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Topic:What's The Problem With Sanctioning?
ActionPromo's
Posted: 2014-07-03 08:04:32
Sorry to bring up an old chestnut again, but i just wanted to ask coaches out there this.

Q: Why do you support un-sanctioned events.
(this is not aimed at the top-level promotions, but the local ones)

Q: Why not insist that the promoter pays a small sanction fee to have the kick/thai side overseen professionally.

Q: Do you not care about sanctioning/regulation?
Q: Do you think it's ok to support non-sanctioned events?
Q: Does a show's prestige/image and the kudos attached with it come first?

It's a moral issue to sanction with me. I just really don't get it when coaches support unsanctioned events, yet in another breath they preach about there needing to be a governing body & increased regulation within their sports.
THEFTG
Posted: 2014-07-03 08:19:05
Couldn't agree more!
kevin dorman
Posted: 2014-07-03 14:51:25
I don't care wether shows are sanctioned providing they are run professionally. I don't personally see what extra a sanctioning body brings to a show. They all have their own agendas and don't work together to move the sport forward. If the sanctioning bodies dropped the politics and all worked towards the same goal then maybe they would be taken more seriously.
LeeJonesJnr
Posted: 2014-07-03 17:19:14
Seems that there is some confusion about what sanctioning actually means.
Philip Tieu
Posted: 2014-07-03 18:54:07
Kevin Doorman is spot on
ActionPromo's
Posted: 2014-07-04 03:41:33
I'm leaving the titles out of this one, i'm solely on about the regulatory side of it. I think having an independent, third-party overseer to ensure rules & regs are met is quite important. It also removes temptation for promoters to bend rules. Seen too often fighters come in overweight and have the promoter trying to convince the fighters to still go ahead with it for their titles.
I think it's also good that if there's disputes regarding decisions then there's a procedure in place and it's not down to the promoter to choose what's in his best interest. It's about fairness, really.
Dave Croft
Posted: 2014-07-04 04:38:32
Having been in some small part an involved party with the UKMF I can offer some insight into why sanctioning is a flawed dream.

Firstly there needs to be communication. Open and transparent. There needs to be financial stability and a respect from the community.

I feel the UKMF fundamentally lacked 2 of those elements. From my perspective there was a lack of respect shown towards the leadership. Which I regret meant me too. And decisions were made without consultation. Or at least not advised. The financial side was ok I guess.

If I signaled out one aspect it would be money. Real investment. The industry needs to be just that an industry before any governance can take place. People need to be able to live off their income. And in doing that invest in its future. Without that it's everyman for themselves. Un sanctioned, ungoverned shows. Inadequate medical cover, worthless titles....the list goes on.

So sanctioning and governing body. Great idea. Secure funding. Put a respected leadership in place and sit back and watch it grow.
LeeJonesJnr
Posted: 2014-07-04 07:03:13
Safety is the primary reason to use an officiating body, followed by correct and accountable officiating.
Given that there seems to be little faith in either from most organisations I think that shows must be judged on a case by case basis.
The model that is most touted is that of the BBBoC. The procedure for licensing helps to ensure that boxers are healthy enough and capable enough to compete. The medical requirements are far more thorough than the MT show doc taking your blood pressure and asking 'do you feel alright?' whilst the St Johns sit ringside with a box of plasters. Also on the night hospitals are informed in advance that an event is taking place and two doctors, one of whom must be an anaesthetist as well as two properly equipped ambulances must be on site.
MT shows are similar to the ever growing unlicensed boxing shows in that there is a huge variety of standards in every way, fighters, safety, production etc.
Money is the reason that people do not run events through an outside body, but even if one body were to somehow rise above others and become the official regulatory body, would it help?
Boxing has the BBBoC but unlicensed boxing has never been more popular. On top of that Maltese and Luxembourg licensed boxers who can't get a license with the BBBoC are boxing on shows sanctioned by the GBA etc.
Why would MT, which is already set in its ways, be any different?
ActionPromo's
Posted: 2014-07-04 08:15:45
Are there any coaches left that will only put their fighters onto sanctioned events?
LeeJonesJnr
Posted: 2014-07-04 08:56:09
Yes, BBBoC licensed trainers.
ActionPromo's
Posted: 2014-07-04 10:25:41
I mean in the kick/thai fraternity
If gyms/coaches didn't support unsanctioned shows, then there'd be none. The likes of Boxing & MMA promoters that thrown in the odd K-1 or Thai fight, should also be made to use accredited Kick/Thai officials, or as an absolute minimum, have an impartial supervisor there from a reputable body.
LeeJonesJnr
Posted: 2014-07-04 10:32:50
Meh, to my eyes all MT and FC shows in the UK are the level of unlicensed boxing as far as safety etc is concerned, regardless who puts their name to it.
ActionPromo's
Posted: 2014-07-04 15:09:51
That's quite an eye-opener. I've been to boxing events and seen a lone first aider there, and other times a single paramedic. If sanctioning bodies are allowing this then that is a shame.
LeeJonesJnr
Posted: 2014-07-04 15:36:54
Not BBBoC shows you haven't sir.
Unlicensed or GBA possibly.
ActionPromo's
Posted: 2014-07-04 15:44:14
Correct, not BBBoC. I don't think i was very clear in my previous reply... I meant that i've been to unlicensed boxing events (and MMA events) and seen this happen - some of these have even had 'K-1' on their undercards. So, if kickboxing in the UK is the same as unlicensed boxing with poor medical cover, then it's terrible the kickboxing sanctioning bodies allow it. It's also ridiculous that kickboxing coaches (or any coach) allow their fighters onto such shows.

I don't know if the GBA are operating in England, i know the Malta Boxing Commission are, and obviously the Luxembourg Federation were also. I've heard the Malta Boxing Commission are very strict.
LeeJonesJnr
Posted: 2014-07-04 18:47:11
No, Malta grant licenses to boxers that the BBBoC will not.
MT and FC essentially is unlicensed. What makes an ISKA or ICO title ant better than an EBF title?
There are quite a few none BBBoC professional boxing shows going on now as well as the many many unlicensed shows. Unlicensed boxing may or may not get looked at by the government soon following the death of a competitor at an unlicensed show recently, though it's unclear at present what the cause of death was.
ActionPromo's
Posted: 2014-07-04 19:17:10
Apart from the EBF being a complete joke, I'd say that when I've had the iska at my events they've checked a doctor + team were present. Ebf on the other hand i've known for them to turn a blind eye to weigh ins, and even had fighters take a dive. Yes, including a few of my mates whose boxed for them loads.

And what is it With the Ebf licenses they try to force boxers to buy for 20quid a pop? Sorry, totally went off track. I do dislike the ebf.
LeeJonesJnr
Posted: 2014-07-05 06:11:09
I am not in the least bit championing EBF or any other unlicensed boxing group, however to think that MT and kickboxing are in a better position seems naive.
A BBBoC license costs more than £20, the fact is that to regulate a sport properly money has to come from somewhere.
LeeJonesJnr
Posted: 2014-07-05 06:27:04
I suppose a lot of people might think that regulation is either done or it isn't - why pay an organisation to sort of do it?
Colin Payne
Posted: 2014-07-05 13:24:50
'I don't care wether shows are sanctioned providing they are run professionally.....HOW DOES ANYONE KNOW THAT THOUGH??..UNTIL ITS TOO LATE. I KNOW THAT WHEN I AM INVITED TO A SHOW SANCTIONED BY SAY THE WKA (FOR EXAMPLE) I CAN EXPECT CERTAIN THINGS TO BE PLACE AT THAT SHOW ON SAFETY AND THE WAY THEY SUPERVISE THINGS,. I DO NOT WANT TO ASK IF THOSE THINGS ARE THERE, IF I HAVE TO THEN I DON'T GO. I SHOULD BE ABLE TO TAKE IT FOR GRANTED.

I don't personally see what extra a sanctioning body brings to a show...SEE ABOVE. IN THE WEEK AFTER SOMEONE DIED AT A COMBAT SPORT EVENT NO FURTHER NEEDS TO BE SAID


They all have their own agendas and don't work together to move the sport forward...YEP FAIR POINT, HARD TO ARGUE WITH IF HONEST, BUT I STILL SAY THEY ARE DOING MORE FOR THE SPORT THAN THOSE WHO HAVE THEIR OWN BRANDED SHOWS AND LETS GET STRAIGHT TO THE POINT, THE RATHER REASON PEOPLE DON'T SANCTION IS MONEY. THEY WONT PAY THE MONEY, COS THEY CAN GET THEIR MATES TO JUDGE, THEY CAN GET SECOND RATE MEDICS, ETC ETC..


If the sanctioning bodies dropped the politics and all worked towards the same goal then maybe they would be taken more seriously.'...POLITICS MAKES THE WORLD RUN, IT CAN'T BE HELPED..BUT AS SAID ABOVE STILL NOT A REASON TO NOT DO IT PROPERLY
DanUK
Posted: 2014-07-05 13:51:49
I often have a disscenting opinion and probably will have here too, but...

Lots of now big promotions, Enfusion, Glory, K1 etc do just fine without needing a sanctioning body don't they?

As long as a promotion has adequate medical care, and "qualified" judges, does a set of initials matter?

And just what does a qualified FC judge have to do to become qualified? Because i've been to various shows and still continue to see shocking judging. Still seems like aggression and work-rate trump skill, accuracy and effect.

And finally, what have any of the sanctioning bodies done to promote pro FC in the last few years? As far as i can see, none of them have accurate up to date rankings,there seem to be very few publicised pro titles contested these days?

Seems like most of the top fighters are moving to pro boxing or "promotions" where they can earn a decent wage for fewer rounds?

Not a dig at any person or org in particular, just how i see things at the moment.

kevin dorman
Posted: 2014-07-06 05:42:23
Colin Payne - the Thai boxing world is a small world. Decent clubs know who run the reputable shows. I don't need a sanctioning body to tell me who will run a good professional show.

Someone could die at a sanctioned event.... I have not seen dr's/medicle staff do any other checks that I have seen at none sanctioned events. A totally healthy person could end up with a brain bleed.

A lot of shows now use the ibmto as officials on thier shows. This ensures a fair, balanced and consistent level of officiating.

The main event is not sanctioned and they are doing as much for bringing Thai boxing to the main stream as any sanctioning body.
ActionPromo's
Posted: 2014-07-06 08:29:21
Dan UK: I'm sure Glory & K-1 use ISKA in most locations except New York where they have to go through WKA. And for events in the USA, most places are sanctioned through the athletic commissions who ensure the regulations are met anyway...

Kevin: I would say it's the quality of the immediate after-care should a fighter get injured, that's the big difference. Would you prefer a GP, trauma specialist, paramedic or St John's Ambulance volunteer with a few plasters?


I wonder if a lot of coaches have given up on the need/want for regulation. Maybe it's just easier to get fights, maybe more pay and/or the opportunities to fight for titles, by going on unregulated shows? Ah well...
kevin dorman
Posted: 2014-07-06 09:06:10
Actionpromo's ... I use the same medics for my shows that I have seen work on iska shows not st johns ambulance. There are a lot of professional medic teams out there now, a lot with previous paramedic experience.

I also us the IBMTO to officiate my shows.

This is a formula used by a lot of the reputable shows now.

I fail to see what extra a sanctioning body will bring to a show other than titles....

kevin dorman
Posted: 2014-07-06 09:15:35
Also the IBMTO have their own procedures in place to keep the fighters as safe as possible. As the IBMTO officiate a lot of shows up and down the country they get to see fighters over and over again. They will refuse to officiate a match when one of the fighters should be serving a fight suspension due to a stoppage etc.

The sport is getting safer but also more people are involved in the sport every year.

As the number of participants grow then the number of opportunities for injury to occur in the ring grows. Considering the whole idea of a fight is to go out and cause your opponent damage the number of serious injuries in the sport is very low. This is a testament to how in general the sport run and officiated. This is not to say that on some show somewhere something does not get overlooked. There is always room for improvement.

There are more cases in this country of people dying during a football game than in a boxing ring.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_association_footballers_who_died_while_playing
ActionPromo's
Posted: 2014-07-06 10:49:21
I understand where you're coming from Kevin and i think it's a good method. As my post is aimed more towards the regulation side, you could say that the IBMTO are regulating your show as a third-party - same as a sanctioning body. Same thing more or less. In this case, you're not the type of event i'm on about. I'm on about where a promoter basically chooses their own officials, standards of medical cover, oversees own weigh-ins, etc, and basically does what he/she likes.
Colin Payne
Posted: 2014-07-06 12:24:22
I don’t think anyone will ever convince me that shows don’t need a regulatory body if honest. And no one has here either
LeeJonesJnr
Posted: 2014-07-06 13:59:56
Such as who?
THE BULLDOG
Posted: 2014-07-07 13:15:42
No over relevant to be fair Lee. I think Colin's just trying to say that regulation is required to move forward and it looks as though most others are in their own way, however they perceive regulation to be defined.
But it's an old chestnut and unlikely to be solved any time soon.



LeeJonesJnr
Posted: 2014-07-07 15:55:57
Mr Bulldog sir, my question was meant to address the post before, in order to find out who these promoters who do whatever they wish etc.

This thread has taken a half turn away from the OPs original point and I am probably to blame for that. As has been discussed many times, the current situation is not the way things should be, but whilst many can see the problems, nobody can see the solutions.
THE BULLDOG
Posted: 2014-07-08 03:34:56
I see sir. I beg your pardon. Points taken.
You are correct. Many can see the problems, many more think they have somewhere to lay the blame, usually based on a viewpoint passed down by someone else or isolated experiences. The generalisations are not helpful and grossly inaccurate sometimes as well.

The blame, and therefore the inability to find the solution lays squarely with everyone.
There is a list as long as your arm of reasons why which all lead to the real truth. And that truth is that too high a percentage of people in the game don't actually want the restriction of regulation. they want to moan and point fingers when things are not right, but they don't want to make the sacrifice it takes to make it right.

Those that do fight an uphill battle as they are surrounded by this crap.

I watch people week in and week out moaning about discrepancies, and then pitch themselves straight in to that promoters next event.

It does not really matter who is regulating or sanctioning as long as they follow a guideline.
People have mentioned Orgs being blanked in favour of individual brands. That's fine if the rule sets and regs are in place and adhered to. Glory, K1 etc have that covered. No problem.

But many others couldn't even tell you what happens in the case of an accidental stoppage in the 2nd round because they are still discussing rules sets between themselves in the changing rooms before a contest. there is nothing written down, no rules confirmed, in fact they have not even thought about it because their priorities are different.They can put their own brand title on and save £250, and whilst they are at it, they can give the fight to the biggest ticket seller.

It's become a yawn with easy scapegoats and crap quotes like 'all the politics killing things'. It's not politics - it's the people!
Singto Muay
Posted: 2014-07-08 04:23:31
Bulldog that was bang on point!

Muay Thai in the Uk is in a bad a place as it was 10-15years ago. Its embarrassing :(

Safety ask Don Heatrick who was having a cardiac arrest during his fight how important qualified medical staff are.

I have seen friends with great intention, belittled, ousted, bullied and betrayed trying to bring the sport forward. It had a full steam of head, working well, until a small group of individuals couldn't get it their own way. Babies!

Now 6 years on, threads like this one are popping up time and time again.. Its a shame.

Everyone is now going to have to wait till an idiot, or bully with some cash takes over.

Good luck with that ;)
ActionPromo's
Posted: 2014-07-08 04:36:25
I do wonder why each of the organisations and major promotions operate to such difference weight classes. I personally like the Enfusion weights as i think there's too many divisions in most kickboxing.

ActionPromo's
Posted: 2014-07-08 05:04:37
I think;

1) Minimum medical cover & medical examinations
2) Weigh-in procedures to be overseen by an independent supervisor
3) A minimum of a Supervisor and chief official to attend
4) Supervisor checks score cards, and generally oversees everything
5) Appeals procedures in place and to be handled by the supervisor
(no doubt there's loads more i've missed off ie wraps checking, etc, but i hope you get the drift)

Impartiality, fairness, rulebook to follow and to be overseen.

You'd think it wouldn't be that hard for the established people in the industry to all agree upon, and moreso, just all work together under a unified body/brand. Is this something similar to what the IMBTO do for Thai, or MMA Officials for MMA?
chris podesta
Posted: 2014-07-08 06:41:54
we the IBMTO provide inderpendant officals:

1 Reff and 3 judges upto 14 fights, and a floater reff/judge for 14 fights or more.
1 judge will be the head of the 3
If requested we would be present at the weigh in.
we do the rules meeting.
Also as a board we can and have refused to officate any bout we deem to be unsafe.
We are not a sanctioning body.
Colin Payne
Posted: 2014-07-08 06:49:24
A few current issues/examples that for me support sanctioning:

Club/trainer fails to attend with fighters at a show, no explanation, no excuse. Now on a regulated show action can and does happen, that person gets possibly suspended and other orgs support it, therefore 'justice' if you like has been seen to be done. If that happens on self regulated 'world's hardest tuffguy' promotion nothing will happen, that guy/club will just go off to spoil the next show up the road

Fighter gets KO'ed one week on unregulated show, fights next week, happens again. Now this is not fail proof with any org, but the work believe me does go on, fighters are medically suspended and if they fight during that period they will be given lengthy bans which will be upheld by the other orgs.

Shows run by the major orgs DO NOT go ahead without doctor, paramedic crew AND ambulance. There is no guidelines laid down for any of the self regulated promoters. Now they may of course have all that but they don't have to is my point and then maybe I'm not going to read in a newspaper report again the line 'treatment was given to the downed fighter whilst they awaited the arrival of the ambulance' FFS

Ok those are just a few for me, but couple more things. People are bringing Glory, K1 etc in as examples of brand shows that don't need regulation (not entirely correct as action promos has pointed out) but those really are not where the problems lie as they actually make up just a minority. The real issue is with all the others whose 'authority' goes no further than the town where the shows are held. Made up rules, ridiculous titles (thou don't want to get too bogged down on titles), self appointed officials, etc etc. That is where the real problem lies and as I said above they do it themselves to save money full stop!


tat2
Posted: 2014-07-08 06:52:07
What's The Problem With Sanctioning?..... the same as its always been , since the days of the BTBC , BMTA etc long time ago but those on here that were around back then will prob say the same ..... we have learned nothing in all these years.

same shit going on but diff people .... one of the reasons I pulled away from mainstream teaching and putting fighters out was all the bullshit and politics
Dave Croft
Posted: 2014-07-08 07:54:30
Ryan is correct. There was an outstanding effort made by the UKMF to regulate the UK scene. But as i pointed out further back on the thread it failed due to a lack of respect or at least respect for the main players involved. Decisions were made for people without consultation and a lack of funding meant that a pursuit of adequate revenue became a priority.

From a personal view. few medics ring side can deal (be it skill set or limitations imposed by insurance) with cuts. Promoters insurance rarely covers fighter to fighter liability. And scant regard of a fighters medical history is common place.

Maybe as Ryan said/wrote. One day a monied bully will invest heavily and float the industry on his sea of rules. And then we're all sunk ha ha.....
ActionPromo's
Posted: 2014-07-08 13:34:49
So, why are established coaches supporting these types of events that lack a lot of the basics? Are they just 'putting trust' into the promoter to have these things in place? There's loads of established unlicensed boxing promoters around my way that have been going for years, draw big crowds, and have good fights on. Yet, most of them get by on having a single paramedic there, turn blind eyes to weight issues, and a host of other things, yet, there's established coaches who are actively putting fighters onto some of the biggest shows in the UK, also putting them on these types of events. It's crazy.
Singto Muay
Posted: 2014-07-11 04:43:12
I have tried to stay away for Unsanctioned shows for about 7 years, after an incident at one left another gyms fighter up shits creek without a paddle or pot to piss in.

the problem is that there are to few a shows, we've missed out on some great fights and titles, money. Even suggested in one show i would pay the sanctioning fee from our purse, but was turned down.
Singto Muay
Posted: 2014-07-11 04:46:51
The lack of respect cam from petty jealousy, lack of communication from all sides didn't help either.

The main crutch is that some people just didn't want it to succeed and sat on the fence waiting to see... Well, now you can see.. Well done!
LeeJonesJnr
Posted: 2014-07-11 05:19:40
Why is everyone so shy?
Who is putting on these dangerous shows with insufficient medical care, safety standards and shady officiating?
ActionPromo's
Posted: 2014-07-11 06:59:06
Mostly i find are the MMA events that throw in boxing and k-1 on the undercard as well. I rarely see a full contact only show that is unsanctioned, but am finding more and more k-1 sprouting up.
LeeJonesJnr
Posted: 2014-07-11 07:10:46
Details.
Where?
When?
Promoted by who?

Throwing around vague statements as if they are facts will not facilitate change.
ActionPromo's
Posted: 2014-07-11 07:54:04
I don't want to get into a 'name & shame' situation as it doesn't help me with my query. There's various promotions around my area, some good, some poor, just like everywhere. I just don't understand why established coaches put their fighters on certain events. An example i've come across would include a thai gym that will only support thai shows sanctioned by UKMF as they claim it's to do with standards, but they'll put the same fighters on an unsanctioned boxing/k1/mma event doing say k-1.
LeeJonesJnr
Posted: 2014-07-11 09:13:28
Blah blah blah.
Simple way to find out is ask them then isn't it.
Singto Muay
Posted: 2014-07-11 15:44:50
I've never come across that... I do put fighters out on any shows
Singto Muay
Posted: 2014-07-11 15:45:11
I've never come across that... I dont put fighters out on any shows
ActionPromo's
Posted: 2014-07-11 18:33:44
.... and that's what i am doing, and putting it to the wider audience for opinions. Isn't that what forums are for?
LeeJonesJnr
Posted: 2014-07-12 02:31:11
If your motive is to gather answers you need to stop being afraid to ask specific people about specific events, not cast a vague net and hope you catch something.
You say you know of coaches taking fighters to dodgy events, so be specific.

"Mr whoever from whatever gym, why did you support such and such event on whatever date?"

If dangerous events bother you but not enough to be brave enough to identify them then ask in person rather than on here.
ActionPromo's
Posted: 2014-07-12 07:44:53
It's nothing to do with being brave, it's a case of asking the general opinions of a wider audience after all we're supposed to have members on here from all over the UK/World. I don't understand why you're trying to dictate to me what i should be doing when this is a 'forum', and forums are usually for debating.

Having spoken with two clubs that do this one has said they're not bothered about sanctioning as they're all corrupt (bit of a generalisation there, and obviously not true, and the other, although didn't come out with it outright, i got the feeling it was because they expect that the promoter has inroads to larger events.

I am not going to name gyms, i don't see the point in shit stirring.
LeeJonesJnr
Posted: 2014-07-12 07:50:23
I don't wish to dictate to you sir. The sport is an amateurish mess and will never change, I am long since resigned to that fact.
It seems pointless to ask nobody in particular when you say you know the coaches, gyms and events in question. That said, almost everything on every forum is fairly pointless I suppose.
LeeJonesJnr
Posted: 2014-07-12 08:02:01
I realise that the phrase 'amateurish mess' sounds confrontational.
To be clear, I speak through frustration that MT and FC are the way they are, not to insult anyone. Boxing and MMA are streets ahead in almost every way, but there is no real reason why. I wish I knew the solution.
ActionPromo's
Posted: 2014-07-12 08:16:34
I don't really know what you mean by 'amateurish mess', as opposed to a 'professional mess'? Back to my query - the same thing is going on all over the country - we want better standards yet we don't support those that try to offer it. To me, it's like a pro boxing coach supporting unlicensed boxing events, yet in another breath saying that standards need to be raised. There's a few ABA coaches my way that also complain about the unlicensed scene being a farce, yet they repeatedly put fighters onto them to "Get them a bit of experience" - isn't that's what the ABA's are for?

I see Amateur & Pro boxing both being years ahead of Kick/MT, but i certainly don't see MMA that way, not at local level at least.
LeeJonesJnr
Posted: 2014-07-12 08:24:27
Both BBBoC licensed trainers and ABA accredited coaches are prohibited from taking boxers to unlicensed events.
If you genuinely know of coaches doing this then say so and say who.
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weazeldeazel
Posted: 2014-07-12 16:09:11
What's the POINT of sanctioning?

it's all very well stating the obvious but nine times out of ten it comes down to promoters with integrity, you can have that wether you use a body or not

I have used a few for my shows, never once have I had my medics checked, been informed of a medical suspension or been advised on how an injured fighter can claim off the "insurance" which incidentilly can be obtained by anyone for a one off payment direct to martial guard

What puts me off sanctioning, all of the above. Their self serving agenda, title shots to bums, value for money the list goes on

The thing that gets me is it's usually a gym owner / promoter at the top of the bodies dictating how it's done, not exactly independent/impartial
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