a friend of mine was telling about some articles that she read that talks about health problems coming from soy in a person's diet. The articles that I read were mainly from a book that supposedly "exposes" problems that come from eating soy. I'm immediately skeptical about most bold diet claims like this, especially if someone is selling a book in the process.

What I did, though, was agree to cut soy out of my diet for a while to see if I notice any effects. Soy has been a major part of my diet sice I went Vegan about 5 years ago. 1 and 1/2 years ago, I stopped being vegan and started eating fish, eggs and some occassional turkey. However, soymilk and tofu has still remained a large part of my diet.

Has anyone else heard or read about health problems from consuming soy?

hello !

nope, never heard of any problems - the opposite to be honest.

And if there were problems, im sure that we would have heard something from japan - where they eat literally tons of soy everyday !

this is probably just the latest fad , sometimes when i look at food books in the shops, i feel like never eating again ! :)

ive been veggie for 14 years + training and never had any diet-related issues... i think . what sort of things was your mate talking about ?

n

Soy: The Dark Side of America's
Favorite "Health" Food

Jenny Smith, a secretary and receptionist, could not explain what was happening to her. She began to make mistakes in her work and suffer from memory lapses. She would type a word backwards without even realizing it and proofread right over her mistakes. Her speech was slurring and when she answered the phone. . . she didn't know what to say. One day she found herself walking across a busy intersection against the lights and didn't know how she got there.

Leslie Blumenberg went to pick up her mother at the airport and got lost coming home. Although she had lived in the area for years, she became completely disoriented. It took her two hours to find her way back to her house. She was also suffering from cognitive problems, her words would jumble when she tried to speak coherent sentences, and she forgot how to spell.
Leslie had been eating soy foods, lots of them, for three years. When she went off soy, her problems cleared up, her mind returned to normal. But Jenny Smith did not eat soy. Her problems cleared up only when she went on a diet and stopped eating bread. She discovered that she could eat homemade bread without any problem. But supermarket bread gave her brain fog.

Jenny had a thyroid problem and had been taking thyroxine for years. When her office connected with the internet, she went online to a thyroid site. There she learned that soy was a potent thyroid depressant and should not be consumed by anyone with thyroid troubles. Next trip to the grocery store, she began to read labels and discovered that every loaf of bread in the supermarket contained soy flour.

"Thyroid enlargement in rats and humans, especially children and women, fed with soyabeans has been known for half a century," according to Theodore Kay at Kyoto University in Japan. His 1988 study attempted to determine the amount of iodine required to prevent goitre in populations consuming soy foods. He found that small amounts of iodine could indeed prevent noticeable thyroid enlargement, but even large amounts did not prevent pathological changes to the thyroid gland. He also determined that the most potent goitrogens in soy cannot be removed by cooking.

Although scientists have known for many years that soy is goitrogenic, it was only recently that they were able to pinpoint the actual thyroid-depressing compounds. Researchers at the US Toxicological Laboratory in Arkansas found that the thyroid-depressing substances are isoflavones, the estrogen-like compounds found plentifully in the soybean.

This discovery came as a shock to the soy industry, which has heavily promoted these phytoestrogens as beneficial. It is the phytoestrogens or isoflavones in soy that are supposed to protect us from heart disease, cancer, osteoporosis and the discomforts of menopause. Yet in normal women consuming sufficient iodine, just 30g of roasted soybeans daily, containing about 38mg isoflavones, were found to depress thyroid function--less than the amount in two glasses of soy milk, two servings of tofu, or a handful of roasted soy nuts. In sensitive individuals, such as Jenny Smith, even small amounts of soy were able to provoke the mental confusion indicative of disrupted thyroid function.

ISOFLAVONES IN OUR FOOD

Bread with added soy flour, 2 slices 4 mg
Meatless chicken nuggets, 1/2 cup 15 mg
Soy hot dog 15 mg
Soymilk, 8-ounce glass 20 mg
Green soybeans, raw, 1/2 cup 20 mg
Miso, 1/4 cup 21 mg
Tofu, 1/2 cup 28 mg
Soy cheese, 1/2 cup 31 mg
Soymilk skin or film , cooked, 1/2 cup 51 mg
Tempeh, cooked, 1/2 cup 53 mg
Soybean chips , 1/2 cup 54 mg
Mature soybeans, cooked, 1/2 cup 55 mg
Dry roasted soybeans , 1/2 cup 128 mg
Revival soy-based meal replacement, 1 serving 160 mg

Further confirmation of soy's adverse effects on the mind comes from a recent study of Japanese Americans living in Hawaii. Professor Lon White found a significant statistical relationship between two or more servings of tofu per week and "accelerated brain aging." Those participants who consumed tofu in mid-life had lower cognitive function in late life and a greater incidence of Alzheimer's and dementia. What's more," said Dr. White, "those who ate a lot of tofu, by the time they were 75 or 80, looked five years older."

According to Jennifer A. Phillips, writing for Cambridge Scientific Abstracts, estrogens (including the phytoestrogens in soy) can block the efficiency of thyroid hormones. This is why women need more thyroid hormones than men and are more prone to thyroid troubles. Since thyroid hormone acts as a neurotransmitter, low levels can mimic psychiatric disease. Severe hypothyroidism can cause symptoms similar to Alzheimer's disease, including memory loss, confusion, slowness, paranoid depression and even hallucinations. Other symptoms of low thyroid function include fatigue, loss of hair, difficulties at menopause, digestive problems, constipation, infertility and brittle bones.

Individuals with low thyroid function are also prone to heart disease. Soy proponents claim that soy helps the heart because it lowers cholesterol. Yet in 1992, researchers at the National Heart, Lung and Blood Institute looked at every study that had been published about the risk of having high or low cholesterol and concluded that mortality was greater in women with low cholesterol than with high cholesterol. And a new study, published in the Lancet, suggests that high cholesterol levels are protective even for men. In any case, no study has ever offered direct proof that soy can prevent heart disease and in most of the major studies in which cholesterol levels were lowered through either diet or drugs, a greater number of deaths occurred in the treatment groups than in controls, deaths from stroke, cancer, intestinal disorders, accidents and suicide.
Scientists looking at the correlation of soy foods and "brain aging" have focussed on isoflavones, but there are a number of components in soy foods that can contribute to reduced mental function. One is phytic acid which blocks zinc absorption. Zinc is essential for proper functioning of the brain. Modern processed soy foods contain high levels of MSG, fluoride and aluminum, all of which are toxic to the nervous system. Furthermore, during processing, at least two categories of carcinogens are formed, lysinealanines and nitrosamines.

Other substances in soy can contribute to the digestive problems so common in individuals with thyroid troubles, including potent enzyme inhibitors that block the breakdown of protein, and lectins that are highly irritating to the digestive tract. These compounds tend to occur in higher amounts in genetically engineered soybeans.

When soy protein isolate was fed to rats, the animals required higher than normal levels of vitamins E, K, D and B12 and developed deficiency symptoms of calcium, magnesium, zinc and many other minerals.

Soy proponents claim that soy is a staple in Asia. A "staple" is defined as a major commodity, one that provides a large portion of calories in the diet, such as rice and fish in Japan, or rice and pork in China. The Japanese consume 150 pounds of fish per person per year, or almost one-half pound per person per day and a 1977 dietary survey in China determined that 65 percent of calories came from pork, including the pork fat used in cooking. By contrast, overall consumption of soy in Asia is surprisingly low. The average soy consumption in China is about 10 grams or 2 teaspoons per day. Levels are somewhat higher in Japan, averaging about 50 grams or 1/4 cup per day. In both countries, soy is used as a condiment or flavoring, and not as a substitute for animal foods. Seafood and seaweed in the Japanese diet provide sufficient iodine to counteract the negative effects of the isoflavones in soy.

In Asia, soy is mostly consumed in fermented form, but it is not considered an appropriate food for babies. When a mother is unable to nurse and a wet nurse is unavailable, her infant is given milk from cows or water buffalo. In the US, however, an estimated 750,000 babies per year receive infant formula made from processed soybeans. Parents use soy formula in the belief that is it healthier than formula based on cows' milk. In fact, when soy infant formula first became commercially available, manufacturers promised that soy formula was "better than breast milk."

Naomi Baumslag, Clinical Professor of Pediatrics at Georgetown University Medical College and an expert on breast feeding, cites many reasons for parents to avoid soy formula. "There is a great deal of scientific evidence that soy formula can be damaging to newborns," she says, citing high levels of phytic acid, enzyme inhibitors, lectins, manganese and phytoestrogens. High levels of manganese are toxic to babies because they lack the blood-brain barrier that develops later in childhood. Manganese overdose is associated with brain damage leading to violent behavior. Furthermore, soy lacks many factors that are essential to normal brain development including essential fatty acids, DHA-brain growth factor and cholesterol.

The most serious problem with soy formula is high levels of isoflavones. In Japan, soy foods contribute about 25-28 mg of isoflavones per day, or just less that one-half mg per kilogram of body weight. In American women, 45 mg of isoflavones or three-quarters mg per kilogram of body weight per day caused endocrine disruption after just one month. Babies fed exclusively on soy-based formula receive a dose that is four to eleven times higher, based on body weight. A recent study found that babies fed soy-based formula had 13,000 to 22,000 times more isoflavones in their blood than babies fed milk-based formula. Dr. Mike Fitzpatrick, a New Zealand toxicologist estimates that an infant exclusively fed soy formula receives the estrogenic equivalent of at least five birth control pills per day.

PHYTOESTROGENS IN DIETS OF INFANTS AND ADULTS

Average
Isoflavones
Intake Isoflavone
per Kg of
Body Weight*
Japan (1996 survey) 10 mg 0.17 mg
Japan (1998 survey) 25 mg 0.42 mg
Japan (2000 survey) 28 mg 0.47 mg
In Japanese women, causing thyroid suppression 38 mg 0.60 mg
In American women, causing hormonal changes after 1 month 45 mg 0.75 mg
FDA recommended amount for adults 75 mg 1.25 mg
In children receiving soy formula 38 mg 6.25 mg

* Assumed 60 kg for adults, 6 kg for infants

Fitzpatrick believes that soy feeding accounts for the alarming levels of premature maturation in girls. This was the same conclusion reached in 1986 by investigators in Puerto Rico, where early maturation is commonplace. The researchers expected to find a correlation with consumption of milk and meat and were surprised to discover that the strongest correlation was with soy infant feeding. Girls who had consumed large amounts of cow's milk as children actually had lower rates of early development.

In the US, one percent of all girls now show signs of puberty, such as breast development or pubic hair, before the age of three; by age eight, almost 15 percent of white girls and just under half of African-American girls have one or both of these characteristics, according to a recent study reported in the journal Pediatrics. Fitzpatrick believes that soy infant feeding disrupts hormonal development in the same way as environmental estrogens such as PCBs and DDE (a breakdown product of DDT), or the synthetic estrogen DES. The use of soy formula in the WIC (Women, Infants and Children) program, which supplies free formula to low income mothers, may explain the astronomical rates of early development in African American girls.

The consequences are tragic. Young girls with mature bodies must cope with feelings and urges that most children are not well-equipped to handle. And early maturation in girls is frequently a harbinger for problems with the reproductive system later in life, including failure to menstruate, infertility and breast cancer.

What are the effects of soy products on the hormonal development of boys? Male infants undergo a "testosterone surge" during the first few months of life, when testosterone levels may be as high as those of an adult male. During this period, the infant is programmed to express male characteristics after puberty, not only in the development of his sexual organs and other masculine physical traits, but also in setting patterns in the brain characteristic of male behavior. In monkeys, deficiency of male hormones impairs learning and the ability to perform visual discrimination tasks—such as would be required for reading—and retards the development of spatial perception, which is normally more acute in men than in women.
Learning disabilities, especially in male children, have reached epidemic proportions. Soy infant feeding—which floods the bloodstream with female hormones that could inhibit the effects of male hormones—cannot be ignored as a possible cause for these tragic developments.

Other problems that have been anecdotally associated with children of both sexes who were fed soy-based formula include extreme emotional behavior, depression, asthma, immune system problems, pituitary insufficiency, thyroid disorders and irritable bowel syndrome.

Why have parents not been alerted to the potential dangers of soy formula? The formula industry is large and powerful, able to influence the outcome of scientific research and wage successful publicity campaigns. A good example is a recent University of Iowa study, funded by the formula industry and published in the Journal of the American Medical Association, comparing the reproductive health of adults who had been fed soy- or milk-based formula as infants. The survey found that the soy group had higher levels or reproductive disorders, asthma and allergies. Females of the soy group were more likely to be sedentary and to have taken weight loss medications. Yet the authors omitted these findings in their abstract and concluded that ". . . the findings of the current study are reassuring about the safety of soy infant formula." The University of Iowa study was widely reported in the press as a vindication of soy formula.

The JAMA study follows a June 1, 2001 report published in Cancer Research which found that genistein, one of the isoflavones in soy, was more carcinogenic than the synthetic estrogen DES when exposure occurred during "critical periods of differentiation," such as during infancy. Medical professionals insisted that DES was safe for pregnant women until they discovered that women whose mothers took DES suffered from very high rates of cervical cancer. The authors of the Cancer Research study concluded that ". . . the use of soy-based infant formulas in the absence of medical necessity and the marketing of soy products designed to appeal to children should be closely examined."

Concerns about the dangers of soy have prompted consumer groups in New Zealand and Canada to call for a ban on the sale of soy infant formula. The law firm of Johnston Lawrence in New Zealand is collating a list of victims in preparation for a class action lawsuit in New Zealand, with follow-on legal action in the US. If you believe your child has been damaged by soy infant formula, or if you have suffered thyroid problems as a result of soy consumption, send your confidential information to PO Box 1213, DX SP 20004, Wellington, New Zealand or roger@johnlaw.co.nz.

sao

I kind've feel the same way that you do about it. I've known lots of vegetarians/vegans where soy is a major part of their diet. There are so many examples of people eating soy consistently and not having any major illnesses...so I'm skeptical.

For me, I'm testing out the avoidance of soy because I had an illness this year that I don't know the cause of. I'm also trying to reduce the amount of wheat in my diet, in case of wheat allergies (or gluten allergies) which are more common than people think.

If there is any kind of link, I'll bet it has to do with the individual and it has to do with moderation.

Yep, those moderators are always up to something :-)

well i'll only eat soy in very small quantities.there are studies done on infants being feed soy based formula compared to milk based,where many side effects from underdeveloped male organs to problems in brain development.
and if you don't think estrogenic properties in food and water doesn't effect life,read the articles from around the world on estrogens effect on male fish.

I've heard a few different theories on soy. Basically i think if you eat for your metabolic type then IF you can have soy and IF you eat only as much as you should you'll have nothing to worry about.

Is'nt it more of the fact that is pickled and not the source ingredients?

You mean tofu is pickled?

I can't think of any soy foods that are pickled. For Tofu, they add something acidic (lemon juice, vinegar, calcium sulfate or magnesium chloride (aka sea water extract called nigari) to soy milk to make the protein curdle. Then they press out the water. It's similar to the process of making cheese.

Here is some info on tofu coagulants

Brian your right, my bad. I was thinking Soy sauce was pickled as well. How is Soy Sauce made?
What are the most common forms of soy consumed in the East, what about North America

Soy sauce is traditionally a fermented soy mixture with wheat. That is what I know off the top of my head, but here is some additional explanation of the process.

A neverending source of info Mr Ritchie, thanks.

mmmm, well this is certainly thought-provoking stuff .

i do have some of the sympthoms listed above as coming from too much soy but the main reason i went veggie was cause i had asthma and was advised that less meat would help - and it did. he was a traditional chinese doc so don't shoot me down on the scientific basis to this :)

to be honest i cant imagine that loading my plate with cows or pigs could be any more healthy ?

it is scary tho so will be trying to eat more fish - but then you have to worry about mercury in fish so .... maybe being a fruititarian is the way to go ??! lol.

as far as babies go, IMO the only food to give new-borns is breast-milk, its worked for centuries and there's a reason for that. didnt even know you could get soy-formulas and a quick survey at the lunch-table showed that all mums either breast-fed or used milk-based formulas. to me giving kids soy is foisting your ethical choices on them.

mark l = what do you mean , eat for your metabolic type ? does having a fast or slow metabolism affect whether you should be veggie or carnivore ? explain please. thanks :)

n

ps

the main sympthom which jumped at me from your list was the brittle bones cause have broken the odd thing over the years. im going to have a bone density scan donw in feb so will be interesting to see what that shows up.

n

My sister in law just had her first child a few months ago. She has some sort of glandular problem which prevents her from producing very much breast's milk. Also, her son is severely lactose intolerant, so she's using Soy-based formulae in addition to the breast milk that she can product. She doesn't really have much choice.

Femented = Pickled

I think it does have a time and a place but as a rule of thumb I won't touch it.

Dr David Getoff has a food pyramid, one that is a little less controled by the food lobbies money (might be an understatement).

He has things on the pyramid that IF you are going to have... He's not saying have everything on it.

So the base is non-starchy veg then quality protein (meat)



third to top
Processed grain products...as infrequently and as little as possible

second to top
sweets, caffeine, alcohol (1-5 times a month)

top
standard soy foods
rarely IF ever



Soy mimics estrogen-in other words its like taking hormones
most people can't digest it either so you get digestive and elimination issues-which means you're more than likely to have hormone issues since stress hormones go up

So IF you know what you are doing I think it CAN be used to help balance hormone issues with women but to do so without testing and knowing wtf would be risky in my opinion.

Brian-I forget the details but just learned some bad stuff about soy formulas...remember most can't digest. You are also playing with hormones.

I don't know a ton in this area but I trust my sources and its something I am looking into more.

just took a quick look in www.mercola.com, typed in soy in the search and got a bunch of stuff.

Dr. Mercola stuff is good too. The articles come from good sources.

Dr. Getoff site is

www.naturopath4you.com I took a quick look but didn't see anything specific on it about soy but didn't look hard. His videos are suppose to be excellent on info though somewhat boring. Something I will be getting down the road.

I certainly wouldn't take the stuff untill I researched in indepth.

"Soy impedes the sexual maturation of boys (p. 335)
Soy accelerates the sexual maturation of girls (p. 339)
In newborns, the hormonal effects of soy may be irreversible (p. 333)
The average daily dose of soy estrogens in soy formula (38mg) is higher than the amounts that cause thyroid problems and endocrine disruption in adults (p. 334)"


these are talked about in "The Whole Soy Story" -Dr. Kaayla Daniel

Many of the studies (like so many others) that say soy is the savior of magic food for all are funded by the people who sell the stuff.

I would strongly encourage anyone to read some of the mercola articles and maybe read the book, especially if you are gonna feed the stuff to babies.

sao-basically yes-there is more to it but we all metabolize our foods differently and we all have different needs. There are othger threads on the subject

gotta run-wisdom tooth comig out

There are always different schools of thought and I try to make it make sense. In the process i always look to the source. I'm sure anyone can come up with tons of studies for and against soy (or anything). So untill I get deeper into a subject (though then too) I tend to go with a source that I trust. The more I learn and study the more able I think I am to pick them out.

Now there are different schools of thoguht and often emotional attatchments. I am not trying to say I'm right because of this.

I'm just saying I don't pick up any old book and think its the shit.

So if you aren't studying the subject I suggest avoiding it till you find out better. Especially giving it to babies.

Also looking at the source of the studies can get interesting though often hard to do.

I have been told that most soy studies saying its amazing come from the soy people. The book mentioned comes highly recommended to me also.

(of course as you know I have changed my mind over the years-that said though i think I'm getting more and more on the right track)

but I think, if not sure....avoid

http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/05soypolitics.htm

heres a little on where the money for studies comes from

MYTHS & TRUTHS ABOUT SOY FOODS

FAQ:

Myth: Use of soy as a food dates back many thousands of years.

Truth: Soy was first used as a food during the late Chou dynasty (1134-246 BC), only after the Chinese learned to ferment soy beans to make foods like tempeh, natto and tamari.



Myth: Asians consume large amounts of soy foods.

Truth: Average consumption of soy foods in Japan and China is 10 grams (about 2 teaspoons) per day. Asians consume soy foods in small amounts as a condiment, and not as a replacement for animal foods.



Myth: Modern soy foods confer the same health benefits as traditionally fermented soy foods.

Truth: Most modern soy foods are not fermented to neutralize toxins in soybeans, and are processed in a way that denatures proteins and increases levels of carcinogens.



Myth: Soy foods provide complete protein.

Truth: Like all legumes, soy beans are deficient in sulfur-containing amino acids methionine and cystine. In addition, modern processing denatures fragile lysine.



Myth: Fermented soy foods can provide vitamin B12 in vegetarian diets.

Truth: The compound that resembles vitamin B12 in soy cannot be used by the human body; in fact, soy foods cause the body to require more B12



Myth: Soy formula is safe for infants.

Truth: Soy foods contain trypsin inhibitors that inhibit protein digestion and affect pancreatic function. In test animals, diets high in trypsin inhibitors led to stunted growth and pancreatic disorders. Soy foods increase the body’s requirement for vitamin D, needed for strong bones and normal growth. Phytic acid in soy foods results in reduced bioavailabilty of iron and zinc which are required for the health and development of the brain and nervous system. Soy also lacks cholesterol, likewise essential for the development of the brain and nervous system. Megadoses of phytoestrogens in soy formula have been implicated in the current trend toward increasingly premature sexual development in girls and delayed or retarded sexual development in boys.



Myth: Soy foods can prevent osteoporosis.

Truth: Soy foods can cause deficiencies in calcium and vitamin D, both needed for healthy bones. Calcium from bone broths and vitamin D from seafood, lard and organ meats prevent osteoporosis in Asian countries—not soy foods.



Myth: Modern soy foods protect against many types of cancer.

Truth: A British government report concluded that there is little evidence that soy foods protect against breast cancer or any other forms of cancer. In fact, soy foods may result in an increased risk of cancer.



Myth: Soy foods protect against heart disease.

Truth: In some people, consumption of soy foods will lower cholesterol, but there is no evidence that lowering cholesterol improves one’s risk of having heart disease.



Myth: Soy estrogens (isoflavones) are good for you.

Truth: Soy isoflavones are phyto-endocrine disrupters. At dietary levels, they can prevent ovulation and stimulate the growth of cancer cells. Eating as little as 30 grams (about 4 tablespoons) of soy per day can result in hypothyroidism with symptoms of lethargy, constipation, weight gain and fatigue.



Myth: Soy foods are safe and beneficial for women to use in their postmenopausal years.

Truth: Soy foods can stimulate the growth of estrogen-dependent tumors and cause thyroid problems. Low thyroid function is associated with difficulties in menopause.



Myth: Phytoestrogens in soy foods can enhance mental ability.

Truth: A recent study found that women with the highest levels of estrogen in their blood had the lowest levels of cognitive function; In Japanese Americans tofu consumption in mid-life is associated with the occurrence of Alzheimer’s disease in later life.



Myth: Soy isoflavones and soy protein isolate have GRAS (Generally Recognized as Safe) status.

Truth: Archer Daniels Midland (ADM) recently withdrew its application to the FDA for GRAS status for soy isoflavones following an outpouring of protest from the scientific community. The FDA never approved GRAS status for soy protein isolate because of concern regarding the presence of toxins and carcinogens in processed soy.



Myth: Soy foods are good for your sex life.

Truth: Numerous animal studies show that soy foods cause infertility in animals. Soy consumption enhances hair growth in middle-aged men, indicating lowered testosterone levels. Japanese housewives feed tofu to their husbands frequently when they want to reduce his virility.



Myth: Soy beans are good for the environment

Truth: Most soy beans grown in the US are genetically engineered to allow farmers to use large amounts of herbicides.



Myth: Soy beans are good for the environment.

Truth: Most soy beans grown in the US are genetically engineered to allow farmers to use large amounts of herbicides.



Myth: Soy beans are good for developing nations.

Truth: In third world countries, soybeans replace traditional crops and transfer the value-added of processing from the local population to multinational corporations.



-Soy Online Service
www.soyonlineservice.co.nz

This site seems well researched and the article above well documented. I got to this site from a link from www.price-pottenger.org, a site I think is top quality. I think both Price and Pottenger were leaders in nutrition and health and have done much and are way underrated and under known.

Don-it seems to me that the properly fermented soy products can have a place in a healthy diet but they are usually used as toppings and condements etc

http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/soy_studies.html
Studies Showing Adverse Effects of Dietary Soy, 1971-2003

http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/soy_fda_testimony.html
Soy-Based Infant Formula: Concerns and Recommendations
Testimony presented to the US Food and Drug Administration

Too much water can do you damage too. Its probably more a matter of not overdoing it. I looked up a couple of the soy studies and alot of them are fairly shoddy. What i can gather from both sides of the arguement is that if you are healthy it can be a great food source. People, women in particular who are prone to hormone imbalance are better off not having soy to often as it can interfere with your hormones if your equilibrium is fragile. Individuals with fairly robust systems dont need to worry if its eaten in moderation. The studies that found big problems for soy eaters were testing people who were having soy as a very major part of their diet ie. 5-6 serves a day including soy milk etc. I would also try not to give young babies too much soy as their guts are still very under-developed and initally are only designed to process breast milk, I know this can sometimes be unavoidable.

I always wonder when there are such two strong opposing views. To me its obvious that the soy people have a lot to gain or loose. Those against soy don't generally seem to be giving and alternative... whats thier motivation?

Maybe I'm missing something but I think sources like The Price-Pottenger Foundation are thier to promote health.

The soy people are there to sell soy.

Maybe there is a finacial gain somewhere for someone and they have tricked some of the great researchers with studies... But I don't think as of yet.

I just took a nutrition course not so long ago and a couple things we were taught.

About 70% of soy is geetically engeniered (better get organic to be safe then cause thats a whole other ball of wax)

Obviously the estrogen like compounds will be mentioned many places. But we were specifically warned about soy baby products.

We were also taught a little about trisin inhibiters -stops break down in protein and messes up thyroid gland

also contains mineral blockers..

People that make money from getting results I tend to listen to before any study.

You only get to charge $500US/hr to make someone healthy from getting results or you'd go out of buisness fast.

"Experts Urge FDA Denial of Soy Protein and Cancer Health Claim

Solae Petition Omits Many Studies Indicating Carcinogenicity of Soy

June 22, 2004, WASHINGTON, DC: Experts have urged the FDA to deny a petition by Solae, a manufacturer of soy protein and other processed soy products, for a Soy Protein and Cancer Health Claim. The request was submitted by the Weston A. Price Foundation, a non-profit nutrition education foundation based in Washington, DC, on June 14, 2004.

Kaayla T. Daniel, PhD, author of "The Whole Soy Story" (released Fall 2004), noted that “Solae was highly selective in its choice of evidence and biased in its interpretations. It omitted many studies that show soy to be ineffective in preventing cancer, emphasized favorable outcome in studies when results were mixed and excused results of a few unfavorable studies that they included to give the illusion of balance. Most seriously, Solae omitted many well-designed studies that have suggested that soy protein can contribute to, cause and accelerate the growth of cancer.” The 50-page response lists numerous studies implicating soy protein as a contributor to cancers of the breast, prostate and gastrointestinal tract.

Solae, a joint venture of Dupont and Bunge, applied for a Soy Protein and Cancer Health Claim in March 2004. Approved health claims can be used in product labeling and packaging to influence consumers in making dietary choices. The FDA must reply within 270 days.

Sally Fallon, President of the Weston A. Price Foundation, points out that Solae has a strong financial interest in winning a cancer health claim. "In their petition," notes Fallon, "Solae states that since the FDA authorized the Soy Protein and Coronary Heart Disease Health Claim, per capita consumption of soy protein increased from 0.78 g/day in 1998 to 2.23 g/day in 2002. Solae predicts that consumption of soy protein will double with a cancer health claim. Solae stands to reap tremendous financial gain at the expense of the public."

“Numerous experts – including scientists from the FDA’s own National Laboratory for Toxicological Research – have warned of soy protein’s carcinogenic potential and of the health dangers of excess soy-food consumption,” says Bill Sanda, Director of Public Affairs for the Weston A. Price Foundation. “Yet in its petition, Solae contends that their data ‘establish that there is scientific agreement among experts qualified by scientific training and experience to evaluate such claims regarding the relationship between soy protein products and a reduced risk of cancers.’ No such consensus exists. The British Committee on Toxicity (COT) reviewed much of the evidence and found the results to be both 'inconsistent and contradictory.'"

Experts were particularly critical of Solae’s assertion that the “totality of the evidence” suggests that soy reduces the risk of breast cancer. “Numerous studies indicate that soy protein increases breast fluid, causes breast cell overgrowth and contributes to other abnormalities associated with increased breast cancer risk,” said Dr. Daniel. “Researchers at the University of Illinois and other institutions have shown that the plant estrogens in soy can stimulate human breast cancer cells. This last poses a special danger not only to people already diagnosed with breast cancer but those in the early stages prior to diagnosis.”

The British Committee on Toxicity (COT) has stated that “the epidemiological data on soy intake and prostate cancer are inconsistent” and that concentrations used in animal experiments are “very high compared with the likely dietary exposure levels in humans.” These studies not only show that soy foods are not protective against prostate cancer or less effective than other dietary agents, but also that soy protein – and its constituent isoflavones – have been linked to increased prostate cancer risk. In addition, they have caused undesirable side effects, including changes to the brain.

Solae also failed to present theories about why soy might be protective against the development of prostate cancer. “Prostate cancer is generally thought to be dependent on exposure to male reproductive hormone. If soy confers protection, it does so by altering endogenous hormone concentrations – by decreasing testosterone and androgen levels and feminizing men,” said Fallon. “While this might have valid pharmaceutical applications for cancer treatment, it seems inadvisable as a preventive treatment for our entire population of men and boys.”

Solae’s claim that soy protein prevents gastrointestinal cancer is contradicted by numerous studies, including one that links soy protein with a lowered risk of stomach cancer but a higher risk of colorectal cancer. Dr. Daniel adds that “Solae also omitted key studies that link the soy lectin – a component of soy protein – to precancerous conditions in the small intestines, including shortened villi, a diminished capacity for digestion and absorption, cell proliferation in the crypt cells, interference with hormone and growth factor signaling and unfavorable population shifts among the microbial flora.”

Solae states that “the totality” of the evidence supports a soy protein/cancer claim, a conclusion that Solae's consultants were able to reach only through a series of statistical studies known as meta-analyses. “Meta-analyses serve researchers – and their industry sponsors – when they wish to draw specific conclusions,” explains Fallon. “Meta-analysts have been criticized by many in the scientific and statistical communities for making faulty assumptions, indulging in creative accounting and for leaving out studies that contradict or dilute the conclusions desired. Solae has left out many such studies.”

Experts were also concerned about Solae’s summaries of the body of evidence concerning soy and other cancers. Solae chose to minimize a large-scale study linking soy protein to bladder cancer and it omitted evidence linking soy protein to thyroid and pancreatic cancers and to childhood leukemia. Solae also failed to address soy protein’s well-documented risks to the digestive, immune and neuroendocrine systems of the body, including strong evidence that dietary soy has contributed to rising rates of infertility and hypothyroidism. Soy is also highly allergenic. Most experts now place soy protein among the top eight allergens, and some rate it in the top six or even top four. Allergic reactions to soy range from mild to life threatening and fatalities have been reported in medical journals.

The request for denial is posted at www.westonaprice.org and includes numerous soy research studies that all soy consumers and doctors using or advising any type of soy supplementation should read!"

"Sans Soy! The Truth about Soy and the Human Body"

By Paul Chek
www.ptonthenet.com
http://www.ptonthenet.com/displayarticle.aspx?ArticleID=2399

this is a membership site with loads of good articles from loads of top guys.

http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/complaints.html

Hi,

The stuff below is more about soy protein but I think its relevant to our conversation.

In addition to kickboxing I'm getting back into weight lifting. To achieve my goals I've taken a good look into protein supplementation. I'm not talking any frankenstein products here (you know the ones that promise your veins to pop-out and all that). I'm talking about pure protein with some chocolate flavouring at most. After I went throught almost a tub of whey protein (consumed one of the oldest and most tested brands internationaly) I felt fairly bloated and to be honest didn't notice any effect.

I did some research and found a few interesting articles on Soy Protein Isolate. Just working on my first tub now so can't comment on any of the content. I'd love this to be true as I see it as a convinient and ethical(not eating unnecesary amounts of meat to achieve my protein intake) source of protein.

I've attached a link for all to read. Its a bit body building focused but it does make references to research papers and raises a few good technical points. Long but worth the read:
http://www.timinvermont.com/fitness/soyvswhy.htm

Did you see who funded the study?

Let us know if you feel boated on this one and any results etc.

"The bad news is that if you think a model or bodybuilder's physique looks too good to be "real," then you're absolutely right IT DEFINITELY IS TOO GOOD TO BE REAL! The good news is that now that you know this little secret, with some chemical wizardry, you too can safely and quickly have the perfect, ripped, muscular body of a top athlete, model or bodybuilder."

From site the article is from...

I'd pass...

Did you look at the site at all? Maybe you agree with that approach..thats cool.

Guys that recommend roiding up I wouldn't be taking health advice from. Maybe bulking up and looking inflated but not health or performance.

Hi all,
I'll let you know how it goes. I'm thinking perhaps cycling whey with soy, to get the best of both worlds.
Not interested in roids or anything like that just want some protein to help maintain me..and build a little.

In the meanwhile, here are some more articles:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/drobson71.htm

http://www.bodybuildingforyou.com/health-nutrition/soy-protein-benefits-use-1.htm

Yes they're all bodybuilding related but few websites discuss suplementation for martialartists exclusively.

Hi,
Just a quick update on my experiment.

I believe I have had an allergic reaction to the supplements. I say believe because I can't tell for sure:
I've been travelling a lot recently and even though I haven't been eating anything strange there's a slight chance an ingredient in the food may have caused the reaction.

This is the first time I've experienced such a reaction and this is the first time I've I've taken soy isolates.

So ending the experiment with no conclusion.

Not saying its bad for you, just that it doesn't work for my system.

Would like to hear other people's opinion on this.

Besides most soy is GM most people can't digest the stuff anyway.. So reacting to it is common.

Getting health advise from people pushing roids.... if you tink roids are good maybe..

Finally got "The Whole Soy Story" - Kaayla T. Daniel, PhD, CCN

Haven't suspect it to be quite interesting and revealing.

The best evidence presently available on the long term effects of soy on human health is firstly the study of young adults fed soy as infants21 mentioned above and secondly the observation that in countries where soy is widely consumed people tend to have better longevity than most. The Japanese, regular soy consumers, lead the world in longevity36. In particular, in Okinawa, where for older persons the soy consumption of about 80g per day37, mainly as tofu, exceeds that in the rest of Japan, the average longevity (81.2 years) also exceeds that of the rest of Japan36,38.

John Livesey PhD, Scientific Officer, Department of Endocrinology, Christchurch Hospital, New Zealand

Soy products have attracted much attention in recent years as possible beneficial additions to the traditional Western diet. The hope is that increased soy consumption will reduce the incidence of Western afflictions such as heart disease and cancer and so increase longevity. In addition, for vegetarians and vegans, soy products are a relatively cheap and convenient source of high quality protein.

There is much circumstantial evidence in the medical literature for beneficial effects of soy on human health. In relatively short-term human experimental studies consumption of soy products (as compared to animal products) is found to:

Alter blood lipid1 and homocysteine2 concentrations in ways likely to reduce the risk of heart disease.
Lower blood pressure in patients with hypertension3.
Alter bone metabolism in a way that may reduce the risk of osteoporosis 4.
Improve memory5.
Decrease menopausal symptoms6.
Further, observational and epidemiological studies of humans suggest that soy consumption may:

Reduce the risk of breast cancer7,8.
Reduce the risk of prostate cancer9.
Reduce the need for hysterectomy10.
Increase bone mineral density11.
Reduce the risks of lung cancer12 and stomach cancer13 in Asian populations where these diseases are relatively common.
Assist in body weight control14.
Reduce the risk of thyroid cancer15.
Despite this apparently weighty evidence for health benefits from soy (only a small fraction of studies with similar conclusions have been referred to), not everyone is convinced.

Two years ago an epidemiological study of elderly Japanese-Americans in Hawaii found a correlation between eating tofu in middle age and poor cognitive function, enlargement of the ventricles and low brain weight in old age16. It is not clear though what to make of these findings. They have yet to be confirmed by any other study and they appear to run counter to the finding of lower rates of dementia in Okinawa (and Japan generally) than are found the United States17. Soy consumption is considerably higher in Okinawa than in the US. Further, two recent short-term studies suggest that soy or soy products may improve memory5,18. It has been suggested that the high aluminium content of Hawaiian tofu may be responsible for the deterioration of mental function seen there. Another possibilty is that the tofu consumers may have been relatively deficient in vitamin B12 compared to the non-tofu consumers, who were presumably eating meat. B12 deficiency can result in neurological problems.

New Zealand researchers have questioned the safety of soy for infant feeding19,20, citing largely theoretical concerns about possible anti-estrogen and anti-thyroid effects from the isoflavones (phytoestrogens) that are found in much higher levels in soybeans than in common Western foods. However a recent study of 248 young adults who were feed soy formula as infants found no statistically significant differences between them and 563 young adults feed cow milk formula as infants21. With the primary aim of studying effects that might be expected from any estrogen-related activity of the soy formula, the subjects were questioned about pubertal maturation, menstrual and reproductive history, height, weight, current health and education. On this basis thirty primary comparisons were made between the two groups and using the strictly correct statistical interpretation (Bonferroni adjustment for multiple comparisons), no significant differences between the soy-fed and the cow milk-fed groups were found.

If the statistical criteria are relaxed and each of the primary comparisons considered in isolation, the only significant differences found were that women in the soy formula group had a longer duration of menstrual bleeding (by 0.4 days) and greater discomfort during menstruation21.

If unplanned comparisons suggested by the data are also examined, the relaxed statistical criteria find a further statistically significant difference between the two groups21. A greater proportion of the soy-fed group (17%) were regular users of asthma or allergy drugs than were the cow milk-fed group (10%). If however irregular users of these drugs were included with regular users, there was no significant difference between the groups for the proportions of subjects using asthma and allergy drugs. No significant difference in the incidence of thyroid disease was found for the two groups22. Thus it would appear on current evidence that feeding infants soy formula is not associated with a substantial risk to health in early adult life, though more research is needed23, particularly with much larger numbers of (human) subjects.

This lack of obvious effect of soy isoflavones on infant development may be because humans do not absorb the isoflavones intact and only their glucuronide and sulfate metabolites are detectable in the blood24.

Articles have also appeared in more popular media casting doubt (usually quite vigorously) on the merits of consuming soy (see references 25 and 26 for examples). Concerns in these articles centre around soy’s high content compared to other plant foods of phytoestrogens and anti-metabolites such as anti-trypsin, phytic acid, hemagglutinins (lectins) and antithyroid agents. It is also claimed that soy increases the body’s requirement for vitamins B12 and D, and that toxic lysinoalanine, nitrosamines and monosodium glutamate are formed during the processing of soy.

The possible adverse effects of these substances in the human diet are largely speculative. An alternative view is that some of these anti-metabolites may have desirable anti-cancer properties. We just don’t know yet.

At least some of these anti-soy claims appear to be weak since anti-trypsin and lectins are inactivated by heat (ie cooking)27, and infants fed soy based-formula maintain similar vitamin D levels28 and growth rates29 to those fed cow milk-based formula.

It was reported from a retrospective study in 1990 that children with autoimmune thyroid disease (a rare condition) were more likely than their unaffected siblings to have been fed soy based-formula30. This finding though still awaits confirmation by other studies and the relationship found could be an example of reverse causation. That is to say, the babies may have been given soy-formula for some reason related to a predisposition to an autoimmune condition.

In 1991 a Japanese group reported that in an uncontrolled trial consumption of 30g of soybeans per day by adults resulted in half their subjects developing goiters31. However subsequent better designed studies in the USA using soy proteins failed to find such an effect or indeed any other clinically significant hormonal effects32,33. Indeed, the claimed effect of soybeans would predict a high incidence of goiter in high soy consuming areas such as Japan and Okinawa, but this appears not to be the case. There is also evidence that soy consumption may be protective against thyroid cancer15.

It is difficult though to completely discount concerns about soy since appropriate large-scale epidemiological studies have not yet been done. What is needed are studies comparing disease and death rates for large numbers of high soy and low soy consumers living similar lifestyles. More definitive answers should be available in a few years because Professor Gary Fraser of Loma Linda University, California, has recently been funded to study the effects of soy consumption among 125,000 Seventh Day Adventists.

Allergy to soy though is well documented. For example, 10% of infants allergic to cow milk were also allergic to soy formula34, but soy allergy appears to be much less common than allergy to cow milk35.

The best evidence presently available on the long term effects of soy on human health is firstly the study of young adults fed soy as infants21 mentioned above and secondly the observation that in countries where soy is widely consumed people tend to have better longevity than most. The Japanese, regular soy consumers, lead the world in longevity36. In particular, in Okinawa, where for older persons the soy consumption of about 80g per day37, mainly as tofu, exceeds that in the rest of Japan, the average longevity (81.2 years) also exceeds that of the rest of Japan36,38.

In conclusion, whether or not soy consumption really does benefit your health overall remains to be determined by good epidemiological studies. On the other hand, if it is harmful, the harm would seem not to be very great in view of the excellent longevity found in high soy consuming areas of the world.

Similar conclusions are reached in articles by Greg Caton and Dr John McDougall.

REFERENCES

Erdman JW. Soy protein and cardiovascular disease. Circulation 102:2555-9 (2000).
Tonstad S, Smerud K, Hrie L. A comparison of the effects of 2 doses of soy protein or casein on serum lipids, serum lipoproteins and plasma total homocysteine in hypercholesterolemic subjects. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 76:78-84 (2002).
Rivas M, Garay RP, Escanero JF et al. Soy milk lowers blood pressure in men and women with mild to moderate essential hypertension. Journal of Nutrition 132:1900-2 (2002).
Uesugi T, Fukui Y, Yamori Y. Beneficial effects of soybean isoflavone supplementation on bone metabolism and serum lipids in postmenopausal japanese women: a four-week study. Journal of the American College of Nutrition 21:97-102 (2002).
File SE, Jarrett N, Fluck E et al. Eating soy improves human memory. Psychopharmacology 157:430-6 (2001).
Han KK, Soares JM, Haidar MA et al. Benefits of soy isoflavone therapeutic regime on menopausal symptoms. Obstetrics & Gynecology 99:389-94 (2002).
Jakes RW, Duffy SW, Ng FC et al. Mammographic parenchymal patterns and self-reported soy intake in Singaporean chinese women. Cancer Epidemiol. Biomarkers Prev. 11:608-13 (2002).
Wu AH, Wan P, Hankin J et al. Adolescent and adult soy intake and risk of breast cancer in Asian-Americans. Cancinogenesis 23:1491-6 (2002).
Castle EP, Thrasher JB. The role of soy estrogens in prostate cancer. Urologic Clinics of North America 29:71-81 (2002).
Nagata C, Takatsuka N, Kawakami N, Shimizu H. Soy product intake and premenopausal hysterectomy in a follow-up study of Japanese women. European Journal of Clinical Nutrition 55:773-7 (2001).
Mei J, Yeung SS, Kung AW. High dietary phytoestrogen intake is associated with higher bone mineral density in postmenopausal but not premenopausal women. Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism 86:5217-21 (2001).
Seow A, Poh WT, The M et al. Diet, reproductive factors and lung cancer risk among Chinese women in Singapore: evidence for a protective effect of soy in non-smokers. International Journal of Cancer 97:365-71 (2002).
Nagata C, Takatsuka N, Kawakami N, Shimizu H. A prospective cohort study of soy product intake and stomach cancer death. British Journal of Cancer 87:31-6 (2002).
Maskarinec G, Novotny R, Tasaki K. Dietary patterns are associated with body mass index in multiethnic women. Journal of Nutrition 130:3068-72 (2000).
Horn-Ross PL, Hoggatt KJ, Lee MM. Phytoestrogens and thyroid cancer risk: the San Francisco Bay Area thyroid cancer study. Cancer Epidemiol. Biomarkers Prev. 11:43-9 (2002).
White LR, Petrovitch H, Ross GW et al. Brain aging and midlife tofu consumption. Journal of the American College of Nutrition 19:242-55 (2000).
Willcox B, Willcox C, Suzuki M. The Okinawa Way: How to Improve your Health and Longevity Dramatically. Michael Joseph, London (2001), p46. Published in the USA as The Okinawa Program : How the World's Longest-Lived People Achieve Everlasting Health--And How You Can Too
Messina M, Gardiner C, Barnes S. Gaining insight into the health effects of soy but still a long way to go: commentary on the Fourth International Symposium on the Role of Soy in Preventing and Treating Chronic Disease. Journal of Nutrition 132:547S-551S (2002).
Irvine C, Fitzpatrick M, Robertson I, Woodhams D. The potential adverse effects of soybean phytoestrogens in infant feeding [Letter]. New Zealand Medical Journal 24 May:208-9 (1995).
Fitzpatrick M. Soy formulas and the effects of isoflavones on the thyroid. New Zealand Medical Journal 113:24-6 (2000).
Strom BL, Schinnar R et al. Exposure to soy-based formula in infancy and endocrinological and reproductive outcomes in young adulthood. Journal of the American Medical Association 286:807-14 (2001).
Strom BL, Schinnar R et al. Exposure to soy-based formula in infancy [Letter]. Journal of the American Medical Association 286:2402-3 (2001).
Badger TM, Ronis MJ, Hakkak R et al. The health consequences of early soy consumption. Journal of Nutrition 132:559S-565S (2002).
Setchell KD, Brown NM et al. Evidence for lack of absorption of soy isoflavone glycosides in humans, supporting the crucial role of intestinal metabolism for availability. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 76:447-53 (2002).
Freeman V. Oriental odyssey. Soil & Health 61:35 (2002). This magazine now called Organic NZ.
http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/soy_alert.html
Dock LL, Floros JD. Thermal and nonthermal preservation methods. In: Schmidl MK, Labuza TP. Essentials of functional foods. Aspen, Gaithersberg, (2000) pp49-87.
Hillman LS, Chow W et al. Vitamin D metabolism, mineral homeostasis, and bone mineralization in term infants fed human milk, cow milk-based formula, or soy-based formula. Journal of Pediatrics 112:864-74 (1988).
Steichen JJ, Tsang RC. Bone mineralization and growth in term infants fed soy-based or cow milk-based formula. Journal of Pediatrics 110:687-92 (1987).
Fort P, Moses N. et al. Breast and soy-formula feedings in early infancy and the prevalence of autoimmune thyroid disease in children. Journal of the American College of Nutrition 9:164-7 (1990).
Ishizuki Y, Hirooka Y, et al. The effects on the thyroid gland of soybeans administered experimentally in healthy subjects. Nippon Naibunpi Gakki Zasshi – Folia Endocrinologica Japonica 67:622-9 (1991).
Duncan AM, Underhill KE et al. Modest hormonal effects of soy isoflavones in postmenopausal women. Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism 84:3479-84 (1999).
Persky VW, Turyk ME et al. Effect of soy protein on endogenous hormones in postmenopausal women. American Journal of Nutrition 75:145-53 (2002).
Klemola T, Vanto T et al. Allergy to soy formula and to extensively hydrolysed whey formula in infants with cow’s milk allergy: a prospective, randomized study with follow-up to the age of two years. Journal of Pediatrics 140:219-24 (2002).
Nowak-Wegrzyn A, Conover-Walker MK, Wood RA. Food-allergic reactions in schools and preschools. Archives of Pediatric and Adolescent Medicine 155:790-5 (2001).
Willcox B et al. Ibid p2.
Willcox B et al. Ibid p158.
Cockerham WC, Yamori Y. Okinawa: an exception to the social gradient of life expectancy in Japan. Asia Pacific Journal of Clinical Nutrition 10:154-8 (2001).

1-that many conflicting studies do you go with your belief?? Scary.. I suggest looking at the sources

2-soy and infants vs cows milk and infants was mentioned a s a study. One cows milk isn't all its cracked up to be for babies. Two-what was the quality of the cows milk???? Was it dead processed garbage that is not fit for human consumption or was it raw and alive? Were the cows healthy? Were they fed what they are suppose to eat (GRASS!!! not corn-even organic corn, and grains). Were they pumped with antibiodics?? etc etc

A test like that might possibly show the lessor of two evils. But unless it looks at the quality of the cows milk(which isn't best choice IMO) then the study means nothing.

there are no numbers with refferances lol

Japan study-US study, different results. WHO got the study going? WHO paid for it? etc

3-countries were soy is consumed are healthier.. They consume it differently. That is like saying dairy and one country eats cheese and another drinks whey protein shakes. The former has raw cheese and the latter, the whey comes from MOnsanto injected animals fed grains and poisons.

The amounts these countries eat it in is less and its made differently. Eat it like they do and you might be doing alright. The good stuff they they eat in SMALL amounts isn't that common and isn't infant formula, soy milks or soy shakes or large scale fake meat stuffs.

When there is that much contriversy one has to wonder. There is alot of money to be made on it.

A good rule of thumb-how much did your ancestors eat 10,000 years ago?

Most people don't digest it well at all.

Don't forget most soy today is GM.

IF you think you should eat soy then I strongly suggest making sure its not a GMO!!!!!!! Thats just insult to injury (thank monsanto in part for all the GMOs)

FDA hmmmm

anyway FDA approved soys manufacturers heart health claim
funnily enough (are we surprised?) soy is also in its "Poisonous Plant Database"

over 250 referances

http://vm.cfsan.fea.gov/-djw/pltx.cgi?QUERY=SOY

I don't think that link is right..

http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~djw/pltx.cgi?QUERY=soy
that works

288 now (but its good for your heart wtf?)

oops didnt put in the numbers on the reference list, just count down the list lol

lol I was going to...well at least thought about it :)

"Myth: Soy foods can prevent osteoporosis.

Truth: Soy foods can cause deficiencies in calcium and vitamin D, both needed for healthy bones. Calcium from bone broths and vitamin D from seafood, lard and organ meats prevent osteoporosis in Asian countries—not soy foods."

On this note, if you're drinking soy instead of milk, you'd want to make sure you're getting enough calcium elsewhere.

On this note don't drink soy milk.

But don't forget milk is NOT a good source of calcium IMO

Great points though.

SOY DANGERS:

* High levels of phytic acid in soy reduce assimilation of calcium, magnesium, copper, iron and zinc. Phytic acid in soy is not neutralized by ordinary preparation methods such as soaking, sprouting and long, slow cooking. High phytate diets have caused growth problems in children.

* Trypsin inhibitors in soy interfere with protein digestion and may cause pancreatic orders. In test animals soy containing trypsin inhibitors caused stunted growth.

* Soy phytoestrogens disrupt endocrine function and have the potential to cause infertility and to promote breast cancer in adult women.

* Soy phytoestrogens are potent antithyroid agents that cause hypothyroidism and may cause thyroid cancer. In infants, consumption of soy formula has been linked to autoimmune thyroid disease.

* Vitamin B12 analogs in soy are not absorbed and actually increase the body’s requirement for B12.

* Soy foods increase the body’s requirement for vitamin D.

* Fragile proteins are denatured during high temperature processing to make soy protein isolate and textured vegetable protein.

* Processing of soy protein results in the formation of toxic lysinoalanine and highly carcinogenic nitrosamines.

* Free glutamic acid or MSG, a potent neurotoxin, is formed during soy food processing and added to many soy foods.

* Soy foods contain high levels of aluminum which is toxic to the nervous system and the kidneys.


SOY INFANT FORMULA — BIRTH CONTROL PILLS FOR BABIES

* Babies fed soy-based formula have 13,000 to 22,000 times more estrogen compounds in their blood than babies fed milk-based formula.

* Infants exclusively fed soy formula receive the estrogenic equivalent of at least five birth control pills per day.

* Male infants undergo a “testosterone surge” during the first few months of life, when testosterone levels may be as high as those of an adult male. During this period, baby boys are programmed to express male characteristics after puberty, not only in the development of their sexual organs and other masculine physical traits, but also in setting patterns in the brain characteristic of male behavior.

* Pediatricians are noticing greater numbers of boys whose physical maturation is delayed, or does not occur at all, including lack of development of the sexual organs. Learning disabilities, especially in male children, have reached epidemic proportions.

* Soy infant feeding—which floods the bloodstream with female hormones that inhibit testosterone—cannot be ignored as a possible cause for these tragic developments. In animals, soy feeding indicates that phytoestrogens in soy are powerful endocrine disrupters.

* Almost 15 percent of white girls and 50 percent of African-American girls show signs of puberty such as breast development and pubic hair, before the age of eight. Some girls are showing sexual development before the age of three. Premature development of girls has been linked to the use of soy formula and exposure to environmental estrogens such as PCBs and DDE.

http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/03summary.htm

forgot link

Introduction: Confused About Soy?

* High levels of phytic acid in soy reduce assimilation of calcium, magnesium, copper, iron and zinc. Phytic acid in soy is not neutralized by ordinary preparation methods such as soaking, sprouting and long, slow cooking. High phytate diets have caused growth problems in children.
* Trypsin inhibitors in soy interfere with protein digestion and may cause pancreatic disorders. In test animals soy containing trypsin inhibitors caused stunted growth.
* Soy phytoestrogens disrupt endocrine function and have the potential to cause infertility and to promote breast cancer in adult women.
* Soy phytoestrogens are potent antithyroid agents that cause hypothyroidism and may cause thyroid cancer. In infants, consumption of soy formula has been linked to autoimmune thyroid disease.
* Vitamin B12 analogs in soy are not absorbed and actually increase the body's requirement for B12.
* Soy foods increase the body's requirement for vitamin D.
* Fragile proteins are denatured during high temperature processing to make soy protein isolate and textured vegetable protein.
* Processing of soy protein results in the formation of toxic lysinoalanine and highly carcinogenic nitrosamines.
* Free glutamic acid or MSG, a potent neurotoxin, is formed during soy food processing and additional amounts are added to many soy foods.
* Soy foods contain high levels of aluminum which is toxic to the nervous system and the kidneys.

The above soy dangers and our Myths & Truths About Soy are available in our Soy Alert! trifold brochure for mass distribution.

Read the above summary of soy dangers in French.

How You Can Help! We have several initiatives we are working on to alert people to the dangers of soy. These efforts will require continued support. Click here for our donation form.

http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/index.html

Title: Soy consumption and mortality in Hong Kong: Proxy-reported case-control study of all older adult deaths in 1998
Author(s): Ho SY, Schooling M, Hui LL, McGhee SM, Mak KH, Lam TH
Source: PREVENTIVE MEDICINE 43 (1): 20-26 JUL 2006
Document Type: Article
Language: English
Cited References: 59 Times Cited: 1
Abstract: Objectives. This study investigates the relation between soy consumption and mortality in a population-based case-control study in Hong Kong of all adult deaths in 1998.
Methods. Multivariable logistic regression was used to assess the effect of soy on all-cause and cause-specific mortality in 21,494 deceased cases and 10,968 living controls who were ethnic Chinese aged 60 or above, using proxy reports collected from the person registering the death. Dietary habits were obtained from proxies in both cases and controls, based on a 7-item questionnaire.

Results. The adjusted odds ratios for all-cause mortality for soy consumption 4 or more times a week compared with less than once a month were 0.77 (95% Cl: 0.62, 0.95) for men and 0.66 (0.54, 0.81) for women. Mortality from lung cancer (males P = 0.02, females P = 0.02), colorectal cancer (males P = 0.07, females P < 0.001), stomach cancer (males P = 0.04, females P = 0.03), female breast cancer (P = 0.02) and ischemic heart disease (males P < 0.001, females P = 0.002) was inversely associated with soy consumption.

Conclusions. Our study suggests that maintaining traditional levels of soy consumption could be protective for some chronic diseases in China. (c) 2006 Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.

Author Keywords: soy; mortality; Hong Kong; case-control study
KeyWords Plus: CORONARY-HEART-DISEASE; LUNG-CANCER RISK; PROSTATE-CANCER; DIETARY-INTAKE; CHINESE POPULATION; SERUM-CHOLESTEROL; HEMORRHAGIC STROKE; BLOOD-PRESSURE; WOMEN; MEN
Addresses: Schooling M (reprint author), Univ Hong Kong, Fac Med, Sch Publ Hlth, Dept Community Med, 5-F,William MW Mong Bldg,21 Sassoon Rd, Hong Kong, Hong Kong Peoples R China
Univ Hong Kong, Fac Med, Sch Publ Hlth, Dept Community Med, Hong Kong, Hong Kong Peoples R China
Dept Hlth, Hong Kong, Hong Kong Peoples R China
E-mail Addresses: commed@hkucc.hku.hk, commed@hkucc.hku.hk
Publisher: ACADEMIC PRESS INC ELSEVIER SCIENCE, 525 B ST, STE 1900, SAN DIEGO, CA 92101-4495 USA

Title: Influence of phytoestrogens an humans and animals
Author(s): Nowicka E, Szkudelski R, Nogowski L
Source: MEDYCYNA WETERYNARYJNA 62 (7): 736-738 JUL 2006
Document Type: Review
Language: Polish
Cited References: 33 Times Cited: 0
Abstract: Phytoestrogens are compounds found in plants with estrogenic activity. Their chemical structure is similar to estradiol. Three main classes of phytoestrogens are: isoflavones, lignans and coumestans. The major bioactive isoflavones are genistein and daidzein.
Phytoestrogens are widely present in plants regularly consumed by animals and humans: e.g. oats, barley, wheat, corn, and clover. The most significant sources of isoflavones are soybeans and soy foods. Lignans are present in plant foods: mainly in flaxseed, but also in grains, fruit and vegetables. Phytoestrogens are compounds which exhibit estrogenic activity. This activity was first recognized in sheep and is known as "Clover Disease". In these animals phytoestrogens cause reproductive disorders or even infertility. The feeding of female rats with a soy rich diet induces an increase in uterine weight. Vaginal modifications have also been observed. Phytoestrogens also exhibit anticarcinogenic activity. Animal studies have demonstrated reduced cancer development with soybean consumption. Genistein and other phytoestrogens have a beneficial role in obesity and diabetes mellitus. These compounds cause slight decreases in insulin, total cholesterol and triglycerides content. Phytoestrogens also increase the amount of cholesterol in high density lipoproteins (HDL) and decrease the amount of VLDL- and LDL-cholesterol, they can reduce risk of cardiovascular diseases. Experiments performed on animals demonstrate that genistein and daidzein clearly inhibit lipogenesis and enhance lipolysis. Phytoestrogens also have a special role in the prevention of osteoporosis.

Author Keywords: phytoestrogens; genistein
KeyWords Plus: RAT ADIPOCYTES; SOYBEAN PROTEIN; SOY PROTEIN; BONE LOSS; IN-VITRO; GENISTEIN; METABOLISM; ISOFLAVONES; ESTROGENS; HORMONE
Addresses: Nowicka E (reprint author), Ul Wolynska 35, Poznan, PL-60637 Poland
AR, Katedra Fizjologii & Biochem Zwierzat, Wydzial Hodowli & Biol Zwierzat, Poznan, PL-60637 Poland
E-mail Addresses: ewa-nowick@tlen.pl
Publisher: POLISH SOC VETERINARY SCIENCES EDITORIAL OFFICE, AKADEMICKA 12, 20-950 LUBLIN, POLAND

That one was real interesting. Positive and negative effects....

Smoking has positive and negative effects too.

I had a telecon yesterday for a course I am taking. The teacher, who works with a wide range of people (including famous athletes), when I asked her her thoughts on soy, said she wouldn't touch it.

If it ddoes good AND bad, why touch it unless there was no where else to get the good from and or the good way out weighed the bad???

Never mind a close look at who pays for the good studies. I'm sure it does do some good. Like Ii said, I found studies saying smoking was too..

take up smoking then mark, im not about to.

I think it is a great Idea to have a real close look as to who pays for these kind of studies.

Just sharing what I have found from peer reviewed sources. Information can really help to make decisions.So while looking into the this I think it might be helpful to share relevant information that I have found.knowledge is power.

Wonder how many peer reviewed academic articles you can source showing smoking to have a more beneficial effect than a negative one. I wonder how much conflicting information their is out their about that one? , similar to the soy debate?? I really hope not.

Seems like most anything taken or done to the extreme can have bad effects on a person.

Things are not always so black and white.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/food/Story/0,,1828158,00.html

below is Dr Mercolas out line of this article linked to above...mercola.com


More Evidence Soy is Not as Healthy as Originally Believed



SoyThis fascinating report in the UK Guardian Limited details some of the earliest evidence that soy can be harmful to your health.

One investigation began when multimillionaire lawyer Richard James became convinced that soy beans were killing his rare parrots.

Parrots do not eat soy in the wild, but a high-protein feed containing soy had been marketed as a new miracle bird food. When James fed it to his parrots, however, the birds became infertile, died, or aged prematurely.

Researchers initially thought that James must be mistaken about the cause, but when he financed an exhaustive study of soy, they found that soy contains toxins and disruptive plant estrogens, and could also damage the thyroid.

James's lobbying gradually forced governments to investigate. In 2002, the British government concluded that there was little evidence for the supposed health benefits of soy, and a good deal of evidence for its risks.

Soy's health claims are usually based on the low rates of heart disease and certain cancers in east Asian populations. However, Asians do not actually eat as much soy as has been generally assumed, and what they do eat tends to have been fermented for long periods. Fermentation considerably reduces the levels of dangerous isoflavones in soy.

Guardian Unlimited July 25, 2006

smoking isn't as bad cause people know its bad...

I think its worse when people are trying to do something good for thier bodies.

Everyone knows smoking is bad (even though they made it seem otherwise back in the day..I wonder if in the future someone will be saying that of soy)

No its not all black and white. But the evidence is overwhelming that soy has its isuues and problems and a pretty large scale. So who cares if some studies show it is good in some other area?

You'll loose you arm but it makes your leg stronger...

Just cause it makes your legs stronger is no reason to promote a product..

Its about balancing the black and white..

Properly fermented and used as here and there... sure.

Promoted as a staple replace all wonder food... No way.
IMO

wouldnt replace any of the food I eat with one food, that would be a bad move with most anything

Sure do have to balance the black and white aswell as find a variety of good sources for information ,not just one.

Guardian? do not know if I would believe anything whole heartedly from them, wouldnt really consider them a valid source of information.

who cares

I care if most studies show that its good in some respects and bad in other respects. pregnant women shouldnt bungy jump.......men without to many other health issues can ......and reap the benefits of being able to....so why not.

It pays to be informed, knowledge is power and therefore decisions can be made based

So I care that I get the whole picture on a subject and not just one side or a skewed view.

PCNA member Jerilyn Allen, RN, ScD, FAAN, reported on her recent study adding to the limited knowledge on the benefits of soy protein. The use of soy protein containing isoflavones, a phytoestrogen or weak form of naturally occurring estrogen, can improve atherogenic lipoprotein profiles in postmenopausal women and effectively reduce two strong, independent indicators of coronary heart disease.

According to a study by Johns Hopkins researchers, both the low-density lipoprotein cholesterol elevation (LDL-C) and the low-density lipoprotein particle number (LDL-P) were decreased in healthy postmenopausal women with borderline LDL-C who took a dietary supplement of soy protein each day for six weeks. In the randomized "Beneficial Effects of Soy Trial" (BEST), 216 Caucasian and African American women received a daily dose of either 20 grams of isolated soy protein containing isoflavones or a placebo of 20 grams of protein from casein. In comparison to the women who were given the placebo, those taking the soy protein experienced significantly greater decreases in LDL-C and LDL-P. Differences in age, race, and changes in other lipoproteins, dietary saturated fat intake, and weight had little or no impact on the BEST findings. The study was conducted at the Johns Hopkins University School of Nursing and funded by the National Heart, Lung and Blood Institute. Allen's co-investigators were Diane Becker, RN, ScD, and Pete Kwiterovich, Jr., MD, both of Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine

Source Citation: "New findings from nutrition research reported at AHA scientific sessions.(Preventive Cardiovascular Nurses Association)." Journal of Cardiovascular Nursing 21.1 (Jan-Feb 2006):

I try not to cling to a belief and make my decisions based on facts, well researched facts.... and from varying sources

In my opinion thats the best way.

Varying sources are good (if all good sources) but varying opinions from researchers has to make one wonder. Or in some ways its good and other ways its poison... who cares if it has good properties if its also poison?

poison to who and not poison to who? If its not poison to me then Im going to have it, if its poison to a pregnant mother then she shouldnt have it

Poison....... strong word. If it doent effect me in a detrimental way and has bonus effects which are beneficial then this is a good thing.

Diabetics have special needs we shouldnt all eat their diet just because certain things have a bad effect on them and some may consider poison.....

Have only read from any type of reliable source so far that Pregnant women and developing infants MAY be affected by soy products. Aside from that .

Preganant women have other dietry restrictions too that I wouldnt have to follow because Im not preganat and will not be affected by the food in the same way.

Stands to reason then. I really dont believe everything I read.

Fair enough...

personally I'd rather smoke a cig than eat a serving (besides the adictive qualities of course)

"In the 1940s, farmers attempted to use cheap coconut oil for fattening thier animals, but they found thst it made them lean, active and hungry. For a few years, an antithyroid drug was found to make the livestock get fat while eating less food, but then it was found to be a strong carcinogen, and it also probably produced hypothyroidism in people who ate the meat. By the late 1940s, it was found that the same anitithyroid effect, causing animals to get fat without eating much food, could be achieved by using soy beans and corn as feed."
-Coconut Oil article by Ray Peat
www.raypeat.com

"Estrogenic influences can be significantly reduced by avoiding foods such as soy products and unsaturated fats"

Ray Peat quote in his Breast Cancer Article
www.raypeat.com

This is an independant researcher who doesn't sell products for anyone..

wow now thanks to ray peat and his research I cant have saturated fats or unsaturated fats, im so depressed I might have to buy one of his mexican hats or one of his paintings to cheer me up......

HH IF you read it you'd realise that he is actually sayin saturated fats have many good properties. I htink he gets about an ounce of cocnut oil a day actually. Good cocnut oil is about 96% saturated fat.

Close to 30% of my diet is saturated fat. I love fat and it loves me. The fats in quality beef, buffalo, chicken etc etc quality coconut oils, dairy, olive oil..

I love it!

Low fat diets are bull shit... IMO (of course not everyone needs the same amounts but we all need fat!!!!)

coconut oil is good for fat loss actually

http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/soy_milkcheese.html

I heard it can make you grow tits.

"There are 100 years worth of studies demonstrating that soy products can be hazardous to your health, but soy is nonetheless now everywhere in our food supply, often hidden in processed foods."

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2007/07/05/the-dark-side-of-soy.aspx

I drink soy milk everyday, check out the kind of breasts you get from pics of

myself in my profile. Then maybe reread the information in the posts above might give you a clearer understanding.....actually maybe not come to think about it.

Almost seems like a few main advocates that really make a noise about soy and they seem to be the guys who through fear based tactics make a lot of money off the internet selling and advising an alternative approach to health and well being.

Interesting perspective.

I would say there are many more independent sources reporting soy as crap and also with much less to gain with those who do sell anything as an alternative.

My perspective is certainly more along the lines of opposite.


Muscle test and you'll see in seconds what your body reports to you.

I don't agree with your method of muscle testing as I see it being totally open to interpretation. Not scientific.



Each to their own though. Independent??

I found loads of peer based independent scientific sources listed above and they have both positive and negative things to say.

They arent tring to sell anything and dont have a fear based marketing campaign either.

Fear is so controling

Anything in excess can cause major problems...even vitamins...some vitamins in high consumption can kill you.

I wouldnt tell everyone to not take vitamins though.

I guess we disagree :)

With muscle testing I have done blind, where the tester and the subject do not know what is being tested until after the results are in. I consistently get the same results.

When sending blood work to labs if you take blood from one person and put in two tubes with different names on it results more come back differently. The better labs have a smaller % difference and the worse ones a bigger difference. I forget the numbers but it was pretty significant.

Never mind errors. (JAMA reports doctors being the third leading cause of death in the US)

I'm am not sure if you have experienced or studied any applied kinesiology or behavioral kinesiology ("muscle testing") or if you are going off my feeble attempts to describe it.

If the latter here are a couple possible references in case you may be interested in an intro.

John Diamond M.D. “Your Body Doesn’t Lie”
Susan Levy D.C. “Your Body Can Talk”
David R. Hawkings M.D., Ph.D. “Power vs. Force”


Dr David Getoff has a DVD set on it as well. Again, he finds it more accurate than blood testing, which he does.

Studies - follow the money.

"The Whole Soy Story"
http://www.wholesoystory.com
Good book and site

Update

I had soy in my museli this morning and I feel fantastic.

Trainings going well. Just started to do some MMA training to.

Quite like rice milk to mmmmm. I listen to my body and my body loves it

Mark. L

This is a most informative discussion.

Recently we have had to change my 1 year old son from cows milk to soya as he is constantly constipated, we have also thought about changing again to rice milk. Have also changed hs diet to remove white bread (Wholemeal instead) and have changed to wholewheat pasta etc

Do you have any other suggestions.

Any help will be greatly received

Ta

I would drink rice milk over soya any day myself. I also think
that rice milk is essentially sugar usually.

Its straight carbs pretty much anyway...

wholewheat in Canada, by law, can be up to (forget numbers maybe 75% white).

westonaprice.org has some articles on health and making formulas etc


mercola.com should have some too..

I am a big believer in gluten being a big problem for most people (never mind we over consume grains) thing is if gluten sensitive (celiac is when it is really extreme but many poeple won't show up on test yet will be affected by it)...if gluten sensitive you are automatically dairy sensitive.

As much as I am not a believer in processed dairy I would have a hard time saying soy in its place...

www.drkalish.com has a free gluten sensitivity test. Dr Kalish has been one of my teachers and the guy is wonderful and brilliant. Specialties include parasites, hormones and food sensitivities...

He has almost a 100% success rate with fertility problems...
But he will only work with them if they do the foundation steps...

One of those includes no gluten...period!

Dr Kalish first 4 steps
no gluten
.5oz water per lbs body weight
protein every meal
don't skip breaky

If I give out 30 pages of intake to see what is going
on with the individual. The first four steps I give
are those above...

Dr Kalish charges over $300 an hour I think... and
he won't waste his time unless you get off the gluten

So grains with no gluten is huge in my opinion and experience..

All the best - what a gift to have in your life...