What do you think of ICO titles?

As good or as bad as any others depending on who is fighting for them...

^^ Spot credible reply. Fighters make titles credible, not the other way round.

Interesting approach.
So all other things being equal an ICO title is equally desirable as a WBC title?

Looking at their rankings/titles they are all pretty empty. I believe full up to date rankings and good diversity in title holders is a good indicator of an orgs "credability", as well as the geographic spread of thier shows. Also the fighters wanting to fight for their titles is a good indicator.

WBC have went down hill recently. Non ranked fighters fighting for titles etc. I mean Riddick Bowe got a title shot with no Muay Thai experience and Marlon Hunt with very little. Both champions in their own sports but surely need to prove themselves in that discipline.

The ICO is still a relatively new organisation who have mainly been focused on the kickboxing scene more than anything else, although they are used far and wide across the world now, especially on the K1 scene. France, Italy, and as far as Madagascar. There is some great uk fighters who hold ICO titles from European up to World, myself, Ruth Ashdown, Paulo Da Silva been just a few. I am actually working alongside Andy Hennessy now to try and promote the Muay Thai side of the ICO a lot more and have fighters competing regular to build up an accurate rankings.

I've been very well looked after by Andy and the ICO personally, won my world title in France, then was asked to select a team to take to compete in Madagascar and took too up and coming guys at the time to give then a good opportunity, Mikey Clarke won 2rnd low kicks breaking opponents leg, a young Josh Turbull won against a European Champion and Kris Addis getting a draw against WAKO pro world and WMC European champion. Was an amazing week.
I've a few shows lined up for this year that I'm sanctioning with them and hopefully can pull off some great shows and showcase the up and coming talent.

Dean: You could say similar during K-1's early years with fighters from all styles fighting the leading champions. Although, your comment is not without merit.

Also, the saying "Fighters make the titles", i believe, is rubbish. There's a few promotions out there with 'show titles' on them, that proclaim to be 'British' 'European' 'International' championship titles, yet outside of the area/region, nobody's really heard of them. You could get two of the UK's most known & respected fighters fight each other for the Ring Commando Ninja World title, but what does that mean? Very little. Getting two well known fighters in is an achievement, yes, but daft titles are daft titles. To me, the only way you can get a title to mean something is by two ways - firstly, to have been around a long time and have representation in lots of countries around the world. Or secondly, have a TV contract and pay big purses.

As for the ICO, i know very little of them but they do seem to be sanctioning quite a few events in the UK and France, from what i've seen. But let's face it, the WKBF is very big in Australasia (or was), yet who's heard of their world champions? And didn't the WKBC have lots of events on at one time throughout France and Poland, with some noted champions (until the owner done a runner), but again, who acknowledges their titles?

So Dean Ford, is the answer 'yes' ?

I see ICO as a big up and coming organisation, but as Andy has already said, it is still in its early stages , but already has some big named title holders. Does that quite answer your question?

It is a simple yes or no question. It seems to me that you are saying no but trying to avoid doing so, possibly as you don't wish to offend the posters on here who essentially are the ICO.
I have no axe to grind one way or another, as I understand it the only shows that I know of dishing out ICO titles is one of the better shows in the UK.
I suppose I wondered why there hasn't been the usual complaints about made up titles etc that there usually is when a new org pops up.

It seems I've heard that song before!!! Lol

Let them all be world champion of what ever, proof is in the pudding when the champions meet

But there's too many shows with too many local stars that the village promoter needs to feather their nest!

So I wreckon got room for another 20 orgs

First rule of business supply = demand lol

If the IFW (international fucking whatever) are doing it right and not cutting corners what harm are they doing

But "it seems I've heard that song before"! Lol

It just devalues the meaning of a 'British' 'European' 'World' title if you have loads. As we all know.

I would like to hear a statement from the owners of these new bodies as to 'why' they decided to setup

I don't think anyone "has" to explain their business on here guys; ICO is doing a great job and minding its own business - Simple. The more exposure for Martial Arts the better...would you question why GLORY is set up??

Sorry Lee. Not been here for a week.
To answer your question:

'Interesting approach.
So all other things being equal an ICO title is equally desirable as a WBC title?'

I suppose the answer is yes (said without any real conviction either way).

In the ideal world, of course a brand such as WBC would command more desire and more respect than any of the others. But they are not delivering the consistency required for their elite standing, so they are no better or worse than any other org trying to navigate their way through the mess.
I'm sure the intentions are good, and I realize that you can't aways get what you want in terms of match ups, so you are left with the answer I gave.

Agreed, nobody 'has to' explain their business, of course not. It's just interesting to know what they feel is missing in the sport that they can provide as a governing/sanctioning body, that the others aren't ... I think Glory/K-1, etc, are different as they are businesses and don't profess to be a governing body.

I think it is fair to say that a branded promotion such as Glory is set up as a commercial enterprise.
The same is also largely true of governing or perhaps more accurately sanctioning bodies, though I imagine that control over titles is also a large factor.
To be clear I am not attacking the ICO in any way, they are simply the newest outfit to have caught my eye and don't seem to have attracted the scorn that others such as the WFK did when they appeared.
There are very few who I would believe if they told me that they valued ICO or similar as equal in prestige to WBC but in Bulldogs case I do. I recall when he used WKU and I believe that John Orchard under his guidance held a title that I had never heard of, something along the lines of CSW or similar?

Just to give you an idea why ICO arrived. Andy Henessy used to be part of the ISKA with his brother Paul, I have no idea why he decided to move on but he did and he opened up the ICO as he has great contacts in the world of Kick Boxing throughout the world. And has been building the brand from there and as I say is trying to build up the MT side of things, he's now covered some top events with Enfusion UK for Kieren Keddle and also John Jarvis shows, I've now taken part helping out also and have a few shows in the pipeline further up north and will do my best to help generate an accurate rankings system.

Accurate ranking is what is desperately needed. Amir done a great job with the K-1 style, but would be great to see full contact & thai also included. I have seen ICO events popping up all over the place, same with Austria's WKF who are growing massively with event sanctioning.

Good luck with the thankless task of rankings. Only as good as the info supplied and riddled with whingers complaining when they have contributed little or nothing. However, I don't mean to put a downer on it. It's a dirty job..........

However, back to Lee's point.
Initials are used for many different reasons, rarely with any consistency.
You mention John orchard and Csw. At this time I believed that he was the best full contact middleweight in the country. But we were out on a limb on the coast and things were not as spread out as they are now.
We were going into others back yards and winning contests that we were not expected to which made things even harder. We chased one particular fighter who was British champ but he had his sights on world honours and so it went on.

With a dangerous reputation and lack of profile we were stuck in a rut, so the only thing to do at the time was get him in the mix with a 'world title belt' . Worthless in itself but a platform that paved the way. That and the portfolio of opponents that was gathering. From there it became easier to pitch him with the bigger orgs, or actually as it turned out - the bigger fights, with or without a belt.
If we used the criteria of some of the current world champs I.e not stepping in the ring without a new belt on the line, Orchard would probably be a 30 times world champion.

So, before I bore the shit out of you with a trip to past glory, the initials facilitate the plan.
However enthusiastic anyone is about any set of initials, they suit a cause for as long as they do - and then they don't. The people that talked about one set of initials last year, are talking about a different set this year. This years saviours will be next years destroyers. Ukmf being a good example. People conveniently blame the org usually, but the reality is everyone is to blame.

If you picked an org with no written rule set or structure, but who let you pick your own officials and have your own way with everything, you got what you deserved. If you picked one with a decent criteria but that criteria became too restrictive when they would not approve Johnny big bollocks for a title, that's the price you paid for doing the job properly.
When, on the back of this , you move away from orgs and start 'branding' with no real plan except autonomy, you end up with the bag of shite we are sitting in now!

So, the initials are only as good as the fight. The org has to make as many of those as credible as they can, although I totally accept that there are many reasons why certain fights never happen.

Sorry , early morning active mind - too much waffle......

If you picked an org with no written rule set or structure, but who let you pick your own officials and have your own way with everything, you got what you deserved. If you picked one with a decent criteria but that criteria became too restrictive when they would not approve Johnny big bollocks for a title, that's the price you paid for doing the job properly.
When, on the back of this , you move away from orgs and start 'branding' with no real plan except autonomy, you end up with the bag of shite we are sitting in now!

Never has a truer word been written on AX!

As for "accurate" rankings in thai? I, along with the general UK thai community accept the thaifighter.co.uk rankings as the most accurate system about, why would you want to do your own? exactly the same as why people leave Orgs. if they don't get there way they water the whole thing down by adding more rankings/alphabet Orgs to the "bag of shit" we have now ;)

Meh, dunno about that. The 'branded' promotions that have actually established a brand are probably better than most shows using existing orgs.

Absolutely correct. They would not be the brands I speak of.
The train of thought is that if Glory, UFC etc can do it, everyone can. But many act without infrastructure or criteria.

They have no goal and are setting out to achieve nothing except and easy promotional ride.

David...Full-Contact Rankings coming soon ;-)

"you end up with the bag of shite we are sitting in now!"

Not we... But bloody true! 😊

Thais are fortunate there are so many of them

FC does not have the numbers to support the amount of promotors there is

FC shows used to have 10 FC bouts odd K1 odd boxing

Now seem to have have 10 boxing and the odd FC promoters the same just wher has FC GONE

Many blame the amateur scene but there aren't that many amateurs now they may be in pockets but not spread across the country

Gyms changing tack and chasing K1 may be the cause

I would just like to see the actual numbers FC actually has

The majority of shows are small now which dictates it's a small sport you support the low budget shows rather than the big productions then your also part of the problem

I'm still the largest FC promoter in Yorkshire but my large productions are throttled by all the small ones

All my profits have always gone into the fighters pockets but they still prefer to earn nowt! And fight on lesser events

Point and case

Fact is well all want change, but too many are happy to let others change it for them but by product of that is, it won't get changed how you want if your not involved in the change;-)

Well said Bulldog, and Dragonfoot.

Part and parcel of 'sanctioning' is the regulatory side of it. K-1 & Glory still to this day, i believe, work with ISKA/WKA to some degree. On top of this, in the US they have the regulation carried out by athletic commissions. I think ANY promotion that can offer a whopper of a purse/tournament prize fund, will automatically be seen as a premier brand, and their titles respected more than others.

And cheers Amir, seen the rankings page. Nice work. See you in August.

The sheep aren't the problem it's the shepherds!!!

I disagree....

How so?

the sheep are guided by the shepherds there are so many shepherds thats also a problem


You put the word out to the masses FREE licences for all, or We will pay you £10 to hve our license!

Either way the sheep will not get the message unless it is delivered to them by the shepherd

Like lemmings they will follow the shepherd over the edge of the cliff

People follow People end of

You and Colin leave IKF will your punters stay behind nope, they well follow you just how it is

So the shepherds come together and the sheep will follow in tow

it really is as simple as that

You can offer them the earth makes no difference the sheeo will always follow the shepdherd although new shepherds do come along, but unless the shepherds lead the sheep to unity it will alays stay devided

Ass kisses, Zombies, The Ignorant lots of terms for them just thought Sheep a bit nicer

Granted im either sheep nore shepherd but will always join the masses once they come together always said that ;-)

There are plenty of sheep who think they are shepherds and do their own thing. That's the biggest contributor to the mess. Headless chickens everywhere.

As soon as it ceases to suit the sheep, they move to the next thing and dilute the process even more.

Sure, there are people that follow me and Colin. And they are happy (whilst they are happy). They have structure and code that suits them. What's not to like. But as soon as that structure becomes too restrictive, they are off - usually to their own brand that amounts to nothing.

There is equal blame. This is not only about shepherds. At least some of the shepherds try to follow a pattern.

Guess I'm expected to agree and so probably shouldn't be posting, BUT I've got to say Carl has it bang on on nearly every point. The problems (and solutions maybe?) for the game are there above

So who's the sheepdog? :)

Wouldn't disagree we are saying the same thing

I've witnessed them moving and changing as it suits, this is why I pulled out of it

But to give people there dos most have stood by their convictions so credit where credits due

The shepherd is the channel when all the channels lead to one place then job done

But when the channels are like a Spirograph then will stay the mess it is

1 sport 1 group 1 vision.... Fried chicken lol

But the mavericks will always be there, we can't all want different things