http://www.amazon.com/Muay-Thai-Katas-Modern-Approach/dp/B003O68AAO


Hmmmm...

Muay Chaiya have set forms in their training syllabus however I can see the confusion.

Firstly let us understand that 'Muay Thai' is the sport.

'Muay' simply means to box 'Thai' means free.

Therefore;
Muay Boran is ancient style boxing
Muay Kaad cherk is bound fist style boxing
Muay Chaiya is the chaiya style of boxing

These are traditional and battlefield styles, 'Martial arts' if you like.

However Muay Thai was developed as a sport so forms do not exist within it's training.

The term 'Muay Thai Katas' therefore is a bastardisation of the Thai 'Muay Thai' and Japanese 'Kata' and looking at the photograph the lady depicted is wearing a grading belt which does not exist in the sport of Muay Thai.

It's a bit like saying 'Boxing Katas' for the sport of boxing.

It would be interesting to see if 'Master Tran' has developed his own 'Katas' or if he is using the traditional Sawk, Kaow, Teh and Shok forms of Muay Boran.

Made me chuckle though and I am looking forward to his follow up DVD 'How to perform the knee kick in K1 karate kick boxing style of Muay Thai' lol ;-)x

Lol - I thought that with AX being so damn serious at the moment - a more lighter subject maybe nice for a change.

Plus... Some people may have interesting input on the subject of forms, Muay-Boran etc...

Glad to bring a chuckle and a smile

;)

Here's something I wrote for Combat several years ago:


IS YOUR ART MARTIAL?

By Kru Shaun Boland.

Half a league, half a league,
Half a league onward,
All in the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred
Charge of the light Brigade
Lord Tennyson 1870

If you were to write comprehensively about every martial art in the world you would seriously be competing with the Encyclopaedia Britannica!
There are literally hundreds of different styles, methods or systems in the world today. With new systems branching out even as I write this, I am curious to know how we classify what a ‘Martial’ art is.

What I am about to write is definitely open for debate as I know some of you may not agree with me. That is okay, because we all have the freedom to express our opinion and I simply want to generate some thought on this issue, not dictate any classification (in fact that is what this is all about if you ‘get it’ at the end of the article!). All I ask is that you keep an open mind and don’t fuss too much!

Let us start with the dictionaries classification for the word ‘Martial’:
mar•tial (mär sh l)
adj.
1. Of, relating to, or suggestive of war.
2. Relating to or connected with the armed forces or the profession of arms.
3. Characteristic of or befitting a warrior.
So you could say ‘Martial arts’ are; the study of preparatory methods for use in armed and unarmed combat during war.
However, I do not think it is that simple, as the martial arts were not originally developed for the defence of soldiers fighting on battlefields, or as sports. The combat that martial artists practice is free from the constraints of rules unless they are practiced as a sport. Martial arts have simply one objective: to neutralize an attack by any means as rapidly as possible. (I will repeat this a few times during the article!)
The sporting element may well have come from the need to maintain battle awareness and sharpness during times of peace, such as the Greek Olympic games, which was a religious festival during which war was suspended throughout the land.
On the battlefield, weapons were a lot heavier and the skills of war a lot cruder than martial arts. However, a requirement for skill and strategy was certainly needed to best your adversary.
So it is my opinion that the martial arts were adapted to warfare not developed for warfare as we may think.
The argument here of course is that weaponry was developed for warfare and as we know, many of our arts have training as such. However, for now, I am looking at the unarmed fighting arts - hand to hand combat. Something that has gone on since man first roamed the Earth. Tribal warfare probably occurred in prehistoric times and fighting would have included biting, gouging, hair pulling, pushing and striking etc. The more sophisticated techniques such as throwing, locking, defence and attack strategies that martial artists employ, are a totally different order of complexity altogether.
What I am about to say now may cause a reaction from one or two of you, but here goes nonetheless. The majority of our techniques in martial arts are of no use in a real combat situation. They simply would not work in either urban or military warfare. Now it’s up to you to decide what will work and what will not in your chosen arts. I am not prepared to analyze and write down every martial technique! But be brutally honest, put yourself hand to hand with someone who actually wants to kill you, are you really prepared? do you really have the training to deal with this? Isn’t this what ‘Martial’ arts are about – to neutralize an attack by any means as rapidly as possible.
This of course leads me into our sports ‘Martial arts’. As I stated earlier, probably developed to keep the soldiers ‘battle sharp’ in times of peace. Our sports, naturally, have rules, as with any sport. As a ‘Martial’ art however, rules become constraints, limits. Let us take a closer look - We can divide our ‘Martial sports’ into two basic categories: restricted-contact and full contact (This includes weapons too!). Within the restricted contact we have the semi-contact rules and the non-contact rules, some of the arts that employ these are:
• JUDO
• KARATE (Not including kyokushinkai & shidokan which both employ full contact techniques)
• AIKIDO
• TAEKWONDO
• TAI CHI
• SEMI-CONTACT FREESTYLE
Within full contact there are the following:
• MUAY THAI
• WESTERN BOXING
• SAN SHAO (Chinese boxing)
• VALE TUDO
• NHB (MMA)
There are many more which fit into either categories or even somewhere between. What I am asking here is, are they all ‘Martial’ arts? When we restrict our techniques to just throwing or only punching etc, we no longer have an effective fighting arsenal that can qualify in the pure sense, as ‘Martial’. Let’s look away from the sporting aspect for the moment and look at few other martial arts. I will categorize them so that we can discuss these further:
1. MODERN
2. TRADITIONAL
3. FITNESS
1. MODERN
• JEET KUNE DO
• KRAV MAGA
• KEYSI
2. TRADITIONAL
• MUAY BORAN (KRABI-KRABONG)
• BUSHIDO
• IAIDO
• KALARIPAYIT
• SILAT
• ESCRIMA
3. FITNESS
• TAE BO
• BOXERCISE
• AEROBOX
• BODY COMBAT
• KARATEROBICS
Are these ‘Martial’ arts? I know you are looking at the last section and saying no way! So let’s look at each one individually. In the modern martial arts we have systems that are designed for urban warfare and in the case of Krav Maga, specifically developed for the Israeli defence forces. In the traditional section I have included arts that employ the use of weapons in addition to empty hand (at last! I hear you sigh). These traditional methods were all employed in battle during their countries respective histories. So by all accounts modern and traditional arts are ‘Martial’. Now let’s look at the fitness section, but before I do, consider this: The Shaolin Temple is where many martial arts believe their roots to lie. It is here, legend has it, that the Indian Zen Buddhist monk, Bodhidharma, upon seeing his pupils falling asleep during meditation, formulated an exercise routine based upon the movements of 5 different animals. This was later adapted to fighting styles, which are still in existence today.
Modern day martial fitness routines are purely for aerobic exercise throwing in some strength exercises and a few techniques you may say. However, most of these, if not all, were designed by ‘martial’ artist and they involve choreography not to dissimilar to Kata or Hyungs. Perhaps these exercise routines are the forerunners of our own modern Shaolin community halls and sports centers!

So let’s go back to our original meaning of martial arts - to neutralize an attack by any means as rapidly as possible. Does the fitness section fit into this category? Do sport Martial arts fit into this category? Be careful how you answer, bear in mind my comments earlier about rules and constraints!
Getting back to the original question, does your martial art stack up if you were faced with an opponent who wants to kill you, no rules, no constraints, no dance beat? –
MARTIAL ARTS – PREPARATION FOR COMBAT?
OR JUST A GENERIC TERM?

I remember reading your article, it is very well written.

There are Martial arts and there are Combat-Sports.

For me Martial Arts should focus on self-defence, with realistic methods in many instances focusing on techniques not allowed within the rule-set of a game ( even if the game is a very tough one ).

Muay-Boran = Martial Arts, and includes strikes using your head as a weapon as well as striking a downed opponent.

Muaythai = Combat sport, performed within a ruleset.

Many combat-sports have techniques that are highly applicable to self-defence situations, therefore you have a grey area due to cross-over. I know of several Muaythai instructors that advertise/teach self-defence and specialise in this area with their skill-set.

M.M.A. as a Combat-sport being one that immediately comes to mind as it covers grappling range as well as striking.

However, when headbutts and biting come into play - the last thing anyone would want to do is grapple or clinch someone.

Interesting subject.

Three other points with ground work:

If you take someone to the ground you are in danger of their 'friends' striking you.

If you fall to the ground with them you may injure yourself if it is concrete or a hard surface

If you arm lock or choke do you follow through? to do so may break the law, therefore do you then ask them to submit and then release them? Only for them to re-set their game plan and re-engage.

Ground work knowledge is necessary if you are the one being bought to the ground though

This is the Muay Chaiya style. The backdrop is the ancient city of Ayuthaya. You get a bit of a taste of this style and Muay Boran in the Ong Bak films

I was taught that MUAY CHAIYA is a southern style of Muay-Boran that specializes in Elbows and Knees.

The dynamic kicking seen between the "5" minutes mark and the "7" minutes mark, ( please watch ), remind me more of the northen style, often refered to as "LING-LOM" by the Thai Masters that originally taught the Thai martial arts in the U.K.

You certainly saw this type of dynamic kicking on many demonstrations at the time!

Yeah its not Muay Chaiya,its a hybrid Muay Boran Form,quiet recent I belive:)

Didn't watch it all only the first minute it could well be Ling Lom, it's not new though unless you mean in the last 10 years Paul?

Yeah Sean I meant within the last 10-15 years,especially when you think how long the established Muay styles have been going its new,Jakarob knows his stuff though:)

I've studied Muay Chaiya in Thailand quite a bit and have never seen any 'katas'. Only the usual mae mai and luke mai techniques.

The style in the above clips is known as Muay Chaiyuth which isn't the same as Muay Chaiya.

In my opinion there are no traditional solo forms in any form of Muay Thai, ancient or modern. Only two person forms, mae mai and luke mai or in Muay Chaiya only luke mai. The majority of these techniques are as relevant for the modern boxing ring as they are for the battlefield.

You got it BKK Gym,so many good tricks in Muay Thai its a shame we dont see them more:)

you do see the odd trick occasionally, seanchai comes out with some crazy stuff & pulls it off! Gaolan at jitti's is an amazing at Muay Boran, he pulls off some ridiculous stuff in sparring too! when its done well at a high level it works in thai boxing too. i think some people do some of the tricks without realising it too!!
it all crosses over though, the amount of times i have seen thai boxers doing hubad (from Kali) when they are in the clinch is unrea, only they know it as a part of clinch. same with trapping (from jkd) its used in clinch over & over again, but again in thai boxing terms its just clinch!

neil neil neil lol Thai Kata lol for some reason you lost your Thai with a watered down japanese flavour ( BUT its your choice, your flavour, and in fairness its worked for you so dredit there)
next you will Invent KICK-K1muay lol
and kneeBOX

lol

sometimes you make me smile as you forget / forgotten your Roots at Bolton Thai Boxing Club
under myself and G master Sken and phil Nurse
the most training you did was in Muay thai
@ BTBC

remember this ?piccy in my gym Vernon st: was this where you started?

front row left stood up myself far right robz sharpley ( my first 5 years of Btbc 1894-1989 partners in the gym )
prior to that i started a class at Silverwell St: Bolton Sports Centre in the Combat room 1983 -1984
Where Darren Phillips ( back row 4th: along ) and steve reilly 6th: along back row ) and Phillip Nurse back middle ) all came to train with Me at at the above and then the Re-located Gyn in the Bolton Town centre where they and you trained also
this BTBC gym was opened in 1989 and still open now !!!
a few fighters ive trained and champions ( Johnny taylor here )

All these relating to photo above this 1 above -
front row left stood up myself far right robz sharpley ( my first 5 years of Btbc 1894-1989 partners in the gym )
prior to that i started a class at Silverwell St: Bolton Sports Centre in the Combat room 1983 -1984
Where Darren Phillips ( back row 4th: along ) and steve reilly 6th: along back row ) and Phillip Nurse back middle ) all came to train with Me at at the above and then the Re-located Gyn in the Bolton Town centre where they and you trained also
this BTBC gym was opened in 1989 and still open now !!!

Neil @ Bolton TBC

sorry neil i went off on 1 there lol and spell Credit where its due !



and It was the japanese word used Kata which isnt Thai in any way and heres some more check this

Marianne,

I see what your saying but compared to the tricks that are in the art of Muay Thai a very very small percentage are used in the modern rings,and why the hell Saenchai picked the handstand kick Ill never know when he could of used so many more beautiful and effective tricks.

Sandy, Kata(Ghata) are mantras in Thailand:)

haha - Paul Pearson drops knowledge bombs on everyone again.Is there anything you don't know about MT?!!

The post is the taken from the name of a DVD that is being marketed, it is not myself stating that Muaythai has Kata's.

Maybe someone on AX has watched it, and can share some feed back?

This thread has lead onto a youtube clip of someone demonstrating / selling Muay-Boran forms ( kata's ). Maybe someone on AX has come across this, or even practises this as a form of exercise like tai-chi, yoga, pilates ie keeping fit and practising self-defence without impact wear and tear on their bodies.

Personally, I am a big fan of Muay-Boran, due to Grand Master Sken often refered to Ling-Lom in his teachings, especially as Muay-Boran is pretty applicable to self-defence.

The thread was leading onto an intersting subject of Muay-Boran and maybe Muay-Boran forms, Mae mai and Luke mai techniques.

Hopefully BKK Gym, Mariane and Paul Pearson can share some more of their knowledge and views on the subject, or maybe someone else will jump on board.

Grand Master Wood is heavily involved with Muay-Boran and has trained a lot of people in the U.K. over the years. Maybe the will add some input.

Muay-Boran = very cool!

Second technique on the above clip....Cart-Wheel Kick!

err thats hideous

The cart wheel kick that Seanchai does is called 'mah tid graloh' in Thai. It translates as horse kick skull.

i completely agree Paul, and a lot of it would work in the ring too!

@ Neil Holden,
We all know you're playing devil's advocate on this topic.

The orginial DVD cover on Muay Thai Kata is simply a marketing strategy for struggling gyms.

I'm current training out of an MMA gym in Muay Chaiya under a former student of GM Mud & GM Lek. In MMA gym's BJJ (Brazilian Jiu JItsu) is the MOST popular, Karate is second, I think the reason is two fold. One BJJ is one of the easiest Martial Arts to learn for overweight people, since it starts off on the knees and spends most of the time on the back and two it offers a unified grading.
To cut a long story short. There is a movement within many MMA gyms to make Muay Thai "easier" if possible. It just marketing and has nothing to do with the actual Muay Thai. Neil, you should know about marketing since you're a Proffessional Instructor.

No one is playing DA. In fact you could not be farther from the truth with your - rather personal - statement.

Some people post on AX just to cause trouble - and no other reason ( ax seems rife with this at the moment ). Is that what your post is???

Others post threads to either share information like events or results, or post threads that they think may lead onto interesting discussions.

In this instance... There is a DVD being marketeted by a company called "Muay Thai Kata's". People involved in the martial arts industry, especially professional instructors, may have a few thoughts to share on this.

Further to this, obviously this is not an isolated project by one individual group - hence the follow up posts showing the YOUTUBE clips of .... Muay-Boran 'forms'.

Knowledgable and respected people have posted comments on Muay-Boran forms. You may note - none being inflammatory or showing any disrespect by these respect people.

You seem to have posted several times now, following comments by myself on particular threads - which makes me think that you are no better than the many trolls or haters that seem to be trying to stir things up on this forum at the minute - just for the sake of it!!!

Hopefully, there will be more posts on the subject of Muaythai Kata's and / or Muay-Boran forms for those with a genuine interest.

Matthew theres plenty I dont know!.

Marianne I agree and Id love to see someone pull of more Mae and Luk Mai:)

Neil I love Muay Boran styles to especially Muay Lopburi:)

Hey Paul,

I always said that you were a jedi-master!

There is nothing much with regards to the martial arts that you do not have knowledge on!


And.....I bet you have still not watched those movies ;)

Lol thanks Neil,hope you and family are well:)

@ Neil Holden,

Not sure why you're getting shirty, but the DVD is a pure marketing strategy. I was trying to stay away from the term McDojo, since I'm sure the intentions are good/ well. I think instructors should find ways to balance both the structure/ martial art side and the progressive/ sport side.

cheers paul and all
and ghata ?/ or Mantra
humm maybe
yes

But KATA NOOOOOOO

its a japanese word
and theres no correlation to the term Muay thai and kata
just the same as the 2 /3 styles of Fighting from the martial art forms from Thailand or Japan

Japanese invented Kick-boxing and K-1
and it is and always will be a watered down / easier to do martial art sport as Muay-Thai / boran chaiya etc: is and was too brutal and could not be beaten, only on the rare occasion


back opn the Muay thai n/ muay boran
how good is that demo @ Lumpini every week those 2 guys do between fights !
Awesome spectacal to witness !

@ Sandy Holt,

I think Neil does Japanese Boxing which use Kata. I'd heard he mixed sport Karate with Muay Thai and came up with the best form of Kickboxing. Wolf of Warrington style.
Didn't Neil used to train in Tea Pot kicking as well? TEA pot kicking is very useful when leaving the chippy on a Friday night when some hoodies/ townies try to jump you for your chips.

As far as Muay Chaiya/ Muay Boran demos. I got some good one's coming out of the Combat Club with Kru Yai Pol. She trained at the Muay Chaiya Conservation Center.



(Just jesting Neil. We still love you.)

@ Joe Toe - my previous post to you is merely backed up by the last one you jibed at me.

I am pretty pleased with the students Wolf-Gym produces. In recent times, 2010 we picked up two I.K.F. British Amateur Kickboxing Champions (K-1 format), and last year we picked up six I.K.F. British Amateur Kickboxing Champions (K-1 format).

We also have a decent prospect at the moment in Professional ‘K-1’ style Kickboxing rules, who came through the very same Amateur code.

Currently on a roll while representing her country, with three straight International wins, and her next International bout pending.

So, your ‘DIS’ is pretty weak TBH!

Still if this sort of thing gives you satisfaction, then it is your problem.

I have had an interesting email by someone who is following this thread.

They said that they actually train Muaythai type forms, as they are now in their fifties.

To keep active they have switched from roadwork to swimming, and from weight training to pilates and yoga. As they still have a passion for martial arts, this keeps them training, but without any impact work. At the end of the day, shadow boxing burns calories, likewise shadow boxing to preset combinations!

They were going to register and post, but emailed me instead as they did not want to deal with trolls having a go ( what on ax?? ).

Here are some elbow and knee drills!

Neil,
I wish Muay Thai was more like other Martial Arts as far as structure, grading, etc. Unfortunetly it's a mess when it comes to that or getting others on board. Muay Thai even suffers from confusion when it comes to the Ring and how it should be scored, the size of the ring, techniques to be used, etc.

I wasn't "dissin" you or your gym. I'm quite proud of what you've done. I was however "busting your balls" and so for that I appologize.

You're a Professional Martial Arts instructor and in that case you should always be finding new ways to bring in customers to pay the light bill, etc. The owner of the gym I'm at right now is thinking about scrapping the Muay Thai class and just replacing it with Muay Chaiya. There is more interest in Muay Boran then there is in Muay Thai, largely due to the MMA craze going on and movies like Ong Bak.

As far as the Muay Thai Kata, I think what Mr Tran did was simply use a more commonly coined word to describe a structured way of teaching Muay Thai.

My current teacher, Kru Pol performing Yang Sam Khun during the intermission of an MMA event. Plus, Harrison on the left.