Sanda VS M.T. again

Sanda VS. M.T. has become a match every year. 7th this month, the lastest match was finished in Guangzhou,rule is the same as in Bankok king birthday last year.the result is China 6:1 win .
Muay thai did no KO on Chinese becouse Chinese improved their strength and antiknock . Muay thai also gave Chinese deep impression on their spirit of never saying lose.
the news aboved from www.ycwb.com

[img]http://www.ycwb.com/img/2002-09/08/ktb2903d.jpg[/img]

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Looks like Canadian flags on that chick. Who is she.

So who won and who lost??

Last year was different rules than bangkok... No elbows and its seemed the refs wouldnt let the thais go to town with the knees.

Pretty boring to watch.

who were the fighters?

elbow and knee allowed
muay thai female from canada

This Chinese martial art is dangerous, not to the opponents but to the ones who use it. They keep thrusting their heads towards people's legs in the hope to grab and throw. When the Chinese charge, you just step your favorite leg back for good balance and bang your rear knee at their heads (but the chinese forbid this for their own sake) and now they are recruiting a lot of nak muay thai in Thailand ( at 10,000 odd Baht per month) to teach them MT but without crediting MT art at all.

Wirun, what you call "thrusting their heads towards people's legs" is called a shoot and is well known in not only San Shou but wrestling and MMA. ANd so far in this series of events the shoot has been very effective as the Thai fighters have been thrown many times. Additionally, knee to head IS LEGAL in these events. Sometimes the Thai have succeeded in kneeing the head, other times not. Especially at the beginning they were not at all used to the throws and it showed a lot.

As for Thais teaching Muay Thai, there might be a few in China, actually I know for a fact of one, but the major San Shou programs in China are still Chinese run...

have a nice day

sort of a side topic but my buddy is Kong Essan is teaching in Hong Kong...

Is there an English version of that site, I tried to use Altavista translations but cos Chinese is an idiomatic language I just get stuff like this:

the male basket championship tournament 直击 } the golden sheep net first time small net friend meeting } the individuality car license comprehensively calls to stop } raises the dog has difficultly?

and

The complete special gold sheep short note user registers the handset number secret cipher:

which probably aren't the true meaning!

Mark L,
Muay Thai is very popular in Hong Kong, before the re-unification there was no san shou in HK and for fighting most people eneded up doing MT or boxing... sadly HK became a hot bed of quick cash kung Fu schools with little substance, especially after they stopped doing South East Asian Cup there...

Where is San da and San shou most popular within China?

King of San Da circuit first started in Shandung province, it is still hugely popular there, but with CCTV showing it all over China it is pretty much getting to be a household thing now, I have a student whose family is in HK, they watch it 2 times a week

Top programs/teams are Beijing, Shanghai, Nanjing and Inner Mongolia...

Thanks lkfmdc
Then it is a fair competition.The rules must have been changed from the one I watched live in Thailand. By the way could you tell me the technique to shoot(charge) low safely?

Damn, I'll go a few rounds with this girl if you know what I mean ;)

Shooting low safely has to do more with timing than anything else. Picking the best opportunity when you feel the opponent isn't ready to throw a knee at your face.

the girl with the canadian flag on her shorts is carrie carruthers. i think she is from victoria or vancouver bc. she fought angela rivera in las vegas last year.

Very sensible Brian. Hope one mistake won't give my face a completely different smile. And judging from James's excitement I don't think he's gonna last long.

Sadly, a lot of people shoot poorly, not just in San Shou but in MMA also, you can not simply bend at the waist the charge forward, if you don't get kneed, you will get your head pushed down and go no where. A good shoot is more like a squat, bend the knees, keep the shin bone under the chest and head up, this way for example you could still hope to block a knee. Timing is a HUGE factor, you clinch and shoot too soon and BANG you get kneed or hit or kicked, or thrown down, all bad stuff :) In San Da, we let you throw ONE knee then shoot as the leg is going back, ie when you are least prepared to counter the shoot, my gym does this anyway, I've seen teh Chinese try and shoot horribly a few times in the Muay Thai vs San Da matches so far... Also they keep switching coaches which is pretty stupid, no consistency

I read some interesting coverage from the Chinese Wushu Association regarding the event... even gave round by round scores, of 5 men's fights = 5 wins, one loss, 3 of the wins were very close (3 rounds to 2 rounds) showing that the scoring and judging seemed on the surface pretty fare. Chinese fighter who lost (65 kg) lost ALL 5 rounds... they sort of ragged on him for that :)

First win of night for China was impressive though, Chinese fighter fractured the Thai's bone near his eye in first round with a cross...

duh, I mean 6 men's fights obviously :(

Muay Thai team blamed nothing of the match for chinese got a clean win without referee bias.

The matchs between muay thai and sanda will be more and more exciting.becouse two sides aim to promote their art to the Olympics and business opportunities.neither Muay Thai nor sanda want to see a bad result of his own.

it's good if both teams are satisfied, first few were confusing and both sides had issues, but in the long run it is better for both parties if these events continue (plus, this style makes my training my guys so much easier LOL)

those chinese winner in Sept. 7th Muay thai vs. Sanda all fail enter 1/4 final in National sanda champion held now in Guangdong which final is in 20th this month.
this is meaned that muay thai and sanda are quite different in rule ,tech...

Actually, this doesn't say anything about Muay Thai but rather about differences in San Shou/San Da formats. Events of China vs Thailand are under King of San Da format, in a ring and with a certain scoring, the national competition is held on Lei Tai platform and scored differently, and has no elbows and I think this year no knees (keep changing darn rules!)

forgive me, I just like this pic :)

another pic from the fights...

and what I could gather from a CWA "news flash"

Apparently, they have set up the matches so that the last four they have done have been calls "championship rounds", ie since Thailand had won the two events in Thailand and China had won in Macau, this would either tie up the championship series or let Thailand pull ahead so to speak. Tensions were high.

According to the CWA, the Chinese team has absorbed lessons from their losses in Thailand. In view of Thai boxing’s power， the strongest Chinese fighters were chosen. Matches were held in 56、60、65、70、75、80 Kilogram Level and female 60 Kilogram Level for a total of seven matches

56 started off with Zhou Yong Jin winning by 4 rounds to 1

60 kg is an easy win with 5：0 for China

After losing the first two matches, Thai team starts to counter-attack

65 Kg, China loses badly, 0 to 5

70 kg 29 year-old Chinese figher is "veteran" with "rich competition to experience" match is close by China finally wins by 3 to 2.

Female 60 Kilogram, Wang Zhan Li repeatedly utilizes quickly throws to 5：0 Victory.

75Kilogram first round is even. in the second round China adjustments tactics, and China lands HUGE cross to face

80 kg is close by China wins 3:2

It is not Muay Thai when you wear pads on elbows and clinches are broken up after three seconds - how can you cut someone when you are wrapped up tighter than an Egyptian mummy? Call it what it is - San DA versus watered down, piss weak modified Muay Thai.


I have several of these tapes and they are a snoozefest - far better events are held between Thailand and Burma. IKFMDC - I would love to see a rule allowing downward elbows, i think that would go some way to addressing these lazy and sloppy shoots which seem to be a feature of these events. Knee to the head is a risky move to counter the shoot - MMA has proven that the sprawl or downward elbow to the back of the head (now banned but used brutally by Orlando Weit and Don Frye in one of the early UFC's) are possibly the most effective counter's however they are not allowed in these events.

It is not Muay Thai when you wear pads on elbows and clinches are broken up after three seconds - how can you cut someone when you are wrapped up tighter than an Egyptian mummy? Call it what it is - San DA versus watered down, piss weak modified Muay Thai.


I have several of these tapes and they are a snoozefest - far better events are held between Thailand and Burma. IKFMDC - I would love to see a rule allowing downward elbows, i think that would go some way to addressing these lazy and sloppy shoots which seem to be a feature of these events. Knee to the head is a risky move to counter the shoot - MMA has proven that the sprawl or downward elbow to the back of the head (now banned but used brutally by Orlando Weit and Don Frye in one of the early UFC's) are possibly the most effective counter's however they are not allowed in these events.

Piranha, it's sad that you want to turn a pretty normal thread into a pissing contest, and sadly you are misinformed about a lot of things...

Clinches are not broken in "three seconds", only when there is no action. If you have any of the tapes you'd see that.

As for elbows, the REDUCE cuts, don't eliminate them. The Thai's only victory at the Macau event right before this one was cutting badly Yu Yuan Bao's head with an elbow. It was so bad China had to concede.

And downward elbows are LEGAL, so so much for that little complaint of yours

Reality is that China is fighting well, and the playing field is pretty even, why you want to make an issue is beyond me

does anyone have the names of the fighters?

thank you

IKFMDC,

If someone does not agree with then you start on the insults - it is no wonder that you rub a lot of people up the wrong way here and on MMA.tv.

First point - downward elbows legal you say - yes i agree from the stand up position but if you read i was referring (and agreeing with you on a point) to downward elbow to the back of the head / neck area when the "shooter" is virtually face first to the canvas. You can't even agree with you or suggest a technique without you coming the "you are misinformed.....blah,blah".

Second point - grapple only broken up after three seconds if no action. BULLSHIT. The tapes prove it time amd time again, events from last year / early this year had the grapple broken up after one or two knees. There was plenty of action and in a lot of cases the stupid ref stepped in between whilst the fighters where jostling for position or chambering knees.

I love your little digs - you come across as a self centred fool David. I offerred to go through the fights on KB event with you and did so with the first one (remember i gave you the stats and success rate of the shoots) and you came back opting out of the discussion as you stated it didn't prove anything. Grow up will you! - you post all over the net about Sanda even admitting that you cant figure out what is happening with the rules at times yet when someone is not as close to and as informed about the incessant rule changes as you are you start being a prat.


Makes me wonder if you are this abrasive in person? You know what is really sad - you could be a source of information for San Da which i actually enjoy but you unfortunately are not, guys like Khun Kao have got it all over you.

Piranha,
Oh Y A W N with capital letters, you want to turn this thread into a flame war when so far it has been nothing of the sort. I won't jump at the bait, sorry to disappoint you.

Your post makes no sense - "downward elbow to the back of the head / neck area when the "shooter" is virtually face first to the canvas"

These aren't MMA fights, there is no hitting once the person is down. And the fact remains that the Muay Thai fighters with few exceptions have had little if any sprawl, FOR GOOD REASON, you don't sprawl in Muay Thai. So what was your point again?

If you don't like me, I guess I will go out in the backyard and eat worms. I'm so sad....

I totally agree with your last point... I, as many people, know little about San Shou/Da but am always interested to find out more about it... IKFMDC, as the main SS man on this board could be a fountain of interesting information but he has chosen, instead, to play the 'SS v MT' game over and over. He has comprehensively forged a reputation as an unlikable character who favours personal attacks to constructive, rational argument/discussion.

why do we bother arguing witch is better? MT and SS are like Same but differnt. i mean they have differnt ways of useing the same tool so who cares as long as you can use it right. any ways i still think MT rocks. big respect for SS though

MT and Chinese martial arts have very little in common. All MT weapons have their names clearly defined for centuries(from Siam era), MT movements and combinations are called with a phrase of poem derived from Ramayana epics and Thai natural surroundings. While Chinese's have their own names and very different in their ways of kicking, punching and the teaching traditions. I have chinese origin so very familiar with how Chinese actually fight(My granpa,grandma only spoke chinese), and very surprised to see them use many of MT arts. I still think they should credit the arts that they borrow something from.

Wirun, with all due respect it is almost impossible to make any definitive statement that will cover ALL Chinese martial arts. China is a huge country with many regional variations and differences. Many "Chinese martial arts" though coming from same nation state are nothing alike. Some have little if any similarity to Muay Thai while other techniques found in Chinese martial art are very similar. In fact, not to be offensive but rather to state the obvious, many think that Thai arts were highly influenced by Chinese arts. "Ogre steals the maiden" is simply "grasping the jade belt" in Chinese. "Breaking the elephant's tusk" is called "standing on Mt Tai" etc etc... there is no need to "steal" something you already have!

have a nice day

All this Muay Thai vs Sanshou is just the Chinese ways of
saying they have deafeated muay thai. I'm waiting for the day when Chinese
Sanshou fighters come to fight in Lumpinee or Rachdamnern and fight our
rules. The Thai's have been way to nice agreeing with what ever the
Chinese Sanshou organizations tell them to do. The Thai's have faught
Sanshou Rules and most did very very well. I "Know" if it was the other
way around if Sanshou comes and competes in Muay Thai they would not
do as well as Muay Thai does in Sanshou. I garanteed if those Sanshou guys
would ever agree to come to Lumpuinee and try fighting Thai rules.
The Sanshou guys won't make it till the third round and if they
do they will go back home to China with broken limbs.
-One thing I do like about China is them people are "smart"..
They will never fight Thai rules at first I thought they were COWARDS but no
it is very intelligent of them. On the other hand us Thai's are not very
smart we bring guys to China to fight there rules which favors them.

I have seen a King of Sanda guy who actualy competed in something
besides Sanda/Sanshou. It was the K-1 Max tournament I was soo embarassed for the Sanda guy. He was turning his back and "running" trying to avoid the heavy Kicks from Thailand Lumpuinee champion Kaolan Kaovichit. Sanda guys don't know
how to hit or take a hit.
My opinon is that Sanda/Sanshou is good for itself.. but it is not as rounded
as Muay Thai. Muay Thai can compete in several different diciplines
-Boxing
-Kyokushin Karate
-Shootboxing
-Full Contact Kickboxing
-Taekwondo ect...
and what I mean is the Thai totally fighting the other diciplines rules
I could never imagine a King of Sanda guy just boxing or fighting in
a Taekwondo tournament.

I have seen all the Muay thai vs Sanshou series yes Muay Thai lost I am
not affraid to admit. But when watching these videos it is frustrating
because the Thai's look better. They are beating the crap out of these
Sanshou dudes kicking them kneeing them punching them. But all the Sanshou
guys have to do is push the Thai off balance or these little throws.
Big major points for the Chinese resulting in a always win!!!

This is my opinon why I dislike these Sanshou vs Muay Thai macthups is
to me the winner of the bout. Should be the guy that kicked the shit out
you. I have not seen yet none of the Chinese Sanshou guys throws hurting a Thai but. I have seen more Thai's hurting and knocking-out there Sanshou
opponents.

thongsai, all I am gonna say is I guess you didn't see the K-1 Oceana where Tian Jin and Ahn Hu both went to the semi finals, beating Muay Thai fighters along the way. That was not San Shou rules, they couldnt' throw, and yet the DEFEATED Muay Thai guys...

David,

Teng Jhun and An Hu competed in the K-1 Asia tournament in 2000, NOT the K-1 Oceana tournament. Not to take anything away from their accomplshments, but they didn't defeat any really good fighters and they were eventually defeated in the tournament.

I insist they are not pure authentic chinese martial arts. Chinese and Thais are different tribes from the beginning. Even now there is a small group of Thai people in Southern China living a completely different lifestyle(speaking Thai also). The reasons some Chinese said MT should be influenced by Chinese was the old history books saying that Thais moved down from Altai in China, but after the discovery of ancient Thais grave in the present time Thailand, the old books are now obsolete. Chinese striking martial arts originated from Taoism and later Shaolin(Mahayan sect) school, the grabs and throws are influenced by Persians(now Iran)and Mongols and very little resemble MT. MT originated in Siam down south and influenced by Hindu and Buddhism(Lankan Hinayan sect) cultures. If you put Thai swords and stick(Krabi Krabong) in MT fighters'hands they can apply their MT skills to fight with weapons easily because they came together in the first place. But if you put Chinese narrow swords or the Tao swords in these new breeds of Chinese fighters you will see the conflicts. "KhunYak Pha Nang"(which is not a throw) is still different from "grasping the jade belt" just as "Breaking the great elephant's trunk(not tusk)" is from "Standing on Mt.Tai" in both how and why to execute. How to move forward or backward, how to stand guard, all are different, especially the concept of defence from the humbleness of Thais. Chinese are arrogant and will never accept truths easily, that's why they even change the meanings of Nirvana of buddhism into a kind of heaven full of worldly hapiness.

I know my posts aren't as interesting as the "My dad is bigger than your dad" type stuff that gets posted on the MT vs. Sanda threads, but if anyone knows, would you please be so kind as to post the athletes names and the fight results. It's more interesting to me than "The Thai beat the Chinese fighter" or "The Chinese fighter beat the Thai".

This is important to me because:

These guys have names, and should be recognized for their accomplishments.

I'd like be a bit more familar with some of the Chinese fighters names.

I'd like to know who the Thais were, as I'm a big Muaythai fan, and I'm curious to know which fighters competed in these events.

Thanks in advance for your time.

Wow Wiran, sorry, but you seem to have a lot of hang ups...

- "I insist they are not pure authentic chinese martial arts"

If you insisted the earth was flat, would it be flat? I could ask you of course what you really know about Chinese martial arts?

- "The reasons some Chinese said MT should be influenced by Chinese"

Actually, my friend, there are many Thai who say this

"Chinese striking martial arts originated from Taoism and later Shaolin(Mahayan sect) school' -

This "history" is so far off as to not even be funny. There are THOUSANDS of Chinese martial arts and many are neither Taoist nor Shaolin. I can only imagine where you get your facts??

- "KhunYak Pha Nang"(which is not a throw) is still different from "grasping the jade belt" just as "Breaking the great elephant's trunk(not tusk)" is from "Standing on Mt.Tai" in both how and why to execute -

I think that MANY people will say that "ogre steals the maiden" is a throw my friend, even if it isn't a "judo throw". And if you insist to talk about the "how and why" of Chinese martial art technique then I must ask you what Chinese martial art training you have had??

- "Chinese are arrogant"

RACISM of any form has no place on this thread or this forum

- "that's why they even change the meanings of Nirvana of buddhism into a kind of heaven full of worldly hapiness"

NOr should we debate the merits of world religions and their interpretations.

I have seen An Hu, and Teng Jhun fight twice in K-1 live, and I was not impressed at all. dont get me wrong, i am not judging San shou by there performance, but they sucked, all they did was throw 1 punch or 1 kick, and then hold, They both were warned constantly for holding, and were eventually lost a point from holding so much, there fights were the most boring I have ever seen. everyone was booing, and that does not happen hardly at all in Japan.

The tapes I have with Tian Jin and An Hu are in Japanese and I don't speak Japanese, so go figure, I thought it was a different event. On the tape Tian Jin KO'd one of the guys with a side kick, if that was the event, that didn't impress you?? The next week they won their fights at Shootboxing.

As for holding, well, in San Shou/San Da we hold to throw so it's force of habit I guess you'd say, I saw them step in to set up throws then realize that it was illegal so they stopped

Ahhh......KFC - I won't mince words - HORSESHIT - Stick your Chinese brothers in the ring with Don Frye, Rickson Gracie, Mo SMith, Tank Fatty Abbott or Kimo if you are so confident. My guess is they would get spanked and exposed for the CRAP fighters that they really are. Thongsai has it right......bring it to Thailand....if they have the balls. If you are so well know KFC, set it up unless you are too busy....

Thongasai,

All i can say is AMEN brother!!!! The Chinese San Shou has been tested under its rules but under no other yet the Chinese now claim some form of superiority. Crap. IKFMDC keeps missing the point. We are not arguing that San Shou is not good and not enjoyable PRACTICED AT ITS ELITE LEVELS BUT THE CHINESE PRACTIONERS ARE FOUND SEVERELY AND I MEAN SEVERLY LACKING IN MANY SKILLS AND ARE NOT ADAPTIVE TO DIFFERRING RULES. Many Thai fighters have competed in all the events listed above - sure there have been mixed results and some events have made us shake our heads but they have tested themselves. San Shou champions - FIGHT IN LUMPINEE WITH LUMPINEE CHAMPIONS.


IKFMDC himself has admitted that the Chinese are not a good example to hold forth for San Shou but how does this happen? How does the originating country come to be one of the also rans compared to say the Russians, Uzbekistanians in the Draka series which are supposedly (i have not seen enough to pass judgement myself) superior to the Chinese circuit? Such a thing would be a disaster in any other sport - could you imagine Australia the NFL champions? What is the difference attributable to? Many are leaning towards these practioners in other countries bringing learned "outside" techniques, skills or training routines into their San Shou practice and strengthing what is not a style but rather turns out to be a set of competitive rules much the same as the US spawned the UFC and eventual competition coupled with experience and the human desire to win by seeking every advantage spawned this new "old" arena - that of Mixed Martial Arts.


BTW IKFMDC Re downward elbow - i did not say the recepient was on the canvas but rather was following on from your point of poor shoots, ie bent over virtually horizontal at the waist, tongue hanging out and grabbing feebly at the leg as the Chinese seem wont to do beyond the second round. And guess what - in Lumpinee such candy ass shoots would be punished. But i guess the Chinese know that and thats why they insist on wearing these bandages that supposedly dont do anything? Dont do anything - they why did the Chinese insist on fighting with them? And in MMA - know i now why they banned the downward elbow, its to save San Shou fighters lives.

short history of San Shou, originally was a MILITARY training method. Military people obviously aren't interested in points, they are interested in FIGHITNG to live... From 1927 to around 1980 San Shou was strictly military activity. NO one else was allowed to do it. You could even be put in prison for having San Shou books or teaching it to non military.

Russians and former Soviets got exposed to San Shou by military exchanges, politics dictated for a long time that Russians and Chinese military would have exchanges. Most if not all Russian and former Soviet San Shou fighters of early day (coaches NOW) trained with Chinese military in military academies

Same for many other non-Chinese countries. My teacher = ex military

ie outside of China many if not most programs are military = POWER flavor

In 1980, Chinese gov't decided to make San Shou a SPORT and present it on world stage, set up SPORT academies, etc

National team and many King of San Da guys are from this SPORT = POINT flavor

When I saw Hu, and Jhun fight it was K-1 japan 99, and 00. and they did not fair well. You may remember in 00 Hu was Ko'd by Musashi, it was also the same event where he gave Nakasako a terribly late hit. The event with the side kick KO, must be more resent, because I have seen every K-1 in japan untill April of the this year, but I would be intersted to see the ones your talking, about.
Maybe I can get a copy of some these matches you all argue about so much when I'm in Hong Kong in a few months, maybe even get some sparring in with some san shou/ sanda guys.

Forgive my insensitivity on people's hearts, I've slapped my hands for that.

Chris, I have only seen the tournament where the San Da guys each won two matches and then lost decisions in finals, it's in Japanese and I don't speak it so sorry I don't know which event it was in. In first match, round kicks high and low, though a lot of holding because of what I mentioned. 2nd fight, side kick KO. That one's good of course :)

San Da isn't super man fighting, but it is legitimate and deserves respect, all too often the Muay Thai fanatics want to take away from it, that is my only point, you don't get tall by trying to make others short

No!!!there's nothing MT want to take away from Chinese arts.

Frankly, I was shocked to hear the first time that Chinese fighters were going to do K-1, it is a very different game, more different from San Shou than even full Muay Thai (because in K-1 you can not clinch, not catch the kick, etc). But the matches I saw they did well, I would have trained them differently and know some ways they could have done better, but I wasn't there to coach them.

In China, they have tons of opportunities to do San Shou and San Da and so that is what they do, often to negative effect because they only fight their own style and get used to the one format. Outside of China, like the US, there isn't many if at times any San Shou so we have to fight Muay Thai a lot. You get used to fighting that style of fight, as far as the opponent's "flavor" and you learn to adapt your game more. We still side kick, most San Shou fighters block the knees but don't use them much (my gym is an exception, probably because when the two coaches were fighting, we both used a lot of knees in those days when they were legal), so what we learn to do is use San Shou tools to fight a Muay Thai fight. Chinese didn't get this chance until now, and to their detriment, they're first shot was against top Muay Thai guys

Still, they are doing well, better than anyone expected, and so I think that's something they should get some respect for, it isn't "my --- is bigger" at all

Like I said - Stick em in the ring with Bob Sapp, Hickson Gracie, Don Frye, Tank Abbott - see what happens - They'll get squashed like bugs

Rockhard,
Y A W N with capital letters. A San Da fighter in MMA would have probably the same result as any other fighter, ie it is based upon the fighter and his preparations. If he trains hard, learns the rules and acquires the necessary skills (for MMA, everyone needs ground work, even Muay Thai fighters) he has the same chances as everyone

the US is far from a San Shou power house but a third tier US San Shou figher fought Ken Shamrock in an early UFC. Shamrock had a lot of trouble taking him down, even injured his knee doing it. And of course, the Russian that beat Cung Le in 1999 is fighting in RINGS now and is undefeated.

KFC - Yea, yawn, yawn yawn.......Like many have said....stick them in the ring under Thai rules or UFC rules.....then what..then they get punished? Who fought Shamrock in the UFC???

Rockhard, it's really hard to believe you are an adult man, and you seem to have a reading comprehension problem, a guy who is THIRD RATE in US San Shou fought Shamrock, I forget which event, it was an early one, and Shamrock hurt his knee trying to take him down...

its hard to believe someone so grossly over weight can train a fighting art. not saying anyone in particular just a thought....

you want to believe internet bullshit, that's your business, I gained some weight after I had a serious injury (by the way this is James Miller/Tampa NHB/the scorpion trolling under different names) but right now I'm around 182. I'll post a current pic tormorrow I guess, just so you idiots are shown for what you are

you want to believe internet bullshit, that's your business, I gained some weight after I had a serious injury (by the way this is James Miller/Tampa NHB/the scorpion trolling under different names) but right now I'm around 182. I'll post a current pic tormorrow I guess, just so you idiots are shown for what you are

this is me with my team at this San Shou nationals, I"m wearing white sneakers so I stand out pretty easily

You'll never change will you KFC???

yeah rockhard, you are on high moral ground aren't you? When you can't make up a good argument, make personal attacks? Like I should have to defend them?, but it is fun because all it is are 18 year old kids like "grafter" who have never really trained or fought or done anything and who are full of crap... as you'll see. What you should be sad about is sinking to their level, as you are not an 18 year old kid and from what I gather you have actually trained and fought

Everyone knows how you are KFC. It doesn't take me or my personal attacks to enlighten them to this. BTW - You have gathered correctly.....

the picture is a lot clearer and of me a whole week ago, about as current as it gets, just in case anyone is really curious (though, even if I were 50 lbs heavier as I was during my injury the question of what that has to do with my coaching skills remains)

This thread started off so refreshing, not a flame war, Wiran had some strong opions surely but we seemed to work it all out, it's sad how many internet wannabe's there are like "grafter" who is a known troll who posts under like 5 different names. Rockhard has trained and fought and so that merits respect, so it's sad that he has to act this way.

I dont' have anything more to say, I've said what I said. And it is apparent what the deal is as I never said a single negative thing and yet the trolls come out of the wood work

have a nice day

hmm..for a guy who nevered practiced muaythai,you sure like to sport the label.

inevitable, when all other avenues of argument fail = resort to the lettering on one's trunks

yenski, whatever makes you happy, have a nice day

lol!and yeah the letters say,"muaythai".an art that you dont practice.so you technically youre a poser,a wannabe, and fraud!

if that makes you happy yehski, that's great, have a nice day

yes,yes it does.

I hate to see this post come to this, but that short's comment is way out there. Who cares who wears muaythai shorts. There simply the easiest to come by, Hell anyone who want to buy them can wear. This style verus style crap, and this flaming is getting out of hand now, Im not going to put the blame on anyone in peticular but lets stop. This is meant to talk about fights that happend verusus some Thai, and Chinese competiters, this proves nothing to which style is better, it just shows which fighter was better on that given day so lets give it a rest

- "There simply the easiest to come by" -

yes, indeed, hit the nail on the head, and I've said it before, you simply can't buy shorts in the US that DO NOT have Thai lettering on them, and frankly who cares, as long as you can kick in them (which you can't in boxing shorts)

I'm abandoning optimism as a paradigm for relating to people on the internet...

- "There simply the easiest to come by" -

yes, indeed, hit the nail on the head, and I've said it before, you simply can't buy shorts in the US that DO NOT have Thai lettering on them, and frankly who cares, as long as you can kick in them (which you can't in boxing shorts)

I'm abandoning optimism as a paradigm for relating to people on the internet...

I think the San Shou shorts with the Chinese script look pretty cool.. If I buy some does that automatically make me a SS man?

yes, it would, in fact, even thinking about such a thing is grounds for being thrown out of the church of the holy MT Nazi

if I didn't have to go to China to get some, maybe we'd wear them more

Somebody, please tell us who the fighters were......

lkfmdc, do you know about any of the San Shou guys who fought in this? Are they any good?

Getting the Thai fighers names is very hard because they sound out and transliterate their names into Chinese, I could try. One of the Thais was easy to figure out since he is well known and he ended up on the cover of a Chinese mag so people here recognized him. I have to look up the names of the latest guys, the names of the other guys should be on http://www.angelfire.com/sd2/kingofsanda under "past events"

I mean that the names of the Chinese guys are pretty much on that site, with some of the Thai fighters as well.

Most are King of San Da guys, so good pros though not always the best, as I said, funny thing is that many top San Shou guys are not Chinese

kfc,if you think im a mt nazi cause' of my comments about the shorts than why dont you trade in your kung-fu uniform for a karate one?it wouldnt matter right?and if you other guys dont care for the style vs. style thing,than why are you commenting on a "ss vs. mt" post?lets just call it kickboxing from now on.

couldn't find the news clip from this event yet, but for those interested in the event right before this (May in Macau)

52 kg - Liu Zhen (China) vs. Attachai (Thailand)
WINNER: Liu

56 kg - Kang Yonggang (China) vs. Yoddecha (Thailand)
WINNER: Kang

60 kg - Han Lei (China) vs. Yodsaenchai (Thailand)
WINNER: Han

65 kg - Yu Dawei (China) vs. Petchseenil (Thailand)
WINNER: Yu

70 kg - Lin Jianshen (China) vs. Dendanai (Thailand)
WINNER: Lin

72 kg - Zheng Yuhao (China) vs. Duan-Isarn (Thailand)
WINNER: Zheng

75 kg - Nengtakan (Thailand) vs. Yuan Yubao (China)
WINNER: Nengtakan

Nengtakan is one where elbow opened huge cut and they had to throw in the towel

Sad I have to "ACT" what way? I'm not acting pal....this is me.

Everyone on this board knows you are a member of the San Shou Nazi's and while I do not think San Shou is near what you make it out to be, I do think there are some San Shou fighters that may well be very good. I just haven't seen very many at all.

When the San Shou guys fight the Thai's in China I see a double standard that is truly laughable. Please don't tell me I don't know the rules or what the truth is as I am sure many have seen the same thing I have(No, not just Muay Thai Nazi's). A Chinese guy gets knocked down and he gets rest time for some odd reason (perhaps an illegal blow by the Thai?) yet if a Thai goes down, the crowd goes wild and everyone thinks its a knockdown when he simply slipped. Thsi is typical mainland Chinese mentality to win at all costs for the love of the country - EVEN IF THIS MEANS CHEATING!

PLEASE - give me the name of the San Shou guy who gave Shamrock a run for his money. Also...when I see the Chinese come to Thailand, I will be at the stadium and if they can win in Thailand, then I will grant you some respect. Otherwise, the Chinese are very good at bending the rules to their needs and I remain unconvinced that the Chinese have very many good fighters.

Lkfmdc I am not trying to start an argument, as I have discovered it is preatty useless to argue with SS nazis. But regarding the event in Macau. I am pretty lucky that two of my fighters train in Ubon with Nuengtarkan. The money in Macau were good thats why Nuengtarkan bought himself a nice pick up. But as he said it was the only possitive thing about that event. I am not gonna go to any details but from what he said at least 4 of the chinese were suppose to loose and the rules and judging were just a laugh. If anyone else would say a thing like this maybe it would not matter as much but I know Nuengtarkan personally and he is very humble and honest person. Here we go again chinese wit against thai willingnes to fight anywhere under any rules.
Also you still did not give me those names of those russian champions - remmember.
You seem to forget names a lot.

I've seen quite a few Thai vs. Chinese events and almost without fail, the Chinese always seem to make their own rules ie; cheat. I'ts ridiculous but eventually they will be exposed.....

I have seen ALL of Ken Shamrocks fights in UFC. He lost to Royce Gracie, and he had no problems whatsoever with the SanShou guy. The Sanshou guy is named Felix Mitchell and he fought Shamrock in UFC 3. He lost in 4 minutes to Ken Shamrock by way of rear naked choke. Shamrock had a VERY easy fight. Felix only came in as a replacement in UFC. According to fight statistics, Felix has been fighting MMA for 7 years since then and has accumulated a very "impressive" record of 1 win and 6 losses.

How anyone can say Shamrock had a problem with this guy must either be out of pure ignorance or an awful bending of facts or most likely he NEVER saw the fight. If KFC's "analysis" of the macau fights are as "accurate" as his accounts of UFC and Shamrock, then I can only say that KFC's judgement and memory can NOT be trusted! What a joke!

No wonder KFC would not state the name. Felix Lee Mitchell? That's who you were talking about KFC? You think he gave Shamrock a hard time? Now I know you're smoking that NY city crack. Shamrock beat him like a dog and I dare say he didn't get hit once. What's next? You are going to tell me that a team of Chinese San shou fighters destroyed the elite of K-1, Pride and UFC? GET REAL!

Unlike some of you apparently, I don't have a life that allows me to instantly check a video collection to find an obscure name of someone that fought in an early UFC... I told you that I didn't remember the guy's name, I also told you

THE GUY WAS THIRD RATE

guess you forgot that part. His San Shou record before he fought was like 2-8 (that's 2 wins and 8 losses for those record inpaired). And it took Shamrock a long time to take him down (how long? I didn't run home to look at the tape unlike some of you, I can't say exactly) and Shamrock hurt his knee in the process

Rockhard, if you know so much how come you don't know that the Chinese fought in Thailand TWICE already. And won three of their bouts even with Thai judges preciding.

They fought on December 10, 2001 Thailand won 3 decisions and one KO win, lost 2 decisions. On December 5, 2001 Thailand won 2 decisions and 2 KO wins, China 1 decision win, Thailand's best effort in this series without a doubt. But of the 2 decision wins at least one was real close, in fact Muay Thai people I showed the tape to thought China won, but that's ok, it isn't the end of the world. Only seems to infuriate people like you

have a nice day

oh, and in case you didn't notice, in this last series, at 75 kg, the Chinese fighter's cross fractured the bone beneath the eye of the Thai fighter, but like you say, China doesn't have any power in it's techniques, must have been an accident

so far, in looking for names of fighters, this is all I found

but despite this major set back, I will continue to look

One of the main reasons why i think these events are poor is that there is an inherent conflict in the equipment used versus the style of fight. MMA fighters very quickly worked out that it is extremely difficult to grapple, stand up or on the floor, whilst wearing 10oz or 12oz gloves.

Try this for yourself and see if i am right - In the standup position once someone gets the hooks around the waist in preparation to throw the sheer dimensions of the gloves make it very difficult to prise the hooks apart. Couple this with sweat, linament, etc from the fighters and it becomes even more difficult. See how long it takes to pry the arms apart and how many failed attempts (with the glove slipping past and down your opponents arm) it takes - then see how long it took! Because of these gloves the thrower is allowed plenty of time to arch their back, set themselves

This is noticeable in the first round or two of almost every fight where the Chinese fighter is fresh and therefore has an extremely solid grip on the fighter - as the fights progress you see more and more that the grip is loose (coupled with poor shoots) and therefore the Thais are able to wriggle out of these throw attempts and regain there fight.

What i would like to see is a'la the Thai - Burma series where they fight in wraps (or stremlined MMA gloves)- bet you would see a completely different kind of fight where the poor time lag in shooting and throwing would be able to be punished more.

Hi I know I am jumping in pretty late, I'm not pretending to know alot about San-shou, it's another full contact art and it deserves respect.

But I noticed very similar characteristics to shootfighting. Can somebody give me the distinct differences in shootfighting/boxing compared to sanda/sanshou?

Also have any San-Shou prctitioners ever entered a full contact Kyokushin, Sabaki or Budoshin style tournament. I'm just thinking that in Sabaki rules you can grab and I think even throw this might be a good match up and a nice way to gage the pro's and cons of this particular style.

OSU
JAMESG

Just saw the site sanshou.org. It boasts of the fact that a series of fights between san shou and western boxers resulted in a san shou victory. Not surprising considering the san shou lot were allowed to use all techniques and the boxers were only allowed to punch. The site, however, also moans of the fact that the matches between kung fu/muay Thai fighters were unfair due to the rules being biassed towards MT. Pity it didn't carry this philosophy over to the matches between san shou and boxing.

Mr Ellis, the article on the San Shou vs Boxing event at Sanshou.org is in fact CRITICAL of many aspects of the event. Did you read it or just skim it? The other article states that in matches which are contested under Muay Thai rules with Muay Thai scoring and Muay Thai judges, the Muay Thai fighters have an advantage. Is that a huge leap for you? Sanshou.org has not been updated in over a year BTW so if you want up to the date views and such you should visit the unofficial King of San Da page at www.angelfire.com/sd2/kingofsanda

Piranha, did it occur to you that with little gloves it is also easier to get a grip to catch and throw?? It's a double edged sword certainly

Mr Ellis, the article on the San Shou vs Boxing event at Sanshou.org is in fact CRITICAL of many aspects of the event. Did you read it or just skim it? The other article states that in matches which are contested under Muay Thai rules with Muay Thai scoring and Muay Thai judges, the Muay Thai fighters have an advantage. Is that a huge leap for you? Sanshou.org has not been updated in over a year BTW so if you want up to the date views and such you should visit the unofficial King of San Da page at www.angelfire.com/sd2/kingofsanda

Piranha, did it occur to you that with little gloves it is also easier to get a grip to catch and throw?? It's a double edged sword certainly

JamesG, to answer your question, Cung Le has fought in the Shidokan Team Usa twice. first year hes lost in the semi's, and the next year he won the middleweight division.I was there live. Though Cung Le is not only San shou stylist. He has been san shou world champ many times, and is probably considered the best in america, and top in the world.

Cung Le is one of the US's top san shou fighters without question, but just for clarification, he "world titles" are ISKA world titles, not from the amateur World championships sponsored by the IWUF (which includes around 76 countries right now)

Most Kyokushinkai offshoot fighting systems do NOT allow throwing, and of course not face punching either, so it doesn't attract many san Shou people. However, one offshoot known as Daijukokai (sp?) is pretty much NHB and the Iranian San Shou team has fought in their nation's national Daijukokai event and won several times the whole tournament

When Kyokushinkai people have done San Shou fights, they have had good kicks and some have thrown a little, but their lack of boxing style defense makes them easy targets for hands

IKFMDC,


I had considered that streamlined gloves may benefit the thrower as well and this is my point - i think (i am not sure, only time would tell or serious research) that we would see better technique alround if these gloves were used. I am trying a bit of San Shou and find it bloody difficult to prise off the stronger guys with the 10oz (any tips?) but a lot easier with the MMA gloves. Now you have got me thinking i am going to pay attention to grip placement, etc for throws with MMA gloves - see if the difference is noticeable.


BTW the first fight in the Thai - Burma ends with a beautiful counter throw to a jumpimg low knee attack - result is a broken arm for the attacker.

If you plan to fight with something, practice with it, whether technique or equipment. Could you expect to fight with leg kicks in teh ring if you never trained them in the gym? Not likely :)

San Shou people learn to throw, counter, catch kicks, all that stuff with boxing gloves, we get very used to it. At the IWUF sponsored world championship you have real San Shou guys fighting eachother and the technique is cleaner and the fights better. IN teh US for example most of the time you have non San Shou people fighting San Shou trained people and it gets messy or you have a slaughter for the San Shou guy (since 1995 I can not think of a single match where a non "big 6" guy got beaten by someone outside of the san shou world in a san shou competition)

Generally speaking, we counter throwing attacks by forearm block, head push, shouldering, wizzer and sprawling

Personally, I'm a big fan of the wizzer technique.

Hey Dave (lkfmdc) I've emailed you a couple times over the past couple of weeks with no response. Please email me when you get the chance. Brian@Axkickboxing.com

Yes Kyokushin style tournaments do not allow head punching, it wouldn't be healthy to slam punches into eachothers heads with bare knuckles and no grappling or takedowns allowed. Not pretty.

But plenty of Kyokushin stylists compete and do well in competitions allowing head punches and grappling etc, some of the best kickboxers ever, even some up and coming boxers here in OZ have had a kyokushin backgrounds.

In Australia there was an annual full contact Kung Fu tournament that allowed head punches leg kicks and grappling, throwing and takedowns. (Adam Watt a K1 fighter from OZ once won it. He has a bckground in SeidoKaiKan, Kyokushin Offshoot. He has gone on to bigger and better things, he is a boxing champ aswel as a K1 Oceana champ now)
Would this have been considered a Sanshou tournament?

But just coming back to my main query, what was the difference between Sanshou/da and shootboxing?

And is Sanshou/Da a unique art to China, or is it an eclectic mix of modern day contact sports, given a Chinese name so it is much more easily marketed on a broader scale. And to make up for the lack of exposure Chinese arts have had on the full contact fighting cicuit.
What are the regulations governing san shou instructors, ie could a shootboxer open a gym and say he is teaching san shou.
Are there any Gyms that train Sanshou in Sydney Australia?

Hence the question what is truly unique to a Sanshou stylist over say a shootboxer or mixed martial artist. Is it the rules that govern the competition that sanshou stylists compete in? Is it the whole system and it's influence by wushu? Mind you Sanshou looks nothing at all in anyway to Wushu.

I am interested and look forward to your response.

OSU

Re

- "it wouldn't be healthy to slam punches into eachothers heads with bare knuckles" -

Well, to be honest, from a medical professionals point of view, nothing any of us do is all that "healthy", my parents are both doctors, they gasped and covered their eyes for many years and always gave me crap about what I do and dain bamage and such...

But, if you are gonna do a combat sport/martial art anyway, there is this niffty new invention called a BOXING GLOVE, Kyokushinkai could look into it. I hear the Thais discovered it like 100 years ago... yes, I am being funny

Chinese fighting has gone under a lot of names, and in many places still does. Essentially speaking, SPORT San Shou would mean the unified set of rules set up by the IWUF. If your event follows this format, even with some variation, we call it San Shou these days. But there are still other formats, including some of the old "Lei Tai" where it is bare knuckle and you can attack joints, more like a challenge match than a sport, and often bad sportsmanship leads to riots in these things. San Shou people consider themselves athletes, we try and be civil to eachother.

Shootboxing is a Japanese organization started by Ceasar's gym. It started as a combination of Muay Thai and wrestling with some Judo. The format is similar but the origins very different.

In Sna Shou competition, ANYONE can enter and fight, just like anyone could go to Thailand and fight under Muay Thai rules. But San Shou is a distinct lineage, has distinct strategy and tactics, distinct techniques. People who only have casual exposure may think it is like Muay Thai, those who see it up close see MANY differences. In San Shou competition, 99% of the time a "cross trained" guy who has done wrestling, boxing, Muay Thai etc combined will get trashed by a San Shou gym trained guy. "Cross training" leaves holes where there is transition from striking to grappling, San Shou since it is one system has very smooth transitions. In my part of the world at least, there is a lot of interest on the part of some MMA fighters to do San Shou because it is ideal stand up for a MMA event.

The Russian who won the San Shou amateur world championships in 1999 and who beat Cung Le is now fighting in RINGS in Japan, he is undefeated. His stand up is San Shou, his ground training Sambo/Cambo/Sombo. However, he usually wins because people have a lot of trouble taking him down and he strikes them well as they try and does lots of damage. I would expect more Russian and former Soviet San Shou fighters to take interest in MMA becuase now there is money in it. Ironicly, Brazil also has a strong San Shou team and those guys HAVE done a lot of MMA down there, two members of their national San Shou team KO'd two Gracie trained fighters in an event in 1999. Then they started a pro San Shou circuit from what I understand and the fighters have been doing that for good money

"Wushu" was and is an attempt to appropriate martial art for state use and make money off of it while also controlling any training of civilians in anything resembling fighting art. San Shou comes from within military.

Hi lkfmdc,

Thanks for the response,
I am very intersted in Sanshou as a system. Do you know of any gyms in Sydney Australia that are recognised. I look forward to your response.

OSU

I could look up the IWUF recognized organization in your country and you could contact them to see who trains their national San Shou team, I don't know anyone personally in that part of the world

According to the IWUF, this is the recognized body in Australia

Federation of Australian Kungfu Organizations
PO Box 134
Kenthurst NSW 2156
Australia

write them about where they get their san shou fighters and/or who trains them

http://www.wohsai.com/cnvsmuaythai/2002sept9.htm

Dave,
It was good to meet you in NY

David,
It was really nice to meet you as well, but didn't get to see your fight as I was warming people up. Always happens, miss a good show because of your own people! But it was a weird night from all accounts, though a good show, at least it RAN, though police and everyone yet again tried to stop it

Hope to see you again soon

take care

Sounds like I will be back in Feb hopefully I will get to see your gym!

Come on by for a hi, and if you need a gym to work out in while down here, we can talk about that too..

Vlad does a good show, didn't mean btw otherwise, just a strange night