Nz Rankings

Hi I need to know your opinion of the top 5 rankings for each weight devision in Nz men & women

Can you help me out.

Also need to know if there is anyone in NZ that holds a WMC title amature
current.

Sue

you can click on my profile to see the rankings of the top 200+ heavyweights in the world.

here are the kiwis.

World Ranking Name, country code
2 Ray Sefo, NZL
8 Mark Hunt, NZL
52 Andrew Peck, NZL
54 Ron Sefo, NZL
69 Doug Viney, NZL
70 Auckland Aumitagi, NZL
119 Jason Suttie, NZL
129 Clay Aumitagi, NZL
149 Hiriwa Te Rangi, NZL
158 Hape Ngaronoa, NZL
167 Mita Aporo, NZL
210 Paul Kingi, NZL
211 Sio Vitale, NZL
212 Keri Karena, NZL

Sue, I remember someone else asked for the same info on this board about a year ago. Can't remember the details but trainers were asked to name the top 5 (I think) in each weight category. People came back with various opinions but never heard or saw anything else about it. Maybe Barry, Mark or someone else can remember more. If you can find the previous info, it would make your job a lot easier now.

BTW when do you leave to go back up north? We'll have to catch up before you go.

Hey Sue, Nick Tangatoa (Balmoral leegar) holds the WMC NZ light Middlewight title

Shane Cornish (Zero Tolerance) Holds the WMC NZ Super MiddleWeight Title

I hold the WMC NZ MiddleWeight title

Lollo will know more title holders, as I believe he is the WMC representative in New Zealand.

Hey felix, with your rankings how come Jason is ranked below Andrew peck, Dougie and Ronnie, as he has beaten all of them in either the NZ K1 or K1 Oceania.

I've asked him this before, Richie and it's because he only counts the first fight of a tournament (Jason bet all the other guys in semi finals or finals).

Felix, as I've said before, though, you would be extremely hard pressed to find a kiwi fight fan willing to say that Jason is only the 7th best heavyweight in the country! I still say he should at least take Auckland's spot because he beat Auckland in a one off fight for the WMTA world title. Also, how come he doesn't at very very least take Nakasako's #103 spot as he defeated him in the 1st round of the Oceania?

matman,

jason fought tsuyoshi tajima in melbourne.
otherwise, as you said, i have to wait until he fights someone ranked higher outside the semi or final of a tournament.

i forget who suttie was originally matched up against in melbourne but it was a good one. then about a week before the event his opponent was changed and he was defending his rank against tajima. sad, i wanted to see him go up as much as anyone. still i wait and wait and wait.

Felix, was it Paris Vasikolis??(spelling?)

I got the wmtc welter weight pro title sue! thanks Rexy

jon,

that sounds familiar and paris is #28 which would have put jason in a comfortable third spot in nzl. oh well. gotta wait.

Felix

Those ratings are crap & your explination of why jason is ranked as you have him is'int much better.
Jason Suttie is a 5 times World champion in 5 different weight Divisions & you got him ranked at 119?????????
what ever way you calculate your ratings sure needs to be re-avaluated!!!

Highlander,

I think Felix's rankings are more of a record of what has happened than a tool to predict who would win a given fight. What they show more than anything is how unpredictable the heavyweight fight game can be.

Felix himself would be the first to tell you that he would expect Jason Suttie to beat most of the Kiwis ranked above him. The same goes for lots of guys on the list. But if Felix simply made a list of who Felix thought was the best noone would be all that interested. By setting some exact rules about how the list works he has come up with something a bit different, that adds a bit more flavour to all of our discussions about who would beat who.

Cheers
Ben

thanks ben.

highlander,

if the rankings are crap then so is the heavyweight division today. the rankings i keep are more like the basketball or football rankings you see in the newspaper than the wbc, wba or ibf rankings. they are objective and, although i set up the rules, they are really out of my hands.

jason jason jason. would you believe that i've heard more complaints about jason not being in the top 100 than bob sapp being #1 and gary goodridge being #8. make that bob and gary combined.

5 weight divisions? this list is only heavyweight.

5 times world champion? if he beats mirko filipovic, he become 6 time world champion.

in truth, i don't think jason really cares about this list. if he did, his handlers would bring errol parris from NED or andrew thompson from RSA and get him his rank. as for now, jason's matchmakers are pretty happy with him defending the #119 rank against lower ranked opponents.

Felix, I agree. I think that Jason is focussed on his goal of making it to the Tokyo dome and not on your rankings. In striving to achieve this goal he has fought and beaten a number of fighters who are ranked higher than him eg. Doug, Ron, Andrew, Peter Graham, Auckland etc. I also understand why Jason does not rate higher according to your system and respect your integrity in maintaining the list in accordance with the rules you have set. However, I think that the fact that so many people have reacted to Jason's ranking shows that the system you have set up has flaws in accurately reflecting the performance and ability of the fighters on the list. According to your system, Jason could have won the K-1 Oceania and still stayed at #119 (if he had then lost against Greco). I applaud the intention and agree with the need but think that your system needs some fine tuning. Your comment about Errol Paris and Andrew Thompson would seem to suggest that you recognise that the rankings that the system has produced are not in touch with reality.

Oh yeah, you're right too - I had the wrong tsuyoshi.

Sue, sorry - your question has got a bit lost here (my fault as much as anyone). Hopefully we can get back to it now.
"I need to know your opinion of the top 5 rankings in NZ men & women"

yeah. sorry sue. i hope you can look on the bright side and say "at least my thread is getting bumped to the top."

"I think that the fact that so many people have reacted to Jason's ranking shows that the system you have set up has flaws in accurately reflecting the performance and ability of the fighters on the list."

most people assume that a ranking list is a judgement of a fighters future performance. i have never stated that about my list. in fact i have openly and repeatedly denied it.


"According to your system, Jason could have won the K-1 Oceania and still stayed at #119 (if he had then lost against Greco). "

greco is unranked at the moment. if suttie lost to greco [not including a semi or final match of a tournament of course], jason would fall 5 ranks and greco would take the #119 rank as he would a title.

"Your comment about Errol Paris and Andrew Thompson would seem to suggest that you recognise that the rankings that the system has produced are not in touch with reality."

actually, these rankings very much are in touch with reality. thompson did indeed defeat abidi. parris then defeated thompson. what would happen or what will happen is speculation, not reality.

my utopia is where a guy like andrew thompson can step in the ring with abidi and knock him out. then his manager has the phone ring off the hook. iggy offers $50,000 for the fight. van dams offers $54,000. duncan james offers $130,000. gary turner...

now the list is only 3 years old, but i'm sure you can imagine what it will be like in a few years.

Every system has flaws and this is no exception - for every rule one creates their will be an anomoly or a way around it.

In this case although I don't agree with the rankings in Felix's ratings they can't be accused of being subjective or reactive.

The rules are set and the ranking move accordingly.

One question for Felix

Jason has beaten Auckland in a One off WMTC world title match - how come Jason doesn't get that rank ?

I have also beaten Hiriwa and have only lost to Jason and Peter Graham - but I don't even have a rank (HAHA shamless self promotion)are these rankings only applied to K-1 match ups?

Hape and Mita aren't fighting anymore to my knowledge so how come they are still ranked

Andrew Peck loast a fight in Croatia to Daniel Marhold but I don't see Marhold ranked and that was an event held under the K-1 banner? (Mind you Andrew was beating the bejesus out of him until he threw the hail mary Hay maker!!!)

Sue My Top 10 pound for pound:

Ray Sefo
Choppa Chapman
Mark Hunt
Jason Suttie
Jordon Tai
Ron Sefo
Jayson Vermoa
Dave Gahn
Rex Rumble
Eddie Tongalahi

which to me says

We need no blood coming through becasue the next few

Daniel Tai
Rapheal Tai
Steve and Nick Misich
Aaron Boyes
John Conway
Chris Johnson
Andrew Peck
Dogie Viney
Sio Vitale
Jope White
Prince Hamid
Mike Angove (yes even me)

have either yet to make the step up to genuine World class level or Tripped at the hurdle (with the exception of Nick, Seve and Rebel - who are semi retired but were a handful for anyone in their peak)even Eddie has yet to put on a World class perfromance in his come back

In the Girls well in my mind only Sue and Julie are real international class the remainder very good nationally but not the next step ...


In summary - we need to get off our complacent buts and work bloody hard because when these guys retire their is going to be a huge gap back the next teir

Some guys like Shannon Foreman, Nick Tungatoa, Aaron Dixon, Sonny Moa, Sefa Fue, Richie HArdcore and co are still a wee way off but where is our next Ray Sefo, our next Choppa or Jason Suttie ....

Not meaning to be rude - but compared to the depth in Aussie we need to work bloody hard or we will have a drought very soon ...

Here is a topic created to discuss Felix's Rankings.

You are right there Felix; Jason wouldn’t care about your rankings he doesn’t care for other fighters’ reps as well. This is one reason Jason is a winner. He doesn’t care what you think all anyone else thinks. Jason only answers to himself and would fight any of the fighters ranked above him and beat most.
A ranking system is made up of a team/group to prevent bias

Perhaps we should start with generating a list of all acitve fighters with X number of fights or more in each division. That should make the number's more manageable.

Then we can look at some kind of method of ranking them.

I've been wathcing fights for a looooong time now and have seen HEAPS of fighters come and go but would find it pretty hard to even list 10 active fighters in each division let alone rank them.

So, how about we have the trainers list their active fighters and their prefered fighting weights. Then we can discuss, in a civilised manner, the ranks :)

john,

when jason does defeat one of the above fighters [fresh], he will take that fighter's rank. he is definately not the victim of bias, i assure you.

Just read Mike's post and I agree - in a few years NZ will be short of credible fighters. Don't know so much about the guys (sorry guys) but I agree with Mike in that Julie and Sue have proved they are international class. We have to encourage more international fights for the next level of girls i.e. national title holders to give them more experience and also to see how competitive NZ is on an international level. This also applies to the guys. Oceana is the place to be these days and NZ should take advantage of the fact that we are so close to some really good fighters. We also have to encourage the newer fighters to carry on. So many people will have a couple of fights then we don't hear about them again. K1 has been good in promoting the sport, now it's down to us to carry it on.

As for rankings - Sue, what criteria should we use to rank fighters. I understand that everyone's opinions will be different but if we have a common base it may make things more standardised.

Cath

not the best way but seems to work is get whoever is promoting to put the title up for a show , once someone holds that title you soon find others wating to challenge.

That soon sorts out whos who

The problem is with all sanctioning bodies that people with the titles are not allways the best in their respective weight division but are a good start

As for no credible fighters coming through this could be a bit strong,

I have at least two who will make a mark on the scene inNZ and overseas

Mark Spencer has fought most welterweights in NZ and defeated them as an amatuer

Gareth lewis will surprise a few on the heavyweight scene if i can continue to find fights for him

After numerous email phone calls and threads on here i could not find him a fight in his weight division 9o to 92 kgs so he takes on Oliver Tuisifia at 110 kgs nov 29th

As well as these two there are good fighters from all the clubs coming through
Lance Searanke, Glen Fraser,Scotty benson to name a couple Andrew Banham has some real talented young guys as does Dion Crouch.

With Dixon Making a big thing out of the K1 max will see competition in the lower weight classes heat up

I thought the job of a trainer is to make stronger,faster and technically better fighters. I think over the next couple of years we are going to produce far better fighters than we have ever done in the past. Isnt that the idea of being a trainer?
cheers
stu

Great to hear - unfortunately being Auckland centric we don't see as much coming through - but again these guys have yet to prove themselves although they are working their way up the ranks -

Dave and Stu - with your young and talenteds fighter basically the strength of NZ Kickboxing comes from Auckland and now Wellington is growing - can you guys either set up fights for your guys vs Aucklanders (or top ranked fighters from around the country) in Wellington or travel - alhtough it is not fair, most of the coverage and therefore exposure for fighters will come by fighting in Auckland or beating Auckland fighters. I know this sounds arrogant but it is true

Out of the guys I mentioned above only Rex and Chris aren't Aucklanders (maybe me becasue I'm from Palmerston) and Chris has moved to Aussie.

I remember paying my own way hoping in a mini and treaveling 8 hours , staying on a floor and fighting an Aucklander and winning my first NZ title years ago and that was the only way I could get some recognition - perhaps you guys need to proove the cocky Aucklanders wrong and get up here and give the boys a spanking to get you own guys exposure - perhaps ther needs to be a recipricale arrnagement between promotors - Wellington and Chrischurch boys come up and fight one month then the next month or two the Auckland buys travel to Wellington and fight.

I still stand by my concern that I have yet to see any special fighters coming through - I mean Rex have been fighting for a very long time and only in the last couple of years has he peaked - What I am saying here is that it does take some time to develop fighters ( Lollo is very good in this respect) And at this point there is a huge gap between the top guys and the up and comers. With no one showing signs of bridging that gap.

PS Fracis Vesetolou is another fighter coming through also, Lance is improving, Gareth - we'd love to see him here, Mark Spencer - Dave tell me more who has he fought what is his record etc ...

HI everyone

Thanks for your help so far, I will be more specific.

I have to do up the data base for the top 5 ranked NZ fighters in each devision, this is for the WMC Australasia ( me spelling - all bad)

Criteria: these are to be NZ rankings, that is, individuals that are still fighting for NZ Titles, I know there are alot of top NZ fighters that are now international, in my opionion they would not be included in the top 5 NZ as they will not be fighting for NZ titles, they have moved on.

So I need the top 5 you believe to be the best at NZ level for:

Super heavy
Heavey
Cruiser
super light
light
super middle
middle
super welter
welter
Super bantam
bantam
fly
atom

Not sure if these are in the right order of if in fact I have got them right as I am doing this from memory, I will post proper catagories and there weights tomorrow

Please only include current fighters not retired ones.

Males and females if you can

I have had some emailed to me so feel free to do this as I will try to compile them and post the results.

Sue

Hmmm, Mike that is indeed an Auckland centric view :)

Mark Spencer is something pretty special. He recently beat Steve Donaldson for the NZ title. Speaking of which, it seems the SMAC guys are the Aucklanders we see most often down here.

Another big up and coming name is Charles August - lots of fun to watch.

3 more who are no longer here in Wgtn, but have made names for themselves:

Sonny Vanathy (now in Aussie, but has beat Todd Keedwell and Daniel Hatch in one night)
Ngakau Spain (Richie Hardcore's only loss)
Vince Betham (now in Auckland - we miss ya Vince!!!)

Cheers
Ben

Hi Ben,

Yep it is Auckland Centric of me isn't but I still think the gap exists and that the gap is huge.

Mark - yes now I know who you are talking about - he has great talent and I'd love to see him doing well.

Now I know I will get stick for this - but It should provoke some discussion and hopefully action to prove me wrong

Sonny - good fighter, but as yet hasn't done anything special - Todd and Daniel are seasoned international campaigners but were journeymen on the delcine in my eyes - but good step up victories has Sonny done anythin major since? He could be one to take the step up.

Ngakau - is a solid fighter but nothing special - bit like me he spends too much time on the internet - he may improve in Aussie but is he a potential world beater ???

Vince - well I actually think he is highly underrated and hopefully will prove me right.

But none of these guys are special or outstanding - Jason Suttie went to Japn on his own and fought the top Jananese and European fighters with less than 20 ameteur and pro fights under his belt Jayson Vermoa was fighting top pros inside of ten fights, Ray Sefo turned pro in his 5th or 6th, Tongalahi was fighting top Thais at 16,17,18

Jordon Tai has been fighting since he was about 13 or 14, and only in the last couple of year has he really stepped up

Ron Sefo beat Grant BArker in his first Pro fight after about 12 Ameteur Fights

Chopper again pro within 10 fights and fighting top internationals

All these guys were pushing the evelope early in their careers, no one of the up and comers in NZ is currently doing that -

It may be an Auckland Centric view but it is fact - if not please proove me wrong because that will be for the betterment of NZ Kickboxing having Wellington and Christchurch and co really strong. Having said that I do think that Wellington is coming on in huge leaps and bounds and the fights are so much harder now the guys are better prepared and more skilled than ever before thanks to guys like Rex Dave and co.

I think we need to aim higher than a NZ title or even a south pacifc title or a local world title (which is basically a south pacific title any way no disrespect to those guys who have won them, I should know I did my self but I won a world title with out fighting someone outside of Australasia)

There is a huge gulf between International and World calss and national class fighters and there is an equally big gap between A and B class fighters at this point NZ's only A class fighters are Ray, Chopper, Mark Hunt, Jordon Tai Jason Suttie, possibly Dave, Rex and Ron might sneak in but they still have to consistently perform against top international fighters - Dave gahn has at a lighter weight but I'm not sure how he will go at middle weight.

I think sometimes we get stuck in our own fish bowl and believe our own hype (I know I have at times) - A Class Champion is a long way off for our 2nd Echelon of fighters and once Ray, MArk and Jason retire in or or three years at this point only Chopper and Jordon look like swinging the flag ...

I hope I have offended enought people to prove me wrong because I love this sport and this country and want something to scream about come next friday night!!! and at furture international events!!!!

Hey mike
I bring my guys up to auckland all the time from Palmerston North. We win some and lose some. Aucklanders are no different from anyone else in the country. We have always had tough fights wether it be in Auckland or not. The boys have always enjoyed themselves and the hospitality has been great.
We promoted a show in Palmerston North about four weeks ago and the only reason we didnt bring any aucklanders down was that Aaron Boyes had promoted a show the night before and had been having trouble putting a fight card together.So i thought out of respect i would'nt poach any aucklanders but hey next year we are planning three more, so we see what happens eh.
cheers
Stu

Mike, you seem to know your stuff!!!!! Why dont you write a book??

this post sucks someone please delete it! it seems like you are dissing a few great nz fighters mike! whats up with that?

Dave garn was definatly fighting some A greade thais in his earlier day! in muay thai this is one hell of an achievement as some of those thais he fought were right up there in thailand! and he beat them too.
I think dave is one of nz's best ever thai boxers.
we arent that much behind mike,its just trying to get these big fights overseas is not to easy. Its alot easier in k1 to get the big fights but in these lighter weights its hard to get any fights in hoilland,england and abroad. But in muay thai if you wanna be fighting the best you have to live and be fighting in thailand.

I think that Ray ,Choper and co all came thru a different era ther were not as many fighters then as ther are now so ther level of fighting skill was almost forced to step internationaly so i dont think that ther is a gonna be a shortage of A class champions just a slower process of hungry fighters tyring fulfill ther dreams.....
thanx just adding my 5cents

P.S_Dave Gahn "ROCKS"

I have many reasons why I fight , but to prove Mike Angove wrong is definately not one of them ..
If you " love this country and this sport " show a little faith .
Good things take time mate . Dont you watch those cheese adds ??
Stop questioning others credibility and you start " waving the flag "
Peace to the middle east

I agree with Rex, it is a pretty hard to find fights at lighter weights after youve reached a certain point. I want to get a lot more amature fights, but there are not that many people in my weight class who I haven't fought already, and its not that exciting thinking I might have to fight everyone twice, so the only option is Australia really. That's expensive for promoters etc which means future fights might be few and far between. Im sure there are lots of guys in the same situation.

Mike, thats not very nice calling Hiriwa, Todd and Daniel journeymen, should have a little more praise for guys who avoided no one. You might get yourself in trouble one day, do you know what they call you? World Champion sparring partner and it was a elbow imjury not shoulder. Factman

Mike, I think you need to hire more combat videos...LOL! or go and watch the smaller local shows run, by myself, etk, Sifu Lam and Kiosud. Also hire some videos from down the line from Dave Hitchens and central North Island shows.

I can tell you that the future of NZ KB and MT is looking very healthier than ever. In terms of experience, you are absolutely right. There is a big gap in terms of experience and amount of fights, but talent wise....I've seen better talents now from younger guys (at this point of their career) than some of the more accomplished fighters mentioned above. All they need is more experience, regular fights and more exposures. That is an honest opinion. Anyway keep up the good work guys.

Ooops, I forgot to mentioned Storm promotions and strikeforce. They run awesome fight cards here in Auckland also, with lots of young exciting talents coming up...

Scotty Thomson, Stu & Ray Perry ran good shows also this year. I urge you to get hold of those video and you will change your mind. I'm excited about NZ talents for the future.

while we are shooting mike down,lol I mite ad that the article in the ik mag about the nz k1 max was rather biased! It sounded like every one else was very average but chopper and jordan were gona cruise through to the finals. You even stated that lance searancke has an average chin! well I would just like to know who has dropped him with head shots? answer no one!
Our line up for this event is amazing and you should have been more informative of this.
I mean stating that aaron dixon doesn't have the experience to win was a bit off too. He has fought all over the world mike.
increase the peace!
Rex

Lollo

been trying to contact you re fights in wellington 29th novem,ber give me a call please 0274 527 884

Hi Dave,

Sorry about that. I've been really busy as well. I was supposed to have a show on the 12 Dec., but Jason Suttie is having one on the 13th Dec. I was going to bring mine forward but Sifu Lam is having one on the 27th Nov. Also Kiosud is having one on the 6th Dec. Brian Twomey is having one on the 29th Nov. (But I won't have anyone there) Wayne Vaega is having one also on the 29th Nov, in Queenstown. Dave, please e-mail me, but at this stage some of our fighters are almost booked up for this busy period.

Sorry to be off the topic guys.

Rex, pay no attention to any comments by Mike or others. He just go by past experience and performance. Not many people picked Jordon last year to win but see what happened. What I'm trying to say is, if you win or Lance win this year, people like Mike will be put you up there next year. So, I don't think it's personal. If I am a compulsory gambler and have to put money in who is going to win, of course I would do the same as Mike and pick Choppa. That doesn't mean I am writing everyone else off to win it. After all, this is tournament event, and anything can happen.

Good luck and looking forward to see you guys next Friday. May the best man wins.

It's good to read these New Zealand posts, stops me getting home sick! Really wish I could get back for the NZ K1 as it looks awesome. Good luck to all the boys South of the Bombay Hills. I think Auckland was once a long way ahead of the rest of the country but that's changing fast.

I have been to a couple of promotions in Australia, it's a real shame about the costs involved with getting fighters across the Tasman. After following New Zealand kickboxing for the last 9 years and now seeing the fighters in Australia I can see some awesome Tran-Tasman match-ups.

Looking forward to watching Neil Bryant and Raphael Tai fight here in the next few weeks, go the Kiwi's.

Sorry Sue, shouldn't have hijacked your thread.

Guys I think I owe everyone an apology "perhaps I should be called Mike Lightning Mouth Angove"- absolutely no disrespect intended to the great fighters we do have. I seems I am a bit removed from the coalface of late and am being too bit big headed. I'd like also to say that all of the guys I've been talking about have fought better fighters and achieved more than I ever have or will do.

I am a bit of an opinionated prat at times - and can sometimes lead with my mouth rather than my brain. But I do it from a passion for the sport - not to be a tosser I do think we are a very strong KB nation but in terms of world class level - I wonder where the next group are coming from... which is what I unsuccessfully was trying to say...

Rexy - that report wasn't biased it was based on what I and other fight commentators have seen of the fighters involved. The article was also edited pretty heavily, with only profiles put in none of the lead up and none of the summary paragraphs for each fighter so it was a bit of a different article than I sent by the time it went to print.

Also Dave - is an A Class / World class fighter no question - but I wonder how he'll go at a heavier weight - I think I wrote - the least favoured fighter to draw first up in the tournament. But Jason Suttie has prooved everyone wrong I his going up in weight so Dave could do it too.

Just one other thing:

Factman: A journeyman is a fighter who will take on anyone any time - and put up a good show. Mark Hunt is kickboxings greatest ever journeyman!!!

As for the comments in International Kickboxer - re read them them they talk about fighters strengths and weaknesses - not just the negative ... for example Rex I also called Lance the Dark Horse of the tournament due to his punching power and with Aaron talked about his training with Daniel Dawson in Thailand / Aaron has fought in Thialand and Aussie and fought well against Warren Elson - but compared to the experience (and number of quality fighters fought) of Choppa and Jordon he has yet to peak.

But re reading the above I could have put things in a more postive light so again sorry guys!!!

If anyone of these guys puts up an awesome show I'll be the first one to eat a huge slice of humble pie and sing thier praises.

Mike, I think I will have to stand with everyone else as far as the health of the sport goes. I've been blown away by the quality of some of the fights I have seen lately with only 1st or 2nd time fighters. Jake Sole vs James Brown, Paulo Rafei vs Joo Hyeong Hahm, Dane Keoghan vs Dion Reid, Papa Gabriel vs Dave Crooke - these were all recent fights with 1st or 2nd time fighters and you would have thought that you were watching guys with 5x as many. Good checking, grappling, sharp high and low kicks, crisp combinations - it was all there! further up the food chain we have fighters like hardcore, sefa fue, Sone Vanathy right through to the likes of the k-1 and k-1 Max fighters. I think the fact that we dont have guys going pro early is because they no longer have to due to the fact that the general standard of fighters has risen and the number of fighters as well. I think that we have heaps of potential world beaters out there.

What I do agree with is that we have an increasing gap between our top tier of pro fighters and our top amatuers. I think that the situation Richie described is dangerous - once you get to a certain level in NZ it is hard to make the transition to the next. I dont know how we can do it but I think that we need to find a way to get our boys some international experience. Who will Lance fight in NZ once he has fought in the K-1 Max? Few people would put money on anyone except Jason,Andrew, and Ron in the K-1 Max - how do we get the other guys who qualify up to that level? I dont think it is a question of talent - I think there is a question of opportunity. We need to find a way to help our fighters build up to that level - probably by bringing international fighters out here but who pays? I dont know. Hopefully the increased exposure of kiwi fighters in IK will attract promoters in Oz.

In Mikes defence I would like to make a couple of points (just to make an incredibly long post even longer)
1. IK is an Australian magazine and our articles get edited for the Australian market, sometimes with significant changes. If you read my report of the Boyes vs Johnson fight in IK it sounds a lot closer than if you read what I wrote for fight times. Editing. Compare what is said about the Richie vs Suk Bong fight, same thing.
2. It was a preview and contained Mike's opinions. Some I agreed with and some I didn't, but I believe he tried to be balanced. He is a commentator and that's what commentators do - provide comment as they see it. Next issue will have a report with the results (probably also written by Mike). If Mike got it wrong what will readers pay most attention to - the preview or the results? The only one whose reputation will be damaged will be Mike. The fun of a preview is to see how wrong (or right) the previewer got it. At the end of the day - its what happens in the ring that counts, not what Mike writes
3. Agree with his opinions or not - we just got a 4 page article in International Kickboxer about a New Zealand event that hasn't even happened yet! We've put the names of all of those kiwi fighters in front of Aussie fans, but more importantly, Aussie promoters. In the same issue was 3 pages on Ray Sefo, a fight report for Art of War, profiles on 5 kiwi fighters and 3 pages worth of comments from kiwis about Mike Tyson's signing. Pick up a copy from a year ago and compare the difference. Mike was the 1st one to write about the NZ scene in IK and now look where we are.

Your doing an awesome job yourself matman.. Much respect and appreciation to you too bro..

I have to back Rex and say from personal experience that Lance has an excellent chin, I hit him with shots that Im sure would have dropped other people and he pretty much just shrugged it off and banged me across the ring. The k1 this weekend is going to be epic! I can't wait.

Hi again
I have had a few trainers email me there title holders and contenders this is helping me heaps however if you aare a trainer or fighter and know of any NZ level fighters that should be listed in the top 5 please let me know otherwise you my be sadly dissapointed with the rankings that get finalised, please help me out!!!!!

Sue

Happy to be proven wrong - I think Mat, Rex and Richie make a good point about the transition from the top at national level to international. Another favorite trick which also has been a problem has been for some O/S promotors to overmatch and/or arrange last minute fights which don't often reflect the quality or experience level of the Kiwi guys who are asked to fight. Often the Kiwi fighter will take the fights because that is the nature of our guys - they love to fight and like to have a crack at so called bigger names.

Also read the article I wrote in Eye Magazine - a mainstream NZ Glossy magazine talking about the health of NZ Kickboxing, Promoting the sport talking about and how strong our fighters are. Although a bit OTT and arrogant in what I sad above, the point was also to be provocative and draw out some discussion on the state of the health of KB in NZ. At the end of the day who cares what Mike Angove says anyway (those who can't do it anymore, write about it) - it'll either be used as motivation or ignored completely.

I'd also like to say what a great job Mat has been doing with his writing he loves kickboxing and knows the game really well, & pretty much all of what he writes has been written for no reward. Also - Mat, Myself and Caitlain are now writing reports for Ax News so NZ fighters will now be exposed on the internet!!!

The one great thing that is occuring is the number of shows and promotors who are now putting on good quality shows throughout the country - which is a great platform for success and with the bigger crowd attendences will allow bigger sponsorship -etc which means more chance of international fights at home. A few years ago it seems to be that mianly Lollo and Sifu were the only fighter bringing in overseas guys - now this looks to be changing with new promotors (& old) putting on top international shows in Christchurch, Hamilton, Auckland, and Wellington. And local shows happening all over the country.

Sorry Sue I think I've hijacked your post.

here are the weight devisions if any one would care to jot down a few names on them

Jockeyweight - 53kg
Bantamweight - 55kg
Featherweight - 57kg
Lightweight - 60kg
Junior Welterweight - 63kg
Welterweight - 66kg
Junior Middleweight - 68kg
Middleweight - 72.5kg
Super Middleweight - 76kg
Light Heavyweight - 79kg
Super Light Heavyweight- 83kg
Cruiserweight - 86kg
Super Cruiserweight - 89kg
Heavyweight - 95kg
Super Heavyweight - 95kg +

Cheers sue

Jockeyweight - 53kg
Bantamweight - 55kg
Featherweight - 57kg
Lightweight - 60kg-Shige Oda, Ben Agnew
Junior Welterweight - 63kg Steve Donaldson, Andy Donaldson, Roger Earp, Shannan Foreman(WMC title Holder)
Welterweight - 66kg
Junior Middleweight - 68kg Nick Tangatoa(Wmc Title Holder)
Middleweight - 72.5kg Lance Seranacke, Vince Betham, Hemuera Maika(WMC North Island Tittle holder)
Super Middleweight - 76kg Nathan Odering, Dave Stuart(Wmc Title holder), Charles August, Bruce Aitkins, Tony Angelov, Shane Cornish (WMC title Holder)
Light Heavyweight - 79kg Vinnie Mahoney, Elia "Black Ice",
Super Light Heavyweight- 83kg
Cruiserweight - 86kg
Super Cruiserweight - 89kg
Heavyweight - 95kg Daniel Robati(WKBF title holder), Nathan Mckay,
Super Heavyweight - 95kg + Sio vitale, Ben Matua (Ben might be pro?)

Sorry about any mis spelling. These are in no particualr order, and Im no expert just puttiing the names forward of some of the more experienced fighters. Shannan and roger may be light weights, im not sure..I think Im right though.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey Richie, you forgot yourself!!!

I think you've got Shannon in the right category. I dont think he's ever
been a lightweight. When we fought it was at 64.5 kg, 60kg would have been real tough to get down to.

Definitely put Mark Spencer down under welterweight. Which NZ title does he have exactly?

Cheers
Ben

For the girls - this is a list of the girls that I know, there will be others I'm sure.

Jockeyweight - 53kg - Sarah Clunie, Liz Korea, Heather Smyth & sister

Bantamweight - 55kg - Jade Lee, Lisa Grant

Featherweight - 57kg - Ngapera, Cath, Leanne Banham

Lightweight - 60kg - Debbie Saxton, Karen Lynch, Kerry Keneally, Tabitha May

Junior Welterweight - 63kg - Laura Pigou, Robyn Ocean

- 66kg - Sussanne Marsh

Like Richie's post, this is in no particular order and not sure of all the weight categories as we all fight up higher and down lower as needs be plus I'm sure to have missed someone but it gives everyone an idea of the various girls fighting in NZ.

Factman: A journeyman is a fighter who will take on anyone any time - and put up a good show. Mark Hunt is kickboxings greatest ever journeyman!!!

actually the term "journeyman" is a medaphor. in old europe, under the guild system. a journeyman was a craftsman who had not attained the level of "master craftsman". he was no longer an apprentice but still needed to create his masterpiece to become a master. an example is a weaponsmith who makes a one of a kind sword that is judged by the guild members as a quality worthy of a master craftsman.

IMO, mark hunt's grand prix win two years ago qualifies as a masterpiece. in kyokushikai, the 100 man kumite is considered a masterpiece as is the world championship. filho has both.

Mark Spencer has NZ Wka Super lightweight
and WKBF Welterweight

Rex Redden NZ pro WMC welterweight and World Pro WKBF

Sefa Fue has WKBF NZ lightweight title.

Nathan Odering has the NZ TBA Supermiddleweight Title
Samuel Fiamatai has the NZ TBA Superlightheavyweight Title (although really a supermiddleweight division fighter)

If it helps
Francis Vesitolu has the Cruiser Weight amature and Pro Nz tittle

I always wondered who came up with the name "superlightheavyweight".

Francis's cruiser weight title will be vacant now that he has gone pro. haha good question Ben.

Sup Richie been waiting to ask how did you get to star in that music video saw it on C4 the other night?????

Haha it's off topic, but Im freinds with the Concord Dawn guys and also the guy who directed it. It was meant to be a fight scene actually but it was going to be too violent for UK tv, so it was the running thing haha.It was ahrd work dude, 11 hours sprint training!