Like a lot of people, I used to hold K-1 up as a great achievemet and thought it was the future of our sport. Like a lot of people, I haven't been too happy with some of the recent stuff associated with K-1...

Perhaps it's a coincidence, but at the same time I am seeing some astounding growth of more "mixed" style kickboxing. In the US, we are finally starting to get San Da off the ground, and it is certainly growing in China still.

In Japan, I am seeing more shootboxing. And there are plans to grow it. mr Caesar is also working with Chinese San Da and with Korean Kyok Too Ki...

Which is why when I went to dinner last night I guess it all hit me. I picked up the paper (I was in NYC's Korea Town) and there it was, a front page story on how Kyok Too Ki was growing quickly in Korea. For a long time it was just a little niche sport. Now it has grown very quickly in a short time..

Shootboxing, San Da, Kyok Too Ki, also basicly the same format, all now working together and increasingly so...

Anyone think this is the future of the sport? Or did I just drink too much Sake last night?

I think Shootboxing rules are great- Literally everything that is found in MuayThai but with the addition of hip throws and suplexes. I though that San Da was differnet from this in that it doesn't allow elbows, knees in the clinch and some other details. Is this right?

What about Kyok Too Ki- How does this vary in rules and is it closer to San Da or Shootboxing? Perhaps you could post a full rules listing for San Da/ Shou.

Shootboxing may be gaining popularity but it is still relatively small. There are only about 5 shows in Japan and a couple in Australia per year so it has a long way to catch up with the frequency of MT promotions.

Shootboxing is growing but it's a future of it's own sport. I don't see it really becoming anyhting than what it really is. Sanda is very different from shootboxing and I really don't see much growth happening there in the US nor do I frankly see the basis of comparison. Shootboxing has a lot more money and coverage behind it than I think sanda ever will and as Satan Kid has astutely pointed out it has it's won set of rules very different than sanda.

What's up with that girl? Can you leave yourself more open for getting kicked or punched in the face than that posture?

San Da ALLOWS knees in the clinch. Yes, most events currently do not allow elbows, but that is changing. We are working on setting up the pro level with elbows and in a way very similar to shootboxing. Amateur events might start haivng elbows with the pads

As for growing, we are holding our first US tournament and have over 50 pre registered, and from many backgrounds. We have been royally screwed by the NYSAC situation, we are about 3 years behind now, but I think in the next few months you will see some big changes in US based San Da

King of San Da USA rules can be found at http://www.angelfire.com/sd2/kingofsanda/ksdrules.html

There is already a lot of cooperation between shootboxing and China's san da, we want to create a US-Japan link now too...

Kyok Too Ki is basicly shootboxing from what we see, scoring is a bit different though.

As for the girl, I don't know, I just scanned the front page of the paper! Don't attack me :)

I like Sake and shootboxing, so you are definitely not alone. :)


I am glad you scanned the pic from the Koren paper. Can you tell me the name of the papaer and date of theat particular edition?
I would like to get the full article. If the girl is for real, I would like to get her details/profile for my webpage.

also, are Yandoli and Ponce fighting San da rules?

i know thats a lot of questions but it would sure be appreciated.


dan

Yandoli and Ponce are fighitng san da rules, the WHOLE event is san da rules, ie with knees, though this is amateur no elbows...

I have to get my fried to read the newspaper particulars though she said the woman was two time national Kyok Too Ki champion and in two different federations, we hear there are actually 6 different associations doing this in Korea now

The KSD tournament should be GREAT!

www.KingofSanDaUSA.com for details

David - This looks like a great prospect for kickboxing as a whole. I, too have been bitterly disappointed with the K-1 lately and have been following the SuperLeague (muayThai) and the shootboxing in Japan. Wouldn't it be great to create a "new" fightsport of the future that is essentially allows all striking techniques, clinching and throwing?

Have you considered a promotion like San Da versus muayThai here in the US to draw more exposure and interest? Like the San Da champs versus the muayThai champs, amateur and pro?

We are thinking more along the lines of a Pro league under King of San Da USA that is fair and open to ALL. We will have a number of Muay Thai athletes in the amateur tournament this weekend, I think it is a good venue for them. If we go ahead and add elbows with elbow pads, it will be even better. I support my sport and I don't like people talking crap, but I have equal respect for good Muay Thai, and the "vs" thing does tend to cause hard feelings...

lkfmdc writes:

We are thinking more along the lines of a Pro league under King of San Da USA that is fair and open to ALL. We will have a number of Muay Thai athletes in the amateur tournament this
-------------------------------------

Sounds good to me. Any sport that lets fighters use knees and elbows deserves respect.

I would like to learn more about San Da and also Kyok Too Ki.

As far as I am concerned Muay Thai , San Da, San Shou,
shootboxing, and Kyok Too Ki fighters all deserve equal respect-and should hence respect each other by taking fights in the other fighters' disciplines from time to time. In other words, compromise a bit.

It would make everyone more well rounded as fighters,
and create more fight oportunities for all.


dan

LKF I think the problem with sanda is not its format but the point judging of the techniques , I think often are points given for not a very effective technique like side kick and for some harmless throws, how would be knees and elbows scored in the king of sanda USA?
Not trying to stir something up , just asking.

I can't speak for Chinese judges, they are known to be corrupt, but we only judge/score EFFECTIVE techniques. Side kicks can do a LOT of damage... if you get hit by a good one. My gym, we hit HARD with side kicks. And we follow up off of them...

As for throws, well, that is part of what we do, but the points do reflect the nature of the throw, only 1 point for small throws/trips with upwards of 3 points for a big slam.

Knees are currently worth 2 points to the body, 1 point to the legs. Elbows, like punches are one point.

I can live with that, not bad.

in THEORY, that is how the San Da vs Thai matches were scored, but honestly, I have never seen the score cards, I actually saw one match where I had the Chinese winning and he lost the decision, which is even weirder...

LMFAO, you know, I looked into something, and I found out HOW the San Da vs Muay Thai matches were being scored. I, like most of you, usually score PER ROUND, ie X won 1st and 3rd, Y won 2nd, 4th and 5th, etc etc....

At times I didn't know what the heck those judges were looking at, well, I found out, in sort of a round about way, how they scored it

TOTAL POINTS OVER THE FIVE ROUNDS, so apparently the Chinese strategy was to go hog wild the first round or two, get as many points as possible and sit on them. That would explain why they started so fast, and also perhaps why they always seemed gassed and dead as the rounds went on

Just plain STUPID if you ask me... but then again, right now in Macaus they are cheating everyone from around the world at the amateur championships.

no comments on this, must be a slow day over here :)

I am sleepy as hell, the rules should be easy to see through. Unless the crazy chinese dont get a grip and get the scoring right nobody will give a shit about Sanda. But I see no problem of some other country taking the torch and carrying it further.

Dynamo, we'll see after this weekend's King of San Da USA event, but I have a strong feeling the leading force in San Da is going to be US based after the debacle at the world amateur tournament this weekend, cheating by the Chinese worse than EVER!!!!!!!!

lkfmdc - Good luck to You with the event, let us know how it went plus some pics.

thanks, we'll try and hook up the pics :)

First let me say this and PLEASE READ: I do not mean to disrespect San Shou or Shootfighting or Judo or MMA or anything else involving throwing.

Secondly let me ask this - WHY SHOULD THE FUTURE OF THE "KICKBOXING" SPORTS INCLUDE THROWS????? Isn't it bad enough that there is full contact, and leg kick rules, and modified muay thai, and muay thai? Now we gotta put throws in there? If this is the case then why not go all the way and say that the future of kickboxing is mixed martial arts?

ONce again for those who want to yell at me instead of actually having some sort of intelligent conversation - READ THE FIRST PARAGRAPH!!

Peace and love!

I don't really have the energy to argue, we did a HUGE San Da event this weekend, the open tournament must of had around 60 participants and we did 7 fights in the night show, including a world title between Lebannon and the Republic of Georgia.

Basicly, if you don't like throws, that is your business... no one is going to MAKE you compete this way. But as my FIRST POST SAID, this format under different names IS getting very popular, and at least for Muay Thai people, it is closer to what they do than no clinching, bad circus that the K 1 has become.

I think it's a great sport, fans seem to think it is a great sport, competitors seem to think it's a great sport and it's growing...

If you don't like it, hey, to each their own

If you=Sanda's only hope in the USA, then sanda has no chance of ever becoming viable in the USA.

I guess all my capitals made it look like I'm arguing. It's just discussion I got nothing to argue about. What you said makes sense to me. My opinion is that when you add throwing you kill a lot of the stand up fighting. Also I consider it something different from kickboxing when the goal is to throw. Personally it is not what I like as I like to see punching and kicking and/or kneeing when the fighters are close. To each their own.

Monkey, you can wait until the complete join USKBA and KSD coverage to get the full details, but we did the largest San Da event ever in the history of the sport this weekend, with amazing super fights, and audience response was beyond good, it was "excellent" according to one source present... So have a nice time and I'll get you some more details real soon (rolls eyes)

leg kick, if you watch the event we just did (and we did video all of it) you'll see some hugely action packed matches, kicks, punches, big knees, and aslo some really exciting throws. It is different than MMA because in MMA you often have matches that take place mostly on teh ground. This adds a little of that grappling aspect without slowly the action down in that sense

Hey, finally, bad fights are bad fights no matter what, there are boring THai fights, there are sucky San Da fights, but at good times BOTh can be hugely entertaining...

That first sentence makes no grammatical sense whatsoever. But if you are saying the USKBA is putting this together than Sanda has hope in the USA. Don't roll your eyes at me weirdo, we are not that well acquainted.

Moneky, whoever put a bananna up your butt, all you have to do is ask them to remove it...

From your comments, it is obvious you have seen very little San Shou, and certainly never saw the NYKK team, either that or you are simply trolling? Seems you don't have anything filled out in your profile?

Anyway, have a nice night, I'm sure you can find something to amuse yourself on the internet (rolling eyes)

"Moneky, whoever put a bananna up your butt, all you have to do is ask them to remove it..."

Telling homoerotic statement weirdo. I have seen your boy fight. And I as I said before if you are carrying the banner for Sanda for the USA, Sanda in the USA is doomed. This not a troll statement. This is a statement I believe to be factual.

LMFAO! Yeah, sure, whatever....

Whatever your agenda is, people will begin to see it clearly as you post more silly crap.

If people want to know about San Shou, they only need go to the events, such as the King of San Da USA championships that were just held this weekend. Or, better yet, COMPETE in one of them.

The audience response to the event this weekend was great! People had a great time, the athletes, the coaches and the audience especially.

As for who is a good representation of the sport here in the US, again, GO TO THE EVENTS. I am sure once you do, and educate yourself about the sport, you will learn that the East Coast is very strong, especially Boston San Shou and NYKK. NYKK currently is the largest team with teh most current champions.

Have a nice day

I agree. Go to the King of Sanda to see what you think.

Quick results from the 2003 King of San Da USA North American Championships. Pictures and full coverage coming later this week. The event was completely taped (A and B divisions and Super Fights) and video will be available soon.

Results from Men’s A Division

56 KG (123 lb.)
Yassine, Nidal (Shaolin Club for Martial Arts) (Lebannon) – INJURED, did not compete
Ekawi, Alaadinn (Shaolin Club for Martial Arts) (Lebannon) - UNOPPOSED

60 KG (132 lb.)
Yassin, Younes (Shaolin Club for Martial Arts) (Lebannon)
DEF.
Vasquez, Rafael (Baltimore San Shou)
KO at 1:38 of Round 2

70 KG (154 lb.)
Beauregad, Joshua (NYKK Gym)
DEF.
Wesley, Tyre (Wesley’s San Shou)
Decision in 2 rounds

75 KG (165 lb.)
McClain, Scott (Iron Tigers) – NO SHOW (?)
Gal, Andras (NYKK Gym) – UNOPPOSED

80 KG (176 lb.)
Gully, Christopher (Boston San Shou) – INJURED, did not compete
Ruth, Jeff (One Spirit Martial Arts) – INJURED, did not compete

1st round
Gelfand, Matthew (Chin Wu Kung Fu)
DEF.
Chittenden, Tyson (NYKK Gym)
TKO at 0:35 of Round 2 (Chittenden complained of blurry vision)

2nd round
Ramirez, Raul (Beijing Kung Fu)
DEF.
Gelfand, Matthew (Chin Wu Kung Fu)
Decision in 2 rounds

85 KG (187 lb.)
Council, Richard (Iron Tigers) – UNOPPOSED

Results from Men’s B Division

56 KG (123 lb.)
Ruiz, Eric (Progressive Martial Arts)
DEF.
Damerji, Najib (Shaolin Club for Martial Arts) (Lebannon)
TKO at 0:42 of Round 2

65 KG (143 lb.)
1st Round
Moy, Wai Tai (Hung Sing Choy Lay Fut)
DEF.
Ruiz, Richard (Progressive Martial Arts)
KO at 1:13 of Round 1

2nd Round
Duffin, Douglas (Chan’s Kung Fu)
DEF.
Moy, Wai Tai (Hung Sing Choy Lay Fut)
TKO at 1:35 of Round 1

70 KG (154 lb.)
Seward, Roger (Iron Tigers) – NO SHOW (?)

1st Round
Girard, Eric (USA Kung Fu Academy)
DEF.
DelCastillo, Dan (NYKK Gym)
Decision in 3 rounds

2nd Round
Girard, Eric (USA Kung Fu Academy)
DEF.
Jacobson, Richard (Philly MMA)
Decision

75 KG (165 lb.)
1st Round
Lachaga, Gregory (NYKK Gym)
DEF.
Cheung, Raymond (Hung Sing Choy Lay Fut)
Decision in 2 Rounds

* Lachanga can not continue due to cut above eye
2nd Round
Kyung, Hwasoo (Progressive Martial Arts)
DEF.
Cheung, Raymond (Hung Sing Choy Lay Fut)
TKO at 1:38 of Round 2

80 KG (176 lb.)
Mix, JJ (Fight Gym) – NO SHOW (?)

1st Round
Azevado, Lino (NYKK Gym)
DEF.
Dudney, Ryan (N/A)
KO at 0:55 or Round 1

* Son, Yushin (NYKK Gym) elects not to face team mate in finals. Two gold medals are issued.

85 KG (187 lb.)
1st Round
Cape, Christopher (USA Kung Fu Academy)
DEF.
Murazin, Anvar (Wu Tang PCA)
KO at 1:25 of Round 1

2nd Round
Cape, Christopher (USA Kung Fu Academy)
DEF.
Koeppen, Eric (Baltimore San Shou)
KO at 0:33 of Round 1

OVER 90 KG (199 lb. and over)
1st Round
Dolk, Nathan (7 Lion Kung Fu)
DEF.
Ghazzawi, Tarek (Shaolin Club for Martial Arts) (Lebannon)
Forfeit

Mansour, Hassan
DEF.
Smith, Len (One Spirit Martial Arts)
TKO Round 2 (Smith does not come out for second round)

2nd Round
Mansour, Hassan
DEF.
Dolk, Nathan (7 Lion Kung Fu)
KO at 0:32 of Round 1

Women’s Division

Women’s 52 KG (114 lb.)
Farro, Briana (NYKK Gym) - UNOPPOSED

Women’s 56 KG (123 lb.)
1st Round
Avalos, Norma (NYKK Gym)
DEF.
Hanson, Sarah (Baltimore San Shou)
Decision in 2 rounds

Benitez, Diana (NYKK Gym) elects not to face her team mate in finals. Two gold medals are issued

Women’s 60 KG (132 lb.)
Moore, Alison (NYKK Gym) - UNOPPOSED

Women’s 65 KG (143 lb.)
Zakarian, Tina (Shaolin Club for Martial Arts) (Lebannon) - UNOPPOSED

SUPER FIGHT RESULTS


EXHIBITION MATCH
Ian Morgan (NYKK)
vs.
Rahsaan Kimbrow (Baltimore San Shou)

Brad Burrick (Ronin)
DEF.
Derek Szmyt (Boston San Shou)
Decision

Gina De La Chesnaye (NYKK)
DEF.
Sheila Gallagher (Boston San Shou)
Decision

Junior match
Vladimir Strelnikov (Borodin Muay Thai)
DEF.
Jordon Trujillo (Baltimore San Shou)
TKO (Jordon couldn't continue)

King of San Da: USA Intercontinental Title
Sarah Ponce (Houston San Shou)
DEF.
Chrissy Yandoli (AFC)
Decision

King of San Da: USA WORLD Title
Zurab Besiashvili (Republic of Georgia)
DEF.
Bernard Sfeir (Shaolin) (Lebannon)
TKO Rd 4 (Sfeir could not answer bell for next round)

What's the matter, were you one of the guys who lost? :)