water or no water



i have someone that trains with me that used to train with another club and they told me during training that they were not allowed to drink any water



i always let my students have drinks i tell them to make sure that they always bring water to training



i was just wanting to see what other instructors thoughts are on this i have spoke to a few other instructors from different styles such as karate tae kwon do and judo and they told me that the instructor that is not letting there students have water should not be teaching and could be sued if someone collapses due to dehydration



thanks

Craig T

Do you realise how dehydrated you have to be to collapse because of dehydration?
Thats ridonkulous....

Lucasade say a 1% reduction in hydration can result in 20% loss in performance ...or something like that.

I dont teach like task-master anyways so if someone wants a breather and a sip of water its no problem.

i understand about the dehydration bit
noi
it just the bit about not letting them have a we time out for a breather and a drink

I had this one last night when taking a class for somebody else. I asked the guys not to keep stopping and taking drinks. They think I said they are not allowed drinks - but it is more to do with the disruption caused during training specially with a lot of novices around when all stop when they want and take a drink.

There should be structured water breaks through the class for beginners on the indication of the trainer so they learn the discipline of training and when breaks should be taken. Not when your all doing a 3 minute round and trying to get people to push a little harder.

Fighter training sessions are usually different as fighters tend to be more aware of when they need to take a drink.

Surely people can take a drink between pad rounds etc?

Its ludicrous to not allow that, and dangerous as well, especially in the current heatwave.

I didnt realise it showed you were a tough guy if you could not drink water for an hour whilst training?

when i started training we were told not to drink during training...or for an hour after he he!

and yes we did it!

mind you it was that long ago water had just been invented.

my old boxing coach used to not let us drink water during training but he was real old school and stuck in his ways he was like the old coach in rocky lol

what is the reasoning behind that?

that was written too in that panya kraitus handbook not to drink water, thats why u got kidney stones richard, always drink water its why the thais keep u topped up with it between pad rounds in bkk too

Old school we used to get quick drink when we were told. Now students think its some sort of interval and relaxation session not 30 seconds for a swig then back to it.

im not sure why he didnt allow it phil i was just a kid at the time,im guessing he wasnt very clued up on weight loss and had something to do with that,but he changed his view on it eventually..

i have been told that not being able to drink during training encourages you to drink more water before training so you are properly hydrated before. Also been told it helps fighters give the mentality to push on through hard rounds when competing when not drinking during training, then obviously drinking 50 million litres of water after the session lol dont know what scientific statements will counteract that but seems to work for some people

I think Herrcutt has answered this bang on and agree with Mattyb about drinking well before too. I give them a chane to get a drink after warm up when getting gloves and pads etc, and then when they put them away ready for a conditioning finish to the class. It is about disciplining them not to take the pee to stop, walk of the mats and drink like a fish every time they start to sweat... I swear some people think they are fish.

Thats fair enough, but whats the problem in getting a quick swig in between rounds?

You shouldn't have to depend on water inbetween rounds. I have seen it in the past, and some take pee still messing about getting their drink, running to toilet filling bottles up, spillages, having a quick sit down, and not being ready when the round actually begins. Just my opinion though lol

Imo and classes?
personally it used to be NO water
you drink before
you drink after

Now im a little more relaxed about it
but still remain in the stance above but with the below
"maybe in the middle somewhere is ok"

what if your in a Race or the desert or middle of a fight?
you dont stop for water
you Fuel / water up / prep: before you go
and again at the end
"maybe in the middle somewhere is ok"
is acceptable

why the hell can you not last an hour without a drink? derrrrrrrrr

jeeez maybe and yes if a 1.5 hour or 2 hour session then yes

sandy does that come from master skens teaching? because 2 people told me exactly same thing i.e before and after training, and both of whom were origionally taught by master sken?

You fight 3 min rounds with 2 mins break for attention, ice and water. We train 3 min rounds 1 min rest and people can take a drink in between rounds as long as they are back on the mat to start next round.

Training in Thailand you have your ice bucket and water at the side of the ring and are watered after every round if poeple want to drink and in this current heat then let them, infact I believe we should be encouraging fluids we dont want any one to colapse due to lack of fluids.

some good points there
i do water breaks after warm up
then water in between pad rounds
but i do get anoyed when some of them take the piss and are not redy for the next round to start

if thay are not ready i give them a forfit such as press ups sits ups or burpies till the others have finishe the next round

To be honest I was taught originally - no water !!

even these days I still train in a spinning class and all have drinks on the bikes !! I never have one and sweat like a pig. Always drink before and after. Same when doing any cardio.

I am curious becauise was told in school PE / rugby ect not to drink water as it gives stomach cramps ??

I think threr is a diffrence between "glugging" loads of water during a class and taking a few mouthfuls/sipping in between rounds.Most coaches in ANY sport would recommend fluid intake? It is 2009!
I have a bottle of water and just take a mouthful now and again over 1.5hours.Again its down to choice,But remember again we are not Thai.

David Mc and Craig, thats my take on it as well.

It`s seems very archaic to think no water is the best way. Water itself gives us a boost of energy, surely its better to constantly have a topped up tank than be running on empty on the dregs?

Must be condusive to a more productive training session?

I've not read the full post but water is a nessarity for basic bodily function. Yes you should be well hydrated proir to going training but allowing students to become dehydrayed during training is just asking for trouble.
You MIGHT be fine during the class but i would suggest your recovery COULD be severaly damaged. Drinking a large bottle of water after class isn't the way forward, small regular about amounts allow the body to 'use' the fluid.
In the 'old' days people thought it made you 'ard but there is nothing 'ard about inpairing the ability for your brain to function properly!!! :-)
Even more important in this weather!!!

...... But students shouldn't use fluid breaks as an excuse to be late for the next round!!!! If the drink is ready, a swig only takes 15secs!!!
We can drink during class but normally ask as we do so if we weren't instructed!

Although agree with Cadden, you need to be very dehydrated to collapse but is poss, and more so if the student came to train without prior hydration!

Doesnt it depend on your aim ?
if your over weight for a fight (guilty sometimeshaha)
Training without drinking and a sweatsuit on cuts the weight if its a close fight.
Normaly i drink but week before a fight i dont ,
although had to in Tonys once cause my body went disabled! lol
hands turned into claws and my leg spazzed ,
lmao robbo shouting "stand on it" didnt help -_-

*close to a fight

I just think that some people also rely on this inbetween rounds, and then if it is not there (ie. you work them harder with no rest, they have no water, etc) they all go to pot... "Oh my god I have no water, I am not going to make it".

I swear water to some people is like the 'magic sponge' to kids when playing footy, or plasters to toddlers. I suppose if it helps them feel focused for next round then great but they shouldn't have to rely on it.

Again, it is great if people don't take pee and drink quickly before round starts and good idea for a forfeit, but unfair on partner if they are not back in time to hold pads. Again, inbetween pads I like to quickly say afew words on what is missing or give new instructions... don't like talking to a persons back whilst they are walking off to sit and drink.

I am sure a compromise of letting them have a drink after warm up and after pads is better than being 'ard old school' no drinks and giving in to students to drink after every 2 or 3 min.

Its a 20 sec process.

Bell ends round, 7 secs to walk to bottle, 5 secs to take swig (thats all that is needed not loads of big gulps, a mouthful is enough if taken regularly), 7 secs back to sation/mate. You even have a second to spare!

Water is exactly a magic sponge as it revitalises you because you need it! Its the primary necessity of all life!

Liam R writes:

that was written too in that panya kraitus handbook not to drink water, thats why u got kidney stones richard, always drink water its why the thais keep u topped up with it between pad rounds in bkk too

that is exactly correct........that book had a lot to answer to...

also eating a palm sized peice of chicken and rice a day didnt help

nice pictures though.

Common sense should prevail and that would mean it depended on what type of class you were teaching. Hydration is important but in moderation, because of the simple adage, you can have too much of what at the time seems a good thing, and this itself can be depremental to performance. Adults are usually mindful of quantaties but sometimes children need monitoring. Keeping a well diciplined class is important too, so again childrens drink breaks should be structured. Another factory is gym humidity, I am sure my last nights fight class would not have been possible without drink stops, with the tempretures we are currently experiencing at the moment.

I don't see what your not getting - we know it is a short process in theory, but people take the pee and faff about. It is abit extreme to say how so important it is to have a drink every 2 minutes... and the magic sponge effect is great for youngsters just like saying the light stops monsters getting in the room, but for an adult your just wrapping them up in wool, losing discipline and regement in the class, and a fighting spirit to push through it.

1 hour class: drink before class, a drink after warm up / stretch after 15min, then a drink after pads 10min before end and then finish with whatever (conditioning, stretching) and another drink... and drink in moderation for the rest of the evening. I don't see how this is going to make someone suffer and collapse. God help them when cutting weight on fight days.

I get it, I just don`t agree.

I think the thought processes of such teachings are outdated and belong in the days of just having steak, egg and milk every meal.

As mentioned, i don`t think its tough to dehydrate yourself and go without fluid when your body needs it, I just think it`s daft.

This is what I mean about you not getting me, you have done it again... I too disagree with the old school methods and have gone through such sessions myself to and don't think it is necessary.

>> Drinking adequetly throughout the day, having a drink before class, and having 2 occassions to have a drink during a 1 hour class and then back to drinking water after class isn't dehydrating yourself and isn't daft...Do you disagree?

Manitaining abit of discipline and structure to a class is important. If a student needs more to drink then they can ask rather than assume they just leave the mats. If it is a killer session and intense then they can have a drink. I wouldn't say the above is out dated at all! It is in the middle - allowing students to have enough water at times we set and when we as instructors know are best without them being able to waltz on and off mats as they please. My classes are not traditional or strict - just like alittle respect and order in a class.

This is a forum for debate and people have different views, I am not funny in anyway (looking back some seem that way) - but your replys seem to challenge my posts but miss the points I make.

I am challenging your posts because I don`t agree, but it is nothing more than, as you say, a debate on your opinion and mine!

I undertand your points but think it wrong to have such a structured approach to fluid intake. Everybody is different, some people can motor through a class, some need a pep up quite often.

Having to ask is, in my opinion, a bit like putting your hand up at school to go to the toilet.

There will also be unfit beginners in a session who will be sweating and out of breath like mad after 2 rounds. They will need more fluid than some others but may feel inadequate if they have to ask to do this, gyms can be a 'macho' environment to some no matter how friendly you try to make them.

I`m not getting at you personally mate, I hope it doesn`t come across like that if it does and I apologise if so, I`m just trying to get my belief on the point in question across.

when i first started training in karate we could not trink untill after training we did fitness for one hour running, star jumps, sprints, press ups, and abbs, it was hard, i was only 12 when i started and as i grow up and lernt more about how the body works i gave it up at age 24 and whent in to muay thai, a trainer should look after his trainees not his ego. having disapline on the floor is a must in karate but we should allways keep our tranees full of fluids the best we can...interfull drnk brakes are good i know what you mean whitti you try and keep a disapline class if every one thought they could just walk of to get a drink when ever they liked a class could turn into a play group...but to any trainer trying to stop people from drinking through a whole training session should get over there egos and read a book on the body or talk to a trained fitness instructor, get out of that little box you are in,

That's cool mate - I am happy for you to disagree and do agree about beginners - hell I even let them sit down and take all excerises easy etc lol. I know importance of water and not just in training, thats why I drink 4ltrs a day and try and promote this habit to others.

Don't want to come across as an instructor that things he is a king on the throne, demanding to be called sir and is very strict. I like my classes to be energetic, lively, fun and friendly but expect afew things to keep the respect and order in class.

I mainly teach kickboxing and all my classes are structed when to have breaks and I am easy on beginners... works great. The MMA class is me and 2 others teaching and we never really had drinking times but it soon got out of hand with people wandering outside to get some air, in toilet filling water, sitting to side with water, others bringing water on mats and the rest left with no partners to roll with.

I say drinking times and structure... it isn't like at 7:17 and 8:11 you will drink for 60 sec lol. If in an MMA class of hour and half, we feel some need a drink, we call out for everyone to get a drink at same time... everyone goes off at same time rather than scattered at different times. All my students in all classes are always well hydrated and never had complaints - just make sure everyone goes at same times and if possible at logical times when people are going off mats to get/put back pads, equipement, etc.

Agree with you Lance - it is about getting best of both worlds. Keeping them hydrated and safe but keeping the class structured and as you say not letting it turn into a play group. I don't even like the term discipline because we all portray martial arts and discipline to traditional forms.

Phew lol
and 1 at a time
i will answer

mattyb writes:

sandy does that come from master skens teaching? because 2 people told me exactly same thing i.e before and after training, and both of whom were origionally taught by master sken?


Well sort of Yes, but Seeing as master Sken came from 30+ degrees and the Thai way of Water and ice between rounds etc:
He Cant take any Blame !






Next if as i say its a 1 hour class?
how the hell can you dehydrate?
lol
if you hydrate all day before a class
(We Are Not in Thailand training 7.00amam and 5.00pm )

if its 1.5 or 2 hours? then Yes

Also see my post on Off Topic re: "Its **** Warm / hot"

ref: to our weather
Jeez
youd be hard pressed to get a sweat on 9 months of the year its that colds and wet here lol

Get real !

i do feel that some Instructors are too far at the opposite end of the Scale too
Crippler.... im told Ronnie does water breaks every 10 or 15 mins?

Personally i think its too many and also it Interupts thre class flow and fluidity and also rythm and tempo of a class !

I dont mind after a 20 min( or 10 or 15 or 30 mins whichever we do on the night )
Warm up they can get a drink!
And they have All day to hydrate prior to class( 90+% of thai boxing classes in the uk Ers Eveenings / after work / school / college etc: fo most folk anyway )


Like craibator says
people use the drink thing as an excuse its a distraction method ! :-(

craigtabor writes:

some good points there
i do water breaks after warm up
then water in between pad rounds
but i do get anoyed when some of them take the"Micky" and are not ready for the next round to start



if thay are not ready i give them a forfit such as press ups sits ups or burpies till the others have finishe the next round


Good man i totally agree ! :-)))))))

my students take small amounts of water between rounds.as they would in competition. simple as!

Most people don't drink/rehydrate all day like they should do.So they come to train and are not "allowed" a mouthful of water.They will start feeling dizzy and light headed.I'm with Phil it takes 20 secs! And again "athletes" are coached to keep hydrated and fluid levels up? Especially in this heat,As well as winter!

I agree if people are disrupting the class or taking the mickey(taking ages)then get em told(it razzes me off and i'm not an instructor!)and if you need a p*ss have one before you start training you should be able to hold on for 1-1.5 hours during trainng. ;-)

when gettin closer to a fight i tend not even to bring a bottle of water with me lol

but in between rounds normally i dnt see the problem in havin a drink! as long as every1's ready for the next round to start i'd say go n hav a drink if needed! if any1 was to slack off though and take too much time i'd punish them with a fine of press ups or something or even punish everyone else for that person takin too much time.

cant not let people drink and rehydrate! thats just bonkers

I believe its 2% dehydration = 10% reduction in athletic performance with elite athletes.

Absolutely drink water. only times not to drink water are during/after eating (digestion) and if exercising just keep sipping.

Room temp

Thats another thing - I understand room temp water hydrates you quicker... but cold water sure feels good lol. What is the difference, is it minimal or a must to hydrate with warm water while exercising?

I have seen different studies that support both ways.

I believe room temperature absorbs better.

One of my teachers talked about conflicting studies in relation to this exactly. He suggested working out drinking room temp water and cold water on different days and after training shake your tummy around and see if you notice one sitting around more.

Interestingly and maybe not a coincidence, my 9 year old daughter really doesn't like cold water. Maybe its just her thing, maybe just a baby thing but maybe they are just more in touch... who knows..

I absolutely avoid cold cold water training or otherwise.

I could be totally wrong but if you are hydrated consistently maybe cold wouldn't have such a wonderful refreshing feeling.

If you notice dry mouth you are already dehydrated.

Good gage for most people... .5oz of water per lbs of body weight daily (that is just normal daily use without working out etc) absolutely add a pinch or two of unprocessed sea salt per litre (should not taste salty) help absorbtion, especially intracellular and help maintain electrolyte levels(plus a host of other things)... can also use things like lemon etc

Some people do mess about, with water, putting on their gloves etc..If they choose to stall and use it to waste time then they are the ones who loose out, as you know the more effort made the better the outcome. I would not allow this for fighters but for the casual keep fit person it is fine. My view is if they need water then they drink, regardless of when.

a lot of people are talking about fighters here
remember about 80 yo 90& DOnt fight
so whyt have 3 ? 5 rounds of water in a session
sorry its wrong imo
get used to not having it
and use the minimum

Its NOT a fight or run or copetition
its training !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
h e l l o

soz spell
a lot of people are talking about fighters here
remember about 80 to 90& Dont fight!!! only keep fit / workout / train etc:
so why have 3? 5 + rounds of water in a session????
sorry its wrong imo
get used to not having it
and use the minimum

Its NOT a fight or run or competition
its training !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
h e l l o

Exactly Sandy, its training. If you want to get the most out of training then your body should be fuelled to its maximumu capacity.

As I said before, are you training to get fight/get fit/general wellness or training to spend 3 days in the desert?

Going without water has absolutely no relevance on MT training, it just hinders performance and means training is not as productive as it could be.

If you know you need water you are already dehydrated.

so drink before and after

would you go on a Day trip / road trip
with a gallon of Petrol and stop everry fule station?
.... er nope
Fuel before you go
fuel in ther middle maybe and Defo again at the end so you can get home







simple as

The body only absorbs so much water at a time for one.

Also you don't want to drink water to close before eating and for a while after eating (maybe 20/20 min and about 2 hours) if you care about digestion.

If training hard I would eat as soon as possible.

Mix in food and training and not guzzling too much at a time - I think sipping while training is awesome!

Plus most people don't drink enough anyway... drink it.

If people are using it to kill time so be it.Without it do you think they won't kill time???

The killing time with glove play related to getting water is not about water but about them and or their relationship with them self, with training or the teacher.

IMO

The body is not a car... and its not a full or empty tank.

2% dehydration = 10% decrease in athletic performance with elite athletes.

Take 2% gas out of the car and you won't have any performance dropsuntill you are out.

Also the majority of westerners walk around chronically dehydrated... encouraging water consumption as opposed to stopping it in general is probably a good thing.. IMO

Agree with Mark 100%!!!

Exactly Mark!