It appears that one organization may be approved to do kickboxing events in NY. This however is not good news because the organization that has been approved has many problems, not the least of which they have done almost nothing inside NY, have no connections to any of the NY people and their rules and officials frankly are pathetic

An organization which claims to do kickboxing but outlaws the spin back fist because, and I quote, "someone could get knocked out"

An organization which claims to sanction Muay Thai but bans catching the kick and the clinch knee

An organization in which the judges routinely score 10-10 rounds

An organization in which a fighter is dropped by a cross and receives a count but wins the round because, and again I quote, "this is Muay Thai and since they threw a knee in the clinch, they won the round"

An organization a prominent NY MT coach called "a scam"

It's a sad day for contact MA in NY

Geez that could be a lot of organizations! Which one gets the nod in NY?

you'll see, I suspect the news will break any day now

or the other option is that they didn't get the nod either, and basicly KB is dead in the state

you'll see, I suspect the news will break any day now

or the other option is that they didn't get the nod either, and basicly KB is dead in the state

Hey David, As you know I have not revealed the organization in public do to my negtiations with them from the start.

I have been negotiating the issues that you are speaking of here.

I have recomended that they aprove the use of all of the rules that are commonly used in Ny under the 3 main organizations IKF /USKBA/ISKA on ours and other events for the different rules of kickboxing.

This has been a major issue with them and they have recently told me that they will consider what I refer to as the unifed rules of kickboxing used in NYS.

When I get A clear answer on some of these issues then I will let you know.

In the mean time this is the only way that we will be able to do shows at this time in NY .

I didn't spill the beans for obvious reasons, but I have SEVERE doubts, especially after the two events I went to of theirs... in fact, after their last FIASCO I swore never to deal with them, because of all the issues. I was not alone, Extreme, Phil, Aziz, everyone was pissed with them

I can do MT or SS, I can even do leg kick, what they were doing was none of the above

It it can work out, great, lord knows I have the people, I am taking 13 fighters to the Arnold event, I have 18 available at any time.. we show up and we do our thing, but the rules of said organization if done like in the past, SUCK...

but have a nice day, nothing against you obviously

I didn't spill the beans for obvious reasons, but I have SEVERE doubts, especially after the two events I went to of theirs... in fact, after their last FIASCO I swore never to deal with them, because of all the issues. I was not alone, Extreme, Phil, Aziz, everyone was pissed with them

I can do MT or SS, I can even do leg kick, what they were doing was none of the above

It it can work out, great, lord knows I have the people, I am taking 13 fighters to the Arnold event, I have 18 available at any time.. we show up and we do our thing, but the rules of said organization if done like in the past, SUCK...

but have a nice day, nothing against you obviously

I hear you david, You would be amazed at some of the conversations that we have had on these issues.I have been speaking to them about all of these isuues and others as well since day one and hope to resolve many of these issues before we have an event.

It is amazing how we have worked so hard to promote the sport and work together for so long in NYs and now we will have to get aproval from people from outside of NYS.

I am not very happy with the state of the sport in this state now and hope we can get back on track soon.

David, Tommy,
So what organization is it?
We know it's not us that has said or done what David says above, so WHO?
Are you saying it was one of the other two? Or someone not mentioned...

Hey Steve , It is none of the 3 mentioned IKF /ISKA /ISKA We all have worked with all 3 before and I have A good working relationship with all 3.

The organization that has been aproved is the only Kickboxing organization on the big 12 list that still exsist.

I have not spoken of them yet because it was not clear to me that they would be aproved until now as the commission has told me that they are aproved.

It is the WKA on the list they where registered as the World karate Association.

I was the one to contact the WKA and make them aware that they where on the list and put them in contact with the NYS commission as I have pretty much let people know of each step .

After the commission did there research and found out that it is the same WKA that is on the list they had no choice but to agree to aprove them to sanction events in NYS.

The commission has always referred us back to the list before and after they said that they would try to get the state to aprove promoters to be licensed by the state and then we would be able to use any one that we choose.

I am not sure what went on in those evnts in NYC as I was never at one of those events in the church street gym whre they where held.

I do know that the WKA has told me yesterday that they would take my recomendations under consideration to try to unify there rules with the IKF/ISKA/USKBA as I told them this would be best for all involved in all styles.

I explained that we use different organizations on my events all of the time including organizations based in Europe with simular rules and they have always agreed to use our rules.

My fighters and myself hold titles based in Europe and Tarek Rached won the gold medal in the last WKA World championships .

We have A clear understanding of the rules differences in the US and Europe in all styles and they are not that big of A differnce and I hope that we can work it out very soon.

just curious?
And yu mentioned PHIL?
do you mean my former Student / Fighter / Instructor Phil Nurse?
cheers !
Please give him my regards ! as you know hes in NYC teaching Muay-thai
thankyou !
sandy man holt

David,As you know I will not do A an event if it can not be done professional.

If I do not feel that I can do an event that is up to our ussual standards for all involved especially the fighters and the fans than I will not do an event.

I would rather go back to A regualar job full time and just keep the good memmories than be A part of the destruction of the sport that we all love and have worked so hard to get it to the level that it is at now.

This is why all of these issues have already been brought up without me ever being at the events at the Church street boxing gym.

The WKA is now in a position that many have wished to be in for a long time "the sole organization in this region".The ball is in there court and I hope that they are smart enough to want to work with us and not aginst us.This will work out for all promoters,fighters,gyms, and of course the WKA if they are willing to work with the existing standards in NYS.
I will be looking for venues this week and then I will ask the WKA to sanction the event. This is when I will find out if they are willing to work with us or not.I do think that it will work out.

Sandy : I hope to get Phil Nurse to put some of his fighters on my events. I have tried for a long time and he has told me recently that he will have his fighters on my next event . His fighters are very good and I look foward to having them on our events.

Of course I wasn't talking about the IKF or the USKBA, I work with both, I will say without reservation both are top organizations run by professionals. Both have real sets of rules for FC, MT, LK and SS... Both have worked with the existing gyms and promoters and fighters

As I said the rules were ridiculous. The first event they had no rules meeting then tried to DQ a fighter for using a spin back fist in the ring with no explanation. If you sign up for a Muay Thai rules fight, and aren't told otherwise, you do spin back fists and don't think they are an issue. We also found out IN THE RING, DURING A FIGHT that you can't catch a kick. This is in a Thai match!

Their explanation of why they use their rules was non-existant or frankly stupid (a spin back fist can ko guys, DUH, so let's not do any kind of kickboxng then, ok? we will just do point sparring).

I saw 10-10 rounds on every fight, one judge seemed to use them every fight.

I watched a fighter get destroyed, floored with a cross and not back on the feet until 8, only to win the round? WTF? The explanation, she used some knees and in wka, if you throw a knee you win the round??

Yousef taghizadeh got hit with a solid hook, no question, but kept fighting and wasn't woppled or showed effect, he was given a standing 8 count. OK, whatever, but when he proceeded to put the other guy in the corner and punch, kick and knee him most of the round with no response, the other guy didn't get a count, and on 2 of the three judges' cards he won the rounds.

Like I said, Extreme Lacosta, Phil Nurse, Aziz, Borodin and pretty much everyone there swore they would never do a WKA event again

howd i KNOW that?
They was ONCE a force to be reckoned with in the U.K. TOO !
Shame ! Everyone has thier time as they say !
and it ALL GOES round in circles ! ( `O` )

Hey Sandy! Were their rules as bad in UK as they are here? Oh my lord they were bad rules, for Thai boxing no clinch, no catching a kick, no spin back fist, etc etc etc...

Phil is a great coach and more importantly a class act, true gentleman..

The last organization we sanctioned with before starting the IKF was the WKA. We paid sanctioning fees to have a U.S. Title fight. The incoming fighter no showed at the event. We asked WKA who else our fighter could fight and they said they didn't care.
Next their wka rep told us our fighter was the automatic champion. But WKA never got us our belt. So, we tried to schedule another fight, only to find out that 4 other guys in California (Amateurs) all held "THE SAME TITLE!" When we asked wka about it their EXACT QUOTE WAS:

"Who cares about amateur fighters... Too many just quit anyway..."

Thus the start of the IKF, keeping track of amateur fighters, titles held etc. We found it odd that NO OTHER ORGANIZATION kept track of amateur records, rankings let alone amateur titles and many pro titles as well. It was all about the money to them... at least that's the impression they gave...

Well, we don't have to say what this all led to with us...
WKA "Use to be" a great organization, but it simply shocks us how they have just never kept up with progress over the years. They still brag about being the oldest, but age does not equal excellence... If that were true, "I'm one of the most excellant kickboxers of all time!"... LOL!!!

Too bad NY is working with OLD regulations and old names... You would think they would try to speed up with the times...

Oh well. We don't know much about wka usa. Their rep, Brian Crenshaw seems like a good guy, but we don't know him enough to judge him. He seems to be trying hard at what he does. Mike Miles is a good man for wka Canada.

Who knows, maybe it will work out fine. It's just sad they don't pick up the pace from their headquarters in England... but than again, maybe they just don't have that burning desire and passion to lead the charge of improving our sport... Without passion... what else will drive us to success...

Remember;

"Our "Potential" for success is related to the level of "Passion" we have for it..."

New York kickboxing was doing just fine, growing and progressing well when we could use the organizations of our choice, IKF and USKBA. I've sanctioned with both, love both, now some government agency is telling me I have to work with WKA like some monopoly? like some racket? like some sort of mafia shake down!

So much for democracy and freedom of choice

yes, I am PISSED

Mr Fossum, Crenshaw was at those two poor excuses for events. He took no responsibility for anything and acted totally clueless, maybe he's a nice guy, but he's a really poor official

Hey David, As I said I am in negotiations with the WKA on all of these issues.

I do not think that by coming on here and to continue to bad mouth them and the commission at this point is going to get us any where.

I have had many issues with all sanctioning bodies in the past on our events as well as others and usually they will work out these issues with the promoter/Fighters before the event takes place.

You now have the right to promote your own event and contact the WKA on these issues.

I have been told by the commission many times that these kind of insults to them is A factor in them getting so involved with Kickboxing now.

I am waiting to hear back from the WKA on these issues before I promote an event. I will let you know of there answer as soon as I get one.

I think that we should give them a chance to work with us before we go out in public with all fof these negative staements.

As it stands now we have no choice but to work with the WKA if we want to have kickboxing back in NYS.

From a legal point of view, even if I was to state that one of them is the offspring of a goat, that wouldn't give them the right to act. That's not the point. And citizens have a right to protest unfiar and possibly illegal actions by our government. At this point, myself and others are exploring a whole variety of actions.

They are acting on the law, a law which Albany expanded because of two upstate promoters who were trying to be wise guys and were doing illegal events. Sad but we are suffering because some idiots couldn't play by the rules.

However, they are also acting based upon HALF of the law, as the law clearly states they have authority to add or delete groups to the "list". Their failure to meet this obligation potentially opens them up for an article 78 action. That's just a small part of the behind the scenes story now.

As for the WKA, I resent being forced to work with a body I feel is not up to meeting the task. Hugo Spindola, legal counsel for the commission says they want to use these laws for the safety and well being of the athletes and the community, giving a monopoly to a single organization is NOT meeting this end, especially when the organization being given the monopoly doesn't live up to its responsibilities

Perhaps you can make the WKA live up to this and conduct fair events. But you'll forgive me for having server reservations and doubting they will.

I can't see how an organizatin which bans spin back fists, kick catching and clinching is ever going to be of any use to the San Shou community. A community which has just gotten IOC recognition and is a possible contender for Olympic status.

The commission has made a potential Olympic sport illegal, isn't that sad?

I agree with all of those points.

As far as the WKA is concerned I still have not agreed to do a event until they can give me some answers to all of our questions.

I agree that the aproved list is not fair or legal as the law states that it can be added to if an organization meets the standards. This has always been our argument .

My concern is being able to do events soon and not have to wait for the legal mess to be staringtened out.

We are almost 8 months from the last major event in NY and if we are not able to have events in the near future we will be starting over as most of the best up and coming fighters will no longer be around to fight when there are shows again in the state.

I only hope all of the people that say that they are pursuing legal actions are sucessful .

What I do now is I waited A long time and nothing happened . If the WKA is willing to work with us we can begin to do events again now .

I learned Aong time ago not to sit around waiting for people in tis industry to make things happen. I also that chances are that they are only out for there own interest anyway and we still can be inthe same situation with another organization in the future.

This is why I always asked the commission to allow IKF/USKBAISKA to be added to the listas they should be.

There should never be the state telling us that we have to work with only 1 organization whichever one it may be.

Tommy, as you well know, we've worked together for a long time, since 1994!!! I consider you a friend!! Nothing personal at all, and if you do an event with WKA and the rules are something my people can actually do you know we'll be there.

My posts are not related to you, or your efforts. I understand them, and as I said, I will support you if I can.

Just so we are clear on all that :)