I see it.

(actually I know of some cases where he was nice in the ring!!)

Yeah it is an awesome round indeed. One of my favs too. I agree that they got like that with training but i think that would have most scientists baffled on how they can take so much punishment and not be knocked out.

I think that round was fought on heart and had a sense of stubborness about it. Sak is a master kicker and didn't kick much at all in the round letalone the fight.

I think a huge part is mental..

If you watch Thais fight and get dropped (or almost like Jongsanan in that one) there is a very different look to it in general to that of westeners in general...

I think its ingrained from being around fighting so much (obviously coupled with training and thier inate toughness). Thats what they know. You just fight and you keep fighting. You don't take an 8, you get up and go, Period.

If you watched 100 Thai getting dropped or KO'd I believe it looks different on a whole than 100 westeners getting dropped or KO'd (even at the same weight).

Its a thought process and a belief system ingrained (read learned) IMO

They are almost always out cold or back up (even if they can't stand straight).

Hugely mental and I think that fight, including Jongsanan getting rocked but not going down in the beggining of the second.

Thats largely opinion...

But again, to me, thats evidance of learned toughness.

Granted the guys that aren't that tough don't keep fighting :)

But even those two could not have done that, IMO, at the beggining of thier carriers. There for to a large degree it was learned IMO

Though I think what I have said is true I was just introduced to something that also plays a factor. As of yet I know very little about but can see how it would make a differance.

Memetics-I think it would come into play BIG time in ones toughness...

Memetics?? care to explain Mark?

Not really. :) Basically I am very new to it and know very little... Personally

But I can see how it could greatly effect toughness and infact EVERY aspect of existance.

I think largely how meme (ryhmes with dream) determines belief and thought and that will greatly effect ones ability to step out of the fearful survival mode in fighting and to perform like great athletes do who are not 'fighting for thier lives'.

Fear (and all the ways we deal with it) helps people fight as opposed to run or be paralized by it.

But I think getting past the stage of survival in the ring opens the doors to greater performance.

I think thier are many levels but survival would be the lowest.

-without getting into detail or explinations I guess meme would make up the subconscious mind and therefor feed the conscious mind its thoughts, beliefs etc

I think meme makes up the mind in a similar way that genes make up the body (not exactly litteral).

Its still a new enough paradigm that most will simply reject because it doesn't fit into the glass they have that is already full with what they know.

So if you're interested check it out for yourself. :)