What difines a good fighter?

E.g. Keiran Keddle is always out there fighting in various countries and shows but loses nearly has many fights as he wins. Does this mean he's a good fighter or an active fighter?

Then you may get someone else like say Liam Harrisson who doesn't fight as often but wins more often does this make him a good fighter? or in the publics eyes does this make him not as good as Kieran because he doesn't fight as much.

I just used these 2 guys as examples because they are well known. My opinion is this. The facts say Kieran isn't as good as the public think he his but because he's always active people get the impression he's the best around which doesn't seem to be the case does it?

And Liam looks like an up and coming fighter just because he doesn't fight as often but in reality is probably the best one out there at that weight

If a pro boxer at the top of his game fought 30 times and lost 13 he'd be seen as a nearly man or journey man. Surely to be classed as good you should be winning 95% of the time and not be classed as good because you'll fight anybody every week

Ive probably started a war of words here which I didn't intend to. back to the original question. What makes a good fighter? Activeness? Success? Countries he/she has fought in ?

A few losses on your record in Muay Thai doent matter. In our game its more honest than boxing. The best fight the best. In boxing they avoid one another and pad out their records with easy opponents.

It doesnt depend how often you fight or how often you win - it depends who you fight and how you compare to them. Kieren is still learning and is up and coming too. He regularly tests himself against the best and even if he loses he always gives a good fight and its close, so in my book that makes him a good fighter.

Liam is a young guy who has just started climbing up the ladder. He had 4 fights last year, 4 wins, 3 KOs and has already had 2 this year (both wins)with 3 more already in the pipeline - June 6, August 26 and October 10, so you cant say he doesnt fight very often.

I would say that a good fighter should be judged on consistency and on who he/she fights and how he/she measures up to the calibre of opponent, not on titles or even wins. There are too many variables in this game to win every fight. Look at K-1 where the best fight the best and there will be a different result each time the same fighters meet.

I would say that quality of opponents counts for a lot.

A boxer with a 95% success rate is probably fighting 90% of those fights against bums! In Thai boxing that doesnt happen because we dont have the money to throw at bums.

Kieran may be losing a good percentage of his fights at the moment because he is striving for something that is maybe just out of his reach, but unless he tries he will never get there and the experience he is collecting on his journey is invaluable.

Liam is young and talented and Richard is being optimist yet cautious with him so he is taking big fights but not too many. Liam may soon get to the point where he too is striving for something seemingly out of his reach.

Only time will tell if the two boys will reach their goals but I for one hope and think they both will!

Richards post wasnt there when I typed mine!

ok
1. If you Lose 15 Fight ? outa 15 ? to Normal Fighters?
your Good or bad ?
2. if you lose 15 Fights outa 15 to "Quality" Opponents!
your Good or Bad ?
3. if you lose 15 Fights outa 15 to a Mix of Good and Bad Opponents
your Good or bad ?


Bottom Line is














A)Either Sort your training out ? / Style /way etc:
B) Change Gyms ?
C) "Stop" Fighting ?
D)One more ? and then give up if ya lose ?

Point is ?
I Dont Neccesarily agree a Few Losses on your record "Dont Matter" ?
Doesnt if youve had like the Thai's `150` Fights
100 wins 45 Loss 5 Draws
100 Wins Etc: is a 66.6+ & Win Ratio

if youve Lost Half ? 50 % Good and bad / losses
As i name them
Hot and cold Fighters !

If youve lost `over` 2/3rds ?
I think there are Issues need sorting !


Objesct in our and Every Sport is to Simply

"Win"

Sandy Holt writes:

ok
1. If you Lose 15 Fight ? outa 15 ? to Normal Fighters?
your Good or bad ?
2. if you lose 15 Fights outa 15 to "Quality" Opponents!
your Good or Bad ?
3. if you lose 15 Fights outa 15 to a Mix of Good and Bad Opponents
your Good or bad ?


These are very good questions Mr H. I do agree with Dave that maybe Kieran is striving for something just out of reach!! Maybe as you say Sandy is Training/Managemet is asking too much of him.

Richard I think Liam is the best at that weight and has been for a while. I quoted him not fighting often but I didn't write what I was thinking I meant in comparison to Keiran.

I agree with Sandy/Oscar Holt one aim TO WIN!!

"what makes a good fighter?"

heart.. you have to be able to shake off hard blows, and keep coming back.
quality/ consistency of the fighters you're fighting.
respect. i think most fighters have to feel respected. if you have all the mental and physical pressures of training, and you get disrespected, then won't you question the reason you keep coming back? and why they give you shots in the first place? add physical mental pressures to that, i think you have sort of a time bomb. i don't know of many people that could last long like that.
good trainer-- good trainer not only knows the game, but knows what pace/ level he can push his fighters at/ to.
i think a record has something to do with it, if the uneducated fans look at the record, that's mostly all they know about a fighter, and they'll think that's how you measure a good fighter. but if the fans know the game, the fighters background/ history, or if the fan's another fighter, they'll know whether or not he's any good.
i don't think wins on records should be the issue. i think it's how bad you want to win. what you'll do. right time, right place, right combination, any body can win. like the movie says, "any given sunday...."

im a bit lost hear as im thinking along the line of been a fan of the sport
& that is win, loss or draw the fighter never gives up in the ring & what ever the out come he dosent get the shits what ever the out come win loss or draw there is alway a rematch waiting some time down the track & he takes the time out with other fighter & fans of the sport
even if its for a 5 min chat,photo or even sign some thing
i cant stand someone that gets the shits over a fight been stop for there own safty or a cut is just to deap to go on & they start to go on that its unfair
or when you walk past a fighter that isnt fighting the night of a show & you try to have a quick chat to see whats coming up for them & the just keep walking been a real rude prick !!!
ive had fighter about to go out for a fight tryen to warm up & they have had a quick chat with me even asked if i wanted a photo with them :)
so thats my point on a good fighter the ones that take ever thing on the chin & make time for others around the sport
cheers scotty

i see Your Points Scotty,
These are the `Good Sportsmen` and Sometimes / Rarely the Not so good ones in our Game.
But I think Mr Rich is Pursueing the Angle of a Certain Calibre Of Fighters
Being @ or around the Top in their Country! And Not Always because of their Records ? But because of Management/ Fans Puting them up there etc:

Is that Right MrRich ?

some good points

quality of opponents and how you stand with them means much much more than record

It is Oscar Holt! Many fans seem to idolise Keiran and use him as a bench mark. But a bench mark for what? In is fights he's nothing more than OK everytime Ive seen him except when he fought Warren Brown in Deeside a few years ago. I'd say is record and performances would be an advert of what not to do..anyone agree?

I'm using Keiran as an example because he's he most well kown not because I have an ax to grind with anyone. His he as good as people make him out to be and maybe he believes to be? Or, is he just a game fighter?

Answers please

please, Sandy McOscar-de-la-Pressups ( new Nickname ) lol

No Takers?

There is a lot of talk about what makes a good fighter (as an individual), but at this level of fighting (using the 2 examples) we are talking more about the management teams, and choosing the RIGHT fight.
OK, there are several variables for an individual while in the ring, but each fighters trainers know what these guys want out of the sport.
If it is to simply fight hard fights often, irrespective of results.... OK,... this can be arranged.If you keep throwing someone in at the top level they are gonna learn to either sink or swim. Sometimes win, sometimes lose.
If he wants to compete and grow between fights, time has to be allocated to allow this growth.....and is hence correctly managed to achieve his personal goals.

I dont think number/regularity of fights makes a better or worse fighter,merely different, and that is what makes competitions so intense and exciting.

The personal facets to a fighters personality are obviously what are gonna make him the fighter he is:... such as courage, tenacity, determination, respect, learning skills, stamina, durability and fitness.
Overall both physical and mental prowess.

I havent written on AX for a while because every topic seems to end with individuals slagging each other off.

What people must understand is the level of opponents i have been fighting over the last few years - they have all been different (Faldir Chahbari -World and Dutch Champion , Worawut - over 100 fights and has beaten Raj champ only a year before) etc etc. Even though i have lost my record still stands as 51f with 12 losses and 2 draws - which considering the class of opponents i have fought isnt bad.

I have learnt from losses just as much as a win and i do know that i can blow hot and cold. I am living in Thailand from August and will try to fight as reguarly as fighting every 2 week (pending on injury etc etc).

I am never one to back down from a challenge as you can see i am fighting Sandej Sassipra on June 6th in Plymouth. I seem to be the only one accepting these challenges - why fight a nobody and look good? i want to be the best and i can only do that by fighting the best.

As for Liam - it is a different scenerio he is only 18 and i am 23 and he will be a massive star in the future probably the biggest in the UK.

Anyway when was i used as a benchmark???

And how many fights have you actually seen Nigel? i cant remember you sitting at Lumpinee Stadium last year? or on my flight to Italy , Holland or France.

My theory is to fight as much as possible you probably wont see me mature until i have had 80-100 fights just like Thais.

I think Mr N Rich was just using your name as an example.... Nothing personal, (I doubt)..... Its just that everyone knows "Kieran The Boy" and "Liam The Hitman" as the sports personalities of MT.
Try and see what he is trying to say from an objective point, as opposed to being on a personal level.
Dont like to see top guys getting slagged on the t'internet!!!!!

smile and chat guys!

Kieran. Glad to see you actually come on and say your piece.I like that. I'm not slagging you off in anyway. I agree to be the best you need to beat the best but do you think you are fighting the best at the wrong time of your career? i.e. There is better to come from you in the future and when you are wiser and a bit older?

The hot and cold you put forward. Is this because sometimes you don't feel fresh? and maybe you would get better from yourself with fewer fights say quality not quantity.

I agree that i probably wont be at my best until im 26ish years old - but i like to rack up my experience as much as i can if you look at my record and say times it by three (153f 33l 6d) it doesnt look so bad now does it. I know that when i am at that age and in a big fight my experience will show. I am still learning some people develop quicker than others - my time will come.

I just personally believe that in the long run having lots of fights when you are young and capable enough to work through injuries and of course recover quicker you may as well take a fight offer. It also looks good on a CV saying that you have shared the ring with this fighter and that fighter.

Muay Thai is not like boxing - proffessional Thais have so many fights in there career that there will be losses on the way and it isnt frowned apon as much if you have several defeats.

And of course i just like to fight!

Mr N Rich writes:
I agree to be the best you need to beat the best but do you think you are fighting the best at the wrong time of your career? i.e. There is better to come from you in the future and when you are wiser and a bit older?

.....................

Disagree, even when ive seen Kieren lose he has not been lost "badly" in any, just perhaps didnt have enough on that given day or at this given time but will have learn plenty from the quality ring time.

If he is doing ok in these fights now why should he wait until he is a bit older? he is improving mentally and technically after every fight without ever being disgraced or beaten but continues to fight with composure.

Fair point Steve.

Keiran thanks for the replies and I wish you luck in the future. Is this the first thread that hasn't ended in a slanging match on Ax haha

COnstructive ! All Good Chaps A spanner in the Works though !
I agree with this Do as Much as poss: ( i did When i was Fighting )
But instead of Happy to Cruise type of Way and Fight ?
Hows about that "bang"
Smash
Wallop and Win Attitude, Ferocity and that Special `Je-Ne-Se-Quar`
Spelt wrong im well Betting LoL

But do you know what i mean ?
That `Explosive` Im only in here ( the Ring ) for 10 or 15 mins "Max" !
B / A Class Muay-Thai-Boxing Fight `Real` time !

Just a Small Spanner in there L0L

so in other words:-
Im Gonna Win and If Not ??
Im Gonna Look Good trying and Give it 100% too( Attitude )
:-)

I have to agree with Oscar McGuigan

hahahahaahahahaahahahahahahaha
LOL ROFLMHO

Nearly as many Names as Mr Rich has Houses ! LoL

I've just bought a massive council house!! Buckingham Palace haha

I'm renaming it to Oscar towers

the important thing is :

ok ill agree that kierans fights are not always the most exciting, well i havent seen all of them but from what ive seen BUT some are absolute wars! like hgis war with frankie

BUT who cares ,... the important thing is kieran is getting in there and hes having fight after fight after fight while most ppl are just talking about it

when kieran retires he can say ive fought such and such and such and such and such and such
its all part of a martial artists jouirney thru his specific art
doesnt matter if you lsoe just keep fighting!!!

Good Post Farhad, You will be out avin a Lemonade with the Kiddles if ya Keep Going ! :-p
And
I agree "up" to the last point whereby
you Say:-

`doesnt matter if you lsoe just keep fighting`!!!

Point is:- we / you is in it to Win it Though !

But the Rest of what you say ic Correct !
Your Right !!!
:-)

Mr N. Rich

“The facts say Kieran isn't as good as the public think he his but because he's always active people get the impression he's the best around which doesn't seem to be the case does it?”

I would like to point out that Ramon Dekkers finished his career with around 200 fights including about 40 losses (including losses against Sakmongkol, Danny Bille, Orono, Ryan Simson etc.). No one seems to be suggesting Dekkers was not a great fighter, or perhaps they are. In Thai boxing, as far as I can tell, only liars have records of over 100 fights with no losses.
If Kieran continues to add to his own fight record as he is doing, he will finish with a very similar record. I know there is a long way to go for “The Boy”, yet he seems to be heading in the right direction to me and does not deserve this criticism.
For me a great fighter is one who continually puts himself against the best people around with no fear of failure just a desire to compete at the highest level while pushing themselves to their own personal limits.
Chris Carley

Good posts, I think people find it easy to criticize Kieran because he is, as far as Muay Thai in this country is concerned, high profile, and the only reason for that is that he consistently fighting high quality opposition and conducting himself like a gentleman and ambassador for the sport inside and outside the ring. I for one certainley look forward to seeing him fight for many years to come fighting better and stronger opponents.

It's not a personal critism of Kieran it was an example of a well known fighter.

Chris I like the bit that said people with 100 fights plus with no losses are liars hahaha

Heart. Technique. Fitness.

Fitness is easiest, technique just takes more time and heart - you have to be born with.

Kieran has heart.

Self discipline must be one of the main chracteristics ???

With all the temptations of modern life, drinking, smoking, diet (eating a lot) etc), abstaining from all of these for long periods of time is hard.

I know it was for me, hence the reasons I only had a few amatuer fights!

I trained when I was 16 for two years with the Bulldog gym in London and then at 18 started clubbing etc and lost interest in the training side of things still went to the odd show). Started again when I was 29 at KO gym, trained like mad for two years and then drifted back into my old habits.


That could be just me, anyone else have a problem with that side of things??

"heart-you have to be born with it"

I disagree. I think many things can make up mental toughness. I also think that he can be learned and you can train for it just like anything else.

I think skill and natural ability are seperate.

Anatomy and natural ability are all you are born with I think.

Mr N Rich-I think all wins no losses can be two things. 1-BS 2-not fighting your level or a higher level. Since no one is the best, not fighting the best.

Good call Mark.
The "heart" is the tenacity to stay in the fight and keep going.... which inadvertantly comes down to confidence in ability. You will see the least confident people come in to the gym and after a few months have the confidence to "bring it to the table".... this is defined as "situational confidence", when you are in the zone, and nothing can upset you.
You are totally in control.
However, get out of that situation, you will see these "situational confident" people revert to type.

mental toughening can come from mental stress AND recouvery, just like physical and emotional I think...

but your right about confidance too...

theres a quote that I wish I could remember for sure but to parafrase

'Fatigue makes cowards of us all.'

Not totally related but it hints at links between physical and mental

cowards is a bit harsh..... quitters maybe!!!! LOL :)

good points Mark and noi!its all down to mental strength in my opinion and this is something you can work on!

'For me a great fighter is one who continually puts himself against the best people around with no fear of failure just a desire to compete at the highest level while pushing themselves to their own personal limits' great post Chris!

Tenacity will beat talent,grit and intelligence too.

Ki 'The Boy'had an awesome fight against Sandej on 6.6.4. Given a draw but it does not matter it was an brilliant display by to 'Great Fighters'
Chris 'Keddle' Carley

Ki 'The Boy'had an awesome fight against Sandej on 6.6.4. Given a draw but it does not matter it was an brilliant display by 2 'Great Fighters'.
Sorry about the correction!
Chris 'Keddle' Carley

Kieran would not have fought this well without using all his past fight experience, be it a win lose or draw.

So in answer to the question - Experience, and the abilty to apply what you have learned are key to being a great fighter.