Full Contact is going NO WHERE!!!

Ok lets be realistic about this folks,
now folks like JAG,SMILER, FAHAD, COLIN PAYNE,....etc may want to comment on this but lets be honest is full contact going anywhere?
I dont think so!!!

Lets examine the reasons why.
1. No money in it,... ive heard this time and time again and am sick of hearing this,....

2. What ever happend to the Kick count? dont ppl kick anymore? Is FC a boxing division or a kickboxing division?
where are the kicks?
where are the superkickers?

3. Promoters (not all of them but quite a lot of them, are)
not intersted in furthering the sport,...instead theyr more interested in (a) filling their pockets ,.. wqell hey we all have to make a living and we all want to make a profit,... but at least provide a good service if you are.
(b) looking after their own figthers and their own clubs at the expenese of the new clubs coming into the system which in the longrun stops these clubs from comign back to your shows
(c) bad matchmaking and decisions (see above)

4. Lack of big names in the sport.
What are the talent pool from full cotnact pool doing???
Well let me tell you!!!
(a) KO specialists ? = BOXING
(b) generally all round hard bastards = Thai boxing / K-1/K-1 MAX/ M.M.A
(c) good kickers and good skillful fighters ? = "light" continuous tournaments where there is more scope for competing internationally against a good standard of opponents.

5. Where is the heavyweight division? Who are the "big bruisers" in the sport?
Let me tell you :
Gary turner ??? K-1 or even MMA,.... Ray Hoffman = retired Stuart Green = ???
Wayne Turner= ??? , Simon dore = struggling to get fights , Alex Reid (crusier wieght i know)= MMA/thai boxing.

6. Lack of effort an investment to bring new blood into full contact and to promote them and help them find their feet in the sport by giving them the right kind of novice matches against novices,....yes thats right against NOVICES!!! not saying to them "oh youve been in a few touch contactkarate tournaments so you must fight someone with 4 fights at least" then go and slag them off if your 4 bouts full contact trained guy beats on this semi contact guy and then laff and say" i told you,... karate is crap" or " that club are all shit,.. im doing it right and theyre not" or even " ha ha ha semi contact puffs,... weve expoised these phoney black belts"
These martial arts ppl in my opinion are the future of Full contact , so give them a chance.

Why would anyone want to do full contact when they could do thai boxing? The decline of FC and the rise of MT are not unrelated. Although others may disagree, MT is the pinnacle of kickboxing and is what all kickboxers should aim at. FC is still a great sport but will always live in the shadow of MT.

i think that the main reason is lying under the fact ,namely:

full contact was an artificial discipline...it was created from the roots of tournament karate (usa)where the promoters of this segment had the aim to pull the interest of those people with some modifications suiting to this tournament environment(there should have been no loss in this market) ...fc had no experience like mt,savate ...there have ben lots of people playing in this tournament world and none of them had fought under a punishing environment like muay thai,bando or savate...adding some boxing to the speedy kicks would have been a sufficient,satisfactory modification for those tournament masters who wished to be pioneers also in this new system...
so, everybody can guess that artificial systems without long history and experience have two alternatives,namely: "to develop or dissapear (mostly).."
cheers,

If I had the choice of watching boxing or Full Contact....It would be boxing anyday.

If i had a choice between watching monkey tennis or full contact its would be mt everytime.

I watch paint dry to be honest before FC

it's gotta be the pants. seriously.

Farhad, just caught this, gonna come back on later and argue the case. (someone has to)

I will try and wait for you, but I might have to respond tomorrow :)

I did write about an A4 papers worth of stuff shouting the merits of FC when compared to MT but then noticed the thread really asks is it going anywhere. Well I answer back simply by saying where are any of the rules going?? Not anywhere far as I see it. Yes it's big in a small way (if that makes sense) but cross-over?? It ain't gonna happen until something big comes in organisation wise. TV?? Well the show in London will be on TV so that's OK, but it's on channel 5 at 1 in the morning when half the country will be in bed and the other half can't get channel 5! And of course according to reports the show on sunday was a pigs ear (organisation wise) so I'm sure that really impressed all those TV execs!!

Farhad, I have spoken to you before about promoters and you've been shafted before for sure but please don't tell me it's better in one above the other. We've all heard horror stories about promoters but one ain't better than the other.

Last point to Dave. I agree with you mate I prefer boxing as well! But then I'd rather watch top class boxing than any ring sport. The skill level of Leonard, Barrera, Hagler, Fenech, Nelson (Azumah not Johnny!)Duran, etc, etc has never been matched (or got anywhere near it) by any rules whether FC, MT or the MMA. So I'm with you Dave on that.(I know you only meant FC)

The sport (FC and MT) need proper organisation (and it ain't even close at the moment) before it goes anywhere.

1. whatever you do, rid of the mandatory kick rule.
2. Get rid of the clown shoes.
3. be just a little bit flexible.

Taking a free style bout occassionally
certainly isn't going to hurt a FC fighter.
Freestyle simply eliminates the
mandatory kicks and allows kicks to the upper legs.
(no below the knee stuff.)

people willing to fight under any set of rules
can fight often.

people who fight three different rules
also fight a lot.

people willing to fight under two different sets of rules,
fight twice as oftetn as fc fighters.

I dont like fc, because of the mandatory kick rule,
the clown shoes, which are a visual irritant,
(ditto the long pants) and last but not least,
the stubborness of fc fighters who
won't compromise one inch to get a fight.

dan


PS: It seems to me from what I have observed,
that fc fighters are quite often
more athletic than the others. So why are they
so damned reluctant to fight a free style, or
Int rules match?

dan what do you mean by 'I dont like fc, because of the mandatory kick rule'. is that you want them to have a 'kick-count' or not?. Just wondering.

I would rather watch a Full Contact fight over a boring, slow pace,holding, clinching, throwing down, Mt fight. Just my view. Take away a mt fighter low kick, and knees, and he stands no chance of beating a full contact fighter. Proven many times over in the ring.................

Jag
Thats like saying take a boxers hook & jabs away and Karate would beat them.

Its a dying sport its silly boys tigs.

There is something wrong with a combat sport when its is nessasary to place a rule to use a certain weapon.

The weapon is either dangerous to throw, they competators don't know how to throw it, or its not very effective compared with other weapons(include limiting boxers in this).

If theres any other reasons you can think of for starting a rule like this then please let me know.

If you can win with hands go for it...

Check out my thread Simon Dore vs Chris Ballard!!

Im not a FC fighter or really a lover of it, but Im so looking forward to this fight!!

Ha!

Any time Chrissie Ballard fights its gonna be a fire cracker!!!

"YOU can't handle me! HE can't handle me! I can't handle me! NO-ONE can handle me!!!!!!" Chris after his last fight!!

Its true - full contact seems to be dropping off, but there are still class fighters out there!!

Also, WAKO rules state you must impact with the foot, not the shin - therefore the feetpads are definately necessary.

Full contact provides a welcome cross over between the arts - multiple kicking is rarely seen in low kick competitions - no-one wants to hit the canvass after their legs are kicked from under them...and not everyone is willing to get hit in the legs with the force of a baseball bat!

Full contact has its place, as does low kick, MT.....

But I blame K1 for bringing low kicks even more into mainstream.

Smiler

Also Wayne?

He's retired, but still training hard - tried his hand at triathlons, now pursuing a career as a discus thrower!!

He's doing really well too - you never know, he may be carving out yet another top level career!

And don't forget Simon Dore - sooooo relaxed a full contact fighter!

Smiler

well said Smiler.

No chance at all Jag?

I do think that all this talk of FC against MT doesn't do us any favours. Broadly speaking 'our sport is Muay thai/Kickboxing/full contact. By sticking together and working together the whole thing has more chance of getting somewhere, and of course a lot of shows have fights under all three rules on their show. It's no wonder the MMA people have established themselves in a much shorter time as they do generally seem to pull together.

Anyway, just something to think about

Farhad, for the same reason (difficulty of finding good heavies) we postponed an event scheduled in Aug this year for Nov. If a good heavy fc fighter is interested to come here WAKO-Ro will do the best to insure fair conditions and a gentleman's show. As far as we see it we will try to build an 8-man tournament plus or minus some wildcards in the event of a forfeit or last-minute withdrawal, local top contender being the WAKO fc bronze world medalist 2001 and European silver medalist 2002.

Up to now decision is not firm among my mates, but I together with some others advocate to join the fc event to a symilar legkick rules one. If someone is interested pls contact me.

fc doesn't have any appereance for a tough ring discipline...it might have affected some people in the west for a period while(with the help of finance ,of course) with colourful foot protections , long satin trousers ,spin kicks etc...but,realistic people never considered this as a realistic ring system...even, at the birth times of fc there was a confusion between kyokushin people who were claiming that kyokushin is much more full contact form than fc(american boxing)...
(personaly, i had and still have the same impression and belief that kyokushin, ashihara is much more a full contact system than american boxing ...of course, this is my belief and there are lots of points which support this belief...)

Full Contact is a tough sport!!!
You can get KO'd in FC in KB or MT or even normal Boxing,... so whats the big
deal with my game is harder than yours,.. absolute crap!!!
another thing ,.....
1.kickboots,.. why do you call them clown shoes? you punch with boxing gloves on,.... also dont you wear shoes in the street? you expect me to take my trainers off to give someone a kicking in the street? i dont think so!
the kickers are boxing gloves for your feet coz when youre always kicking above the waist ,.. you land with your feet a lot, hence the boots make sense

2. kick count = is a good thing if ppl would stick to it but judges and refs shud enforce it or else FC then gets reduced to being "boxing for ppl who cant punch so good"

3. long satin pants are the bottom half of the karate/kung fu/taekwondo uniform becoz the karate/kung fu / TKD tournament guys wanted to keep fighting in MA tourneys,.. but wanted to ight with KO and face punches so it evolved to using gloves and a ring,... and which art uses gloves and a ring??? BOXING!!!!
so if you wanna be good at this new karate style that allows KO,... and they punch to the face,.. with boxing gloves in a ring??? you learn BOXING!!!

Now who is FC for ? who was it invented for? it was invented for thje karate/kung fu / TKD guys to "go for it " in ,... but whats happened?
the same guys who its invented for are being told by promoters " youre style is too tippy tappy for FC" and when they do cross over,.. they are either stitched up just to humiliate them(overmatched) and their martial arts,.. or they get robbed by the judges and hence they dont come back,... result?
the karate/TKD guys think "fuck this im not coming back to this bullshit" which is what did happen at a WKA show in chesterfield,..... where a TKD club who were CLEARLY technically superior,... and CLEARLY tough enuff,... were (a) overmatched ,.... YES im sorry guys but 1 LOSS does not warrant a fight against an area title holder with 6/7 fights or (b) when they clearly won the fight had the decision turned the other way!!! that was the last straw for their sensei who now thinks that kickboxing is bollocks,... and their titles are given to the promoters mates,.. and that its a big farcical "old pals club" ,....

now NO WAY am i rubbishing FC coz i love it!!! i spar with kickboots,.. and i have more pairs of satin pants than i have thai shorts!!! and i love throwing high kicks,.. hell what am i saying i have even COMPETED in FC!!!

The point im trying to make,....

HELLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
DONT YOU GET IT YET????

Light continuous guys stepping up,....Taekwondo stylists,... traditional karate guys who play about wiht a bitof boxing,..etc
THESE ppl are the future of full contact,.. these ppl can SAVE FC,... you carry on shafting these guys.. they wont come back and FC will die a death!!!

sorry for the rant and raving,.... i feel very strongly about this
we can save what could be a very good spectator sport but is instead a dying sport with little or no respect.

ok heres proof that FC is buggered,...
i witnessed a WKA commonwealth title recently,..
now the WKA is one of the largest organisations in the world right???
WKA = WOLRD kb assocaition right?
so that mneans that if someoen holds a WKA common wealth title theyre the best in the comonwelath right?

well i saw the commonwealth title at superheavyweight,....
there was this ginger skinhead who was BIG,... like 6'4" or more,... and he was 45 yrs old i hear,... ok all credit to him for fighting at 45,...
he was up against this scouser guy who looked hard as nails,... who was cut up to the max,...ususal skinhead haircut,... etc
he was actually over 35 himself( ha ha colin there goes your theory about old age ,.. ha ha ha LOL,.. just kidding mate,.. dont get mad at me)
The 35 yr old scouse won ,.. even tho he was smaller than me (and im even smaller than SMILER!!!,... well only by 1/2 a CM,... LOL!!!)

But i had 2 of my students with me,....they are both heavyweights,.. and i said to them "this is what youre aspiring to" (being heavyweights and all that,... )
and guess what they replied with?
well they said "what? are they like top level or soemthing?"
at the end of round 5 the MC said "get behind the figthers this is the WKA title,..etc"
one pissed up punk blurts out " i thought it was a demonstration"
I asked one of my big lads "what do you think,..? " he said " hmmm i preferred the guys who were your weight to be honest" and those guys were like guys whove had 3/4/5/6 bouts,...

ok dont get me wrong id NEVER rubbish anyone who does 10 rounders,...
3 roudners are hard enuff,.. so leave 10 rounders to ppl who have the time to train for them.
but you draw yoour own conclusion as to where the sport is going by the kind of quality you get for a commonwealth belt for 10 rounds,.. in one of the big titles,....

heres another example,... i was offered a commonwealth titel for one of my lads who has a record of like :
2 wins and 6 losses or soemthing

The problem with FC is the same problem that has hampered it since the begining of it's inception and that is "Mandatory Kicking".

Whenever you have fighters being forced to kick unaturaly just to complete a mandatory requirement in one round,you end up with fighters kicking just to get the kicks in,with no real purpose or strategy.


The ugliest thing to ever have to watch is fighters throwing kicks with no real purpose or intent other than to get kicks in,once the genenral public understood this lack of general flow & transition among fights and fighters just for the sole purpose of kick requirement,it spelled doomsday for FC,Why not just box instead.

kicking down stairs is the big equalizer that makes kicking in a match a very important aspect of the equation and prevents it from just becoming a boxing match.Fighters due not kick unaturaly in MT or FS but instead with a continuos flow that makes the match seem more natural by making the opponent have to worry about the low kick while opening up the head kick. I really believe MT & FS probably has more head kick KO's in the long run,something FC always wanted to promote.

Hector

I am not an fc coach although I anecdotically coached for fc so I can't pretend I am "the" specialist but I think I still can make some remarks :

Problem about kicking sloppy and only because of rules comes from guys still intoxicated by the idea that fc is boxing plus karate kicks - which is true only for low-profile amateurs.

If one boxes in fc classic boxing-wise he can be very close to the truth as differences in the technique itself are not very large but he will still have serious problems with good kickers.

Concept of using reach advantage to lead fight is essential as well as to pass well over the reach disadvantage using good kick counters against a boxer and these 2 things make much of the salt and pepper of fc.

In an international bout that I saw highlights from only 2 in 11 final matches were won by competitors with reach disadvantage common rule being that poor kickers were unable to kick because of tactic missunderstanding that you don't open with a mid/highkick against a guy with longer reach and do this systematically. But this is not rocket science to understand.

Fc can exploit many ways of breaking a guys reach, launch punches and finalize with kicks which is sooo scarcely seen because on one hand many guys come from styles where absurd kicking is the rule and on the other many are boxers who don't understand that boxing like in classic boxing on one hand ruins one's balance in respect to ability to throw kicks at the end of a punch serie and on the other moving only your upper body against a kicker to dodge whatever when your strenght is boxing will allow the kicker to teep and chop your midsection with roundkicks. Let alone superior concepts as breaking rhythm not only punch-wise but also kick-wise, adjust distance to kick within a punch serie etc.

So it happens with fc same thing as with all misunderstood ring sports when the innitial enthusiasm was driven away by a more "rough" discipline. Idea of martial profficiency of more permissive ring sports is "the" watering down of all sports. Do you honestly give a serious chance to a 60 kilos MT trainee against a 95 kilos boxer ? Whereas maybe a good grappler would still stand a chance to shoot at him ... Does this make MT a less legitimate sport than say BJJ ? Do you honestly give a chance to a kyokushin karateka to deal with an fc fighter street-wise if the fc guy is 30 kilos heavier and has a reach advantage of 5 inches IF the karateka is rounded only in the knockdown side of kyokushin and not in the self-defense side ? (I am coming from kyokushin and my memories of having my head punched bad before I could use legkicks against an fc fighter with strong boxing are very fresh).

I think that actually fc was buried by its own bad promoters who lacked the experience of older ring sports and looked very much like not knowing anything about good promotion at all, which of course drove people to more exciting stuff. It is also burried as it was said by lack of excellence of fighters who can't find neither good coaches nor good opportunities and this is already a vicious circle. Yet I wouldn't say anything about future. Let's admit that Marquis of Queensbury would have made rules allowing above belt kicks - would you bet that the last match of Lennox couldn't be something like "KO rnd 7 by midkick" and an obscure discipline allowing only punches invented 30 years ago wouldn't have been legitimately looked at as "watered down fc" ? (just half-kidding)

>There is something wrong with a combat sport when its is nessasary to place a >rule to use a certain weapon.

Mark, isn't MT in many respects limiting use of some weapons ? At least in the most controversial part of throws allowance, it does. In my place in MT organizations you are also forbidden to use shoulder strikes in clinch or grasp below shoulders to handle a clinch. You can't use forearm to do a spinning backfist etc.

And by the way - tkd was mentioned ... damn, is tkd so popular and an olympic sport because it is sooo effective and logic ring-wise ... it's already a very very very rhetoric question ...

Also, WAKO rules state you must impact with the foot, not the shin - therefore the feetpads are definately necessary
-----------------------------------------------------------------
didn;t know about the wako rules. Maybe the impact with
the foot rule is unecessary. That's emblematic of why some (but not all)
just can't appreciate full contact. The rule mananting so
many above the waist kicks per round-under penalty of lost points.
the clown shoes, made necessary by the equally silly
no shins wako rule. (Shins hurt too much:wah wah!

I agree with Mark, there must be something pretty anemic
and ineffective about the footsy kicks above the waist-if you have
to force fighters to throw a minimum number by imposing
a point penalty if they do not.

What that communicate is: we don;t want some boxer coming in here
and beating us at our own game, using only his fists. Its just too damned
embarrassing.

Back in the early 70s when I started FC (after TKD) I remember the
marginal mediocre boxers entering our PKA and SEKA tournaments and ko'ing *us*, and not throwing a single kick.soon, we f got the mimunum kick rule. first six kicks. The boxers would throw six quick anmeoic kicks then
proceed to whoop ass.
So, it became six SINCERE kicks. (Meaning a really hard kick)
still the boxers were winning too often.
Then it got be 8 kicks minimum. That finally disourgaed
most of the boxers.

we also hada similar problem wuth collge wreslters entring the AAU Judi tournaments, tackling the JUdoka, and hldig them for 30 second and scotirng the IIPON. Blackbelst being routinely pinned by a muscled up KId with a whte belt was equlayy mortifying.

I probablt shouldnt say this, but I finally stopped that by kneeing a
muscled up wreslter in the face when he came into tackle me,
(without first trying a legitimate standing technique. (ie, a throw) .

Now Judoka everywhere will "accidently" lift their knees when some
undercover wreslter tries to tackle them and pin them without ever
using any judo technique.

Too bad FC fighters with their huge variety of fancy kicks, back fists,
and etc, dont feel they can cope with boxers without forcing them to
throw eight heartfelt kicks per round.

Like Mark said, something is implicitly wrong with the technique if you
have to force someone to use it.

If eight above the waist kicks per round were effective, you wouldnt have to
coerce anyone to throw them.

I know all sports have rules. Buyt if the rules emascualte the game, the game suffers.

dan



dan

Colin Payne writes:

I do think that all this talk of FC against MT doesn't do us any favours. Broadly speaking 'our sport is Muay thai/Kickboxing/full contact. By sticking together and working together the whole thing has more chance of getting somewhere, and of course a lot of shows have fights under all three rules on their show. It's no wonder the MMA people have established themselves in a much shorter time as they do generally seem to pull together.

Anyway, just something to think about
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Colin, That is very true!

I wish I could shut up. and keep my opinion to myslef on this topic.

But The thing that gripes me (other than the footsie gear, the foot impact rule, and the kickcount) is that
FC people won't compromise. I know kickboxers who will gladly take fc bouts,
I even know a few Thai fighters who will take a fc bout just
to stay busy. (dont worry i won't "out" anybody. hehe.
But, a fc fighter will go on a hunger strike, or submit to a colonoscopy
before they take a free style fight.|
(kicks to the thighs and no kickcount)


I also believe the FC folks are totally cluless as
to the effect the kick count and the gear have
on lay person/spectators-
who just dont understand it.

I talked to Lane Collyer, about this.
He promotes fights, and he fought Full contact, but he
tries to get as many of his fight cards k-1 (OR rules)
because he found that crowds vastly
prefer it, and respond most enthusiastically to it.

I wilalso say love MT, but the high priesthood of MT
can sometimes be an insufferable bunch.

dan.


PS: maybe this divisive topic should be placed on
the censors shit list alongside war and
religion. we all feel too strongly about it-and it
is all about personal taste anyhow. less filling/tastes great
type argument.It always seem to evoke a heated argument.
Even without Goof here to inject fellatio into the conversation.

The rule stating to kick with the leg and not with the shin is not enforced in my place, nor do I see it in the WAKO international rules. They state something only about one not being allowed to strike with the heel in ax- and hook kicks. All the fighters I know from here who attend international WAKO bouts are kicking with the shin and none has received even a warning as far as I know.

Full contact is dying for a good reason as many of the above has already state. I can see in the future of kickboxing, it's only going to be muay thai rules. Why have some many other rules if you can just have 1 LEGIT rules of fighting. Common sense for example: if someone that just turned on the TV and watches ESPN2 and sees full contact, they'll think kickboxing in general stinks. I mean come on, the flashy power ranger wannabe kicks, funky looking clown shoes, long pants, silly kicks requirements, etc. Now that will make kickboxing in general a joke. Now if that someone just turned on the TV and saw muay thai, Wow! I bet that same person will say, "wow!! this is awesome!!!, check out the leg kicks, knee and elbow strikes, realistic all around weapon from the fighters... this sport is the SHIZZLE!!!"
I'm not sure when but I can bet later on, there will only be one kickboxing style and that will be muay thai.

'I mean come on, the flashy power ranger wannabe kicks'

Well I will say this. When you go to a show under any rules (including MMA). The one thing guaranteed to get a crowd on its feet and cheering is a kick to the head.

Colin

Yes a roundhouse shin kick not a Gladiators flicky s**t kick there pants.

If FC was so could they would fight MT open Rules not the MT fighter having to fight FC rules everytime.

Its a spent sport i can understand why you are p****d off spending half your life on something thats a dying sport.

I bet all FC fighters drive Sinclair C5s lol.oh and put your pension money with Robbie Maxwell.

A dying sport??? My gym is full, my shows are full and I have people constantly contacting me to put their fighters on my events. Speak to Jag, Bulldog (he does a lot of FC) and lots of others and they will tell you the same thing I'm sure.

Didn't see any C5's in the car park at last show!!!!

Oh, as for the kick. I want to see a good roundhouse kick too but want to see side kicks, back kicks, jump kicks, axe kicks, etc, etc, as well. All to be seen in a good FC fight.

Colin

Yehhhhhhhhhhhhhhh seen Pele Reid do em on the K1 and get his ass kicked everytime.

20,000ppl in Paris all booing it done finished Colin.

Him getting beat doesn't prove anything. Remember it's a sport of entertainment as well.

Got work to do, so let's agree to disagree!!

Hold on - some of you are missing the point...

It is very hard for a full contact fighter to switch to leg kicks. Their stance is wrong, they train to impact with the foot not the shin, they don't condition for it....the list goes on.

ITS A DIFFERENT SPORT!

With time, and training, they can adjust to leg kicks....but it needs practice and adjustment.

Equally though, I know of many Thai boxers who've come unstuck when they tried full contact. Why? Cause they were too square, couldn't use half of their techniques.....'cause ITS A DIFFERENT SPORT!

And the crowd - how about this - a crowd of non training people falls asleep watching two fighters in a Thai match continually grapple, no matter how technical the fight actually is...

And as for force of kicks? I've a student who doesn't fight, Andre, who has a serriously hard chamber kick - like lighting, accurate, and bl**dy hurts!! And check out the immortal Buster Reeves (currently staying at Brad Pitt's house in LA - doing his stunts on 'Helen of Troy') his kicking is just amazing - dare I say it - better than Superfoots!!

Anyway - K1 is the future!!! Lol!

And remember, I've fought in two WAKO European championships at Heavyweight full contact - silver in one, gold in the other; two WAKO World Championships - quarter finals in one, gold in the other, picked up the WAKO Heavyweight European Full Contact Title, lost on points for the WAKO World.....and I don't drive a C5!! OK, I drive a Rover 75, so its just as bad....old man' car!!!

To reiterate - they are all different sports - train for one, and the other suffers, but all have their place, and all have their merits. At the end of the day we need to stick together and PROMOTE ALL OUR SPORTS!

DAMN, I'VE FALLEN FOUL OF SANDY'S CAPS!!! LOL!!

Smiler

'ITS A DIFFERENT SPORT'

It's what I've been saying, it's rugby league against rugby union, it's different, agree 100%

I must say that i agree with Colin My gym has got busier and busier over the year not less and less, I can Boast that i have over 1300 member's and that my shows are sold out every time any one who ever been to one of my show can tell you that, so really don't under stand why some people think this sport is coming to a end.

And Smiler i agree with your statment, we need to all work together, because one day we will need each other support.

farhad,

ok, i understand your feelings,ideas well...may be also that i have exchagerated the subject a bit...when i told that fc is not tough ,it was compared with mt and kb...the simplest proof is the difference between recuparation, recovary times of styles...after a challenging fc fight a couple of days may be ok, but after an mt fight you need at least 5-6 days to walk properly...

i understand you well since we had also those complicts during late 1980's...fc was born in the usa and offered to the world through media, magazines a lot...we have been also influenced a lot and tried for a while this discipline,as well...however,we have been lucky and had the influences from holland (via turkish fighters) and could make the comparison well even at that times ...of course, at that times there was a confusion even in holland ...modified mt was announced as kickboxing (this is another story) ...you are lucky since today the seperation lines between disciplines are well described...however, at that time we could be sensitive only with our own experiences,orientations ..by the way, as you would easily see the former fc organizations converted their names to "kickboxing" and nowadays most of them has taken "mt " under their umbrella and the next step would be easily that they convert their names to "mt organizations"!..(of course, it is not easy and seems to be impossible...) why did they behave so?: simple :" 90% of people who trained for a while mt will stay in this dscipline and forget the former one...the magic behind is also simple :" satisfaction!.."

cheers,

hence,

True we need to work together,.. but as a professional sport,its still well behind K-1 and even MT!!! lets be honest,.. colin & jag,.. what kind of purses do you guys pay for a 10 roudner? yeah i mean purses,.. not based on ticket commission,... i know for a fact that MT figthers doing 5x3,.... at say 63-67 kg are getting a GRAND yes a GRAND for a fight!!! not a measly £350 for a common wealth title,... oh commonwealth? Breadford Vs Worcester??? yeah thats the two main parts of the british commonwealth isnt it
LOL!!!

the first thign would be to STOP giving titles away like birthday presents.

But all thats besides the point,....
what im saying is we need to encourage the good kickers,.. the technicians to be taking part in FC,... not stitcxhing them up,.. or putting them down or mismatching them or ripping them off with judging etc,....
where are the good kickers going to come from?

ANSWERS: 1. taekwondo,.... 2. Lau gar,... 3. the light continuous open circuit,... give those guys a chance and youll see these guys get better and better and the sport goes forward
but promoters have no interest in promoting these guys,.. naaah use them as cannon fodder and then say "semi contact/light copntact /TKD guys are puffs,..."
right???

Full Contact is just a watered down version of kickoxing because back in the days, when American fighters fought the Thai guys, they got the crap kicked out of them. So after that, American invented full contact so they don't have to face the Thais with their own watered down rules. I can pick out over 30 people that don't know jack about kickboxing would say muay thai is the most exciting stand up fight sport and I'm sure those same people would say full contact is BORRRINNNGGGGG

I wish I was getting those purses!!

I think they're a bit inflated - a good guide for full contact in Britain would be 100-400 depending on experience and ticket saleability (is that a word?), maybe going up for those 'special' cases....

Full contact is not watered down kickboxing - it is kickboxing! So is low kick. So is Muay Thai, so is K1...its a generic term...the quality of the fight depends on the quality of the fighters, and luck, as do all fights.

Smiler

Gary, the grand purse was for MT figthers,.. i.e. thai boxers,.. ask zebedee if you wonder who im on about,... the £350 was for a (10x2) commonwelath title.
These days commonwealth title seems to be a hyped up version of a britsh title in my opinnion in a lot of cases.

FC is an exciting sport ,... its also a hard sport,.. how many ppl can land 8 hard kicks per round above belt??? it takes skill to be able to land a side kick to the face or a hook kick or spinning heel kick
there are Fc specialists who can KO ppl with spinning heel kicks e.g. neil kelly from birmingham. There are other FC specialist who have good kicks and use the full range,.. examples: Harvery Harra(who is npow a copper), Fran Zuccala ( who is now concnetrating on his full time academy), Neil kelly is temporarily reitred,.... but as it is he is THE BEST 81kg fighter in the UK,... i dont know any FC figther at 81kg who can stand their ground with neil kelly without being kciked to shit LITERALLY or being demoralised by his powerful legs.

The point im trying to make is that its dying coz the potential is often killed off before they can shine,.. ppl given title shots after 1 or 2 fights??? whats that all about? anyone want any examples ill be glad to give them.
Titles defended against opposition with more losses than wins (KO specialists or good foigthers need not apply!!!,.. LOL)
FC figthers need to be "NURTURED" first which is what ppl arent doing.
whats the answer people?

Farhad, the grand for the fight I would still say is the exception rather than the rule.

'commonwealth title seems to be a hyped up version of a britsh title in my opinnion in a lot of cases' very true, but not just in FC but all rules.

Neil Kelly is a good fighter, but there is Chris Wootten down here with 42 wins in 44 fights. Would be a very good match for kelly.

Yeah - there's a point that bugs me!

I won the WAKO World Full Contact Title in the World Championships in Poland, 1998. Out of 72 member countries, about 50 were in attendance. Over 4 days I had 5 fights and won through. I consider that I earnt the right to call myslef a kickboxing world champion.

I've now fought in over 20 countries.

How many UK fighters have ever fought abroad? Of those that haven't, I bet there are a few that claim to have a World Title...often of a one country membership, or just a few local clubs...therefore devaluing my title.

Its not fair to the legitamate champions, in my mind.

I don't know how well this came accross, but I think you get the idea.

Regards,

Smiler

I think Full Contact can be a great middle ground for fighters.

Last year we had Gurkan Ozkan Vs Adam Watt in a FC rules fight.
Under normal kickboxing rules Adam surely would have had the advantage, but in this case we got to see a fight which may never have happened under regular kickboxing rules. So, I dig it.

I'd prefer watching evenly matched K1 rules events, but FC is fine if we cant have the prior.

I still prefer it to boxing.

Oh, I agree about the minimum kick rule. That's stupid I reckon. Also, the boots are annoying, but Watt and Ozkan didn't wear them.

I agree, Paul. get rid of the minumum kick
rule, and the clown shoes,
and you got a really good sport that alnost everyone
would support.

dan

I agree. Go with the flow and fight with muay thai rules only and no other weirdo rules. I'm tired of explaining to friends that don't know about kickboxing asking me, " what's allowed in this fight? what's allowed in that fight? what are the rules.. etc " Get rid of the funky toy shoes, stupid minimum kicks rules, the funky looking long pants, and just fight like everyone else fights and wants to watch. Are the full contact people afraid to face muay thai guys so that's why they watered down the sport with weird nonsense rules? hm... guess so. My 2 cent.

Colin ill tell neil kelly about chris wooton,.... im a good pal of neils.
hey did you know,.. neil has been a muslim for like nearly a year,.. funnily enuff

Hi Farhad, been in touch myself with Neil in the past, is he still looking after Phil Richards??

Neil and Chris would make a great fight.

I agree. Go with the flow and fight with muay thai rules only and no other weirdo rules. I'm tired of explaining to friends that don't know about kickboxing asking me, " what's allowed in this fight? what's allowed in that fight? what are the rules.. etc " Get rid of the funky toy shoes, stupid minimum kicks rules, the funky looking long pants, and just fight like everyone else fights and wants to watch. Are the full contact people afraid to face muay thai guys so that's why they watered down the sport with weird nonsense rules? hm... guess so. My 2 cent.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I hear you. Muay Thai is my favorite too. But,
there will never be just one set of rules. And some of the hardcore
thai people are frankly snobs. They resent being "lumped with |
kickboxing, and they want to be separate and above their KB brethen who
they disown. A royal priesthood they fancy themsleves.

I really think K-1 rule are the best for promters who want to bring in
lots of spectitrs. Not just the friends and families of the fighters.
People don't undertand the FC costume-or the Thai clinching either.
That wehre K-1 beats them asa spectotr friendly sport.

Most everyone understands boxing, because the rules are simple-even with the restriced target zones and lack of weapons. (fists only)
can you imagine if they put in a minimum uppercut rule for boxing? and had
an uppercut count?


SO: we all need to make sure we learn from boxing:

1.encourage punching. People understand punching. Minimum kick rules discourage, and minimize punching.

2. wear shorts like boxers. Not satin pants. this aint the 70's
FC fighter know the rules-they aren't so stupid they need long pants to
remember they can't leg kick under fc rules.And spectatotors are used to seeing fighters fight in shorts.

3. clown shoes are just so damned conspicuous and Bozo looking, it's the
first thing the average Joe notices. It makes the fighter appear too|
"armored" Like fencing. (which definitely isn't very spectator
friendly what with the headgear, etc.

consider, the only sports that can sell lots of tickets with armored participants are TEAM sports, (hockey football) where the face
of an indvidual participant is less a matter of curiosty,
than a one on one sport.

If the FC nabobs would do that, most kickboxing enthusiasts would
energetically support FC. (at least I Know I would)

Dan

PS: Muay Thai needs to be more practical also.
(see the old thread: is Muay Thai too Thai?)

What a GOOD post dan ! top one ! cheers !

Even Taekwon-do & kyokushin karate(neither ring sports) do not wear bootys and they do encourage kick Ko'S with barefeet.


Those SnowBoots got to go!!!!!!


Hector

http://64.4.10.250/cgi-bin/linkrd?_lang=EN&lah=1deeb68aeacbafba4892add8ec7cc3fc&lat=1056672706&hm___action=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2ebadbreed%2etv%2fwebvideos%2fROF_BobbyCampbellvsGeorgeBustimonte6%2ewmv

LOL @ the MoonBoots as i / we call em here sometimes!

I dont know if it snobbish or not..........I just think that from a marketing standpoint, it is not likely that FC will ever take off again. Especially with MMA having exploded as it has the last ten years. People know more about fighting now thanks to the likes of the UFC.

Also from a marketing standpoint it is hard to build up names, when there are so few and then only to have them never able to face each other due to different sports.

So if we look at it from the standpoint of different sports, then we are all competing to get our sport the air time and recognition we each beleive they deserve.

Does that make sense?

Makes sense to me.

The sport is fighting against itself.

Or the "sports" of kickboxing are fighting against themselves.

My sport is way better than yours. nah, nah, nah, nah, nah...

Mr. t.v. guy put this on t.v.!!

No, no, no Mr. t.v. guy, put this on t.v. ...... it's way better! Yeah, all my friends say it is!!! None of my friends like that stuff over there!

Is this kind of what you are saying? But then you want your muay thai to get recognition and t.v. and all that, right? But why? If UFC is the ultimate way of fighting then why should anyone watch any kickboxing sport?? I mean none of them have groundfighting therefore they are not realistic at all. Right? Whether you wear little booties or not ya ain't groundfighting so therefore why should I watch any of this stupid kickboxing stuff?

Well I guess now that I think about it... it makes sense but then it does NOT make sense.

Why would the masses of people watch boxing if UFC is having such an effect on the masses??

Boxing is popular and gonna stay that way whether you like it or not. So why not full contact as it was in the 80's?

No, no!!! Muay thai is way better! No, no, no!! San Shou is way better! We throw each other around! No, no, no....

ha ha ha ha.

I guess my point is that Muay hai got a huge life from the development of the UFC. Most of the guys are crossed trained in some sort of grappling and then Muay Thai.

Also I think the crossover between MMA and K-1 and Muay Thai is regards to PPV is very high.

Not as high as boxing to either.

Not sure though. It would be an interesting survey to see how many boxing PPV buyers but UFC.

I try to watch them all but I try not to actually purchase them very often so I might skew the stats a bit. I have some friends who have some kind of special deals with the cable companies. For some reasons they get ALL this stuff for really cheap and then they tape it and let me watch it. I don't ask too many questions, I just watch the tapes.

I don't see much of any kickboxing or muay thai on t.v or pay per view. I understand what you are saying that the word "muay thai" and maybe some understanding of what the sport is is now out there cuz of mma but I still don't see any of it on t.v.

K-1 can thank some of its popularity to mma? Not sure about that. Might be true.

K-1 can thank some of its popularity to mma? Not sure about that. Might be true.
---------------------------------------------------------------
K=1 took the best of all styles but removed the worst:
the clown shoes, mandatory kicks of fc and excessive clinching
in Thai.

So now you got boxing punches, IR low kicks, FC style high kicks,
and MT knees (but no prolonged clinching.)

Thus, It is very spectator friendly.
and no confusing mandatory kick counts,
strange (to most people) apparel, etc

Thats why Duke Roufus has such a good thing going with the heavyweight
gladiatiors. Its a great recipe for drawing a good crowd.

If I were promoting, I would do most of my bouts under K-1 Oriental rules.
and, maybe one MT and one IR bout. I love thai,
and really enjoy a good Wai Kru. But, you got to sell tickets.
Lots of them.

Legkick: telling people you got all those tapes is like buying a truck.
suddenly you got all these friends you never knew you had.

dan




dan




I like MMA being a judo player. But lets facee it, most people
nod off when some guy is trying to
mount someone to sink a choke, or tryning to staighten out an
arm to bar..

The kick count rule is there to ensure the kicks are thrown, and not because of boxers, but because of the crowd. A good kickboxer, Thai boxer, k1 fighter etc will do the mandatory 8 kicks without thinking - its usually the less experienced that just throw the kicks...

And the moon boots? As you have to kick with the feet in WAKO, I wouldn't have been able to fight, as my feet are weak, without the moon boots - and I still have recurring fractures to my feet when I get kicks wrong now...

Also, as I'm from a Judo background myself (1st Dan, competed in British Open 1987, British Schools Team 1987, started 1976 stopped 1991) even I find Judo boring to watch!! But love to do it.....

Smiler

i agree with smiler on two counts :
1. the WAKO amateur worlds are much harder to win than 90% of any world titles,.. a lot of title fights are "set up"
if you are a WAKO AM world champion ,. you ARE a bloody world champion!!!
2. kickboots,... nothign wrong with them,.. they suit the FC style of fighting,.. without the boots,... FC would be a bit wierd

"K1 took the best of all styles but removed the worst."

No I don't agree. I think K1 just has the most money and exposure.

I do enjoy k1 but I've said in the past that if k1 promoted full contact then that would be where all the best talent would go. The talent is gonna go where the glory and the money is.

So you got two choices these days for stand up fighting - either boxing or K1. Some guys try to do both, but jack of all trades is usually master of none so it's hard to truly excel at both sports.

paul ,

i think what gurkan özkan has fought is "kickboxing" not fc...if they are not wearing boots, shorts it means kb...and i think that there were low kicks ,as well...

was it so ?...

cheers,

paul ,

i think what gurkan özkan has fought is "kickboxing" not fc...if they are not wearing boots, shorts it means kb...and i think that there were low kicks ,as well...

was it so ?...

cheers,

ok,

another statement to the subject:

- a champ in mt can be easily prepared to fight in fc with a preparation of 1.5- 2 months prior and they can get some success also ...at least they can fullfil 12 rounds and some could get success ,as well...(like ballentino,colak,kaman,belloni,yamali etc)

-a champ in fc can never be successful in mt with a 2-3 months preparing...(even, branco cicatic who switched from fc to mt had a long period to adapt...)some need more than 1 year ,some need still a very very indefinite pattern in front ...(like roufus)

cheers,

i agree with ercan completely on that above statement
now that is why even tho my club is orientated more towards FC,.. i.e. we do a grading syllabus from white belt to black belt,... our uniform is club tshirt+ FC long pants,.. and your belt depending on your grade.
Also,... a lot of my students wear shin pads,... some wear the boots as well,...
so yeah were mostly FC than MT.
BUT:
from the beginning, i teach ppl kicks wiht the shin including low kicks,... i also teach the shin block and not a forearm block against a low kick
i teach what little i know about clinchwork,...and we do knees on the pads right from day one , i also teach elbows (for the street only!!!)
and in sparring i allow ppl to kick the legs if both partners agree,.. most will agree to leg kicks in sparrign only a few do not.
When there is a show coming up ,... we will look at the rules : i.e. FC , L-con, Low kick, Thai boxing,... what ever ,... and then well train accordingly.
All FC clubs shud do the same thing i think .

Jag, you are wrong my old friend, if you took away a Thai fighters Knees, low kicks and elbows, he could could still, BOX = JAB,CROSS,HOOKS & UPPERCUT, we also have Mid section turning kicks (Which score better than low kicks anyway) and for those of us who can do it, Head kicks, spinning back kicks (Both heel/hook kick & push kicks)
So you will see, what you said is wrong and very narrow minded, no offence, just ponting out the obvious for you.
But, many MT clubs also practice western boxing, like my club where my students will box for 5 x 3 mins, MT 5 x 3 mins, clinch 5 x 3 mins.

Sometimes I concentrate on just boxing in a lesson, don't tar all fights/instructors with the same brush and those of us who run clubs are all successful in our own rights.

All pointless slanging about MT, KB & FC, will not get clubs anywhere!1

And now for my final thought......Damn too much Jerry Springer :-)

Take care all.
Respect to ALL Martial Arts & those who practice them.

TTFN.

TONY H

I showed some girls, one who has seen some MuayThai and one who hasn't, some fc. I think one of the guys was a big name too. They both laughed at it. I am not making this up.

The reason for my showing it was I wanted to show the differance between kickboxing and MuayThai.

I have to admit this was an older tape and I think skills have improved abit over the years(copying MuayThai and boxing).

The way the majority of the training camps in Thailand really emphasize on boxing techniques also. There are a lot of muay thai fighters in Thailand that fights international boxing now to earn more money and they have great hands. So boxing is not a muay thai fighter's weakness at all. Famous camps in Thailand such as Sithyodtong, MaiMongkong camp, all have international boxing champions.

I think the top gyms tend to have it all. Many gyms may have good hands but still not use them much.

Gyms with boxers or boxing champs doesn't mean the Thai boxers train any differently.

I trained with a couple boxers in Thailand, got to spar some too, they trained boxing and everyone else trained MuayThai. Different program etc. I didn't think anyone else was doing more hands than is typical.

i think the future of kickboxing will be that FC will still be around but will play 2nd fiddle not necesaarily to muay thai,.. but a new rules style that will be kinda like a K-1 rules for amateurs,....
and FC clubs will adapt and start getting their own clubs to practise K-1 rules but maybe have them wear shin pads to begin with,....
i.e. theyll wear shin poads and fight K-1 rules with limited clinching amongst themselves i.e. against toehr Fc figthers,... so slowly but surely,.. theyll learn the use of low kicks and knees,.. but theyll still keep their good boxing skills which theyll win many of their fight with and theyll also use a lot of good hick kicks,... eg. side kicks,..etc

right to the point where FC will still be around but on the udnercard
what do you think guys?

I do love both sports so it would nice to see KB gyms practise both styles,.. i dotn want KB clubs to lsoe their identity but they shud adapt and do both styles,...
TONY HAYES: i dotn know you but respect buddy,.. youve got good views and a good mind fr0om reading your post you sound as if you know what youre talking about.

>1. the WAKO amateur worlds are much harder to win than 90% of any world >titles,.. a lot of title fights are "set up"
>if you are a WAKO AM world champion ,. you ARE a bloody world champion!!!

I represent wako on the local plan and thus what I say might be biased yet I can't agree more. Material proof : NONE of the local kyokushin & kb legkick champions could stand more than 2 rounds against the top 3 fc heavies (+91, 91 and 86 divisions) for the simple reason that these guys had very consistent experience so their opponents had one weapon (legkicks) against all the others they could much better manage (ring tactic, footwork etc). Best fc local contender recenlty was invited to a K1 local contest, promoters having maybe thought that they will provide their man a low target. To their surprise, their man went down twice for an 8 count and lost the match (and it was a 5-round one) before he could do the expectable things (chopping the legs, working with knees) I know this is an exception and it should NOT become a reason to be overcomfident. It just proves that good fighters are good fighters.

i agree with mark l...

i believe that the good boxers had to be quitted from mt and heve been fighting in quinsbury boxing in order to get success...i think that there may be only a few exceptions who could be successful at the same time in boxing and also mt together ...(emphasize should be given seperately to one of those since the methodolgies are different...)

(it is said when even jomhod was requested to show his boxing abiliteies to the promoters in europe , he has surprised them with lack of boxing skills ...but, without this richness he was also the champion in mt before...i think that this proves that alone excellent quinsburry boxing skills are never working in mt...they may work in fc a lot ,but in mt there is a questionmark always...)

cheers,

As for protective gear in itself : if an amateur would need to fight 4 or 5 matches to make it to the top in a national scale event would one let him do so without padding so as to have all the semi- and final bouts turned into abandons from smashed shins and broken ankles ? It is easy to say "learn them kick and block proper", much harder to do so. The long pants are a mess for legkick rules in any event because silk folds are causing awful shin cuts if there are no shinguards (the karate pants like those in kyokushin are made of a more rigid material and can't pinch the skin and tear it when a legcheck is done). So uniform is actually more or less a matter of adaptability to rules and less a matter of marketability. I know this will hurt some purists. I had personal discussions with top amateur organizations officials and all apart few advocated the use of ankle protections like the boots used in fc even in legkick rules, or at least of some shinguards covering ankle area too because after a dozen of legkicks thrown against opponents who make miss well and after the consecutive dozen hits ankle against calf the regular amateur will have his ankle smashed beyond repair let alone kicking elbows. With short pants it looks even more ridiculous yet it allows less damage to occurr.

Couple of quick ones:

Dan says'wear shorts like boxers. Not satin pants. this aint the 70's'
Well you can't have it both ways. whenever some KB clubs wear shorts some MT 'snobs' bleat on about they ain't MT so why they wearing shorts!


and Tony says
'All pointless slanging about MT, KB & FC, will not get clubs anywhere!'

Exactly, best post by far. Accept the differences and learn from each other (whoever 'each other' are)

Colin Payne writes:

Couple of quick ones:

Dan says'wear shorts like boxers. Not satin pants. this aint the 70's'
Well you can't have it both ways. whenever some KB clubs wear shorts some MT 'snobs' bleat on about they ain't MT so why they wearing shorts!
----------------------------------------------------------------
Colin, Of course some of the priesthood will question it.
. And you got be prepared to tell them to eat S##T and die.
Now, I realize nobody wants to speak to a holy man like that.
But sometimes it's necessary.

The public looks for familiar markers to decide if the
proposed fight event is too esoteric for their tastes. .
so make it (your preferred style) look as much as possible
like a fighting sport, (such as boxing)that they already understand.
they also understand and will accept kicking- due
to the martial arts films.
But the armored padding screams: "amateur!! at them-even
though we know it aint necesarily so.

And yes, I do hear Smiler. I got bad feet too- I hated jammed/broken toes,
blue feet, living in perpetual pain, etc.
But, at least make the clown shoes optional-not mandatory.
That would help a bunch. If only a few people who truly need the
clown shoes are wearing them.
Then it looks more like Kareen Abdul Jabbar with his goggles.
Not standard NBA attire, but a necessary accomodation
for a great athlete with a legitimate need.


And ets flush that weird minimum kicks rules. No fighter should be forced to use a certain techniquea cerain number of times-unless he deems it to be effective for HIM/HER. Especially when it that have to
be explained by the tv commentators, and confuses the viewers. The rules shouldn;t take more than ten seconds to read to the audience.

In signing off of this thread, I also want to say I deeply respect the athleticism and fighting spirit
of FC fighters.
I deeply enjoyed watching Bill Wallace.
I just think those two things (minimum kick rule and boots)
should be removed to make it more spectator friendly.
I apologize to anyone I may have offended. I just want to see FC more
spectator friendly. It does affect all of us, when people see that on
tv-and think THAT is kickboxing. When it is only one of sevral variaations.

But, now Its time(for me)to stop talking about this.
I agree, Colin, we need to work together, not at cross purposes.
Now,we all know how the other feels. So, hopefully we can leave this thread
with a bit of respect for the other persons point of view.

dan

but without the minimum kick rule and the boots,...
then it simply wouldnt be FC would it?
just imagine,...
2 FC figthers fighting in 1. shorts,.. 2. bare feet 3.no Miminum kick rule,...
what would we have,... a lot of the time it would look like International rules,.. but with no leg kicks?
remove the boots and remove the kick count,.. then it may as well be low kick

youve gotta remember that FC and MT are 2 completely different games!

Farhad writes:

but without the minimum kick rule and the boots,...
then it simply wouldnt be FC would it?
just imagine,...
2 FC figthers fighting in 1. shorts,.. 2. bare feet 3.no Miminum kick rule,...
what would we have,... a lot of the time it would look like International rules,.. but with no leg kicks?
remove the boots and remove the kick count,.. then it may as well be low kick


-----------------------------------------------------------------
Well, yes and no. I suppose we could reasonably
call it "modified" full contact, kind of like "modified" Muay Thai
without elbows, is definitley "modified".

i mean you still have the above waist only kicks. So none of the essential fighting techniques are changed at all.

So,I guess I don't fully understand what would be so wrong (bad)
with simply letting the individual fighter decide if he wants to wear the boots, and long pants or not. To me, it would still be full contact.
Yes? no?

as for the minimum kick rule, from what I have learned from the FC guys in
this thread, is that in most cases the 8 kicks per round come naturally anyway.. So,
how's the game gonna be totally ruined by simply not punishing a guy who
decides for strategic reasons NOT to throw 8 kicks in a round?

I don't think you could call it international rules, even though the attire
is identical. unless the attire is somehow very important culturally and estheticallly, to FC people-the way a mongkwon (head ring) and praciats
(arm bands) are to Muy Thai practioners.(items they take off before
they fight.
I thought the boots were to simply protect the feet? not
essential simply because they are part of a tradional uniform?
Smiler made me understand that some people really need the boots.
but why make somedody wear them who had rather not?

A word About the Thai "purists":

some places just won't let us do elbows because of local laws. so we have "modified" Thai.
but, Thai purists hate "modified" Thai. I prefer the elbows too,
but I can be flexible enough to still enjoy it modifed. And I don't
agree with those that argue that "no elbows" = "no Thai". If it aint
Muay Thai what is it? it certainly isn't FC or international rules?

By the same token full contact with the option of wearing
shorts, no shoes and no minimum kicks,
you still have above the waist only kickboxing-so all your
essential fighting techiques are unchanged.



dan

Man, I can't believe this thread has gotten so big! I didn't even bother reading until now because I thought everyone knew it was a forgone conclusion that FC is dying a slow but sure death.

Whether or not FC fighters have better hand techniques is irrelevent. Personally, I don't buy that but even IF it were true, the fact remains that in terms of overall popularity, PPV, international exposure, etc., FC will never get back to its PKA-Joe Corley glory days.

One or two die hard FC hanger-on's isn't going to stem the "legkick" being brought on by the GLOBAL popularity of K1, MT, kickboxing.

i agree kung fu kid,.. but there no reason why Fc and low kick cant exist side by side
i persoanlly teach both of them
i teach the high kicks,.. the side kicks,.. the ook kick axe kick etc,...
i also teach low kicks,.. shin blokcs and knees,...

That's great Fahad, but it sounds like what your saying is that you teach popular FC techniques to incorporate into a style that allows for legkicks... that is VERY different than saying you train/fight in a style that does NOT allow legkicks.

That is what I think is foolish... the guys who train/fight exclusively in FC. It's only a matter of time before they go the route of the hoola hoop, betamax tapes, and 8-tracktapes. I'd guess that some of the younger people on this board don't even know what those things are! I'm sure that will be the same with FC eventually.... your average kickboxing fan will be saying "what do you mean you kickbox but don't kick to the legs?"

Hi,
Thank you to those of you who commented on my post, I just want contact sports MT, KB, FC & K1 to get what it needs.
Positive publicity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I always pojnt out to my students or potential students that they are practicing Muay Thai & not Kickboxing, not for any other reason but as to increase awareness of the differences.

We had a joker in my area before, Dave Jenkins, to coin a phrase what a plonker!
Always telling new students that Muay Thai & Kickboxing are really the same sport, he never even showed them how to spar or hold pads correctly.

It is people like that who damage the sport/Arts we all practice through neglect in his duties as an instructor, all you professional instructors will know only to well what I mean.

Let us rise above slanging (Yes, I was slanging the above guy, but only because he is a plonker & no good for MT or KB)help each other grow, help the sport different forms grow by working together.

Which would lead me to ask, is anyone interested in a making a list for instructors for different areas?
I will create a post, if you could list what areas you are in, I will compile a list so that if we have a potential student call us and they live to far away from our gyms, we can recommend another instructor for a closer area to them.

I do not care if you teah MT, KB or FC, but please let me know.
If you teach all three or two of them, list your primary form.

Thanks all,

Tony :-)

Kung Fu kid:
i teach a "universal system" that is designed to adap[t to both situations and i teach my students not to turn their nose up at any of the systems
actually i get my novices to do Light continuous tournaments to get a feeling of the compettition scene first b4 trying FC or MT

Tony , this "plonker" you mention,... you say he is bad for the sport,...
just playing devils advocate but have you and him had some personal falling out?
Or is he REALLY bad for the sport ,... i.e. does he bullshit ppl or ruff up beginners,... or does he overcharge,... ?
Just curious , it would be interesting to here what ois seen as beign bad for the sport

Hmm!

I teach 'K1 style' kickboxing, 'cause thats what I currently compete towards...

My classes though are attended by Full Contact, light continuous, Thai, low kickers, karateka, ju-jitsu fighters - a true mishmash, and true to the K1 Mixed Martial Art concept!

They all have their place, and enjoy their practice! Its down to each student to put his own individual slant on my teachings....

Smiler

good thinkign smielr, my club is very much like that too although we also have TKD and kung fu ppl too!!!
lol!!!

so whens the next BIG world / european / commonwelath titles in FC taking place?
WHERE are they taking place?
WHO is fighting for these big titles?

ha ha ha that proves my point
is FC not even worht talkign about???

Wrong at least by my seepoint.

WAKO world fc championship to be held in Paris Oct. 21-st this year. Top contender from my place Florin Pintescu, bronze medalist 2001 and european silver medalist 2002. He recently fought and won his first K1 rules match and will have a second one on aug. 20-th. He started a bit old the K1 stuff (he's 29) but his sparring partner is following close and if things keep going he will very likely do a good job (23 y.o. in top shape and has already a long amateur record). So it depends on opportunities and on fighters' quality. If local opportunities are poor, it is better to develop a fc career rather than nothing.

Farhad, I'm holding my second European title fight this year on 7th Sept. Not 'all english' European titles but good British Champions against top european opposition.

To reach the bronze medal = win all the fights but the semifinals in superheavy division, one is required to have 4 matches (as it occurred in the above case). A 24-man tournament with 5 matches to the top nr 1 and receiving heavy blows even if no legkicks is a tough thing to do.

I admit that most fc fighters use fc just as a platform to migrate to more permissive/complete disciplines yet it is still a legitimate sport. If the training curriculum is carefully designed one can survive in both legkick and no-legkick disciplines with good results.

Supposedly fc will finally die, kb format with legkick rules should supply the empty space and as far as my place goes for, there is still a consistent lack of good amateur coaches let alone pro level. MT or k1 format as universal fighting disciplines are still a dream. Out of 10 kids migrated in 3 years to my place from gyms pretending to do "MT" only 3 had consistent experience in legkick format and none in clinching/kneeing/elbowing fighting routines more than anecdotic level. All the rest did actually fc and trained anecdotically for legkicks with a mixture of boxing plus kicks which leads more or less to bad habits (excuse me for being haughty but seasoned trainees and coaches will for sure know what I mean). And this said whilst keeping in mind that I do NOT say about myself I am a MT coach.

Nevertheless, I can think about the opposite and say that mass basis for MT is present and people grow educated about differences. It is better to recruit trainees from other contact sports be them built on some bad habits than to have to re-invent the wheel as shotokan practitioners had to when fc was the leading guide. And with all due respect for classic karate (although they sometimes demand much more respect than they are willing to pay) I had a sad day when a kid with 9 years of classic pointfighting training came to my place and asked to be trained in kb. He was 19 and held some medals in local competitions. It took not more than a blink to see that he was built on such bad habits that it would have been better for him not to have trained at all. At a certain point, he abandoned. Comparatively, boxing, fc, tkd, kyokushin are things upon which one can hope to build something even if it'd be desirable to have the trainees start MT from the beggining. People should be taken from where they are not from where we wish to. Goes the same for training strikers even from the "purest" MT background to face ufc/MMA environment.

wow unicorn youve got a lot of knowledge,.. and youre posts are alwys of an intellectual nature,.. colin??? tell me more!!!

unicorn:
i agree completely with the training curriculum thats why i call it a universal ssytem
then ppl can train for leg kick and no leg kick discipliens at ocne
thats how kickboxing shud be
you shud have both options :
e.g.
above waist = L-CON/FULL CONTACT
leg kicking= LOW KICK/THAI/K-1

what do you think?
THIS is the way forward

1. Development
2. Everything Changes
3. Modify
Allthe above have been stated in a few peoples posts ( esp: DANS )
and For Anything to stay ALIVE you need to
as all 3 expose............ "ADAPT" or Die !
Simple !

Well, thanks for appreciating my thoughts - would practice be that simple as theory ... :))

well the problem now in FC is that there are no "stars"
the big names apart from a few exceptions:

Neil Kelly , Fran zuccala, Harvey harra,.... and a few others,...

most of the other top guys are not competent kickers,.. all they sue is front kick and round house kick then rely on boxing. if you want to see round kicks and front kicks,.. you can see all that in MT or K-1,... only difference is the boots and the shorts/long pants.

The 3 guys i mentioned above are good kickers and KO ppl with head kicks.
what they all have in common is that are all Black Belts,.. and are taught kickboxing a "martial arts" way.
while the new "kickboxers" are basically Boxers who can kick a bit.
and what the promoters tend to do is just teach theyre students to box and not bother to kick,....then they match theyre glorified boxers against martial artists,.. and without knowing it they kill the Martial arts guys off from FC early,.. then slagg them off,...
what they dont realise is that theyre stopping ppl who could be good kickers and cud be future stars of FC from getting theyre foot in the door and becoming good fighters with the right matches.
but instead FC is promoted by a lot of promoters who only look after theyre own.
Not ALL promoters are like that mind you,...

the worst thing is that the FC ppl on ehre dont even acknowledge that there is a problem

You are right here - same history as legkick rules kb thrashing knockdown (Kyokushin) derived fighters. As usually it builds a lose-lose situation.

1. No money in it,... ive heard this time and time again and am sick of hearing this,....

But starting from where it started ... man, this is a ridiculous situation. I am receiving mails from the posting boards I moderate in my place with things like "I am willing to commit into K1 business, where can I train, my record is of (follows a totally irrelevant record k1-wise, although maybe respectable as amateur). Lol ! Does someone make money in amateur boxing, even after being X times national champion (which is hard as nails in amateur boxing in consecrated countries) and earning - say - a bronze in world amateur events. Haha. People accept to run marathon and earn bananas, throw javelin or fence or grapple and earn chewing gum. Any smart ass with a blackbelt fancies him Le Banner. This is the last cause of not having a sports discipline grow.
And let's face it, pro business is the last one to help amateur mass basis improve and enlarge. Pro business will rather destroy it if ill managed, by virtue of money and not the opposite - bring the carcass they say, vermin will breed before the vultures.

I am saying this not because I hope something (or not) good for fc - it is the same threat menacing MT, K1, ufc or whatever. Don't overestimate the market boom. Makes sport hang on the fashion. Remember karate boom, tkd boom, etc. boom :)) They all died. And they all died imho BECAUSE of the boom. People were enticed to exploit situations, quarrel like hell for illegitimate matters, split sanctioning bodies up to having a world champion in each town larger than 100000 inhabitants, spreading sport by coaches built overnight, fabricate events with no substance and last but not least yell lungs out and cover legitimate voices and make silence conspiracy around legitimate values. Hopefully this will not happen now again. But hope with no backup is not hope, is insane attitude.

Oh, yeah - and then this stupid issue - who beats who will decide which style is better, this will win the market. Haha. No one sees the vulnerable point in it : there will be always a "better thing" issuing once money enticed people to fix things in shapes and make patterns for earning money instead of keeping fighting spirit alive. Usually the vicious circle looks like "new discipline comes out, people have attention drawn, market makes room, there is a boom, leaders become haughty and totally ignorant about potential other disciplines developing, fail to notice threat, start to bash on new issued trends, point at which they are vanity-commited on their own position, they are also afraid to change something-market is saturated-wannabees denaturate the thing up to becoming mc-martial systems-politics mixes dirt-people grow demotivated-newcomers seize opportunity and undermine the already old stuff-new thing appears. Common note : effort of generations is wasted, all have to re-invent wheel the n-th time. Good note : capable coaches will shift from one place to another at ease. With some difficulties maybe, but there is scarcely an excellent officer in command who would be so clumsy in modernizing/updating/changing his tools. Actually good ones are good because they are able to foresee trends and adapt even before it is needed.

So finally no reason to be pessimistic. Just the old story : "fortune rota volvitur/descendit minoratus/alter in altum tollitur/nimis exaltatus". (Wheel of fortune turns around, down go the unlucky who diminish; others rise skyhigh, in exaltation). By the way, this is Jerome Le Banner's entrance song - really lovely :)

Just to defend F.C fighting......I dont see why everyone has such a problem with it. If you dont like it, don't watch or dont participate in the style...But different strokes for different folks. I personally enjoy competing and watching Full Contact Kickboxing. Everyone has different opinions, and different tastes, but instead of knocking it, why cant we all just respect each other as fighters and focus on whichever style you choose to train in.

i do a bit of FC myself and i like it and would love to see it progress
but sadly the prmoters have killed it off

Correction, young and youthful Farhad!

Its the fighters that have killed it off (if indeed they actually have).

'Cause more of us full contact fighters are going low kick, K1 and Thai, so there's less of them....

And as a promoter, who includes full contact, if a F/C fighter can put bums on seats I'll definately promote them!

Just a thought...

Smiler

Full contact is not dieing, it is still going strong, My gym has never been so busy i have never had so many fighter competing, So many shows happining, and i say fullcontact still pull big crowds just come to one of my or Colins shows to see what i mean, and the full contact show on the 29th in walsall i will pit money on that there will be a bigger crowd there than there was at the K1 max.

Who wants to start the betting,

Good point Jag , im with you on that one .......... at least i hope i am .. lol

Yep - there you go!

Jag has lots of fighters wanting to do FC....and they put bums on seats, therefore its profitable for a promoter to put the shows on.

Smiler

This thread is far 2 much shit 2 read.

Full contact is dying....it's dying on Ax. Ax is a (predominate) Thai boxing site with a lot of the top people in it present at some time or another on the site for most of the time I've been looking in. Nearly all the promoters who promote predominate FC are not on here, so we get a uneven picture of what's going on here in the UK. I come on here because I'm interested in what's going on no matter what the rules, and I like the occasional argument. They on the other hand probably have better things to do with their time. (as I should!)

Jag is 100% with what he says. He and I have spoken a couple of times about this. We're mega busy in our gyms, have packed out shows all of the time, and see more and more people coming in to compete.

As for FC being 'killed off by the promoters'. Sorry farhad mate but you've got to back that up with more detail. I know you've had a couple of bad experiences with promoters in the past, but that's not a full contact thing, that's a people thing.

The one thing I will say is we are a little short on 'stars' in FC code at the moment, but things never stay the same and you've only got to look at heavyweight Boxing which is going into a bad spell after the highs of the Tyson-Holyfield-Lewis era. Things change all the time, we have the upcoming Woods-Zucala fight which should be good. The possible return of Neil kelly and upcoming prospects like Nick Gill, Barinder Singh and Gary taylor to name just three.

To finish with I would say that there are actually very few promoters who are totally 100% FC. Most, like myself also feature Thai and low kick bouts on their shows whenever a suitable bout is available. Jag recently had Fahad in a Thai bout as one example. A lot of people have gone into great detail here why they prefer one code over another but that's exactly why they all exist, it's horses for courses. Enjoy what you like, but don't close your eyes to other things, you never know what you might miss.

I see there is over 100 posts on here on this subject. Funny that, there being so much interest in a dying sport!

Well put Colin !! ... youre right for a mixed discipline site it is very Thai orientated , theres nothing wrong with that at all but it does make the general views and opinions one sided , but like you say it shouldn't be one sided because it shouldn't be a case of sides .

As for the up and coming fights / fighters there is alot to look forward and i really hope Jag is right about Nov 29th Walsall town hall being busier than the K1 show the other sunday , K1 was a cracking show to watch just a shame about the turn out ( alot of people missed out ) .. Lets hope the 29th's World title brings a bigger crowd !!

Oh one question Colin .... whos this WOODS in the WOODS V ZUCCALA fight , im sure last i checked it was WOOD !! ha ha ha Have i been replaced and no ones told me !!

Oops! a stray S got in there, Sorry.

As if to prove my point about busy predominate FC shows, I won't be at your fight I'm afraid as it's one day before my next event. I've got some German and Irish fighters coming over so will be looking after them. So best of luck.

I owe an apollogy to all the FC fighters as I thought FC is a boring affair - well after seeing an Amateur fight in Hungary on 10-13 nov WPKA Euro Champ , I have to change my mind. It was two very good fighters one fromn Russia and one from Kazachstan and man - those guys made FC look awesome!!!! Bombs, hard high kicks, good footwork.
I will get the names tommorow.

Funny how someone started this thread witht the title:

"Topic 'Full Contact Is Going No Where!!!'"

By the number of posts alone, which appears to be the second most popular thread on this page, that it proves this style is STILL very popular around the world.

we can confirm, it is VERY POPULAR STILL! As are all styles in our sport.

Dynamo :

>>It was two very good fighters one fromn Russia

Russians are tremendous in fc as in all other contact disciplines. I hope to be able to get the WAKO-Paris final at -67 between the Russian and Finnish opponents - my mates there said the boxing match of the century looks pale - they traded for the whole match in an awesome flurry and nothing was brutality or mere sportsmanship prowess, it was top tech stuff. And yeah, there were so many brutal head kick KO-s that they sometimes needed more than a stretcher at a time :)

Well said IKF

It has been said the mandatory kick count is a bad thing - "that people end up throwing sloppy kicks, not worried about landing, just to get the minimum kick count in."

I couldn't disagree with that more. I have watched my fight tapes, and I average between 20 to 30 kicks a round(usually more kicks in the earlier rounds).

So, whether your fighting MT or FC, if you can't handle mustering up a good solid 8 kicks per round, them maybe you should be boxing instead.

I was always told not to bother counting kicks as a fighter - if you can't get more than 8 kicks in each round you haven't trained properly!

Smiler

Good point smiler , it should be a natural part of your training to feed regular kicks into your boxing . I fought a guy in Germany who over 10 rounds mustered up an average of 4 kicks per round , and in a European challenge that tally is a disgrace !!

exactly!!! the kick count shud be enforced even at novice / C class level!!!
but some muppety officials dont enforce that!!!

You would have thought you wouldn't have to keep your eye on the kick count at A class , So C class bouts should be strictly enforced to make it become second nature therefoe producing higher quality fighters .

Used to be a big supporter of kick counters but not now, and here's my reasons:

It really does not look good to see a trainer, who knows his fighter is down on counts with 40 seconds to go shouting himself hoarse, 'KICK, KICK, KICK' and (if he's started to panic) ' FOR F**K SAKE KICK!'.. No matter how much we want to see kicks, do we want that? it looks very very unprofessional.

8 kicks a round seems about right, but do want 8 kicks thrown madly in the first 30 seconds or is not 7 better spread through out the round? Do you get my point?

'muppety officials don't enforce that' - What's that about?? That's really unfair on the vast majority of officials who give their time for not a great deal of money so shows can go ahead. When I officiated last week I was away from my family for 13 hours! Lots of others do the same.

Penalise the non-kicker in the judges scorecards. Punches count but kicks score more and train the officials accordingly. Get the referees to speak to the fighters if they are not kicking enough. Not keen myself on taking points away but make the fighters aware that they're losing rounds by not kicking.

colin by muppety officials i meant the judges and the ref for that matter
1. the refv shud tell the other fighter to kick or hell be marked down
2. the judges shud score the bout accordingly

i fought one guy in a FC fight and he hardly ever kicked!!!
he kicked me a couple of times in the groin,...a couple of times on the hip bone and once or twice on the arms,.. yet he got the decision despite the fact that i landed LOADS of kicks in the whole fight.

farhad, we agree I think..it's just the referee and judges have to be given clear directives.

in this case i think the judges WERE given clear directives,... let the home side do what they want and if its close ,.. give it to the home side
LOL

8 kicks per round...thats one kick every 15 seconds!

1....2....3....4....5....6....7....8.....9....10....11....12....13....14....kick

damn...I would have gone home by now!

There are only 6 in amateur bouts. And a pro should really kick if we mean pro :)

i agree completley