Hi!

On topic(ish!)

What happens if a professional kickboxer (me) ends up in Guantanamo Bay?

Channel 4 in March are screening The Guantanamo Guidebook, investigating torture techniques at Guantanamo Bay, by using 7 'volunteers'. I was contacted by the production company, thought it sounded like a challenge and an interesting and educational bit of life experience - so I said yes and was signed up! It was filmed just before Christmas.

So will US Special Forces be able to break me? How hard was it? Did I survive?

Enjoy the funny press people start to make assumptions about the show, then watch it and make your minds up, then I'll be posting information on what happened!

Smiler

Lol! Just a thought! How would Farhad have faired?

Smiler

smiler, i know that comment was made in jest
and youre a good guy and mean no harm etc,...
but in all honesty , guantanamo bay is not in the slightest bit funny

what theyre dxoing to inoocent ppl who they managed to just chance on seeing in pakistan and afghanistan is a fucking disgrace

just thought id let you know

yoiu even said that a lot of what they do is against the geneva convention

Farhad,

Definately in jest, but also to see how you would be treated by the SF captors!

They treated everyone differently, and you have strong views...and are prepared to voice them! Therefore it would be interesting to see how you would have been treated. It would raise our understanding of the situation and treatment still further....

Three of the prisoners with me were muslims, all of varying strength of views. You'll see how they got treated, and you'll see the intent of my post!

You'll also see in the programme my views on the treatment, including innocents...and after the showing I'll discuss how my views adjusted following debriefing, and finding out more facts than the press discuss. It was a real eye-opener!

I gotta sit down and have a coffee with you after the showing - I'd love to know your views after you've seen it!

Smiler

id probably end up being killed (if im lucky!)
or maybe even worse!!!

hearing about the stuff they do to the prisoners,... id rather be killed!

is it true that they bend ppl over (i.e. bumming ppl) in the cells ? or is that just a rumor?

dont you think this needs putting in the off topic forum tho gary?

Lol!

Its killing me! I'm contracted not to give any exact details until after its been shown! I can't tell anything!

But then, its common knowledge that the interogators look for any potential weakness on a character to expoit it to break you...obviously they tried to find weaknesses in me.....(did they?)...and once a weakness was found it is used against you...it was really funny the assumptions that they made about me, lol! And chatting afterwards, they told me what they had planned for me if I'd bitten, lol - you guys would have taken the mick out of me rotten!!!!

One thing's for sure - Guantanamo Bay is an uncomfortable place.

But to get back on thread, the question is asked - does a kickboxer have the required mental and physical skills necessary to survive?

Smiler

Didn't they change your name to 'smile-like-a-donut'... ;)

Lol - I'll give you this bit - a kickboxer knows he needs food! Check me out stuffing donuts down me gob as I know I'm about to be arrested!!



Smiler

Monday night, 11pm, Channel 4, and lots of press appearing in the next few days including the Mirror tomorrow and Radio Times...

Have a laugh as I suffer, lol!

Smiler

23:05 Torture: The Guantanamo Guidebook
[subtitles]
Continuing the special season of programmes examining the use of, and justification for, torture in the war against terror. In this powerful and shocking programme, seven volunteers - some of whom began by supporting the Guantanamo regime - agreed to submit themselves to some of the conditions and coercive methods used at Guantanamo Bay.

"what theyre dxoing to inoocent ppl who they managed to just chance on seeing in pakistan and afghanistan is a fucking disgrace ""

Who deems them innocent Farhad, you ? International judge now as well as an instrustor and maths teacher.

Some of them are there for good reason and deserve everything they get. I'm sure a few innocent people have been detained, unfortunately that will always be the case when you have that hnumber of people detained.

I for one have little or no symapthy for the Britons who were held there and have just been released. Treason is still the only crime punishable by death. Some say they got off lightly.

Rant over !!

Before you went in, did you suport the view that Guantanamo is necessary, or will all be revealed in the programe?

It all sounds quite interesting, It'll certainly be interesting to hear the views of the recent UK detanees that were released to see how close C4 made the programme to the real thing.

Obviously there's one massive pice of the jigsaw that they can't recreate and that's whether you'll actually be released or not. You would have always known you'd be out after a time whereas others in the real Guantanamo have no idea if or when they will be released.

Smiler, will you be my friend?

Can't give details away until its shown - then I'll give loads of feedback!!

Mo - not if the call for prayer goes off again at 6am that loudly when I'm having my (much needed!) beauty sleep, lol!!

Basil, you're right - we always knew it was a limited experience. This also meant they had limited time to break us though...and as we knew it was being filmed, it also made certain elements much more psychologically hard, and they used that too...

I'm gonna watch with interest too! The production company (Twenty twenty television - do Lads Army, Brat Camp, That'll Teach 'Em, and loads of 'Despaches' documentaries for channel 4) are usually really true to thier subject matter, without putting undue spin on it, so it should be presented fairly.

Smiler

Thats called the Azaan call for prayers, I try to avoid it too. lol as my papa has the scanner on which picks it up from the local mosque.

When will this be on Smiler?

Monday night, 11.05pm!

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/tm_objectid=15229002%26method=full%26siteid=50143%26headline=inside%2dguantanamo%2duk-name_page.html

Daily Mirror article today...further article in the Independent on Sunday.


Smiler

TTT

Its on tonight - Farhad, your comments after please!

Back on thread though, I had an interview with the Independent, and he'd seen the footage. His comments were that I wasn't a suitable candidate for the study as I could probably do what 95% of the British Army couldn't do. (His words, not mine - I have an incredible respect for the British Army, and that's part of the reason for me doing the experiment.)

So do you think that as fighting sportsmen, we have the mental and physical capabilities from our training to make us able to get through such a process?

Smiler

Smiler,

Thanks for the heads up, I really look forward to watchin this now.

Let you know my thoughts tomorrow.

FB'Slim

Under torture anyone will break its just a matter of time. I can't wait to watch it. Bet its all sleep deprebation, white noise and all that sort of thing.

eeekkkkk!!!!!! just read the article from the mirror!!!!!

smiler in naked homo torture programme???

poses some serious questions from a political point though....

and in answer to your question smiler....yeah! we are double-hard bastrds both menatly and physically...
I think we would last longer than the average joe...but as baz says we all break in the end...so is it better or worse for us having a bit more tenacity?


have you seen "The Recruit" with Al Pacino?

"naked homo torture.'' lol at Noi

Can't wait to watch it bet its totally mad

From the experts I worked with, conversing after the show...not every breaks....

Thats part of the problem...

White noise, sleep deprevation, sleep deviation, food deprevation, food deviation, physical beastings, stress positions, sensory depravation, sensory bombardment, forced shaving, intense cold, sustained light...

And thats just the physical....just like an every day training session in Holland, lol!

The mental is a different story...

Smiler

wow smiler... you are one tough cookie.
suppose it will open ppl eyes to what goes on in these places.

(on a lighter note).... sounds like a game show from japan.

Oh, and in The Recruit he was a pussy at the end - its a recognised psychological tool to use someone else's pain and suffering against you...he's been trained to resist interrogation, he should have realised that it was a tool to get a response...as is everything...

Smiler

lol

Well that's just ruined that film for me, was gonna watch that 2mrow!!!!

LOL

FB'Slim

im gonna tune in toinght , to see the wee man get his ass stretched by a big marine

I heard that it is common for the guards to slice the heads off the prisoners at Gitmo. Oh wait, that's the other guys...

OMFG!!!
That was definitely an eye-opener!!!!

I think we would all like to accept that everyones society is built around common laws and values,…but when this “book” is thrown away the realms of what captors can do without exploiting physical violence is un-thinkable.
It appeared to me that laws were being written around the activities as opposed to moral judgement and all the loop-holes in legal jargon were being expolited.
I think the programme finished on a good note that the US should be taking a higher moral ground and taking an even firmer stand-point on equal rights and justice. I like the guy who knew a lil bit of the Geneva convention and made the interigators identify themselves. Classic!
There are softer styles of management/treatment which would be of more use in a situation like that….but this will take this subject off-topic.

As for a “fighters” mental tenacity and physical strength….. I feel this is more of a fact that we know the constraints we are working within. We know the rules and regulations, and there are officials to enforce these… So in short the physical strength and tenacity is more “situational”. How many times have we seen an arrogant fighter in the ring, but outside the ring is the most humble of gentlemen?
I suppose it easy to say “we are double-hard bstrds”, but in hindsight that is again a “situational” trait.

Big respect for being able to go through that.
Well done smiler! (although you werent smiling at the end!)
I did see a smerk creap across your face when they pulled that gay porn from under your bed though… he he he.

Well done gary it was a good programme very thought provoking.

Lol! They spoke over my funnies!

Whats that 91?
A magazine sir.
Whats it doing there?
Don't know sir, better ask the person that put it there!
You put it there, didn't you no.91?
A bit hard sir, we were strip searched, and its a bit of a big magazine to hide in an orofice sir!
So who put it there no. 91?!
I think one of your guards may have a personal problem, sir, and it may be a cry for help....

Lol!

Me and the fireman, Adam, didn't get shown as much as the others as we just got on and walked it!

As for the Geneva Convention, all you have to give is your name, profession and date of birth as a civvie. But my strategy, as an innocent, was to comply. A good move, as you only saw half of what happened to us, and most of the hassles were caused by Chris! He's a top lad, but during the experience we didn't feel sorry for him, as he got us punished so much!

I do really think that my sports training saw me through. Mental and physical strength. Discipline and fitness. Made it much easier to get through.

Oh, and when I got slapped as you saw, I knew it was coming. I was thinking...slip it...finger jab his throat....block it...slip it....nah, just take it like a man! Lol!

There's so much more they could have shown too!

But thanks to my fight training, it was a surprisingly easy, although uncomfortable, thing to go through.

Smiler

Smiler,

What have you been told about those magazines!!! You'll go blind!! LOL

I think the physical side of things, i.e. the sitting in uncomfortable positions for great lengths and the sitting in a draft etc are very hard but they must be nothing in comparison to the 'White noise' treatment. That would send you round the bend very quickly.

A good insight, however although they used a lot of the types of interrogation used in Guantanamo they could not abuse you physically or really push the boundaries as it was a tv documentary. If i'm honest I still don't feel sorry for the real terrorists in Guantanamo as they are responsible for causing real hurt and misery on innocent members of society. There will always be people detained who are innocent but that is probably 0.5% in any type of incarceration, it's not forgivable but it will always happen. But for the real terrorists I have no sympathy at all.

JMHO - Before anyone jumps down my throat.

FB'Slim

p.s. Smiler, I think that little guard had a soft spot for you.......'I'll look after you later' LOL

It was interesting, more of a demonsttration than an experiment. It would have been more insightful to see it go on for longer; a week, perhaps. Then they could've had a proper shot at some of the more resiliant people in there (smiler), it was interesting to see how easily some people will break and how, once they've seen even the smallest cracks start to show, they'll keep working that, on those one or two prisoners whilst all the time keeping everybody else as uncomfortable as possibe until it's their turn. Personally, I wasn't at all shocked, but it did go some way to illustrate the sorts of things that go on wich are obviously far from a good thing. I can't remember who said it, but it's said that you can only judge a country at war by the way it treats it's captured foe's. Innocent or guilty, the kind of things that go on to the men in Guantanamo are questionable at best.

Well done, Gary.

On another note, did you not find it more scary that one of the prison guards bore more than a striking resemblance to a Dr Harold Shipman?

Do we call you "Shaft" from now on? ;)

Was Chris the guy who had his head shaved?

Chris Guelf had his head shaved. His dad is a military lawyer, and he's a president of a student body, and student, at Oxford Uni.

I would have been on more, as would Adam the fireman, if we hadn't found it so easy. (Although uncomfortable.)

I too have no sympathy for the terrorists, only the innocents, who I feel real sorry for. I think I would have gone mad within a month. They've been there for years. Talking with the interrogators over dinner afterwards we were told of the real problem of Guantanamo Bay. That is resouces - all the interrogators can earn so much more in the corporate world, like them, therefore leave the army! They say that without doubt there are innocents at Guantanamo Bay, but they just aren't being processed due to lack of recourses...they're the ones I feel so sorry for.

And then again, what is the definition of terrorist? Illegal combatants? They were fighting a war, in a foreign country, as soldiers, and therefore should be treated as such - a prisoner of war.

Just my opinion, educated from the experience and discussions with the interrogators.

For info, as soon as we came out of the experience we were given alot of fast carb food, ie. chocolate and cola, had a full medical, had a full session with the psychologist, and had a full debrief from the military advisor. Then it was off to a hotel for a cup of tea and a long soak, then we all went for a big dinner with the interrogators, the other detainees, and the producers of the show.

Smiler

Could have done the helicopter trick where you go up in a helicopter then go back down to about 8 foot above the ground. You have two prisoners and chuck one out when he doesn't talk of cause he screams his head off when he goes out cause he does not know your only 8 foot above the ground you then quickly go up higher. Whip the blindfold off the other guy and hold him out saying "we killed your wanker of a friend cause he wouldn't talk how about you?'' guarteeded to make the toughest of men talk torture is a nasty business. Of course in some wars they haven't even bothered with the blindfolds and 8 foot thing and just chucked people out for real. People eh what they do to other people is insane.

The gay porn bit was funny Smiler. I bet the mental bit of the torture is harder in some ways than the physical especially seing as they couldn't go too far as it was a tv show. Did you lose track of the time they reckon thats a common thing to happen?

You mean John Snow didn't come out for a pint and some tukker with you afterwards, too?

Whats that 91?
A magazine sir.
Whats it doing there?
Don't know sir, better ask the person that put it there!
You put it there, didn't you no.91?
A bit hard sir, we were strip searched, and its a bit of a big magazine to hide in an orofice sir!
So who put it there no. 91?!
I think one of your guards may have a personal problem, sir, and it may be a cry for help....

Perhaps they thought it made light of what they were trying to get across, but I really wish they'd shown that.

There were other bits too...

When I was being 'chatted up' by the guard, he left, and I knew there was the film crew there...

So I said something like 'that guy has a serious problem. I know he's doing a job, but he drew the shortest straw on lets draw a short straw day. He's got the role a bit too good - maybe there's a room on our psychologists chair for him?'

The film crew wet themselves laughing, so I knew it couldn't be shown!

My techniques, as were Adams, were to just be complient. Rather than show anger, show wit...

Or should that be twit...

Lol!

And John Snow wasn't there during filming....post production job for him...

Smiler

I was really hoping you'd smack Harold Shipman sqaure in the beard, now that woulda been good telly :@)

Fun to watch in a "thank god thats not me" kinda way and gave a fair appreciation of how nasty that place would be. That Ginger lad was off his trolly, I'd have been gone and the merest incling of me kecks being removed.

I reckon the 'terrorist' threat is blown WAY out of proportion anyway, its all government propaganda designed to scare the nation into spending more money at Ikea and voting Tony Blair back in as PM. I also reckon holding anyone in such conditions on a mere assumption is benter that Gary's wank mags :)

But, as always, no-one knows what REALLY goes on, we can only base our views on the shite spewed out by the telly, which is usually always wrong or severly biased.

I thought I was the only one wanting that to happen!!!!

i thought it would be great to see smiler take out a full US attack team with some mad ju-jitsu action....a real life jackie chan moment!!!! he he he

You coulda taken 'em smiler,...we all know it!!!!

I thought the 2nd shortest straw went to the guy who had to slap smiler round the face...I bet he was shitting himself (from the what if he doesnt take it as a joke perspective...)

Just to let you know, Dom, or Harold Shipman, was 18 years US Delta Force, their version of the SAS, a real kinda double hard b*rstard! I don't think he was sh*tting himself, especially as at the time the full squad were behind him, and I was restrained ankle and wrists...he actually hit me quite hard too!

But when I was abducted, I knew it was coming, I sensed it from the military advisor's eyes opposite, and I did feel like throwing a couple of them! That would have been really funny...

But again, these guys are all either ex Delta Force and Rangers - trained killers, where we are trained sportsmen...would you take that risk?

In respect to the news, it always has a spin on it. Take for example the NATO action in Begrade. I know quite a few people there, and was on the email to them every day to check they were ok, and also to find out what was really happening - not their press, nor ours, but the truth. It was quite a different story...

It was even interesting during the gulf war to watch the reports live on the 24hour news channels, and see them edited for the main news in such a manner they had a completely different spin on it...

But I got some good insight into the techniques, and chatted at length with the guys as to what was actually happening out there in Cuba. I am still torn between moral and necessary, legal and military....it is a very difficult subject. But one thing's for sure - people are suffering and not all of it is necessary.

Smiler

Can't believe I missed this! I saw the earlier programme and not the later one. Smiler is it being repeated?

going back to your original question, I think yes but perhaps for different reasons than being mentally strong and fit, you train and fight within certain rules and boundaries, you do as your coach says, you do as the ref says, you work to strict rules so you are also compliant ;-)

What were they allowed to do? This is an important factor when doing a show which is infotainment. I took part in a Guantanamo protest in Manchester where they shackled you up, hoods, slept on the floor outside, placed in painful kneeling positions. All of it is fine because we can say quit, we know how long it's going to last and we know what they can do.

If you are dealing with people who don't care if they live or die what diference will torture make? You want to be a martyr.
It's different if you're innocent. You may hold out. You may wish to reconsider while watching someone rape your wife and child.

confessions made due to torture are worthless in my opinion.