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The Ax Forum
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Topic:Sky Sports Pulling Out Of Mt?
The Big Man
Posted: 2003-02-21 09:04:27
I heard that Sky Sports are to stop showing muay thai as they say it isn't exciting enough for British TV!

My instructor was told this by 2 promotors who had tried to get Sky to film their events.

Has anyone else heard about this?
phil
Posted: 2003-02-21 09:05:32
It has been a bit quiet recently. Doesnt help thats it on at midnight on Sky Sports 3 usually.
Fahad
Posted: 2003-02-21 09:08:47
they need to promote and market it etter and stop putting it on so late :(
Yug
Posted: 2003-02-21 09:14:43
"It has been a bit quiet recently. Doesnt help thats it on at midnight on Sky Sports 3 usually."

Tv companies do this all the time, if they want to get rid of something they put it on at a time when noone watches TV anyway and then say 'look, noones watching this programme' and then cancel it.

Still I'm sure with the money saved they can film some more dramas about doctors, or police, or police doctors, or doctors who live with police, or police who used to be doctors, ad infinitum, ad nauseum, ad bloody boring shite.
phil
Posted: 2003-02-21 09:15:40
but they have some serious crap on like tennis and bowls and stuff, they are being rotters.
JD
Posted: 2003-02-21 09:20:40
Sky Sports are really not bothered about Muay Thai, they do not feel the viewing figures will ever be high enough to warrant any expense on publicity and marketing. It's a shame as I would love to see more on tv.
P.S I've heard this from the horses mouth
The Big Man
Posted: 2003-02-21 09:30:38
I know. They advertise UFC with guys getting knocked stupid and blood flying about the place then when you watch it all you see is 2 guys rolling on the floor for half an hour!

Obvously, the guys behind UFC in the States know what they are doing and have enough money behind it to make sure they can get the right sort of image over here.

One of my fights was shown on Sky which was nice for me, but I wouldn't complain if Sky showed fights live from Lumpinee instead!
JD
Posted: 2003-02-21 09:33:24
Thats the problem, UFC are one big organisation with a bit of clout.
Fahad
Posted: 2003-02-21 09:36:27
ok imagine if they marketed and publicized big events like K-1, Kings Birthday, K-1 Max, Pride, UFC, UCC if they do it with glitz and glamourous adverts like they make for boxing and football im sure they can pull crowds. No offence to anyone here but the shows they've shown so far aer amateurish in comparison to huge events like the aforemenioned.
I've seen the Japanese coverage of K-1 and british coverage and even though i cant understand japanese it was so exciting to watch as is american UFC and Pride events commented by bas rutten and that other dude.
JD
Posted: 2003-02-21 09:48:52
It's not gonna happen Farhad, boxing and football are two of the biggest sports in the world and uk. The same finances are not going to be poured into a fringe sport. I'm not putting Muay Thai down because i love it but sometimes I think we have to be more realistic
Fahad
Posted: 2003-02-21 09:54:51
i agree with you JD
maybe Muay Thai has little hope on sky sports but im talking about K-1, pride and UFC although UFC failed right?
JD
Posted: 2003-02-21 10:12:59
I think UFC done ok on box office but I don't think it's ever going to compete with Boxing or Football, or even shitty speedway I'm afraid
Colin Payne
Posted: 2003-02-21 10:17:51
One big problem is the difference in production values. Take the average saturday night on SKY sports. You have a Frank Warren Boxing promotion with top fighters and an TV production to match. Then you have a Thai/kick show with production costs one tenth of the boxing. You might have the two best kicboxers in the world, but it will never look the same and the non-participant(who are really the ones we want to switch on) switch off!

The K1's recently should have been good, but the TV production on that wasn't brilliant and as we know from previous posts on AX, the commentary was crap.
JD
Posted: 2003-02-21 10:19:13
I think Eurosport makes a mess of K-1
zebedee
Posted: 2003-02-21 10:26:22
I think you'll find that Sky have not completely said they won't touch MT.

There is a new Director of Sports starting in March and so Sky have put all new minority sports on hold.
I'm pretty confident that MT will be back on Sky soon, we'll just have to watch it on Channel 5, which is good coverage....just well past my bedtime!! LOL

I have heard that Eurosport won't touch MT or KB again though as they don't feel it attracts the audience they would like!!!!!!
Mr Smith
Posted: 2003-02-21 10:42:39
I think we only have ourselves to blame.

The game is so disorganised here, and everyone wants to the the big cheese with their show or their fighters on the tv. They dont care about the quality or about how it looks to the general public. No-one wants to answer to anyone else, so theres no coordination about what gets put on.

Sky Sports have no expertise and dont know whats good and whats not, they just put on what they're given, and what they are being given is often crap. While ever this is the situation they are not going to want to show it, never mind pay for it to be filmed.

Each programme starts off with a couple of crap 3 round novice fights that have no place on tv, or a "British Title" between 2 b class fighters and the public is told that this is top quality. People tune in to watch, see the quality and switch over to something else. I am strongly against 3 round fights being televised and believe that only A class bouts should be shown. The trouble is that promoters dont have the money to pay for a show that is all A class bouts, and the promoter usually runs a gym and wants his fighters to be shown.

Having said this, I do think that the Channel 5 programmes are getting good and credit should be given to Jacko Ali. The fights are getting better, and the production is improving as Malcolm the commentator starts to get to know the sport and his commentating is more knowledgable. Up to this we have either had a professional presenter who knows nothing about Muay Thai, or a Thai boxer who (all due respect to those who have done it like Sandy) are not professional commentators. Its ok having these as guest commentators but not as the main one.

goof
Posted: 2003-02-21 11:47:27
The problem is the Thai fights are boring! Excessive clinching, very few head kicks. Two half-assed boxers throwing boring leg kicks! The clinching kills me. Two average Boxers throwing a lousy combination, then clinching for a very long time trying to land an ineffective knee. If it was exciting, it would still be on. The public decides what is shown. Obviously the public couldnt give a rats-ass about Thai Boxing!!!
JD
Posted: 2003-02-21 11:49:55
I take it you wasn't at York Hall last Sunday?
zebedee
Posted: 2003-02-21 11:51:02
I do actually agree with you Richard, and I have to hold my hands up as someone who got a show shown on Sky which wasn't of a top standard.
The problem being, is that even though on paper it looks like you have a good bill, things can go wrong on the night.... as we all know!

I have seen A class fighters stink the place out, and then watched a 3 round c class fight which has had everything, and looks very exciting to the viewing audience.

The problem we have at the moment, is that TV companies are not willing to pay any money towards tournaments, and so it is up to the promoter to source the sponsorship deals on the back of TV coverage. If we could get more money, then we could get to put on more prestige fights, with all the razzamatazz which entertains the 'public'.
I like so many others, want to see our sport in the main stream, where I believe it belongs, and the only way to achieve this is for more media coverage (not just TV but also the national papers).

Like Richard also has said, I think that Ali Jacko has made tremendous strides with Channel 5, and has proved that we, as a sport, can show some exciting Muay Thai on TV.
107147 : spot on JD !!! and....

Sandy Holt
Posted: 2003-02-21 14:24:37
IT IS ON CHANEL-5 every week ! Every one has a telly ! Why is this not being mentioned above? It is on Late ! but its gotta start somewhere? To gain some momentum ! And get the interest ! we have it on MAINSTREAM T.V that EVERYONE almost has ! And NOT everyone HAS SKY ( i aint for starters ) So stop whinging ! TELL everyone to phone into chanel-5 and ask for it to be brought FORWARD a bit ! And be gratefull its ON !
God weve ALL been whinging for years ! WHY is it NOT on T.V. ?
"IT IS " !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So support it ! And if its too late ? then TAPE it for **** sake ! Simple id have thought !
I sound in a mood ?? iam ! As ive been promoting and pushing Yhai-Boxing the best i can, and given up a NORMAL >??? (is there one? ) life to help muay-thai to GROW !( as havemany in this country, likewise)
So get them rung up and ASK for it to be shown earlier Ali jacko has been campaigning for us ALL to do this since it came on ! UT NEEDS YOUR VOTE ! Ring chanel-5 !!!!!
cheers
PHEW sandy man

sorry !
Pestlett
Posted: 2003-02-21 14:38:06
yea Sandy I agree Channel 5 is a good start, but since you do the commentry cant u make somemore sugguestions to the show, like get them to show the WHOLE of the Ram Muay, and not just the ending while the woman goes through the stats.
PLUS there is the added bonus that before I relax to watch some real Arse Kicking, i can

RELAX

. They can put it on earlier really and replace all the crap stuff like Family Affairs (if thats still on if not something along them crappy lines)
But I really think the whole of the Ram Muay should be put on at the begging tho, but thats jst me

Muaythai King
Posted: 2003-02-21 15:21:42
For a start the airing of 'Now Is The Time' has to be more professional. Hell even when they display the fighter's names, the organisation thats sanctioning the event the bloody names are incorrectly spelt or daft things like that. I know its just a silly wee thing to complain about but it doesnt look professional at all.

An example was when they displayed the fight rules, the woman going over them was describing a different set of rules, like in MT fight she announced there were no leg kicks........lol

Sometimes though the commentry sucks. Also the commentators seem to have their 'favouites' that can do absoultely nothing wrong, even when they aint on form - i thought they were meant to be unbiased??

The SKY coverage though was quite good, not enough of it though & on at an unreasonable time for alot of people. I suppose though we shoul be glad atleast we are getting some coverage - lets hope that SKY doesnt pull the plug on MT.
107171 : ALL fair points ! BUT is on !

Sandy Holt
Posted: 2003-02-21 15:25:54
ITS so easy to CRITISIZE we are SOOOO good at it in this country !
I agree about the 2 posts up above ! BUT i will still say !
PHONE in with your COMMENTS ref: these as they are VALID TOO ! i AGREE !!!!!!!!

BUT its on T.V. TOOOOOOO ! yayyyyyy !
Colin Payne
Posted: 2003-02-21 15:59:47
Well Goof certainly don't sit on the fence!

I myself am a instructor and promoter of kickboxing, not Thai but I would have to say that what JD said about Sunday was spot on, it was first class. Although I didn't think the world title fight was as good as Kieron keddles or the rob storey/micheal dickes fight which was great.

Let's be honest here. Just because we love it, we shouldn't expect everyone else to. Promoters should look themselves in the mirror and ask the question how many fights have they put on which they can honestly say should have been on TV and been 100% entertainment, equal to the best boxing, be honest now!.

Over the last 6 years and 28 shows I reckon I have put on no more than 6 or 7 fights that TRULY were crying out for TV camaras, most others were just very good fights. Anyone who saw the Chill Garnet/Chris Long fight that I put on 3 years ago would hopefully agree with me that was one that everyone should have seen, but as I say just because I loved the rest doesn't mean that the average SKY sports fan with no particular allegiance to combat sports would.

PS. Mr Smith - absolutley spot on with your post.
Colin.H
Posted: 2003-02-21 16:22:06
Sky have pulled the plug for the time being. The main problem is that sky want a more professional program presented to them for airing, and at the moment no-one is financing this.
Sky were prepaired to allocate 'slots' but the quality control over the fights aired has caused the knock back.
I agree with Richard, Malcolm is improving but he is still waffling, he doesn't know enough about mt (yet). We do need a good mt anchor.
The point about the ram muay etc. Sky want to cut that further. They only want the action, so maybe the old format of Songchai's of the highlights from round one and two then the rest of the fight will have to be adopted.
This format was used several years ago when fights from the Lumpini and Holland were shown on uk tv.
I am currently trying to get Songchai's shows aired but as yet even that isn't recieving the interest i would have hoped.
Never mind, we can only keep on trying.
We are going to have to stop grading mediocrity as excellence and audit whats presented to the television companies and properly (independently?) monitor it's quality.
Mr Smith
Posted: 2003-02-21 16:30:09
I dont agree with the "at least its on" "I suppose though we should be glad atleast we are getting some coverage" argument. I believe it should be all or nothing. At this stage of our sports development in the eyes of the general public, if it isnt good enough, it shouldnt be on tv. Full stop.

Easier said than done, but we need to sort the sport out in general. While there are several sanctioning bodies, no uniformity and anyone putting on whatever they want as long as the have the money, it wont be long before the tv channels get sick of it and stop putting it on.

It happpened before with the Stuart Promotions/WKA shows in the early 90's and it took 10 years to get tv stations interested again. I would hate to see that happen again.

While we have promoters putting on shows and asking "has anyone got a fighter at Xkg to fight my guy for a 'british title'", we cannot expect the game to be taken seriously by anyone except those of us who love it.

But who wants to give up control of being able to put "British" and "Commonwealth" - even "European" and "World" titles on their shows with fighters of their choosing and without having to pay expensive purses????
crazyhorse
Posted: 2003-02-23 13:22:10
I realise that putting on even a small show requires a lot of effort. I'm a competing thai boxer who loves the sport but even I don't enjoy watching 3*2 novice fights.

I was at that level once and I realise that we all have to start somewhere but how the hell some fights get on TV is beyond me!

I've stayed up till late at night to watch thai boxing and the quality of SOME of the fights has been abysmal. Two guys bitch slapping each other for 30 seconds then holding onto each other falling about the ring for the rest of the fight.

Why is that shown on TV? Its hard enough to watch that if you do the sport but ask yourself, if you had never seen MT before would you sit and watch it?

As far as I can make out, a production company is paid to film the event and the footage is given to Sky or Channel 5 to air.

Can you blame them for putting it on so late? At the end of the day we moan about the other crap that they show like footballers wifes but thousands and thousands of British people will watch that. How many people will sit and watch thai boxing of poor quality?
crazyhorse
Posted: 2003-02-23 13:35:19
Maybe I'm being naive but how hard is it to put on a really top quality show?

There is a quite a lot of excellent thai boxers who would love the chance to fight on big events.

Why can't the top trainers get together and put on a serious thai boxing show / circuit. All A class full thai. A big venue with big names over from Europe. They could also spend money to get a top quality production team to film it.

Sky would actually sit up and take notice of it. If they get given quality footage of 2 guys knocking each other stupid with elbows and blood flying then they WILL show it at an earlier time and they will advertise it.

Lets be honest, MT will never attract a big audience at this rate. And thats not being negative! Its only insomnimaniacs who watch it just now. Your average viewer won't see 'Kickboxing 0130' in the paper and stay up to watch it.

107590 : all GOODS posts above ! and crazyhorse ! yep i agree ref: the 3 rounders !

Sandy Holt
Posted: 2003-02-23 15:26:25
And ref: the fights? its all about we havent got in our sport to do it the JUSTICE it deserves!!!
p.s. See the U.K. v OZ ref: IF i won a million ! Fantasy! ? Dream?! But perhaps ONE day a REALITY !
cheers
KEEP up the FIGHT guys !!

sandy man holt
Dave Jackson
Posted: 2003-02-23 16:00:52
Ok, lets put it to the test!

Richard Smith, Steve Logan, Paul Hennessy, Dean White, Pele Nathan, Sean Toomey, Carl Sams, Shaun Keddle, Dan Green, Bill Judd, Sandy Holt, and any other UK promoters out there....

I know that you all look at this site so how many of you are prepared to work with me and put on a "megga show"? No profit for anyone! lets just get the thing on TV at a decent time!

Lets put some real fights on, the fights "we want to see"!

Pete Crooke v JWP would be a good top of the bill for me!



kirk
Posted: 2003-02-23 17:41:11
i was flipping thru the channels the other night and every damn channel had full contact fights on.oh my god it was unreal.there were booties flying every where.
107616 : PEOPLE on that LIST ring me

Sandy Holt
Posted: 2003-02-23 18:03:48
107617 : Dave ive just come off the phone with another Thai-Boxing instructor (3 Hours) ref

Sandy Holt
Posted: 2003-02-23 18:13:21
To your above statement !
CANT believe it !
Ne and he would like a meeting a.s.a.p.
Can you call me mon: eve: ? after your classes etc:
Cheers
NEED to set this up
Cheers
sandyman!

basically If F-1
F.i.F.A. etc; and all the other sports have got to HIGH level etc: WHY cant we ?
Scuse the pun BUT
"NOW IS THE TIME" !!!!!!
i really feel we are @ our best re: our committment to the sport, our fighters have attained a great level and the media is talking about us MORE and MORE !
We are the forfathers in the U.K. and its up to US to help it along and bring / raise up the standards and have "1" ruling TITLE / body and F*** all the others !

Here we go ! All the above names me included ( if you have a assoc:?) Will you put away all your Titles?
I tell you what i will be the first to do it if thats what it takes to ABOLISH the other 20+ and start afresh ! I know im not a big assoc: BUT iam one of the many that makes them up to the numbers we DONT want !
anyway im waffleing
RING me! please !
we have semi organised a date / meeting already !
Just need the names above to agree A.S.A.P. to see each other re: THIS and what Daves saying as its VERY MUCH the same !
thankyou!
Sandy McSensible Sometimes holt
Traad
Posted: 2003-02-23 21:08:29
Well this is one of the best ideas ive heard of so far in the MT/kickboxing community & a real test to see who will put there personal issues aside for the sport.

Come on you poms at least be one of the first countries to have 1 group, f@#k the titles no titles just fights, he'll if its successful you may do more than one together.
107669 : BANG ON TRAAD !!!!!! and

Sandy Holt
Posted: 2003-02-23 21:10:33
If we leave our "EGOS" @ the door of the meeting room for this !! WELL we will be in with a chance ! eh !!
cheers
FINGERS crossed !
Brian Ritchie
Posted: 2003-02-23 22:13:16
I totally agree with what Richard Smith has to say about the need to show quality fights on the television programs or else television will HURT the publicity of the sport.

I love Dave Jackson's suggestion. Let's see if you guys have the balls to go for it. ;-) It'll do wonders for promoting Muay Thai in the UK, if you pull together your resources and don't worry about making profit from the event.
Monkey
Posted: 2003-02-23 22:34:36
This is very interesting. And to sort of further what Mr.Smith says it's true. Think for a minute why has MMA in it's relative short existence has been able to get far more international and viewer interest then KB/MT for it's significantly longer existence? Well A)Better organization which leads to B) better money and C) they have gotten significantly more elite or "Michael Jordan" level atheletes than KB/MT can boast of. There are sadly very few competitors in MT/KB I would regard as elevated their level of skill to a level I might call "elite". But look at MMA, look at the number of ex-Olypmpian atheletes they have for example.

And MMA is less inward clashing and cliqueish than KB/MT. Sure there are several promotions out there but a few of them are recognized as having true champions and top echelon fighters ie. UFC or Pride. Training with NHB guys has shown me that for the most part their attitudes in general about fight sport are a lot more open. Don't get me wrong I love KB/MT and it will always be a sport I will compete in at least until I am too old and too injured to continue (which I estimate to be in 5-6 years) but MMA has taken the world by storm mostly due to better organization and marketing. Both of these factors have attracted top level atheletes from many disciplines. Comparitively kickboxing doesn't, there are few individuals willing to climb into the ring for a payment of peanuts. Let me make a real life correlation for you: I dated a pro-bowler for awhile. Pro-bowlers make more money than a MT/KB fighter at comparitively the same level of professional maturity! By how much? Well I saw her check and it was about at least 2X the amount a pro fighter might get at the same level of professional maturity.

It can be done though even with the presence of Pride and UFC, K-1 this past year outsold both promotions. Marketing is the key and a change in attitude in general among the KB/MT community. But like I stated in another thread KB/MT will never be an international sport until it has a much larger presence in the USA. That hasn't happened yet and if I had to assign the balme to anyone I'd say it's the governing bodies and the USA's kickboxing community in general. It's their own fault.
107677 : YES and my names down already ! IM UP 4 IT !

Sandy Holt
Posted: 2003-02-23 22:35:34
Im up NOW too ! as always ! :p
:)))))
107679 : p.s. Didnt see the above GOOD points / post ! it came in while typeing mine !

Sandy Holt
Posted: 2003-02-23 22:39:15
Fair points and i think that is relevant to the USA only ! As MT/KB is the other way here and in Europe !
sandy
Monkey
Posted: 2003-02-23 22:48:21
MT/KB is bigger in Europe without a doubt but if what MR.Smith says is true it seems pretty fragmented as well. I look forward to the day when truly the best of the best compete but from what I am hearing about Sky TV and and televised Mt/KB. It's sounds nearly as bad as ESPN 2 here and the televising of these fights at bloody nose hours. There's room to grow for certain. Until then I think MT/KB will enjoy a small international following with limited growth. Someone needs to call Budweiser or something. Just kidding but bigger dollars and more organization is the direction it needs to go.

My point about champions and the best being acknowledged maybe was not emphasized enough. I don't think any sport has as many 'world champions' as MT/KB does. It's a joke. That's why many organizations and publications have used K-1 for ranking heavyweights since so many organizations seem to promote the concept of 'house champions' and the best seldom tangle with other high echelon competitors.
Brian Ritchie
Posted: 2003-02-23 22:49:50
What we really need is to find a billionaire who is a Kickboxing fan :)
Monkey
Posted: 2003-02-23 22:50:12
Additionally: I am fairly certain NHB promotions still get larger buy rates in the Uk than KB/MT. Perhaps even a larger draw than KB/MT events combined.
107686 : good call

Sandy Holt
Posted: 2003-02-23 22:51:34
And the joke about BUDWEISER is a good point ! ACTUALLY joking apart ! ITS a GOOD idea ! IT BIG names like that is what we need 1
Yake a look@ the :-
`NOW is the time topic` ! related to this !
ta
also what i jokingly BUT seriously put on the `OZZY or U.K.` topic too !
Monkey
Posted: 2003-02-23 22:51:42
2 words Brian: Beer sponsor. :)
JD
Posted: 2003-02-24 05:40:33
I'm afraid this problem runs deep, I work for Sky and nobody in my department even knows we show Thai/Kickboxing let alone the general public.
Colin.H
Posted: 2003-02-24 06:04:59
Justin. email me please.
kirk
Posted: 2003-02-24 06:19:52
it really is about the fights.

so many times promoters,gyms,and managers try to sell a fighter or fighters before they sell the sport.

ppl can see fights and determine skill level even if they aren't educated in that sport.

my wife has seen stinkers on espn2 with me.she hates what i do and could care less.and she'll ask,these guys are fighting for a world title?

fox sports here in the u.s. started showing no name fighters pitted against othe no name fighters,matched them style wise very well,and let the fights sell their show.guys that were solid,basic fighters,who would produce good fights.it worked well.

when the public can recognize the contenders as well as the champions,thats when
belts will matter.

this and a few other things is what killed full contact in the states.imo.
Colin.H
Posted: 2003-02-24 06:36:00
Who will be the co-ordinator of Dave's proposal?
crazyhorse
Posted: 2003-02-24 10:03:36
Daves idea? It was clearly mine! :)

I think that whatever is done should have the backing and support of the WMC. They could help to bring over top quality fighters.

IMO a body like the WMC is the way forward for MT - 'one world one muay thai'.

I think that the WMC should have organisations in every country that does MT. This would ensure proper regulation of the sport. You would go to them for licences and they could sanction titles ie. WMC British Champion

In Britain for example, you would have the British WMC. It would be responsible for issuing licences and sanctioning title fights. All instructors would be encouraged to join it.

This would allow a proper circuit to be setup. For example, the best WMC fighters from England could fight on WMC Holland shows.

If all the individual WMC organisations were controlled by the WMC in Thailand this would give the sport a greater sense of unity and professionalism.

crazyhorse
Posted: 2003-02-24 10:17:37
So lets say we've got the British WMC running as a non profit organisation. It would issue titles only to those who deserve them and only on their shows.

With all the money it would recieve from licence sales etc it could put on a MEGA show like we're talking about.

The best British fighters fighting the best British fighters. All 'A' class fighters at a good venue. They could go to Sky Sports or Channel 5 and say

'look, we're putting on a big show the likes never seen in this country before! If we get a great production team to put it together and we guarantee you no crap fights, will you put it on a 9pm and advertise it?'

IMO channel 5 is the better option. Its got a bigger audience than Sky for a start. If they advertised thai boxing with footage of spinning elbows and flying knees and showed it at prime time then people WOULD watch it.

Colin.H
Posted: 2003-02-24 14:00:23
Crazyhorse.
Your idea, daves proposal to get the ball rolling :-)
Already you might be causing problems with your suggestion.
The WMC? More licences?
The WMC has established representatives with conflict of interest.
Straight away we have political oneupmanship and the alienation of possible participents in the project.
The WMC would bring WMC fighters. The proposal by Dave was for top fighters, which means going to the manager of the fighter we want and negotiating the contract. Where does the WMC come in?
There has to be a real understanding of why the uk is so fragmented to minimise disaffecting those you would hope would come on board such a project.
Keep it independent, non political, and as agreeable to as many parties to give it any chance whatsoever.
Channel 4 may be a better option as i think it has total coverage of the uk?
Traad
Posted: 2003-02-24 15:56:14
Colin H. Crazyhorse can you run the show without a sanctioning body ?? (no titles) This would be the best idea, maybe let the releveant government dept. in on the event only.
Dave Jackson
Posted: 2003-02-24 16:01:57
I agree with Colin in that we do not need an umbrella body to run with this, we have everything we need if the people involved can get together and work together
Dave Jackson
Posted: 2003-02-24 16:08:25
P.S. I didnt claim the idea, I just made a suggestion although I have already discussed this with a few people before. To date I have had contact from 2 of the people on the above list that are willing to give it a go and one other(Pele) has said in the very recent past that he would run with it with me.
crazyhorse
Posted: 2003-02-25 08:21:28
I don't think that an umbrella body is needed to cover an event like this. I was off on a tangent! IMO the sport is far far too fragmented but thats another matter.

So what is a mega show? Is it all 'A' class fights? Will there be top quality Thais ( even Thai vs Thai?)

How do you make a TV corporation realise that this is going to be different from all the other crap!
crazyhorse
Posted: 2003-02-25 08:32:01
I think that anything that is done TV wise will be very gradual. Look at the other sports they show such as NASCAR. Thats one of the biggest sports in the world and that gets the same treatment as MT!

I think the best we could hope for is a ONE OFF show midweek at around 10.30pm along with the occasional advert. I think that if they advertised the show with hardcore Thai boxing action then the ratings would be high, even if its just out of peoples curiosity.

If the show was good then Channel 5 would get much better feedback. As its only one show they don't have a lot to lose. If they like it then next time a MEGA show is held they would be a lot more likely to give it backing.

We aint gonna get prime time on a Saturday night just yet!
108150 : The BALLS rolling GUYS !!!!

Sandy Holt
Posted: 2003-02-25 17:41:58
Monkey
Posted: 2003-02-25 19:00:20
Just a side note: motorsports in general has it's own channel in the US. And even without it's 24-7 coverage you can watch all that stuff any hour of any day pretty much in the US. Motorsport has a huge cottage industry in every respect not just in broadcasting but in merchandising. It's a bigger 'sport' period. Muay Thai and Kickboxing is no where near the same level. It could safely be considered a fringe sport internatioanlly still.
108173 : yep ur right BUT why dont we use our COLLECTIVE ENERGY

Sandy Holt
Posted: 2003-02-25 19:12:02
and experience to CHANGE the WORLD ?
if `1`Man can change HISTORY ???? as MANY have ! As history shows / tells US!
Why cant we? As we are a BIG ! (but as monkey says regarded as a MINORITY sport! True ! ) We are wanting to do something to CHANGE people to favour our FANTASTIC sport! So lets DO IT ! and turn it into something it deserves !
WE CAN DO IT !
I firmly believe it !!
cheers
sandy man
108194 : WE CAN DO IT !

Sandy Holt
Posted: 2003-02-25 21:25:16
WE WILL DO IT !!!!!!!!!
alankeddle
Posted: 2003-02-26 03:59:33
well at last I have decided to join the AX discussion this one interests me the most. Sandy and Dave Jackson's idea about uniting sounds good to me. Definetely want to be involved with that one. Perhaps meeting can be organised soon. Gonna test this first to see if this gets on Ax before I go any further. Don't want to talk as much as you Sandy!!!!! lol.
THE BULLDOG
Posted: 2003-02-26 04:18:12
Dave & everyone else - Sorry, just switched on to this subject.
I'm in, whatever you need me to do. I don't care if we make no money at all. If it was only about money, none of us would be putting shows on at all, we'd be zeroed in on something easier and more profitable. I could do without losing a fortune (same as everyone else) but if you really wanna do this, I'm in.
Lets get this meeting together so that if any of us have promotions that clash with a proposed date, we have time to re-arrange or even cancel (which I am prepared to do).
We all have TV connections, we can all rattle a few cages, so lets get on with it.
crazyhorse
Posted: 2003-02-26 05:30:17
We still haven't defined just what a MEGA show is.

IMO it would

1.) Have to be all 5*3 Full Thai

2.) Would have to have top quality Thais

3.) In a big venue - no sports hall!

4.) Same sort of ticket price.

5.) The best of britain fighting the best of britain.
crazyhorse
Posted: 2003-02-26 05:33:08
We still haven't defined just what a MEGA show is.

IMO it would

1.) Have to be all 5*3 Full Thai

2.) Would have to have top quality Thais

3.) In a big venue - no sports hall!

4.) Same sort of ticket price.

5.) The best of britain fighting the best of britain.

6.) Top quality production and commentary.
Colin.H
Posted: 2003-02-26 06:04:30
I've been speaking to quite a few people about this (fans), and no-one is that excited.
There is a definate 'i'll believe it when i see it' about the whole thing.
As a fan, i guess the only thing that matters is that we get top fighters matched against our best (everyone liked the jwp v peter crooke match).
Everyone wanted a current stadium champion over, and most people liked the idea of a famous ex fighter (like Orono)? although i think that's more nostalgia than a top fight.
No-one, myself included, believes the sport will/can work together, and several found it most amusing a suggestion since time after time the proof is there to see.
Our conclusion was that everyone wants 'a piece of it' because they don't want to be left out of things (which is understandable) but i personally believe that some people have worked so hard looking after there own interests in mt, that if there was nothing to be gained personally from such a venture then they wouldn't be interested.

Mike Duffy tried to put on a show with Dekker and Ballentine on it years ago, and that was 'brought down', and no-one could see the same type of thing NOT happening so ruthless are many of the people involved these days.
The cracks should start to appear as soon as the 'who's doing what' and 'who's fighting who' is out, and it will have to be a strong team for everyone to agree with everything as a lot of those involved have their own agenda in mt.

I'm not knocking the project, because all i want to see is top fights and good singular administration of mt in this country, but thats what people think about this that i have spoken to.
I also spoke to Dave Jackson and Dean White yesterday. Dean has a show this week with no titles and he had seven pull outs. I agree with him that interest will rely on 'whats in it' for the managers/fighters and when i mentioned about everyone working together he gave me some instances of xxx working with xxx and i have to agree with him that it isn't going to happen.
Ta for the call Dave, already it looks like the coordination of the arrangements require some allocation work :-) the very best luck with it all.
THE BULLDOG
Posted: 2003-02-26 06:41:59
There is no question that it is gonna be an asshole to deal with, and of course people will be sceptical, but it still needs to be considered.
crazyhorse
Posted: 2003-02-26 08:44:01
The amount of politics in British MT never fails to amaze me.

Its like stray cats fighting over scraps of food. No sharing or cooperation and at the end of the day there is fuck all to fight over.

Why is it like this?

In Thai boxing you have 4 groups of people -

the supporters
the fighters
the trainers
the promotors

All fighters want to do is fight. All trainers want to do is train fighters. All supporters want to do is see good fights.

The people who are holding the sport back are the promotors. MANY want to be the main men and to make as much personally out of the sport. Its laughable when you see Master Sken and Ali Jacko fighting to get into the picture when interviews are taking place.

The both are doing a lot for the sport buts it all for personal gain. In my mind, and in many others, MT has so much potential which will never be realised as long as the sport is so fragmented.

There is people out there, like Dave, Sandy, Richard, Colin, Bulldog and Alan, who want whats best for the sport. The idea for them to come together and put on brilliant shows is exactly what the sport needs.

Colin - You seem quite sceptical but I don't see why. The show wouldn't need EVERY promotor/trainer in England, just 5 or 6 who want whats best for MT. As long as they don't get involved in petty arguments then they really could pull it off.

Good luck guys!

alankeddle
Posted: 2003-02-26 08:55:38
Good to see the response about the joint venture. I share Colin H. Sceptisism about joint ventures but there is a way around this and that is to only include trainers and fighters. No promoters, no middlemen, no armchair supporters etc. Lets just get the trainers together with their relevant fighters to talk about it. I would travel anywhere for that meeting! I remember the last time we tried to get sports council recognition for example, too much interest by people trying to monopolise rather than sort the issue out. The people that train the fighters are the ones that need to meet. Many of them promote shows aswell, including myself,Sandy Holt,Sean Toomey, Dave Jackson, Karl Samms etc. However they all train fighters aswell. This is what it is really about! We are the ones that want to see our own fighters and the sport progress. to be honest I put on between 2 and 4 shows a year and it is a nighmare! Pullouts, pullouts,pullouts.... I am not surprised that Sky have shown no interest in Thai because some of the shows have had rank novices on them including mine! If anyone can tell me they havent done the same then I would like to hear! The fact is that there isn't enough money in the game to promote such a show unless the trainers get together and agree to fight for nothing. That includes me! This way you could afford to have 10 international, say England v Holland! Any more ideas?
Colin.H
Posted: 2003-02-26 16:17:34
"No armchair supporters" :-)
Crazyhorse. You would know why (not just i'm) sceptical if you knew the extent of the things that go/have gone on (or maybe you do?).... and always will i suppose. Some pretty bad things. And unbelievably, others have known whats gone on and choose to turn a blind eye and pretend it hasn't happened (but thats another story or two).

It is so easy to inadvertantly (if not deliberatly) end up with problems and disagreements. There is already a rake of problems and contradictions i can see in the posts above.

Isn't the suggestion that "just 5 or 6" trainers alienating everyone else already? (unless all the others are in agreement that the chosen ones should take this on).
There is also already different angles appearing from the ones i initially picked up from Daves post, and the need for 'everyone' to get together looks all the more important, even at this stage.
Other things that need to be decided may cause problems as things start to develope. Maybe agreeing ground rules amoungst the participating parties might help. (eg. are the best fighters or not the best fighters [poss. big ticket sellers or people who can apply the most pressure to the group] going to get the nod?)

We could talk about positives all day, but it's going to be ironing out the negatives that will make this happen and everyone be happy about it.
I just want to see a great show happen, and it would be sad if it was doomed before it started.

Traad
Posted: 2003-02-26 16:20:26
Read Colins post and he has some valid points, it comes down to whats in it for me to get involved. Well if you have the funds why don't you approach Songchai or Sammy Kebachi (spelling) to provide the international fighters. You get your boyz on show in front of those internationally known promoter against recognised opponents. You may even get the show televised on there side. When Tarik Solak did Aus vs Thai we had it on fox here and on thai TV (more exposure = more sponsors = more money). Im sure the fighters would love to display there skill in front of Songchai!! You get a deal with any of these two (especially songchai) & you watch the people jump on the bandwagon.
Colin.H
Posted: 2003-02-26 16:44:28
Traad. Songchai (or Sami Khebchi) could provide fighters (and Songchai would be a good bet to eliminate any importation problems that we wouldn't get because everyone will be working in harmony), but personally, i would like to see a 'mega show' bring in the (foreign) fighters that we want, to match our fighters who the collective chose to fight against the forigners.
(Also there could be some great domestic matches)
If we had decent 'funds' then maybe a gesture of bringing Songchai over to see the show would give him an incentive to look favourably on our fighters that do well.
It would be nice to see the fighters performances getting the rewards. Performances and oppertunity are not usually bedfellows.
All this is just me thinking out loud though
THE BULLDOG
Posted: 2003-02-27 12:00:04
I agree with all the points made by Colin, and Alan is spot on with his comments.
I feel that if we look at an event that is outstanding whilst not trying to score brownie points or take the credit individually, the idea could work.
I am prepared to meet, if people are interested in having me onboard.
I am quite happy to leave my ego outside the door and put my 5 eggs in for the good of the cause. I will do everything that I can to play my part in this idea.
108593 : LEAVE you / our EGOS @ the DOOR and we can do it !

Sandy Holt
Posted: 2003-02-27 15:26:49
I mentioned to another Instructor to put a BIN outside the Meeting ROOM !
He said ( we have one @ our gym ! i said "NICE-1 " BRING it 1
And another Instructor said
BRING a SKIP !!! as a bin AINT BIG enough ! LOL BUT true !

"QUIT the SH*T" and lets DO IT !!!
Mr Smith
Posted: 2003-02-27 18:32:02
Sorry Crazyhorse but I have to take issue with your post above.

"The amount of politics in British MT never fails to amaze me."
I actually think theres less "politics" than a lot of people think. There are very few gyms, trainers and fighters that will not work together. Most people in the game in the UK will work with most others.

"Its like stray cats fighting over scraps of food. No sharing or cooperation and at the end of the day there is fuck all to fight over."
Ive seen very little evidence of anything like this. I'd be interested for some specific examples.

"The people who are holding the sport back are the promotors"
Which ones? For the last few years there have been some great shows and the sport has been pushed forward really well. Without "promoters" there would be no shows. There is a lot of grief, a lot of risk and very little profit in promoting. Come on - name some names. Me? Sandy? Alan Keddle? Paul Hennessy? Dave Jackson? Master Sken? Steve Logan?

"The both are doing a lot for the sport buts it all for personal gain"
Why else would anyone do anything? Why else would you spend time and effort and risk money but for personal gain. Surely that is what the sport needs. Its a professional sport so if there was more money to be made we would all be better off. Dont be so naive.

"There is people out there, like Dave, Sandy, Richard, Colin, Bulldog and Alan, who want whats best for the sport."
Every single one of the above is a promoter. Who are you referring to in your criticism of promoters above if not us?

Yes it would be great for everone to unite under a single governing body and have one British Champion, One set of ratings etc. I believe that this is possible, but why will a "supershow" help this? How much is this show going to cost? 20,000?, 30,000? Wheres the money going to come from? Who is going to run it? Where is it going to be held?

It would be great to see something like a British Boxing Board of controll for our sport, but the BBBoC is a full time business that is well funded, has admin staff, secretaries, receptionists, computers etc. Who would do this and how would it be paid for?

Every meeting I've ever been to, people leave full of good intentions, but when they get home they get on with running their gyms and their businesses or jobs and dont hae the time to do anything about it.

I am sorry to be negative, but its chicken and egg. Untill theres more money in the game I dont see how this can be paid for. I will gladly attend any meeting and help in any way that I can, but I have to say that I am one of the sceptical ones.




108653 : mmm GOOD POINTS !!

Sandy Holt
Posted: 2003-02-27 19:56:12
BUT Rich lets MEET
THE BULLDOG
Posted: 2003-02-28 04:05:14
Yeah, fair do's, good points. I suppose it does depend on who is at the meeting. If you guys invite me to travel northwards I certainly won't bring my rose coloured specs. I know already what we are up against.
Mr Smith is right, there are questions to be asked about what will actually be achieved in the long run, but this meeting could be about more than just a supershow.
If it is going to happen we all have to come armed with a million questions and ideas.
We have all been talking shit forever about the idealism of one governing body etc. We have all said it's achievable. We have all done nothing concrete to make it happen. And any efforts that have been made have had no continuity, even though they have been champion efforts that have not been supported by the rest.
It's true we do leave these meetings and go back to running our gyms, waiting for someone else to take the initiative.
If anything is going to happen we will all have to play our part however signicant it may or may not seem.
I'm still in if you want me.
crazyhorse
Posted: 2003-02-28 04:25:17
The promotors I'm talking about are the ones who constantly come up with obscure titles and all they want is to put on a show, make a few bucks and walk away with 4 new 'champions'. This happens!

When I say that there is little cooperation I am bang on. How many different associations are there? How often do you see a lot of trainers coming together to put on shows that would actually cause even a stir in the British sporting world?

I don't think that every trainer has to be under one umbrella but if the bulk were under one control then it would make a difference.

Colin seems to know what Iam talking about. If you read his posts you will see;

'You would know why (not just i'm) sceptical if you knew the extent of the things that go/have gone on'

Maybe its an exaggeratiom to say that there is too much bickering but the fact that the idea of the trainers coming together to make a big show causes to much scepticism really shows the extent of the problem.



Where is the problem? Most promotors are trainers and they want the best for the sport so why should it be so hard for them to work together?

THE BULLDOG
Posted: 2003-02-28 04:31:37
Crazyhorse - I understand everything you are saying and I think yours and Colin's input is very valuable. I think a meeting with not just promoters but "real" people would only help the cause.
crazyhorse
Posted: 2003-02-28 04:42:12
The reason I think that promotors out for personal gain is a problem is because all to often they are doing it at the expense of the sport.

ie. By putting on poor shows and getting them on TV. OK so you can't guarantee top quality fights but you have to realise the damage that it does to MT when TV bosses watch 2 novices bitch slap each other.

Thats why Sky Sports has taken MT of the air. They gave it its chance and the promotors failed to deliver.

If the promotors worked together, IMO, they could put on much better shows. Sky gave them the chance to get their shows seen on a top quality channel and all they gave in return was far too many novice fights.

If, for eg, a promotor knew that his show was going to be shown on Sky, then he could easily contact other trainers of A class fighters and together they could put on a great show with enough full thai fights so show on TV. How difficult is that? Fighters relish the chance of fighting on big shows and on TV and would welcome an invitation.

However, they were content to have a show full of novice fights and had the audacity to send it off to Sky to be shown. Using last minute pullouts etc for excuses is not acceptable.

The chance for MT to take off on satellite TV was blown by the drivel that was given to Sky to air. You really can't blame them for pulling out.
Mr Smith
Posted: 2003-02-28 05:01:51
I dont know if a meeting at this stage would necessarily achieve anything. A lot of this could be roughed out before a meeting so that the main structure is in place. Most people are online so why not have an open forun and thrash out the main points before a meeting. I talked to Dave Jackson about this, this morning.

If you go to www.smartgroups.com it is possible to set up a group - we could call it "MT Board of Control" or something. Anyone can register and have an imput - and bang you've got your meeting. I am sure that this could be done on Ax, but it will take up a lot of space and would really be best kept separate IMO.

Its easy to register - let me know your thoughts.
crazyhorse
Posted: 2003-02-28 05:03:19
The point of putting on a big fight night is to show what can be achieved with a little cooperation.

The venue doesn't have to be massive, all that matters is that you have the BEST fighters in the UK competing and that the production is a little bit better. The cost isn't going to that much higher.

If you go back to the start of this discussion you will see that the object is to get Sky to show MT at an earlier time. If we could get them to show this one earlier then it will be an improvement. Success won't come overnight, it will be a gradual thing but can happen.

If this show pulls off then we have another, then another. Sky showed pretty poor MT and KB for quite some time. If we could give them much better shows then who knows what we can achieve.

At the end of the day, MT in the UK is in quite good condition. If you want it to stay in that condition then keep things the way they are going. If you want to make a difference then you have to start doing things different.

Who knows..it might just work! :)
108896 : good Input Crazyhorse !

Sandy Holt
Posted: 2003-02-28 22:39:10
I think NOW is the TIME for ALL this and This year is going well for Muay-Thai and i think we have come of age as its been here now for 26 years! just over a quarter of a century !
And the GOOD vibes ive been fealing last and this year @ shows INSPIRES me !
Watching Instructors, fighters, promoters etc; ALL talking NICELY ! it is refreshing to say the least, from what it used to be like in the U.K.
141674 : Found This Old Thread!

crazyhorse
Posted: 2003-08-26 19:40:51
So whatever happened to this big show we had planned? : )
Sandy Holt
Posted: 2003-08-26 19:43:53
haha Revival revival !

Like many things ! they get forgotten
:(((((((((((((
Sid Remmer
Posted: 2003-08-27 06:56:00
If the internet and at-show fight betting is successfull, I will put up the money. Thats a promise.
IMO we need a dedicated venue (perhaps 2 - one in the north and 1 in the south). Then we could have stadium champions - regulate fair and proper purses - unify titles. I feel that if a dozen + trainers/promoters/fans/fighter/INVESTORS got behind it, then it would be indipendant. And it would be affordable. And I believe that this sort of organisation would have the media knocking at our door, not the other way round! Its not a new idea for crying out loud - look at thailand!

Or hows about 100 axers putting up 1000 each for a share in the business? would that get things rolling or what? The stadium should be cheap as chips to build (its only a glorified shed). Its time cos like Mr Smith says - the politics really aint that bad now.
crazyhorse
Posted: 2003-08-27 09:45:30
Nice one Sid! We need more people like you in the sport - people who think big!

I don't think we need to build a stadium. There are already existing venues which would do the job nicely.

None of the ideas in this thread are new. Look at Superleague and K1. What they have is;

1.) A recognisable brand name

2.) Money behind them.

3.) Quality fighters

4.) Proper marketing

5.) Cooperation.

In this country we have some great shows but its too fragmented. If promotors start thinking big and work together then maybe we can start getting a circuit set up like K1 or Superleague. That really should be the aim of British MT.

It doesn't mean that all the small shows have to stop. However, I think British MT could really use a 'flag ship'. Something that we could use to promote MT as an attractive and commercially viable sport. It only has to happen 5 or 6 times a year.

And betting would be the icing on the cake. Brits love to gamble and thousands go to watch dogs run around a track. How many would come to bet on hard, raw muaythai action?
dirty dave
Posted: 2003-08-27 10:30:25
Good posts above.

The idea of a fixed venue appeals to me but we'd need more than just a North/South thing though, regional would be better IMO. The UK being an Island tends to make us an insular society which never seems to look farther afield than Grimsby for ideas on how to solve problems. Or put another way, why can't we just copy the Thai model with fixed venues most important the GAMBLING.
The issue of betting at shows has come up before with no real consequence I reckon this is the key to making it all worthwhile for everyone involved.

SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!!
chipper
Posted: 2003-08-28 09:00:10
Just as a suggestion for a Muay Thai commentator for TV. I can think of no one better than Tony Myers. He is a university lecturer with many years of MT experiance. It is just my opin, but I also believe he is one of the foremost experts of MT who can cast judgement in an unbiased and authorative way. It would be nice to hear someone with extensive Thai boxing knowledge comentate, rather than the biased promoters cronies (just on some shows) we've had to endure. I do however agree that M.M. is improving, shame his MT knowledge is limited. Also, sorry to reignite the subject but, has anyone seen a statement from Ali Jacko yet??????
chipper
Posted: 2003-08-28 09:00:11
Just as a suggestion for a Muay Thai commentator for TV. I can think of no one better than Tony Myers. He is a university lecturer with many years of MT experiance. It is just my opin, but I also believe he is one of the foremost experts of MT who can cast judgement in an unbiased and authorative way. It would be nice to hear someone with extensive Thai boxing knowledge comentate, rather than the biased promoters cronies (just on some shows) we've had to endure. I do however agree that M.M. is improving, shame his MT knowledge is limited. Also, sorry to reignite the subject but, has anyone seen a statement from Ali Jacko yet??????
141959 : hope ya NOT refferring to me ? :-p

Sandy Holt
Posted: 2003-08-28 13:42:50
I know i commentate fairly and Literally and i think my 26 years in the sport helps
I DONT KNOW it ALL !!!
But i speak ok and clear and informative !
I try my best every time !
And i love to do it ! very Enthuiastic aboutit too !
chipper
Posted: 2003-08-29 05:12:12
No I'm not aiming my critisism at you Sandy Man (paranoid git) and hope you did not take offence. It would be unfair for me to start naming names, as I do not want to get into a slanging match. It is just my opinion that the standard of some of the other commentators has been poor and their commentary biased and obviously biased. The suggestion of Tony Myers was made because I have been impressed by his extensive knowledge as a judge and referee, qualified in Thailand. He is also writing his doctorate on Muay Thai Judging and has extensively interviewed the top refs and judges in the sport. The combination of a history of public speaking and the aforementioned knowledge base makes him an ideal choice. My only wish is that the commentators representing Muay Thai, commentated in an authouratative and knowledgable way.
Another reason for my obvious admiration for Mr myers, a point away from this discussion, is the fact that he is willing to share his very extensive knowledge with other martial artist without any conditions. He does not ask you to join an association, he very often will train people for no payment( if they put the effort in), and does not expect deferance just respect for the art and others. He also never slags people off and seems to transcend the politics that mire our sport. This is not to say that there are not others who put in the kind of energy that Tony puts into promoting the sport, but sadly they are too few. Respect to you Sandy Man( particuarly after the stance you took at the London show and our conversation there), hope that clears things up.

Charlie

Sandy Holt
Posted: 2003-08-29 14:40:09
no offence taken ( soz i was sounding paranoid LOL )
YEP Tony is a great Advocate for Thai-Boxing
known him for many many years Great Knowledgable bloke !
Col
Posted: 2003-08-29 17:44:33
The only way Mt or KB will be attractive to TV companies is when they can get vieiwing figures to attract advertisers and unfortunately two blokes trying to beat crap out of each other while strange oriental music is playing in the background isnt going to sell Audi's, Mercedes ,or American Express travellers cheques. The sport needs a wider audiance other than AX posters! and as you lot slag off everything its no surprise that Sky are pulling out, as it cant even get the support of people engaged in the sport.


in previous postings Smiler informs us that K1 on Eurosport rates very highly in terms of audiance figures and that it has made a cross over in terms of demographics attracting a wider audiance. If that is correct, then they are not aiming the programmes at us but at footy, tennis, motorsport etc etc fans.
For them thats obviously the way to go.

No offence intended but in my experiance half the promoters that post here can't fill an event or make a profit so what makes us experts?
I am in no doubt someone will rush to answer that!

Ps I think Sandy Holt does a brilliant job! Theres them that can and thems that knock!
Sandy Holt
Posted: 2003-08-30 14:04:14
col many thanks ! i try i luv it loads and its easier to try when you Luv something Passionatly
I know nothing else !
cheers ! :)
Sponsor
Col
Posted: 2003-09-22 14:06:08
I 'm still waiting for the mega event that all the AXers on this thread have been rambling on about?

Talk is cheap and it seems thats all tha goes on here.

Sad very sad!
Sponsor:
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