Do throws score?

I must admit to being both surprised and dissapointed after having spoken to a qualified mt judge who tells me that throws dont score. He stuck to his guns even after i showed him a copy of his own sanctioning organisation's rules stating very clearly that they do! So guys, does this score?

I went on the first stage of a judging course recently and we were taught that unless you attempt an attacking technique when throwing an opponent that it doesn't score(ir following up with a knee as the opponent is on his way down).

Before this I always thought throws scored as long as they weren't hip throws!

Lol!

They didn't when I fought Bregy!!! Lol!

This goes with my last post on the K1 Max. We should all be made aware of what scores, and what doesn't...

Smiler

Ive done a judging course too, and had a racherdamnern judge patiently explain to me which throws are legal and which are not (different issue i know). Interestingly, 2 weeks after this coversation, the rules changed - again!


However, my point on this thread is: how do we best advise our fighters when the rulebook says one thing and the judge says another?

Yeah!

Point made elsewhere by me and others! Judges should be scoring to the rules. The rules should be published. Judges should then be educated and checked to see that they are implementing the rules properly. Then we all get conformity and know where we stand.

Smiler

good question, too which I have no answer:)

they do in San Da :)

I read in the IFMA rules I think that they count towards control or dominance, or something like that, but then they probably changed the rules again??

Yes throws score.

But many of the old throw tecniques have been banned.

I trained in Thailand and that seems to be the big thing over there, as it does show dominance and also tires your opponent if they have to keep getting up all the time.
Also, in saying that, if it is an non-scoring technique would you get penalised for doing it too often? As you are avoiding fighting?

Must say though, I am keen on throws, and thats a nice example by Ricky Richardson of Master A's at the top of this thread!!!!!!!!!

They score if they show that one figher is in contol of the other. If the clip on the first post happened evey time the fighters got in the clinch, it would show who was in charge and it would score because he is using the other fighters techniques against him and controlling the fight.

They Dont score !
just weaken your opponent and Physcologically too !

Sandy

??? They do score.

The throw in the clip is illegal. Its is a foul! So no it would not score.

Sandy, what about increasing the control of the fight? A fighter isn't in control if his bum's on the canvass....?

Smiler

What about if you apply pressure to the bottom of there back pulling them in and hook the leg ? just a query seeing as were on about throws , cause one ref let me do it time after time but another pulled me up on it straight away .... little confused !

Mark L

Thats what stated earlier these old style throws are now banned but how old is that clip if its years old it might have been legal then.

Sandy

When 2 boxers are working a clinch & counter kneeing as 1 fighter goes to knee and the other side steps and throws him it scores.

Noi666

I think you should do some homework in MT please if you think the above is a nice example of a throw.

Snail-ilegal!

I think this just highlights the problems discussed on another thread. Two well known instructors from different gyms both in the UK saying exactly the opposite about one technique. The problems of scoring and the way fighters approach fights to win isn't going to be resolved until this is sorted. Things should be scored as they are in Thailand, but then in Thailand do all judges score the same? Am I right in believing that the WMC are the most influential organisation in Muay Thai, if so do they not have written criteria for judging and scoring. The whole thing seems to be in a terrible mess at the moment and for our sport to grow it needs to be organised so that those on the inside know what is going on before anyone on the outside can understand and appreciate the art. Just my opinion

snail

Illegal

nomention of in a Clinch and Knneing ! and the Throw ?
if so ? yes !
but it asks do throws score ?
NO

oops

The fight is not that old...probably last year as a guess...(the venue looks like the Amadeus Nightclub in Rochester, but not too sure, in fact the opponent looks like Aaron Holmes) from the clip it looks illegal as you can see the ref (Justin Hudson) try to stop the fighter before he dumps.

'before he dumps' (him to the canvas)

LOL.

WKA rules. 53 b ii seems pretty clear?


RULE 53 SCORING

(a) The Whole body will be a scoring area, with the exception of illegal targets.



Rules of European Thai Boxing

(b) Points will be scored by:

(I) An effective strike or series of strikes by punch, kick, or other method.

(ii) An effective throw.

(iii) Any other effective method not being illegal which the judge deems to
weaken the opponent.

WKA rules. 53 b ii seems pretty clear?


RULE 53 SCORING

(a) The Whole body will be a scoring area, with the exception of illegal targets.



Rules of European Thai Boxing

(b) Points will be scored by:

(I) An effective strike or series of strikes by punch, kick, or other method.

(ii) An effective throw.

(iii) Any other effective method not being illegal which the judge deems to
weaken the opponent.

So that's the WKA....

What about the others?

Smiler

Unfortunatly WKA are Defo: on the way out Esp: in Muay-Thai! Way behind in the Sport ! WAKO and ISKA and a few others have more than taken over ! Sorry WKA but your mainly Semi and Full contact kick-Boxing now ! have been for about 3 years

Paul-I don't know how long that one has been illegal...but its been awhile I think. I don't think its a new change. Anyone know?

Shaun-it is an illegal throw. At least in MuayThai rules. I don't know the sanction it was under so who knows.

'Throws' can show dominance and controle. They can show you to be strong and your opponent weak. They can show one has superior skills and techinique/timing.

MuayThai doesn't have throws as such. The legal 'throws' are little pulls and twists that take timing and skill. The person who goes down could be tired or less skilled.

You don't fight to try to pick the guy up and dump him. You out smart him and show his weakness.

MuayThai 'throws' are not forced. they are timed and exploiting a weakness in stance/balance/strength. They are not a competition of strength. You don't struggle to see who can dump the other. Its more like...look at this...this guy can't even stay on his feet and I didn't hardly do a thing. He can not fight me at an equal level.

You don't pick the guy up. You don't force him over your head and spin him around. You exploit a weakness in stance and or balance and or you show your superior skills and timing.

Thats kinda how I view it...as a judge a fighter struggling time after time for a 'throw' and finally getting it after using up a ton of energy will not impress me as much as a fighter who can show up his opponent with seemingly no effort at all.

mark i've seen thais do that "throw" befor though. But any ways most of the Thai "throws" are more like uh "dumps" or like you were saying befor mark pulling on the neck to nock them off balnce.Like how Woodenman fairtex guy dose.

What throw before? The one in the clip?? Yes I have seen it too. Its still illegal. :)

The real good ones will kinda do that with out grabbing a lifting but have a pretty similar out come. Its much harder as it takes more timing and more skill.

ah
k thanks mark
but why take out thouse throws?

guess there are Throws and Throse lol

guess there are Throws and Throse lol

Argh i didnt Double post !
And ref: the Throws ? there are so many variants that its hard to explain ! unless its shown as Sids done with the clip !

why are they illegal? Why can't you pick up and run with a football? Thats the game, thats how it is.

I personally think throws stop the action. I think goping for throw often slows/stops the action. It looks good if you get it...then you have to wait to continue...and often when the throws don't work the guy looks silly trying to get something off that doesn't work. He's all bent over and not in a position to fight. If you have throws why not just go in and clinch and try to throw all the time?

Or you see fighters just taking shots to try to get a throw. Of course theres skill in the throw etc and balls to walk through a hit. But i like to see some deffensive actiona and offensive action.

Basically 'throws' are illegal. You can do little pushes/pulls/twists and if you can make the guy land on his ass or off balance in to strike him you're doing great.

Some sports like SS and NHB have throws. MuayThai doesn't allow them in the ring. Thats the way it is.

In tennis you cannot kick the ball. In swimming you can't try to pull the other guy down. Its just the sport it is.

Because its fighting our egos want to try to see what is best or what is better or why not do this and that. MuayThai is a sport(amoung other things) it is how it is.

I would imagine that the rules of MuayThai were mostly developped around the time of adding gloves/ring/rounds etc.

Why don't boxers throw? Cause its boxing.

I would guess that the taking out the throws got the fighters to strike more which was many possibly thought had a higher entertainment value, It allowed the action to be continue throught the fight. Maybe some safety issuse...like guys getting dumped on their heads...I don't know.

"Some sports like SS and NHB have throws. MuayThai doesn't allow them in the ring. Thats the way it is."

That is a very lacking answer. I know that you probably don't really know why throws were taken out of Muay Thai over the years...but the question is meant to bring about speculation or theories on why you think they removed the throws. There is a reason behind all rule changes. They don't just do it because they feel like it. "That's the way it is" doesn't really do a whole lot for the discussion.

k i think i din't word that right some one side it was leage at one point and now isn't so i guess i should have asked why get rid of them now if they were ever leage at one point. sorry mark for not makeing it more clear.

Brian-I gave some thoughts on to the reasons. But do you hear anyone asking why you can't tackle in basketball? No you don't?

G-in the old days, as far as I know. There were no rules. MuayThai has developped into the sport it is. So basically everything was legal.

I don't know what throws were allowed in the 30s when they started using gloves/etc I don't know if any were or if they were when they were takien out.

I have speculated a couple reasons why I think they may have been taken out.

>> But do you hear anyone asking why you can't tackle in basketball? No you don't?

Maybe you do on basket ball forums ;p

I don't have any idea or even guess why the rules of Mauy Thai are as they are in regards to Muay Thai.... did that sentence make any sense?

From a San Da perspective, you scratch your head and say "ok, I can grab your leg and kick it out, but I can't kick it out using the arch? OK? I can throw you over the inside of my leg, but not the outside, uh, OK?" We follow the rules, because that is the CORRECT THING TO DO when we fight Muay thai, but I can't say we understand the logic of it

"Ogre Steals the Maidan" is banned because it is "dangerous" or so we were told. Honestly, I wonder why that is "dangerous" but elbows and knees to the head aren't? LMFAO, that's me being funny, don't start a flame war...

Maybe it is just what people like and don't like. Some say the San da throws slow the action, but love the Muay Thai clinch and knee, while clearly others HATE the Muay Thai clinch and knee

I like both, that's why I like San Da, we can do both, we can play with both.

There is clearly an aesthetic (sp?) to Muay Thai, but I don't know if it's a logical aesthetic???

“In tennis you cannot kick the ball. In swimming you can't try to pull the other guy down. Its just the sport it is.”

Was kicking the ball ever legal in tennis? In swimming was it EVER legal to pull the other guy down?

“Why don't boxers throw? Cause its boxing”

Again same thing has throws ever been legal in boxing?

But in Muay Thai were throws legal at one time or another? But they aren’t legal now?

This goes to what Lkfmdc wrote

“I can throw you over the inside of my leg, but not the outside, uh, OK?"

It’s like the swimming example. You can’t pull the other guy down. BUT you can if you pull him over the inside of your leg but not the outside.
Logically it makes no sense. If you can do one why can’t you do all. But these are the rules if you are going to participate you just have to go along with them.
Just like in San Shou when people always say “ Why throw it’s stupid if you can’t follow up with ground work” It’s the rules of the SPORT.
But it would bring a different view if throws were illegal in San Shou and they just added them.

Varies broadly I think I have been to some events where they allow almost any kind of throw including hip tosses which are almost always illegal. I have also been to some where an inactive clinch is broken up literally in seconds. To be honest I don't really care how they score or don't score it keeps it interesting.

StevenR-lol

I'm not sure i follow but you cannot pull over the inside of your leg in MuayThai.

Monkey-cause the ref doesn't know MuayThai doesn't mean its allowed.

Dread-ok so your saying you want to bring it back like it was before the 30s??

I mean if you bring back one should you bring back it all?

I know some MuayThai people won't like me saying this and I do respect MuayThais history. But to me MuayThai is what it has become today. The old tales and legends are great and have meaning etc but what they did and what is done now isn't the same. It wasn't even called MuayThai back then.

I don't know when throws were taken out but I asume it is when 'MuayThai' was developed from the 'NHB' it was.

Anyone know?? I'd like to find out.

I don't think you'd find many fighters who'd want to fight bare hand never mind anything goes(then again there are and thats NHB not MuayThai).

MuayThai comes from a long history of fighting but as I see it its what it is!

"cause the ref doesn't know MuayThai doesn't mean its allowed.'

Sure it does. If you do it, they score it, guess what? It's allowed.

ok-because the ref doesn't know(and maybe the judge too) dooesn'tt mean its suppose to be allowed. Acceptable?

You all know what it's like whe you get exaused and you're clinching, you'll do anything for a short breather if you're on the back foot. So how can some of you say that throws are an attacking move when if you're getting beaten in the clinch and the only way you can get out of it is to dump or throw your opponent on the canvas repeatedly? I'm sure we've all seen this happen before.

I don't think it's a question of throws scoring, I think it's more a question of intelligent judges being able to (through experience) recognise who is the superior fighter and exactly who is landing the most effective techniques, whether they be strikes or attacking throws.

Muay Thai in the US is never judged the same in any two places. But, you seem to be confused. Let me try again. IF they score it after you throw it what does that tell you?

Monkey-what I'm trying to say is becuase it is done one way doesn't mean its right.

It doesn't matter to me to be honest Mark. If they allow I am going to do it.
The rules regarding throws that I have seen thus far implemented have little to truly alter the entire complexion of a fight.

If you look at Sid's example above and his cited examples his question is still valid. Sid has over 16 years of training muay thai in the UK where one could argue muay thai judging is much more standardized. That example gif he has above is far from the worst throw I have seen actually score in the ring. It was really more of a dump than a throw. I have seen people completely upended far worse and those have scored as well. The only thing I have yet to see is ippon judo throws.

Monkey-fine. But I think saying that in MuayThai you can do this is inaccurat and miss leading.

Technically you can when people don't know what they are doing. You may be fine with that. But its wrong regardless if you care or not.

How do you know if the throw scores in the ring or not? How many judges have told you they score it?

I have seen refs actually point to the fighter following the throw and indicate the point in 2 different cases. Oddly enough not unlike they would do in wrestling. Whether events follow what in your opinon is acceptable with your definition of the rules or not does not mean they don't know what they're doing. Sid has been at it probably close to 1/2 his life for probably 17 years now and he even says they change the rules frequently. Truthfully they do. Rules don't define the style. Which is why one can argue Sanda really is not it's own fight style so much as a re-definition in fight rules.

Monkey writes:

"I have seen refs actually point to the fighter following the throw and indicate the point in 2 different cases."

This is not done in MuayThai. If you go to a show and they do this and call it MuayThai then you go to some messed up shows.

Better make that a ton of 'messed up' shows then. And I have seen it increase.

could you name one where you have gone and the ref indicates points?

Yeah I have seen it happen several times. Which particular times would you like me to cite? It seems to me your specific sensibilities are not reinforced therefore everyone not adhering to that sensibility is wrong. Let me ask you why should you version of how things should be, should be applied to everyone else and the many who obviously do not do it the way you want? In your opinon does that therefore make more people doing it wrong than right?

You and I have seen far worse where it may not have scored but there was no penalty whatsoever. IE trip up and landing on your opponent full weight behind your knee to their abdomen.

How I want it and the rules of MuayThai are not the same issue. I want the rules to be followed and the sport to be practiced corectly and safely.

I really don't understand your though process of how people do things.

It happens that often huh? I presume you mean in the States? I am asking as I have never seen of heard of it. The only time I've heard of refs awarding points is in SS and I saw that on tape at the Kings B-day.

In MuayThai the ref does not award points(don't say I've seen it so they do please). If you have seen this then it is either false advertising or simply not MuayThai. The only time a ref would be giving any points is if a ref got hurt and the head judge took his spot as a ref. I'm pretty sure the new ref still scores the fight.

Mark,

I was taught that throws score of the person throwing tries to follow up with a technique whilst the person is on the way down. This scores even if the technique misses(so I was taught).

Whats your view on this???

Off balancing an opponent('throw' or otherwise) takes skill using it to set up a strike, or being able to strike takes even more.
Being able to off balance an oponent while still leaving yourself in a position to fight is harder than just trying to force someone off balance or forse a throw. This is about the biggest 'score' you can get. Obviously the better and more effective the follow up strike the more in the lead you'll be.

You are creating an opening and a vunrability. You are putting your opponent in a position in which he can not really fight. If you can stop someone from being able to fight you've won.

My thoughtson it anyway.

Basically-Yes, this is one of the biggest ways to 'score'.

"How I want it and the rules of MuayThai are not the same issue. I want the rules to be followed and the sport to be practiced corectly and safely."

Mark you're missing the point. Sid says they often change the rules on him. The rules are not set in concrete and are subject to change. Rules define the event not the sport.

"I really don't understand your though process of how people do things."

It's not necessary to understand my thought process to get a rather simple point. But since we are on the topic it's very simple. If you enter an event where the rules do not meet your liking. Don't participate. If the rules are aceeptable go ahead and participate. That's my thoughts on it. Now if you are saying the enforcement of the rules varies from very strict to don't give a damn. Yes I agree that should be standardized. But you know as well as I do it will never happen.

"It happens that often huh? I presume you mean in the States?"
It happens often enough that I can point to examples of it. but I have seen more cases of points taken than awarded.

The sick ref part I have no idea what you are trying to say.

Monkey-I don't believe they should be. I believed they are changed(for the most part because of lack of knowlage).

If I agree to fight under any rules then I will not complain about winning or losing because of the rules. i haven't seen that major rule changes on paper of the associations yet I see many different calls by the refs. i don't believe these are the rules most of the time. I believe most of the time the refs don't know the rules and or think they do and or mix them with kickboxing or boxing rules.

I'm sure some associations change some but much of the time I think its uneducated officials.

So no, I don't think that agreeing to fight MuayThai and then having refs make up what they want is fair.

If the ref gets hurt and can no longer continue then the head judge issuppose to take his place...he will still 'score'.


Can you give me one instance that a ref has given a point for a throw in a MuayThai contest??? You used that to prove knowing scores didn't you?

You said you'd seen it twice and then you said you seen it several times.


Mark-"How do you know if the throw scores in the ring or not? How many judges have told you they score it?"

Monkey-"I have seen refs actually point to the fighter following the throw and indicate the point in 2 different cases."

Mark-"could you name one where you have gone and the ref indicates points?"

Monkey-"Yeah I have seen it happen several times. Which particular times would you like me to cite?" (ok thats kinda of a silly thing to say as I haven't seen them nor do I know what you've seen)

---


So..?

3X Max Heyman versus Fransisco Santos.

4X Danny Slade Versus Fransisco Santos.

2 events, 7 times. Different referees though. Same fighter doing the majority of throws. He moved up in weight since Danny Slade.

Fred Fitzgerald of NJ is supposed to be Thailand certified and has supposedly ref'd over 100 fight IN Thailand... from what he told me, you CAN throw someone over the inside of your leg, ie you can grab them around the waist and twist them, sort of like the above picture, and that is LEGAL. But that you can no bend them BACKWARD as in "ogre steals the maidan" thing... but he said that USED to be legal, like plowing USED to be legal.

Anyway, we follow what Fred says is legal, since he is the ref and it's his match therefore, and he seems to be a legit authority...

OK Monkey-thats not MuayThai. You may say it is cause they called it that but its not!! If I call you black does that make you black?

It does not meet your definition. That is true.

Like how Woodenman fairtex guy dose.

Jongsanan doesn't do or teach throws, he will use your balance or rather lack of balance against you. while you are attacking w/ knees it's common practice to turn your opponent so the result is a fall/throw depending on how you look at it. it's not actually a throw per se.

Correct me if I am mistaking. Thai kids (I was told) are taught little rhymed poems among which one is : a kick can be easy countered by a punch, a punch is countered by an elbow, an elbow by a knee, a knee by a throw. It looks to me that in the logic of the game, it was allowed to sweep the leg of the opponent who is careless in attempting to knee and it was a part of the game as much as it is legitimate to consider elbows not only very important in themselves but as a part of the countering arsenal against an agressive boxer. Same for sweeps - with the correction that the difference is that, being not strikes in themselves, they are limited in respect to conserving the "striking art" character of the ring game, whilst being accepted as a part of the arsenal able to increase quality and technical difficulty of the arsenal without depriving the show of its main quality.

Just an outsider's opinion. I am curious whether there are such interpretations of otherwise illogical rules.

Correct me if I am mistaking. Thai kids (I was told) are taught little rhymed poems among which one is : a kick can be easy countered by a punch, a punch is countered by an elbow, an elbow by a knee, a knee by a throw. It looks to me that in the logic of the game, it was allowed to sweep the leg of the opponent who is careless in attempting to knee and it was a part of the game as much as it is legitimate to consider elbows not only very important in themselves but as a part of the countering arsenal against an agressive boxer. Same for sweeps - with the correction that the difference is that, being not strikes in themselves, they are limited in respect to conserving the "striking art" character of the ring game, whilst being accepted as a part of the arsenal able to increase quality and technical difficulty of the arsenal without depriving the show of its main quality.

Just an outsider's opinion. I am curious whether there are such interpretations of otherwise illogical rules.

lb-well said.


Monkey-no it sure as heel doesn't meet my deffinition. Nor do a snakes have legs. Some people might call lizards snake but in my world they are just lizards.

Unicorn-I would think its knee with elbow. Not elbow with knee. But I'm not sure.

Unicorn-sweeps are illegal In MuayThai.

Little bully said it well. Basically there are no throws. Just little pulls and pushes. So it isn't some throws. If you see a throw in Thailand take a look at the refs closely. Hes probably giving the fighter shit even though hes not stopping the action.

Thoug, like lb said, some supposed throws aren't really throws at all.

Thas why I use " alot with the word.

lkf-over the inside leg not allowed. The leg can be used to off balance and then attack for example but just pulling over it is not.

"Monkey-no it sure as heel doesn't meet my deffinition. Nor do a snakes have legs. Some people might call lizards snake but in my world they are just lizards."

Uhhh snakes are lizards. What are you trying to say?

word play or topic??

lets try to stick to the topic please

I was telling Mark in Ax chat that I just had an argument with someone recently about this. I think it was a guy who competed in an amateur MT match in Oregon. He was talking all about MT throws, so I butted in and told him what I know, that there really aren't 'throws' in MT, but more well-timed twisting and off-balancing type moves that end with the fighter falling on their butt, or their back. He argued with me for about a minute until I brought up Ax and showed him this thread :-) I said "look...even professional fighters and trainers argue about this topic."

I don't think there are many pro MuayThai trainers or fighters arguing with me here...some might disagree, if they do speak up :)

Mr lkf-you are mostly SS right?

Ok back on topic Mark. So if it does not meet your dfinition then it is therefore wrong? Just to be sure let me clarify so that you are not confused. Muay Thai for you is defined by a set of rules? And if so any failure to adhere to rules acceptable to you is therefore wrong. HBy the way lots of people pro and amatuer disagree with you here but they don't post it or you need to reread what has been said already in this thread.

Many throws in Muay Thai were discarded in the stadiums because they were quite simply too dangerous. Many involved grabbing the lower back and hyper extending the spine. This combined with rotational movement caused many back and lower spinal injuries. I am informed that, to make the sport safer, the throws were analysed and those that were more likely to cause spinal injury were removed.

The clip quite clearly shows the fighter being grabbed in the thoracic region and his back being hyper extended before he is thrown. This is quite simply illegal. If you are judging by the standards of the Thai national stadiums.
If you are to throw an opponant, you have to grab around the upper back and simultaneously drive your opponant backwards. You can also turn and drop them in the grapple, but both techniques should be followed with an effective striking technique to score.

Someone mentioned sweeps, it is my understanding that you can kick the leg away with any part of the front of your shin. Though if you use your calf muscle or the back of your leg to sweep the opponant, this is an illegal move.

I'm seeing Tony Myers today so i'll ask him to respond to this one. As his answers are always more well researched than my own, I also know he has reffed at Lumpini and many of the Kings cup shows recently. So his information should be up to date. This said, what he will say will only be relevant if you are judging the standards by the same criteria as in the stadiums. There are so many differant associations with differant rules, although stating the obvious, this is where the problem lies.

Thanks Charlie, I look forward to hearing from Tony Myers. Great post by the way.

Yes Tony Myers knows his stuff AND explains and words it extreamly well.

Charlie-well said yourself though. I am not sure when they started taking what out but what you said makes sense.

I hope he does post...

Mark L, in my sport, you can pick someone over your head and dump them. So we have a lot of throwing options, but when we agree to a Muay Thai rules match, we agree to the rules, as EXPLAINED TO US, like I said, Fred Fitzgerald is supposed to be certified by Thailand, have ref'd over 100 matches there and so whatever he tells us are the rules, we abide by them. If for some reason he said you can't hook with your right arm, we'd never really know, we just agree to abide by the rules...

Make any sense?

We were told that was legal, we've done it, and we've never had a problem with it. We were told not to bend the back BACKWARD and so we don't do that, even though we do it ALL THE TIME IN SAN SHOU...

Why throws are considered so "dangerous" in a sport with elbows and knees to the face I don't know?

I think it's because you can't break someones back with an elbow to the face

Monkey and Mark L
Thank you for the kind words.
I've spoken to Tony Myers and he's moaning like hell, because when he comes on Ax he can never get off. One question leads to another and he doesn't want to get drawn into a long discussion. He did say that he would answer this question, but it might not be until Tommorow.

All the best my friends.

Charlie

OK, since Tonys objection to Ax is taking too long I will share this.

I specifically asked him about over the inside leg. We are on the same page there.

To keep it simple its not allowed. There is a time and place however.

I do think a large number of the posts on ax discuss valuable and interesting topics that need debating, and I am keen to contribute. It’s just at the moment I am very busy with work and don’t have the time to respond as often as I would like to. So, I intend to make this contribution, and then not respond to any comments that are posted as a result of the post.

Having read some of the threads posted it appears that some of the disagreements may be simply down to semantics. The word ‘throw’ is a linguistic label people attach to a concept; in this case to a particular group of techniques that involve one boxer causing their opponent to end up on the canvas. If you look at various versions of rules from Thailand, (or rather the English translations of them) some specifically identify throws as illegal (see below). However, it is the specific action involved in the ‘throw’ that determine if it is legal or illegal within the current rules. Whether you choose to call a particular technique a throw or not is down to interpretation, but there are both legal and illegal ways of putting an opponent down in MuayThai.

The written rules, or at least the English translations of the rules, in my experience, are not necessarily as comprehensively detailed, or as clearly translated as they might be. However, here are some rules on fouls associated with throwing techniques, from a variety of prominent Thai governing bodies, Amateur and Professional:

The World MuayThai Council Rules (WMC, 1995) do not explicitly mention throws as being illegal. In section 18 (the section that outlines foul and strikes violating the rules) rule 18.2 only suggests “wrestling, back or arm locks or any similar judo or wrestling hold” are illegal. However, in the Board of Boxing Sport Rules (Sport Authority of Thailand, 2002) rule 16.2 states that, “throwing, back breaking, locking opponent’s arms, using Judo and wrestling techniques” are all violations of the rules. The Amateur MuayThai Association of Thailand, the Federation of Amateur MuayThai of Asia, and the International Federation of MuayThai Amateur’s rules for Amateur MuayThai competition include rule 17 b (2) which suggests that “a throw on an opponent, a back breaking manoeuvre, an intentional fall over, a judo or wrestling throw to an opponent” are fouls.

By reading the rules detailed above the situation may appear confusing; particularly if you only have the written rules to inform a particular opinion. Howver, which methods of putting an opponent on the canvas are legal and which are illegal are clear cut to referees, trainers, fighters and the betting public in Thailand; even if they are not clearly explained in official rules.

The following “judo and wrestling” moves are fouls (Board of Boxing Sport, 2002):

a) A boxer wraps his leg around the leg of their opponent from the inside or the outside and forces their opponent to the floor.
b) A boxer locks an opponent’s neck and executes a hip to shoulder or hip throw
c) A boxer grabs their opponent’s hip in a waist lock and throws using a hip throw
d) A boxer grabs an opponent’s arm, turns and uses their calf and back of their thigh (hamstring muscle group) to sweep an opponent’s legs from under them.
e) A boxer grabs an opponent and falls backward to throw their opponent
f) A boxer attempts a rugby style tackle on the legs and waist of an opponent
g) A boxer grabs their opponent’s waist from behind, then, placing a leg between their opponent’s legs, pulls their opponent backwards over their leg and hip
h) A boxer grabs their opponent from below the waist, lifting and throwing
i) A boxer catches their opponent’s leg and uses their other arm to push them off balance while taking more than two steps
j) A boxer catches their opponent’s leg and uses their calf muscle to trip/sweep an opponent off their feet
k) A boxer ankle trips their opponent
l) A boxer leg sweeps their opponent using the calf or inside of their foot
m) A boxer traps their opponent’s arms in a waist lock, lifts their opponent and throws
n) A boxer grabs an opponent from behind, lifts and throws
o) A boxer grabs around an opponent’s lower spine and hyper-extends their back in a “back breaking” move

These fouls are possibly better illustrated visually so I have(hopefully, if I can upload them)attached some illustrations used to identify illegal techniques at the Board of Boxing Sport MuayThai Training course for Judges and referees.

As far as scoring goes, legal “throwing or off balancing“ techniques that are followed by a strong technique score (very good point), even if the attempted technique misses due to the boxer being falling to the floor before the technique lands (although not as good a score as if contact is actually made). Otherwise throws only score in the sense they show who is stronger. For example if two boxers were even going into the last round and things were even in that round, but then one boxer ‘threw’ the other boxer on the floor, that boxer would be winning, unless the other boxer could do the same.

Why are certain throws illegal in MuayThai?
It is my understanding that there are two reasons certain throws are illegal. The first reason concern safety; some throws offer the possibility of lasting or permanent damage (cuts from an elbow heal relatively quickly). Other throws are excluded because they are considered to be techniques from other martial arts and not MuayThai. This last point is a contentious issue, some trainers in Thailand feel that the art of MuayThai is being eroded and more and more techniques are being taken away by the rules. For example, Kon Khun Yak Pa Nang is a traditional technique that involves a hip throw; MuayThai not judo.

Hope this adds something to the debate.

Thanks Tony that made a lot of sense and that was the best explanation so far actually.

"Why are certain throws illegal in MuayThai?
It is my understanding that there are two reasons certain throws are illegal. The first reason concern safety; some throws offer the possibility of lasting or permanent damage (cuts from an elbow heal relatively quickly). Other throws are excluded because they are considered to be techniques from other martial arts and not MuayThai. This last point is a contentious issue, some trainers in Thailand feel that the art of MuayThai is being eroded and more and more techniques are being taken away by the rules. For example, Kon Khun Yak Pa Nang is a traditional technique that involves a hip throw; MuayThai not judo. "

Safety concerns I can somewhat see as this is a ring sport and not a nice padded mat one. It also makes one wonder if muay thai is more and more defined by sports rules and is in fact losing much of it's identity because of it. A great post and it is very interesting.

I have had problems uploading the last three illustrations. These include hyper-extension of the spine ("back breaking" move), Catch the leg and trip and some lift and throw techniques.


Apologies

Tony

Ahhh. Tony's post is a feast for the eyes.
Ive seen those same cartoons before.

So the mists dont clear - we just get to see the mist more clearly. Brings us back to the point of the thread: how do we best advise our fighters when the rulebook says one thing and the judge says another?

nuff said

excellent Tony-well said well worded and right on the money!

First, can't help but say, wow, your illegal stuff looks like our san shou manuals LOL :)

Second, I have a real question, again, from reading what you have written I wonder if what Fred told us was TRUE, ie "throwing" over the inside of the leg is legal

The foot stays on the ground, we aren't lifting the person off the ground, we just hold them over the waist and turn our body and they go down... in fact it is less of a "throw" than the pic below

TonyMyers-I was hoping he'd mention this one.

Because of your question lkf I specifically asked TonyMyers about this one as I have heard Fred DOES know what he is talking about, although I believe it to be illegal.

If you used the front leg at the start, pulled them a little to off balance them, pulled the leg back and kneed them then that is ok.

If you just stick your leg out and pull them over it it is not allowed.

TonyMyers writes:

"You are correct in saying that it is a foul to use your thigh (or hip) to throw a fighter over. Well that is not strictly true; it can depend on how you define 'using' your thigh. You can't leave your leg or thigh in-place and throw the boxer over it, but you can use it to initially off-balance an opponent and then throw them down, as long as the thigh is not left in place."

Maybe save you some time Tony :)

well, it's confusing, but it makes for good conversation :)

In what way confusing? In that Fred told you something different? Of the rules and examples Tony posted?

let me see if I can explain to you what we do, that Fred said was legal, which we have done, which he never said we couldn't do

Say we clinch up with our left leg forward, the plum/grab the neck, we grab around the waist, we DO NOT bend them back, we do not pick them up, so far so good according to what I read above

BUT, we step forward with our right leg to the outside of the other guy's leg, at the same time we turn our body to the right, so we "throw" them over that right leg.

According to the above, that is illegal, yet Fred said it is legal and never stopped us from doing it. We purposely don't hip or shoulder throw or hook the legs because that is illegal and we WANT to abide by the rules...

I don't get why Fred's explanation and actions are not in line, since he is usually right on....

Make sense?

I don't know...

An example, that many may have on tape(Ramba/Somdet/M-16 'greatest hits'), is Ramba(Somdet) vs Rambong. Ramba dumps Rambong in the manner you are discribing(if I understand you correctly). The ref tells Ramba not to do it(he tells him not to do a few things in this fight actually). Its the first fight on the tape where Ramba loses on points. The second one on the tape is also Ramba/Rambong and Rambong KO's Ramba in round 1.

Maybe you have this tape..watch the ref give Ramba shit. In MuayThai the ref doesn't stop the action to often and certainly not for long. Watch his expressions and his actions(I believe he kinda uses his arms to show what Ramba did wrong) but he does not stop the action.

Anyone else with this tape-is this what lkf is discribing, you think?

lkf-if you have the tape then you can answer that. :)

I don't have that tape, and I'm not arguing, I just find it strange that for years we've done that "throw" and no one ever bothered about it, especially not Fred???

Oh well....

I don't think you are arguing. :) However I believe what I've been taught and Tony and I have talked some. As far as I know Fred knows his stuff well. All I'm doing is giving you what I can.

This is a perfect example. I think as coaches, fighters, officials, promoters etc of MuayThai we should try to know the rules, no?

I think this fight is a first hand example. Its not someone saying one thing and another trying to discribe something. Its a fight, with experianced fighters and officials who know their stuff. The ref clearly tells Ramba not to do what he did. It also falls into what I've been taught and what Tony has said.

Actually I think I'm getting mixed up on the tape...

Ramba does do it...but I'm not sure I'm thinking of the right time with the refs reaction.

I still say its not allowed though and if you watch the ref you should see it.

i found some Muay Thai throwing to theres a link at www.beltinthering.com i think (surch arond for it) any ways its www.payuth.de or something and it should have a section were they got a bunch of pics in the left hand corrner one called "Lime Long" i think (Thai Grappling prity much) any ways they got some intresting Throws and submissions in there but you have to click on the last list of teck because the first 5 or 6 are all brake falls and dogeing ( i think) its prity wired for a Muay Thai site. oh and bye the way for you san da guys i've seen sites sayin no knees and elbows or some times with knees and some times with elbows or that they don't normaly use elbows or knees but train in them now, or they say it was created by the chines military or its part of most other chines MA. well any ways its confuseing. and if your saying Muay Thai rules are confuseing why don't ya worrie about get your own rules down first.

i found some Muay Thai throwing to theres a link at www.beltinthering.com i think (surch arond for it) any ways its www.payuth.de or something and it should have a section were they got a bunch of pics in the left hand corrner one called "Lime Long" i think (Thai Grappling prity much) any ways they got some intresting Throws and submissions in there but you have to click on the last list of teck because the first 5 or 6 are all brake falls and dogeing ( i think) its prity wired for a Muay Thai site. oh and bye the way for you san da guys i've seen sites sayin no knees and elbows or some times with knees and some times with elbows or that they don't normaly use elbows or knees but train in them now, or they say it was created by the chines military or its part of most other chines MA. well any ways its confuseing. and if your saying Muay Thai rules are confuseing why don't ya worrie about get your own rules down first.

not trying to start a MT vs SS thing just saying

Ling Lum is 'monkey style' that is my namesake of muay thai. It is the crazier stuff from old style muay thai inclduing climb up knees and elbows.

So when the rulebook says one thing and the ref/judges say another.......wot we tell our fighters?

Tell them 'sorry you're screwed', I guess.

G.... SanDa is the professional variant of SanShou... no shinguards or armour/head gear is required, knees and elbows are allowed.

Others.... to my understanding throws are noted while scoring, providing that no joint lock application is used and as long as there is no use of the hip to execute the throw. Ruling out the hip useage effectively eliminated the judo orientated throws being used by the japanese fighters on which emerged on the Thai scene.
Please note that any throw will be taken into account whilst judging, UNLESS the referee calls the throw an illegal move. (when im judging that is)

San Shou has has a professional division for along time. Sanda has also had an amatuer division as well.

.......And just to add to an earlier post where some1 said that the judges should be judging accoring to the rules......

If im judging, and i see a sly headbutt, or a knee to the groin, and the Ref doesnt see it, do i note it on my scoresheet?, do i jump up and take a point off? Do i leap up between rounds and tell the fighter and his corner that if he does it again hes out of there?..... no... I just score the round in accordance with my observations, and direction of the Ref. I may have a word to the Ref in the break, but its up to the ref to call the fight.

Excellent point Mark.

.......And just to add to an earlier post where some1 said that the judges should be judging accoring to the rules......

If im judging, and i see a sly headbutt, or a knee to the groin, and the Ref doesnt see it, do i note it on my scoresheet?, do i jump up and take a point off? Do i leap up between rounds and tell the fighter and his corner that if he does it again hes out of there?..... no... I just score the round in accordance with my observations, and direction of the Ref. I may have a word to the Ref in the break, but its up to the ref to call the fight.

(sorry bout the double posting)

Monkey... to clarify my comment re Sanshou/Sanda (and i apologise for mentioning this when it probably should be in another thread)

IWUF is the main sanctioning body (for want of a better word) for Sanshou in China. Under IWUF.. the status of SanShou and SanDa is as i earlier posted. Other bodies around the world, and perhaps in China, may well run amateur and pro versions of either (not that i can figure out why!!) but IWUF is THE main body and the one that I am involved with. There may well be an ISKA or WKA or whatever version of Sanda which runs pro and am divisions, I dont know. Different countries/organisations seem to be able to dissect things and put them back together how they prefer to have them... maybe not alot unlike the world of Boxing.

Cheers

MarkCr

ya i know i heard san da and san shou are pro and am version of each other and i've also read that there the same thing. well any ways its realy not that big of a diffrence to me.

any ways them set of drawings were illigal muay thai teckneques right in the modern sport rules?

oh and bye the way what would posibly be the differnce between San Da and Shootboxing then? (other then the spandex pants)

Shootboxing has submission techniques as well : including chokes, joint locks and manipulations. All submissions must be performed standing though and not on the ground. By the way it was cool to see Doi, Dawson and Sower represent Shootboxing in full shootboxing regalia.

at K-1 MAX I should say.

You guys have taken this thread way off topic...

G-theres alot of moves taught or shown on sites etc that are not allowed now a days...

I'm not sure where any rules have been contradictory...maybe not clear.

Then again I don't know the rules from the thousands of organizations that do 'MuayThai'.

The rules for MuayThai are pretty standard through out Thailand and the top orgs I think. What MuayThai is is pretty clear and straight forward.

Different countries have different rules and some organizations take things out for safety reasons or legal reasons etc...I don't think you should be able to really add anything...not like throws anyway.

I mean in American football you could change the size of the field...have different # of downs but you can't change how you play the game except flag for safety...right?

ya i know mark but i guess i was just showing that throws are part of the style but not the sport

ok monkey thanks for the shootboxing vs san da clearance. but i have seen them shootboxing ones witch go to the ground (wired looking with boxing gloves) but i've seen shootboxing with no ground fighting too, (or think they were) but any ways don't get to in depth with this topic. any ways hope i din't come off as trying to start shit with you san da guys.

ya and i guess MT is prity simp hell lets see if i can do a basic run down of all the rules:

No groin shots, no hip throws, no joint locks, "shooting' in for the lages and no triping the lage out, but you can Kick the lage out. 5 second in the clinch if theres no action.keep the shots standing up.

there other then if elbows in differnt parts of the world thats prity much it.
other then time limets, what people should ware, and all the tiney little bits it realy is a no brainer.

I think the 5 seconds is simply a guideline. I think a good ref could often break it up faster than that.

If both fighters aren't going to be kneeing or if one is clinching to take a break/tie up but not working or going to work in the clinch the ref should break it right away.

Thats one problem. kickboxing refs have been told to let the clinch go...say for 5 sec. Thats good as they use to break up action. But I see many times where one or both fighters are getting tied up and not doing anything and the ref waits 5 seconds...thats a long time with nothing going on. I think its a guideline. You may get fighters working a little for position(no strikes/atempted 'throws') and that could be no action but they are working towards action. Then you get fighters just standing there or trying to tie up...the ref should break it up right away I think in these cases.

I think little bully, in explaining how Jongsanan teaches, give us a good base of understanding on the 'throws'.

I can't find it for looking...

Little Bully-do you know where you posted that...Ijust looked everywhere...

Basically I think she said-Jongsanan doesn't teach any 'throws' just pulls to unbalance or take advantage of the unbalanced.-well kinda along those lines...right? :)

IF this turns into a SD vs MT thread or a SD sucks thread, no point in continuing, I thought we were pretty much on topic, ie what is legal and the side issue of WHY....

As I said, I just asked why we'd done something in the past that we were told was legal, they let us do, but might be illegal, that's all

lkf-I don't know...

Mark L, yes, I know you aren't sure of the exact answer, I have no problem with that, it was what made for good conversation, I was referring to the other stuff

Take care

by the way, speaking of older Muay thai having throws, I ran across this pic today

by the way, speaking of older Muay thai having throws, I ran across this pic today

There are lots of things taught and done that are not allowed in the ring...the more serious the fighter the less they'd do them over all. I have seen some fighters do quite a few illegal things.

In MuyatHai 3 of the same foul(including holding the ropes) is grounds for DQ. However different fouls, depending on what they are etc can go on a bit as you'll see with Ramba vs Rambong.

yes, we do elbows in the gym even though only the pro's use them in competition, etc

funy about what you say as we have a saying in San Da - everything is legal ONCE, meaning a lot of guys foul once knowing they can get away with it,

G, you may be thinking of the Frank Shamrock promotion of the same name. That was MMA.

lkfmdc thanks for the pics.

oh no i was thinking of the Shootboxing not Shoot Box, the one with boxing gloves and tights in japan and stuff, not MMA with that pit-like-mat.