male vs female

I've seen many many mixed fights ( i mean: bullshit, arrangments, man slapping out etc, etc...)But really only 2 real mixed fights ( but eventhought the guy was gentle with the woman and didn't attack her properly!ended
with brutal ko)

Why girls want to fight males if they known that with a decent male fighter they have no chance to win and that can be dangerous?

I have also seen some real mixed matches where the woman won...
suffering a brutal ko does not stop a real fighter and danger is what we are used to live with in the ring
With determination and equal weight/experience, a woman has a chance to win, yes!

there was a male vs female cage fight on a website a couple of years and this "female" absolutely kicked the piss and pickles out of this clown... she as awesome

I've seen this match on the net too! and you know as well as me that it was a big bullshit! as you say this guy was a poor clown!
Celine tell me what "real mixed fights" you've seen where the woman won! i'm curious ! i really want to see the guy (say the clown) they put in front of the lady...
let's be realistic and lucid ! all these supposed " real mixed fights" have always a guy with a big disadvantage or in a fake situation!
i have friends: real fighters, you or any woman fighter wouldn't last 1 minute in front of them in ring!!

well done marcus. you have tough women-beating friends.do these guys actually train to fight women?

Hawkman, of course they don't train for that! but if they are seriously call out in the ring by a woman some of them might accept!

Not a very good thread, because most
people are unable to put aside primal emotions-which is necessary for any *intelligent* debate.

Unfortunately, there is too much testorone
and too little dispassionate logic
driving some of these posts.

RE: The cage fight was between Deborah "Sunshine" Fettkether
That fight was not fake, btw, the guy was technically
outclassed yes. But he had the advantage that all men
have over any woman:

1. Superior muscle mass.Including larger neck muscles
which help absorb a punch.

2. Larger bone structure.

3. Fast Twitch muscles: which means fasrer reaction times and
greater explosive power, and being a faster starter.

4. More aggresion due to much more Testosterone.

Just my opinion: Its beyond ordinary stupidity to suggest that for such
a fight to be "fair" the woman should fight a male of equal size, and experience. No woman alive past or present
can be competitve under those requirements. That's fair? Not.

Really, gents, a woman no matter how good, cannot competitvely
fight a man of equal size and experience.
the guys who demand that are either sadists or know-nothings.
Sorry, but that is the truth.


Heres an interview of a woman who defeated a male 11 months.
her comments are quite insightful:

The interviewers initialks are "EMD"

The woman's initials are LM

Their identities are withheld here to protect
then from bein subjected to an orgy
of gratutious slanging, petty school boy insults etc.

heres the interview:

EMD: Congratulations on your victory!


LM: Thank you so much.


EMD: So how do you feel about this fight?


LM: How do I feel about this fight? I feel very good. I would not trade this experience for anything in my past. This experience really changed me in so many ways for the better.


EMD: In what ways?


LM: Well, having basically risen from the dead, so to speak, I feel so totally free, and liberated and at peace with myself and my ability to handle anything life throws at me. I realize in a way I never knew before that that nothing is over until it’s over. I also know I can never be discouraged again by any person or any situation.



EMD: What do you think about your opponent Mr. S ?


LM: He was very tough. He gave me a very hard fight.


EMD: He knocked you down three times. Were you surprised?


LM: Yes. I was surprised when I went down the first time and heard the count from outside the ring and realized I was on the canvass. I had never been down before. It was a very strange feeling.


EMD: You were crying in the first round when you went down. Why?


LM: I “teared up” because of the excruciating pain in my chest and rib cage. It was unbelievably intense. I have never experienced that kind of pain from a punch or kick before. I can still feel it now when I take a deep breath. I have never in my life been hit so hard and so many times.


EMD: Does Mr. S hit harder than any other opponent you have faced?


LM: No question. I actually feared that I was going to faint and lose consciousness due to the pain. I was very dizzy.


EMD: Have you have never been hit that hard by a woman fighter?


LM: Never. Not even close. I knew men could hit harder than us. But, I didn't realize just how much harder.


EMD: Haven’t you sparred with men before this fight?


LM: Of course. And I have sparred with men much bigger and stronger than my opponent today.


EMD: Are you saying that sparing with men is not the same as actually fighting them?


LM: It’s not the same at all! Those male sparring partners must have been going easy on me in the gym.



EMD: Why would they do such a thing?



LM: I think they were being nice and trying to build my confidence. But they were not being honest with me and probably not even with themselves. So I wasn't prepared for a man’s kind of power. Of course they did not know I would one day face a man in the ring who really intended to hurt me.



EMD: So your male sparring partners let you down then?



LM: They were preparing me for tough women, but not to face men in the ring. It's a different world. I was in shock when he hit me with these boxing combos. I would not have expected that from a man his size and age. I would like to remind all the lady fighters that male sparring partners instinctively take it easy with us. Ladies, do not believe them when they tell you they gave you their best shot. If they did, you would be down and out.




EMD: So, how would you advise other women who may have a male opponent in the future?


LM: Actually, I would advise them not to fight a man. Unless, they are an exceptional woman in an exceptional circumstance, with no other options available.



EMD: Why not?



LM: Well, because men are just too strong. Even if they are past their prime like my opponent, or have only mediocre skills they can still really hurt you.



EMD: Well women can hurt you too, can’t they?


LM: Oh yes! But not like a man has the potential to hurt you.



EMD: What do you mean by that?


LM: Men can explode with power so much faster than a woman. It's the fast twitch muscles, I think. Also our bodies can’t take as much trauma. Our bones are smaller. Our muscles are weaker, and our reaction times are slower.


EMD: So how do you think you were able to survive the first round?



LM: I prayed when I was on the canvass and asked the Lord to give me the grace to continue and face with dignity whatever was in store for me.


EMD So, he answered your prayer?


LM: He always answers my prayers.


EMD: Always?


LM: Always!


EMD: So you always get what you ask?


LM: You have to remember that “No” is also an answer. Sometimes his answer is no, when I ask for something that is not good for me or other people. So, I must accept his will for my life, including the bitter, because He works all things together for my good-even disappointments and pain. I only ask for grace to endure and persevere. Nothing more. I don't ask for selfish things like riches or an easy life with no problems.


EMD: So, your faith helps you win fights?


LM: No. My faith only helps me maintain my courage, and the grace to do my best and live every moment free of fear and anger or negative thinking-even in the middle of a fight.


EMD: In the fourth round you came out laughing. Why were you laughing in the middle of such a brutal fight?


LL: Oh yeah…There was this chick at ringside who had been cheering for me like a maniac nonstop from the beginning of the fight. Even when I was down, and looking like road kill, she was calling my name, and encouraging me. But in the fourth (or was it the fifth?) when I came out she said something about my opponent to the effect that he was basically mine so go get him. But the unique way she phrased it was just so funny, it cracked me up.


EMD: What did she say?


LM: That's a secret.


EMD: Why don't you whisper it in my ear?


LM: I am a prude in mixed company and it was really kind of bawdy. So, I am a little embarrassed to use that kind of shall we say “colorful” phrase especially with Mr. S is standing next to me. But, I laughed in spite of myself. Because the essence of it was so true.

But whoever she was she was there when I needed encouragement the most! I found out later that my Mom had left the arena in tears went down the first time. So this little chick, whoever she was, really stood in the gap for me.


EMD: In the fifth round you were dancing around with your arms down and talking to Mr. S What were you saying?


LM: I don't remember that quite honestly.


EMD He seemed to be taunting you in the first round. Was that paybacks?


LM: A little tit for tat? Sure!


IMD: Is that good sportsmanship?


LM: Of course! It’s just the mental part of the game. You have to beat your opponent mentally too. That's at least half the fight. It’s not personal. That's just fighting. We leave all that in the ring. I just wanted to remind him I was the one dancing and in control at the end.



EMD: So why did you decide to fight against a man?



LM: I would generally prefer a female opponent if possible. I could not afford to be choosy this time. My original female opponent pulled out of the event a few weeks before fight time. And we looked very hard for another 160-pound woman who was ready to turn pro. But, we could not find anyone. And my parents and siblings had already purchased air tickets from Hawaii to Georgia, so I was willing to fight almost anyone they offered me.



EMD: Were you nervous about fighting a man?


LM: No, I was not afraid. But I also had no idea what was in store for me.


EMD You mean because of the power of his punching?



LM: Absolutely. My ribs are still hurting me when I take a breath. I am going to get them x-rayed when I get back to Honolulu. By the way, he had Ko’d a male opponent 18 months before fighting me.



EMD: Well you knocked out Mr. S in spite of his power. How do you explain that?


LM: Yes. Well, I have more fighting skills than he does, and I also outsmarted him strategically. I also whipped him mentally.


EMD: You said women should be very cautious and selective in choosing a male opponent. Did you carefully choose Mr. S?


LM: I am not a fool, and I am not a world-class fighter either. All fighters screen their opponents. But, you didn't know that, did you?


EMD: But, you knew you could beat him, right?


LM: I thought I could beat Mr. S, But I had no guarantee of that. I also knew that he had some strong boxing and kickboxing skills that could present me with a strong challenge. He tested me like I have never been tested before. In fact, he came within one second of knocking me out in the first round. He was no pushover, and it would be very disrespectful to both of us to imply otherwise.


EMD: So, you thought Mr. S had a chance to beat you?


TLM: He had a chance, yes, and he nearly succeeded. Were you not at the fight?



EMD: Are you saying he is the toughest opponent you have ever fought?


LM: Absolutely!



EMD: Have you knocked out all of your opponents?


LM: No. I also have two losses on my record. One was an amateur boxing loss by decision, and the other one was an MMA loss by submission.


EMD: So how can he be the toughest of your opponents if he lost to you, and two people have defeated you?


LM: Mr. Sis not the toughest MMA opponent I have fought. That would be Megumi Yabushita. Mr. S is the toughest boxer I have ever faced and also the toughest kick boxer I have ever faced.


EMD: So you have a boxing loss, and yet Mr. S whom you Kod is a better boxer than the woman who beat you?


LM: Yes, he is.


EMD: Please explain that. It doesn’t make sense.


Mr. Scame within one second of knocking me out. My amateur boxing opponent out pointed me seven years ago, but, she could never stand up to Mr. S's punching power. And I dare say neither could any female I have fought so far.


EMD: What about Ms Yabushita?


LM: I am talking about kickboxing opponents only. Standup striking sports are totally different from MMA. Ms Yabushita would school Mr. S in MMA-as she did me.


EMD: So you are the exceptional woman in kickboxing who could defeat Mr. S?



LM: No. I didn’t say that.


EDS: So what other female kick boxers do you think could also defeat Mr. S ?


LM: I think certainly Germaine de Randamie and Mrs. Parr would be too much for him.


EMD: Any others?


LM: Vivian Leung.




EMD: Isn’t Ms Leung 25 to 30 pounds lighter than Mr. S ?


LM: Yes, but she is also world class and ranked third in the world. Plus, she is much younger and in much better condition. She is considerably faster, and most importantly she has the explosiveness to overwhelm him because she is a very fast starter. If that's not enough, she also has far superior clinching and knee skills. It's a no brainer.


EMD: A no-brainer?



LM: A no-brainer.



EMD: So, you would advise Ms. Leung to take that fight?



LM: I would advise Mr. S NOT to accept that fight.
.


EMD: Will you give Mr. S a rematch?



LM: Sure…if he asks for a rematch, and the promoter wants that to happen…fine!



EMD: Do you think you can beat him again?



LM: Without a doubt!



EMD: By another KO?


LM: By a very quick KO.


EMD: Thank you for your time.


LM: You are welcome.

end of interview
---------------------------------------------------


Marcus, I agree with much of what you say,
but I am puzzled as to why you are so emotionally roused by these fights?

BTW: I could list several fights where the woman won over a less skilled and less experienced man. And many more where the less experienced male kod the female' like Somchai Jaidee vs Lucia Rijker. Or Michale Christophel vs Melita Carnavas (by points)or Joe Hess Ko of Bess Bussey. but I wont fillthe opage with examples of documented male female fights that were not "worked".
(of course of these are obviously choreagraphed, for the pleasure of MEN!)



Dan

Dan you are wise and lucid, i'm not roused by those matches, it's more people and also many female fighters who are roused by these events! i just want to explain that's it's impossible for a woman to win in a fair mixed match, that's all! i even got examples of unexperienced young male fighters who destroyed their opponent female champion!
This interview is very interesting!
but i didn't watch this bout and i didn't hear the male fighter's interview, i never seen them both and i don't know nothing about each other...

All i can understand is that this guy was rough he gave her several good punches ( although he was not in he's prime-3 knockdown, very painful as she says) and at the end she won by ko cause she has better skills , as she says (???????) very strange situation ( no need to be an expert).

If he was so rough and strong with powerful punches why didn't he ko'd her in the first or at least second round!?????
How can this situation be possible?? even the journalist was confused and didn't really understand the progress of the situation ( and he saw the bout), there's also many contradictions and incoherences in this girl's answers... and as i understood there was a lot of fantasy in this match like the girl dancing ( after getting all those "painful punches") etc...
Was this guy really fighting her for winning? was he testing her? was he fooling around and playing with punching her? Was this an arrangment? I don't know...
She said he came in the 1rst round with the intention to ko her!
why didn't he do it? He could have perfectly done it (as she seems to say)...
Who is this old man???????
About Deborah "Sunshine" Fettkether her bout was a real circus act( i saw the vid) she fought a poor clown from the bars ( as i knew: who is used to fight drunk in bars) who had no more skills and strenght than a 15years old boy ( what a shame for a champion like "sunshine")And about ryjker and jaidee the difference was so enormous that he was sparring her on the ring!

You see dan, i understand your will to proove to me that this can happen (and certainly this can happen) but if it happens you must consider all the parameters and also sometimes try to see what there's behind the match!! you'll have to give me much more than this interview!or at least more elements.
Give me vids for example if you have them! this way i won't have to explain so many things in such a long answer!
Friendly.
Marcus.

celine are you marlboro reincarnated?

there is never a need for a man to fight a woman! there are plenty good enough girls out there ready to battle! i have a girlfriend that is a bouncer and she talks about ko'ing men and its bullshit, any man could step on her if he wanted to! i think you sound similar to this girl, talk like scrappy do!

I agree Paul ! I have few examples here i could tell...

paulinthailand


2008-05-20 12:20:37 ( time)


paulinthailand writes:

there are plenty good enough girls out there ready to battle!

===Paul that's not really true for the women who weight 70 kg and over. Look at how many fights these heavier women have compared to the women from 51-57 kg.

I can't begin to tell you how difficult it has been for me to help these women find fights. women in these heavier wt divisions retire in frustration much sooner than those in the more common wt classes who are able to get one and occassionally two fights per year.

I am not saying fighting men is a solution that we should look to asa long term solution, but I do know a lack of suitable female opponents indeed does motivate some women in the heavier wts to give it a shot. And wise or not, it is (in most jurisdictions) their personal choice, and as such, they ought to be allowed to make their own personal decisions without being berated by people who know little or nothing of the people, situation, or circumstances upon which they quickly pronounce judgments (I am not speaking of you btw)

Dan

women will always be better at:

sulking
nagging
crying
shopping

however i would NOT like to get smacked by GDR.

Hi Marcus, per your request, i am hereby furnishing you with the url for the
Irma Schrieber vs Mark Jefferies fight which you requested.
At this same iniquitous url you will find 4 other m /f exhibition/abominations for you to eruditely "analyse".

Now, Marcus, just for fun, let me see if I can predict beforehand the essence of your (no doubt) forthcoming commentary after suffering through
these ungodly abominations. (all in fun mind you)

"Those freaking stupid, impudent biches! If they were fighting "real" men they would have been rightfully lying in a pool of blood,
wallowing comatose in their just deserts.
(But for these contemptible "clowns" who fought them-what nauseating
pathetic chumps they were/are.)
How dare they mispresent and shame our superior male gender!

These fights are fake fantasies, by jingo!!
I just wish those biches would dare to fight ME and my rough and ready
mates who, as I have already stated,
could even Ko Cecile! ( and all the other uppity women like Paul's GF)

These freak shows are disgraceful, abominable, exhibtions
which ought not to be allowed in an enlightened modern society!
(blah, blah, blah" (close quotations)

Here is your url mate, have fun! :)

www.ilovebonnie.net/2008/01/02/top-5-men-vs-women-fighting-videos-online/ - 31k -

BTW: I will answer your your long list of rhetorical
questions about the interview which I so impiously posted
here to deliberate sully and soil your very dispassionate, analytical, and informative thread in an insidious attempt to undermine, if not outright topple the patriarchy.



Take care Buddy,

until tomorrow this time,

Your friend, (really)

dan :)

PPS: avoid 105 lb Anne Quinlan. I got a funny feeling she could whoop you like a rented mule!

"How dare they mispresent and shame our superior male gender!"

Dan: I dont think its a gender issue.
I think its a physics/biology issue.
As stated above its scientifically proven that guys have more fast-twitch muscles and more genetically suited to combat. That is why men used to go out hunting, and women were the gatherers.

With the developments in socio-economics, and women being on a level playing field, this is almost the final frontier of developments with women beating men at combat arts. Sure there will be plenty of women out there that can whoop some blokes arses (believe me, I have been on the end of some of Lisa Houghtons shots), but on a level playing field, I dont think its disrespectful to say that a bloke would beat a woman.

Its like saying that a BMW M3 would beat a Honda Civic in a race. Both are cars, both have powerful engines, just that the BMW is more suited and designed for racing rather than the Honda Civic. Sure a Honda Civic can be tuned to beat a standard M3, but if both have had the same degree of tuning and investment the BMW is just engineered more for purpose.

At the end of the day, as stated on the other thread, it comes down to safety and promotion of the sport. And if a guy, seriously injured a girl, or even killed her, just imagine the impact this would have throughout all combat sports.
I think its irresponsible for mixed gender matches to be promoted.

JMHO

Hi Dan

I got say that I agree with the fact that men are built more suitably for combat. I cant see the need for male V female bouts. What is to be gained from them anyway?

I admit to the fact that there are women out there who could mince some males!!

There are some very well known x champions who have been dropped by me, including a few who ended up being taken off the hosptial, cuts and bust kidney from knees. No shame guys!!!! There was a time when Master Toddy had to make everyone wear head gear!!!!

So blessed with fast-twitch fibres, or common since is the real question!

Thank you Dan for your url!

I've seen this "bout" before .
I'm sorry to get on your nerves once again but i didn't even remember this "match" (and the names of the fighters), it's was so insignificant that i forgot it!
Come on dan! seriously! you know that this guy was not fighting, ok!! i stop, i'm an ugly macho!!
I'm sorry you have such a bad image of me, i'm really not the way you say!
Anyway you have a great imagination about people (you should write books or screenplays for movies, really!!!)

It's silly to come on this forum for getting angry, we are here to talk about our different points of view.That's all

When i say friendly to you it's sincere.
I make videos here in France it's part of my job!
It would be a pleasure for me to make a vid of you when i go to UK.

Friendly.
Marcus.

Ps: excuse my english, is not so good but i do the best i can.

anne q writes

There are some very well known x champions who have been dropped by me, including a few who ended up being taken off the hosptial, cuts and bust kidney from knees

here we go again women giving it the big un!!!! anne what were they champions of tidlywinks? if your sending people to hospital with bust kidneys through sparring you are clearly not sparring correctly. iv sparred 100s of rounds and nobody has ever needed to go to hospital afterwards! im 155lbs you must be made of steel

anne q writes
I admit to the fact that there are women out there who could mince some males!!

absolutly wronge! i have sparred with sheree(uk no2/1), carla hood(was lb4lb uks best femaale), Christina Grønning Kilbinger (won heavy weight gold in the thai kings cup world chapionship) none of these girls bust my kidneys and they are all twice the size of you! all of these girls are fantastic none of them would beat a half decent guy! im sick of hearing this bollox of women fightin men its ridiculous, what man in his right mind would fight a woman any way if you win you beat a woman if you loose you lost to a woman! fighting women im 100% against it but this celine girl il throw her the gauntlet down if she could last 1 round in a fight with me il give her £1000 out of my own pocket, if i knock her out in less than 20 seconds she has to give me £100 and shes not alowed to run for 20 seconds!

Paul reading your message, i think Dan and Anne are gonna be very upset!!

But, that's the truth! that's what i'm desperately trying to explain since the biginning of this topic.
Why girls get so angry and agressive when you say the right things!??
We're not the owners of the truth, but there's a reality and everyone should accept it!
Can anyone tell me where is the pride for girl to say that she beat a guy or sent him to the hospital if she perfectly knows that she wouldn't last half a round with a decent male fighter in the ring????
you're not the first Paul on the forum who tries to make understand that fact with solid and realistic comments, but it seems that there's no way...
I know cases where women died due to critical injuries in mixed boxing matches (one in the US).
This should never happen in kickboxing...

Celine, you who want so much to fight males! I think you already have your next bout...

I think Paul just tells it how it is. And he is right about the sparring - any gym that allows it to go that far is just lining themselves up for a solicitor to wank himself silly into a golden wheelbarrow full of cash whilst wearing a velvet glove. He is also right about it being a no-win situation. Why the f8ck any woman wants to compete in any sport on equal terms with men,may have deep rooted childhood origins in the first place, but the whole point about women and men is we are completely different, men can piss standing up and when we fart its funny, whereas they can tell the difference between magnolia and beige and can't reverse park.
SImple.

lol hawkman

Paul please can you just pretend that i've knocked you out and still give me a thoudand pounds lol

or thousand even

Noi, I enumerated all of your points before you did, very early in this thread. (readthe 7th post) So, really, You are no telling me something I do not already know. I am amazed at all the people who dont ead before they react.

My point takes note of the general phsyical differences,that we BOTH have enumerated and agreed upon in this thread. But I am pointing out that matches are NOT made based on generalities among differnt groups-but are made between two *specific* individuals, with input from their managers.
Moreover they fight in a ring with a refereee who is authorizied to stop any dangerous mismtaches. So, I see no reason for you or I, or any of the other people posting here should be trying to make personal decisions for others. end of.

Here is my earlier post outlining what you said afterward:



www.womenkickboxing.com
2008-05-20 02:06:34 ( time)


dan writes:

RE: The cage fight was between Deborah "Sunshine" Fettkether
That fight was not fake, btw, the guy was technically
outclassed yes. But he had the advantage that all men
have over any woman:

1. Superior muscle mass.Including larger neck muscles
which help absorb a punch.

2. Larger bone structure.

3. Fast Twitch muscles: which means faster reaction times and
greater explosive power, and being a faster starter.

4. More aggresion due to much more Testosterone.

Just my opinion: Its beyond ordinary stupidity to suggest that for such
a fight to be "fair" the woman should fight a male of equal size, and experience. No woman alive past or present
can be competitve under those requirements. That's fair? Not.

Marcus


2008-05-21 13:09:55 ( time)


Marcus writes:

I know cases where women died due to critical injuries in mixed boxing matches (one in the US).

---------------------------------------------------
More bollocks posted on this subject.
Can you give us the name, Marcus. No woman has ever been killed in the usa in an organized fight with a man-inside a ring.

In fact, I know of none anywhere in the world. can you document one?

If you would not fabricate things, or like others repaet ubfounded rumors,
you would be far more persuasive.

Guesswhats about to happen in Phuket on the 28th May

This is taken from Rawai message board:

Female Vs Male .. Thai Boxing Fight ... coming Soon to Phuket

28th May...
Chantal ( female - Italy Vs Male Thailand )


The local fight promoters have informed us that foreign female fighter's @ the other Gyms in Phuket are to scared to fight against the student's @ Rawai Muaythai Camp so for the first time in Thai Boxing history @ Female Vs Male Thai boxing fight will be held @ Bangla Muaythai Stadium - Patong


What a joke some poor local out to earn a quick 4000baht to take a dive against a tourist fighter and to pack the stadium out with paying tourists. I Think

Hi Dan!

I knew this case from an article ( in the us) of a journalist woman who interviewed Ann wolfe, she ( the journalist)clearly related a case of a mixed boxing amateur fight (with headgears!!!! in Minessotta i guess) and the woman died . Of course she din't give any name ( like in your interview...).sorry! i don't have the url anymore ( must make a search...)
For the other it was in philippines related very quickly on tv and by a friend of mine who lived there for a while(BUT, he didn't see the event), and i admit i can not tell exactly what happened!
I was not there, and i didn't see the report or the photos of these dramas...
As you can see Dan i try to be as wise as i can with these facts and i use my "eruditely analyse" (as you say) with each every info i get...
I'm not fabricating anything, i have none interest in doing that!
If these facts really happened : it's tragic!!
I understand that you defend your female fighters and their future in kickboxing, but if you promote these kind of fights you make these girls take some very big risks!

Friendly.
Marcus.

....Shame is, the tourists will believe its genuine.

Wednesday, April 6, 2005 Becky Zerlentes, 34, died on Sunday, April 3 in what was to be her last boxing match before retirement. The match, a Colorado State Golden Gloves bout, was held in Denver on April 2. Her opponent for the senior women's title in that match was Heather Schmitz, 32.

Zerlentes received a knockout punch in the third round by a straight blow to her left temple. She received immediate attention from ringside physicians, but never regained consciousness, even after being admitted to Denver General Hospital for emergency surgery on Saturday night. She expired on Sunday due to blunt-force trauma injuries received to the head, resulting in a blood clot on the brain.

Her opponent Heather Schmitz met with reporters and expressed her regret, saying, "I didn't want to hurt her. I feel very bad about that."

"Nobody thought it was a very hard blow," said Jeanne DePriest, manager of Zerlentes' team. "We've been talking to people all day trying to find out what happened." Zerlentes was wearing her required protective headgear at the time of the accident.

Several commentators have remarked on the coincidental similarities between Zerlentes' death and the events depicted in the recent Oscar-winning film, Million Dollar Baby, in which a character becomes quadriplegic as a result of a spinal cord injury suffered during her last fight.

USA Boxing oversees the sport of amateur, Olympic-style boxing in America, as a member organization of the International Amateur Boxing Association (AIBA). The non-profit organization has overseen men's amateur boxing since 1888, but has only admitted women to the sport since 1993. There are currently 2,200 registered women boxers, according to USA Boxing, and interest in the sport is increasing.

"The USA Boxing family's thoughts and prayers go out to Becky's family and husband. We are deeply saddened by this loss," said Sandy Martinez-Pino, president of USA Boxing.

In the aftermath of Zerlentes' tragic death, the USA Boxing authorities have continued to affirm their high level of safety precautions and close oversight of the sport's conditions and equipment. According to their website, amateur boxing was ranked 23rd in rate of injuries, behind soccer and gymnastics (National Safety Council, 1996) and 8th in rate of sports-related fatalities, behind football and scuba diving (Boxing and Medicine, Human Kinetics Illinois, 1995).

Zerlentes had an amateur record of 6-4 (6 wins to 4 losses), and was a former regional boxing champion with several brown belts in martial arts. She had a PhD in Geography from the University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign and was an Adjunct Instructor in geography at Front Range Community College in Colorado. She is survived by a husband and family.

That was the woman who died when something went horribly horribly wrong.It happens in both genders codes, and it did eventuate that one government reacted immediately to this event by banning woman from fighting altogether...

If... it had been a man that was the person that landed the reportedly "soft blow" that caused the death than what would the reaction have been ??? Hard to defend such an event in any language or culture isn't it.

Marcus, there have been NO deaths in the USA from intergender fights in a ring. Period. It would have been big news here around the world (as Norm says) if there had been.

As I suspected, you have no facts to support either of your claims tot he contrary.

FYI: You Anne Wolfe was going to fight a man named Stephan Johnson here in the USA, until I persuaded her manager, (Brian Pardo) not to permit it. (not because Anne couldnt take this guy, or becasue it was "dnagerous" but because a possible loss would have ruined her possibly big money fight with Laila Ali-which sadly didnt happen.

As for the Phillipines, again I have to question the rumor you are repeating.
FYI: it wasnt until about 18 months ago that President Gloria Macapagal Arroyo approved the right for women to box in the Phillipines.

I know this because my partner who is president of our womens boxing org, (WIBA) Ryan Wissow had to lobby GMA and the Phillipine sports commission.

BTW, the two women who died in the usa in *boxing* fights (not KB) fights with other *women* were both wearing head gear and fighting with 16 oz gloves. so much for the safety freaks. Stuff happens.

imo, KB and MT is much safer than pro or am boxing because the blows are not so concentrated to the head, and the KB stances dont allow for the same leverge of punches.

I am getting tired of arguing with your irresponsible insistence on repeating unfounded rumors. Post again when you have some documented facts.

correction: NOT *Stephan* Johnson it was James (not stephan) Johnson

heres the article: http://ijo.typepad.com/keeping_score/boxing/index.html
http://ijo.typepad.com/keeping_score/boxing/index.html
http://sports.propeller.com/story/2006/10/16/tyson-returning-to-ring-may-fight-women


Mike Tyson might outweigh Ann Wolfe by 60 pounds, but that hardly makes the female boxer a lightweight. According to Ann Wolfe's website, the fighter is currently 24-1. Widely considered to be the hardest puncher in women's boxing, Wolfe has, according to her bio on the Women's Boxing Archive Network, "overcome homelessness, unemployment and being hit by a car while walking on Interstate 35 to become one of the top professional boxers in the United States."

She's also at least flirted with fighting men in the past. Wolfe was reportedly scheduled to fight boxer James Johnson in August 2005, but the fight never happened; in this interview, Wolfe's PR rep says Wolfe and Johnson never signed a contract. Wolfe was then scheduled to take on fighter Bo Skipper on either October 15 or December 2, 2005, although aside from this press release announcing the fight, I can't find record that it ever actually happened.

In the same interview linked above, Wolfe explains that she's essentially only interested in fighting men because she's gotten to the point where she actually has to pay other female fighters to get in the ring with her; the only other female boxer considered to be at Wolfe's level is Laila Ali, who has repeatedly refused Wolfe's invitations to fight.

"This isn't t about women's boxing, this is about Ann Wolfe," she said. "What am I supposed to do, just retire? This is not about me fighting a man, this has something to do with me still having fight left in me, boxing saved my life."

In response to the suggestion that putting a man and a woman in the ring together amounts to a "circus act", Wolfe responded, "I understand what they are saying because [in sports such as golf, where men compete against women] them girls arenâ getting punched in their face, I understand on both sides. [But] when I get into the gym I can out run, out lift and out train a whole bunch of guys... I am trying to feed my children and that is no circus act."



.

Hi dan!
I agree,i'll post again when i have some documented facts!

About Ann wolfe, you've been wasting your time posting this last message, I know the WHOLE story (James Johnson and Bo Skipper) !!

Read this Dan it might also interest you:

James Johnson: “I will prove why women shouldn’t fight men – Ann Wolfe couldn’t beat 50% of James Johnson!”
Interview by "Big Dog" Benny Henderson Jr. (June 28, 2005)

Whether you agree or disagree on a male versus female bout in boxing, in which I disagree, the one thing you can’t deny is that the guy who steps out and actually accepts that challenge has to have a wheelbarrow full of balls or just plain doesn’t give a hoot about what the critics say.

Well, say hello to ‘Gentleman’ James Johnson, the guy who doesn’t own a wheelbarrow but could care less what may spew out of the naysayers mouths. Ann Wolfe said she would do it, the Mississippi Athletic Commission has approved it and James Johnson will accept it. Yes, on August 20th at the Mississippi Coast Coliseum in Biloxi, MS to the dismay and dislike of many fight fans veteran James Johnson, 18-14-2 (11), will face off against Ann Wolfe, 20-1 (14); yes, Ann Wolfe, the female boxer.

No, this isn’t the first time a man and woman has fought one another, but this will probably be the most publicized and that is why James Johnson is taking this fight. Publicizing this bout brings opportunity to Johnson’s career – at least in his eyes it does. But is it good publicity? NO! But any publicity to James is well worth the ride.

The Texas native who now resides out of Louisiana laced up the gloves at the young age of nine years old, and his twenty years of boxing has taught him a few things, when you see an opportunity you grab it and run with it. That philosophy has bit him in the butt a few times in the past, managing himself at one time the youngster would take fights that wasn’t necessarily good for himself at that particular time. After smashing out a stellar amateur career that had him competing in nearly one hundred bouts and earning him a Silver Medal in the National Junior Olympics and a Bronze in the National PAL tournament, James stepped in the pro ranks in 1999. In his first year as a pro fighter Johnson banged out a 6-1-2 record, all seemed going well for the pugilist but the L’s started coming one after another. Traveling to his opponent’s hometown earned him the losing end of many close decisions while being over matched in other bouts proved almost fatal, despite all Johnson kept slugging it out, even enough to strap on the WBF Americas Welterweight Title.

In his eight years as a pro Johnson has faced the likes of Richard Savage, Yuri Foreman, Sechew Powell, Bronco McKart and Lou Del Valle, all losing efforts, but nevertheless he gave an effort. James doesn’t mind the criticism, he has thick skin and can take verbal punishment along with physical punishment as well, but how would he take losing to a girl?

He says there is no way he would lose to a girl, even if that girl is the hard-hitting Ann Wolfe. Why take on a girl? Why take the abuse from the critics and boxing world to do so? What can James Johnson gain from this experience? In this exclusive interview James Johnson talks to the Doghouse and gives his reasoning on accepting the Battle of the Sexes match-up, enjoy.


BH: OK, I want to ask what prompted you to take this fight with Ann Wolfe, what are you gaining from this experience?

JJ: She called me out; out of all the thousands of light heavyweights in the world Ann Wolf called the name “Gentleman” James Johnson. Here I am doing my thing in boxing and she can’t find a woman to box so she wanted to fight a man and she called me out. Hey, I am a professional fighter and I fight for money, if the promoter makes the money right I will fight King Kong. She called me out.

BH: Some would look at this situation as a lose/lose situation for yourself, you win, you beat a girl, you lose and you get beat by a girl, what are your thoughts?

JJ: I look at this the same way, if I go in there and knock her out, well then they say I knocked a woman out, exactly. Well, if I lost to her then my career would be pretty much over because I lost to a woman, but on the other hand I get a chance to make history and to prove a point. I have the chance to be the one person in the world to prove why this should not be done. When it is all over and done with I will have been the one to prove why men should be fighting men and women should be fighting women. Like I said she called me out.

BH: Why do you think she called you amongst all the other guys?

JJ: In her mind she thinks I am a tomato can, but I am going to make this statement and prove her wrong.

BH: What are your friends and family saying about this fight?

JJ: I was against the fight at first, and people were like what if you lose to a woman, well to start with I am not going to lose to her! She is not stronger than me, shoe doesn’t hit harder than me and she doesn’t take a better punch than me. Everybody says that she hits so hard and she takes such a good punch, she hits hard against a woman and she has been taking punches from women. I know I am not the hardest puncher but I do have very good power and I have good hand speed. I asked my wife about this fight, boxing just isn’t about me anymore; I do it for my family now. I asked her opinion on it and she said James she called you out so beat her ass! (Laughs) So hey I got permission. I have never hit a woman in my life, but when I get in the ring it won’t be a woman in front of me. When I fight I don’t see a fighter in front of me, all I see is an animal and we are going to war and may the best animal win.

BH: You never said you hit a woman before, so how do you mentally prepare for this bout because this is a girl.

JJ: I will go to camp and train as I always do and I can’t go wrong.

BH: Will you be sparring with women?

JJ: I will be sparring with men, I will nor be sparring with any women, I don’t want to get used to holding back because I am not going to hold back on her.

BH: There has been some criticism on this Male versus Female match up, what response would you give to the critics on this bout that could convince them that this fight is acceptable?

JJ: You have these different sports; you have Indy racing and a woman racing with the men. You have a woman golfer playing in the PGA with the men, all these women are competing with men so why not let this woman compete as well? I am not going to fully support this but I have my reasons for doing this. There is going to be endless opportunities for me with all this exposure, this is good for me because I have lost some fights because I have taken some stupid fights. I will be the first man to do this and I will be bale to prove why this should or shouldn’t be done.

BH: Is there anything about Ann that concerns you coming into this fight?

JJ: No there is nothing that concerns me, everybody says that she is half man; well if she is half man then I am all man. So nothing concerns me. She hits hard, well she hits woman hard, she has been taking punches from women, I have seen her fight live before and I seen how Sunshine who can’t crack and egg had both of her eyes swollen, now imagine if I hit her. You personally just saw what I did to nearly a 6’4” light heavyweight who is a man who can take a punch.

BH: Are you worried that this fight will cast a shadow over your career; I mean from now on you will be known as the guy who fought a woman?

JJ: Look at it this way, after I defeat her, look at all these fighters and promoters and top rated contenders, they will say hey look he knocked the number one woman out let’s see if he can knock me out. All this is going to do is open opportunities. If I were to lose then that would cast a shadow, but I am not going to lose, so I am not worried about this one bit.

BH: If Ann were reading this interview, what would you say to her?

JJ: (Laughs) Well I can’t say may the best man win, so hey, may the best warrior win. I am confident in my ability and like I said she chose me and I will prove to the world why she shouldn’t have.

BH: Is there anything you would like to add in closing?

JJ: I am more focused and I am more determined than ever than I ever have been in my career. I have a great management team and Brian Young as a promoter so I have great people behind me now and there are endless opportunities for my career now. So look out because I am coming for the number one spot! And as far as Ann Wolfe, I am not going to even work hard in the gym for this fight because I am confident in my ability and she can’t beat me, Ann can’t beat fifty percent of James Johnson.

I want to thank James Johnson for his thoughts it is greatly appreciated. Stay tuned for an interview with the lady boxer in this match-up when Ann Wolfe steps in the Doghouse to tell her side to this story.
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Sorry Dan! i forgot this one:

MISSISSIPPI ATHLETIC COMMISSION HAS OKAYED A BOUT BETWEEN ANN WOLFE AND A MALE BOXER TO BE ANNOUNCED








Mr. Jon Lewis
Mississippi Athletic Commission
P.O. Box 6585
Byram, MS 39272

Re: Female Boxer v. Male Boxer

Dear Mr. Lewis:

It has come to the attention of the Association of Boxing Commissions that the Mississippi Athletic Commission has approved a professional boxing contest between Ann Wolfe and a "TBA" male boxer which currently is scheduled to be held on August 20, 2005 at the Mississippi Coast Coliseum in Biloxi, Mississippi.

Please be advised that the Association of Boxing Commissions, of which the Mississippi Athletic Commission is a member, staunchly abhors the sanctioning of a professional boxing contest between a male boxer and a female boxer; and the ABC vehemently recommends that the Mississippi Athletic Commission withdraw its approval of such a bout.

A boxing contest between a male and a female raises inherent safety concerns, as the potential for serious injury in such a boxing contest is far greater than in a male v. male or female v. female boxing contest. Such concerns are premised upon the significant differences in strength, speed and ability to take a punch. Moreover, the bones in a female are thinner and have less calcium, especially the skull and nose; and a female's brain is not as well equipped as a male's to endure the same force of a punch to the head.

Many state and tribal boxing commissions which are members of the Association of Boxing Commissions have promulgated regulations expressly prohibiting a male v. female professional boxing contest. Presuming the absence of such a regulation in Mississippi, in the interests of the health and safety of the boxers, as well as in the interests of integrity and fairness in the sport of professional boxing, the Association of Boxing Commissions trusts that the Mississippi Athletic Commission will act in accordance with this letter.

I have been authorized to state that the American Association of Professional Ringside Physicians has expressed similar concerns regarding the safety and the protection of female boxers if authorized to fight a male boxer.

Very truly yours,

Tim Lueckenhoff

President

cc: Dr. Flip Homansky
Greg Sirb
Bruce Spizler

6-20-2005

OK!! Dan, i hope this time i gave you enough documented facts!!!

Friendly.
Marcus.

Marcus


2008-05-22 15:01:00 ( time)


Marcus writes:

Sorry Dan! i forgot this one:

MISSISSIPPI ATHLETIC COMMISSION HAS OKAYED A BOUT BETWEEN ANN WOLFE AND A MALE

OK!! Dan, i hope this time i gave you enough documented facts!!!

Friendly.
Marcus.


===Marcus, what I actually want is documentation of your claim that a woman died in a ring fight with a man in the usa and the Phillpines-neither of which is true. But thats probably unfair since that rumor is untrue. There's no way if that actually happened that it would not have made news world wide.

BTW: I kno what Tim L. said about Anne Vs Johnson. I also know that the chairman of the Missippi commission claimed to have actually sparred with Anne before agreeing she would be a fair matchup with James Johnson.

In retrospect, I am profoundly sorry that I talked Anne's manager out of accepting this fight to clear the way for a million payday with Laila Ali -since Laila subsequently refused the fight with Anne.

As result of my meddling, Anne lost a 90k payday with James Johnson-not a bad purse for a single mom who has to fight to make a living. I am very sorry
for that. .

I am afraid Anne may have retired due to an inability to find female opponents. But wait... Maybe, just maybe, the guys in this thread who are offering money to any woman who can last a round with them, would like to test Anne Wolfe and take home an "easy" 5,000 pounds?? :)

Thats a pretty good payday even for a little ass whoopin at the hands of a woman on tv.

I could probably hook them up for 10% of their purse. That would leave 4500 lbs plus travel expenses and accomadations for one fighter and his trainer. Heck, for 10% I would work very hard to get the guy more than that. :)


Dan

PPSL: I know Germaine would be happy to test them if Anne is permanently retired.

i never tried to say i was a boxer, im sure 99% of the people that come on here agree totally with my coment, let me knee her in the face and il still take that at a massive weight dis-advantage and $5000! do you get a hard on over women boxing? you ever fought yourself or is it just a fetish? like muscle worship!

hook it up dan il fight her muay thai!! il back up everything iv ever said!

Dan! i agree and i told you clearly before that i don't have any documents on these facts !the american journalist told that it was a mixed match but unfortunately i don't have the documents!! if i get them ( for phillipines too) i promise i'll send them to you.

About Tim L. he has tested Wolfe with headgears ( right!!???) and he also said that he gave her his best shots ( with headgears of course...) who would have knockdown several males. Sorry Dan but a male never gives his best shots in sparring or in a test , he gives his best shots in the ring in a real bout for 10 000$!!!
I only think that this guy wanted to help Ann for this bout...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 20 August at the Mississippi Coast Coliseum convention centre in Biloxi, Mississippi, Wolfe will fight her first male opponent for a purse of $100,000 (£55,000). The fight is to be shown live throughout America and will, she hopes, give momentum to a stalled career. She and her manager plan to select a man who is of equal weight and similar style to her 162lb and 5ft 9in, with a solid record. Neither fighter will wear a headguard, though Wolfe will have a chest-protector under her Lycra top - the standard plate that all women boxers wear. 'I want a guy who will box me as a fighter, not as a woman,' she tells me at the Ann Wolfe Gym in the troubled suburb of Manor on the north-eastern outskirts of Austin, Texas. 'The people who come along and those who watch it on pay-per-view will get their money's worth. I need a chance to show my skills, to show the world what I can really do. This won't be no sideshow.'
She has support from boxing officials. John Lewis, Mississippi Athletic Commission chairman and himself a former fighter, has sparred with Wolfe and is impressed. 'She's a top-ranked fighter, if not the best [woman] in the world. She's someone we feel safe with doing this [fighting a man]. She probably could win against a man. She's that tough.'

Born on 17 January 1971, Wolfe grew up in poverty in Oberlin in rural Louisiana. As a child, she hauled buckets of water and piles of firewood because the family home - 'basically a shack on the bayou' - had no running water or heating. She had one pair of shoes and left school, at the age of 11, to find work. Her parents died when she was in her late teens: her mother, a strict Methodist, from cancer, while her father, like one of her brothers, was murdered. At different times, she has been homeless as well as in prison for dealing dope and crack. 'My mother was an angel, my father was the devil,' she says. 'I sat in prison and thought, "This is not what my mother would have wanted".'

Wolfe moved to Austin to escape 'all the bad people I hung out with in Louisiana', where she would beat people up if they owed her money for drugs. But once in Texas she could find nowhere to live. She and her two young daughters lived together under a tree, scrambling for survival. 'I would offer to sweep the Burger King car park if the staff would give my kids breakfast,' she recalls.

One afternoon nine years ago, she wandered into the Montopolis boxing gym in Austin, saw the guys sparring and thought: 'I can do that.' There she met the respected amateur coach Don 'Pops' Billingsley. She has worked with him ever since, turning professional in October 1998.

In person, she is gentle, candid and softly spoken. She has become an inspiration to the youngsters, both boys and girls, who gather at her gym to train and spar. Yet when she puts on the gloves, Wolfe is transformed. 'To face her in the ring is seriously intimidating,' says boxer Cassandra Geiggar, from Arkansas. 'She has so much power and so much raw talent. Every time she fights she whoops them a new ass.'

paulinthailand


2008-05-22 17:10:07 ( time)


paulinthailand writes:

i never tried to say i was a boxer,

===Ok! Anne isn't a Thai boxer either. I just thought maybe since men are so much tougher and stronger than any woman, that you could easily take her boxing also. But I think i understand your position, so kindly disregard.


dan
.

Marcus


2008-05-22 17:15:13 ( time)


Marcus writes:

About Tim L. he has tested Wolfe with headgears ( right!!???)

===Marcus, you dont read, you just react. Tim L is past 70 years of age. re-read what I posted.==


dan

Ok! Dan i kown wolfe's life enough!!

Why are defeating Paul to these kind of matches?
Do you know him ? Do you know his experience? his level?
I know what he did before! i've seen vids of him and he told me his expierience!

I think wolfe would feel very bad in front of him!!
Germaine??? no need to talk...

Dan

I support Womens MT and boxing, always have. But I dont see where this is going or what it proves?

At very best all this will prove is that the very best of the best in Womens Muay Thai or Boxing can beat an aging mediocre male that wouldnt stand a chance against the top class males in his sport.

I watched a 14 year old boy give a full grown adult a technically brilliant beating the other day in my gym in the sparring class....

...But I dont want to start promoting Junior verses Adult fights just to see how well they might do.

Dave Jackson


2008-05-22 17:47:19 ( time)


Dave Jackson writes:

Dan

I support Womens MT and boxing, always have. But I dont see where this is going or what it proves?

At very best all this will prove is that the very best of the best in Womens Muay Thai or Boxing can beat an aging mediocre male that wouldnt stand a chance against the top class males in his sport.

-----------------------------------------------
Thanks Dave. I totally agree with what you just said. Of course it proves nothing! But then neither does any fight-except who was better on the night.

Dave, I am not crazy about these matches either, for physiological reasons which you will note I stated for the record before anyone else in this ridiculous thread. I might add I did not, nor would have ever been stupid enough to create such a juvenile thread in the first place.


But still, I did foolishly permit myself to get sucked into this thing by a couple of people who were very disrespectful and rude to Cecile and Anne Quinlan-both of whom just stated an opinion only to be taunted and ridiculed be these two individuals who are clearly feel threatened by these exhibitions.

It does seems to me that Cecille, Anne Quinlan and Muay Tiger should have a right to a different opinon without some cheap shot artist having a go at them.

I also as a matter of principle object to people deliberately fabricating "facts" -or irresponsibly passing on unfounded rumors as fact. I tried to set the record straight-which was also a big mistake.


I will let the matter drop without further comment. Thanks for your
fair minded moderation.



dan

I find myself in agreement with Dan. If they want to fight then let them! Sure it proves nothing, but then what does? Id watch two on one contests too - as long as they were close fights. Its a case of the matchmaking to make a good fight. The n its all about the fight. I like fights ;-)

im getting dizzy from this! we would never come to an agreement, this anne wolf lady sounds like a good person that has had it hard.

dan wrights
rude to Cecile and Anne Quinlan-both of whom just stated an opinion only to be taunted and ridiculed be these two individuals who

its because they said ridiculous comments dan!

im over this its doing my head in! these figths would be classed as a freak show and do no good for the people involved or the sport!

celine writes

suffering a brutal ko does not stop a real fighter and danger is what we are used to live with in the ring.

this to me sounds like something from a rocky film or a kung-fu movie! it makes my skin crawl, she probably never had a fight. what anne q said about popping peoples livers or what ever was why she got some jip!

OK Dan! i think there's nothing left to say! you are right!!! Do what you want!

Only one thing... I've never been disrespecful with anyone on this thread ! right ??
I never disrespected Cecile, YOU or anybody else, the only thing i've done was to expose my opinions ( this is my right too! dear Dan!!)Yes, i posted two facts which i didn't documented ! SO WHAT??? i told you i'll look for it ...
At reverse you didn't hesitate many times to humiliate me with you 40 and 47kg women,, with slapping around norm's wife, with telling Noi: the frenchman , he's unknow..., my retoric, etc, etc...( and many more) YES i'm french!!! SO WHAT?????

I don't think you act in the right way with this attitude!
When i said "friendly" this meant: your friend!!!!!
I was sincere! not you obviously...

Remember nobody, neither you is the owner of the truth! you defend a very delicate position! and it's not with this attitude that you will get supports, respect or honors!
YOU FRIEND.
Marcus.

Hey Paul, I really am going to keep my promise to the moderator and
not comment further on this issue. We have both had our say.

I am sure if we met personally we would probably agree on more things
than we disagree on.

Most women dont grow up with the same opportunities and exposure to
contact sports that men do. So It takes a lot more guts (imo) for a
woman to even take up fighing in a gym-much less in a ring.

So, maybe for Cecile, (whom I dont know) fighting seems like a much bigger
risk than it does to you.(I dont think English is her first language,
so her choice of words may sound more dramatic than she intended.

I also think some of the comments I read here and other places are
stupid. for example: Headgear!
\
I believe head gear have the potential to cause far more damage than protection. But some people whom I really respect actually think headgear afford protection.

I had lots of experience with mandatory head gear for the army's boxing team nearly 40 years ago and have strong opinions. But I STILL wont insult these head gear guys even though I think their arguments on the subject of headgear are kind of "stupid" But I also know they are NOT stupid *people*

Paul I really would prefer to end this conversation on a positive note.
So lets agree to disagree on the right to make choices about
who to fight or not fight. Fair enough ?


Best of luck to you.

dan

Marcus: ditto what I said to Paul.

I have no problem with the French People ("Frenchmen") .
Our two countries have a great
mutual history and relationship and everytime I go to NYC, I see that magnificent statute in NY harbor given to my country by your country as a token of friendship. Lets end it that way.

In the future, if you will show me some respect, (and the lady fighters also) I'll try to return that courtesy to you.


Have the last word,


Dan

Thank you Dan!

Friendly.
Marcus.

high 5 guys!