Shame to hear a big show hitting the Wayside! :-( or any?
and I know Muay thai is on the UP and UP 100% But, how many shows
can keep going on?
they are major stressfull ( ask any promoter ) and many think they can jsut do a show coz they think they can?
( many actually have, might i add, and some have failed )
its a thankless task some times!
ive Been promoting since 1984 ( first show i did with master sken in Bolton )
Ive had a share of great shows, average and lost on shows, But over all won!
its a hard slog and feel for anyone whose putting on a show for the first time!
ive helped quite a few up and coming promoters over the years and even ( about 15 years ago ) did a Promoters Must do Checklist Blue print, to share with like minded Promoters to be etc:

Sorry again to anyone whose had to cancel a show, even the best have had to at some time !

Chok-Dee


sandyman

just re read my post and this isnt a dig MORE a Sorry to hear and warning
not a Told You SDo :-( ( coz i never did btw )


sorry if it came across wrong
cheers and again good luck to All promoters... promoters understand !

Which show is cancelled Sandy? As you know i go/support most shows.

It must be very hard organising a show and stressfull i AGREE. But a lot of shows on now,and it must be worthwhile and pretty lucrative? Most tkts are sold between £25 to £40...So if you times that by say 1500 punters it's between £37,500 or £60,000.I don't think somehow its purely down to the love of the sport! Even on smaller shows tkts £20 x 800 punters = £16,000.

£16000?????
- 200 medical team
- 500 small hall
- 600 ring hire
- 100 dj
- 100 mc
- 600 officials (judges/refs)
- 100 trophies
- 20x20= 400 fuel expenses for trainers
- 6x300= 1800 b-class level fighters purses (3fights)
- 6x80= 480 c-class fighters purses (3fights)
- 8x20= 160 n-class fighters purses (4-fights)

Still leaves over £10,000 in the pot...Fair enough, I may have under-estimated some of these, but i must have missed something?

Video/filming costs - 500????
Security - 1000?????
Posters/flyers - 1000??????

How much of the money needs to be paid up-front?

Now international/title fights.... thats where the money gets eaten up.
trainer + fighter (doubling all costs)
flights
hotel
spending money
taxi's
sanctioning fee's

So say half the money is left (£4000)...
How many hours do you think a promoter puts in organising all these things?
From what i can gather from friends that do promote, its alot of phone calls and not as easy as A,B,C. The hourly rate of work comes down to about £5/hr...

Would you risk £16k, family, health etc for £5/hr?

Hats off to promoters!!!!

yeah Noi 10 grand left for after party oowwweee

yeah Noi 10 grand left for after party oowwweee

hey rich can i have the number of that medical please lol !!!!!

and mr chalky white your more than welcome to co-promote my next lucrative venture ...... if only things were so black and white

LOL love the attendance figures of 800 - 2,000. We can only wish in kickboxing!

As a new promoter for kickboxing events I'd just pick up on the first couple of lines regarding costs - £200 for medical team and £500 for venue. OK we had a trauma doctor ,ambulance and two technicians for safety but they cost us £800 and the venue £2,300 with a fire capaity of just 1100. I could go on but the point is please dont assume your promoters are making a fortune guys.

I was trying to bat a few figures together and see how it broke-down.
I guessed at that £200 for the medical team from the St Johns who did an interclub a while ago, albeit just 2 technicians.... that wasnt doctor/ambulance/trauma team....

Lets say £2.20/hr for a £16,000 outlay....

Again, another hearty pat on the back of promoters!!!! :)

Cut the costs have a show in a park use ur coats as a ring and the ice cream van as an ambulace, easy peasy....

Anyone see Danny Dyers dangerous men the other night on Bravo?
Pikeys are allowed to have bare-knuckle fights at Pikey horse fairs....Police turn a blind-eye as its pike business.
Hows that for you Foggy?

Well thank you for the pat on the back Mr Cadden. Now how can I become a Pikey to get my costs down? If its good enough for Danny Dyers ...

Thats good enuff for me rich, but i would preffer it if they wear hand wraps, lol

1500 paying punters I like that idea.

Promoting is one of those things, alongside actually fighting in the ring, it should be talked about it by people who have done it.

the rest should should just keep your mouth shut as believe me, you have no idea!!!!!!!!!

Well said daz if it was that easy everybody and there dog would put them on, people dont understand the time that is put into shows..

it seems to me that everyman and his dog do put shows on,im glad most promoters do thou

Rumble at the Reebok ... now there's a good example of one of you Thai guys promoting on the cheap and cutting costs just to make profit?

Oh no, that was the awesome show with the wicked fight card, expensive line up, nice venue, dancing girls, video screens, pyrotechnics and all the razzamataz. I can only assume that the money grabbing promoter just threw them in for fun and absorbed the cost himself/theselves.

Yep, plenty of reward potential in promoting but to put a show on like that you need heaps of confidence and massive balls. All due respect.

Sorry i touched a raw nerve with a few,Did'nt mean too.But if was'nt a earner why would you bother? It's got to pay off?

Daz M,Your Rumble at the Reebok was ACE!! and a BIG outlay for sure.I would co-promote your next show but i'd have to sell my 10 year old car to finance it.....so there's a £600 LOL ;-)

White Wolf The attendancies are pretty good at Thai shows,Ask Daz M,Sandy etc how many attended the shows?

Foggy,You know me well i'm thick but informative. LOL. ;-)

Dazza P,Yeah,Yeah...ok i know i have'nt been in the ring(only interclubs)but i did start a tad late in life but can hold my own for a old man,At least give me that! And from your response i don't think you want me at your show on Sunday? even though i was looking forward to coming!

If people have taken this all the wrong way then SORRY.I just think money has got to be made or there would'nt be any shows?

hi and wow this opened up lol

and
1 chalky
Not So Lucative pal
and most shows are $15 and £20 and you lose About £5 gym ticket commission and No ones even mentioned Time and Taxmnan

chalky writes:

Which show is cancelled Sandy? As you know i go/support most shows.

It must be very hard organising a show and stressfull i AGREE. But a lot of shows on now,and it must be worthwhile and pretty lucrative? Most tkts are sold between £25 to £40...



"can be those prices but on Masshoof and Justified Shows, how much is the Dead wood Boxing charge?
and the MMA scene?
More than us and Defo not any bette than our shows / us for sure.


2.
Lol at Rich Caddens prices
Noi i will have your prices lol
it cost me nearly £500 alone for Paramedics and Doc on each of my Shows and Worth every penny

and £100 trophies MIGHT buy you half if your lucky lol


noi move into the 21st century man

I should show everyone the Town Hall budget sometime it would scare people.

There are more promoters springing up lately with some bigger budgets and good shows. This reflects the rise in quality in the sport with better fighters, judging and standards accross the board.

It's Market forces. The stronger ones will be able to put on better showswith bigger budgets and attract the better fighters, some will overstep the mark and lose money and fall by the wayside and some will get left behind.

All good for the sport in my view.

ha ha chalky got ya foot in it again !!!

my desicion to put rumble at the reebok was based on a solid business model and some brilliant help from dazza phillips, sandy holt, dave croft, dan green, sue taylor, and paul hamleton plus many others ...... but it was profitable i would be a liar to say it wasn't, but profit wasn't the basis of the concept, provding it broke even, it was to raise the profile of muaythai in the uk and i feel it did wat i set out to do.

now chalky lets talk about co-promoting after my "ulitmate lads night" which i recall you were moaning about as well !! i have something on the boil much bigger the reebok so if ya get ya 2's and 1's out we can chat !! i need a car park attendant !

offical capacity by the way was 1826 !! but it could of been 1827 if ya count chalky's spilt personality lol

I see what you say Mr Smith. Big budgets will always attract the big names.
Now with regard to smaller shows. Some smaller shows are very good and have electric atmosphere as well as having high standard of judging and accurate matchmaking.
Once again you state market forces. It is all about demand and supply. Now if the smaller shows havent got the financial backing and sponsorship that the larger shows have then they have got to have something else to offer.

Namely the main things the smaller shows need to keep up are:
1.Well organised
2.Fair judging using correct criteria for the discipline and unbiased judges.
3.Careful and fair matchmaking.
4.Sanctioned by a decent body and done safely with the safety and well being of fighters being paramount.

The razmatazz and all the glamour and glitz of a larger show is a bonus.

The best thing about things are that now there are more shows, different clubs and fighters have more shows to choose from.
These days, any promoter who mismatches/mistreats a particular camp could end up losing valuable support.

More shows= the promoters will work harder to keep their custom= in the long run the bar increases.

lol Daz
and
True mr Philips true


dazzathethai writes:

1500 paying punters I like that idea.

Promoting is one of those things, alongside actually fighting in the ring, it should be talked about it by people who have done it.

the rest should should just keep your mouth shut as believe me, you have no idea!!!!!!!!!

and Wise Words mr Smith :-) wise


It's Market forces. The stronger ones will be able to put on better showswith bigger budgets and attract the better fighters, some will overstep the mark and lose money and fall by the wayside and some will get left behind.

All good for the sport in my view.

Thanks Mr Smith a decent answer and understandable.
Ok guys it's all about opinions? I bow to your knowledge and i understand the concept.
Sandy points taken,Taxman,Did'nt know you had to declare it ;-)

Daz m,Car park attendant? come on i could sell programs instead? Well both of us could....there are 2 of me. ;-)

Mmmmh...... Too many nightmares late nights last minutes and general variables to even starting to contemplate a post on this thread!!

My comments weren't aimed at you in particular Chalky, it just riles me when anyone who has not promoted, starts making stupid guesses about how many people are in a show, how much it costs to do, etc etc.

A littl ebit like when people who have never ben in the ring start telling people what they should and shouldn't have done, or slate people for a sub standard performance.

They have no what it's like so should keep their mouths shut.

I can't weld, I wouldn't express my oponion on any welding job, I can't plaster, I wouldn't espress my oponion on a plastering job

If you don't come to the show then I will hunt you down and cut your ears off so I can finaly decide if yours or andy's are the biggest

ha ha daz i like it i lone you a blunt knife to do it with for added effect !

Dazzthai

"alongside actually fighting in the ring, it should be talked about it by people who have done it."

Are you actually suggesting that people who have never had a fight should have no opinion or talk about the sport they follow? That's an absurd notion if that's the case and one I have only ever come across in Muay Thai. In Boxing and MMA this attitude seems far less prevelant. It's this closed shop mentality that's probably one of the many reasons why MMA has outstripped MT in popularity so quickly, it's more welcoming to the average fan/newcomer and their opinions.

I'm sure Angelo Dundee never had any fights, shouldn't he talk about Boxing?

Apologies if I've misconstrued what you've said, it's just a bug bear of mine that your opinion is deemed worhtless unless you've been in the ring (which I have on a few occassion, albeit a fair while ago and not many times).

daz i will pay u to use a spoon instead lol,
Think chalkys ears look bigger cause he has no hair( only jokin chalky)

I'm not suggsting they have no oponion. Fair does people will pass comment and they have a right to.

What riles me is the people who sit in thir armcahris or wherever telling everyone what we should do, where we've all gone wrong etc when they really have no idea at all.

People having a go at fighters when they've never been in the ring is a no no to me.

And people sitting counting heads, coming up with a ridculous figure of paying customers, guessing (inaccuratley) how much everything costs and coming with outrageous profit margins for shows, when people have no idea about the amount of work that goes into them.

I make you right on the promoting side of things. That's a different kettle of fish.

Whilst I agree 'fighter bashing' is out of order, especially from someone who has no idea what's involed. I think it's good for any sport to have fans who have passionate opinions and vocally air them. Any sport without a legion of armchair experts isn't a successful one IMO.

As I said before, I've defintiely come across this 'closed shop' mentality in Muay Thai more than any other sport. Why do you think this is; or do you disagree with that statement entirely?

Well you'd need a big Mick Dundee knife or a big wooden spoon for these ears Dazza.HA HA and Andy's are defo bigger!! LOL.

Ok,Done plenty of texting today too as the comments seemed to be aimed at me personally.It is simple maths that come up with the "inflated" figure.
It must be worth putting shows on though.....same with interclubs?

I also agree with Andy C that in M.T your not deemed worthy of an opinion if you have'nt fought,or trained for such a gym....blah...blah
The closed shop mentality will always hold it back.It's like saying to 45,000 football fans you can't have or be allowed an opinion because you've not played football! wtf? Sport in general becomes more popular to the paying public if you allow them to partake in the whole picture.

Right i'm off back in my armchair before i have to take my medication for both of us ;-)

Chalks thanks firstly for yout text ( did you get my reply? )
and me and the 2 Dazs ( like the 2 Ronnies, but fitter ) wasnt having a pop totally at you
read all above and my text reply
but as a punter and a participant you have say of course
but can i ask?
and re: your post....


Chalky writes...
Ok,Done plenty of texting today too as the comments seemed to be aimed at me personally.It is simple maths that come up with the "inflated" figure.
It must be worth putting shows on though.....same with interclubs?





do you go to work ( welding? soz dunno exactly what ya do soz ? )
for Nothing?
if you stay a few hours longer?
do you get Overtime ? / paid? "yes"

we dont :-(
If you go to work and theses nowt to do do you get paid?
"Yes you do" you went into work !

do we ( us promoters ) go to a show after months of hard work and "overtime"
and get there and its err Not full and we made a loss, or not enough in to make a reasonmable profit for all the time lost promoting and sometimes do and sometimes dont and the thankless task sometimes also. :-(
do we ask you and the `other good people` to give us another £2/3/4/5 on ya ticket?
coz we didnt get paid nor for our overtime? coz it wasnt profitable ?
Its a gamble not a gurantee
hope this makes sense as it is that..." Sense "

chokdee Chalks
keep smiling, keep training and keep supporting! :-))

All sorted.
Gob shut. Thanks guys.

Yes,paid overtime to answer this question.But i have to have a job same as you run gym as yours.

Of course promoting is finacially profitable otherwise it wouldn't be worth doing and there wouldn't be half as many shows. However the profit for the amount of work is relatively small and there is always the potential for loss unless you really know what you are doing

However the motivation for promoting is rarely purly about profit that's why up to now most promoters are gym owners. A show promotes the gym and your fighters and hopefully the sport in your area.

What we need is more promoters who are just in it for the profit because that means that there is more money in the sport. Like it or not this is a professonal sport. It's allabout making money in Thailand just like pro boxing or football over here. Without more money involved the sport will never go forward especially if it is being run by amateurs who do it for the love of the sport.

People need to work out what they want.

Thanks Mr Smith a honest and intelligent answer,Which i fully understand and respect.
Txt'd Daz P and Sandy over the weekend,as i have trained and know both of them.
Gob shut now and to respect my gym and trainer now as he works with you all.

Absolute top post from Mr Smith. I dont even need to emphasise the point.
You either get it or you don't!

quality posts

I think Richard smith hit the nail on the head. I am about to promote my first novice show August 30th Marton Hotel and country Club Middlesbrough. This will be the first time ever Muay Thai show on Middlesbrough. Its not about the money its more about getting my lads to fight in their home town with all their friends to support and to promote the club and what we do.

I do expect to make a profit but this is a novice show with North East fighters on the card, max 450 crowd and the costs are not massive because theirs no big purse to pay out.

The Town Hall and Rumble at the Reebok are totally different animals. (As are most of the large shows with the top names fighting on them)

I am stressed already and we are moving to our new gym glutten for punishment or what.

lol, sorry Dazza, got to comment on the plastering thing. I'm not a plasterer, but i do all my own plastering because you want to see what a shite job a lot of plasterers do. And not being a plasterer, i still know a shite plastering job when i see one :-)

lol and what would a Good plasterer say about your plastering? :-p



and Dave Mc lol bless ya pal
and hope Both go well double stress fella !

Profit, albeit minimal, is a by product of promoting events - my main reason for promoting is it has been hard to match some of our fighters, and having your own event allows you to guarantee that your fighters will get to compete, particulalry as some fighters are in niche/ ranked positions - found it really hard to match hilary (world no.3), jojo (uk no.2), jordan (still 15, but currently unstoppable...), so we have had to look to Europe for opponents. In my mind though, a good event and good team performance is advertising that cannot be matched, both for the sport and the gym. If you make that shift in terminology, all of a sudden your advertising budget just went into the black! (not many businesses achieving that).
Other considerations for promoting include geographical isolation - I understand that a scottish fighter isn't going to sell a shedload of tix on a southern show, therefore there is little incentive for a promoter to invite us down south unless it is for a very specific match up, e.g. a title, or v. a local strong ticket seller, for that reason alone I am quite happy there is a bandwagon of shows..the growth in events up here has been exponential in the last few years, allowing fighters to gain much more experience in a shorter time that isn't dependent on the M6!

many reasons to promote
many risks
but many good end results from them
outweigh the bad and the risk factor imo