1st fight - Bovy won 5 round decision over Jow...

2nd fight - Attuchai KO2 Hwang

What about the San Shou fighters?

anyone??

Yoddecha (Thai) vs Kurlu Lurtu (China) 70 kg

Yoddecha knocks down Kurlu in the second round with a big right hand. Fight continues....
Yoddecha trying to KO Kurlu with a shin kick or overhand right.
Kurlu complaining about a knee to the groin and looks on the verge of quitting.
Yoddecha looks relaxed and hasn't really had any problems with Kurlu.
Easy decision for Yoddecha

Kanongsak (Thai) vs Hwang San Jeng (China) 70 kg

In a pretty close fight, Hwang San Jeng pulled out what I thought was a close decision. The judges felt the same and with the Chinese winning this one that brings the tally to: Thai's 3 Chinese 1

Neungtrakan por Meung Ubon (Thai) vs Yang Paie (China) 75 kg

Shit - they went to the Thai news so I don't know the results of this one yet...

Those are the Chinese fighters I am referring to. It looks like it is Muay Thai 4 / San Shou 1.

Those are the Chinese fighters I am referring to. It looks like it is Muay Thai 4 / San Shou 1.

Who were the judges?

The Chinese won a close dec???? From Thai judges??? What will happen next?

I guess all that talk of the Bias judges in Thailand making it unfair didn't occur in this event.
Unless it didn't matter due to the result of the other 4 wins.

i dont know if the judges are bias.they just have a different point system.if youre going to fight in thailand,youve better learn the rules and system.

yenoneski:

You are correct. But what I was referring to is the assumption that those 50/50 fights in the last event that went towards the Chinese was because of the bias judges. The response from other SS fans was that if it was in Thailand and it was a 50/50 fight that the Thai judges would automatically rule in the Thai's favor not giving a foreigner a fair judgement. That theory did not exist(to the best of my knowledge)in this most recent event.

JWP won his 2 fights on a points decision. And i think he go's to the final next year in France. INFO courtesy of Allan Wong of Tariks site.

Yeah! But doesn't anyone know the results? I want to know about JWP! Did he win?
Does anyone where I can to find the results?

Ngakau Volcano Spain

Your the man JWP!!!

Can't wait to train at Boonchu.

Ngakau

How did the Americans do???????????

Are you at the event? Were elbows used? THROWS? We are hearing on Chinese sites that the rules were changed from what happened in China?

There were no Americans in this year´s event. The ones that went were not US citizens and really shouldn´t represent the US unless they are true citizens.

As i understand it the final result is Muay Thai 4 San Shou 1. Also the one win attributed to the Chinese was very unlucky not to go to the Thai's and the Chinese have acknowledged this. Does anyone have any definitive information?

I saw the fight and it seemed like the chinese were just getting kicked freom one corner to the other and trying deperatly to grab on to the thai's for a throw. But I have gotta give it to them,they fought tough thai's and never gave up,not once. boy they took a smashing. In the changing tent afterwards they were black and blue all over but still had big smiles-good to see.
The american Thai chap was awesome to watch.great sportsman,got caught with alot of elbows but showed great heart.Lost on points.
Eight man eliminator-round one-indegarn ko ettaki round 1 elbow I think.
moroccan fellow ko netherlands chap (name started with v)
Jwp has absolute war with duan essan and comes out on top by points
miguel marques from portugal beats musimura from japan points

semi final-indegarn beats moroccan in very tough close fight points
jwp beats miguel marques points very close to ko each round.

final indegarn vs JWP in france 2002! awesome

ps not bad for two weeks training and a year off Jwp!you da man!

Whats the prizemoney they're fighting for?
JWP is da man!Congrates to JWP!

Who fought for the US? Did Melchor fight. He is an American right? I'm pretty sure he is.

Mr ikfmdc, Muay Thai-4 Sanshou-1

The rules were awesome a true -Muaythai vs Sanshou- match
-Muay thai could use all there weapons knees, elbows,ect...
Sanshou could use all there weapons all throws were allowed...

-First match against Bovy the "4 Rajdamnern the Chinese threw
him a couple of times and after that the Chinese became a punching
bag!! Thai winner

-Second Match Attuchai por Samranchai #2 Rajdamneren the Chinese fighter couldn't get pass Attuchai's range beatiful combinations and a crushing
knee that ended the fight.Thai winner KO

-Third Match Headhunter Yoddecha, this fight was by far the most
violent.Chinese tried everything but Yoddecha was just to much for the
Chinese fighter dropping the Chinese in the third round with a punch
kick combination. Thai winner

-Fourth Match Thailands heavyweight Neungtrakan weighing 168 pounds
Chinese try to clinch to throw Neungtrkan but was a mistake Chinese
got kneed in the face!!! Thai winner KO

-Konongsak this fight was close the Chinese fighter laerned from his
teamates mistakes. So he didn't even try to attempt to ge close and throw.
The Chinese boxer look more like a muaythai fighter than a Sanshou stylist.
Winner China dec.

About the Judging the Thai's were great even the Chinese were impressed that
they gave the win to the Chinese boxer no sighns of the Thai's
trying to get even.

interesting

What about the rest of the fights?

Were has ikfmdc gone? hahahha

Silly Nong-O, I haven't gone anywhere, do you think I post 24 hours a day? Before some of you "gloat" let's remember how you also claimed the Thais would KO all the Chinese fighters, and that did not happen. Furthermore, the series still went 2-1 for China.

Thongsai, you said there were two KO wins, but the press is saying just one? Any idea why? I am glad rules were not an issue, it has been reported that up until the night before the event, the definition of "throw" was in question, based upon the different rules between Muay Thai and San Shou. In addition, the Chinese side has said that once again knees to the groin were an issue. Perhaps accident, perhaps "gettin even" but the Chinese take very seriously groin blows because of their confucian tradition and need to pass on the family name, so they were upset

Finally, teh five fighters that fought in Thailand for China came from the provincial and national AMATEUR competitions, perhaps so CHina could play the same game the Thai side did before?

Well the truth preveiled, the muay thay proved that it is still the king of the ring, The only fighter to win had to use MT style to beat his opponent. But I cive a big credit to the chinese they came to fight. I think this showing was still not the best that MT has to offer.
I knew MT will adopt to the throws in Sanda, personaly I thought the thais will pull out some traditional MT throws and tricks as we could see they used different tactics, crack an opponent with an elbow or a knee when he is trying to come in for a throw. Well the thais found a weekness and they used it to their advantage.
Funny, first it looked like getting thrown was a weaknes in MT now the throws have turned against the chinese.

I will respectfully disagree with you Dynamo.

Muay Thai lost in China twice, of course the supporters of Thai complain about it but it did happen. Muay Thai won in Thailand, supporters of San Shou could easily say that being in their home court affected the outcome, it isn't even such a stretch to say that, people always have advantage at home.

The supporters of Muay Thai said that the Chinese would ALL be KO'd. Yet these AMATEUR San Shou fighters were not all KO'd. There was 1 or 2 KO (seems confused now?) and even a win for China.

It's nonsense and propoganda to say "The only fighter to win had to use MT style to beat his opponent". Perhaps Muay Thai used San Shou to win this time because they had to train against the throws? And how do you define that above statement? Because the fighters was tough and fought hard? I said a long time ago that not all San Shou fighters fight for points. That isn't MT, it is just another flavor of San Shou.

It would be nice to see a series on neutral ground, and perhaps with non-Chinese San Shou fighters who have more of a power flavor.

Lkfmdc
So who are the chinas best in San Shou? are they keeping them preserved to fight some supernatural heroes from other planets? Please inform us about the chinas best.
The chinese complained about groin shots? Are they that stupid to think the thais did it on purpose. Come on, ohh wait you are right the chinese did loose because the thais kept kicking them in the balls all the time.
This time it was open rules all SS and all MT techniques allowed and it should be all the time like that.

I know you are trying to be an ambasador for a sport of Sanda but buddy this is a board full of people that do understand fighting, so please before you try to post someting wait for a while and then post it.

Clearly, the best amateur in San Shou is the one who wins the world championship. There are fighters from 77 countries and they fight tournament style over three days. Of the five fighters China sent, NONE had even fought in the world tournament, much less won. Is that hard to understand? I mean, if you have a world champion, they are the best, aren't they? Not just someone who has fought in their nation's tournament..

In professional, the King of San Da winners are the best IN China but probably not the best to fight the Thais because, as I said already, they favor a point style. Other countries have a much more power based flavor to China. Russia, Iran, Turkmenistan, etc vs. the Thais would be interesting. In the Draka organization, these style of San Shou fighters have CONSISTENTLY beaten Thais

I find your double standard funny. The Thai side said when they lost in China that Thailand did not send their best. But you can't believe that China might play the same trick?

You don't believe that it is all possible that a groin shot might be done on purpose? Regardless, the Chinese were upset because it is a cultural issue. Most fighters would accept a kick to the face as just a kick to the face, but a push kick to the face has a special insult to the Thai. Again a double standard, Thai can have their culture but China can't have theirs?

ikfmdc:

In your opinion, out of this entire series which one do you think had the most B. S.?

You've even written your self in the other thread about your experience with the Chinese cheating ways.

How do you feel about the Thai judges in this event in comparison to the Chinese?

This is all quite amusing.

Yes the Cinese and the Thais try to 'trick' each other and not send the best in hopes they'll lose.

Best San Shou guy is the one with the world championship. World champs aren't the best in MuayThai.


Please, examples of anyone CONSISTANTLY beating the Thais.

I'd really love to see the fights. How many times did the Chinese get kicked in the balls?? Did they forget to wear cups?? Are you really saying the Thais did it on purpose and otherwise the Chinese would have won? Man how can they go in without cups? Oh wait, maybe they had cups...then get over it.


-You guys said they'd all be KO'd. You are wrong. Yes we were. 4 wins 2 KOs and one loss. How much San Shou did the Thais use and how much MuayThai did the Chinese use?

Personally Nong-O, I don't think we need to say anything and I still don't think we need to.

I'm not try to argue style here I just enjoy and get kicks out of soe stuff said.

You hint at lots but say very little with any substance. Can you be more specific on what you mean about there being some confusion on what 'throws' were untill the day before. Sounds like that would beifit the Chinese.

Groin shots. Who or are you saying everyone?

and again :) CONSISTANTLY beating MuayThai-whos this and some examples please

I just have to say something about Thai judging since many seem to think its so biased.

I have yet to see the fights butit sounds like it was fair judging yet again.

Many people have commented on Thai judging and I still think for the most partthat is unfair.

Granted that they judge a MuayThai fight different than kickboxing but they judge it fairly within that I think.

The Chinese would have a slight disadvantage in that they score differently than you score in MuayThai though this doesn't seem to be the issue here.

Just like the Chinese will score San Shou differently and the Thais have the disadvantage even if the judging is straight up.

Not really talking about this case but it seems like the judging has been fair.

So what about the rest of the fights?

Mr ikfmdc, I do not want to argue with you I would like for you to watch
it yourself.
THE VIDEO IS COMING...

Can you two argue about this on another thread!??? Everytime I see this come to the top I think its more results and it always seems to be you girls trying to scratch each others eyes out!!!! meow!!!! :)

Damn, it was at the top and I thought there was more results.

Mark. Stop posting it to the top if you've got no results.

ok, sorry

Does anyone know which televison stations in Thailand broadcasted the event? Also, which fights were aired and which ones weren't?

I will be after a PAL version, if anyone can help me...

From Boutreview.com

(sorry about transliteration errors, going from Japanese back into Enlgish)

Yamaue (Jp) beats Sari (Fr) decision

Chopurasato (Thai) beats Meno (US) decision

Sikingsuta (Thai) beats Sukurai (Jp) 5th round TKO referre stop

13 Rianzutawa (Thai) beats Yanchu (Korea) no info on how

I think my post was quite clear but let me rephrase my arguments again

1) When the Thai team fought in China and lost the supporters of Muay Thai discounted the result because it was fought on China's home turf and because the Muay Thai fighters were not the elite.

My point is that San Shou fans could easily say exactly the same thing. Personally, I think in many ways this event was a rivalry between two nations, not two arts. It was not the best of Muay Thai vs. the best of San Shou. Strangely, I don't even think it was China's best vs. Thailand's best. Thailand did not use the stadium champions, China did not use any of it's world championship winners. The fact that the Chinese won some and fought hard should however show that they are real fighters and San Shou is legitimate, only very extreme Muay Thai fans could not give some respect for the result of this series

2) In Draka, Russian fighter Armataev beat Chitchat Pratsayawa (I probably butchered the spelling of that name, but it is not intended as an insult to the fighter)

In Draka, three time world amateur champion Ramazon Ramazanov beat Emanuele Noh, one of France's best Muay Thai fighters.

In Draka, the Turkmenistan national San Shou champion beat another ethnic Thai from Bangkok.

So far in the Draka organization there have been about 9 matches putting amateur San Shou champions turned "pro" (ie Draka format) against Muay Thai fighters. The San Shou fighters have only lost in Draka ONCE

Only extreme Muay Thai fanatics will not accept that San Shou can win in the ring against Muay Thai. There is no "magic" in Muay Thai, a better fighter is a better fighter. And they don't have to "steal" Muay Thai to win either

3) In all three of the events the Chinese complained that they were knee struck in the groin. It is impossible to say if the Thai's did it on purpose, only that the strikes happened. The Chinese were particularly upset about this for cutltural reasons, just like Thai is upset when they are push kicked in the face. Were the Thai fighters aware that this was something that had a cultural aspect as well? Who knows, though you might suspect that Thailand knows a little about Chinese culture

4) Saying the only reason the Chinese fighter won was because he used Muay Thai is a farce. He won, PERIOD. If he uses a more powerful flavor of San Shou that doesn't make it Thai.

5) On three occassions in history, Chinese teams have arrived in Thailand to fight only to find out that the "throws" allowed would only be the throws allowed within the Muay Thai rules. Muay Thai rules do not allow many of the throwing techniques routinely used in San Shou.

The Chinese team was not sure if they could use all throws until the night before the event, when it was clarified that they would use the "mixed rules" not strict Muay Thai rules.

Is that clear enough?

I respect any fighter regardless of style or even skill level as a fighter.

I have nothing against San Shou.

Getting hit in the groin is very common in Thailand so don't go talking about on purpose. You can be counted out/kicked out of the ring if you don't want to fight after a groin shot.

We seemed to know that thows would be allowed.

My bud Somsak is fighting in Vagas. Its no elbows. if he knows that(not sure that he does) and then gets there and says he can fight elbows...hey great I don't see the problem.

I am not going to go on about MuayThai vs San Shou rather the implications of foul play and what I may think of some of your arguements.

I don't recall ever seeing a Thai upset from getting pushed in the face(in a fight). The other may simply show respect after. The one resieving knows its a fight. I think this is just something you threw in from reading somewhere about Thai culture. But in the ring its a fight.

So what do the Chinese have that makes it disrespectful to hit someone in the groin that Thailand or any other country doesn't have? I don't know that much about Chinese culture, though I lived in Singapore for 7 months I still don't know that much. What is there thats different from Thailand or the rest of the world? please enlighten me.

Fights fight. I like a good fight and I respect any fighter as a fighter. I still think MuayThai is stronger but thats just my opinion.

Lmdfc you trying to trick us, what a f... you trying to argue about? did you see the fights? No, watch it and then we talk.
There is no way the thais will loose if they are cerefull about the choice of fighters they send to fight.
Those looses u claimed they were under what rules?
You still did not give us the real names of the chinese champs, are u dodging this questions or what.
You say the chinese were not the top ,wrong!
Lulurtu guy is the top and also is the guy that fought nuengtarkan, are you disinforming us?
Plus china do not have world champs in many weight classes, so how the thais can fight the champs when they do not exist.
You say they have pros in Sanda , the communist regime in china don´t allow pro sportsman.
What gives?

Some interesting questions.

Dynamo,

In your post you act like you know a lot about San Da but clearly you do not. The King of San Da circuit is professional San Da, and has existed in China now for close to three years. The government certainly allows it, the idea that a Communist regime doesn't have professional sport died in China in the 80's! China now adopts what they refer to as a "Socialist Market Economy".

Like some sort of drone, you fall back on the argument "There is no way the thais will loose"

But didn't they? They lost in China, one of them lost in Thailand this time.

But like most drones, when there is a loss you fall back on the argument that either they were not "the best" or that the rules matter. So is Muay Thai only "the best" when elbows are allowed? The Draka fights were with throws and knees. San Shou won 8 out of 9 matches.

China usually is not strong beyond 65 KG, and usually dominate 56 and 58 KG. San Shou's amateur world championships are held every two years, so those who won more than two world championships ago may not be still active. But from the last two world championships China has Shang Xiaobang who won a silver medal, Chen Lijie who won a gold, Zhao who won a gold, a few others I am probably forgetting. None of them fought in Thailand this time did they? In fact, the timing of the event was not good for the best amateurs as the last world amateur championship just concluded this November.

The Chinese Wushu Association informed me that the fighters who fought in Thailand have not even fought in the world championships, much less placed

"Lulurtu guy is the top"
According to you maybe? Why do you say this? Never fought in the world championships, isn't a current King of San Da professional champion?

A true professional vs professional match would have put the King of San Da circuit people against the Thai fighters. Why they didn't do this an put amateurs in as well I do not know. Why they put amateurs in who are not on top of the sport I don't know either. But you can look at the results of the last two world championships and see that none of those champions fought in this event

Mark L,

Several coaches of Muay Thai, including ethnic Thais, have told me that a fighter in Thailand may get very upset if push kicked in the face because of the implication of the bottom of the foot touching the head. Perhaps it is not as big a deal as I've been told, but it was what I was told.

For the Chinese, the veneration of the family from the Confucian tradition and the need to pass on your family name by having children is very culturally important. For this reason, within Chinese martial arts, groin strikes are an issue. In any sport or even in personal matches, they never strike eachother in the groin. So perhaps this is why the Chinese have made an issue of it. It has been mentioned in EVERY account I read. I already said that I have no way of knowing it is intentional, I only know the Chinese are very upset about it.

Fair enough?

eh got any pics of this?

Maybe I should of worded it better. They may not like it but in a fight they certainly aren't gonna cry about it.

I don't know. I don't think anyone likes getting hit in the balls...but maybe the Chinese more than the rest of the world.

Some interesting responses to some interesting questions. Seems like the questions are actually getting adressed.

Lkmdfc
In your posts you act like you know a lot about Muay thai but clearly you do not know anything.
Otherwise you would not put such excuses for the chinese side.
I already asked you a lot about sanda and you did not answer my questions.
So why you acting like you invented it.
You never answered my questions directly ,always trying to act them. Did it take a long time to find the answes?
Are you really that naive to think SS can better MT? It is much more easier to adopt for MT to the throws than it is for SS to adopt to elbows and knees.
Sorry gotta run c u on monday.
And Lkmdfc take it easy.

Dynamo, everyone can clearly see I answered all your questions, you just don't like the answers apparently...

San Shou can and DOES beat Muay Thai, my gym and several other San Shou gyms here in the US fight under Muay Thai rules regularly and win. There is no magic to Muay Thai. A better trained more experienced San Shou fighter will win. Deal with it.

I think the main issue is not SS versus MT.
But China versus Thailand.
The best SS fighters may be able to defeat the best in MT.
But the best in China versus the best in Thailand is a different story.
Watching the Chinese fight on a point basis gives some people the assumption that this is how SS fights.
There are a lot of people out there that haven't even heard of San Shou until this arcade.
And by just looking at how the chinese fight isn't impressive.
It should have been Turks or Russians I'll agree with Ikfmdc on that if it was SS versus MT.
But By just looking at the Chinese you have to understand why a lot of people view San Shou as being weak.

hmmm...you gotta ask yourself.who is the one who helped bring san shou into the spotlight?cung le!cung le wears muaythai shorts(with muaythai written on there)he trains in muaythai alot.he is also sponspored by "muaythai products".so ask yourself what would san shou do without muaythai and what would muaythai do without san shou.muaythai needs nothing from san shou.but take away the muaythai techiques from san shou?san shou would be a joke.

No one can ever answer this kind of question. I believe a good karate guy could defeat a wrestler in the right circumstance. I dont think the art matters as much as the fighter himself. A good reverse punchcould ko a bad double leg takedown. I think the real issue is who is influencing who and will san shou look more like Muay Thai or vice versa. If San shou begins to resemble muay thai and the chinese fight more muay thai style then that has to be a testament to the effectiveness and practicallity of MT. Peace.

Start??

They say they've been doing it that way forever, right?

Mr ikfmdc,
I think you are trying to find excuses first you try to accuse
the judeging then when you found out the judgeing was good.
You moved on to talking about the knees to the groin no matter
what you are trying to stir up. It's not even half as
bad as what CHINA pulled on the Thai's "litterally" throwing a fighter
out of the ring is and seriosly injuring his opponent is
totally disrespectful in any ring sport.
"WORDS CAN"T EVEN DISCRIBE"

By judeging the way your going about how Sanshou beat muay thai
I could tell you did not see the past fights that took place in
China. If you seen the first event between MT and SS you would be
dissapionted sanshou look like they didn't even know how to strike.
Second event same thing The KINGS OF SANDA are soppose to be the
ELITE"S of Sanshou. They best couldn't even finish there Thai opponents
off.
But I will admit muay thai lost but It's not a defeat reason why is
when I saw the fights the Thai's by far were dominating and chasing
and cutting the ring off on there opponents......

The King birthdate was worse the Chinese Kungfu were being used...

anybody wants a copy let me know-I feel everybody should see this;)
The proof is coming!!!!!!

Oh yeah Mark, sorry for the delay on the results on the other fights.
I didn't know the results either but I've heard Melchor Menor lost
dec, to Saksith Siprasert the # 7 rank Rajdamnern. I also heard that
the Thai's were very impressed with Melchor skills best coming from
America.Melchor was being very careful in the fight because Saksit
was trying to set up for the elbow knockout. Melchor throught the
most fight was not trying to trade becuase of Saksit excellent counters.
Causing Melchor to loose for not being active.

Mr ikfmdc,

I was there and the Chinese was no match for the Thais. Look at my name clearly, I am Chinese and I practised Chinese Kung Fu long before I did Muaythai. Why did I switch to Muaythai???? Because I saw my kungfu buddies destroyed by the Thais in the early seventies in Kuala Lumpur and in Bangkok. I am not a "traitor" but I am just being practical. Chines Kungfu is good for a lot of things but definately not for the ring. Sanshou is a recent creation of the Chinese for reasons which I would not like to get into. They have some great fighters but I still feel that it will be many years before the Chinese can match the Thais.

One must also be aware that the two styles have different rules and to compareis like comparing apples with oranges. One point I like to make is that the Thais (and the Chinese too) wore elbow pads!!! Why??? If the Thais had to fight Sanshou rules in China, the Chinese should fight full Thai rules in thailand (without elbow pads).

This is my opinion and I am sure you will come back with excuses but please bear in mind that I have vast experience in both so it is no point arguing your points with me. Like I say, I AM JUST BEING PRACTICAL

elbow pads????

Good to hear something first hand and with that back ground.

Thongsai bring a tape to Vagas for me :)
If not we'll have to figure out another way. :)

To "Alan Wong"

You write "I have vast experience in both so it is no point arguing your points with me". This is a pretty amusing statement. Care to elaborate on your "vast experience"?

There are plenty of people doing Chinese martial arts who simply can not fight, in fact our tradition has degenerated more than any other Asian tradition. It is sad. I don't doubt that you saw Chinese martial art people defeated, but it was because they were not trained correctly. I've seen some crappy, poorly trained Muay Thai fighters over the years, I attribute it to bad coaches and bad gyms, not to Muay Thai itself being bad

You write "Sanshou is a recent creation of the Chinese for reasons which I would not like to get into..." quite another funny statement! "Recent"? Is 1927 that recent? That is when the first San Shou program was established. In the 1920's Muay Thai was also going through a transition from traditional art to ring art. The first San Shou book was published in 1956. OK, San Shou was not developed by ancient Chinese cave men to fight wild bears but it isn't that recent a development.

Elbow pads? So if they had not worn elbow pads? Seems the issue is always elbows? Is Muay Thai so desperately in need of its elbows to win? Muay Thai has kicks, punches, knee, throws and kick catches, yet whenever they lose the elbow becomes an issue.

If you switched to Muay Thai because you like it, more power to you. But like many people who had poor instruction, you blame the art and not the poor instruction.

Thongsai, you demonstrate that you are an unwavering Muay Thai fan unable to give credit to other traditions. I merely pointed out that when the Thai fighters lost decisions in China, everyone screamed that it was bad judging. But when the Thai fighters win in Thailand with Thai judges, you obviously immediately take it at face value. So are you saying when the Thai wins the judging is fair, but if the Thai loses obviously it is bad judging? Or when the Chinese won, it was because he somehow used Muay Thai?

Have you seen the Draka matches? Where San Shou won 8 out of 9? What is your comment on this?

Have you seen the matches in American where San Shou men won Muay Thai matches? Were these fixes as well?

I have said already that the fighters that fought in Thailand were not King of San Da circuit champions. So your comment is meaningless. The amateurs they sent weren't even the ones that China sent to the world championships. Personally, if I were China I would have sent only the King of San Da fighters to fight. But then again, if I were Thailand I would have gotten the stadium champions to fight.

It does not seem to me that the best of each country fought.

To Dynamo, Mark L and any others interested

There are three sources of San Da fighters in China. There is the government sponsored sport programs which were originally all amateur and designed to produce athletes to compete in the world championships. This group is very point oriented, not power related. I personally do not like it, but then again if you can not stalk them down and do damage then their approach can win them a match

The second source, actually the oldest, is the military. For obvious reasons, military train in a much harder style with more power. However, often they can not compete in international events because they are soldiers. There can be complications. A few have fought in the King of San Da circuit, but not many. Once they retire, they often make very good coaches. In fact, my own coach is originally a military athlete

The third source, which sprung up around 1996, is the private club. The private club is often based or connected to some traditional style. It is more power based than the government programs, though not as rough or conditioned as the military program. Most of the current champions in the King of San Da circuit are from this source. In fact, the fact that the private club athlete beat the government program athlete was a big shock to the government in the first year of the king of San Da series.

I can see why perhaps military athletes were not sent to Thailand, but I do not understand why more of the private club athletes were not sent.

What have I said?? I was surprised there were elbow pads.
holy...


Anyway it would have been cool to see the fights.

Right on Wayne.

I heard some good words about Melchor...don't know him well at all but seemed very nice when we spoke. Way to go.

This arguement concerning Muay Thai and Shanshou have become quite heated which is normally the case when styles mixes with nationalistic pride are involved. I would like to share my humble opinion in the assessment of the subject concerned.
Let us start by looking at the historical development of both the fighting system .
We start with Muay Thai first. Muay Thai shares similar fighting tradition as that of Burma, cambodia and Laos. These were Indianised Kingdoms with strong influences from Hindhuism in their arts and crafts, philosophies, religion(subsequently converted to Therevada Buddhism) and system of Government. They shared similar fighting skill as oppose to that of Vietnam which was mainly Chinese based.
Before 1930s skill level among these countries were more or less equal. However the adoption of western safety rules such as the ring, gloves, weight division and rounds pushed Thai standard far above that of others. With all the safety rules in placed more professional participation was made possible which resulted in a boomed industry for many to earn a living. With more competition, skill level moved up dramatically. This was particularly so when western boxing was adopted and it let to improved skill in punching and guarding. No nation on earth in recent history has such wide spread experience like the Thais in sport of all round full contact fighting. The fighting skill has improved and transformed over the years. It is without exagerration to say that every Muay Thai technique works as the techniques were borned out of countless ring fight experiences over the years. The change in level of skill can be seen in old photographs, film footage and old fight manuals.
The other nations tried to copy the same safety measures which led to this boomed industry but with limited success due to colonialism, wars and in recent years socialism or communism which banned or strongly discouraged fighting sports.
Its was without valid reason for the Cambodian to claim Muay is theirs as the Khemers kingdom were older and they are indigenious in this part of the world. The Thai were relatively new comer from Southern China. But who actually developed it? Muay Thai is undisputely Thai as it is a product of Thai efforts, Thai experience,Thai development and Thai genius. I agreed that given the same environmnt the same mentioned nations could have developed their Muay to the same standard as the Thai but this did not happened and Muay Thai SHOULD remain Thai.

Now let us move to the historical development of Chinese Martial Arts. In mid 17th Century China was conquered and ruled by the Manchu(Qing dynasty), a foreign race, for more than 200 years until early 20th century. The Manchu, who were in minority that constituted less than 3% of the total population, instituted a policies of suppressing martial arts practices by encouraging the artistic element instesds of the fighting elements of the arts. Martial arts practices were generally discouraged or banned on certain periods. This is to preserve their position as the ruler by supressing militant spirit of the Han Chinese for fear of rebellion. During this period we saw a big decline in the effectiveness of Chinese Martial Arts as a fighting arts in the general population. Fortunately, the Triad,which was formed to overthrow the Manchu,was able to preserve fighting aspect of the arts among the small pool of its members.
During the Nationalistic period(1911-1949) Chinese Martial Arts enjoyed a brief revival but was surpressed again when the communists took over in 1949. From 1949 to early 1980 fighting sports including boxing were banned. It only started to liberalise in early 80s as China gratually opened its door to the outside world and influences.
Since the liberalisation, fighting aspect of Chinese Martial Arts (shanshou/Shanda) has picked up at an amazing rate. These are my personal encounters.
In late 1980s China only took part in form (pattern) events in the World Wu Shu meet. They did not participate in Sanda(Lei Tai) event as they were not readied.
In 1991 during my long travel in China,I trainned a grouped of young villages in Muay Thai for two months before putted them against the best Sanda group from nearby town. With only two months training ( two and a half hours, 7 day week)we still able to emerge as winner with 3 wins and 2 lost.
In end 1993 I was again in China trying to arrange an International mixed Martial Arts tournament but unable to recruit fighters due to lack of response.The point I am trying to make here is the general low standard in China then.
In around 10 years, the standard has risen to such that they were able to beat Korean, Japanese, American (3 times)and Thai was beyond my belief. Never mind the judges were biased and the rules favoured them. To me the Chinese fighters being able to survive first few rounds without being knocked out by top rated Thai had far exceeded my expectation. This time round in Kings Birthday, I know the Thai will pit their best to reclaim Muay Thai's supremacy as an all round full contact fighting sport. I actually expected all five KO with some in the early rounds but that did not happened. We have to give credit to them, as in such a short space of time they have come a long way.
As a comparison the west started doing Kickboxing in the late 60s and early 70s. With the benefit of the their own indigenious boxing skill, not many western fighters, with exception of VERY selected FEW, able to handle 2nd rated or 3rd rated Thai fighters in early 80s. I remember during that period a few Cambodian refugees who was unrated in Thailand was able to dominate national titles as well as European title in Europe. Many of so called world champoins in US lost to low rated Thai and some western "legend" refused to fight in Thailand when invited. Today of course is a different picture . The west has come a long way with more experience and better exposore over the years. Some of the top fighters are able to face the Thai toe to toe without being intimidated.

In conclusion where do we go from here with the Chinese Sanda. As at now their standard still fall short when comparing to top Muay Thai fighters, Thai as well as non-Thai. But we know that they will developed in an amazing pace like most things the Chinese do today. I believe they will provide a credible competition in not too distance a future. I believe competition will help to push up overall standard and in addition it adds more variety and excitement to the full contact fight scene. With these I would like to say WELCOME!

"Seems the issue is always elbows?"

Without getting involved in the argument of thai v others, i really want to point out that thai boxing has elbows, and when you take them away it's not really Muaythai.
Taking the elbow away interfers with so much of the rest of it, that it even alters the argument of comparison.
If you stopped heading in soccer, you would not have crosses, which would loose the need for wingers, which would need different formations etc... it's the same thing.

I should not have said "vast experience" but rather lots of experience. San Da and Sanshou by direct translation means the same thing "Free fighting" or free style or just free sparing. So if you want to argue about how long San Da or Sanshou had been around, well it is certainly as old as the language itself. As for my experience, I studied Chinese martial arts since I was 8 yrs old and I am now 42. As for San Da and Sanshou, I was trained in something similar since I was 12. I love my Chinese martial arts and i still practise it regularly and I also find myself using the free sparring techniques I learnt in Chinese MA in my Muaythai training. I have never mentioned that San Da and Sanshou is useless, however all I am saying is that Sanshou as a ring sport is a recent creation. All this arguments are absolutely useless as all martial arts has their own application and methods. Given more time and experience I have no doubt that San da and Sanshou will flourish against Muaythai and right now is just the beginning. Your point is correct, but I am not blaming the style but just the evolution. All I am saying is the style of fighting is just suitable for other application not necessarily ring fighting. Colin brought up a good point about the elbows.

Colin, I disagree with your term 'soccer' I think it is more properly refered to as 'football'.

TP-lots of info there...

I really enjoyed reading that.

I wrote a really long post but...I though I better not offend to many...

Hi Mark L,

Please go ahead to give your view without restriction and allow us the priviledge to enjoy it. I shall be waiting eagerly for your view.

Nobody.
Football it is... but elswere they know it as soccer (it IS football though)

ps. My team just dicked Manchester United (again) at Old Trafford today. I live in Manchester, it's a pleasure to hear the griping :)

not much of the world calls it soccer...mostly N. America...doing there own think again. :)

lkfmdc - dude, like always you cannot accept that Muay Thai kicked your San Shou friend's asses. It's plain and simple. I would say that 4 to 1 is a decent ass kicking. As I live in Bangkok I saw these fights as did I see the fights in China. On both occasions the Chinese lacked sufficient power and ran the majority of the time. Any idiot knows that if you put a rank amateur fighter against someone who is a pro, 99% of the time the pro will win. Well, if the Chinese or Thai's fight we need to assume that the fights are evenly matched and the judging will be fair. Seems to me that the Chinese never look dominant and the Thai's do. This is not a biased opinion, this is what I and many others have seen. Why is it you cannot accept this? And don't tell me your bullshit about how San Shou kicks people's ass all over the world. Accept it, deal with it, move one and maybe start training in Muay Thai yourself and then you will become enlightened grasshopper.

'Cant we all just get along' ......Rodney King on the LA riots.

Well said Muay thai news, and Alan Wong,

Okay Mr ikfmdc, I'm not affraid to admit muay thai lost in China
I except the fact-EVERYBODY MUAY THAI LOST TO SANSHOU.

Then I'm going ask you this why is it everytime when muay thai
and Sanshou have meetings muay thai always have to go around there rules.
Even in Thailand itself if Sanshou is so Imfamous they would
go to Thailand and fight the Thai rules. The Thai's fought
in Draka and Sanshou in there rules.

You ask everybody why did the Thais did not send there champs
how are you going to ask for the Thai Champs. When Chinese
best KING OF SANDA the "elites" cant even take our B-class
fighter's.
About the Sanshou fighters that fought the Thai's I garanteed you
these guys would probably beat your KINGS OF SANDA guys.
These Chinese boxers are probably Chinese "secret weapon" that they
hand picked come on. This is CHINA we are talking about there not stupid
they had something planned but it did not work.

hehe

At times I really have to wonder if you guys have reading comprehension problems? I've stated the same things over and over again and some of you simply can't get it. For example

1. The guys sent to Thailand to fight were NOT, repeat NOT, as in they weren't, as in they aint, etc King of San Da pro guys. They were amateurs, and apparently not amateurs good enough to be sent to the world championships. I have said I have no idea why China sent these guys to Thailand to fight but I can tell you that they were not the "A" guys. Yet one won so clearly the Thai judges gave it to him apparently. I should dig up all your ridiculous quotes like how when it happens in Thailand all the Chinese are going to get KO'd. Guys like "Muay Thai news" can't even accept the losses in China, like in the first event where the Thai fighters were thrown all over the place!

2. Draka is a mix of throws AND knees, so only the elbow is an issue. So again I ask, is Muay Thai only good when it can elbow

I HAVE VIDEO OF THE DRAKA FIGHTS AND DUDES, the Muay Thai fightes LOST BIG TIME

If you think or claim that Thailand is somehow above trickery, remember that three separate times they invited teams from Taiwan, Hong Kong and China to fight, originally telling them they could throw all they wanted. Only once they arrived in Thailand did they inform the Chinese teams that they would have to follow Muay Thai rules, thus certain throws would not be allowed

There was apparently an issue even this time!!! Despite the fact that it had been widely discussed and supposedly agreed upon well in advance, the Chinese had to press the night before to be sure they could use all their throws

3. What about when San Shou fighters fight under Muay Thai's own rules, without the throws, and still win? I've posted the pics and results before. Oh, but when Muay Thai guys have a loss, you always retreat to the poor excuse that they weren't top guys.

The fact remains, San Shou won the series 2 events to 1. YOu can try to make excuses for the losses in China, you can gloat all you want about winning in Thailand, even when it was not a shut out nor all KO's like you all were so sure it was going to be, you can pound your chests and believe that Muay Thai is the "best" but it won't change the fact that since the South East Asian Open events in the 1980's Chinese fighters have beaten Muay Thai fighters, and now fighters trained in San Shou are posing a threat to Muay Thai's claim to be the "best"

You can rattle your sabres all you want, but it is only a matter of time until wins over Muay Thai mount to a point that you can't deny that Muay Thai is just ONE approach to fighting, not THE approach

I think many can give examples and those can be interpreted many ways especially since its only a part of the puzzle. How about adressing some of what was said?

Mark L, I've addressed most if not all of what is said, people just like the answers. Even though the Thailand event resulted in a "win" for Muay Thai, the other two events were "wins" for San Shou, so why all the gloating and carrying on? Is Muay Thai strong and good? OF COURSE IT IS. I just can't stand the zombie mentality, like the Brazilian Jiu Jitsu zombies. This overwhelming, pathelogical, obsessive need to believe that Muay Thai is "best" and to try and explain away any time a Muay Thai fighter has a loss

Niether myself not ANY san Shou person started a thread here to "gloat" after the first or second event. Instead, you saw a lot of Muay Thai people complaining and carrying on about how they weren't real wins and trying to tear down San Shou. And when a San Shou fighter even wins in Thailand, the zombie mentality is that "oh, he must have used Muay Thai to win". My community is sick and tired of hearing the Muay Thai people claim everything in the sun was created by them... get over it.

As long as human beings have two arms with joints called elbows, two legs with joints called knees, the ability to ball up their fists and a desire to smack eachother around then they will develop to a certain degree the same sorts of techniques. Muay Thai didn't invent knee strikes and leg kicks anymore than San Shou invented throws.

Ignorance is bliss to the fanatic, ignorant of the facts they can go on believing that everyone is simply copying their favorit art and they can believe in the "unbeatableness" of that art. But the idea that a San Shou person can not beat a Muay Thai person is no more real than the idea of chi blasts that blow chickens up at 30 yards

So you are saying that MuayThai moves are effective and that though they did not event the moves everyone will use simlar ones cause they are the ones that work though they won't be copying and will simply come up with themselves or had already been using the same moves from way back?

-your second last paragraph

why not? you've basically said the same thing about the punches in muaythai.
i tried to make the point about the thais calling the uppercut an uppercut and a hook a hook instead of using thai terms. you basically told me that these were always in the thai arsenal but the western terminology was more popular. thats how you justified the thais using these terms.
and think about it mark. how many ways can you knee or elbow somebody? i know the thais have made a science of it,more so than anyones else but how hard would it be to stumble on it?
from what you've said it wasn't hard for the thais to stumble on to the hook and uppercut with know western influence.

whats your point?

did I say this had be? couldn't be? shouldn't be? was wrong? was right?

I just asked a question.

I have said that some MuayThai fighters use western style punches(more outside of Thailand than inside). Terminology-I don't see the relavance.

Every country and fighting style has punches do they come from boxing?

There is a different style of punching in MuayThai.

I think good punchers using boxing style punches reminded the Thais about the 'lesser' of their weapons.

I think that those few brought the awareness back and did help improve the Thais hands.

But there is a very different style between tipical boxing punches and traditional MuayThai punches. Some use both, some use more of one.

I trained MuayThai for a long time and I trained boxing for awhile. I also trained in Thailand and after all that I can say there is a vast different way in traditional MuayThai punching as in western boxing.

But I am not saying boxing hasn't had its effects on some fighters and some gyms.

But I think this is another topic.

This was all just reporting on the events and commenting on Thai judging untill Nong-O got it going. :) hehe

Yeah, sorry about that!

Who has a zombie approach. What I think is that the Chinese lost in Thailand and although they were declared the winners in China, they were on the worst end of the beating. Ok, I'll give you that the bottom line is that in China the Chinese were declared the winners. I have no qualms about saying that there are some Chinese who are good fighters however what my point is that on the whole, the Thai's are better. It has nothing to do with me being pro-Thai or whatever. They have proved themselves to be better in stand-up fighting than most other 'styles' as they win the majority of the time. This is an age-old arguement of whose style is better and frankly, I think Muay Thai is better than San Shou. Sorry if that hurts you lkfmdc. I don't think the Thai's think that everything under the sun comes from Muay Thai. On the contrary I believe it is the Chinese who feel this way. Whether I punch you with a Muay Thai hook or a San Shou hook doesn't matter....what matters is that if I throw the hook and it connects it will have the desired effect. Perhaps it is that I prefer the Thai mentality about fighting over the Chinese. In any case, the Chinese lost this go round and with the exception of one fight, they did indeed get their butts kicked from pillar to post. 2 KO's and 2 decision ass whuppins is a pretty demonstrable showing wouldn't you think lkfmdc? And I also saw the fights from China as they happened and can tell you that in my opinion the Thai's didn't come close to getting their tails kicked, nor did the run as the Chinese seem to like to do. As far as the elbows, a bare elbow will do a hell alot more damage than a padded one, or do you disagree with this also lkfmdc?

Mark L,
I can not tell you how many times I've heard people say "San Shou is just Muay thai with some wrestling". Some aspects of San Shou may be like Muay Thai. We may leg kick, we may have some ways of catching a kick similar. With gloves on, a lot of the hand techniques are going to look like Western boxing. But leg kicking and kick catching wasn't somehow "stolen" from Muay Thai.

When Al Loriaux was the first American to win a silver medal for the US in San Shou competition, some jackasses called him a Muay Thai fighter. Just pure ignorance as Al is a student of Jason Yee, that is where all his training came from. And Jason Yee was trained in China, has NOT trained in Muay Thai

It is just as stupid as the constant reference to the fact Cung Le wore shorts produced by "Muay Thai products" when that company sponsored him. As if the simple fact that a pair of shorts say "Muay Thai" somewhere on them makes someone a Muay Thai fighter? I seriously wonder why anyone would think that Cung Le fights like a Muay Thai fighter when his principle strength is his throws and his two favorite kicks are side kick and ax kick?

Are Muay Thai fighters from Thailand tough? OF COURSE THEY ARE. They are also full time professional fighters. Far too much of Muay Thai's "reputation" comes from matches where a very experienced Muay Thai fighter was matched against a far less experienced fighter. Funny how people forget when the Thais have lost. I once posted some pics of a Chinese fighter who was called the "saint of Penang" who beat a Thai fighter in a match with elbows, without elbow pads, knees AND throws in Singapore. He was then chellenged to fight in Thailand under Thai rules (ie no throws) and fought his opponent to a DRAW. In the South East Asian Cup, another fairly even rule event (elbows were legal the first 4 years) the results were pretty much 50/50. San Francisco resident Tat Mau Wong beat a number of Thai fighters in these events. A Chan Sau Chung student KO'd a Thai fighter in the Hong Kong Open with a throw. The list goes on but you guys always harp only when the Thai wins. I remember someone on here talking about when Bunkerd Fairtex beat a San Shou fighter in Hawaii. Fairtex says Bunkerd has over 200 fights. The Chinese fighter had around 20 at the time, about half in amateur matches with gear. But the win was held up as yet again proof of the ultimate Muay Thai art...

Yes, you're a zombie if you only want to believe the wins and not accept the losses...

we're all zombis if we believe a couple examples here and there to be the whole picture

Everyone,

Stop bitching and get back to training!

Peace,
Grumpy

smile grumpy ;)

Mark L,
I have never said that San Shou is magic and will win all the time, I have never said that Muay Thai is not good, I HAVE said I personally prefer the more power based flavor of San Shou and dislike the point style many of the Chinese athletes employ, I have also said in the past that the Chinese are capable of manipulation. But I am still going to respond negatively to people who want to push the Muay Thai is "best" thing. I am still going to respond negatively to people who always want to play down a San Shou victory.

When San Shou fighters like Yousef Taghizadeh, Marvin Perry and Richard Acosta win their Muay Thai matches you hear these guys always having to pipe up and say that the Muay Thai fighters they beat were not "the best". So I wonder if "real" Muay Thai means ONLY the pro fighters in Thailand? And if an amateur like Richard Acosta with around 7 fights beats another amateur with around 15 fights, that's two guys of roughly equal level. An amateur with 7 fights isn't going to beat Bunkerd with 200 plus fights, so I guess because he couldn't beat Bunkerd that proves that Muay thai is best? OH PLEASE

Hi Kirk,
Muay Thai punches and hand guard were adaptation of western boxing punching technique. It had been modified to suit their kicks, knees and elbows combo. Its also adapted to suit Muay Thai way of judging. It developed into more power based as judges seldom score on punches unless it staggered or knocked down the opponent. The flashy footwork in Boxing also been discarded as it was a weakness to leg kick which could swept the opponent off the floor easily. The bob, weave and dart were modified to limited use as they open up the lower half of the body for attck.
There is nothing wrong to learn and adapt from others. It happens all the time in sports, science and technologies. When Muay Thai became a boomed industry in the 30s, all that the fighters wanted was to win and increase their rating which would result in higher earning. No body really cared where the techniques originated as long as it helped them to win. If any new effective technique were to developed today, be it American, Indian or Eskimo, Muay Thai fighters would adapt it for their own benefit.
After Muay Thai developed into a professional sport, there is one noticeable change which some of us in this discussion can learn from. The different traditional styles among Muay Thai became blurred or disappeared as every style tried to learn from each other in order to find the best way to win in fights. Today, if you were going round Thailand, thumping your chest and saying " I am from Kxxxxx style, we are the best style in KNOCK DOWN and KNOCK OUT fight"( sound familier? Mark Hampton of NZ), you probably will receive a puzzled and incomprehensible look.
By the same token, to be fair, one should not penalise Sanda for fighting like Muay Thai. All sports learn from one another be it swimming or soccer(I got it right, Collin H and NO arguement please!) or others. If we look further back, all fighting styles have learnt from from one another in the course of historical interaction be it Karate(China) , Tae Kwan Do(Japan), Judo(China thru, Jujitsu), Chinese Martial Arts (India) or Muay Thai (India).

Geez-I saw this post had 90 responses and thought it'd have some actual reporting on the fights, instead it turned into another round of Sanshou vs. Muaythai.

TP some great points...

Bryan-Nong-O started it :P

Yes Mark L , hope to see some pesce on earth especially after the world has just sorted out Osama. More so we are near the festive season of Ramandan, Christmas, New Year as well as Chinese New Year.
Martial Arts styles will no doubt move towards the direction like that of boxing , wrestling or even sport like Tennis. Can one imagine hearing " My KXXXX style of tennis originated from grand master Oxxxx has the best tennis technique in the world." Differentiation in future will more likely to be rules based like that of wrestling or football where you have the American Football, Assuie rule or English Football ( wonder why they it call Rugby, and call soccer football. I am kind of confused but don't any one starts a war on this).
Try looking at martial art styles as a kind of branding where cumsumers(=practionaers) are constantly been brainwashed to stay loyal to a particular brand like a merchandise(=style); Or a religion with constant indoctrination that "ours" is THE only truth.
Cheers.

tp,
yes some great points indeed.
you see, many months before you came on here, we had a discussion about kickboxing borrowing the thai style roundhouse,teep, and leg kicks.
some people didn't like this because they thought maybe people who didn't know any better might think kickboxing developed these kicks and not muaythai.they wanted to give credit where credit was do.
i simply said that muaythai has borrowed concepts as well as techniques from other fighting sports but still call it muaythai and don't give actual credit to these other sport(s).
of course this wasn't the case.
i was watching a few of ramba's fights, and during the fight i see ramba throwing some very nice hooks and uppercuts.
nothing wrong with that. but what caught my attention was that the thai commentators were referring to these punches with western names rather than thai names. i used this to prove that boxing has influenced the sport enough for the commentators and spectators to recognize these western terms that obviously came from western boxing.
i was told these always were part of muayathi, and that the thais just do with their language.
i couldn't understand why certain techniques of thai origins,say the teep for instance had kept it's thai name but these supposed thai techniques, the hook and uppercut, were given western names.
the point i was trying to make was that you can not criticize one sport for borrowing from another, when your sport has done the very same thing.
but some how muaythai was justified.

Anyone know where to get the REAL results???

Hah, I knew it just like I said the Chinese did send there best
and got stomped.....

Neungtrakan vs Wan Yabao 75kg
Last year Wan Yabao has beat the KING of SANDA
"LIU HAILONG" (MUAY THAI CONQURER) this is the guy who threw
the thai kid out of the ring!!!!
Neungtrakan won by ko to WAN YABAO the guy that beat the KING of SANDA
LIU HAILONG.

get the video and info at the "KUNGU WEBSITE" -http://members.tripod.com/~crane69/index6p.htm

ENJOY

Another report for those interested. And before certain people chime in saying the writer is biased, his previous article was heavily pro San Shou
so he writes in an emotive way from both sides of the fence if you like. I will make no comment on the authors summary however he does raise a few interesting points that i was unaware of and he is certainly familar with and knowledgeable of both the fight game and the fighters in question: - it appears in previous matches that knees and elbows were not awarded points in
the previous matches - the Chinese fighters appear to be very well known and with previous wins over well credentailed San Shou opponents so they are not the rank amateurs we have been led to believe. - There is only one documented groin kick, from reading previous judgements (i will not call them reports as the people in question have not seen the fights) you could gain the impression that there was a flurry of groin shots. This appears to be untrue. I would also make the point that in the previous bout a fighter was thrown out of the ring whilst he was receiving instructions from the referee so for my money this is extremely
bad sportsmanship - so much so that in any form of ring art whether it be boxing, judo, Muay Thai, etc. this would result in instant disqualification and sanctioning of the fighter. This did not happen. - the writer raises interesting fights about the one Chinese win, noting that it occurred after the event had been decided and Longtakan seems to fight in a completely stupid
manner (only kicking with one leg). The writer draws the inference that this a gimme win which is so the Chinese can save some face. Noone is probably in a 100% position to state outright whether this is so, only the fighters themselves know whether they gave it their all however many people have stated that they beleived the Thai should have got the decision - who knows. It is
noted that the Chinese in question was in Thailand training three months prior to the fightwhich raises very interesting questions.
Did he feel the training there is better than what he could receive in China? "The reader must be wondering why this report
came somewhat late. Well, that's because I was in Thailand on Dec 5th to catch the latest Muaythai Vs Sanda Challenge, and only came back yesterday. And after seeing how Sanda's best of the best fought against the Thais, I'm left without a doubt on who is the true King of the Ring. Chinese Sanda's winning streak up till Sep 23rd had given its fighters illusions of grandeur that
have left many observers, including myself, fooled about how efficient it has become. But on Dec 5th, Sanda's improvements in recent years proved to be totally irrelevant against the might of Muaythai. At Senam Luang near the Grand Palace in Bangkok, in front of thousands of Thai spectators, the Thai fighters, no longer underestimating their opponents this time, brutally punished
the Chinese for daring to defeat their national martial sport. And what better day to do so then on their National Day, on the 74th birthday of His Majesty. They crushed the Chinese with a 4 to 1 victory. And the worst part for the Chinese is its only win was a giveaway from the Thais to let them save some face. The Chinese can be said to have been fully annihillated that night in
Bangkok. Incidentally, while in Thailand I asked a friend to record the event for me on videotape, which I will convert into VCD format very soon. If the reader doubts my words, he or she can always order them from me later and find out whether I speak the truth or not. For all fans of ring sports it is a VCD worth collecting, to be watched & pondered over for a long time
to come.

Now for the fight reports: The 1st bout is the 56kg category fight between Zhou Yongjin, a fresh national Sanda runner-up & Pawaijun Yodongsong, a young 17 yr old fighter. Zhou is a fighter with only 2 techniques - the push kick and
charging waist grab. In the 1st round Zhou started impressively by succeeding in lifting Pawaijun up and slamming him to the canvas 3 times, whereas Pawaijun seem not warmed up yet to this kind of Sanda tatics. But as these kind of throws consume a lot of physical strength, Zhou became more and more exhausted further into the bout. He became so tired that even his push kick is gone & he can only try to shoot in for the grab. Pawaijun was prepared for this. Everytime Zhou try to grab he will crank his neck to foil him. He landed many powerful knees on Zhou's body & face, and also low kicks to his legs. In the 5th and final round Zhou made a final attempt at fighting back, throwing Pawaijun 2 times, but it was too late - the battered Zhou had already lost the bout on points. The 2nd bout is the 60kg category fight between Wang Jingfeng, the "Divine Hand of
Yanshan" and Atachai Pasanlancha, a champion with powerful punches & kicks. The Divine Hand proved to be quite mundane after all. In the 1st round Wang could still run around throwing side kicks & flick kicks, but Atachai's kept kicking his inner thigh, which obviously had a painful effect which showed on Wang's face. Sure enough, only 2nd round into the fight Wang, covering his head, was cornered and Atachai floored him with one knee and several killer body punches

(Cont.)

cont.)

into his ribs, effecting a KO.

The 3rd bout is the 65kg category fight between Mongolian Sanda World Champion & this year's Sanda King hopeful, Geriletu, the "Grassland Eagle" and Yudtacha Seeyudtong, a fighter with rapid hand & legs. Just 1st round into the bout Geriletu was overwhelmed by Yudtacha's fierce combos, which left him no choice but to desperately try to grab him & fall to the canvas together. The rest of the bout Yudtacha landed so many blows to the Mongolian that it looked more like a Muaythai workshop. Inner thigh, outer thigh, left kick, right kick, punches, an elbow to his face.. yes, Geriletu took all these. He was also knocked down by a right cross to his jaw in the middle of the match & only got up on the
8th count. He managed to sweep/throw Yudtacha to the ground a few times but that was about it. Dazed & heavily injured, at the end of the bout he wobbled and could hardly stand properly. He kept muttering to himself that he had never experienced such a heavy beating before. Mind you, he is one of the best Sanda fighters in the world. Though he is tough enough to take all the punishment he is still as helpless as a child in front of Muaythai's best. With this victory the Thais have already won this Challenge.

The 4th bout is the 70kg category fight between Wang Sanzhen, another fresh Sanda star who spent 3 months in Bangkok learning Muaythai, and Longtakan Bamongpor. This is the giveaway match. As the Thais have already won, I suspect that Longtakan has been asked to lose the bout beforehand as he fought in a totally irrational manner. Throughout the bout Longtakan used only his right leg, and only kicked Wang on his lead side at his mid-section, as if inviting him to grab his leg. Of course Wang took full advantage of this "present" and threw his opponent around. And the punches that Longtakan threw
were all half hearted as compared to Wang, who fought more like a Muaythai fighter than a Sanda fighter. The masses were quiet as Longtakan stood with a blank expression at the end of the bout.
Only the Chinese supporters were jubilating their only "victory", of course.

The 5th and last bout is the 75kg category fight. The Chinese side is represented by Sanda World Champion & Sanda King hopeful, Wan Yubao, the "White Brow Vigilante" who incidentally defeated last year's King of Sanda, Liu Hailong. As some of you may remember, Liu is the supposed "Conquerer of Muaythai" at Guangzhou on Sep 23rd. Wan fought Koontek Songpeipasek, another firece fighter who pummeled him with rapid combos. Wan's techniques, especially his double flick kicks, seemed too fancy and had no effect on Koontek. He also took an accidental kick to the groin area which knocked the spirit out of him. And as expected, he continued to be hit and in the second round got floored by a driving knee to his solar plexus. Seeing that Wan was unable to continue, the Chinese coach threw in the towel, effecting a TKO for Koontek. So the final result is 4 : 1 in favor to
the Thais.


Wan Yubao, perhaps better than Liu Hailong, can be called the best of the best in Sanda. Yet like Geriletu, he was well outclassed by Thai fighters who were well-prepared for them this time. We don't even have to talk about the rest of the Sanda team. Only now have the Sanda fighters tasted complete defeat. After seeing with my own eyes I feel that Sanda's supposed tremendous improvements are
exagerated & it was obvious they still had a long way to go before they can ever come close to being an equal of Muaythai. I also remembered that in the last challenge in Guangzhou the knees & elbows that the Thais landed on the Chinese did not count for points, which was unfair & resulted in their points being significantly reduced. This time in Bangkok they counted these sucessful hits. However, except for the 1st & 4th bout, the Thais won so convincingly that points didn't really mean much. As far as I can see, Muaythai fighters have learned their lesson and seen through all of Sanda's tactics.
From now on, there's no way Chinese Sanda can gain any upper hand from the Thais. Unless Sanda can come up with something new & effective, there's no other way for them to match Muaythai except to improve their conditioning, stamina and striking power the old fashioned way - through ancient CMA methods which may be vague; or simply learn as much as they can from the Thais. I do not think
this loss is a set back to the progress of Chinese Martial Science, but rather it is a loud wake up call and another overdued opportunity for the Chinese Sanda advocates to learn from their weaknesses.
They can beat every other martial art/sport in the ring but they cannot beat the King, the ultimate striking art which is Muaythai, unless they adopt Muaythai! The Dutch Muaythai fighters, who have beat the Thais on numberous occasions through the years, are good examples of this fact. Of course, most Chinese are too proud to follow in the Dutch's footsteps. But it is the Thais who have the last laugh, as I have said in the past. For the Muay Thai Vs Kung Fu challenge, this episode proves that history & destiny continue to be on the side of the Thais. The Chinese have their work all cut out for them..

more of interest

The person who runs the page in question "Crane6" is a notorious Muay Thai jock rider, as has been discussed here to death many times before. But this time his report is an outrage, an unacceptable amout of BS, pure fabrications!! Is he on drugs?

1. 56kg Zhou Yongjin = he calls a "national Sanda runner-up". First, the nationals are the AMATEUR competitions with equipment (head gear and shin guards) not the professional "King of San Da" circuit. Second, "runner-up" is an interesting title for a fighter who took THIRD in a tournament where there isn't even a fight off for fourth (ie there is 1st, 2nd and TWO thirds)

2. 65kg Mongolian Geriletu is NOT, repeat NOT a world champion. He did not even compete in either the 1999 or 2001 world championships. He is the champion of the province of inner Mongolia. Calling him a "Sanda King hopeful" obscures the fact he won some early round matches in the professional circuit but didn't live up to expectations and lost the big fights. He is a fighter that Cung Le literally destroyed in an event in Hawaii. So much for calling him "one of the best Sanda fighters in the world" LOL!

3. I'd like to see some evidence that the Chinese fighter spent "3 months in Bangkok learning Muaythai", especially considering hom many errors are already in Crane69's report at this point

Of course, the assertion that the Thai fighter gave the win to his Chinese opponent can obviously not be proven, it is Crane69's opinion, which is suspect increasingly

4. I suppose after you have lied so much, why not lie some more? Wan Yubao didn't win a world title either! In 1999 a Chinese fighter won a silver in the 75 KG category, and that fighter was NOT Wan Yubao. Where the hell is he getting his information? It is easily checked at the Chinese Wushu Association and IWUF sites???

5. The claim that "the knees & elbows that the Thais landed on the Chinese did not count for points" is also complete crap. They published the rules on the Chinese Wushu Association page and announced them at the matches. Elbows were worth ONE POINT like punches and knees were worth TWO POINTS like kicks

Ever since Crane69 set up his page, people knew he was a jerk, but these fabrications are ridiculous, calling people world champions when they are NOT! Claiming things happened that didn't!

Sorry, I know you want to believe this, but the fact remains that if you check sinowushu.com and can read Chinese you can read the results of every world san shou championships and you can see that the claim that two of these fighters were world champions is BULLSHIT

Actually, so I am 100% correct I just checked the results of 1999 and found otu that China won the silver at 70 KG. In 1999 the 75 KG was

1.Ojaghi Housain, Iran

2.Rassaf Mekhtiyen, AZE

3.Stenmam Daniel, Sweden

Vjachesl Shapovalov, Belarus

NO Wan Yubao!!

And in 2001 the division was won by Russia, followed by Brazil, Japan and Belarus. Again NO Wan Yubao

I don't even want to read your crap...I'm sorry but how it comes across is one thing now you are saying he is lieing and not thats his info is not correct.

I don't think "I suppose after you have lied so much, why not lie some more" is acceptable. I think thats rude and goes beyond discussion or debate.

Someone is either a world champion or they are NOT

It isn't something you can argue about, it is a FACT

1st world championship 1991 Beijing
2nd world championship 1993 Kuala Lumpur
3rd world Championship 1995 Baltimore MD
4th world championship 1997 Rome, Italy
5th world championship 1999 Hong Kong
6th world championship 2001 Yrevan, Armenia

If you didn't fight in these events and win then you are NOT a world champion. He calls them world champions when they did not fight in the world championships and win

The information is so easily available, he MUST be lying intentionally to post som much incorrect information, in the past I criticized his descriptions as being biased, but I didn't think he would manipulate FACTS

Now he is claiming that people won titles they have NEVER HELD

Mr ikfmdc,
I got this info from the crane-dude so I don't know how accurate
it is sorry geez bro!!!!
But alot of peolple saw the fights some live some on tv so you can't go wrong there eveybody says the same thing a ass woopen is a ass woopen.
I'm willing to give you a free copy of the fights when I get it

thongsai

please understand that I am upset but not at you and understand why I am upset

If you want to say you don't like the style of flavor of San Da, that is an opinion

If you think a guy won or lost, you can debate it

If you want to write on a web page taht you think someone got their ass kicked, you can do that, it is still an opinion

You can not call someone a world champion that does not hold the title. What if someone called a fighter a Lumpinee champion who had never fought in Lumpinee? People would call it crap and be upset about it. It is disrespectful to the real champions

What is worse is that since many don't know San Da, they take whatever Crane69 writes as accurate. So people will now say that two world champions got beaten, which is not accurate. Once I see the tape I may indeed say, you know, those guys lost real bad, but I still won't call them world champions when they are not!

mr ikfmdc,
you no what I understand your frustation I appologize deeply
by all meens from my heart. I have nothing against you just to clear
things up. If we happened to meet one day I would like to buy
you a beer:)

Sorry about saying Sanshou got there ass wooped I shouldn't have
said that.

I would like to say this with the little time Sanshou had
they progressed really quik.
If the Sanshou guys were ametuer like you say man these brothers were
tough as nails!!!!

About the other stuff you mention about how muay thai has lost in Draka ect
I know I'm not denyle because I saw the fights too.

My view on the whole muay thai in Draka and Sanshou it's just amazeing to
me. Because I like how muay thai does "allright" in forien grounds
fighting in a whole different rules and style. Rarely you see other
arts do what Thai's do.......

My point has never been to insult Muay Thai, we fight under it's rules, think it has a lot in common with what we do, I have Muay Thai coaches who are dear friends, I even have promoted Muay Thai as a sport over what I consider boring American style

I just can't understand why San Shou/San Da can not get a little respect? When there were two wins in China, I didn't post a "gloat"... I responded to people who posted saying there was no way San Shou could have won, etc...

I have seen clips of the fights in China, and I know how the Chinese fight so when people describe the fights I can say "well, you may not have liked their strategy but they probably won on points". Haven't seen the matches from Thailand yet, as far as I know they indeed got their "asses kicked" and if they did, those guys lost and the Thai guys won. But that being said, the event still doesn't mean that San Shou doesn't deserve respect and I'll still scream if anyone claims credentials about the fighters which aren't true.

Crane69's description claims the best of San Da lost, thus San Da is not match for Muay Thai. I reject it not only because a few matches are definitive but of course also because when he is claiming these guys are the "best" he is distorting the truth. The first guy took THIRD in amateur competition, so you can't say he is the best, there are at least two better guys. He calls two other guys world champions when they do not hold that title. To beat a world champion WOULD be an accomplishment, of course, but these guys weren't so whatver tehe quality of the win, it doesn't have the significance that Crane69 attributes to it

ok-here are some results that i saw.sorry i cant understand thai so here is what i saw.
1.Negrakuarn(sp?) wins over hassan ettaki(elbow in 1st round)
2.bald black guy wins over erickson(??)ok in 1st round
3.????(migual?) wins over japanese(dec.)
4.jwp wins over thai(dec.)
5.Negrakuarn wins over bald black guy(dec.)
6.jwp wins over migual(?)-dec.
then the tape ends.wish i could understand thai.

It was really pleasant to read the last two postings by ikfmdc and thongsai. After all we are both in the same sport excepts that the rules are different.
Mind you, all round full contact combat sport is still a minority sport in the world sporting arena. The development of Sanda in China is healthy for the sport. Imagine we have addition of one-fifth of the world population participating in a sport that we are so passionnately in love with. Sanda should be encouraged but not contained in its further development especially in the international scene. It will help all full contact combat to be noticed, popularised and respectable to the extend, hopefully, in future it is a minority sport no more.
Cheers.

I have no problems with disputing info. I have a problem with calling someone a lier.

Just 'cause that is the info ones has doesn't mean they are intentially tekking untruths.

Intention makes something a lie not the truth or false hood.

Dispute info all you want but saying someone is lieing is pretty bad in my books.

Ok I am back, After reading all the stuff I gotta say


ALLTHROUGH SS PROGRESSED A LOT IT WILL NEVER COMPARE TO MT

lkmdfc do you know the thais best?

Well if you do , do you think that the chinas kings of Sanda could beat them?

Thongsai I know you trying to be nice to the guy , but remmember this is the guy that kept making excuses for the chinese about the groing shots.
Well poor Sanda guys they only lost because they got cracked in the nuts otherwise they would kill the Thais.
Lkmdfc you are full of S... you say the thais are calling the chinese champion this and champion that , but look at the first fights in China they called some fighters Lumpini champs even if they were not.
You accusing people of laying but HOW DO WE KNOW YOU DONT LIE !
I think you twisting things how they suit you.
Give us a credible/independent/ source on the net were we can get the info and status about Sanda in China.
Pro ranks and amateur ranks with stats.
And please don´t tell me there is not such a page, with Sanda being so bad and kicking ass of everyone they have to affort at least one good page in English.
And one more thing, is the info that Wan yubao beat Liu Hailong a lie?
Regards

Dynamo,

Are you having reading comprehension problems again? Read more closely

First, I have no idea what Thailand called the Chinese, but Crane69's account is the one full of crap. It is in black and white on the internet so we can say what he is saying and say without a doubt that he is full of crap when he calls two guys world champs who have never even fought in the championships

Second, I already stated that you can read the results of the last three world championships at sinowushu.com. IWUF site is at www.worldsport.com/wushu.html

Crane69 called those two guys world champions, well if they are then their names will be listed in the results of the world championships. Also current San Shou news can be found often at www.sanshou.net

Now, maybe you can't read Chinese so I will tell you that results in English of 1999 world championships can be found at http://geocities.com/Colosseum/Arena/7911/worlds.html

Regarding the King of San Da circuit and whether Wan beat Liu, the circuit has been established almost three years now and unlike the world championships it is not one event in which all results can be found on the internet easily. If he beat him in 1998 or 1999 there is no results page to look and find out. But Liu is currently fighting in the circuit and considered a champion and Wan is not, so if he beat Liu, it was probably not recently.

Now, let's play a game...

This last Friday, December 7th, Mike Norman (Boston San Shou team) fought Muay Thai and defeated his opponent with a KO 46 seconds into RD 2. He kicked the Muay Thai fighter's ass so to speak, kicked him in the head and he could not get up. Lots of people saw it, I am sure there is video tape of it. A KO is a clear win. There is no clearer win. So I can clearly say San Shou beat Muay Thai and sorry, you can not argue it

But if I said it was a very significant victory because San Shou beat Muay Thai's best, and called the guy a Lumpinee champion when he is NOT, well, you'd be losing your mind and carrying on even more than you are now.

Sorry, here is the picture for you to enjoy :)



Dynamo, you are also claiming the Draka matches are lies? Thongsai said here he has actually seen them. Guess he is full of shit also

An oldie but a goodie, one of my favorites. San Shou "kicks ass" again, pretty clear from this picture. Richard Acosta KO's his Muay Thai opponent under Muay Thai rules. The referee is Fred Fitzgerald, who has refereed in Thailand and is certified by Thailand government as official. Maybe I'll put up a web page saying the guy was a Lumpinee champion also and when you complain I'll say you are just making excuses for your Muay Thai buddies getting their butts kicked

Can the best of San Shou beat the best of Muay Thai? Well, is Emanuelle Noh of France one of Muay Thai's best? I mean he is clearly one of the best fighters France ever produced, fought in Thailand and WON, has at least one KO in Lumpinee that I know of. Ramazon Ramzanov, who was AMATEUR world San Shou champion three times, making him one of San Shou's best, beat him in Draka. Ramazon by the way is the first man to beat Cung Le, beating him in the 1995 world championships.

Well Lkmdfc I am getting sick of all this , Ok your San Shou is the best , Sanda fighters are just gods and they can only be beaten if they are kicked in the balls.
First picture - nice shin pads on the guys I am pretty sure they were also allowed elbows and knees in the head when they wore shin pads.
Second picture- we have seen this picture couple of times, is this your favorite because it is the only one you got, how do we know the guy that got KO is MT stylist ,it is only your words, should we trust you? Why , after all the crap you have posted about MT.
Read what you post first, the third post you mentioning Emmanuelle Noh.
Is he a world champ? NO. Is he Lumpini ranked, NO.
So why you are using him as an example if you don´t like us using the chinese guys who are also not world champs as examples.

And please do not give me url´s of pages that are in chinese, sorry but my chinese sucks.

From all the three encounters that put MT and SS against each other the only credible outcomes came out of the third one simply because the rules were all out. That is the best way how you evaluate the strenght of the art.
Sorry but the thais WERE HENDICAPED by the rules in the first two meetings in china.
So if the SS stylist can beat the thais under the full rules - power to them , but if they just keep making advantages for themselfs, there is no way the MT community will take these wins as ligit.

One more question I like to ask is out of all the looses for MT you have mentioned which ones were under the full MT rules?
/Draka series/

Well this IKFMDC fellow is getting to be annoying and before any of you jump down my throat, I think some of us are actually giving him a reason to sound so unreasonable. Remember all the ramblings about a promoter who upset him by not using his fighters. If we give him the ammo he will continue firing. Why don't we just stop this arguments and let go. To me Muay Thai is the best but that is my opinion and IKFMDC has his opinion. Let his Sanda or SanShou people prove their superhuman abilities. I am sure the Muaythai boys will be given the same.

Lets move on.....

Cut the crap, I never said that San Shou can not be beaten, I've said numerous times that it isn't a matter of being "better" it is a matter of giving equal respect, which apparently you can't do

Cut the crap about the events in China, the 2nd event also had knees to the head and elbows, just like the event in Thailand. You just don't like the result in China because san Shou won that one. YOu only want to talk about events in which your side won

South East Asian Cup had elbows without pads, knees to head AND throws and results were 50/50

Don't believe Richard Acosta won that match against Muay Thai fighter? It's from USKBA.com and was at Lou Neglia show, HUGE US based show in which over 2000 were in attendance.

I can post the pictures of Yousef Taghizadeh KO'ing his Muay Thai opponent also if that would make you happy. The picture of the Muay Thai guy lying flat on his face in the ring is pretty self explanitory. OH, and Marvin Perry KO'ing his guy, I think there is even an mpg of it on marvinperry.org

Your Chinese isn't good, but I gave you a page in English to look at results. And don't complain so loudly, where is there a page in English that has current Muay Thai results from Thailand?

What do you want to compare? Apples to oranges or apples to apples. OK, Bunkerd Fairtex with 200 plus fights beats Chinese San Shou fighter with 30 something fights in Hawaii in 1998. Take a guy from amateur league, and remember that professional San Shou is only three years old anyway, and put him with a guy who fights in Lumpinee, your guy is probably going to win. Does that make the guy better or the art better?

Compare apples to apples and what are the results?
Richard Acosta fights a guy who has 6 more fights than him and KO's him. Fights a guy who has about the same number of fights, wins decision. Fought a Phil Nurse student (ask Sandy if Phil Nurse is good trainer) and fight is one point split decision. Two guys at about same level and matches are very close

Vlad Mrinsky is trained by Vlad Borodine. Vlad Borodine is serious Muay Thai gym, he trained in Thailand and in Holland, is also coach of several K-1 fighters. Vlad Mrinsky is undefeated as an amateur except for draw with US amateur San Shou champion. Mrinsky's only loss as professional is against San Shou fighters.

Emanuelle Noh had about 40 something professional fights, Ramazon had about 40 something also, though some are amateur fights. They are close in experience, Ramazon won

Hawaii in 1998, Chinese San Shou fighter beats the 3rd Muay Thai fighter (not Bunkerd or Jongsonan). Records show they are about same experience

Amateav fights Chitchat from Thailand, both have similar experience, Amateav wins the fight

Turkmenistan San Shou fighter has fought Danny Steele two times, result is 1-1

oh, yeah Coban, 6 time world champion (or is it 7?) fought in Draka and LOST, guess he isn't a real Muay Thai guy?

Six world San Shou championships, Thailand has sent a team to everyone but the last one because of terrorist concern. Thailand has yet to even PLACE...

San Shou doesn't always win, but it has enough wins to get some respect if you aren't a rock head with an agenda

The urls I was given by Lkmdfc
1.worldsports.com - no use for me completly in chinese

2.Sanshou.net - some info in english the important stuff still in chinese
they use muay thai pictures. ?????

3. Results of WC - thanks LKMDFC

Please is there anyone on this board that knows chinese and can surf the 2 sites and find out about who are the top in pro Sanda.
And also some info about the chinese guys that fought in the encounters with the thais, stats and so on.

Every time a San Shou guy beats a Muay Thai guy there is an excuse isn't there? "He's not a world champion", "they fought without elbows" (by the way, if the san shou fighter fights without throws, isn't he also making so compromise?), etc...

So you guys are right, San Shou has never beaten a Muay Thai guy, because just taking a single Muay Thai class makes you invincible

That makes you happy, have a nice day

hehe this is funny

I wonder if anyone will bring up the other San Shou vs MuayThai fight s that were in Thailand about the same time.

Mark L, please don't bring up the other fights, because we know that the three wins for China there were also "give aways", probably not against stadium champions, blah blah (insert some sarcasm now, since this thread is just too long and annoying now)

??? read into what you want.

I have often said that one thing people never argue when the discussion is styles is that MuayThai fighters often have alot of experiance.

That is a factor to consider.

If you read I haven't said much of anything since the results other than I don't think people should be called liers.

i was joking, cant we joke once in a while?

it is lunch time at the gym and I am bored so let me approach this differently

if three years ago I had said there was going to be 15 matches in Thailand with Chinese fighting Thai fighters and that the Chinese were going to win more than a quarter of them (4 out of the 15) you would have all laughed so hard you would have injured internal organs. now the debate is quite different in substance isn't it?

Muay Thai has been a ring sport for close to 70 years? In Thailand, there is no recreational Muay Thai, no dillitants, and the fighters fight frequently. There are two major stadiums and many fights all the time. There is only fighting Muay Thai, there is "aerobic Muay Thai" or Muay Thai for spiritual cultivation, or Muay Thai for "feeling good inside"

San Da has been a professional sport for a little more than three years. In China, the King of San Da circuit has 5 to 7 televised matches a week, that's all. There are more amateur matches, regional, provincial and national championships but the professional only started in 1998.

Outside of China, there is a very small and fledgling number of pro fighters in the US and there is the now defunct Draka league which ran in Russia from 1997 to 1999.

something to think about (or rather more to think about)

sorry lkf :)

Yes thats one of my points. San Shou is very new...

Can i ask that we get back to the topic rather than talk about totally unrelated fighters from IKFMDC's gym?. We all know what you think IFFMDC but can you just back off as I and I am sure others would really like to find out about this event and not only the San Shou vs MT but also find out about Wayne Parr's kickass effort (go Aussies!!!) and where i can get a videotape!

BTW IFFMDC i think that response to Alan Wong, one of Australia's finest trainers and all round nice guys, was poor and you should apologise. G'day Alan,
good to see you on board.

please move this over to the CAT-Fight: MT vs SS thread where it belongs...

Thanks!

Now does anyone have the results????

i reckon muay thai would almost always beat san shou ...what does everyone else think?, ikfmdc? ....hehe, LOL! :-P

chris h.
they have the kings b-day at the thaianee video.in stanton between beach and lincoln.

Hi Piranha

Thanks for the kind comments. i actually find this very thread very amusing. It facinates me to see people put so much effort into writing long post instead of training. Some of these fellas here (one in particular, no names mentioned but we all know who it is) are wasting their time. Pay you later for your comments He He :)

No problem Alan, just pay me later!!!

And so no one forgets --- where can we get a videotape???? I am willing to pay. Thongsai, i have emailed you, can you come back to me when possible? Thank you.

Any details about JWP's fights - i know he won on points but more details?

Chris Hernandez - You keep asking for the results however they have already been given. Towards the top of the thread in several different posts are the results
lkfmdc - Get a life or fight the Thai's all by yourself. Frankly, I don't give a shit who wins as long as the fights are good. There is a misconception that many people think Muay Thai without elbows or knees is Muay Thai, it's not. Neither is San Shou complete with throws. You keep saying that people think San Shou is crap. Well I for one don't think it is. I will say it again...I think Muay Thai has proven over the years that they are the ones to beat in Muay Thai. In general they simply perform the best and are the most consistent. All the Draka/ Sanda events are great but do they allow each practitioner to use his full arsenal? Oh, and there is a definite huge difference between a padded elbow and unpadded one. If Muay Thai fighters get their asses whupped by San Shou or TKD for that matter, I don't have a problem saying so. It seems that you do have a problem with this LKFMDC.....

The lost of the match Dec. 5th had raised criticism storm in China. conclude the reason is as follows:

1\the lost is not only for a match but also for the sports system---profession win non-profession.
some muay thai friends might ask why sanshou sportsmen train all days but are not profession?
profession is different from non profession for its working system. muay thai have a perfect system to run muay thai to support sporsmen competition to support many people's living.so muay thai sportsmen have clear goal to train to fight.
but on the contrary, China is lack of this kind of system to support sanshou to do this. sanshou sportsmen even can not afford a meal after they leave their province or association teams.those teams are established for national championship or other match held by government which have something to do with pfficals but have nothing to do with sportsmen .although the winner of champion win the honor but it does not benefit for their living.so sanshou sportsmen have no great ambition to train and to fight so that we can sew in the match with muay thai,they show worse training level.

2\the rule restriction makes sanshou have no training of elbows \knees and ability of fight for a longer time.
sanshou championship and national meeting is forbidden of using elbow and knee. 3 win out of 5 rounds,each round 3 min.
sanda king chellange is forbidden of using elbow. 5 rounds win by point. each round 2 min rest 1 min
so sanshou sportsmen are lack of training of those techniques used by muay thai.
although they have several weeks to learn how to deal with elbow and knees . but the abilities are hard to got in such a short time.
during the match 2 sanshou sportsmen was KOed by opponents knees. that proved that they should be pity of the losing for the sake of they were unable to do well in such short time compared with their opponents who have been doing great since they were a child.

3\the offical of Chinese martial arts association under-estimate thais.
although they have estimated chinese will face great difficulties in thailand, but they do poor preparation for this match.
Yun yubao(75kg)and garilatu(65kg) both participated 2 sanda king matchs just 1 week before Dec 5th. a sportsman is hard to adjust his situation after roughly match in such a short time.but the officail insisted on letting them go to thailand for the match.

4\the instructor made mistakes.
the instructor is not the one before in guangzhou.he has no any good strategy at sportsmen's strength distribution within 5 rounds. the first one (60kg)used too much throws in the first round so that he was out of breath in next 4 rounds. other ones also have no good distribution of their strength.

5\throwing is not a injury method in ring sports.
if real fight or in Chinese leitai, throwign is a kind of powerful technique to injure opponent onto ground or off leitai. but in ring sports. good safety guardware protect sportsmen from throwing badly. so sanshou side win points by throwing but exhausted. that is a main reason for chinese losing their match.

6\ poor rest make chinese tired
the begining of time is 12:00 pm in China. those chinese guys lived a terrible day in bankok without enoungh rest.

maybe some friend say that is excuse . muay thai is the best. that is your opinion you have right to keep.but as a chinese martial arts fans , I have to say that this is a begining, people should not make conclusion so fast.

as for my prediction. sanshou sports is looking forward to open rules and to run professional system with business sustaining. the lost is a good thing for sanshou development such as chinese make good progresses now after suffering a lot 100 years.

by the way .sanshou sports is sports not sanshou meaning of traditional chinese martial arts.
so this match is only for sports event.
who want to know what is chinese kungfu ,welcome to china for a test.

Sunriser,
thanx for interesting info.

Whoa!!!!
did I read that right Wan Yaboa and Garilatu are
in KINGS of SANDA oh no they are pro's!!!!

I knew it......

Thanx for the great info sunriser

In regards to sunriser's post:

1. There are currently two types of San Shou athletes in China. MOST, by far 90%, are amateurs who work a day job and then go to a sports program practice to work out. They fight in the amatuer events which DO NOT have knee or elbows and are fought WITH padding and head gear. Several of the fighters matched against the Thais in BOTH China AND Thailand were this kind of San Shou athlete. I have already said I would have never put these kind of fighters against professional Thai Muay Thai fighters. But the fact they survived is pretty good I gues and this was China's decision. Next time, as I already said several times, it should only be the pro King of San Da people

2. Because there are no elbows in San Shou, they have a disadvantage of course, but no crying over it. If you are arranging a fight with knees and elbows, TRAIN knees and elbows. When my fighters arrange to fight under Muay Thai rules, we STOP training the throws and start training the clinch and clinch striking. Otherwise it is their own stupidity.

You would think with the "prestige" involved in this event, the Chinese would have been smarter in preparing. Oh well, once again China has made a dumb decision which is hurting our sport!

3. Not only that, but the world championships were just a few weeks before and the best amateurs were not around for this. THis explains putting an amateur who took THIRD in the THailand matches I guess

By the way, I never said that Wan Yubao and the Mongolian were not professionals. I said they are not "world champions" since they never won that title

4. No point in compaining you used the wrong strategy ONCE you have lost.

5. Russian, Iranian and American San Shou fighters use IMPACT throws which do hurt and damage. China has not been known for this style. Ring has NOTHING to do with it

6. Again, if you make and agree to the arrangements don't bitch about it afterwards. It is no better than Thai fighters who agree to no elbows and when the lose then complain that without elbows it wasn't fair

I personally am not fond of elbows, but would love to see the knees back in amateur competition

I didn't see sunriser as complaining. I thought sunriser was just saying how it was. Maybe I'm wrong but saying what happened even if it may help create a loss isn't nessasarily an excuse. I don't know the sunriser was saying the Chinese would of won more or could of won more but this and this happened. I think sunriser is saying that there are still things that need to get worked out in San Shou and these are some of the problems.

I could be wrong but thats how I read it.

Sunriser am I close or way off? :)

And who are you? You seem to have a lot of inside info. How is this?

Where did they get that huge trophy in the picture above?
Where would you put it?
I reckon its bigger than me.

Lkmdfc is the mongolian that fought in Thailand the Mongolian King that has fought in Hawaii way back about 3 years ago?

OK maybe I am the only one who missed it but....Did these fights take place???
What where the results???? I saw the results of the Menor fight!


3-period
12:30-1:00 am next morning
-Melchor Menor (USA) vs Saksith Sripasert (Thai) 147
-Ole Laursen (USA via DEN.) vs Khundej (Thai) 154
-Ben Garcia (USA) vs Kwangyo (Thai) 138
-Shinji Matsuura (Jap)vs Taweepsap Sitsanaroon (Thai)160
-Sakurai Ichi (Jap) vs vs Kru noi Sor Kingstar (Thai) 125

Dynamo, yes, the Mongolian fought Cung Le in Hawaii several years ago and Cung Le defeated him rather convincingly.

Mark L:

Sunriser lives in China and is a very wise man.
I used to post on Muaythai.com. He was the only SS suporter that I could actually learn something from.

Mr.Ikfmdc you wrote "My community is sick and tired of hearing the Muay Thai people claim everthing under the sun was created by them....get over it"

But i'm afraid mr.Ikfmdc you haven't visted other forums after the first two ss wins. You think Muay thai people are bad why don't you go to Muay Thai.com and see what your community has been posting. You won't be proud!
One of them even started an entire thread on Thailand being the sex change capital of the world! I'm not lying, one of them even stated that Muay Thai got it's techniques from Kung fu! Too many insulting posts to name.

But the Muay Thai community is not alone in thinking that their techniques are original. Bruce Lee openly admitts in taking moves from Muay Thai to form Jeet kun do. In his book taoism of jeet kun do he has a diagram instructing how to do the muay thai style round house.

Many of them stated that San Shou got all of it's techniques from ancient kung fu, throws and all.

I read on Ax(probably this thread) that Melchor lost though everyone was impressed with his style. I think the rest of the results are with Melchors.

Thanks Mark! I saw that post and didnt see Ole or Ben Garcia mentioned...Maybe they where there and I just missed it being that my eyes start to glaze over everytime I open this thread.... :)
my 2 cents are simply that: Do the style that you enjoy and forget everything else..Blackbelt magazine used to constantly run those BS..Articles.
Boxing vs Karate..Jiu Jitsu vs Tae Kwon Do...who cares.. I few years back when all the BJJ guys where winning the UFC then all stand up styles where useless remember...now the ideas have changed...You can argue this till the Cows come home(where do cows go for a good time???) I used to do TKD and I was on a TKD list server those goof balls practiced the same art, TKD, yet they would constantly argue about what flavor of TKD was better....give me a break...
so what if someone borrowed something from somebody else and didnt say thanks.

I think far enough back much goes to the Chinese but was Kung Fu even around? If so its not what it is today and MuayThai certailny isn't what it was when the seperation began.

I see nothing wrong with believing in ones style. That doesn't mean more than one can't be good but if its just another style why take it? Again that doesn't mean more than one isn't good.

We get carried away in insults and confuse facts and manipulate them but is it so bad to believe in what you do? I don't think so. I think we should just think about our wording and watch what we say.

People say its not the martial art its the artist. That one really makes me laugh.

There is truth in there but come on...would I be just as good a fighter if I took TKD?

Not the car its the driver...

OK similar cars yes...but what if ones a top car and ones a piece of junk. The car is just a factor and the driver can make a huge difference. But get the same type of driver in a junker and one of equal skill in a top car and what will happen?

Style is a factor and we may disagree on what styles better...thats fine we just need to think how we word things and yes we can just get over it and be confident in our style.

That doesn't mean we can't learn from other styles or that we may change our opinion. Believing in something does not automatically mean that we can not be open to imput and change.

I have nothing against SS. I haven't seen alot but I have seen some and it seems ok. I think they have lots to learn but I think that is mostly because it is very new.

Sunriser talked about some of the mistakes in training. That is part of the game. Knowing how to train is very important. SS is relatively new to this. This doesn't mean that they aren't good but it indicates that they are quite young in the game.


For how young they are they seem to be doing well. Yo9u have to remember that experiance is a factor. The Thais have lots in all aspects including the individual fighters.

MuayThai, in my opinion, is on top but there are many reasons for that and some go beyond moves. As much as I love MuayThai and do believe in its moves and know there is more to it.

Hopefully as other countries get stronger(many learning and some trying not to learn from MuayThais vast experiance) the Thais will be more challanged and so will MuayThai its self. I think this is good. It will bring everything up including MuayThai.

I hope this offends no one. Peace

Wise words Mark.
That pretty much summed everything up.

I haven't seen the comments in question, not that I am saying I don't believe you, simply I have not seen them. I suppose the answer is that there are annoying yahoos in every tradition. My only reaction after the two wins in China was to be happy that San Shou made a good showing. To me, it didn't mean Muay Thai was no good, it is obviously good and strong. But I was happy that San Shou made a good stand. That San Shou lost matches in Thailand, that there were 5 KO's in that second event Alan Wong talked about, maybe I am disappointed but I am not "angry". Muay Thai is very strong and certainly you should never take them lightly. I am only angry that it was turned into some sort of propoganda and that people who are not world champions are called that title. Being a world champion is hard and deserves respect, those who have not earned it should not steal the title, even if they are Chinese :)

China has quite a sex industry, so if someone wants to argue like that, you have ammunition plenty LOL!

Not to start a new argument, but Bruce Lee knew very little about the variety of Chinese martial art. His training was limited to a very limited amount of Wing Chun and even his exposure to what limited amount of style were being openly taught in Hong Kong at his time. There is no question he studied Muay Thai, boxing and wrestling, etc... but that doesn't mean that all Chinese who can kick and punch are like Bruce Lee, taking from non Chinese arts. There are plenty of kicks, punches, knee, etc in Chinese martial art. I already said neither side stole anything, after all every human being has the same limbs and joints and can only move so many ways!

Sadly, or maybe good news to you all, I am not going to be able to post more in the near future, I am off to China... no internet access

Have fun in China.

Ikfmdc:

Thanks but another San Shou practitioner actually brought up in Thailand's defense about China's huge sex change industry.

Thanks for the education on Bruce Lee. I guess his film industry success has built him up to be more of an expert on Chinese martial arts than he actually was.

Too bad that you won't have internet access in China. I was actually learning a lot from some of your posts along with another angle of vision. I don't know if anyone else will admitt that.

Have a nice trip!

lkfmdc, i've read your posts for a while. What do think if most of san shu faught in Muaythai style such as Kick, step, guard? I have seen from TV on live of King's birthday and the finght of Thai visited China a couple ago.

the MT vs SS debate kinda like the BJJ vs Judo one. In a submission match, the Judo throw is not as effective because often it does not "finish" the fight. Same thing in MT vs SS. The SS throw, while worth more in points, does not achieve a knockout in the ring as effectively as kicks and punches to the head. knockouts are usually achieved via combinations or flurries of strikes. a one-punch K.O, is as difficult to land as a K.O. throw.

I got it in ENglish, thanks Edmundo.

OK, this is all fine and dandy, but HOW DID THE AMERICAN TEAM DO?

Doug, You fail to see the REAL value of this thread!!!! It doesn't matter how the USA team did!!! What we now know is that Any SS fighter that has been trained/stolen Muay Thai tech could have beaten all the Amer fighters handily with one leg tied behind his/her back...ps AT the same time....

Oh, sorry, I forgot. I got lost in all this. Personally, I dont care what style it is in the ring. The trick is to hit and not be hit, simple. I think SS is a cool sport and from a self-defense perspective, it is definately more complete than Muay Thai just on the basis of the throws. The first time I saw Draka was in 92 when a Russian team was training at the boxing gym I was at. I thought I would give them some sparring and was I ever surpised when they started tossing me around left and right. Ive been sold on its effectiveness ever since.

The experience of Doug with Sanshou did no surprised me. As a fighting system it is pretty complete and should not be underestimated. I am speaking from 38 years of experience and involvement in Muay Thai.I was also fortunate enough to grow up in northern parts of Malaysia close to Thai border where both Muay Thai and Shanshou existed.

Those who were MT trained would try to avoid street fight with those trained in SS despite knowing that we would beat them in the ring. It was more a street fight system than sport. They were not trained to the level of fitness like us to last five X 3 minutes round.

Their fight experience were much lesser comparing to ours as they could never accummulate as many fights in competition than we could get. MT being a professional sport, fight events were so frequent that we normally fought between interval of around 3 weeks all year round. Most SS trainee I knew did not participate in sport tournament. If any were, SS tournament only happened once a year in state level, once a year in national level and once every two years in international level. IE. average of two and a half fights per year.In street fight, SS trainee could never have the same numbers of fight as MT fighters. If they tried, many would be permanently mained or killed long before they reached the number of fights an average MT fighter could accummulate. A basketball mate of mine has uncle who was a renowned SS streetfighter in town. He was a 'Tiger General' in the local Triad and he lost one eye in one of the fight.

MT, with more than seventy years of experience in professional ring sport is undisputely the king of the ring in full contact stand-up striking sport. The level of skill that developed over this period is unsurpassed by any other system. SS in its development as a sport will never reach the the same skill level in the ring unless it developes into a professional sport with popular support.