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The Ax Forum
Muay Thai & Kickboxing Forum Mixed Martial Arts Forum Boxing Forum Fight Training Forum Off Topic Forum
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Posted: 2006-05-16 21:41:28
Buakaw's training regimen?

Hey guys.
Anyone happen to have information on Buakaws training regimen? That guy has amazing endurance and explosiveness!
Posted: 2006-05-16 23:00:29
from another forum:
I found an article about him and his training heres just the trainig part.

Buakao follows a very arduous training regime that sees him get up at 6:00 AM for a 12 kilometer run which is then followed by pad and bag work and conditioning exercises.

The rest of the morning and early afternoon is time for more sleep to let the body recover for the afternoon session. The afternoon training starts with another long run of 8 kilometers. As soon as the boxers are back from the run, they grab the nearest punch bag and throw a set of 200 knees on the bag. This is followed by a pad session with their trainer. Buakao does one round on the pads, but it is 20 minutes long with just 2 very short breaks to get a drink of water.

He holds a very fast pace throughout the 20 minutes, forcing the pad man back, with his lightning fast heavy round kicks. After the pad session its time for him to hit the bags again, this time its 2 rounds of 10 minutes duration with sets of push ups between the rounds and at the end. Buakao also has an international boxing coach there, to take him on the hand pads, and work on his boxing defense. He approaches everything he does in the gym, with a single minded dedication and sets a relentless pace throughout. Following on from the boxing session its back into the ring for a 45 minute session of clinch and knee work. With his stable mates Chokdee Por Pramuk and Namsaknoi Yuthgarngamthon, both boxers taking it in turns to work with Buakao.

After the clinch work there is still time for another set of 200 knees on the bag, followed by 100 kicks with each leg. Then it’s just the conditioning work to do including 100 pull ups and 300 sit ups.
Posted: 2006-05-16 23:31:24
holly shit!!
I am tired just by reading it....
Posted: 2006-05-17 00:01:32
that guy sounds fucking dedicated
Posted: 2006-05-17 00:10:20
Thats why he is the best there is.
Hot Sizzle
Posted: 2006-05-17 00:48:33
He has to train that hard to be ready for all the extension rounds he controversily gets in the K1 Max tournament, and yet he still looks fresh at the end of it. That's some serious training though. But as you said, thats why he's the best there is.
ercan gürgöze
Posted: 2006-05-17 01:35:50
2000 left kicks ...again 1000 left kicks! that you forget to throw one single right kick in k-1!...
Posted: 2006-05-17 01:51:33
Its kind of tough to determine what he has been doing because he was training in the gym behind Lumpinee and P.Pramuk on the river. From what I recall Rob Cox went out there last year and got some photos of him so maybe he would be able to give people some insight.
Posted: 2006-05-17 10:31:47
That's funny Ercan!
Posted: 2006-05-17 10:34:19
thats pretty much what I saw when I went there Sting, that article was from a piece I wrote for Sherdog, just before he won the MAX
Mark L.
Posted: 2006-05-17 12:56:28
I don't think thats why he's the best there is...

I think alot more makes up a fighter than his training reg..

If your genetics are great for fighting you can train against what you want and still have great results (of course loads of mental stuff etc too)

Its like American football players. There is such a big pool to choose from that the guys getting picked are so talented and gifted and have such amazing nervous systems that you can train them like shit and get great results (train them for strength conditioning). Its interesting how few seasons most get to play.

You can train a very fast guy with great reflexes and the nervous system of a panther to be slow and he'll still be quick (tho not as quick as he could be). Train a guy with a slow nervous system etc that way and they won't get far at all.

Posted: 2006-05-18 02:17:00
i trained like this at jitti's for 3-months and it didnt turn me in buakow!!!! :)

I was certainly fitter than when I arrived though....

Technique is a slow learning process... I think this level of understanding only comes when you have grown up with it, and its in your blood!
Posted: 2006-05-18 03:07:09
I agree with Mark and Noi666 in regards to what they have said. Many things that humans do well is because of early influences, Tiger Woods is a prime example.
Buakao obviously has some great kicking technique and I will say his hands looked pretty good in the fight with Jomhod too. He is still young and at such a high degree of expert skill so he still has alot he may be able to work with in the future. I think for someone to get to that level as him or many other similar fighters you may need to train the same but also start at the same age with the same integrity.
Buakao still keeps me interested and he is exciting to watch.
ercan gürgöze
Posted: 2006-05-18 03:08:19
noi 666,

yes, technic is a process like driving a car...if you learn driving a car as a car driver , then it is very difficult to drive a truck...that!s why buakow cannot be so successful in k-1 series...he is pure muay thai fighter , trained for long years with traditional ring mt methodology, the technics drilled in his brain like a computer...and now he is trying to be successful in a different game k-1 max which is kickboxing (something between modified mt and kb) ...hence, i believe that he has hard times and also will since he had grown with full, traditional mt is not so easy that adapt ...
k-1 is a concept created on the basis of "japanese and dutch kickboxing" and that's why the dutch mostly won the fights ...reason ,very easy, they have been training with a specific own methodology for many years ,got big experience and just fight in a discipline with rules which suits best to their understanding...
i believe that buakow will need still more time for adapting in this concern and he cannot also not successful since he had trained for very very long times with another menthality...his last unsuccessful fight against a pure boxers who don't use his legs can be also agood proof in this concern (he could win the fight , however couldn't ko him...and that is a shame from the perspective of " mt or kb vs quinsbury boxing" ...)

briefly, to convert a pure,original,traditional mt fighter into a kickboxer is not so easy...
Mark L.
Posted: 2006-05-18 09:00:01
I'm not just talking technique...

some of the things he is doing, in my opinion, don't lend to what people are saying makes him a great fighter.

100 kicks in a row is not going to make you more explosive. I don't care how many Thais do it. It will slow you down IMO

One long rnd on pads will slow you down and degrade your techniqu in my opinion too..

When you are young enough you can over train, go over sympathetic, go catabloic and still do well but it catches up. One reason I think Thais have stop fightoing young.

When someone has alot of fast twitch muscle fiber and a extreamly strong nervous system they can do what he is doing and still be explosive.

Endurance-training ideally for your sport or not makes less of a difference to someone that has a strong constitution.

The way he is training is all about slowing him down imo.

Posted: 2006-05-18 09:27:34
so,...what your tell us here mark, is that Buakow the we see perform on K1-MAX and compete around the world is the "weaker, less explosive, less powerful" version of what his potential power COULD be???

DEAR GOD!!!!!!
Hot Sizzle
Posted: 2006-05-18 16:25:23
I actually just done a sport science paper on Thaiboxing and yeah i totally agree with mark. The training looks impressive but he is working all the wrong energy systems and recruiting the wrong muscle fibre types yet he is still amazing. I think he'd have some scientist scratching their head cause he is still lighting fast and his evasion is second to none.

Scientifically going by this training he should be a marathon or long distance runner rather than a rock solid kicking machine.
Posted: 2006-05-18 16:57:18
what training should he be doing then
Mark L.
Posted: 2006-05-18 16:57:52
Hot sizzle its not to have someone think the same! Nice of you to voice your thoughts Hot Sizzle.

Basically he is so well built for fast twitch and using short and intermediate term energy systems that if you trained him for endurance events he probably wouldn't perform well.. I would think

I wonder if there are any studies on ethnic groups and things like fast twitch, slow twitch dominant etc

I personally think this kind of training is one of the things that shortens Thais span in the ring..

muay thaison
Posted: 2006-05-18 17:35:38
all that trainings all well and good but can he do 8 pints after,then get up for a hard days graft following morning. dont think so.
maybe its my english genes and the fact ive done it for years thats give me such discipline.
Hot Sizzle
Posted: 2006-05-18 17:56:10
I think having 300 odd fights in a fearly short time span would most likely have something to do with it as well maybe.
Posted: 2006-05-18 19:07:30
Mark and Hot Sizzle are on to it. I recal a few years back watching Roy Jones prep for his fight against Ruiz, his conditioning coach (name slipped my little mind) was not specialized for boxing at all but brought a whole new Roy Jones to the ring. Sport specific training. Much of the problem fighters face is they tend to use fight specific trainers and many of them are less adaptable for conditioning purposes. Modern sports enhancement is going out of this world and many sports are being left behind, stuck with old school traditional techniques (mind you I believe in old school).

Its an interesting factor when you image what some of the fighters would be like with an added more scientifically adapted plan.
Posted: 2006-05-18 20:31:11
Some great pointers, i beleive alot of Thai Camps are starting to see the error in there ways. Fairtex camp for one have adopted some more westernised and scientific approaches to training fighters, a good example is the ring veteran Kaew Fairtex who trained old school for a very long time but is much stronger now due to his scientific training methods. I think a mixture of old school and new school methods are best. When training for my last fights i introduced alot of sprintwork and canned all the long distance running in the bin, what a difference it made to my fitness when fighting it was much more fight orientated. As long as Buakows 20 minutes are completed in bursts of fast inetrval activity and also a medium workrate i can see him getting the best of both worlds. Although a point to note is that when i watched him being beat in the k-1 max of late i wouldnt say it was because of superior boxing skill but he looked physically tired and his kicks did not have there usual stopping sting to them, when he first came on the K-1 scene he was a ball of lightening and had an abundance of energy, remember the destruction of the dominant masato, K-1 woke up to the sweet sound of hardcore Muay Thai, now they have did everything in there power to be really strict on the Knees etc and in doing so putting Buakow at a disadvantage, let them clinch you spoilsports i used to love buakow flinging them bout the ring like rag dolls, haha
Mark L.
Posted: 2006-05-18 21:30:53
So I'm not alone lol

The thing with western mentality its always more, bigger, harder, more, faster, more.

So to push training its always more... Not 'what will work better'

Also trainers usually come from fighting. They may be great trainers but they don't know much about strength, conditioning, nutrition etc etc etc. Or what they do know came from thier trainer.

What you could could get away with 20 years ago probably isn't the same as today (for more and more people). We are being born weaker. Our genes are weaker. Our expression of them is weaker. Generally... many sporting greats of today I think are lucky (to a degree) or they do things smart.

No Pain no gain WILL kill you. More IS NOT better.

And training needs to be looked at, conditioning wise, from logic, science and experience. Not just my trainer did and his trainer di and his trainers trainer did.

Posted: 2006-05-18 22:41:58
Mark, that was nice mate.

I agree with how the generations are getting weaker and weaker. I know I was never as hard as my grandfather was growing up and I thrive to make sure my children are raised without as much weakness of modern society as I can. So I guess its not just a sport thing but a civilization thing. I love old school for the real guts and grit involved but education and modern styling has proven alot of what I was initially to believe, incorrect. For me its a learning experiance and a justified one with sports conditioning. As time slowly goes on fighters will adapt, either that or they will be left behind. Coaches will become like the suits screaming and yelling down the basket ball courts. The use of specialists will become more and more in areas that have so far been the role of a sole coach. If Thai boxing grows how we all hope it does in popularity it will grow in all other areas also.

Anyway back to Buakao, DJ Lex, I also recall Buakao's first shows in the K1Max and it was great for that time. It was a chance for me to look at the blokes and say "see, told you fools" haha. I actually followed him from a few fights at Siam Omnoi, Isuzu cup and into KOMA. He had something that needed to be displayed internationally and something that has really promoted the sport. Thai boxing is young in many countries but more and more interest has been set upon K1. With Buakao sporting a Thai style, background and ethnicity it has promoted the sport well. I was recently informed that Yodsanklai Fairtex is also fighting on a super fight at the next K1 Max GP (against Kamal el Amarni of SL???). Again Buakao is in the mix (against Sato first) but having Yodsanklai in the same event on the same night will add hopefully more interest into Thai boxing. Sure the shows are K1 but people generally want to see what creates these fighters and the young fellas want to be like these fellas, so all in all more promotion for Thai boxing.
Posted: 2006-05-19 00:15:07
but the more you do something the faster you become, and the longer you can keep at that certain thing
Posted: 2006-05-19 03:52:26
Yeah, I hear you there brother but like drinking a beer with your mates, you need to know when to stop, take a break (time off) and carry on later. Does that make sence? Constantly doing the same thing does make technique second nature and speed things up along the way but can also have a reverse effect if prolonged too much. For the thought on being able to follow with multiple kicks during a fight I agree totally. Many gyms dont let students leave without doing a minimum of 100 kicks and 100 knees after training each night. Physical conditioning goes alot further than practical and often the obvious is only second best most of the time. From what I am awear of most of Buakao's training has been practical (maybe with added work now). Incorperating specific power enhancing movements for the torso, glutes and hips could add to the power of a kick in a month what may take longer on the pads. Speed can be brought into with quad, hip flexor and even calf work and again at awesome results with minimum time and effort. Age old argument that many people feel opposed too but this is my perception and general thoughts and by no means am I stating my word is bond. I am a strong supporter of old school, hard work. But I also understand that sometimes stepping onto a different path for a while before stepping back helps.
One thing I do like about Buakao was his growing, did you guys see the blows he was throwing at Jomhod, he was trying to serve up some ribs and did a beauty job.
ercan gürgöze
Posted: 2006-05-19 06:02:43
mark l,

yes correct training like a machine would never bring you in correct way...

and i can also image how many thais could have been overtrained in the history with very hard,long training routines...thanks to the high number of fighters in thailand so that still the best could be found...
however,it seems today that there are also some of camps in thailand who are aware from the scientific training methodology and health and adopt their routines accordingly...

however, what is strange to me is that there are many westeners training 2 times per day each at least 2 hours...everyday running, weight lifting etc etc...and the general appereance of those fighters say that they are "average fighters" ...
why so much training?...

by the way, we have also done such mistakes in the past like "no pain, no gain"...

i think for a qualified fighter an intensive training of 1.5 -2 hours x 4 days would be good for staying ok, and then with a 1.5 months prefight notification ,another 2 days of 2 hours per week cross training would make the fighter ready for any fight...however,it should not be exactly like the traditional long, relaxed thai way ( 2 x 3-4 hours / day) may be something between with the "intensive way" of the dutch...the belarus,russian trainers are very lucky in this concern since they have seen both thai and dutch way of training so that they make the arrangements accordingly...
Mark L.
Posted: 2006-05-19 09:50:39
The more you do something the faster you become. ? I don't follow the logic there. If you train to be slow I don't see how you get faster.

The more you do RIGHT and with speed. Body does learn by doing. If you do 200 kicks all out I bet big dollars that your last 100 are slower than your first 100... body remembers best what it finnishes with.

I would also say the Thais are healthier to start and express a closer max to thier genes than most westerners. The food there is generally beter quality (no all your boxed crap in the west isn't food). So they can get away more, and longer with doing things. There is also a larger pool to pick from and they don't have the western attitude that anyone can do anyone. If they suck at fighting, they don't fight. So you get the ones that are good.

Some Thai camps maybe be changing things-I don't know of many details that way. But I would suspect its quite behind. Top cutting edge training takes years to come about in the west. Pro football teams in US-many train in rediculous ways.

How much logic does it take-meeting the night before a game at 9PM with fried chicken wings.. come on... come on...

The thing is some people get away with it and those are the ones that last...for awhile. Often starting to get injured more and more. Often loosing a love for the game. Often taking thier health down hill.

How many 'old timers' can't train? Its cause you get old... Is it??

I know age plays a factor but..

The US football players that last more than a couple seasons take care of themselves..
Posted: 2006-05-19 14:58:09
I am loving this topic

ercan, a simple answer is in numbers mate. There are more Thai practitioners training hard world wide than non Thai. For many of them their lives revolve around training and fighting. Many of us think life revolves around the sport but really that is not the truth as their are so many complications in our lifestyles. Back to the concept...
Consider the variation of conventional boxers. Over the past decade the level has been popping up fast and this is due to scientific (logical science) and the application of human performance. The Thai's have the best fighters while some of the farang have been holding their own in the ring and sometimes winning, with less than half the experiance. Thai's are starting to look at enhancement methodology in regards to Thaiboxing slowly now too. All in all I feel that the next generation of fighters may well be elite in comparison to the past. Humans are getting better at everything we do, wether knowledge academically or physically. For Thai boxing it is just a matter of time.
Posted: 2006-05-19 17:09:14
yes i know that, my dad was talking to me about it the other day, you need to set a certain time off training, other wise you go up up up getting better and better then you star to get worse and worse
Posted: 2006-05-19 17:19:13
Mark L. yes his last 100 may not have as much energy as his first 100, but his stamina builds get an average person star them with doing 200 kicks a day all at the same time every day for a year and by the end of the year you would notice he can put more energy into more kicks than he could at the start of the year
Mark L.
Posted: 2006-05-19 22:07:24
I think there is more to it than that though.. I'm not saying it can't work for something. But is it the best way? How long will it last? 200 kicks gonna train the body to use more slow twitch than fast fact switching some mucles fibers to more slow twitch. (I know there is more than slow and fast but i don't think that detail is needed).

Sting-getting better. I agree in many ways and also disagree. As humans, as a race I think we are getting much much weaker. Look at ALL the increases in degenerative disease. injuries. ACL injuries-if we had that many 1000 years ago we'd be just about extinct!!!!! Many don't think disease has anything to do with health. NO opinion here. You're just plain wrong (IMO:P). But I do think we are getting more and more knowlage (much is coming from things done along time ago). The average person has tendons made of cooked spagetti and muscles made of jello.

Fewer and fewer CAN be athletes. Fewer and fewer have a strong enough expression of thier genes to do anything great. I think 1000 years ago with todays training and knowlage etc would kick our asses BIG time! Or at least the average person would be MUCH MUCH stronger, healthier etc etc than the average now.

Price taught natives med surgery and was amazed at thier skill and ability. Being healthy means a better functioning EVERYTHING! Brain, immune system, hormonal system, reproductive system, digestive system, elimination system etc etc etc

I htink fighters are better least the ones that go somewhere. But I think yesteryear more could have gone somewhere.

Do people think we grow with building blocks stored in our genes??? We can only express them and grow by what we put into the body.

Some people are made of coke and fries LITTERALLY!!! nasty (bet you money they have parasites too..have sex with someone with yeast issues...guess what get some issues of your own.

I think the Thais are in general healthier and therefor closer to thier genetic potential.

Farung-some train smart..

I think the individual needs to look at smart training, health (being many things) and good skill/technique.

I suspect Buakow to have alot of tallent, developed great skills, being healthy and a good expression of strong genes to start. But training that way, besides cutting back on performance, I htink, is likely to degrade his health and one way or another shorten his fighting life or his life as we know it.

Posted: 2006-05-20 01:26:22
Mark L. we may be getter weaker but we are living longer, if your are talking weak as in physical strenght it doesn't matter with our tehnology, and if you look at the work people did 1000 years ago they lifted rocks and other heavy shit thats why they were stronger, we push a button and the jobs done, we don't do as much physical labour.

And basically yes we are what we eat, look at the asians yes there are fat/unhealthy ones but they eat all our western food but the ones that eat traditional food are healthy, and live longer, also they do tai chi etc.

But if people were smarter and ate the right food and exercised even a little bit a day we would be stronger and healthier. most westerners don't see the importance in exercise that's why most are obease and fat.
Posted: 2006-05-20 03:11:36
Not all bodies are the same, there are racial and individual differences in each persons body make-up. To suggest that one training routine works for everyone is the same as suggesting one eating plan works for everyone. It doesnt.Buakaws training routine is working for him so far, mabey his training is addressing his natural weaknesses rather than focusing on his strengths, or mabey it has not been well thought out and another method could do better. If your naturally strong your training would focus on improving your speed, if your naturally fast your training would focus on improving your strength. Most freaky fantastic athletes have some serious genetic advantages and more often than not their bodies dont fit the expected mould that your average persons does. If he is a naturally outstanding athlete chances are his routine is not going to work for anyone but him because he has a fairly unique physiology, and by the same token what works for most people may have a negative impact upon him. Black sprinters take an entirely different approach to training than white sprinters because the physiology and natural strengths tend to be different. Has anyone asked him why he trains the way he does? There may well be a valid reason for his particular training method, it may work psychologically for him by mentally toughening him to endure when he is wearing down or it may just work physically for his system by working his weaknesses or his body may just respond differently to what is expected. It is a bit closed minded to assume there is a problem with his training regimen just because it wouldnt work well for the majority. Mabey his routine could be improved but by the same token it may already be the best method for him.
Posted: 2006-05-20 07:39:10
Yo guys as a testament to clean living and the benefits of that to the longevity and well being of the body i have 2 very famous individuals who spring to mind

A) Helio Gracie, who is well into his 80's i believe and has stayed away from all crap and proclaims to have never eaten anything that wasnt good for him and is still able to get on the mat and have a good roll around.
B) Apideh Sit Hurin "the living legend" with over 300+ muay thai fights, and proclaimed kicker of the century. Who must be 70 at least and can hold the pads for anybody and is still nimble on his feet.

I have yet to meet one of these Muay Thai boxers that everybody talks about who are burned out and can no longer walk etc in there old age, everyone that i have seen tend to have benefited long term from there dedication to the purity of a Thai boxer in respect of Food, Training, resting and general healthy living. And the way Buakow is going i beleive that he will be one of these people who will age slowly and be healthy later in life even after his demanding regime. If you thought buakows regime was hard, Apideh did 20 minutes of jumpups to strengthen the legs for his kicks, 20 minutes of jumping up with your knees coming up, now thats "old" school. !!!!!!

Mark L.
Posted: 2006-05-20 09:24:19
marboro-not everyone should train the same by any means. Howver the sport one is in would put some guidelines on training. Running 100miles to train for a 100meter sprint is rediculous even if the athlete fatigues and slows in last 50meters.

Some specifics from the demands of the sport will effect the areas of which one wants to train. Certainly everyone has different strengths and weaknesses to be addressed.

"working for him" -some people are so gifted in some areas that you can train them wrong and they'll be ok.. doesn't mean its the way to train 'em.

Genetics (more so expression of) IS huge. But no matter what your genes running 100 miles does not prepare you for a 100meter sprint.

Not saying everyone should train the same but there are ways to and areas that will help for ones sport and ways that won't. Choosing within those.

Everyone has didfferent nutritional needs. Doesn't mean anyone needs 1lbs of sugar a day.

DJ_lex- Very good point.

Its not how much you can train but what you can recover from. Health IS huge!!!! Its not so easy to say if one is over training or not with out look at thier recovery, body systems function etc etc

Buakow may not be over training at all.. However a majority of people doing that as a program would be.

I do think that over training is a factor on the Thais finnishing at a relatively young age. Not many fighters past 25. Not that many at 25 actually... i think that says something.
Posted: 2006-05-21 09:48:19

Por Pramuk gym
Posted: 2006-05-21 22:40:46
Wow, great discussion guys! I did'nt expect to get this much responses. I especially like the posts by Mark L. and Marlboro. Others are great too though! :)

You've been talking about training for speed, or training yourself to be slow by doing 200 kicks in a row etc. You say the second 100 will be slower than the first and I agree. But, how would one build on this to make all 200 be fast and powerful? Obviously the latter ones will naturally be less powerful, but a person could surely work at it so that they are more powerful than they would be if they had'nt done any kick training at all right? Also, if I do say, 20 kicks at full speed, my body will remember "fast" instead of slow. But, how will I be able to sustain these kicks throughout a long fight throwing say 15-20 kicks a round, if I have'nt trained for the kick endurance, and only trained for speed? There must be a middle ground where you can train for speed and fast twitch, and endurance right?

What about this. Doing a roundhouse on the bag at full speed, then giving yourself enough time to recover to do the rest at full speed, until you reach your 100 or 200 each leg? Would something like that achieve both speed and fast twitch muscle training, along with endurance and stamina?

You also mentioned about the long runs they do. It may be training them to be slow, but how else can you put consistent strain on your body and legs so that you get used to all the strain during a long fight? Best way is to probably mix both sprints, and longer runs, maybe in an interval way?
Posted: 2006-05-21 23:34:51
running works on stamina and breathing, it wont train you to be slow at all
Mark L.
Posted: 2006-05-22 00:21:02
Your ideas for kicking are on the right track I think.

Why not apply the same logic to running?

Look at the demands of the sport. You said 15-20 kicks a round. How does throwing 200 in a row prepare the body for that?

Take that logic and train a sprinter that way. See how many races he wins.

100meters is damn tiring-better run 20 miles... It won't work.

It gets tricky (and I'm just learning about how to put it all together) but all the energy systems over lap. Just like running, sprinting etc over laps the use of different muscle fibers. Also the ATP etc in different muscles gets used when you use them (that would say to me a fighter who can mix up his weapons should have more energy than if he primarily used one). Then with all the short break.. punch punch kick.....kick....block kick.... the recovery isn't as simple as talking about running etc

However if you look at the demands of the sport and mimic them I believe you will get way better results.

Pad work for the time of the fight rnd with fight breaks for training (if you do it as a work out-though still keeping form) IMO will develop your conditioning for a fight much better than running 20miles.

Also the need to run every day is rediculous and very catabolic(means break down!!). Its not what you can do its what you can recover from.

You want top strength gains in your squat you sure as hell don't squat every day.

Answer me this. Those who have run every day (more than once a day too)-what kind of gains have you found? And how have you found the changes in the fighting? This might be hard to seperate cause most people putting the time in running are training seriously (where I think you'll get more conditioning relevant to the sport).

Running every day, sit-ups every day, push ups every day is rediculous IF you want gains, be they strength, performance, power, speed or conditioning.

Lets say you did what you could, keeping form and speed. Getting enough recovery to always make improvements, be they form, speed, intensity or quantity. You keep going up...keeping form and speed and intensity. Where could you end up?

How many people run your ass off and still tire in a fight and so you run more???

I know some of you experience this.

Or how many train and train and train and don't get anywhere?? Could this be a factor? Those with a stronger expression of thier genes may be able to get away with it longer and may say it works for me but doesn't mean its ideal or that it won't kill many even faster.

Injuries ARE related to over training. To being over catabolic. Over training may make you fit short term but you will get sick or injured or burn out or get diseased sooner or later..more and more.


Read that. If I throw 20 kicks fast and body remembers how will I throw 15-20 a rnd... why not?

Do we throw that many kicks straight in a fight?50 straight even? No

I think good pad work is a huge part of conditioning.

After a base intensity is build then I think intensity must be maintained and quantity slowly built.

3 2 min rnds of high intensity is a better building block than 5 x 4minrnds with medium-low intensity.

Train intensly and build untill you can do what you want for the time frame you need it for.

I don't want to throwweak slow kicks all night. I want to throw strong, powerful kicks, we speed, form and timing.

Give me a list of what you think makes great fighters and things like speed, power, timing, intensity will be high on a list, no?

I htink training these things and training them right will give you what you need in other areas.

"It is hard for the body to learn skillful movement when fatigued" -Gray Cook

Not what I was looking for but here is one along the lines dicussed
By the way this guy is genius

"Developing endurance is not just about aerobic conditioning. Anaerobic conditioning is fundimental to most sports. IUt's important for athletes to develop the ability to recover from quick bursts of explosive activity. Endurance for sports is not about how long you can maintain a steady state of activity; it is the capacity to explode, react, recover, and maintain skill no matter what you're up against." -Gray Cook Athletic Body In Balance

I was looking for a quote where he talks about training these things will give you all the endurance (not aerobic conditioning-that doesn't help much) you need.

"...its easy to make a sprinter into an endurance athlete, but this is generally not a desirable result." -Michael Boyle Functional Training for Sports he also talks about its harder to go the other way around. Training endurance (longer than demands of your sport) will take away from your performance.

I think it was this book with the quote I was looking for ...

ah yes.. p9 has a good paragraph... a little long...

talking about the key is analizing the qualities in a sport or athlete that make a great performer. Not working on what he doesn't do well.. "For years coaches have been trying to improve aerobic capacity in explosive athletes. The end result seems to be an athlete with a higher oxygen uptake but no real change in performance. Training programs designed in this way improve the athletes ability at a sustained pace in sports that do not require a sustained pace."

goes on to talk about defenders of this belief saying 'soccer players run five miles and tennis matches last 2 hrs' etc "The questionm is at what speed and in what time period? A tennis match may take two hours to play but what is the ratio of sprinting and standing? Are the players in constant motion? The advocates of aerobic training never point to this training as a way of improving performance, only as a way of improving recovery. The goal is to improve performance."

"The key to improving sports performance lies in improving the ability to produce speed and power. Endurance should be an after thought. We tell our athletes over and over that it takes years to get fast and powerful and weeks to get in aerobic shape." Michael Boyle Functional training For Sports

With that in mind think of Poliquin (with all his amazing results with athletes). 6 weeks out of a year for aerobic gains..

How many of you not training can get into fight shape in weeks-couple months? How much do you improve when you train months on end (conditioning wise?)?

past my bed time-night :)

how many of you guys think I'm an ass? lol

Posted: 2006-05-22 01:23:17
i find your thoughts wrong, sit-ups generate a good core and every good athlete has a good solid core, and running everyday produces stamina and IT HELPS YOUR BREATHING, taking huge breaths when your tired takes away more energy so breathing is a big part of muay thai, kickboxing, boxing martial arts etc.

and if it is so wrong get into a fight with a thai who does all these thing you seem to disagree with and your going to get your smashed into the ground so obviously something is working for them isn't it. See and they don't get tired easily and thats because they do lots of running.

And you talk about doing things slow will program you mind to do it slow, WRONG
look at tai chi, they do slow movements but you body learns how to do it, so get into a fight with someone who does tai chi and they like the thai will smash you to the ground, tai chi isn't just for looking pritty it is a martial art.

FOR example if you play ps2 etc you put cheats in at first you put them in slow but once you get into the habbit you can put them in quickly.

if anyone disagrees with me please tell me what you disagree with
ercan gürgöze
Posted: 2006-05-22 01:55:52


-the thai fight environment is very huge so that the sample random range is very big...there are many many fotential fighters and you choose the best from them...
-they only train from youth according to the needs of the game exactly...long time training in technics cause advantage...the proof is that they cannot be successful if any of their rules would be changed , for example not so successful in kb...
-the frequent fights; this is also important since they got enough experience...the westeners only trying to close this gap with sparring which is not sufficient...
-if only situps and running would gain so much advantage ,then the westeners could also very successful sinc most of them run more than thais or trying to benefit from weight lifting and machinary tools...
-thai chi may be a health training system, but cannot be a proof for actual fight...if this would be so ,than the free fighters would begin to train thai chi instead of mt and jujutsu&wrestling...
Posted: 2006-05-22 02:43:45
TAI chi is one of the many options you can't do them all at once, it is a type of martial art and people have their opionions on the better one
Posted: 2006-05-22 03:01:25
The Mandarin term "T'ai Chi Ch'üan" translates as "Supreme Ultimate Boxing" or "Boundless Fist". T'ai Chi training involves learning solo routines, known as forms, and two person routines, known as pushing hands, as well as acupressure-related manipulations taught by traditional schools.

why would it translate to that if it isn't a martial art?

anyway the chinese were fucking smart and they managed to pack alot of things into tai chi and it includes self defense etc.

anyway my dad should b txting me back soon to put this matter to rest as he teaches tai chi full time.

and of course you would do karate etc over tai chi if you are a free fighter, but tai chi is also a martial art.
ercan gürgöze
Posted: 2006-05-22 05:24:25
i didn't say that has no fighting far as i know the so said section "complex tai chi" is to be considered also as a fighting discipline...and i remember also ,during 1980's (?may be 1981?..) i met an old chinese tai chi practioner, he was over 60 ,and we did something sparring in the salon (not in the ring) and it has surprised me when i cannot catch him with any attack in the open field ...however, he couldn't do also something against me...the escape ways ,foot moves were very speedy , however,if there would be a ring or a restricted area ,then things are changable...
however, i think that it can be just a good health system for every age of people, not the effective way among full contact disciplines...

Posted: 2006-05-22 05:50:15
Aerobic work like running improves your heart rate and breathing. You may not rely on aerobic breathing in a MT fight but your heart rate does matter. A heart that doesnt suddenly start beating at 160BPM 30 seconds into the round is going to work to any athletes advantage. My preference is for interval sprints over a long distance, while this works explosive power for the sprints it is still running and still aerobic to some degree. Learning to walk doesnt suddenly mean I can no longer crawl, the body is capable of performing at different levels and responding to different tasks. I dont believe that running would make you a worse fighter, given unless sprints are included it will not improve your anerobic capacity but the body doesnt function in exclusive systems and is capable of both anerobic and aerobic tasks. Tai Chi is a martial art, and its movements can be used in self defence. Everyone starts out training slow as they learn new movements, there would be no point in just thrashing away and paying no attention to correct form. Perfect practice makes perfect, shoddy practice makes for shoddy technique, your body remembers how you train and learns to repeat the same form, eventually no matter what speed you execute it. If Buakaw had a great base for his kicks with time his body would automaticly execute the kick well each time, but we are not talking about someone who has been training for 6months doing 200 kicks we are talking about someone who has probably been training since he was a very young child. Im not a fan of sit-ups myself and not realy sure they are that great for the core, I know people who do endless sit-ups and still have a weak stomach, I think the thais get their core from kicking and their balance work and sit-ups may be a waste of time. I think the advantage the Thais have over Farung fighters is more psychological than related to any particular training technique. There is less agression to their fighting and more patience in the way they fight and more emphasis on total body fitness and making sure the basics dont let you down. Thai fighters seem to wait for their moment rather than let rip with agression, they spend ages on stretching and weights and cardio- neglecting no area of fitness, and their core muscles are an obsession of theirs. Alot of Farungs just want to get down to sparring or fighting and spend less time on the techniques and want to execute their moves rather than waiting for the ideal moment. Im definitely generalising because some Farung show all these traits but they are the ones who fight like thais and more often than not have trained there, and some thais are agro and impatient but they never last long in the thai fight environmrent. I like tai chi and BJJ they are great for instilling the patience and the precision that can make you a better fighter. And I would love to be able to do 200 kicks in a row but would probably pass out if I tried, to see a fighter rapid fire multiple kicks is fantastic and it definitely puts the opponant in the defensive rather than the attack if its fast enough. If I had any idea that Buakaws routine would work for me I'de give it a try but I suspect it would just cripple me. Just like training like Tiger Woods wont make me any threat to him on the golf course.
Mark L.
Posted: 2006-05-22 09:00:58
Leviathan-there are threads discussing core and sit-ups etc

The breathing thing...well our bodies have different energy systems. Lifting 2 rep max of a power snatch will get you breathing but it is not an aerobic exercise.

Tai chi-I don't know alot about the hard form. The soft form is about cultivating chi and moving itr around your body. I think the hard form is about directing it etc chi is cool stuff!!!

Something like Tai Chi and slow movement.. You are not doing performance training here. That makes a huge difference. I'm not sayin moving slow trains the body to move slow in a fight. I'm saying training fast and for performance going all out (but slow due to fatigue etc) trains the body to move slowly.

The body also remem bers the last rep. In weights my intensity is always -1 or -2. Meaning I stop when I think I can do only 1 more or 2 more with perfect form.

Loosing form means you are recruiting the muscles differently and TRAINING them to be recruited that way. There for training for bad form-the body learns by doing..
Mark L.
Posted: 2006-05-22 09:18:28
Thais and core

First off thier life style and diet give them a better functioning core than us in my opinion. It takes longer at crap exercises, like sit-ups, to take it away.

I'll get to the food link in a minuit.

They use thier core in how they stand and in everything they do (I think they over use the internal obliques maybe (not sure) but they certyainly creat internal pressure. It would be interesting to look at thier breathing etc as the diaphram is a big part of core function (nad health!)

Food and core.

Some foods will turn your core off. Think I'm on crack? lol

In a heart attack, where do you feel it?? Not in the heart huh? How come?

What happens is where the heart is attatched to the spine that spinal segment also has attatchments for the shoulder etc. The whole spine is like this. The visera, muscles, skin etc etc all attatch or are connected I should say.

So when the heart has a prob (heart attack) it sends a signal to that spinal segment and that sends it up to the brain. The brain sends a signal back saying act like your in pain or having a heart attack but when the signal goes back to the spinal segment it gets sent out to all the connections at that level.

So when you eat crap foods or foods that are not right for you (your metabolic type, food sensitivities, allergies, 'non-foods', 'displacement foods'(read garbage and junk, etc it creates a problems with the digestive system. e.g. the small intestines send the signal to the spine-to the brain-bakc to the spine and the abdominals shut off.

Many people do sit-ups forever. 100s a day and still have distended bellys (well sit-ups do stick it out more than draw it in but..). They don't get the training response they want.

Thais eat real food much more. They don't eat garbage shakes and prrtein bars, energy drinks(very often). They don't eat boxed, processed crap. Therefor they are uch more likely to have proper functioning abdominal musculature.
Mark L.
Posted: 2006-05-22 09:23:54
Viseral health and strength were written about in the late 1800s!!!!!!

Eugen Sandow wrote a few books that I would love to get copies of. In 1889 he performed a 300lbs single arm press!!!!!

He states over and over in his books that viseral health is a must for optimal strength.

-Live With Paul Chek The Series, Functional Exercise rom The Inside Out
in it refferencing -Webster, D. (1976). The Iron Game; an illustrated history of weight lifting also refferencing Sandows books.
Mark L.
Posted: 2006-05-22 09:25:45
the wrong foods for your metabolic type or garbage foods or foods of which you have food sensitivities/allergies etc to will effect health and performance, period!!!!

The Thais mostly eat real least by comparison to most of us in the west
Dave Jackson
Posted: 2006-05-22 15:41:12
I have never asked my fighters to run (unless they needed to lose weight)

Apart from the odd novice I dont think anyone could say my guys go into the ring unfit.

I just dont see the point of it and I have actually told lads recently to stop running so much.

I do like them to do sprint work but again that is secondary to pad work and clinch work.
ercan gürgöze
Posted: 2006-05-22 16:16:05
by even training with a 1.5 hours intensive training you do also some "aerobic exercise" ,and this will be also sufficient...

the main thing why thais do not get tired lies under the fact i.e. they know also how to breath, how to slow down and speed up correctly the west people mostly attack to the hell and making pressure ,if they find the opportunity and forget mostly correct breathing...contraversary,as far as i see the thais know much better when to breath...teeps (push kick) are playing a big role in this concern...when they "teep" they also breath deeply...and also i have seen that some fighters are making breathing exercises during or at the end of training...
by the way, the high number of their fights also presenting them orgaanize how to berath and make the best optimization of energy systems...they are getting big experience due to frequent,high number of fights...
Posted: 2006-05-22 16:16:36
just eating the right food won't give you a good core, you need to work at it.

and are you people blind, running is good for you, the thais wouldn't run so much unless it had value, other wise they would put that time to something more usefull. running gives you stamina, which is fucking important, a run alomst everyday and it helps
Mark L.
Posted: 2006-05-22 16:49:31
leviathan-actually most of what I was taught and believed from the beggining I see as the oposite now.

Dave has had a few fighters I believe and like he says they don't run much and do have gas.

If some can fight without running (or limited and when running using sprints) isn't that enough to make you go hhmmmm

By the way I didn't mean that eating good food gives you a good core. I do mean eating bad foods (or wrong for you) can turn off muscles of the core.

Believe me every exercise I do has a core component to a lesser or larger degree. I work on core alot. Movement initiates from the core.

Working the 6pack in a short range of motion (thus shortening it) actually teaches the core NOT to work (if over done-certainly if base for core conditioning).

You'll limit your breathing(how important is that? #1), change your musculoskeletol structure... start to limit cerebrospinal fluid pumping etc all this adds stress and too much stress means hormonal issues it goes on and on and on.

Levianthan-where is your info based? What you were taught? What we are taught is what someone else believes. I suggest doing research in any area you are interested in and testing some of the theories you hold as true.

Daves isn't the only gym that doesn't run either..

running ontop of everything else is another sympathetic (catabolic) stimulating stress. There may be a time and place but many people will be stressed out the ying yang and that WILL lead to many negative health issues.
Mark L.
Posted: 2006-05-22 16:52:26
If you burn, get gas, are constipated, have loose stoole, fart, get bloated etc etc then very likely your core has limite function (assuming your body knows how to recruit it).

All these are often mostly to do with what you eat, when you eat, how much and how fast you eat and how stressed you are.

No the right foods won't create a strong core but they will allow it to have an oppertunity to work and build its components from better materials (muscles etc)
Posted: 2006-05-22 17:17:19
I am basing my info on basic knowledge and things my dad has taught me as he is a cyclist but reads up on these matters. He thinks your an idiot for thinking running won't help you in kbxng. Like i said earlier why do thai's do it? why does any sports person do it?? and where do you get your info? Running doesn't cause stress, if u mean men stress on your muscles etc, that means you are working them, and its not stress your "feeling the burn"
Mark L.
Posted: 2006-05-22 20:07:18

I never said running wasn't good or wouldn't help. I'm questioning what is the best way and suggesting that distance running and too frequently can easily become excessive.

Balance of stress depends on all the other stressors. The good ones and the bad (good can always turn bad if not balanced).

I also think running isn't the number one option idealy. However I DO run. But only cause my options are limited and I DON'T do distance.

If I'm not mistaken Jitti's in Thailand doesn't run.

Dave above has been around and his fighters are good to go energy wise, right Dave?

So, if thats true... doesn't it make you wonder?

What prepares your body for kicking best? Running or kicking?

When you jog 5 miles or sprint 10sec. Which feels more like a quick series of kicks?

How come a marathon runner can't do two rnds without getting pooped?

Can someone who can do 5 rnds strong run a marathon?

There are different energy systems. Training one doesn't mean you can perform in another.

My info (my interpretation-not saying its what these guys say)

Charles Poliquin
Paul Chek
Michael Boyle
Gray Cook
I would bet Jerry Telle and Kim Goss are on the same page too

Do a little research on who these guys have trained.

Poliquin had a hard time getting the Canadian womens speed skating team off running (the ego holds beliefs tight)... after he did..they kicked some ass.

How many record holders has he trained?

I've looked into this for a few years now. Consulted with quite a few trainers. My current strength/conditioning coach works with some of Canadas Olympic athletes etc Talked with a great coach from New Zealand at a course..

I study with the CHEK Inst and read alot myself.

But with Dave saying his fighters have energy and don't run.. isn't that enough to start looking deeper?

I would think some of what I said is enough to start questioning. Seeing if I'm on crack or maybe onto somehting.

I mean some has been explained and some of those quotes are from top guys in the field.
Mark L.
Posted: 2006-05-22 20:17:56
I think Buakow is very gifted. I think his genes are strong and his expression of is strong.

I think you could train him many different ways and still have this fighter that does very well.

But I don't think that means its the best method. Or that that method will work with others who maybe have a weaker nervous system and expression of thier genes.

Some guys are all slow twitch and will never be fast no matter how you train them. Train them right and they will speed up but they are all slow. There are people that are naturally very quick and training them slow won't seem to make much difference.

Now Buakows training will have aspects that will support his natural ability and supports speed etc but from what I read and as a whole I think there are aspects that would not be desireable for optimum performance...much more noticed when you aren't as genetically gifted.

Thais run cause there trainer (or dad) told them to. Thier trainer did cause they were told to...

Its like footbal in US. There is such a pool to choose from that you get many great athletes. But some who wouldn't quite make it on one training program could on a better one...

The Thais who can't fight or are slow etc don't fight, period.

So basically all the fighters are probably going to be able to adapt to the training program and perform none the less.


Posted: 2006-05-22 23:26:14
About the running, it may not be the best thing in terms of fitness needed for Muay Thai, but I was wondering about the effect on the legs in terms of building muscle and strengthening other parts of the legs to withstand the punishment they take.

Alot of ppl say the Thais overtrain or train wrong, however when you see them fight non-Thais it's usually the non-Thais who tire first.

I think nervous energy plays a large part. Alot of very fit people can tire after fighting on 2 rounds.

Thais don't seem to have a problem with nerves, I think it's a combination of experience and their relaxed attitude to life.

Would be interested in others thoughts.
Posted: 2006-05-22 23:44:09
So are you basicaly saying that when you train for speed and fast twitch, but you're already fatigued, then that is when you are actually training your body to be slow?

Along with Buakaw, I have another athlete I was looking at, and I think you would be surprised at the way he trains also. I am talking about Pro boxer Floyd Mayweather Jr. He is the fastes, most skilled boxer I have ever seen. His speed is unreal. Not only in his hands, but you can tell he's built with fast twitch all over. On a recent boxing event he was on, the announcer said that he trains 20-30 minutes shadow boxing to warm up, does 10-15 minute sparring rounds with multiple partners rotating in with barely any rest in between rounds, then does long bag work, mitts, rope, exrecises, etc. For sure this looks like it's excessive and would be training him to be slow according to what you mentioned earlier. But some how he has more speed and explosiveness then most his opponents can deal with. Surely this can't be all genetic? After years of this kind of training, you would think he'd be burnt out and worn out?

Maybe the best way (or a good way) is to train both speed/fast twitch/explosivness along with endurance and aerobic training? That way you're training to be fast, explosive, but yet have the endurance to last all the rounds, have good breathing, and your body is used to the strain from being hit, moving round to round etc? Now here's a question, would it be better to do endurance and speed on the same day? Or better to do them on their own times?

I also think the long runs, excessive bad rounds, long sparrings etc. could be purely mental to a lot of fighters, like someone mentioned earlier. Maybe knowing that they are capable of lasting as long as it takes to win makes a huge impact on them mentally? Maybe it all comes down to what they believe is/is'nt working for them? For example, if Buakaw was presented with this new high tech way of training that is totally different from what he's been taught and is used to, but he did'nt believe in it, it would'nt work at all? But if he believes what he is doing works and is making him the best, then he is able to put more effort and passion into it so he get's the absolute most out of it.

Also one more thing about the kicking. I know I said 10-15 kicks a round, and you said then why do 200? Maybe it's mental again, and being able to throw hundreds more than you'll need is a big advantage. I would be glad that in the end rounds i could atleast throw kicks because my body was used to it, even though they're not full speed or power, rather than train only 20 kicks at a time full speed, and not be able to throw a single one when I'm tired because that's how I trained my body to be.

I'm not trying to attack anyone on their views or beliefs, but just wanted to raise more questions to keep the discussion going. We're all going to be more educated after this, and probably end up getting better than we though we all could. :)

Discuss on boys!!!
Posted: 2006-05-22 23:48:18
I was thinking the same thing about the running. It may not be the best thing for explosivness or speed unless you do intervals with sprint work. But it has benefits like breathing, and being able to breathe and recover under pressure. But I think the biggest advantage to the longer distance running is having your body be able to opperate and recover and keep going under constant strain and pressure like in a fight.
Posted: 2006-05-22 23:51:51
Also, someone said earlier that doing just pad work for the number of rounds x rest periods will get you in shape enough for the fight, and that thais overtrain. But maybe their belief is to take it beyond whatever the fight is set for, so there is never a question of if the fighter has enough gas in the tank.
Posted: 2006-05-22 23:52:40
Also, someone said earlier that doing just pad work for the number of rounds x rest periods will get you in shape enough for the fight, and that thais overtrain. But maybe their belief is to take it beyond whatever the fight is set for, so there is never a question of if the fighter has enough gas in the tank.
Posted: 2006-05-23 01:27:31
xnfx.. i see what youre saying about the running helping more if its done in sprints (fartlek) etc but i find longer distance the best way to get my weight down , so i guess were all different and just have to adapt our training to suit , i know plenty of people who don't run just simply hammer their pad work ..... it'd be boring if we were all the same
Posted: 2006-05-23 02:04:12
this is the difference between sports specific training and training for a reason.

putting in the miles will help lose weight (reason), It will help you make the weigh-in though!....but it wont necessarily help you in the fight itself (sports specific).

its all about find the optimum balance...
Posted: 2006-05-23 03:03:57
I agre with noi666
xnfx, you started a great discussion mate.

Just to add some more in regards to your most recent posts.
Running and sprinting is a fine example and one that I often use when working with athletes or my most recently endevor, a team within the fire service. The demands of fire crew may well not be the same as a pro fighter but its alot more common than many people think.

In regards to specific training. Mayweather is a fantastic candidate. Mayweather has speed. Something he has utilised since his amateur days in lighter divisions. He has grown in weight but kept the speed he had, infact he seems to have increased it over time.

Going back to sprinting and distance running. Look at the athletes. In general the long distance runners are slight in muscular definition and raw power however their muscular endurance is alot stronger. A sprinter is another species all together. Built for power and shaped like a body builder (only real).

A 100 meter sprinter would usually rely on ATP (adenosine triphosphate). This is the source of muscular contractions like when you lift something heavy. As a fighter its used in sudden bursts with punches but when kicking its a full contraction. A long distance runner relys more on endurance depending on distance and running pace. Starting with part lactic and part aerobic "Oxygen for fuel" and as time goes on it turns to mainly oxygen. You will know the feeling of breathing heavier and sweating, they are the results of oxygen use as fuel.

For a fighter its great to be able to kick hard and fast but you need to be able to kick more than once or twice right. So logically training a muscle to be continuosly relying on fast twich fibres and power energy systems is not the answer. The key is both. If you like Buakao you will understand his raw speed and power in such dynamic kicks. In this upcoming K1Max he is first up against Sato. Now Sato is not a hard kicker or really fast either but he kicks alot. Seriously he took Kaoklai apart by peppering him with kicks constantly.

I suggest you look more into training all systems and at all times. Speed is best trained while fresh and not at all fatiuged thats simple and keep it so. Muscular endurance takes time to work on. So setting training for both, even intival work. Setting focus on one area is doom. Why concentrate on one specific area when your sport requires more.

Ok, all this talk about exercise has made me tied and its bedtime for me.
ercan gürgöze
Posted: 2006-05-23 04:00:11
weight loss ?...

as far as i remember, running (medium, something over jogging) stays in the middle of the list of sports described as worth of in calorie loss...

among those sports "wrestling "was described on the bottom (kcal spent in one hour)of this list , then boxing...exercise type long distance running was staying in the middle of series after many sports...(even, tennis was also worth of better than running...)

of course , this list was comparing the sports on the basis of "one hour"...
what was interesting to me was that the kcal spent in "jogging" and "walking (as competition type,way) " were the same...
Dave Jackson
Posted: 2006-05-23 07:08:35
I didnt say we dont do any endurance type exercises at all, I just dont think jogging for 6 miles is any use other than something else to do to lose weight (and muscle) A lot of back injuries and knee injuries also stem from running.

A balance is needed, we need to train both fast and slow twitch muscles. A mixture of cardio and anearobic work is good. But keep it sports specific.

We also dont have 8 hours a day to kill in the gym as they do in thailand. I think that may have something to do with it too.

I teach a private lesson every week to a fitness trainer. She teaches clients to run. She can eaasily run 10 miles per day every day but cant string together 5 consecutive 1 minute rounds with 30 sec breaks on the pads.
dirty dave
Posted: 2006-05-23 08:34:07
Mark L

What is your basis for all the advice/theories you give out on this forum? No disrespect but I'm just interested to know what qualifies you to write such overly long accounts on human physiology and performance?
Mark L.
Posted: 2006-05-23 09:25:39
LOS-running and strong legs. What I understand is that muscles strengthen in the range you use them. Running will have limited strength benifits to kicking for example. Just like curling the 1st 20degrees won't make you stronger in the last 20degrees of a biceps curl.

In terms of being able to take the kick (leg kick). That has always been something I wondered about. I think that mental is huge and a big factor. I have had a Thai go specifically for the legs and I my training partner had the same experience. It didn't stop us from fighting.

The Thais tell me farungs legs are weak cause we eat bread and that we should eat rice. Though its kind of funny and I odn't believe that to be true I think there is some truth in it.

The main reason...I have been looking for a logical answer to that for awhile...

I also think that the Thais are much more relaxed in training and fighting and that this makes a difference. Another plus for the Thai style of 'sparring' in my book.
Mark L.
Posted: 2006-05-23 09:56:20

Mayweather-we specifically had this conversation with my strength coach about a month ago. My training partner brought it up. He doesn't have crazy amounts of fast twitch and is always looking at speed. Mayweather has incredible speed and finding out how he trained we questioned what we were learning. We discussed it and then brought it up with our coach (who works with pro athletes/olympic athletes and in my experience, even if I beleive something else but do what he says I am always happy with the results-and later usually figure out why).

He was talking about how the genetics come into play in ones composition of fast twitch/slow twitch etc and also how the nervous system plays a big role.

I trust his knowlage, skill and experience and it also makes sense to me with what little I know of the body and how it works and from my studies and experiences etc

Now, how much it could effect the individual I don't know. Like I said I think you can get away with it when someone is as gifted as Mayweather.

But training someone with a weaker experession of genes, with more slow twitch and with a weaker nervous system.. I think you'll get much worse effects.

Training both aerobic and anaerobic for best of both worlds.

I don't believe you need much aerobic conditioning for MuayThai. Because one breaths hard and gets tired doesn't mean you are working mainly inthe aerobic energy system.

"Its very hard to be aerobically and anaerobically fit at high levels because they detract from each other chemically"

"As anaerobic levels of fitness go up, the size of the mitochondria goes down and the whole chemical profile switches towards anaerobic. The more areobic you get the more mitochondial density you get and the less of an anaerobic profile you get."
-Paul Chek Program Designs Choosing Reps, Loads, Tempo & Rest Periods 1995 The CHEK Inst (DVD lecture)

Distance runners are not good at sprints and sprinters are not good at distance.. you can't train both. At least not at high levels.

For sport you want high levels of what you need most.

But doesn't things like Dave saying his fighters don't run and DO have gas amke you go hhmmm

Mental-upping the intensity isn't easy. I think people get the impression that less is easier.. Not if the intensity goes up..

You will never kick the bag 200 times as hard and fast and as powerful as you can hit it 40 times. Its just not possible. One gives way to the other. try it for your self.

So if I want to kick between 10-30 times a round why not train (build to) 30 kicks a round? Any more WILL detract from power, speed etc Or maybe you want to be able to throw 40...fine. The training should be designed around your goals.
Mark L.
Posted: 2006-05-23 10:00:08
Not sure how running for an hr straight helps train your recovery system for fighting.

In fighting you explode and stop, explode and stop. to a degree in different amounts. Or you go, go, go for 3min and then stop and get a break.

Garanteed running/sprinting for 3 min will have you breathing damn hard. My heart rate reaches close to 200. Then I train the recovery that your are talking about.

Going steady pace for an hr.. very different. and you only recover after.
Mark L.
Posted: 2006-05-23 10:01:27
"Developing endurance is not just about aerobic conditioning. Anaerobic conditioning is fundimental to most sports. It's important for athletes to develop the ability to recover from quick bursts of explosive activity. Endurance for sports is not about how long you can maintain a steady state of activity; it is the capacity to explode, react, recover, and maintain skill no matter what you're up against." -Gray Cook Athletic Body In Balance

To me that makes perfect sense
Mark L.
Posted: 2006-05-23 10:12:55
xnfx-rnds and gas in tank

It uses more gas to go with more intensity. Quantity and intensity have a sea saw effect. One goes up and the other must go down.

I do believe in shortening the rnd IF and when the fighter is recovering enough already to be able to perform and maintain intensity.

Mark L.
Posted: 2006-05-23 10:15:17
snail-IMO running is great for getting weight down..well by great I mean very effective.

I'm not saying running distance is bad it depends on your goals. I am saying that I believe its not the best choice for conditioning or performance.

However do a body fat count on a sprinter and a distance runner...

Of ocurse distance burns muscle too so you loose more weight..
Mark L.
Posted: 2006-05-23 10:22:37
Sting-you mentioned a fighter needs to kick more than a couple times and there for needs to train both systems. At least thats what I understood of it..

Though the ATP system is indeed very short it doesn't mean it is fully used in a couple seconds.

Fighting is not like running. The same muscles in the same movement over and over and over.

The short term energy system is used up that fast in MAX contraction of that specific area for a steady state.

The Thais relax and use great muscle co-ordination and use a lot of power but I don't believe many kicks are MAXed out. Also with using different weapons and the stops etc etc there is more time for recovery.

So I still believe a MuayThai fight doesn't go into the aerobic energy system much (at least it isn't dominant as its always there).

Training the times you fight regardless of how it breaks down will be training the energy systems(provided you simulate a fight) you will be using.

Mark L.
Posted: 2006-05-23 10:25:22
Sting-you mentioned a fighter needs to kick more than a couple times and there for needs to train both systems. At least thats what I understood of it..

Though the ATP system is indeed very short it doesn't mean it is fully used in a couple seconds.

Fighting is not like running. The same muscles in the same movement over and over and over.

The short term energy system is used up that fast in MAX contraction of that specific area for a steady state.

The Thais relax and use great muscle co-ordination and use a lot of power but I don't believe many kicks are MAXed out. Also with using different weapons and the stops etc etc there is more time for recovery.

So I still believe a MuayThai fight doesn't go into the aerobic energy system much (at least it isn't dominant as its always there).

Training the times you fight regardless of how it breaks down will be training the energy systems(provided you simulate a fight) you will be using.

Mark L.
Posted: 2006-05-23 10:30:12
dirty dave-what qualifies me to write my opinions is that this is a discussion board. :)

My training and studies officially are mostly with The CHEK Inst.

I have only completed the NLC level I with them so far.. Working at some more stuff. Have studied with The Colgan Inst.

I seak out the best I can find and then see how it compares to what I already 'know' and believe and keep looking for more.

I read loads and study quite a bit and ask shit loads of quastions of anyone I think may have answers.

I've mentioned above some of the books I've read and some of the experts in this area that I try to learn from (that doesn't mean I'm right or that they believe that, its just what I have understood from them)
Posted: 2006-05-23 11:03:48
there is a big like half hour long file of an open training session of floyd mayweather training for zab judah you see him doin all his trainning if this helps ne1 just search for floyd mayweather on
Mark L.
Posted: 2006-05-23 13:32:08
He's amazing, no? :)
Posted: 2006-05-23 14:17:38
hes ok i suppose
i reckon i cld do him lol nah hes quality so sharp hate to say it butt i think he would beat hatton
dirty dave
Posted: 2006-05-23 14:55:17
You just seem to have an instatiable thirst for this stuff. Seems you do well in an academic setting that's all.

Your not from the UK but if you were I reckon you'd do well to get on recognsed degree programme and follow it up as a research scientist, you'd probably find out something useful.

Sorry but, as a concept I'm not particularly keen on the Chek institute thing, it's a little too evangelical for my liking.
Dave Jackson
Posted: 2006-05-23 15:19:15
dirty dave, Mark L has seen the dark side of overtraining at first hand therefore he has had to work really hard to get himself back to fighting fit in a way that wont damage his body again.

I first met Mark in Thailand when he was 'overtraining' in the gyms in the northern provinces :)
Posted: 2006-05-23 16:31:44
Mark, I agree but disagree.
The main thing that I can consider is training specific per fighter and per style. In regards to running and kickboxing, sure its not that similar but a great place to start. The same muscles a sprinter uses (hip Flexors) are the same muscles we use to throw full speed and power into a kick. Endurance plays a big part in the sport and all the camps in Thailand that I have been to and trained in, had specific, long distance and duration runs. Again it is an individual thing and I keep stressing that. Road work is age old for fitness in any fighting sport, Thaiboxing not being an exception but an example. Because the human body functions under the control of our nervous system (brains) we need to stimulate our brains and thats one thing I feel people need to do. Run on different torrains, hills, times of day, weather, durations and pace. Some forms of power training plyometric, ballistic and power lifting can also aid in getting power in movements thats simple but I disagree with Thai boxers not utilising as much aerobic energy during a fight. Unless a fight ends in the first round I have not seen anyone that aint puffing after a fight.
Understanding and enhancing an individuals VO2max is crucial, not just for the fighter but his corner. I have seen many fights where the guy controls the first 4 rounds only to slow in the 5th and lose by KO or TKO. My belief is that aeorobic training for fighters is good but too much of a good thing is bad and I agree there too. Swimming is a great way to build endurance and it offers areas for fighters that running cannot. Breathing in swimming is a crucial thing and so is breathing with a mouth peice. Some people can run to heaven and back but with a mouth peice in, they are lucky to get to the local store.

So, back to it. I still stand by a mix of training to develop a full packaged athlete.
Mark L.
Posted: 2006-05-23 20:31:03
Dave-spot on lol I certainly was..years and tests and a biopsy later...

Sting-I agree with the need for endurance I just don't agree on the method. I just don't see breathing heavy an fatiguing as an idication of lack of aerobic conditioning.

Dirty Dave-no need to say sorry for your opinion ;)
Posted: 2006-05-24 06:48:17
Maybe the long distance running the Thai fighters do is a good way to get your body used to all the constant strain of a fight, and also makes it better to deal with lactic acid build up during the duration of the fight?

Thanks for the posts and keeping this thread going. :)

I still can't see how Mayweather is so damned fast with all the training he does that "should" be slowing him down according to science. :) Same goes for Buakaw. Could they be so gifted that no matter what they do, they'll be faster than the competition? Or do they know something we don't?

Posted: 2006-05-24 07:10:15
Did anyone check the links with Mayweather on?

My good god how fast is he and supremely powerful.
Raymond Bennett
Posted: 2006-05-24 08:16:20
Great subject guys.

I think comparisons with training in other sports is interesting.

I sometimes wonder which other sports produce the athletic type best suited to Muay Thai.
If you look at track athletes you might say that sprinters have the explosive power and fast twitch muscles that could overwhelm opponents and give knockout power. The downside being that they are short on endurance even 800 metre runners look spent after a 1minute 40 second race, hardly conducive to 5 3minute rounds where the latter rounds count most. Marathon runners certainly have the endurance but are they equipped for changes in tempo?
Perhaps the ideal comparable distance would be the middle distances 1500 to 5000 metres. The races last between 3 1/2 minutes to 15 minutes and often finish with a powerful sprint. We've all seen top African runners destroying an international field through injections of pace. Maybe it could be worth looking at how these athletes prepare for their races.

Obviously this maybe a little simplistic and other factors such as the weight of the fighters might come into play too.

I found this link to middle distance training thru a google search. Seems to tie in with what Mark L was saying, but I think endurance is still the basis.
Interested in your thoughts.
Raymond Bennett
Posted: 2006-05-24 08:18:49

don't know if I can paste the link properly...
Mark L.
Posted: 2006-05-24 08:29:02
Raymond-As I was reading I was thinking to look at how runners train for races that last around three minuits.. I'll have to look but I'm off for a run at present :). I'll be running 'rounds' tho. No distance.

I don't think its simplistic at all. I do think though that runners use certain muscles to run or mainly certain ones and also in a very set ROM. Hip flexors were mentioned before..runners use them and to kick uses them.. well training the hip flexors in the ROM needed in jogging is not the same as sprinting (most injuries happen in the starting and stopping phases too) and in sprinting isn't the same as kicking.

How many people tire in a fight-breath HARD..? We've all done it I'm sure.

Now we can't simulating that kind of training prepare you for exactly that?

I understand how ingrained in our belief systems runniung is but how about a little support for the idea?

If a distance runner can't do a 3 min run as fast and as well (he'll be 'tired and btreathing hard') as a guy that trains for a 3min run...

Can a 3min runner do distance? does he train distance for his 3min running? I don't think many would.

I'll loolk at the link later but this should sugest something no?
Posted: 2006-05-24 08:45:29
i'd say cross-country runner would be better suited as they have to deal with heavy ground, various inclines, various conditions underfoot, sprint finishes and pacing themselves, even with all these variables...
Raymond Bennett
Posted: 2006-05-24 08:47:31
Hicham El Gerrouj (sp?) has just retired. Still holds World 1500m record but was also champion at 5000 metres I believe. Extremely fast kick but great stamina over 5000m. Also tall and skinny like a lot of good Muay Thai fighters.
Raymond Bennett
Posted: 2006-05-24 08:55:34
we could both be right Richard because I think it's often middle distance runners who do the best during the winter cross country events. Need to look into it though.
Posted: 2006-05-24 09:33:45
sorry for cross threading...but it is for a good cause!

LOL :)
Mark L.
Posted: 2006-05-24 09:51:54
I'm not sure fatiguing and breathing hard are good scientific or logical reasons for distance running.

This morning in my run (running 3min rnds) My heart rate reached 190b/min in 1:20secs in the second rnd.

Put a heart rate moniter on and do back or pad work and put one on a run 5 miles.. see what you see

I think off road is a way better place to train for many reasons. I am on a track at present though (building a base level first)
Raymond Bennett
Posted: 2006-05-24 10:35:33
was reading more about Hicham El Gerrouj - he was double Olympic gold medalist over 1500m and 5000m at the same Olympics. Also 1500m world record of 3m26s.

Found this biographical article which makes a fascinating read :

Interesting similarities with Buakaw leaving the impression that the guy is a freak of nature who can cope with a phenomenal amount of training. Interesting excerpt
"Among the runners at the table was Patrick Ndayisenga, the national record-holder in the marathon from the central African nation of Burundi, who had come to Ifrane to train with the Moroccans. He said he had been amazed to see el-Guerrouj, a miler, training like a marathoner, running 13 to 15 miles in an hour and a half. El-Guerrouj also trains like a sprinter, running sometimes with a weighted jacket, dragging a tire, and he does bounding drills to increase the propulsion in his ankles. The mile has come to resemble the brutal pace of the 800 meters and el-Guerrouj better than anyone has perfected the grueling training for speed and endurance. "

Other interesting parallels could be drawn with the relaxed laid back lifestyle many Moroccans lead and their excellent cuisine.

Apologise if this seems too far off topic but I still think it relevant.

Mark L.
Posted: 2006-05-24 13:04:44
"he would run 20 times 350 meters in 53 or 54 seconds, up a grade of 12 to 15 degrees to build strength and endurance."

still looking
Mark L.
Posted: 2006-05-24 13:15:01
"He does four types of work:

30-45 min of continuous running

50-60 min of continuous running.

For this type of work there are not precise conditions, he is not asked any specific pace, however. he is demanded that he runs at his maximum at that moment, this varies from one day to another and has nothing to do with the season. So, this means that El Guerrouj can run one day between 3:00-3:10/km pace and sometimes at 2:50/km.

4 x 2000 m in 5:10 with 2 min recovery

6 x 1000 m in 2:30 with 2 min recovery"

Looks like he has some of both in there...

Haven't look too deep yet. Gotta run

Posted: 2006-05-24 22:33:54
Today I seen a little show on Jiu Jitsu expert Jean Jacques Machado. He does a full weight lifting routine before he starts his agility things. He lifts the weights fast and explosive, and does high reps, then runs stairs to keep his heart rate up in between sets while waiting for a machine.

His certified trainer Flavio DeOliveira I think. After the weight routine, then they start going through his jiu jitsu techniques. Their theory is to get Jean Jacques fatigued and tired before they start the mental stuff. So he's going through techniques over and over, all the while exhausted. But, when you see him in matches, there's no hint of slow unexplosive muscles. All his moves and techniques are sharp, smooth, and fast. They say that they train like this do develop muscle memory, so his body can complete the moves perfectly no matter what he feels like.

Mark L, what do you think about this one? You mentioned training technique when you're fatigued would work against you, but I can't see it in this example. This seems like a great mental training because you're tired, but still able to complete and execute moves perfectly.

They also say he trains like this even when he's sick, to see what his body can and can't do.

Hey guys since were already talking about running and how it translates to kicking. Can we start talking about punching, and good ways to develop punching power and most importantly punching speed? What are the best ways to train this, and add more speed and power to what you already have?
Posted: 2006-05-24 22:36:31
Along with developing faster punches, kicks, punching power, explosiveness in the ring, endurance etc. What are some ways you can train your nervous system to react and function fast? Or is there even a way to do this? What about some ways to develop a faster reaction time, and faster punching and kicking reaction time. How would you go about getting your muscle to fire and release your punch or kick in the split second that a target becomes available?
Mark L.
Posted: 2006-05-25 00:26:04
sounds like the bjj guy is an exception to the norm.. Trains when sick...saying that says to me he gets sick often enough to mention.. Health and sickness are opposite. I would guess he';s over training but its working for him...still

Waiting for a machine-well IMO there is a time and place for machines, Rarely in sport conditioning though. As a rule of thumb you couldn't pay me to train on a machine.

If I had genes and expression of them like that guy..I could probably do anything and get away with it for so long

Training technique when fatigued

If he can do it great! Though I don't think every day doing this sounds smart. Ground technique and stand up are very different. the stand up game is much more technical IMO. Many will argue and I know ground gets extreamly technical but let me try to explain..

On the ground the technical aspects come with a better and better opponent.

I think punching and kicking is much more dynamic than going for an arm bar or choke.

The more dynamic a movement the more difficult it gets technically.

I might not be using the right wording here as I'm sure some of the moves on the ground are very technical..

But explosive and dynamic while on 1 foot or predominantly one foot(most people have huge weight transfer while punching) is much different than wrestling for position.

Ones not better or worse and there is alot of technical in the ground game.

But its much easier to keep form trying fpor an arm bar than throwing a kick full force when tired IMO

Not sure if I explained what I'm thinking on that one there well.

I do know it takes much longer to teach a ground guy stand up than the othyer way round. At least in my experience.

I think there is way more going on in a kick than in an arm bar in terms of nervous system and co-ordination and dynamic intrinsic stabilization on a gross and segmental level etc etc etc

I think looking for trainers whos fighters always have gas would give better clues than individuals as there are so many factors from person to person. And to top trainers in other sports etc and thier philosophies etc

fatigue the nervous system and you'll be able to role better than to stand up and fight IMO
ercan gürgöze
Posted: 2006-05-25 14:50:56
in training you have to cheat the body for improving...the body is very interesting, it adapts very easily to each condi,tion...if you train with standart routines like "running" it will adapt very easily...

secondly, it is very difficult to keep the peak condition level since the human body has a very changable, fluctuating condition graphic i.e. max condition level can be kept only for 15-20 days...after this period the level would decrease even with proper ,
good training...if it wouldn't be so then always the level would be always increasing without any end...

i think that running especialy in long,frequently is just wasting time...instead of, other alternative applications would be much more better especialy done in cheating form...for example, after a 20 min speedy, hard trainig relax for 5 min ,start with slow tempo for 10 min and then begin to train hard,speedy for another 20 min etc...

running every day ; "boring and just wasting time"
Mark L.
Posted: 2006-05-25 15:01:19
"boring and just wasting time" :)

mental training maybe
weight loss

Posted: 2006-05-26 03:30:40

Whats the rounds running routine you are doing? how many? and how many times a week?
Mark L.
Posted: 2006-05-26 14:04:27
I do a fartlek type run for a rnd and walk the break.. throw a couple sprints in a fast run and you'll be knackered at the end of one rnd easy..

I go high intensity (should be hitting at least 2 laps on a track in 3 min) and build up on rnds..

Instead of runnig easy for a long time aqnd trying to build up distance of intensity I go high intensity and build rnds

As I get stronger I may jog the break..but first I'll shorten the break once I'm at 5 rnds and once my heart rate drops enough (recovery)

I am just starting twice a week. Did once a week for a while..

'll prob stick to twice a week untill I have a fight coming up..then I'll cut back on weights (do maintanace) and run 3 times a weeks (if I can't get in conditoining on pads or bag).

Regardless of how you dice it this will be close to the energy I need for the ring.
Mark L.
Posted: 2006-05-26 14:04:57
I'll let you know how my energy is when I fight next :)
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