How bad is sparring?

For lots of reasons I worry a lot about the damage sparring does to the brain (both the acute knockout and the progressive damage caused by frequent low impact shots). We are all aware of the risks associated with boxing, does anybody have the same concerns in mT? And if not, why not?

And, can you still train usefully without sparring, but with lots of well designed bag and pad work?

To answer your question. Yes sparring can damage you.

Check other thread 'Blood Clots on the Brain'.
This was sustained through sparring.

IMO (speaking from experience) looking at fighting you definately need to put in work with GOOD a sparring partner. I have tried to do it without sparring. A lot of shadow, pads and heavy bag. But when I tried a (very) light sparring session My reactions and coordination were all way off. Also my defense, which I thought looked good in shadow, was off the mark and weak.

I know Mark L has done it without sparring, but from what I read, he returned to sparring after his return bout. Not sure why, maybe you can fill us in Mark.

But nothing compares to sparring IMO.

I personally think you do not learn in hard sparring where you are afraid of getting hurt. I do not think it is an enviroment where one can progress thier skills (many fighters look the same year after year). Also the Thais 'play' in sparring and thier skills are hard to match.

The Thais do get to fight way more and as they start out it is a different atmosphere...

I think someone should build slowly at a pace and power level that they are pretty comfortable with, slowly pushing it a little. Eventually testing now and then to see how they react with harder shots (I don't mean out of the blue hard shots but planned days of picking it up a bit).

Once comfortable going hard I don't think it needs to be done all the time.

1-risk of injury that makes one have to step back from training
2-again, one is in a very sympathetic state, fight or flight, and though it may have its time and place it is not conducive with learning (change)

Do what you've always done and get what you've always got..
Was it Einstein that said something like 'If you do something the same way and expect a different results its a sign of insanity."?

Sparring hard doesn't allow for awareness-awareness is always nessasary for a conscious effort to change.

Playing, besides fun and positive (great places to be for learning)-takes away the fight or flight response-allowing one to focus on change and improvement.

Constantly training in a state of fear or fighting for your life so to speak trains you to be in the same state in the ring IMO

That means you are more likely to revert to survival and maybe be less able to access your deeper skills and abilities.

Thats my opinion on sparring hard...

How bad is sparring... how hard how often?
Reality will probably be its realative to how much your individual body/brain can take before degenerative changes are noticable...

My training partner told this from Sit Yodthonn (anyone been there or there now might be able to add...?)

They use to spar hard with just hands (I think just hands). The kids would miss school sometimes from not feeling well etc They stopp sparring hard and they had way less concussions and KOs from the fights-easily noticable difference..

This is second hand from my training partner (we have no gym and often its the two of us so...)

I do spar for sure... I don't like going too hard too often cause I actually care about my well being and I know fighting isn't all there is in life. I also would like the choice to be able to fight for a long time to come.

I don't see people learn alot in hard sparring-I see them being programmed to be scared and often shying a bit and or you see though guys that can take a beating... well taking a hit is good and all but I really don't think that gets stronger and stronger the more you take 'em (maybe I'm wrong).

Thanks Mark,

I agree totally. I will never sparr hard again. Probably cos i'm a bit chicken now but still.

I like the idea of making it fun tho.

Jamie:
Don't be chicken find really good partners to train with.

The way to overcome the fear in sparring, IMO, is to take it step by step-go at a comfortable place and then build from there.

You see lots of 'angry' fighters, or ones that get in this zone and look really really mean. IMO, this is a method of controling fear. Its something that they never got past but 'toughed' it out and were tough guys.

Jaime-in my experience going bit by bit...then challanging oneself a little (go a little harder than is really comfortable... then you just keep going up without having to cover your fears... thats my opinion.. probably a rare one. :)

Had my first sparring session for a while last saturday.

Only a couple of rounds but I couldn't keep my arms up. My technique was shocking.

Glad to have got that out of the way. Feeling ok, although I was pretty crap!

Jaime-right on :)

How hard did you go?

My opinion is if technique is going out the window and if arms are getting that much heavier than training (factor in glove size) then its the stress is probbaly very high and the cause.

My opinion is that if one builds slowly one does not teach the body to be stressed (we learn by doing-meaning what we do is what we teach our body).

I think building slowly we can get to high levels without teaching the body to be as stressed and tired etc

strength sports and certainly combat sports make this seem harder and certainly is to a degree but I think there is balance.. (I'm not saying never stress-though there is some evidence for that-I'm just saying build)

Just some thoughts-either way good to get in there :)

Check this out

36yr old that was never active or into sports

started running

as is typical with many an athlete he was over training and getting sick and getting injured (both signs of over training)

I think at 37yr old he started another not over training and using some breathing techniques.. he trained keeping his heart rate down (not pushing it up) and slowly built what he could do with a low heart rate.

At 38 he ran 17miles at a 6min/mile pace-not bad right? Trying doing a 6min mile with a heart rate average of 117!!!! and a breath rate of 10 breaths a min!!!!!!

Thats messed!!!!

This is a system I am just learning about but I think it suggests some powerful stuff.

Right now I teach MuayThai at a leisure centre-we only have twice a week and we are big on technique. That and other reasons we haven't been 'conditioning' the guys.

The guys that have been with us a while and have slowly built up thier skills and playing harder and harder as they get comfortable etc with basically NO conditioning... well I started holding pads for them and I held 3x3 rnds 1min break which they did with much much greater ease and less puffing and panting than I ever did when I was training..

I didn't think too much of it cause we weren't going really hard (building you see) but at the same time I know when I was training I would have been breathing much heavier doing what they were (at least in the old days)

We had a guy come to us that use to train somewhere else.. they did much more conditioning and sparring etc it was hard to get him to slow down...

After I found out he was good to 'play' in sparing I let him spar with the other guys... I noticed the differance in how tired he got compared to a couple of my guys that are at a similar level (time training-though no conditioning other than slowly building in sparring and just started pads). My guy wasn't tired at all and he looked like he just fought.

I'm not saying we shouldn't do conditioning, though I certainly think the vast majority of us over train (you know you are more catabolic than anabolic when you don't wake up with a hard on or ladies if you're not pretty much ready for some). I'm just suggesting there is more to it than go go go more is better no pain no gain.

Back to the 6min a mile with a 117 heart rate.

Thats 2 laps on a track in 3min-my heart rate doing that was getting up to (still would be) 180+ hmmmmmm

Thats a pretty good pace of fight conditioning (not that I think running is the best way)...

Not saying we should all stop everything but I think its smart to look and think a little. listen to the body a little and maybe work on some skills once in a while when to killing ones self.

Kind of off topic but like I said-the body learns to do from doing-doesn't learn to do something else from doing...learns to do what you are doing... I don't think we always want to train it to be tired and stressed... maybe?

By the way many Thais seems to be in less stress and fatigue than many farung. I watched a fight yesterday in which the Thai breathed through the nose all of the 1st and 2nd and almost all of the third. 4th started to get more mouth breathing. (a good fight the whole way too).

One of the row teams use to breath through the nose untill they needed the boost in the last few meters and they would get a boost.

I think the idea of always breathing through the mouth is that you are always in a stress response (few fighters seem to fight outside of this 'fight or flight' place as they train to be in it-Samart doesn't appear to be in much of a fight or flight state when fighting and the Thais in general seems way less in a fight or flight state).

Mouth breathing stimulates the fight or flight response...it stimulates the sympathetic nervous system. Nose breathing stimulates the parasympathetic nervous system. There are parasympathetic nerve endings in the nose and deep in the lungs (nose breathing takes the air deeper than mouth breathing equalling greater O2 exchange etc).

The fight or flight reponse puts one in survival mode, not performance mode...

DLH-does he look like he his fighting for his life or performing??
Ali too?

The Thais in general look way more in a performance state than in a fight for your life state...

---
They put a heart rate moneter on a woman that was trying out this system.. within 2 steps her heart rate was up to 160+...2steps!!!!?? That means she is trained and conditioned to be working hard and tired and panting etc... but 2 steps isn't working hard (she was starting off at about a 8min per mile pace)..

2 steps!! and she was already working hard (Samart didn't look to be working hard really..)

Anyway 3 months later she came back and maintained an 8min per mile pace with a heart rate of 130ish...

I wonder about deep breathing and getting hit and running is certainly different than fighting etc...

But the info is enough for me to question this constant all out struggle we train our selves to do day in and day out.

(by the way in this method athletes say they get in the zone big time almost all the time!!!! great athletes certainly perform in the zone!)

I'm just wondering if there is a time and place to at least consider some of this..

I certainly see it with sparring too hard too fast too often that one is trained not to improve but simply worry and get in a place of fear (can cover with aggression etc) and 'fight for survival' as oppossed to performing.

Jut some thoughts..

I tell my guys to spar light all the time for all the reasons outlined and for some others
1. too easy to get injured
2. i tell them that sparring is not a competition to get your points in it is a way of learning from yours and your opponents mistakes and then capitalising on these mistakes.
3. you shuold try a different technique or combination each time you spar.
4. sparring is an art form that takes years of practice, if you learn to spar with speed, precicison and controlled technique it shows that you are in total control of your movements. if you have total control in the gym you will have total control in real fight now how dangerous a fighter does that make you then?
5. a good pad man and/or a thick padded training suit such as red man or fist is the best substitute for hard sparring, you can get your techniques off with full speed, power and accuracy and still have shots fired back at you in order that your guard be kept up, your blocks are tested and your footwork is right, why spar hard when you have the pad man? it doesnt make sense! , spar clever is the key.
good luck and merry xmas

Good points!

I Was really tired and my defense was poor.

Took a few hard shots, I was trying to work on defense and just get the feel for it.

I'll have to get a better sparring partner next time cos' the person I was with kept throwing bombs every now and then and I was just trying to take it easy. Definately not what i'm looking for.

I want to keep it light. I know I can take a shot, I don't need to take them in training. Plus, i'm a little bit of a slugger, I like to give and recieve every now and then and see who's standing at the end. But definately not in training.

Sorry to bump this but I have some input. When I was young and first started muay thai 13-14 years old. I dreaded sparring. Everyone was at least 8 or so years older and outweighed me by quite a lot. Like jaime said people would throw bombs and after getting rocked a few times its not a whole lot of fun.

As I got a little older I would make goals for myself. 1) go as hard as they do. 2) if they land a good one ill try and land a good one. 3) try to stay composed as possible and think about a combo and then try it out.

eventually it all comes with practice and I quite enjoy sparring now. I still dislike the newer guy that comes in and just trys to bomb away. If im going 15% and hes going 75% it doesnt really match up well.

All in all getting hit hard isnt as scary as it seems but it does have its place.

I have some pretty annoying and sometimes painful neck issues right now that is at least in part from sparring.

Many Thais don't spar... at least not the way farung do.

I agree 100% with Mark

Thais play when sparring laugh and joke with each other and thats why they are so relaxed.

stick to the rules of welsh eagle and Mark and enjoy

When you are having fun you are in a state that is conducive to learning and growth. (skill goes up)

Being in a stressful and fearful place (you may say I'm not afraid - you probably mostly are not aware of the fear, may cover with anger or frustration, or shut off awarness).. does not create and environment in which learning thrives.

My team (Mystudents and I) tend not to spar much, only a little bit with the few weeks before fightins to put everything together. So far we are winning most of our fights, so something is definitely working!

Most of out technical training is drills - kind of controlled sparring liited to 2 or 3 technique options.

For example I will get them to kick eachother's arms back and forth at a comfotable pace. Then I will add a few options, for example:

a) make miss and counter kick
b)intercept with a cross

The point is to get them to make a consious decision at the heat of the moment, to not do a mechanical drill that requires no thought. At the same time, limiting the options keeps them focused on a few common responses gives them enough repetititon to master those few techniques.

In general, I would say that technical drills are more useful than sparring

I'm 6'2" and thats my hoodie that he is wearing!!!

lo, sorry wrong forum!!!!!!!

Play, play, play.
Has to be fun as Mark says.

Like most above I always tell my lads that you will never learn anything when someone is trying big bombs at you, you are in survival mode and not trying to practise getting better at your art, about three weeeks out from a fight I will tell lads to do a couple of rounds a bit harder so they can get the feel of a heavier punch coming at them.