Topic:Training For A 5 Round Fight
rockster
Posted: 2007-10-02 07:14:04
Posted: 2007-10-02 07:14:04
Training for a 5 round fight
Hi All, juts want to get some ideas from experienced fighters on the training and diet for fighting 5x2 min rounds.. e.g. amount of running (Frequency), type of running (sprints, long), time in gym, eating etc etc. Any help would be much appreciated..?
Hi All, juts want to get some ideas from experienced fighters on the training and diet for fighting 5x2 min rounds.. e.g. amount of running (Frequency), type of running (sprints, long), time in gym, eating etc etc. Any help would be much appreciated..?
Hi
run about 2 times a week bout 4 miles with sprints in the second 2 miles train in gym 3 times a week with lots of sparring and padwork always do circuits after sparring do your sparring while fresh you would spar better increasing your confidence which is important different people train different ways its up to you but good luck with the fight
run about 2 times a week bout 4 miles with sprints in the second 2 miles train in gym 3 times a week with lots of sparring and padwork always do circuits after sparring do your sparring while fresh you would spar better increasing your confidence which is important different people train different ways its up to you but good luck with the fight
My opinion is to start with high intensity and build endurance instead of the other way around.
I would run hard/alternating speeds for 2 minutes and then rest your rest period or longer if need be then do again. Stop, even if only a couple rounds (or take a longer break) to keep intensity up. Slowly build up to high intensity for 2 minutes with a break x 5...
You don't need the energy system and muscle conditioning to jog for an hour. You want to have the energy to explode and endure for 2 mins with break times 5.
This is tough if you keep intensity high. A couple times a week with once or twice a week sparring (if you spar hard) or hard bag work -designed for conditioning is what I would do....
Teach your body to be fast and powerful to endure the time needed instead of teaching your body to endure for an hour of medium pace conditioning.
Its not what you can do but what you can recover from and do again - if you energy levels are falling over the week you know you are pushing it too much...
Thats my opinion anyway :)
I would run hard/alternating speeds for 2 minutes and then rest your rest period or longer if need be then do again. Stop, even if only a couple rounds (or take a longer break) to keep intensity up. Slowly build up to high intensity for 2 minutes with a break x 5...
You don't need the energy system and muscle conditioning to jog for an hour. You want to have the energy to explode and endure for 2 mins with break times 5.
This is tough if you keep intensity high. A couple times a week with once or twice a week sparring (if you spar hard) or hard bag work -designed for conditioning is what I would do....
Teach your body to be fast and powerful to endure the time needed instead of teaching your body to endure for an hour of medium pace conditioning.
Its not what you can do but what you can recover from and do again - if you energy levels are falling over the week you know you are pushing it too much...
Thats my opinion anyway :)
always double your rounds in training for a 3x2min fight train for six and so
on, all your heavy training should be finished three weeks before your fight
speed and technique for the final three weeks. hope this helps
on, all your heavy training should be finished three weeks before your fight
speed and technique for the final three weeks. hope this helps
volume and intensity are related to energy used.
You can never ever do 6 rounds as hard or as intense as you can 3. Simple math and physics
Training the energy systems and your body to go lower intensity for 6 rounds won't help you up intensity for 3. Might mean you have energy left over to do more...which you don't need and you train your body to be slower, less explosive in my opinion.
If trying to push intensity etc you'll more likely to over train which means more likely to lower energy levels and get injuries (nothing limits gains like having to stop or slow down).
I think there is a time and place to add some and decrease break time etc but my opinion is get intensity up, not endurance...
How many sprinters daily train for marathons?
Thats my opinion anyway.
You can never ever do 6 rounds as hard or as intense as you can 3. Simple math and physics
Training the energy systems and your body to go lower intensity for 6 rounds won't help you up intensity for 3. Might mean you have energy left over to do more...which you don't need and you train your body to be slower, less explosive in my opinion.
If trying to push intensity etc you'll more likely to over train which means more likely to lower energy levels and get injuries (nothing limits gains like having to stop or slow down).
I think there is a time and place to add some and decrease break time etc but my opinion is get intensity up, not endurance...
How many sprinters daily train for marathons?
Thats my opinion anyway.
Thats why i use this in the early stages im talking training over 6-8week
period, not 2-3 weeks before a fight, jesus thats suicide, but knowing you
can fight for six will boost your confidence for three, if you stuck cotto in
for a three rounder how do you think he will do, i will tell you he will go
like a bat out of hell because he knows his body can do 12, we all know that
three rounder fights are fast and furious unlike five rounders were there is
more thought and technique involved.
My training opinions are scoped on the amature boxing gyms in liverpool and
we all know liverpool are in the top ten in the world for boxing, and i will
tell you why when the boxing season closes most gyms close aswell,in liverpool this is when they do all the heavy work so when the season starts they are
at the speed and tech stages, were all the gyms are just starting to get
back in to it and yes i know we do thaiboxing but i know and have proved this
works for my own fighters. when i say gyms close i mean there fighter ease off there training.
period, not 2-3 weeks before a fight, jesus thats suicide, but knowing you
can fight for six will boost your confidence for three, if you stuck cotto in
for a three rounder how do you think he will do, i will tell you he will go
like a bat out of hell because he knows his body can do 12, we all know that
three rounder fights are fast and furious unlike five rounders were there is
more thought and technique involved.
My training opinions are scoped on the amature boxing gyms in liverpool and
we all know liverpool are in the top ten in the world for boxing, and i will
tell you why when the boxing season closes most gyms close aswell,in liverpool this is when they do all the heavy work so when the season starts they are
at the speed and tech stages, were all the gyms are just starting to get
back in to it and yes i know we do thaiboxing but i know and have proved this
works for my own fighters. when i say gyms close i mean there fighter ease off there training.
train and create slow twitch muscle fibers and they pretty much stay for life.
A marathon runner will never have the same potential as a sprinter if he had trained for sprinting from day one.
I do believe in a conditioning stage but the amounts of extra endurance vs speed, power and explosiveness and conditioning for for such is no where near double what you want to be able to do time wise IMO
A marathon runner will never have the same potential as a sprinter if he had trained for sprinting from day one.
I do believe in a conditioning stage but the amounts of extra endurance vs speed, power and explosiveness and conditioning for for such is no where near double what you want to be able to do time wise IMO
Mark L.- good point about the sprinter/marathon theory, but these arnt running
there fighting, and we all know whats happens when a superfit person steps
into the ring for the first time, hes normally gasping for air after one minute
if my fighters are fighting 3x2min they will do a 15-20 run, 6x2min rounds of
skipping, shadow, bagwork, padwork i cant see how that would effect a fighters
performance for a 3x2min fight.
But everyone is entitled to there own opinion and two sides make a coin
you said in your earlier statement
You don't need the energy system and muscle conditioning to jog for an hour.
but there is a gym in thailand that do jog for up to one hour and skip for at
least half an hour, and have an excellent stable of fighters, if you want to
check its jitti's gym go on there home page and then training, if you dont
need these long training sessions why do jitti's gym do it, actions speak
louder my friend, but as i said everyone is entitled to there own opinion.
there fighting, and we all know whats happens when a superfit person steps
into the ring for the first time, hes normally gasping for air after one minute
if my fighters are fighting 3x2min they will do a 15-20 run, 6x2min rounds of
skipping, shadow, bagwork, padwork i cant see how that would effect a fighters
performance for a 3x2min fight.
But everyone is entitled to there own opinion and two sides make a coin
you said in your earlier statement
You don't need the energy system and muscle conditioning to jog for an hour.
but there is a gym in thailand that do jog for up to one hour and skip for at
least half an hour, and have an excellent stable of fighters, if you want to
check its jitti's gym go on there home page and then training, if you dont
need these long training sessions why do jitti's gym do it, actions speak
louder my friend, but as i said everyone is entitled to there own opinion.
the example of a marathon runner and a sprinter is they are both running... this is very close use of the same muscles... running for fighting isn't... however, even running for running, it is important to train the energy system and the muscles in a similar manner to competition.
Kicking is very different on the muscles and energy system than running is.
I remember training a marathon runner in MuayThai. One of the fittest men I have met. Couldn't last a round on pads.
I use to run two or three times a day in Thailand... I know how some of the gyms train there.
I also know some gyms don't run and have excellent fighters also.
Sport specific movement and sport specific conditioning are key. Many debates on what that is of course.
Lots of running and skipping is also to keep weight down.
If its not needed why does Jitti's do it - obviously a fan of Jitti's. Well I'll give you this.. if not needed why do most gyms in Thailand (not all) do it.
(by the went to Jitti's back in '94)
Here is a wonderful little story that I feel applies to running long times in power sports.
A woman served up the family pork roast one day and the husband asked her "why do you cut off the ends of the roast when you cook it?" She said that that is the way her Mum taught her to do it... he persisted and asked why though... she decided to ask her Mum. When she asked her Mum her Mum said she didn't know as that is how grandma did it and finally they decided to ask Grandma.. Grandma told them she didn't have a big enough pan so she had to cut off the ends to make it fit...
Our parents, trainers, teachers and preachers get things past on to them as "the way" to do things... rarely can we look outside the box and say "does this even make sense?"
A warrior always learns and looks to improve his craft. He learns from, but is not limited, by his teachers.
I am not using this story to suggest I am right. I am using it to say that "Jitti's gym does it so it must be right" logic doesn't work for me.
Any marathon runners or distant runners, bikers etc in excellent shape out there... if so please post how much that seems to have helped you do MuayThai at a high intensity... or trainers who have had distance guys with great distance cardio....
Built for speed and power or built for distance... crotch rocket or cruiser... the design is different for it has different purposes.
The energy systems are not all equal. Train one and you drop in another basically... also train slow twitch muscle fibers (not good for explosiveness) - see you actually can change some mid fibers into slow or fast... once you have slow though you are pretty limited on changing them.
My opinion based on my experiences up to this point in time... they may change :)
Kicking is very different on the muscles and energy system than running is.
I remember training a marathon runner in MuayThai. One of the fittest men I have met. Couldn't last a round on pads.
I use to run two or three times a day in Thailand... I know how some of the gyms train there.
I also know some gyms don't run and have excellent fighters also.
Sport specific movement and sport specific conditioning are key. Many debates on what that is of course.
Lots of running and skipping is also to keep weight down.
If its not needed why does Jitti's do it - obviously a fan of Jitti's. Well I'll give you this.. if not needed why do most gyms in Thailand (not all) do it.
(by the went to Jitti's back in '94)
Here is a wonderful little story that I feel applies to running long times in power sports.
A woman served up the family pork roast one day and the husband asked her "why do you cut off the ends of the roast when you cook it?" She said that that is the way her Mum taught her to do it... he persisted and asked why though... she decided to ask her Mum. When she asked her Mum her Mum said she didn't know as that is how grandma did it and finally they decided to ask Grandma.. Grandma told them she didn't have a big enough pan so she had to cut off the ends to make it fit...
Our parents, trainers, teachers and preachers get things past on to them as "the way" to do things... rarely can we look outside the box and say "does this even make sense?"
A warrior always learns and looks to improve his craft. He learns from, but is not limited, by his teachers.
I am not using this story to suggest I am right. I am using it to say that "Jitti's gym does it so it must be right" logic doesn't work for me.
Any marathon runners or distant runners, bikers etc in excellent shape out there... if so please post how much that seems to have helped you do MuayThai at a high intensity... or trainers who have had distance guys with great distance cardio....
Built for speed and power or built for distance... crotch rocket or cruiser... the design is different for it has different purposes.
The energy systems are not all equal. Train one and you drop in another basically... also train slow twitch muscle fibers (not good for explosiveness) - see you actually can change some mid fibers into slow or fast... once you have slow though you are pretty limited on changing them.
My opinion based on my experiences up to this point in time... they may change :)
http://www.d.umn.edu/~nacsm/meetings/sp08/nacsmsp08presentations/BoydEdpleyHandOut.pdf
number 9 and 10 are key to this thread I think
number 9 and 10 are key to this thread I think
http://www.d.umn.edu/~nacsm/meetings/sp08/nacsmsp08presentations/BoydEdpleyHandOut.pdf
a little more on aerobic conditioning and fast and slow twitch etc
a little more on aerobic conditioning and fast and slow twitch etc
Point taken about the roast story (see were your coming from), what im saying
is that training works for my students, and im a great believer in "if its not
broken why fix it", each to there own mate, and what you have said makes a
lot of sense, hopefully rockster can take something from both of us and
create his own system..
is that training works for my students, and im a great believer in "if its not
broken why fix it", each to there own mate, and what you have said makes a
lot of sense, hopefully rockster can take something from both of us and
create his own system..
Richard Weir
Posted: 2008-07-07 05:38:06
Posted: 2008-07-07 05:38:06
The "but they do it in Thailand" reasoning is increasingly flimsy these days. By inviting someone to speak out against the methodology of a gym (or "the mother country", if you're hyperbolically inclined), you're essentially baiting someone to appear disrespectful to established institutions. I trained at Jitti's - a fine gym which did the decent thing and threw me into the fight-ring - and while I would question little about their technical training, when it comes to the morning run I'd be inclined to take a pass.
Speed and specificity kill.
Speed and specificity kill.
Nice thread!!!
Each to there own, i must remember that excuse next time im asked to do a run
lol
lol
The Belerus fighters are not asked to go on a run, there instructor says run
and they say how far, it all boils down to self dicipline, if one of my
students gave me a feeble excuse like that i would tell them to go home,and the
belerusians have a very good fight record, fuck the oh its no good for you
crap, its when your in the ring and had the shit knocked out of you, thats
when that self dicipline kicks in, all those early morning runs you couldnt
be arsed doing, but you made yourself do them thats what its all about, the
problem with society today is that they would prefer to bang an excuse in
front of things that sound like hard work, if running is not good for fighters
why the fuck do "all" pro boxers do it, i rest my case, but as i keep saying
that is my own personal humble opinion, rockster, just use your own common
sense and judgement there is some good advise on this thread im sure you can
cunjour up your own system, good luck mate.
and they say how far, it all boils down to self dicipline, if one of my
students gave me a feeble excuse like that i would tell them to go home,and the
belerusians have a very good fight record, fuck the oh its no good for you
crap, its when your in the ring and had the shit knocked out of you, thats
when that self dicipline kicks in, all those early morning runs you couldnt
be arsed doing, but you made yourself do them thats what its all about, the
problem with society today is that they would prefer to bang an excuse in
front of things that sound like hard work, if running is not good for fighters
why the fuck do "all" pro boxers do it, i rest my case, but as i keep saying
that is my own personal humble opinion, rockster, just use your own common
sense and judgement there is some good advise on this thread im sure you can
cunjour up your own system, good luck mate.
Richard Weir
Posted: 2008-07-07 20:14:35
Posted: 2008-07-07 20:14:35
A morning 10k run does nothing for me when I'm getting the shit kicked out of me, personally, but each to their own.
Pro-boxing is a different discipline from MT and needs different conditioning. The work demands per round of MT are higher and require a higher intensity training, which a 45 minute jog does NOT provide.
Why do you call it a "feeble excuse" when there are reams of scientific evidence backing such statements up? Waking up in the AM and being put into a brutal conditioning circuit is surely more amenable to your idea of self-discipline than a mid-paced run?
I'd be curious to see what distances, speeds etc the Belarussians run, if you have them to hand.
Pro-boxing is a different discipline from MT and needs different conditioning. The work demands per round of MT are higher and require a higher intensity training, which a 45 minute jog does NOT provide.
Why do you call it a "feeble excuse" when there are reams of scientific evidence backing such statements up? Waking up in the AM and being put into a brutal conditioning circuit is surely more amenable to your idea of self-discipline than a mid-paced run?
I'd be curious to see what distances, speeds etc the Belarussians run, if you have them to hand.
I think I can agree to disagree with the running.
Feeble excuse... I understand work ethic and just doing it etc
More important to me is a student who can think for himself and learn to listen to his own body. A student that is his own teacher. I do believe in respecting your teachers but blind following is not in my books.
A teachers job is not to be a teacher and think they know best for the student in my opinion. It is to offer the student experiences so that they can learn to teach themselves and find out what works for them - not teach them what works for me.
Feeble excuse... I understand work ethic and just doing it etc
More important to me is a student who can think for himself and learn to listen to his own body. A student that is his own teacher. I do believe in respecting your teachers but blind following is not in my books.
A teachers job is not to be a teacher and think they know best for the student in my opinion. It is to offer the student experiences so that they can learn to teach themselves and find out what works for them - not teach them what works for me.
Richard - I agree that there is often an air of disrespect perceived if something is said against the norm of an establishment. I believe this comes from fear based conditioning. The human ego attaches to its beliefs and holds onto them as it does life itself. Anything that threatens its beliefs it feels threatens its very existence. To say anything against a war or the government in the US is to be anti-American. To say anything against the Bible is heresy. This has developed to protect the belief (could be intentional or otherwise). Beliefs put in the Bible include if you don't believe and follow you are going to hell and if you do believe and follow you are going to heaven. This reward and punishment beliefs are to support the story and are based in fear. (not suggesting the story is correct or not) beliefs are neutral in that they don't have to be true or false to spread. true or false when supportive beliefs are punnishment or reward I have to think twice for they are fear based mechanisms for supporting an idea. Truth doesn't need fear to support it in my opinion. In memetic language they are defense and offense memes.
To walk a different path from ones peers or to speak outside of the box is always met with extreme resistance (this is not directed at you beaty).
I would fit into the school (or at least use to) of what some call a MuayThai Nazi.. I am all about Thai style. In my experience, at least on a technique perspective, Thai style kicks ass for MuayThai rules fighting.
The reason MuayThai is dominant (my opinion) in SE Asia over Burmese boxing, Cambodian boxing, Laos boxing etc is nothing to do with Thai superiority but to do with the opportunity and frequency of fighting. The Thais have had the sport of stand up fighting developing in greater numbers for a long time in the last 100 years (or whatever it is).
My point is that it is little to do with Thais and more to do with circumstances. In the western world there have been circumstances that have lead to knowledge and development of understanding the human body in terms of exercise and fitness and conditioning.
Though in the West there are many schools of thought, most of the top strength and conditioning coaches that are not limited to one sport, seem to agree (as far as I can tell) that doing aerobic conditioning works best for a sport with aerobic demands and anaerobic conditioning best for sports with an anaerobic demand.
This is over simplified as the aerobic energy system starts right from the get go even if you move for 2 seconds... however the dominant system on high intensity movement is anaerobic. (there are more than two systems too). But training the anaerobic system does train the aerobic...
The energy system you train when kicking pads for 3 minutes will be much closer to the energy system you will use in a fight than running for an hour. The energy system is related to the muscles used and muscle movement also. Lifting weights (say squats) and running (though they may have benefits) do not train the same muscles in the same way for the same movements of kicking and punching etc Yes there are benefits and they may be worth working in to a degree, but they can never and will never conditioning the muscles, body, mind, energy system etc like kicking or punching will.
Training recovery is hugely over looked in my opinion also.
Imagine 1 round of 15 minutes... wow very different. Obviously the breaks are huge for recovering strength and energy but very rarely is there much attention or intention focused on the break time in training. Many corners stress out and stress out their fighter, when the whole point of the break is rest and recovery and prep for the next round.
Developing a ritual(s) for between rounds where the focus is on recovery (which means the corner not yelling or talking excitedly the whole time) is huge in my opinion. The body learns by doing and rituals are familiar and comfortable. Doing them and intentionally focusing on recovery in training tells the mind and body in the ring that it is time to relax and recover - the mind and body go "ok, I know this" and the conditioned response to to rest and recover and prepare for the next round. Think of it like Pavlovs dog - bell rings with food enough times and the dogs salivates... condition the body and mind to respond to break times by recovering and it automatically goes into recovery state (you can set triggers on the body to move towards a relaxed state - such as rubbing your glove on your temple =can do anyway you want= but simply practicing recovery with intention and attention is HUGE.
Breaks are first for recovery, second for info on what to do or watch for (game plan) etc tell a fighter a million things and he won't remember and you'll be stressing him out and not allowing near as much recovery. He needs one or two bits of info presented calmly and I think near the end of the break. My opinion is the corners shut up - learn the fighters ritual between rounds and help provide a peaceful environment for recovery, offer one or two bits of info close to the end of the break clearly and calmly and stated positively (possibly and over all on the fight etc).
A powerful thing is thought. A single thought (science is behind this and you can demonstrate effects in seconds) shifts the fighters physiology immediately. Stressful and worrying thoughts release different chemicals energy flows differently than peaceful or calming thoughts. A warrior can turn on and off his focus on fighting in my opinion. Focusing on fighting in recovery uses up valuable resources. A simple trick that I have found powerful is to have one or two thoughts prepared (and used in training) ready to pull up in the break. The fighter only needs to focus on it for 2 or 3 seconds and it does shift his physiology and energy flows. The thought should be peaceful, beautiful, calming, wonderful... whatever works for them. I use to think about making love with my ex (this was used when we were together lol) i would literally smile in the corner. I held this thought for only a second or two. Scientifically and from my experience in training and fighting and working with fighters as well as being able to test it with strength tests leads me to believe this aids huge in recovery and increases strength etc - thoughts release different chemicals (such as neuropeptides) that go to the cells in our body, not just the brain but also immune system cells, heart cells, lung cells etc etc It immediately has a physical effect on our whole body.
Training for a 5 rounder (or anything) train recovery.
"Rest is a weapon." Jason Borne :)
This gets into between training sessions recovery also - sleep, food, active rest, fun, thoughts, water etc etc
Develop between round rituals ..the order at which stuff is done, when corners do what and in what order, planned thoughts on fight, on being strong, on recovering, on being positive, wonderful thought that makes you smile... could be leaning back on the ropes like Thais do before the round starts, banging gloves as heading back out, smiling on your way back to the corner - an intentional smile releases some of the same chemicals as a natural one... repeat a phrase in our mind for the first 30 seconds..
This stuff is big in terms of the mental game but also big in terms of physical recovery. The body learns by doing. By focusing intention and attention on recovery in training you prepare for recovery in a fight...
There are exceptions and degrees but over all I think training (running or bag or pads etc) should be about the same as your go and stop time fighting. Not just for the fighting part but for the recovery part.
You will use the energy systems differently doing 3 min rounds with a 2 minute break or a one minute break... training the same for both makes little sense to me unless the up coming fight isn't as important as later fights that you are training for that has different times for example...
To walk a different path from ones peers or to speak outside of the box is always met with extreme resistance (this is not directed at you beaty).
I would fit into the school (or at least use to) of what some call a MuayThai Nazi.. I am all about Thai style. In my experience, at least on a technique perspective, Thai style kicks ass for MuayThai rules fighting.
The reason MuayThai is dominant (my opinion) in SE Asia over Burmese boxing, Cambodian boxing, Laos boxing etc is nothing to do with Thai superiority but to do with the opportunity and frequency of fighting. The Thais have had the sport of stand up fighting developing in greater numbers for a long time in the last 100 years (or whatever it is).
My point is that it is little to do with Thais and more to do with circumstances. In the western world there have been circumstances that have lead to knowledge and development of understanding the human body in terms of exercise and fitness and conditioning.
Though in the West there are many schools of thought, most of the top strength and conditioning coaches that are not limited to one sport, seem to agree (as far as I can tell) that doing aerobic conditioning works best for a sport with aerobic demands and anaerobic conditioning best for sports with an anaerobic demand.
This is over simplified as the aerobic energy system starts right from the get go even if you move for 2 seconds... however the dominant system on high intensity movement is anaerobic. (there are more than two systems too). But training the anaerobic system does train the aerobic...
The energy system you train when kicking pads for 3 minutes will be much closer to the energy system you will use in a fight than running for an hour. The energy system is related to the muscles used and muscle movement also. Lifting weights (say squats) and running (though they may have benefits) do not train the same muscles in the same way for the same movements of kicking and punching etc Yes there are benefits and they may be worth working in to a degree, but they can never and will never conditioning the muscles, body, mind, energy system etc like kicking or punching will.
Training recovery is hugely over looked in my opinion also.
Imagine 1 round of 15 minutes... wow very different. Obviously the breaks are huge for recovering strength and energy but very rarely is there much attention or intention focused on the break time in training. Many corners stress out and stress out their fighter, when the whole point of the break is rest and recovery and prep for the next round.
Developing a ritual(s) for between rounds where the focus is on recovery (which means the corner not yelling or talking excitedly the whole time) is huge in my opinion. The body learns by doing and rituals are familiar and comfortable. Doing them and intentionally focusing on recovery in training tells the mind and body in the ring that it is time to relax and recover - the mind and body go "ok, I know this" and the conditioned response to to rest and recover and prepare for the next round. Think of it like Pavlovs dog - bell rings with food enough times and the dogs salivates... condition the body and mind to respond to break times by recovering and it automatically goes into recovery state (you can set triggers on the body to move towards a relaxed state - such as rubbing your glove on your temple =can do anyway you want= but simply practicing recovery with intention and attention is HUGE.
Breaks are first for recovery, second for info on what to do or watch for (game plan) etc tell a fighter a million things and he won't remember and you'll be stressing him out and not allowing near as much recovery. He needs one or two bits of info presented calmly and I think near the end of the break. My opinion is the corners shut up - learn the fighters ritual between rounds and help provide a peaceful environment for recovery, offer one or two bits of info close to the end of the break clearly and calmly and stated positively (possibly and over all on the fight etc).
A powerful thing is thought. A single thought (science is behind this and you can demonstrate effects in seconds) shifts the fighters physiology immediately. Stressful and worrying thoughts release different chemicals energy flows differently than peaceful or calming thoughts. A warrior can turn on and off his focus on fighting in my opinion. Focusing on fighting in recovery uses up valuable resources. A simple trick that I have found powerful is to have one or two thoughts prepared (and used in training) ready to pull up in the break. The fighter only needs to focus on it for 2 or 3 seconds and it does shift his physiology and energy flows. The thought should be peaceful, beautiful, calming, wonderful... whatever works for them. I use to think about making love with my ex (this was used when we were together lol) i would literally smile in the corner. I held this thought for only a second or two. Scientifically and from my experience in training and fighting and working with fighters as well as being able to test it with strength tests leads me to believe this aids huge in recovery and increases strength etc - thoughts release different chemicals (such as neuropeptides) that go to the cells in our body, not just the brain but also immune system cells, heart cells, lung cells etc etc It immediately has a physical effect on our whole body.
Training for a 5 rounder (or anything) train recovery.
"Rest is a weapon." Jason Borne :)
This gets into between training sessions recovery also - sleep, food, active rest, fun, thoughts, water etc etc
Develop between round rituals ..the order at which stuff is done, when corners do what and in what order, planned thoughts on fight, on being strong, on recovering, on being positive, wonderful thought that makes you smile... could be leaning back on the ropes like Thais do before the round starts, banging gloves as heading back out, smiling on your way back to the corner - an intentional smile releases some of the same chemicals as a natural one... repeat a phrase in our mind for the first 30 seconds..
This stuff is big in terms of the mental game but also big in terms of physical recovery. The body learns by doing. By focusing intention and attention on recovery in training you prepare for recovery in a fight...
There are exceptions and degrees but over all I think training (running or bag or pads etc) should be about the same as your go and stop time fighting. Not just for the fighting part but for the recovery part.
You will use the energy systems differently doing 3 min rounds with a 2 minute break or a one minute break... training the same for both makes little sense to me unless the up coming fight isn't as important as later fights that you are training for that has different times for example...
Training for a 5 round fight also means training for a 4 break fight in my opinion.. as a rule (some conditioning exceptions) training for breaks should be the same time as the break you will be having in the fight.
Th body and mind learn by doing. Do what you want it to do.
I don't want to fight low intensity for an hour so I don't train low intensity for an hour. I want to fight high intensity for 3 minutes with a 2 minute break. I train (mostly) for high intensity for 3 minutes with a two minute break when conditioning...
The body remembers what it does - do what you want it to do.
It remembers best what it does first and last (like reading a paragraph)...
When you finish training and or rounds tired, weak, sloppy etc you condition the body to be tired, weak and sloppy... yes you literally train your body to run out of energy by running out of energy all the time in training ( time and place to push? yes... my opinion it is way over done)...
Olympic lifters lift more in competition than they do in training...
One of the biggest things I notice with Thai training and fighting and farung training and fighting is that the Thais step it up in the ring and farung generally do better in training (certainly a gross generalization). though Thais run a lot etc the over state of a Thai in training is more relaxed - they play in training more and farung fight in training more... when you play and are having fun you use way less energy and can perform at a higher degree - they seem to stress out less... they seem to prepare for fights not fight in preparation. The conditioned body and mind are geared for high performance because you can always perform better when in a creative and fun place... fighting isn't a big stressful fear based gotta kill or be killed thing to them (as far as I can tell). For farung it seems to be this big gotta win ego thing where we train like our life is treatened - sure its a tough sport but its still a sport - train like you are going to fight for your life and you will be stressed by the fear you are covering up with anger and agression - you will be weaker and will never perform as well (watch Jordan run down the court or Samart play his game - imagine Jordan training with the same attitude and stress levels that most of us train with - I can't see him performing like he does on the court) even though fighting is serious and there has to be a serious component to training - training that is more playing conditions the body and mind to perform better as you can perform better when playing.
Needing to be tough... you can be tough weather or not you act tough in training... acting tough (angry, agressive etc) is a way of hiding from fear and covering it up.. it works to a degree but can never open up your potential like dealing with fear in other ways in my opinion.
The Thais, though they over train in my opinion, still train with a lot more play and much less effort in each movement in my opinion and observations.
Th body and mind learn by doing. Do what you want it to do.
I don't want to fight low intensity for an hour so I don't train low intensity for an hour. I want to fight high intensity for 3 minutes with a 2 minute break. I train (mostly) for high intensity for 3 minutes with a two minute break when conditioning...
The body remembers what it does - do what you want it to do.
It remembers best what it does first and last (like reading a paragraph)...
When you finish training and or rounds tired, weak, sloppy etc you condition the body to be tired, weak and sloppy... yes you literally train your body to run out of energy by running out of energy all the time in training ( time and place to push? yes... my opinion it is way over done)...
Olympic lifters lift more in competition than they do in training...
One of the biggest things I notice with Thai training and fighting and farung training and fighting is that the Thais step it up in the ring and farung generally do better in training (certainly a gross generalization). though Thais run a lot etc the over state of a Thai in training is more relaxed - they play in training more and farung fight in training more... when you play and are having fun you use way less energy and can perform at a higher degree - they seem to stress out less... they seem to prepare for fights not fight in preparation. The conditioned body and mind are geared for high performance because you can always perform better when in a creative and fun place... fighting isn't a big stressful fear based gotta kill or be killed thing to them (as far as I can tell). For farung it seems to be this big gotta win ego thing where we train like our life is treatened - sure its a tough sport but its still a sport - train like you are going to fight for your life and you will be stressed by the fear you are covering up with anger and agression - you will be weaker and will never perform as well (watch Jordan run down the court or Samart play his game - imagine Jordan training with the same attitude and stress levels that most of us train with - I can't see him performing like he does on the court) even though fighting is serious and there has to be a serious component to training - training that is more playing conditions the body and mind to perform better as you can perform better when playing.
Needing to be tough... you can be tough weather or not you act tough in training... acting tough (angry, agressive etc) is a way of hiding from fear and covering it up.. it works to a degree but can never open up your potential like dealing with fear in other ways in my opinion.
The Thais, though they over train in my opinion, still train with a lot more play and much less effort in each movement in my opinion and observations.
Mark L. i can see were your coming from with the thai's way of fighting very
playful and relaxed, my point is you say the thai's overtrain, but who are we
to judge the thai's at thaiboxing, if they say running is part of thaiboxing
training then im happy to encourage my own students to run, my own personal
opinion. and i always give my students options like if you dont want to run
you dont have to, in fact you dont have to do anything you dont want to do,
so its up to you run or go home its simple as that, but thats my way which
works well for me, you must understand when your a coach/trainer your students
health is No1 priority, and as i tell all my students i dont care about the
decision in a contest win/lose/draw it dosent matter to me but what does
matter is that my students dont get hurt, and up to now i have been lucky
(touchwood) and thats what i meant in my earlier statement if its not broken
why fix it, and the running is part of there training so thats why i keep it
going, i respect everyones own personal opinion on this thread, each to there
own, if it works for you keep it up.
playful and relaxed, my point is you say the thai's overtrain, but who are we
to judge the thai's at thaiboxing, if they say running is part of thaiboxing
training then im happy to encourage my own students to run, my own personal
opinion. and i always give my students options like if you dont want to run
you dont have to, in fact you dont have to do anything you dont want to do,
so its up to you run or go home its simple as that, but thats my way which
works well for me, you must understand when your a coach/trainer your students
health is No1 priority, and as i tell all my students i dont care about the
decision in a contest win/lose/draw it dosent matter to me but what does
matter is that my students dont get hurt, and up to now i have been lucky
(touchwood) and thats what i meant in my earlier statement if its not broken
why fix it, and the running is part of there training so thats why i keep it
going, i respect everyones own personal opinion on this thread, each to there
own, if it works for you keep it up.
Mark L. i can see were your coming from with the thai's way of fighting very
playful and relaxed, my point is you say the thai's overtrain, but who are we
to judge the thai's at thaiboxing, if they say running is part of thaiboxing
training then im happy to encourage my own students to run, my own personal
opinion. and i always give my students options like if you dont want to run
you dont have to, in fact you dont have to do anything you dont want to do,
so its up to you run or go home its simple as that, but thats my way which
works well for me, you must understand when your a coach/trainer your students
health is No1 priority, and as i tell all my students i dont care about the
decision in a contest win/lose/draw it dosent matter to me but what does
matter is that my students dont get hurt, and up to now i have been lucky
(touchwood) and thats what i meant in my earlier statement if its not broken
why fix it, and the running is part of there training so thats why i keep it
going, i respect everyones own personal opinion on this thread, each to there
own, if it works for you keep it up.
playful and relaxed, my point is you say the thai's overtrain, but who are we
to judge the thai's at thaiboxing, if they say running is part of thaiboxing
training then im happy to encourage my own students to run, my own personal
opinion. and i always give my students options like if you dont want to run
you dont have to, in fact you dont have to do anything you dont want to do,
so its up to you run or go home its simple as that, but thats my way which
works well for me, you must understand when your a coach/trainer your students
health is No1 priority, and as i tell all my students i dont care about the
decision in a contest win/lose/draw it dosent matter to me but what does
matter is that my students dont get hurt, and up to now i have been lucky
(touchwood) and thats what i meant in my earlier statement if its not broken
why fix it, and the running is part of there training so thats why i keep it
going, i respect everyones own personal opinion on this thread, each to there
own, if it works for you keep it up.
sorry for the DP, damn computer
Its seems we have different points of view in some areas and similar ones also. :)
Such is life.:)
Thai culture has that to a degree... well at least depending on the person offering a different view point. It would be disrespectful for someone who is not as high up in the class system to suggest to the boss of gym owner or head trainer another possibility. The Poo yai (yai means big and fittingly big shit would translate ok) or top dog in the gym (not necessarily the most experienced or skilled in MuayThai) says how it is done.
I have had a few old fighters (young trainers) etc suggest to me not to train too intensely and spend more time 'playing' (Thai style sparring). Former big names at Sor Tanikul... Now of course I interpret their words and maybe they could be heard differently...
I also find it interesting how young Thais are when they are past it when in the West ones prime is often later... In the West we over train even more in some ways because we are adding training on top of work, family and hectic life styles (all take stress and energy) We do often start much later. I use to chalk it up to Thais starting early.. My studies on health fitness, exercise etc lead me to now believe they are simply over doing it.
Some of the top gyms don't let their fighters fight too much or train to intensely all the time. Keep in mind the Thais fight for money and the gyms that own them make them fight and dictate training because of money. The fighters best interests and long term health are not very important when the pool of fighters is so high - similar to US football players... the pool is so big how they train or take care of their health isn't very important... the few that last longer in the game train and take care of themselves and don't do what the rest do, at least this is my understanding... its limited though a good friend of mine works with a pro US football team as well as many elite athletes... Look at how many seasons the average player plays...
Most Thais run and the Thais dominate in their weight classes... I for one feel as a fighter (former) I must always strive to improve in any way I can and if there is good evidence that something else might be be better I can not settle for good enough cause it ain't broke... But that is just me.
Such is life.:)
Thai culture has that to a degree... well at least depending on the person offering a different view point. It would be disrespectful for someone who is not as high up in the class system to suggest to the boss of gym owner or head trainer another possibility. The Poo yai (yai means big and fittingly big shit would translate ok) or top dog in the gym (not necessarily the most experienced or skilled in MuayThai) says how it is done.
I have had a few old fighters (young trainers) etc suggest to me not to train too intensely and spend more time 'playing' (Thai style sparring). Former big names at Sor Tanikul... Now of course I interpret their words and maybe they could be heard differently...
I also find it interesting how young Thais are when they are past it when in the West ones prime is often later... In the West we over train even more in some ways because we are adding training on top of work, family and hectic life styles (all take stress and energy) We do often start much later. I use to chalk it up to Thais starting early.. My studies on health fitness, exercise etc lead me to now believe they are simply over doing it.
Some of the top gyms don't let their fighters fight too much or train to intensely all the time. Keep in mind the Thais fight for money and the gyms that own them make them fight and dictate training because of money. The fighters best interests and long term health are not very important when the pool of fighters is so high - similar to US football players... the pool is so big how they train or take care of their health isn't very important... the few that last longer in the game train and take care of themselves and don't do what the rest do, at least this is my understanding... its limited though a good friend of mine works with a pro US football team as well as many elite athletes... Look at how many seasons the average player plays...
Most Thais run and the Thais dominate in their weight classes... I for one feel as a fighter (former) I must always strive to improve in any way I can and if there is good evidence that something else might be be better I can not settle for good enough cause it ain't broke... But that is just me.
Richard Weir
Posted: 2008-07-09 01:18:39
Posted: 2008-07-09 01:18:39
"who are we to judge the thai's at thaiboxing?"
That's exactly the mentality that is holding back progress, IMO. Beaty, I'm not rounding on you or anything, but it is high time people took a step back and really put the whole discipline under the microscope. The second we stop ruthlessly questioning the veracity of the methods and improving upon them is the second the sport starts to die.
Maybe it is broken already and needs fixing?
Great posts btw Mark; your ideas about recovery between rounds are food for thought.
That's exactly the mentality that is holding back progress, IMO. Beaty, I'm not rounding on you or anything, but it is high time people took a step back and really put the whole discipline under the microscope. The second we stop ruthlessly questioning the veracity of the methods and improving upon them is the second the sport starts to die.
Maybe it is broken already and needs fixing?
Great posts btw Mark; your ideas about recovery between rounds are food for thought.
I agree that not questioning teachers or those who even get better results than us even to be limiting. I think learning from them is huge and obviously the Thais have a lot to offer... but just because someone is succeeding doesn't mean they are doing it the way that would be best for me or that they couldn't improve.
Thank you Richard, its feels nice when people agree... of course I don't really know if its true... what is true? :)
I do think that trained recovery is huge... The body learns by doing, by experience, as does the mind (our minds thoughts about what we are doing are also huge). Train to have a slow use of energy for 1 hour and that is what your body learns. Train to be fatigued and tired by training till fatigued and tired and your body learns to be fatigued and tired. At least that is my limited experience.
When tired we try harder, when we are tired and taught to push and try harder we do learn to keep going but we also learn to try harder... meaning we flex and strain and push what works best when relaxed. There is a line and a fighter does need to push... but always pushing teaches you to always push but also teaches you to always be tired and strain and use way more energy than is needed in my opinion.
Some interesting ideas are presented in "Invincible Athletes" (think that is the title... audio and workbook set on training around ayurvedic principles..
If an olympic athlete knew his event was to be at 2pm then it would serve performance well to train, if possible, at 2 pm... or at least once a week, say his competition day, to train as close to the performance as possible (say a 500 meter run - warm up, maybe some mental, prepare and then run 500 meters) the body and mind become conditioned to perform from training... not suggesting 10pm training the greatest idea all the time (if thats when fights would be) but the principles of teaching your body to do what, when and how you want it to in competition...
If you go to bed every day at 10pm you condition the body to wind down and prepare for rest atthat time. If you go to bed at 1am all the time you condition the body for that... routine and habit create body and mind responses to facilitate what it is use to...
Do a 15 min round and see how much less energy it takes than having the 1 or 2 min breaks... Obviously break time is huge for recovery... why not condition the body to use the recovery? Why not get the most out of it? Why not consciously and intentionally create a situation where the body learns to slow down and recover? What do you think a 10% increase in recovery would do to the next round. Maybe people are mentally fighting in the breaks... the brain takes something like 25% of our oxygen intake... thoughts and emotions take energy and release different chemicals and hormones. Fighting is stressful and stress uses loads of resources and energy... breaks should prepare for fighting, not be fighting in the mind... I feel a fighter should be easily able to turn it on and off and ultimately and ideally be able to be peaceful and relaxed while fighting... that is more of a master though I think all can move in that direction.. I don't think it is that crazy and I think it is much easier, with powerful results to move in that direction during down time, breaks, between rounds... between training sessions etc also...
I have seen many fighters in a zone hours before their fight. They think they need to prepare... training is finished... preparing for battle hours before is rest and recovery. mentally going over thing is great and powerful but not being zoned out in a fight state...
Similar principles when working the bag... you are alert and ready but when not hitting the body can be in a relaxed place of readiness... not tense and fighting when no fighting is happening (course ones mental state is a little different but on and off as need be or chosen to be instead of stress and tense on all the time)
Watch Jordan dribble up the court and take a shot... does he look stressed out?
Ali, Samart, Boom Boom Mancini... you can do your thing without trying so hard... of course if training is always pushing you to be stressed and tense and forcing it out then that likely all you will ever be able to do in the ring.
The Thais train relaxed for the most part in my opinion... i do think they over train but even in that (if they do) they still maintain a much greater relaxed state... sebai sebai, mai pen rai :)
I think between rounds etc is very under estimated and that time can be used to use the mental to change the body's chemical, hormonal and energy flows and to enter each round stronger than the last.
Thank you Richard, its feels nice when people agree... of course I don't really know if its true... what is true? :)
I do think that trained recovery is huge... The body learns by doing, by experience, as does the mind (our minds thoughts about what we are doing are also huge). Train to have a slow use of energy for 1 hour and that is what your body learns. Train to be fatigued and tired by training till fatigued and tired and your body learns to be fatigued and tired. At least that is my limited experience.
When tired we try harder, when we are tired and taught to push and try harder we do learn to keep going but we also learn to try harder... meaning we flex and strain and push what works best when relaxed. There is a line and a fighter does need to push... but always pushing teaches you to always push but also teaches you to always be tired and strain and use way more energy than is needed in my opinion.
Some interesting ideas are presented in "Invincible Athletes" (think that is the title... audio and workbook set on training around ayurvedic principles..
If an olympic athlete knew his event was to be at 2pm then it would serve performance well to train, if possible, at 2 pm... or at least once a week, say his competition day, to train as close to the performance as possible (say a 500 meter run - warm up, maybe some mental, prepare and then run 500 meters) the body and mind become conditioned to perform from training... not suggesting 10pm training the greatest idea all the time (if thats when fights would be) but the principles of teaching your body to do what, when and how you want it to in competition...
If you go to bed every day at 10pm you condition the body to wind down and prepare for rest atthat time. If you go to bed at 1am all the time you condition the body for that... routine and habit create body and mind responses to facilitate what it is use to...
Do a 15 min round and see how much less energy it takes than having the 1 or 2 min breaks... Obviously break time is huge for recovery... why not condition the body to use the recovery? Why not get the most out of it? Why not consciously and intentionally create a situation where the body learns to slow down and recover? What do you think a 10% increase in recovery would do to the next round. Maybe people are mentally fighting in the breaks... the brain takes something like 25% of our oxygen intake... thoughts and emotions take energy and release different chemicals and hormones. Fighting is stressful and stress uses loads of resources and energy... breaks should prepare for fighting, not be fighting in the mind... I feel a fighter should be easily able to turn it on and off and ultimately and ideally be able to be peaceful and relaxed while fighting... that is more of a master though I think all can move in that direction.. I don't think it is that crazy and I think it is much easier, with powerful results to move in that direction during down time, breaks, between rounds... between training sessions etc also...
I have seen many fighters in a zone hours before their fight. They think they need to prepare... training is finished... preparing for battle hours before is rest and recovery. mentally going over thing is great and powerful but not being zoned out in a fight state...
Similar principles when working the bag... you are alert and ready but when not hitting the body can be in a relaxed place of readiness... not tense and fighting when no fighting is happening (course ones mental state is a little different but on and off as need be or chosen to be instead of stress and tense on all the time)
Watch Jordan dribble up the court and take a shot... does he look stressed out?
Ali, Samart, Boom Boom Mancini... you can do your thing without trying so hard... of course if training is always pushing you to be stressed and tense and forcing it out then that likely all you will ever be able to do in the ring.
The Thais train relaxed for the most part in my opinion... i do think they over train but even in that (if they do) they still maintain a much greater relaxed state... sebai sebai, mai pen rai :)
I think between rounds etc is very under estimated and that time can be used to use the mental to change the body's chemical, hormonal and energy flows and to enter each round stronger than the last.
For what it's worth (which isn't much!) I injured myself before my last fight and couldn't run at all, but I did cycling, swimming and used the cross trainer in the gym and that worked just as well. I think I'd rather do a different cardio workout well (becuase I think I'd prefer having bamboo shoved under my nails to running), than slog through a run which I find boring and don't perform well at.
Aarayan - if I may offer a thought.. when cycling as often and as much as you can, keep your ton
gue on the roof of your mouth (where it goes when you swallow)...this is key as much as possible in life..this is the tongues physiological rest position and is always good to do for a few reasons... one of those reasons is it helps connect the left and right brain hemispheres.. well cycling specifically throws you off a little and keeping your tongue in its physiological rest position will help a lot.
In Chinese medicine this also closes a Qi loop that runs from the tip of your tongue down the front middle of your body down and around past your genitals, perineum, bum up your back, over your head down your face over and back up behind your front teeth on the top of your mouth. Very different Qi flow (can close a circuit during lovemaking by connecting with the tongues with the loop flowing in a circle through you both)
It also closes a feed back loop of your neck musculature and makes you way way stronger in the shoulders/neck in clinching or if you got hit etc - can feel the difference big time - try it.
Anyway, for cycling specifically (and left leg-left arm, right leg-right arm movements like fore hand in tennis when the same leg and arm move) its a key thing to consider.. (cross crawl pattern, like running, walking etc help to link both hemispheres - actually one of a few reasons babies should be left to crawl and not so encouraged to walk.. the cross-crawl pattern is huge in their development)
gue on the roof of your mouth (where it goes when you swallow)...this is key as much as possible in life..this is the tongues physiological rest position and is always good to do for a few reasons... one of those reasons is it helps connect the left and right brain hemispheres.. well cycling specifically throws you off a little and keeping your tongue in its physiological rest position will help a lot.
In Chinese medicine this also closes a Qi loop that runs from the tip of your tongue down the front middle of your body down and around past your genitals, perineum, bum up your back, over your head down your face over and back up behind your front teeth on the top of your mouth. Very different Qi flow (can close a circuit during lovemaking by connecting with the tongues with the loop flowing in a circle through you both)
It also closes a feed back loop of your neck musculature and makes you way way stronger in the shoulders/neck in clinching or if you got hit etc - can feel the difference big time - try it.
Anyway, for cycling specifically (and left leg-left arm, right leg-right arm movements like fore hand in tennis when the same leg and arm move) its a key thing to consider.. (cross crawl pattern, like running, walking etc help to link both hemispheres - actually one of a few reasons babies should be left to crawl and not so encouraged to walk.. the cross-crawl pattern is huge in their development)
Train to the specific energy demands of your sport: The human body uses different systems of energy depending first on the intensity and second on the duration of the activity. For years, “road work” was considered the cornerstone of conditioning for boxers. While running may have its place in combat sport training, jogging for several miles at a time does not “mirror” the biological energy demands of the sport. Whether the athlete is in a boxing, MMA, wrestling, or point sparring match, he or she is typically not required to maintain an steady, constant, low level aerobic demand over a half-hour period with no rest.
Instead, the sport generally requires multiple, intermittent “bursts” of power at maximal or near-maximal levels, with several-second periods of “rest” in between. The oxygen and metabolic energy demands are quite different in these two activities. So sprints and interval-type training, for example, match the sport-specific energy demands better than a four-mile jog. You will fatigue much less quickly when you have trained your body to anticipate the sport-specific energy demands of competition.
-Dr. Randy Borum
http://combatsportpsychology.blogspot.com/
hey Rockster :)
, iv had a few 5x2's and i just try and fit road work , technique and power work in every day.
3-4 mile run in the morning timing myself for cardio and weight loss (do it in sweats if your heavy) bit of stretching and either abit of bag work or just some nice easy shadow boxing ,
after college i go to a gym (or with my dad) and do an 1 1/2 or 2 hour class session (Hard pads , sparring , skipping , clinchwork , pressups , situps , any techniques that need working , 1 on 1 ect ect) after about 20 minutes skipping.
and as the fight gets closer , the runs become smaller and more intense ,
in the end being just either 10-20 sprints ,
plus the sparring becomes alittle more serious
(still doing a few miles if your weights up)
and i do that 6 days a week with saturday completely off
to rest , and in the last week before a fight the training tones down
so my body can recouperate ,
hope that might help you in some way mate ,
Jonno
, iv had a few 5x2's and i just try and fit road work , technique and power work in every day.
3-4 mile run in the morning timing myself for cardio and weight loss (do it in sweats if your heavy) bit of stretching and either abit of bag work or just some nice easy shadow boxing ,
after college i go to a gym (or with my dad) and do an 1 1/2 or 2 hour class session (Hard pads , sparring , skipping , clinchwork , pressups , situps , any techniques that need working , 1 on 1 ect ect) after about 20 minutes skipping.
and as the fight gets closer , the runs become smaller and more intense ,
in the end being just either 10-20 sprints ,
plus the sparring becomes alittle more serious
(still doing a few miles if your weights up)
and i do that 6 days a week with saturday completely off
to rest , and in the last week before a fight the training tones down
so my body can recouperate ,
hope that might help you in some way mate ,
Jonno
I have had a number of 5x2 round fights over the years and as someone who has always struggled to find the time to condition properly between school/work/family I have gone through a lot of trial and error to learn what gets results and what is a waste of time.
I will describe my best and worst 5x2 fights and what kind of conditioning went into both of them. Mark L, you would probably remember them both since they where both in BC!
My worst 5 round fight was my first one (vs Mark Woulnough)
What I did: Jogged slow for about 1.5 hours about 4 days per week
What Happened: I made weight but looked and felt very skinny and weak. I was completely out of gas after round 3 and lost the fight on a close decision.
My best 5 round fight (vs Clint Hale)
What I did: Very high intensity shadow boxing, bag work and pad work for 2 hours (3 minute rounds, 1 minute break), 5 days per week. I mean VERY high intensity, like I could not talk between rounds. Virtually NO running!
What happened: I made weight and I looked and felt in the best shape of my life, had lots of energy and strength for pretty much the whole fight, ended up winning a close decision against a very tough opponent.
I have never done a long distance run since then except to lose weight and not within 1 month of my fight. The way you train is the way you fight. In training, I would recommend spending a good portion of your time throwing shots with 100% power. If you can keep it up for 5 rounds in training, then you will likely be able to do it in fighting!
More recently, I have experimented with training 2 minute rounds (if you are fighting 2 minute rounds) at high intensity. It definitely works as long as you are going as hard as you would in a fight.
I will describe my best and worst 5x2 fights and what kind of conditioning went into both of them. Mark L, you would probably remember them both since they where both in BC!
My worst 5 round fight was my first one (vs Mark Woulnough)
What I did: Jogged slow for about 1.5 hours about 4 days per week
What Happened: I made weight but looked and felt very skinny and weak. I was completely out of gas after round 3 and lost the fight on a close decision.
My best 5 round fight (vs Clint Hale)
What I did: Very high intensity shadow boxing, bag work and pad work for 2 hours (3 minute rounds, 1 minute break), 5 days per week. I mean VERY high intensity, like I could not talk between rounds. Virtually NO running!
What happened: I made weight and I looked and felt in the best shape of my life, had lots of energy and strength for pretty much the whole fight, ended up winning a close decision against a very tough opponent.
I have never done a long distance run since then except to lose weight and not within 1 month of my fight. The way you train is the way you fight. In training, I would recommend spending a good portion of your time throwing shots with 100% power. If you can keep it up for 5 rounds in training, then you will likely be able to do it in fighting!
More recently, I have experimented with training 2 minute rounds (if you are fighting 2 minute rounds) at high intensity. It definitely works as long as you are going as hard as you would in a fight.
Thanks Zubair...
Makes sense to me, train how you want to fight... jog for an hour or throw hard shots for 3 minx 5?
Makes sense to me, train how you want to fight... jog for an hour or throw hard shots for 3 minx 5?
Tom
Posted: 2009-02-14 16:46:03
Posted: 2009-02-14 16:46:03
Yeah, the prob is making weight forces the endurance run. I still think a good hour plus hill run per week is beneficial: it pushes you very far mentally, and it establishes a solid aerobic foundation, which still has its purpose in the ring.
I now do interval runs in the morning and one long tough hill in the weekends. I find this mix to be real nice.
Definitely agree that jogging every morning is at odds with a 5 x 2 or 5 x 3 fight. That said, it's good for weight gains and the Thai's all jog daily (but they do also do sh*t load of explosive pads daily too :)).
I now do interval runs in the morning and one long tough hill in the weekends. I find this mix to be real nice.
Definitely agree that jogging every morning is at odds with a 5 x 2 or 5 x 3 fight. That said, it's good for weight gains and the Thai's all jog daily (but they do also do sh*t load of explosive pads daily too :)).
One aspect besides the conditioning (which I believe is movement specific) is "slow", "medium" and "fast" twitch muscle fibers.
Fast can be turned to slow to a degree and medium to fast or slow to a degree but for the most part fast can't go to slow and once you change to slow you're pretty much stuck there.
If, as a child, you do endurance training or sport and as an adult you want to be in a power sport... well you already are limited by the amount of slow twitch you developed.
MuayThai is a power sport... running for hours creates muscle fibers that are good at endurance and, you guessed it, running for hours. Slow twitch muscle fibers, best used for going and going and going (at a lower intensity) are not great at explosiveness and power.
If you train power and endurance (not relative to sport your in - MuayThai 3 min - +2 min break for 5 rounds = 15 mins of action with 2 min breaks every 3 min - so running an hour for a 15 min event - with breaks) the muscles will go more towards slow twitch than fast (especially the mid)
Pretty much limited for life here...
Been a long time since I studied this but I think as a rough view that is pretty accurate.
Fast can be turned to slow to a degree and medium to fast or slow to a degree but for the most part fast can't go to slow and once you change to slow you're pretty much stuck there.
If, as a child, you do endurance training or sport and as an adult you want to be in a power sport... well you already are limited by the amount of slow twitch you developed.
MuayThai is a power sport... running for hours creates muscle fibers that are good at endurance and, you guessed it, running for hours. Slow twitch muscle fibers, best used for going and going and going (at a lower intensity) are not great at explosiveness and power.
If you train power and endurance (not relative to sport your in - MuayThai 3 min - +2 min break for 5 rounds = 15 mins of action with 2 min breaks every 3 min - so running an hour for a 15 min event - with breaks) the muscles will go more towards slow twitch than fast (especially the mid)
Pretty much limited for life here...
Been a long time since I studied this but I think as a rough view that is pretty accurate.
One thing I would do for a five round fight is once a week, when getting close, is to do as intense a five rounds as I could (bag or pads). Do on the same day and time you would fight - if possible) and just do loads of technique the day before and have a recovery day after.(can do technique after etc too).
Get the body use to and ready for pretty much as close to what you will be doing as possible.You can never put as much into each round on 10 rounds as you can in put into each round on 5. Try to do using maybe 80-90% of resources and energy (assuming you have enough recovery)...
110% in my opinion just means you are constantly using more energy than you have.. great to get tough until you fall apart
Get the body use to and ready for pretty much as close to what you will be doing as possible.You can never put as much into each round on 10 rounds as you can in put into each round on 5. Try to do using maybe 80-90% of resources and energy (assuming you have enough recovery)...
110% in my opinion just means you are constantly using more energy than you have.. great to get tough until you fall apart
Mark,
What about training for 5x3 with 1 minute breaks? I would imagine this becomes slightly more aerobic since the short break reduces recovery? WHat are your thoughts on preparing for this?
What about training for 5x3 with 1 minute breaks? I would imagine this becomes slightly more aerobic since the short break reduces recovery? WHat are your thoughts on preparing for this?
Depends if you are fighting with 1 min breaks or 2 IMO.
As a starting point I would do as close to fight. IF intensity is high enough and IF recovery time is enough to bring heart rate down and have enough energy to keep next round high intensity with adequate power/speed and technique etc then I would consider shortening the break sometimes.
More aerobic is great if you are competing using more aerobic energy systems.
Increased duration = decreased intensity potential
Decreased duration = increased intensity potential
That's just simple logic and physiology
I don't care if you can kick straight for an hour, you will never kick as hard as if you kick for 3min.
In a fight do you want to be able to kick with lower intensity for an hour or higher intensity for 3 min with x break times y rounds?
As a starting point I would do as close to fight. IF intensity is high enough and IF recovery time is enough to bring heart rate down and have enough energy to keep next round high intensity with adequate power/speed and technique etc then I would consider shortening the break sometimes.
More aerobic is great if you are competing using more aerobic energy systems.
Increased duration = decreased intensity potential
Decreased duration = increased intensity potential
That's just simple logic and physiology
I don't care if you can kick straight for an hour, you will never kick as hard as if you kick for 3min.
In a fight do you want to be able to kick with lower intensity for an hour or higher intensity for 3 min with x break times y rounds?
Sorry I wasn't clear:
I mean how would you advise training for a fight that was 5x3 with 1 minute breaks. Obviously in the gym I would follow the same model, but in terms of running and other exercises, do you think this sort of match would call on more aerobic energy than having 2 minute breaks?
I am already with you on simulating round times in training :-)
I mean how would you advise training for a fight that was 5x3 with 1 minute breaks. Obviously in the gym I would follow the same model, but in terms of running and other exercises, do you think this sort of match would call on more aerobic energy than having 2 minute breaks?
I am already with you on simulating round times in training :-)
Absolutely shorter recovery means relatively more of an aerobic out put in my opinion.
"What we have here is a failure to communicate" - just watched "Cool Hand Luke" again lol
That is one reason I like two minute breaks as a fan... the fighters have a greater capacity for power and explosiveness.
I am more interested in power and explosiveness and potential for more action per min than endurance and stamina.
(off topic - what do you think of hands and elbows with MMA gloves as a sport 3min with 2 min breaks 5 rounds. More MuayThai style judging than boxing LOL)
"What we have here is a failure to communicate" - just watched "Cool Hand Luke" again lol
That is one reason I like two minute breaks as a fan... the fighters have a greater capacity for power and explosiveness.
I am more interested in power and explosiveness and potential for more action per min than endurance and stamina.
(off topic - what do you think of hands and elbows with MMA gloves as a sport 3min with 2 min breaks 5 rounds. More MuayThai style judging than boxing LOL)
I've seen various different UFC fighters training routines on ufc all access and I know it not our beautiful sport, the one's I've seen are all very different in their training principles but each is the same in one thing "Intensity" none of the figters I've seen have gased out in any of their fights. I like doing shark bait with my fighters where one stays in the middle of the ring and one by one he fights every fighter for either 30 seconds or a minute the others wait on the outside and go in one by one, I don't do it all the time but it's intense :)
think the Thais run to help there legs take the punishment.not fitness
I think a lot of Thais run to keep weight down. I also know some gyms and or fighters don't run (course most of them skip or jump on tire etc but not all).
I have had some older Thais, former fighters, tell me oposite to what most gyms do and what many trainers says and teach.
I think if you are training for a 5x3 fight that the ideal conditioning in terms of "cardio" if to do 5x3 w/2min break on pads/back or sparing (caution on hard sparing in my opinion & experience). All out and leave it all in the ring. I don't care how conditioned you are or think you are, you can use up all energy in that time - jus go harder if not. This will completely wipe you out and should be done only to the degree you can recover from. Once or twice a week, evern for very high level pro's in my opinion. You can go harder that you ever have in your life in 5 rounds than pretty much anything else. just as you can in 20 rounds but in 20 rounds you will never ever kick as hard or as fast or as powerfully or acurately as you will in five.
If you want to leave it ALL in the ring then don't train 10 rounds more than you will be fighting - left over energy after 5 rounds to do 5 more may have a deciving effect on confidence (and that might be worth it - but other ways to do in my opinion - but what the hell do you want energy for after the fight. You train to have more after 5 then want to fight and use all in five??? That doesn't make sense to me.
I garantee you can go harder than you can handle in 5 rounds. I think if you can go all out and give it your all, I mean everything (wouldn't want to do every week imo) then I think you will feel more confident than stretching out your energy and power and speed and intensity for ten rounds.
As a sprinter I would not feel more confident about a 400 meter race cause I train to run 5 miles - thats just rediculous in my thinking yet that is the thought process, as I see it, for fight conditioning.
If i can run 5 miles at x pace, even if mixing up with sprinting etc, I don't feel more confident about winning a 400 meter race. I may feel confident i can continue for 400 meters but i sure as hell wouldn't think it would help me win as opposed to sprinting 400 meters for training.
(loosely using examples)
I have had some older Thais, former fighters, tell me oposite to what most gyms do and what many trainers says and teach.
I think if you are training for a 5x3 fight that the ideal conditioning in terms of "cardio" if to do 5x3 w/2min break on pads/back or sparing (caution on hard sparing in my opinion & experience). All out and leave it all in the ring. I don't care how conditioned you are or think you are, you can use up all energy in that time - jus go harder if not. This will completely wipe you out and should be done only to the degree you can recover from. Once or twice a week, evern for very high level pro's in my opinion. You can go harder that you ever have in your life in 5 rounds than pretty much anything else. just as you can in 20 rounds but in 20 rounds you will never ever kick as hard or as fast or as powerfully or acurately as you will in five.
If you want to leave it ALL in the ring then don't train 10 rounds more than you will be fighting - left over energy after 5 rounds to do 5 more may have a deciving effect on confidence (and that might be worth it - but other ways to do in my opinion - but what the hell do you want energy for after the fight. You train to have more after 5 then want to fight and use all in five??? That doesn't make sense to me.
I garantee you can go harder than you can handle in 5 rounds. I think if you can go all out and give it your all, I mean everything (wouldn't want to do every week imo) then I think you will feel more confident than stretching out your energy and power and speed and intensity for ten rounds.
As a sprinter I would not feel more confident about a 400 meter race cause I train to run 5 miles - thats just rediculous in my thinking yet that is the thought process, as I see it, for fight conditioning.
If i can run 5 miles at x pace, even if mixing up with sprinting etc, I don't feel more confident about winning a 400 meter race. I may feel confident i can continue for 400 meters but i sure as hell wouldn't think it would help me win as opposed to sprinting 400 meters for training.
(loosely using examples)
I use to do interval runs.run as fast as i could for 2 mins around a running track rest for a minute and go again X5 times...also on a soccer pitch id jog from corner fag to half way line then sprint across the half line,jog half way line to corner flag then sprint corner flag to corner flag,same again 2mins on 1 min rest X5 times.
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If I were to run it would be similar time intervals.
I use to run a track (you could measure distances) and do 2 laps in three or less minutes alternating the pace. To make three min its run or run faster or sprint. Then I'd rest until my heart rate was down low enough and then do again.
This way I figure you train the recovery and go into the run fresh. Over time bringing the recovery down to 2 min (I was training for 2 min breaks) or maybe a little less... I think learning to use the recovery as much as possible is a greater benefit than shortening it and trying to do more with less.
I'd also only do the as many rounds as I could do at a high intensity and making the time. And gage so I'd always be able to do it and never come short (as much as possible) then with intensity high, over time build the rounds up.
I use to run a track (you could measure distances) and do 2 laps in three or less minutes alternating the pace. To make three min its run or run faster or sprint. Then I'd rest until my heart rate was down low enough and then do again.
This way I figure you train the recovery and go into the run fresh. Over time bringing the recovery down to 2 min (I was training for 2 min breaks) or maybe a little less... I think learning to use the recovery as much as possible is a greater benefit than shortening it and trying to do more with less.
I'd also only do the as many rounds as I could do at a high intensity and making the time. And gage so I'd always be able to do it and never come short (as much as possible) then with intensity high, over time build the rounds up.
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