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Topic:Ram-muay-thai ? Western Thoughts?
Sandy Holt
Posted: 2004-07-02 23:00:19
Ram-Muay-Thai ? Western Thoughts?
What are your Thoughts About A)
Doing the Ram-Muay?
B) When ? if you do ? Or Have Done a Ram-Muay-Thai ( Ritual Pre-Fight Dance )What Goes Through your Mind?
Khun Kao
Posted: 2004-07-02 23:07:08

Khun Kao
Posted: 2004-07-02 23:07:40

Sandy Holt
Posted: 2004-07-02 23:08:29
wow `Khun STar-Brooking` ! `Tharrrt a Big lad Lol`
Stop Doing a me !
( i used to post em Big too lol )
Khun Kao
Posted: 2004-07-02 23:09:25

Sandy Holt
Posted: 2004-07-02 23:09:41
I Always Did a Ram Muay in Every Single of all my `21` Fights !
And All my Fighters have Always done the same ! Throughout the Years !
Khun Kao
Posted: 2004-07-02 23:09:44

Khun Kao
Posted: 2004-07-02 23:10:00

Khun Kao
Posted: 2004-07-02 23:10:29

Sandy Holt
Posted: 2004-07-02 23:12:25

Heres My last But one Champion Andy Ginger Ninja Morris Pre-Fight Dance !
Khun Kao
Posted: 2004-07-02 23:13:43
There have only been 2 occassions where I did not perform a Ram Muay, but that was b/c they were not Muay Thai matches.....

I currently know/practice 5 different Ram Muays.... but one of them is kind of a "spoof" Ram Muay....

Well, not really a spoof, but it was a Ram Muay performed by some fighters during the 60's and 70's that reflected the drug culture of the time. I learned the Ram Muay, but rarely practice or demonstrate it because I don't feel its respectful. (But it is funny as fuck!)
Sandy Holt
Posted: 2004-07-02 23:16:03
Thoughts of a Fighter @ this Stage !?
Interesting what Goes on about this time !!!!!!!!!!!!
Khun Kao
Posted: 2004-07-02 23:16:47
Shame I don't know how to post video... one of my friends recorded my Ram Muay during my last title fight and had posted it on the internet....

Sandy Holt
Posted: 2004-07-02 23:18:11
Ask some Internet Gekys?;-p
Someone Could Download a short Clip for ya Im Sure ???
The mad One you on about?
Sandy Holt
Posted: 2004-07-02 23:18:31
Khun Kao
Posted: 2004-07-02 23:19:41

This is a link to my Ram Muay during my title fight (broken into 5 segments....)
Khun Kao
Posted: 2004-07-02 23:25:59

Khun Kao
Posted: 2004-07-02 23:26:58

Khun Kao
Posted: 2004-07-02 23:29:31

Khun Kao
Posted: 2004-07-02 23:29:49

Khun Kao
Posted: 2004-07-02 23:30:20

Sandy Holt
Posted: 2004-07-02 23:31:15
The Colour Pics a good One ! Good Concentration !!!
Khun Kao
Posted: 2004-07-02 23:33:05
Didja watch the videos? LOL
Khun Kao
Posted: 2004-07-02 23:44:02
But to answer the original questions.....

A. I believe that to truly be fighting Muay Thai, you should perform a Ram Muay.

B. I try to focus on the task at hand. I try to focus by thinking of all the people, and the gym, that I represent when I step into the ring. I try to remind myself that I am not just in there fighting for myself, but I am fighting for everyone that has assisted and/or supported me in my preparation, including family members past and present.
Posted: 2004-07-03 03:36:00
Khun Kao writes:

I try to remind myself that I am not just in there fighting for myself, but I am fighting for everyone that has assisted and/or supported me in my preparation, including family members past and present.
I really like that!! being self centered just puts undue pressure on one's self.
ercan gürgöze
Posted: 2004-07-03 04:52:21
i think that "it is proportional to the character and the belief of every single fighter.." some like it ,some not...

in amateur section ,it is a must non-amateur (i cannot say profi since most of the fighters are not surviving themselves only with the money from the fights) it seems that it depends on the character so that they like it or not...the proof is that some not doing it, some a little (just showing some characters) and some in exchagerated long appereance...for a person who do not like any ceronomies ,it is a torture ,sure ...from this point of view ,i believe that people would not be forced to do it...
however, it is a good concentration and stretching /preparation concept...but, in order to understand it , fighter has to understand very well what it is ...and for most of westener people it will be always a hard concept to go deep in it,even they have thai trainers ...
Sandy Holt
Posted: 2004-07-03 09:01:06
A Lot Depends on your Background really !
Who Trained you? / us?
if They Did the Ram-Muay? you will probably be passed down to do it !
Sandy Holt
Posted: 2004-07-03 12:28:37
i Call It the-
"Calm Before the Storm"
Posted: 2004-07-03 23:32:14

This one's for 100,000 Baht!!
Kedric "Wolf" Umaa
Posted: 2004-07-04 12:31:24
I have only performed my Ram Muay twice. That is because no one ever allows me to do it.

The first time I did it, I did it in spite of not being allowed, and was interrupted halfway into it and told to stand up.

The second time I did it, I was allowed to, so I did. But, other than that, they specifically tell all fighters that we are not allowed to do our Ram Muay.

As to what I think when I'm doing it, I think about my training. I think about the fact that I train with a world champion, and spar with a world champion, and no one I face in the ring at this stage can be even remotely as much of a challenge as him, nor bring to the fight what I endure in training every single day.
Sandy Holt
Posted: 2004-07-04 13:22:37
Who tells yopu CANNOt do it ?
Why the hell not ! tell em this !
if you Dont allow me to ?
I wont fight ?
Its `Part and parcel` Of Muay-Thai
I Eevn did a Ram-Muay- once when i HAD to Fight F.C Rules and in Thai Shorts and Anklets and Mongkon etc: and Then Added the "MoonBotts" After to Fight in Lol
But No Way would i have Fought Unless they allowed me to Do it !

It Is The- "pre-Fight-Ritual Dance"

Simple as that !!!!!!!!!!
Khun Kao
Posted: 2004-07-04 13:23:09
Not allowed?!?!? Why is that??? The only time I've not been allowed was when I experimented with Full Contact kickboxing. But I've always been allowed, even ENCOURAGED, to do so in Muay Thai events...

Sandy Holt
Posted: 2004-07-04 13:23:24
Spel Lol
Posted: 2004-07-04 14:40:55
Ram muay,a budhist ceremony performed by buddhists in asean countrys,Ram muay people whoe are more interested in the mistique and (nice shorts of muay thai) normaly under "master santawoy" hold on i ram muay what am i going on about,have the dutch got it right,no ram muay,better fighters ordo we go the thai copycat route? id go for the win any time
Sandy Holt
Posted: 2004-07-04 20:19:14

Sandy Holt
Posted: 2004-07-04 20:19:38

Sandy Holt
Posted: 2004-07-04 21:45:24

Sandy Holt
Posted: 2004-07-04 21:45:58
Jussy Lowe in her International Bout V France
Posted: 2004-07-04 22:58:12
I may be wrong for I do not "wai kru" or ram muay as you call it, since I do not fight. Also my explanation may not be complete, but this is my understanding. When you are frighten or excited, your heart rate goes through the roof and you loose your concentration. A prayer is a guise of meditation. You concentrate on your prayer, and you regain control of yourself. A wai kru literally means paying respect to your teacher. All his teachings and moves should go through your mind. Through this concentration, you will be aware of the noises and commotions that build up the atmosphere, but your mind will be calm and you concentrate on the task at hand. Secondly, the wai kru will warm up and stretch the muscles. If you wai kru just to complete the tradition, then it is almost wasted, but if you concentrate and use this moment to reflect on your training and your teacher, you will have a clear mind and relax heart beat.
Khun Kao
Posted: 2004-07-05 00:40:06

I understand what you're saying, but I don't agree. The Wai Kru/Ram Muay has Buddhist influence as Thailand and its culture is heavily steeped in Buddhism, but my understanding of the Wai Kru/Ram Muay ceremonies is that they are not MEANT to be a "Buddhist" ritual.

The Wai Kru/Ram Muay is a means of showing respect and of focusing your thoughts and energies towards the fight.

Once upon a time, you could guage a fighters skill by watching his dance. This isn't entirely the case today, as I understand theres a saying in Thailand that those who have pretty dances usually aren't the best fighters. The dance is still performed out of respect and for tradition, but as you say, you are there to fight, not dance.

We take the same approach to dancing in our gym. Sure, we teach the dances. But we don't focus too much time on our fighters learning the intracacies of them. We teach them the basics of the dance, and focus on their fight training. To tell you the truth, there have only been about 3 of us fighters who have learned any of the dances well. But that has more to do with our deep love of the art and of Thai culture. Most students/fighters are more interested in simply learning to fight.

Heck, not all of our fighters have performed the Ram Muay when they've fought. A few of our guys merely perform the Wai Kru, then "dance" back to the corner for our coach to remove their Mongkon. Usually, we are the only gym that even bothers performing a Wai Kru/Ram Muay at our fights.....
Posted: 2004-07-05 01:15:05
I cant say ive ever heard that about pretty dancers not being best fighters! as for 4 fighters that have stand out wai kruus that are very elaborate and win awards you have Namsaknoi, Buakao Por Pramuk, Orono Majestic gym and Sakadpetch sor Sakunpan all have very elaborate class wai kruus and all top draw fighters too!
Posted: 2004-07-05 03:20:45
All the lads in our gym have an on going jibe about the length of my Ram-Muay!!
It can last up to about 5mins! I was amazed at Orono Majestics ram-muay, it is brilliant. I think he won best Ram-muay award last year (?Rob?).... and he takes about 8mins!!!
I learnt mine in Thailand under the instruction of Jitti Damriram. He told me all about the mental thought that goes in to the symbolizm of the three bows etc (parents, teacher, god) and most of the thai mythical creatures the Ram-Muay immitates. It is a good stretch/warm-up... calm before the storm...

If a young boy wanted to be a fighter in Thailand he can spend up to 3/4 months learning the Ram-muay/wai-kru before even touching the pads!!!
Also, the first time I fought over there, all the guys in the gym came and asked me the next day, NOT how the fight went, but they were more concerned about the ram-muay.... I think this is from the adage "good wai-kru, good fight"...
This is probably the experiance which has put more impetus and value in to the wai-kru than the purely "western" philosophy of it "just being a warm-up"... I think, if you believe in it, it helps.... certainly has with me so far!!!

On the physical side, in high tense situations you sometimes see fighters become paralized by the situation in front of them, the ram-muay will serve as a "mobilisation" technique to get them thinking of the task in hand and drag them out of that paralysis before the fight.

I think its also part of the show! Giving a good ram-muay is similar to the Haka Maori's do, and I think spectators like to see that. It is also a good way of keeping hold of the Thai culture so it doesnt keep getting "watered-down" (although it is normally edited out of TV shows)
Posted: 2004-07-05 03:51:50
yes his was voted best wai kruu for last year! the year before Buakao got it and the year before that Namsaknoi
Bill Judd
Posted: 2004-07-05 04:58:02
Gosh , Interesting subject. I can remember this topic of conversation in the seventies. The core of the argument for me "is the Ram Muay a Buddhist Ritual or not?" I believe it is for a number of reasons .(ie the Significance of the three etc)
I choose to explain the ritual to my students and then give them a informed choice. The counter argument is why is it that Islamic students can perform a Islamic version ie the head dose not touch the ground and the koran is opened. ( often seen in the south of Thailand where there is a high moslem population)

I choose to compromise and ask students to "Wai Kru" seal the ring Showing respect for Thai culture and Tradition and also paying homage to their teacher parents Et. Performing the Ram Muay only if they fully understand what the ritual means and agree with it . In the past I have had followers of different religions Ie Orthodox Jews and a Seek who refused to do a Ram Muay.

I may be wrong . I often am ! However Respect For Thai culture has been shown and then it a matter of Personal choice and Beliefs.
Sandy Holt
Posted: 2004-07-05 08:12:03
Relgeon is just a "frame of Mind" !
And coz Buddhism has no hold or overtones and is the Most easy and passifistic ways and Fighting isnt one of them ( Ironic when it comes to Muay-Thai in the Nicest way though, yet other religeons Say one thing and do another, but im leading away sorry !! )

Point im making is Im Not Buddhist or Any Religeon, so every time i "Pray" ? do the Ram Muay- like Khun Khao, i just ask for help, strenght and Good Spirit from My Teacher / master Past Fighters ? And Family and Friends Strength to help me win !
As i say
its Just a "Frame of Mind"!
But i really Like the Fealing you get whilst Doing it ! and gets your More time to Feel the ring and the "Battlefield"
In a More western way..
I say its to Get used to the Size of the Boxing ring and area you have to Fight and Move around in, check the Surface as your Skin touches the Floor, Slippy? Grippy? and Test the Ropes, loose? Tight?
And Check your Enemy / your sport Challenge, and you can do this Pre-Fight Meditative, calming of Mind and Loosen up any tightness of the Muscles / relax a mo:
As was does Music do for us ??
Slow Music ( Ram-Muay ) to calm, and Fast Thai Music to Incite, Battle Dance / fight !
Khun Kao
Posted: 2004-07-05 09:10:18
I don't think that the good dancers=not-so-good-fighters is considered to be a rule of thumb, but I have heard this mentioned a few times (by Thai people, not westerners) that those with really good dances are often mediocre fighters. I personally cannot comment whether or not this is true.

One thing I do know is that both of my Thai coaches encourage keeping the Ram Muay short and to the point. As stated earlier, their belief is that you enter the ring to fight, not dance. They both teach abbreviated versions of the Ram Muay.

My personal feeling is that I think that all fighters should try to learn the Ram Muay, and learn it well! I did not learn the Ram Muays that I know simply to go through the motions! I make an honest attempt to get the subtleties of the dance down-pat. Sure, on most occassions, those in attendance wouldn't know the difference, but *I* do! And in the event that there are Thai people in the audience, or even serving as officials, I want them to take pride in the fact that this westerner doesn't train in Muay Thai for the fighting alone.

I have two Ram Muay stories to share....

#1- In 1994, I participated in a USA vs. Canada Muay Thai event in Niagara Falls, NY. I was fighting a guy out of Siam No. 1 in Toronto under Master Suchart. This is the only time I have fought an opponent who also performed a Ram Muay prior to our match (except in exhibition bouts). The fight officials that evening were all Thai. After my opponent and I performed our dances, one of the Thai officials, based upon seeing our Ram Muays, predicted that I would knock my opponent out. Sure enough, the fight lasted a mere 43 seconds.

#2- Last year, I participated in a charity event at the Royal Thai Embassy in Washington, D.C. Our gym performed some exhibition matches. My training partner and I went through the entire pre-fight warmups, massage with oil, blessings by our coach... then we did our Ram Muays.... The whole experience is hard to put into words. The crowd (about 200+ people) was about 70% Thai, we had a live Emcee doing color commentary in Thai, the traditional Thai music was playing..... We both discussed it after our exhibition match and it was like something came over us! We were both completely in a zone! Our coach had prepared us to fight each other in such a way where we weren't really hitting each other for real, but slapping at one another to make loud noises to impress the crowd. But after we completed our Ram Muays, we were both "in that zone", and we just started duking it out for real! We banged the fuck out of each others shins, totally beating on one another. The crowd LOVED IT! Afterwards, neither one of us was hurt besides a few minor bruises. It was like we had "worked our magic" with our Ram Muays and received the protective spells or something....

I know, I know.... you don't need to say it: Put the crack pipe down! LOL
Baz Faulty
Posted: 2004-07-06 01:32:52
I like the ram muay it adds a bit style and art to the sport as well as being tradtional
Posted: 2004-07-06 03:10:34
Wai kru is not really religeous, but sacred tradition. and excessive wai kru can be considered sacrireligeous. After all, you are there to fight. A too brief wai kru doesn't serve its purpose either. It's like spending time in the toilet. You spend too little time, you get a hemorrhoid. You spend too much time, you come out with a disagreeing body odour. Yet you have to go to the toilet.
Dynamite Drew
Posted: 2004-07-06 04:37:52
i am westerner and when i fought muay thai , i did the wai kru

i did it as its part of muay thai , i did the wai kru as taught to me by my trainer

it warmed me up , help relax me and also paid respects to my trainer ( he is thai )and his muay thai heritage

i think its disgusting that many westerners dont do wai kru as it is part of muay thai and i think extremely disrespectful of muay thai hertage not to do so .

think of it this way , would you go a wedding reception in singlet , shorts and thongs ? no way would you .

this is how i think with performing wai kru , it should be done and thats it

Dynamite Drew
Posted: 2004-07-06 04:47:10
this is from world muay thai council website ( )

The first thing that is required for practicing Muay Thai is the performance of ritual homage and dancing that is called the Wai Kru. All boxers must perform this homage before starting their daily practice.

MuayThai is regarded as a field of martial art and science that has been developed from generation to generation since the establishment of the Thai nation. Muay Thai is therefore a mixture of all good things and indicates the long-lasting and civilized culture of the nation.

According to the tradition of MuayThai, the ritual homage is the first part of the competition so as to pay gratitude and respect to the fighter’s trainer, the opponent, the referee and judges and the audience. In so doing the boxer believes that luck will be on their side and he won’t be afraid of anything.

The Wai Kru is performed through dance. While the boxer is dancing, he will observe his opponent and stretch his body to get physical and spiritual relax at the same time. The attitudes used in the dance show the major techniques used called Mae Mai to practice the basic skills and balancing techniques.

Besides the performance of ritual homage also shows the boxers respect and gratitude towards his trainer. Wai Kru will be performed in a tender manner according to the trainer’s instructions. It indicates the morality and ethics of the fighter. Therefore the style will vary from region to region and from trainer to trainer.

It is also a strategy used to teach boxers to hold onto the unity and fraternity of the team. Id the boxers perform the same style of Wai Kru it means the same instructors of the same camp taught them. They won’t fight each other and the fraternity will lead them in their loyalty to the king. They must accordingly turn their faces to where the king sits.

The boxers who come from the northern region usually have strong legs and therefore use vigorous and threatening attitudes whereas the boxers from the south use a gentler approach because they usually defend in a more gentle manner. Boxers from the Central region also have their own style

Sandy Holt
Posted: 2004-07-06 22:50:35
Dynamite Drew writes:

i am westerner and when i fought muay thai , i did the wai kru

i did it as its part of muay thai , i did the wai kru as taught to me by my trainer

it warmed me up , help relax me and also paid respects to my trainer ( he is thai )and his muay thai heritage

Well Said ! !
Me too ! Nice one !
Sandy Holt
Posted: 2004-07-07 20:06:45
Use the Ram-Muay to what Advantage you want ! and Use it to Be Respectfull to your Opponent !
Till The Bell starts and Then Rings to Finish !
Posted: 2009-08-21 08:45:50
Any new comments on this..........why do you ram muay ?
Posted: 2009-08-21 09:55:16
I did a few for "gradings" only.I like to see a good ram muay(Juks was top at the reebok)but some can be a bit over indulgent?
I also like the dutch way of not doing them and getting on with fight!
It's a tough one,I was under the impression it was linked to Bhuddisium? Well if your C of E,Roman Catholic,Muslim...etc... is it right to "perform" one?
Same as wearing a Bhudda around your neck,Why? if your not bhuddist?

But then again Rosary beads/cross is the latest thing to have around your neck it seems.
Dave Croft
Posted: 2009-08-21 10:16:07
None of my guys perform a ritual ceremony, wear a monkong or arm band with emulets.

It is their choice.

Without doubt it is for the individual to make this call. Alex for instance prefers to get lost in his entrance music and focus. and i can see how others may prefer to relax performing a ritual.

The proposed ruling from the UKMF suggest a mandatory wai kru/ram muay for all fighters to maintain discipline and tradition. Though in practice this may yet be diluted to 3 bows and bowing to acknowledge the officials at ring side.
Sandy Holt
Posted: 2009-08-21 16:13:05
choices 4 sure and wow 2004 this topic
nice revival K4c
Posted: 2009-08-21 17:00:47
wai khru is only tradition of religion inside.
you are dancing for your gym,your teachers,promoters,family,friends, say thank you to everybody help you in your life of fighter.

if you don't do the wai khru you cannot fought in some stadiums in thailand.
if you practice muay it's normal to respect thai traditions.
if you don't want respect the traditions better to go to k1 or kickboxing.

same for dressing/short,mongkhon,prachuap,fighting robe...and no long hairs for fighting
Posted: 2009-08-21 20:33:37
no long hair? first time i heard it
paul pearson
Posted: 2009-08-22 01:30:42
Good post Antuan.
Posted: 2009-08-22 02:36:24
No long hairs.... I think he means clean shaven (no beards)
Posted: 2009-08-22 02:45:20
thanks paul.

normaly in thailand you fought with short hair.
in lumpini and rajadamnern they don't like long hair(army and police stadiums)
you cannot fought with long hair (reglementary short hair cutting like in thai school).

so,because in the history of muay it's a army and police practice.

different of muay chaya or muay talay in the south(practiced by fishermen and farmers)long hair,tatoos,black skin,mafia can see them fighting in siam omnoi and aswidam stadium.
Posted: 2009-08-22 03:03:00

Posted: 2009-08-22 03:12:19
good posts

can you have a beard in top stadiums?
Posted: 2009-08-22 05:04:47
can you have a beard in top stadiums?

in lumpini no bearb no mustache (for thai fighters)
Posted: 2009-08-22 05:55:14

Posted: 2009-08-22 05:55:47
Posted: 2009-08-22 06:18:52
antuan, good post, clearer now.
Posted: 2009-08-22 06:19:43
oh and ram muay! i agree with the above, its a thai tradition, we practice that sport so why not do it!?
Posted: 2009-08-22 08:10:58
Did it steam from capital punishment back in the day.Did a man with a sword dance to music before chopping the head of a poor peasants head
paul pearson
Posted: 2009-08-22 12:02:20
Antuan,thats a real nice Ram Muay and very well performed.
liam badco
Posted: 2009-08-23 07:38:49
yes you can have a beard at Lumpinee Imran Khan has fought there 3x maybe more with a beard as he is a muslimi think
Posted: 2009-08-23 09:16:17
imran isn't thai
liam badco
Posted: 2009-08-23 10:16:42
why is it for thai fighters only??
Posted: 2009-08-23 12:27:41
but for me :
when i have a fight in lumpini i respect the traditions
may be because i live long time in thailand.
each promotion in lumpini is different and my promotors
want you respect some muay traditions and thai life style.

if you want come for fight in thailand with green hair,bearb,
mexican hat and rugby can ...but is better to go
in the royal thai circus . 555555555
Posted: 2009-08-23 16:21:01
I enjoy the ram muay but at a fight card with 10-15 bouts sometimes its kinda like okay lets just see the fight. Maybe because most of our fighters do the same Ram Muay so after you see it a couple of times there is not much to it in terms of being a spectator. Certainly the fighter benefits from it !!
Posted: 2009-08-23 16:57:39
I like watching big fighters to Ram Muay ,
Iv never done one myself tho.
Bow before i get in the ring ,
step over ropes,
seal the ring from each corner.

Little rituals,

I liked Liam And Saenchais Ram muay alot.
Really built up the event aswell as just added to the show
Posted: 2009-08-23 16:57:54
*do , not to
Sandy Holt
Posted: 2009-08-23 19:03:56
great posts and thoughts
Sandy Holt
Posted: 2009-08-25 22:17:49
I agree with what someone wrote about 3 rounders maybe Not doing Full Ram muays
and maybe just seal ring or 6 bows good idea to save time
Posted: 2009-08-28 15:50:16
I do tha running-man to mc hammer it gets tha blood flowing lol.nah on a serious note, it shows how confident one is to do it n focused .its gotta be done
Sandy Holt
Posted: 2009-08-31 00:16:23
lol and MC Hammer Legend
anyone got him Dancing on you tube ? get it on here lol
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