Topic:Take Down's, Do They Score?
Yeah, as long as they are legal and are using the front of the leg/shin/foot, not the back of the leg/foot and are not a judo type hip hrow.
You see so many ref's letting fighters do hip throws trips and trips using using the back of the leg. It always annoys me to see it
Hope that's right or i'm going to look like a right tit :)
You see so many ref's letting fighters do hip throws trips and trips using using the back of the leg. It always annoys me to see it
Hope that's right or i'm going to look like a right tit :)
Take downs in Thai Boxing (UK), do they score?
I am hopeing Mr Moore could answer this for me.
I believe that there are no scores for taking down your opponent. i.e. grappling throw down, turn over knee, both fall over, hip throw.... even if you land on top of your opponent.
As far as I see it, we in a striking art, not a submissive/wrestling art, so therefor the only way to score by putting someone on the floor, is by a strong strike. Front kick to the chest, Round house to a supporting leg, a double knee to the stomach... so on which results in them falling back on there butts.
Can I get your opinions please.
I am hopeing Mr Moore could answer this for me.
I believe that there are no scores for taking down your opponent. i.e. grappling throw down, turn over knee, both fall over, hip throw.... even if you land on top of your opponent.
As far as I see it, we in a striking art, not a submissive/wrestling art, so therefor the only way to score by putting someone on the floor, is by a strong strike. Front kick to the chest, Round house to a supporting leg, a double knee to the stomach... so on which results in them falling back on there butts.
Can I get your opinions please.
how you do that? I was still typing..
You can't exactly stop a fighter from doing hip throws, can you? Surely it's a better policy just to warn the fighter making them and perhaps if continued deduct points. Perhaps Tony could clarrify what referees are obliged to do?
What does bug me slightly is how some more uninformed crowds cheer their prefered fighter if he does a hip throw or trips his opponent.
What does bug me slightly is how some more uninformed crowds cheer their prefered fighter if he does a hip throw or trips his opponent.
how you do that? I was still typing..
A good hip throw will result in javeling/spearing your opponent.. which is banned! Even in Thailand I believe. "Javeling/Spearing" turning your opponent upside down, so they go head first in the canvas, hopefully resulting in breaking there neck.
A good hip throw will result in javeling/spearing your opponent.. which is banned! Even in Thailand I believe. "Javeling/Spearing" turning your opponent upside down, so they go head first in the canvas, hopefully resulting in breaking there neck.
Basil Says:
"You can't exactly stop a fighter from doing hip throws, can you? Surely it's a better policy just to warn the fighter making them and perhaps if continued deduct points.
What does bug me slightly is how some more uninformed crowds cheer their prefered fighter if he does a hip throw or trips his opponent."
I completely agree. The point is some ref's do not even warn the fighters after they have done it (not Mr Myers I might add). In Holland it's amazing the amount of illegal trips (using the back of the lower leg) that go on and the ref's say nowt.
The thing is Basil, when some ref's do warn fighters some of them are not even aware they've done anything worng !
"You can't exactly stop a fighter from doing hip throws, can you? Surely it's a better policy just to warn the fighter making them and perhaps if continued deduct points.
What does bug me slightly is how some more uninformed crowds cheer their prefered fighter if he does a hip throw or trips his opponent."
I completely agree. The point is some ref's do not even warn the fighters after they have done it (not Mr Myers I might add). In Holland it's amazing the amount of illegal trips (using the back of the lower leg) that go on and the ref's say nowt.
The thing is Basil, when some ref's do warn fighters some of them are not even aware they've done anything worng !
They definitley score Singto; it shows dominace and control over your opponent, which is a huge criteria in MT scoring !
Can you be more specific about techniques.... which score.
Tony Myers has some great images showing scoring bone fide throws/takedowns and illegal ones.
I'm sure he'll see this thread and elaborate on the subject. Whilst I know the basics I can't make out to be an expert on judging and scoring criteria.
I'm sure he'll see this thread and elaborate on the subject. Whilst I know the basics I can't make out to be an expert on judging and scoring criteria.
Guatanamo
I never posted that.
I think someone has got hold of my password.
I think someone has got hold of my password.
No Hipthrows but if you off balance your opponent and then strike it is a better score so in essence yes but the better fighters wouldnt throw an opponent down as such, more like use their opponents weight against them and cause them to fall down of thier own accord as they try to move or strike.
So that off balancing is just that, they where of balance - No score.
You knocked them down with a strong striking technique - Score.
You knocked them down with a strong striking technique - Score.
Just realised......Take Down is almost an anagram of Tae Kwon Do...........eurghh
Sorry, just bored!
FB'Slim
Sorry, just bored!
FB'Slim
Hi Ryan
To an extent your question has been answered on a previous thread. So part of this response has been cut and pasted from a previous post I made some time ago. I will respond in three sections: a) what is a legal takedown/throw and what is not? b) Do legal takedowns/throws score or not? c) What can a referee can do about illegal throws and takedowns?
What’s legal and what’s not?
First a mention Whether you use the word throw or take-down doesn’t really matter as long as you able to define what it involves; certain throws or take-downs are legal and others are not. The written rules, or at least the English translations of the rules, in my experience, are not necessarily as comprehensively detailed or as clearly translated as they might be. However, here are some rules associated with fouls associated with throwing techniques, from a variety of prominent Thai governing bodies, Amateur and Professional:
The World MuayThai Council Rules (WMC, 1995) do not explicitly mention throws as being illegal. In section 18, which is the section that outlines foul and strikes violating the rules, rule 18.2 only suggests “wrestling, back or arm locks or any similar judo or wrestling hold” are illegal. However, in the Board of Boxing Sport Rules (Sport Authority of Thailand, 2002) rule 16.2 (English translation) states that, “throwing, back breaking, locking opponent’s arms, using Judo and wrestling techniques” are all violations of the rules. The Amateur MuayThai Association of Thailand, the Federation of Amateur MuayThai of Asia, and the International Federation of MuayThai Amateur’s rules for Amateur MuayThai competition 17 b 2 suggests that “a throw on an opponent, a back breaking manoeuvre, an intentional fall over, a judo or wrestling throw to an opponent” are fouls.
By reading the rules highlighted above, the situation may appear confusing, particularly if you only have the written rules to inform an opinion you might hold. Which methods of putting an opponent on the canvas are legal and which are illegal are clear cut to professional referees, trainers, fighters and the betting public in Thailand, even if they are not clearly explained in official rules.
The following “judo and wrestling” moves are fouls (Board of Boxing Sport, 2002):
a) A boxer wraps his leg around the leg of their opponent from the inside or the outside and forces their opponent to the floor.
b) A boxer locks an opponent’s neck and executes a hip to shoulder or hip throw
c) A boxer grabs their opponent’s hip in a waist lock and throws using a hip throw
d) A boxer grabs an opponent’s arm, turns and uses their calf and back of their thigh (hamstring muscle group) to sweep an opponent’s legs from under them.
e) A boxer grabs an opponent and falls backward to throw their opponent
f) A boxer attempts a rugby style tackle on the legs and waist of an opponent
g) A boxer grabs their opponent’s waist from behind, then, placing a leg between their opponent’s legs, pulls their opponent backwards over their leg and hip
h) A boxer grabs their opponent from below the waist, lifting and throwing
i) A boxer catches their opponent’s leg and uses their other arm to push them off balance while taking more than two steps forwards
j) A boxer catches their opponent’s leg and uses their calf muscle to trip/sweep an opponent off their feet
k) A boxer ankle trips their opponent
l) A boxer leg sweeps their opponent using the calf or inside of their foot
m) A boxer traps their opponent’s arms in a waist lock, lifts their opponent and throws
n) A boxer grabs an opponent from behind, lifts and throws
o) A boxer grabs around an opponent’s lower spine and hyper-extends their back in a “back breaking” move
These are possibly better illustrated visually so I have attached some illustrations used to identify illegal techniques at the Board of Boxing Sport MuayThai Training course for Judges and referees. These can be found on the thread “do throws score?”
It is my understanding that there are two reasons certain throws are illegal, the first reason is safety, some throws offer the possibility of lasting or permanent damage (cuts from an elbow heal relatively quickly). Other throws are excluded because they are considered to be techniques from other martial arts and not MuayThai. This last point is a contentious issue, some trainers in Thailand feel that the art of MuayThai is being eroded and more and more techniques are being taken away by the rules. For example, Kon Khun Yak Pa Nang is a traditional technique that involves a hip throw, MuayThai not judo.
Do legal takedowns/throws score or not?
I will try to illustrate the extent to which throws/takedowns can score by using three categories: excellent scoring techniques involving a throw/take-down, good scoring techniques involving a throw/take-down and the general influence of throwing techniques on scoring.
Excellent scoring technique involving a throw: a) a legal ‘throw ‘ or ‘take-down’ technique that is followed by a strong technique. This is an excellent score and as Liam mentioned earlier the boxer being unbalanced or thrown doesn't actually have to land on the canvas for it to score well either.
Excellent scoring technique; b)when a boxer catches their opponent's leg and kicks them over. If the boxer uses the top of their foot or shin this is legal, if they use the side of their foot or back of their calf muscle it's a foul.
Good scoring technique involving a throw a) a legal ‘throw ‘ or ‘take-down’ technique that is followed by a strong technique but one where the technique misses due to an unbalanced boxer falling to the floor before the technique lands. This scores well but not as well the example given above when the technique actually makes contact.
c) General influence of throwing techniques on scoring. With no follow-up technique, legal throws/takedown only score in the sense they show who is stronger to the judges. This is particularly the case if one boxer continually throws their opponent and they can’t counter the technique. Boxers always attempt to land on top of their opponent to show judges they are the stronger boxer; something that is important in MuayThai.
What can a referee can do about illegal throws and takedowns?
Referees can and should do all they can to prevent fouls and the possibility of serious injury when boxers use them or attempt to use them. If a referee is able to anticipate a hip throw for example, they should try to use their weight to prevent the hip throw being completed. After every foul throw or takedown, referees should make it clear to the boxer it was a foul and not to do it again. If they do commit a similar foul again they should be cautioned, if they still persist they should be warned and depending on the severity of the infringement, possibly have points deducted. Judges should also watch for foul throws and take-downs and use this in considering their fight decisions. Finally it is worth noting that if a boxer is unable to carry on in the fight as a result of an illegal technique such as a hip throw, the boxer who committed the foul should be disqualified. I personally have disqualified boxers for using hip throws.
Hope this helps
To an extent your question has been answered on a previous thread. So part of this response has been cut and pasted from a previous post I made some time ago. I will respond in three sections: a) what is a legal takedown/throw and what is not? b) Do legal takedowns/throws score or not? c) What can a referee can do about illegal throws and takedowns?
What’s legal and what’s not?
First a mention Whether you use the word throw or take-down doesn’t really matter as long as you able to define what it involves; certain throws or take-downs are legal and others are not. The written rules, or at least the English translations of the rules, in my experience, are not necessarily as comprehensively detailed or as clearly translated as they might be. However, here are some rules associated with fouls associated with throwing techniques, from a variety of prominent Thai governing bodies, Amateur and Professional:
The World MuayThai Council Rules (WMC, 1995) do not explicitly mention throws as being illegal. In section 18, which is the section that outlines foul and strikes violating the rules, rule 18.2 only suggests “wrestling, back or arm locks or any similar judo or wrestling hold” are illegal. However, in the Board of Boxing Sport Rules (Sport Authority of Thailand, 2002) rule 16.2 (English translation) states that, “throwing, back breaking, locking opponent’s arms, using Judo and wrestling techniques” are all violations of the rules. The Amateur MuayThai Association of Thailand, the Federation of Amateur MuayThai of Asia, and the International Federation of MuayThai Amateur’s rules for Amateur MuayThai competition 17 b 2 suggests that “a throw on an opponent, a back breaking manoeuvre, an intentional fall over, a judo or wrestling throw to an opponent” are fouls.
By reading the rules highlighted above, the situation may appear confusing, particularly if you only have the written rules to inform an opinion you might hold. Which methods of putting an opponent on the canvas are legal and which are illegal are clear cut to professional referees, trainers, fighters and the betting public in Thailand, even if they are not clearly explained in official rules.
The following “judo and wrestling” moves are fouls (Board of Boxing Sport, 2002):
a) A boxer wraps his leg around the leg of their opponent from the inside or the outside and forces their opponent to the floor.
b) A boxer locks an opponent’s neck and executes a hip to shoulder or hip throw
c) A boxer grabs their opponent’s hip in a waist lock and throws using a hip throw
d) A boxer grabs an opponent’s arm, turns and uses their calf and back of their thigh (hamstring muscle group) to sweep an opponent’s legs from under them.
e) A boxer grabs an opponent and falls backward to throw their opponent
f) A boxer attempts a rugby style tackle on the legs and waist of an opponent
g) A boxer grabs their opponent’s waist from behind, then, placing a leg between their opponent’s legs, pulls their opponent backwards over their leg and hip
h) A boxer grabs their opponent from below the waist, lifting and throwing
i) A boxer catches their opponent’s leg and uses their other arm to push them off balance while taking more than two steps forwards
j) A boxer catches their opponent’s leg and uses their calf muscle to trip/sweep an opponent off their feet
k) A boxer ankle trips their opponent
l) A boxer leg sweeps their opponent using the calf or inside of their foot
m) A boxer traps their opponent’s arms in a waist lock, lifts their opponent and throws
n) A boxer grabs an opponent from behind, lifts and throws
o) A boxer grabs around an opponent’s lower spine and hyper-extends their back in a “back breaking” move
These are possibly better illustrated visually so I have attached some illustrations used to identify illegal techniques at the Board of Boxing Sport MuayThai Training course for Judges and referees. These can be found on the thread “do throws score?”
It is my understanding that there are two reasons certain throws are illegal, the first reason is safety, some throws offer the possibility of lasting or permanent damage (cuts from an elbow heal relatively quickly). Other throws are excluded because they are considered to be techniques from other martial arts and not MuayThai. This last point is a contentious issue, some trainers in Thailand feel that the art of MuayThai is being eroded and more and more techniques are being taken away by the rules. For example, Kon Khun Yak Pa Nang is a traditional technique that involves a hip throw, MuayThai not judo.
Do legal takedowns/throws score or not?
I will try to illustrate the extent to which throws/takedowns can score by using three categories: excellent scoring techniques involving a throw/take-down, good scoring techniques involving a throw/take-down and the general influence of throwing techniques on scoring.
Excellent scoring technique involving a throw: a) a legal ‘throw ‘ or ‘take-down’ technique that is followed by a strong technique. This is an excellent score and as Liam mentioned earlier the boxer being unbalanced or thrown doesn't actually have to land on the canvas for it to score well either.
Excellent scoring technique; b)when a boxer catches their opponent's leg and kicks them over. If the boxer uses the top of their foot or shin this is legal, if they use the side of their foot or back of their calf muscle it's a foul.
Good scoring technique involving a throw a) a legal ‘throw ‘ or ‘take-down’ technique that is followed by a strong technique but one where the technique misses due to an unbalanced boxer falling to the floor before the technique lands. This scores well but not as well the example given above when the technique actually makes contact.
c) General influence of throwing techniques on scoring. With no follow-up technique, legal throws/takedown only score in the sense they show who is stronger to the judges. This is particularly the case if one boxer continually throws their opponent and they can’t counter the technique. Boxers always attempt to land on top of their opponent to show judges they are the stronger boxer; something that is important in MuayThai.
What can a referee can do about illegal throws and takedowns?
Referees can and should do all they can to prevent fouls and the possibility of serious injury when boxers use them or attempt to use them. If a referee is able to anticipate a hip throw for example, they should try to use their weight to prevent the hip throw being completed. After every foul throw or takedown, referees should make it clear to the boxer it was a foul and not to do it again. If they do commit a similar foul again they should be cautioned, if they still persist they should be warned and depending on the severity of the infringement, possibly have points deducted. Judges should also watch for foul throws and take-downs and use this in considering their fight decisions. Finally it is worth noting that if a boxer is unable to carry on in the fight as a result of an illegal technique such as a hip throw, the boxer who committed the foul should be disqualified. I personally have disqualified boxers for using hip throws.
Hope this helps
FATBOY ...i noticed that too .. lol
Well i think a few referees should read this as certain so called experts love a good back bender or body slam.
Fatboy - lol!!!
Tony, a truly cool post as always!
My opinion? It depends on the rules!! Tony has stated clearly the Thai rules, and it shows the legal points of impact when sweeping, and that you can't hold and sweep....so what I do is set the turning motion up with a punch, then kick the legs to keep the rotation going...and one way ticket to canvassville!!
Smiler
Tony, a truly cool post as always!
My opinion? It depends on the rules!! Tony has stated clearly the Thai rules, and it shows the legal points of impact when sweeping, and that you can't hold and sweep....so what I do is set the turning motion up with a punch, then kick the legs to keep the rotation going...and one way ticket to canvassville!!
Smiler
Thankyou Tony, I knew I wasnt going mad!!
I have put 8 fighters out in the last two months on several shows, and have been fuming by the end of the fights. Simply because of what I percieved (and you have stated above ref. hip throws/sweeps/and use of calf/back of leg techniques) where fouls.
I stuck with one promotor in the past WMTO, and this year decided to try and spread my wings a little, to get out there and see what was going on.
I think I might clip my own wings, as I dont think I will be able to keep my cool at competitions anymore, if I see one more bad refeering decision.
As always Mr Myers, you knowledge is unsurpassed.
Just as a foot note, 2W 2D 4L. I think with fair refereeing it would have look alot different.
I have put 8 fighters out in the last two months on several shows, and have been fuming by the end of the fights. Simply because of what I percieved (and you have stated above ref. hip throws/sweeps/and use of calf/back of leg techniques) where fouls.
I stuck with one promotor in the past WMTO, and this year decided to try and spread my wings a little, to get out there and see what was going on.
I think I might clip my own wings, as I dont think I will be able to keep my cool at competitions anymore, if I see one more bad refeering decision.
As always Mr Myers, you knowledge is unsurpassed.
Just as a foot note, 2W 2D 4L. I think with fair refereeing it would have look alot different.
Tony,
I have pasted this thread into my clubs own forum, for all my students to learn from.
As it was from one of them that finally got me asking the question.
Could you possibly keep me informed about when you are going to be doing your Judges and Ref seminar in 2005.
I want all my students to attend, Ding! Would you be prepared to travel to Cambridge to do a seminar?
If so I will contact you direct to discuss.
I have pasted this thread into my clubs own forum, for all my students to learn from.
As it was from one of them that finally got me asking the question.
Could you possibly keep me informed about when you are going to be doing your Judges and Ref seminar in 2005.
I want all my students to attend, Ding! Would you be prepared to travel to Cambridge to do a seminar?
If so I will contact you direct to discuss.
Hi Ryan
Yes, I would be happy to come down to Cambridge; e-mail me and we can discuss further.
Yes, I would be happy to come down to Cambridge; e-mail me and we can discuss further.
will do!
Most of those foul moves are my favorites in Ju-Jitsu,
I'd be disqualified if I ever got into a MT ring!
:O)
I'd be disqualified if I ever got into a MT ring!
:O)
Yeah, but you would probably be a crowd pleaser!!!
Attention: Tony Myers did you get my email?
reference seminar in february.
reference seminar in february.
Hi Ryan
No pal I didn't get your e-mail but February should be possible. Did you use ADmyers@aol.com ?
No pal I didn't get your e-mail but February should be possible. Did you use ADmyers@aol.com ?
Sponsor
Yes Tony, I did email that, I think. Anyway I'll do it again tonight!
Sponsor:
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