Conventional ab training is old school and has many draw backs

This has come up here and there over different threads.

My idea with this thread is not what we do or did or what we found works but what the actual results are from doing sit-ups etc

sit-ups (and other traditional '6 pack' training)

Bulge stomach (not good for power transfer) (look at body builders when relaxed). How many of you have definded abs but they stick out? Weak TA and 6 pack trained to be short.

Muscles adapt to training and use. You are working the 6 pack in a short range of motion. It CANNOT pull your stomach in. It works to pull the rib cage to the pelvis to do so it BULGES outwards. lay down with hand on stomach and do a sit up. You will feel it bulge, not suck it.

Shortens hip flexors - not good for anything and poses many limitations and strongly effects posture. Tight hip flexors a common problem in western society and a large factor in alot of back pain (about 90% of western population will experiance back pain in life)

Promotes forward head posture. Body will balance self. If head is forward it will compensate-eg might stick out your ass. When you aren't balanced you limit power and risk health and pain and finction.

When training 6-pack without balance of core muscles, especially TA the brain uses 6-pack to stabilize spine-thats not its job

Brain muscle signals take the strongest route. When you work rectus abdominus (6 pack) the brain to muscle signals get stronger. This is good and fine but when they are trained in excess and out of balance with the TA for example then the signals to TA are weaker and 6 pack stronger. This means when you try to initiate a powerful movement the body tries to use the 6 pack to stabilize spine.

That is not its job. Its largely the TAs job. You are not as strong and cannot produce as much power when your TA is not stabilizing your spine. Thats a fact!

The TA should fire automatically when initiating a power movement. Over use and training of 6 pack can stop this happening.

You CANNOT produce as much power!!

Breathing

"Traditional abdominal crunches on the floor and sitting for prolonged periods in front of a computer with poor ergonomics promotes forward head posture. These bodily positions also promote rounded shoulders and tight abdominal muscles, which pull the ribcage down, preventing the belly movement necessary for efficient breathing." "When breathing becomes shallow, tension within the body increases, as less ozygen is supplied to the muscles.
-"Power Psoture" Lee Parore

remember tight hip flexors (sit-ups does this)? Psaos is a main hip flexor..

"You need to keep your psoas muscle free, to avoid it pulling on the lumbar spine, where the psoas and diaphragm muscles attach, preventing the diaphragm from moving easily" -this effects breathing
-"Power Psoture" Lee Parore


Also a balanced chain and body make it much stronger than over focus on one area.

Different people have different ideas on core and core training but I don't think there are many experts who don't realize the strength and nessesity of balance and core training.

This is enough for me to know not to do sit-ups and traditional ab training.

ok just posting these asa a point.

Are my abs the best out there? NO

This is about 3 years of not training with sit-ups

2 years of not being able to train-health problems. The odd sit-up

1 year rebuilding and training-starting with 3 roundsof shadow, usually with a day off

In that one year I didn't do a single sit-up or traditional ab exercise for training (at a friends gym once did some-and odd time talking about sit-ups and doing one or two)

My point is my abs are pretty tight and my 6 pack is even pretty tight with NO sit-ups or traditional ab training

The thing is traditional ab training causes problems (I'm not talking about my ab training just saying my abs weren't bad by not doing it traditionally -and my core was WAY stronger).

The things is though that sit-ups cause problems as well as get some desired effects.

Its old school and it causes problems.

So what exercises were you doing if not the traditional ones? Or you didn't concentrate on any specific ab training at all?

great topic mark.

Please tell us first about the downsides to traditional ab exercises and then I'd like to hear about your alternatives.

We need to know the ab secret Mark!

a physio told me sit ups were bad for the back,.and they are..for mine. But he said i would get a strong enough stomach from the rest of muay thai training,kicking etc. I agree, most sit ups hurt the lower back more than the stomach IMO.
If youre body fat is low enough youre 6 pack will be visible,how hard it is is another question.

Great Post Mark. This is what I like most on the AX.

Mark L is soooo helpful.
He posts such helpful information.

I now do sit ups differently.
I do front 40, left side 40, right side 40, back 40, then continue around for like 400 to 600.

Slating traditional sit-ups on those grounds is fine in theory, but I can't imagine professional fighters giving up sit-ups as part of their training.....

Good for you that you've managed to retain a strong core, but what worked for you (which was..?) doesn't mean it will work for others

Doing too many 'up/down' sit ups can cause the 'bulge' you're talking about, but varying this with side-on sit-ups and leg raises will surely balance that out??

Muay thaison, I'm sure there are some sit-ups that don't hurt the back as much as 'conventional' ones; such as using an Ab roller or putting hands underneath your lower back when doing leg raises. Of course kicks etc all train your stomach muscles. I agree with what you say about low body fat showing off a 6 pack - and if it is really that strong? :)

Stef

What about tension training? Tensing for a specific amount of time?

Anytime a muscle contracts it "bulges".
Contract your biceps and it bulges. When a muscle contracts it becomes shorter...causing it to "bulge"

I think mark is talking about this worthless type of sit up...



It uses mostly hip flexors for the movement and the rectus abdominis is held in an isometric contration with little or no movement after the first few degrees off the ground.


If you want to strengthen your rectus abdominis (Abs) try this

So bascially out of all the sit-ups there are the one bad one is the up/down one? I'm sure people have realised that for a long time.... (why do you think 'crunch' sit ups were invented?!)

Hey Matt, explain "held in an isometric contration" please

When you do a sit up, you 'crunch' your abdominals bringing your strenum towards your pelvis. That limited range of motion is only a few inches. After that your abs are held in that contracted state (isometric contraction) as your hip flexors pull your upper body towards your upper legs.

When your are flat on your back, the range of motion of the abdominals is very short.

You want to hyperextend your spine, stretching your abdominals and then contract them through the full range of motion.

A stablity ball works great for this.


Mark isn't saying to neglect your abdominals, he is saying to properly balance their training with the other muscles of the trunk.

Makes sense.

That "pull the legs up" move that you showed on the pull up bar, does that also use the back muscles to a considerable degree?

I`ve also noticed on a sloping sit up bench, the ones where you lock your feet under a bar to stop you sliding down, that you seem to use your quads as much as your stomach muscles, and no matter what you do this can`t be avoided.

I like that one with the leg raises while hanging onto a bar, but it is difficult on the hands.
Can also be doen sideways raises, or even making circles with the feet.

Much easier and I like it more is by using parallel bars.

Good thread.

Ive just got a book by Paul Chek and did some tests from it that check if the TA is firing or not. Bit of an eye opener.

Has anyone here had any experiance with Chek's stuff? opinions?

The hanging leg raises-I think they are a great exercise in many ways.

That was part of what I did. Now I'm learning that hanging, though great in many respects, can have its problems.

To start I did bent leg hanging exercises but if you're body isn't balanced the right muscles might not be doing the job quite as they should.

I would find an expert (I don't think all 'experts' are good) and learn from there.

There is some sit-ups stuff i think that can be done but the TA needs to be trained first! (you're using your TA when you pull your belly button to your spine-an action that makes you stronger in all ways!!)

Yeah, though there are guys out there with better abs that mine were in those pics I think its pretty clear that they were in pretty good shape. Not saying don't work abs just saying conventional ways and imbalancing body conditioning has its problems.

The swiss ball curl up (Matts pic) I did earlier on for a bit. I have more resently learned, what I think is a better way.

The Paul Check Swiss ball curl-up works the 6-pak, like Matt said, in a longer range without the focus on bulging by working in the straight tocurled range.

TA (in all exercises) should be drawn in. You start curled over the ball backwards with abs extended and curl up just past center (again though the TA should be trained first! In many of us it doesn't work, largely due to faulty training and bad postural habits.

Now the biggest differance with the Check style that I see is that the chain that includes your neck is also used.

Adding the neck in there showed me that the link and chain weren't strong.

When i use to do the swiss ball curl-up I progressed to doing sets with weights I could hardly lift with my hands.

Adding the neck, and with out weights, I teried(neck did) in about 10 reps.

This shows that the chain wasn't balanced and my neck wasn't that strong.

Check style involves the head back and curling it up as you sit up. You never want to push the head forward (never put hands behind head). So you put your fingers in the hollow by your ear to serve as an axis point of rotation.

Not forgetting the very importand tongue lock (tongue on top of mouth-swallow and where it goes is where you put it) you rotate your head with the sit up.

The point that your neck tires is when you stop..so you're bring the chain into balance which will make you stronger.

So tongue lock, TA activated and rotate head up with the sit up. Start well extended and don't come too much past center....

I'm starting to do this one. So there is an example of an exercise that a large focus is on the showy 6 pak while linking and making it functional without bulging.

But it also gives an indicator about balance and chains.

I think hanging stuff is good but I think your body needs to work properly first and I don't think its something to start with. Though it worked well for me.. There are lots of variations with the hanging..

T-Check is really impressing me. My training partner is training with a CHECK practitioner and I hope to start with him as well soon.

Check is who made me look at Metabolic Typing. Is the book you have "How to Eat, Move, and Be healthy"? That book is really impressing me.

I plan to do some courses though The CHECK Institute too.

Great article on the CHECK site

"Back to the Future of Abdominal Training"
-Paul Chek

oh-putting feet up on bench buring swiss ball curl up helps take out hip flexors even more(tried first time Thurs-like it)

In that pic above-I'd go back more and get hips up more.

Isn't it spelled CHEK?

lol I hope not

I don't think so...

It is! lol

when I type it in my computer it comes up and changes it for me

CHEK

chekinstitute.com

Mark.
It is "How to Eat, Move, and Be healthy" that Im reading. Quite impressed with the book so far, though not what I expected.

I orderd it because I knew that Chek is respected for the swissball stuff etc and Im trying to fix my back.

The metobolic diet stuff I havn't really tried out yet, have you had good results?

According to the Nutrition and Lifestyle questiionaires anything much more then a walk is too much for my currnt lifestyle :-)

Im looking into doing some of the core training etc corrospondance courses, quite exspensive though.

Im impressed that you got your conditioning to fight back in a year, after such a long lay off. Im in a simular situation at the moment, trying to get back into it after having surgery on both knees (only cartlige and a clean up but 7 months waiting for the operation and all the imbalances Ive developed in between are the issue). The aim is to be fit enough to fight by the end of '05.

T-I have seen (actually today watched and went over some) of the videos you are talking about. I think they are excellent but if its worth it it depends on what you want I guess.

If you have some base knowlage and an interest and time the stuff is top. Or maybe you could look for a trainer in your area..

feel free to e-mail.

I haven't read this yet (think in the book you mentioned) but was related to me. You mentioned joints so...

Buy an organic/free range chicken and a super market chicken. Pull the leg off of each and feel the differance between.

ok what do you need to eat for your tendons/ligaments to be strong?

Nice way of looking at it, no?

T-the stuff is really impressing me and I think its excellent.

It talks about an explains how to asses function and to retrain your body to use the right muscles to do the job. I think most people (especially those who do lots of SIT-UPS) use the wrong muscles and sometimes don't use some of them much at all.

I think this will efect energy, balance, power, chance of injury, back problems etc etc

You couldn't pay me to do sit-ups of over focus on the 6-pak.

By the way I still have a bulging belly from my years of faulty ab training.

You should be able to stand not flexed! and have a natural inward curve.

I have seen the relaxed stomach inward curve on people.

Who doesn't want a tighter gut???? Conventional ab training sticks your tummy out!!

Go to the gym and look at all the serious weight lifters. I bet most will have pretuding bellies. Though they might have very strong 6 paks thier stomachs stick out like they are bloated.

I have nothing against weight lifting or even body building. But blindly copying a sport that requires NO function (except flexing and posing) is not smart if you're an athlete or want functional strength.

Now there are body builders the have functional strength but I don't think its the norm and again they generally focus on their sport which doesn't require function.

But thats who most of us learn our weights from...

"blindly copying a sport that requires NO function (except flexing and posing) is not smart if you're an athlete or want functional strength."

Quote of the month.

The information about food that Chek has is actuallly quite scary. Bit like watching that documentory where the guy only ate Mc D's for a month.

"blindly copying a sport that requires NO function (except flexing and posing) is not smart if you're an athlete or want functional strength."

Sad that this is where so much training 'facts' come from really

What's a non conventional ab exercise that you can do at home with no swiss balls, hanging bars, or any other gizmos?

What about those "plank" exercises? Are they good, or bad?

Bodybuilding isn't a sport, That would be like calling the Miss USA pagent a sport.

xnfx-

I'd look for core stuff and do it while looking into retraining your body.

I think the idea with this thread is to show positives and negatives with traditional ab training.

Maybe a thread should be started on peoples suggestions on what good ab (read core) training is.

T-it is but its also amazing to know that you can take controle and make changes and improve, no? :)

"T-it is but its also amazing to know that you can take controle and make changes and improve, no? :)"

True.

"Maybe a thread should be started on peoples suggestions on what good ab (read core) training is."

Good idea

"Sit-ups, straight leg raises and Roman chairs, and lying or sitting ab machines that constrain the feet or legs, primarily exercise the psoas muscles which run from the top of the femur (thigh bone) through the pelvis to connect to the lumbar vertebrae. The psoas act to move the trunk towards the knees. Now you know why a lot of ab exercises give you a sore lower back.
The psoas become very strong whenever you arch your back to increase their leverage, and will override the six-pack, which is weak in any unsupported arched back position. Arched back means belly out, not the way you want to be for sport, or for life. Arched back with psoas under load also puts a shearing load on the lumbar spine, a big no-no for athletes."

-Dr. Michael Colgan

A lot of questions asked but no answers really given.

You think I should have all the beginner's at my gym do hanging leg raises?! Yeah, right.

Tell you what... I think I'll stick with the situps that we have been doing for years. As usual I'll make sure the legs are bent and no support given to the legs. I'll make sure people aren't arching their backs just like usual. I'll make sure we do a varied routine of ab exercises so as not to do too much for the hip flexors. Just like we always do and have done for years.

In other words... you haven't changed my thinking very much. I mean look at the "core training" thread you can see none of you seem to know what you are doing.

Yes it is pretty commonly well known that the rotation of the body that happens when punching and kicking will use the trunk therefore the abs and therefore help create ab strength.

Enjoyed the thread but can only take so many questions without any real answers.

I don't think there is any end all be all. A varried rountine makes good sense. There is more to the "trunk" than the abs though. Legkick do you do any leg type traditional ab work ie. leg raises and such. Also the twisting exercise like medicine ball work work I think mostly the obliques, which are important none the less.

"Yes it is pretty commonly well known that the rotation of the body that happens when punching and kicking will use the trunk therefore the abs and therefore help create ab strength."

The Abs (Rectus Abdominus) does not rotate the body at all. It flexes trunk, aids forced expiration and raise intra-abdominal pressure.

The techno science babble is real helpful. You showed me. Let me go get my physiology book and name all the muscles in the middle of the body before I make any more statements.

Yes, I have studied the musculature of the body a bit although definitely not as educated as some here. Why would I get overly technical even if I could. Let's see there is rotation and stabilization and seems like maybe the muscles in the stomach area will get used while punching and kicking actions occur.

Yeah, Donald, do it all... leg raises, v-ups, bicycles, crunches, situps, passing the medicine ball. I have personally done many other exercises including haning leg raises but I'm thinking more along the lines of running people through basic exercises in the gym. Everything from not very fit beginner's to better conditioned athletes.

It's great to learn and question and try new things but I don't see much specifics in terms of new and better exercises and routines going on here.

People kind of put down bodybuilding and I can understand that an athlete doesn't want to do exactly what a bodybuilder does but also it should be understood that when bodybuilding started to become more popular then athletes became more interested and better educated in how to become bigger and stronger for the performance of their sport... and to look good for the ladies of course.

Rectus Abdominus is techno science babble?


legkick, no need to get pissed man. I wasn't trying to "show you" with techno science babble.

IMO I think a well rounded "core" workout for a new student would be ...


-Hanging knee/leg raises (maybe with straps like these if they lack the grip strength to hold their bodyweight)


-Full contact twist

-Dumbbell side bends

-Reverse Hyper Extentions on a swiss ball

Matt, thank you. That is helpful information although I am not sure what a full contact twist is.

You provide some answers not just questions and speculation and you show some humility along with your knowledge and education.

Thanks again.

Leg kick-actually I talked about problems with hanging exercises above. How do the abs rotate the body? Hey, everyone can choose what they want. :)

There was another thread started on the actual exercises actually though I don't think alot has been put on it. I haven't been on line myself for a bit.

I think that core function should be assessed before starting an 'ab' routine.

If the TA isn't used then I think that should be delt with first. I think the exercises should start with learning how to use and then exercises that focus on its use.

Lower abs ability to stabilize the pelivis in relation to the weight of your legs as well.

Over all exercises-we talked above about the swiss ball cruntch I think.

I think there was mention of resting on elbows and toes. Superman stuff is great too.

But my personal opinion is that its an area to get assessed and work on for you. Everyone is different.

If you can squat 200lbs but can only squat 85lbs with TA activated and without '6-pak' taking over then for functional training and to strengthen TA in a way that it can actually be used in sport then you need to drop your squat to 85lbs untill your TA catches up (not just strength but brain/muscle conection and movement paterns etc.

So heres a tip. Tie a string around your waste when you belly button is drawn in just a little(activating TA). In any exercise you do the string should loosen. If it tightens during the exercise the weight is too heavy for your ability to stabilize the spine.

When you activate TA you'll get a little taller. Basically the muscles are holding you up taking the weight off your spine.

Lift with your spine or your muscles?

In Thailand the inward curve in the stomach (TA activated) was always taught. Most of us have a hard time with that especially when executing a power movement. That means we aren't using our core or full power potential.

Theres lots to it though. How you breath and use your diaphram etc all plays a part in core activation.

You will waste energy, limit power, risk injury, be slower in initiating movement (especially power) if the wrong muscles are doing the job I believe.

I'd study it for yourself or get a good trainer that assesses core function or not bother and do you're own thing. :)

Just a place of discussion and ideas :)

What a great topic with useful responses! It's too bad there aren't pics of some sort to simplify showing how to do the exercise.

Yes, more pics or clips.
Please.

here a wood chop from the CHEK Institute.

Back to the Future of Abdominal Training- Paul Chek is where I got the pic
(article)

The Colgan Institutes wood chops are a little different. I think both are great though I would edge towards the Chek style.

Back Strong & Beltless - Part I (artcle)
Paul Chek

Figure 10
Inner Unit and Outer Unit Synergy

A) If your outer unit is dominant over your inner unit, as you bend forward to pick up a load, a string placed around the waist will become tighter as you pass through the critical point (~90 percent lumbar flexion). If the load is significant enough to require activation of both inner and outer units, the string will have become loose as you bend forward and tight as you lift the load.

B) When the inner unit is strong enough to provide adequate stabilization, you will stay under the stabilization threshold as you pass through the sticking point. Staying under the stabilization threshold is indicated by the fact that the rectus abdominis and external oblique musculature have not shortened and thickened, pressing on the string.


-using the string I mentioned. Not sure if Chek came up with that ort got it somewhere but I got it from him..

Can use with all exercises that I can think of.

I would wager that most people would end up using mostly their arms for the above exercises and it would have little ab impact. I`m sure if it is done 100% correctly it would help but most would have a tendency to use the arms as the main lever to move the weight.

Gotta concentrate on the area you are trying to work. Gotta know the breakdown of the exercise and concentrate on doing it correctly. If you are doing certain exercises like these to work the abs or core or trunk or whatever you call it then you will want to really concentrate on feeling the rotation in your stomach area (at least in that top picture).

I can kind of see how an inexperienced person might try just using their arms in the top picture. In the picture of the guy on the ball it's basically impossible to not be using your "core" and also legs/glutes to hold up your legs. The arms aren't gonna have much to do with it. I've never done that exact exercise but can just see that. I suppose that's a reverse hyperextension?

Hope I used the word "core" correctly. I usually just say abs as a general term I guess.

I've done exercises very similar to that chek wood chop. I was doing those a long time ago. A bodybuilding guy taught it to me. hahaha.. yeah true story. Guess I'm ahead of my time and apparently he is way ahead of all of you. Little sarcasm about the bodybuilding thing but true.

legkick-good point. but if you don't know how to use the muscles you are trying to work you won't work them

Re the ball exercise, I can well imagine a lot of people using their arms to balance in the first place and putting a lot of bodyweight on the arms because of this, and not having the experience or ability to transfer weight correctly so the abs are worked.

I don`t like to sound negative as I appreciate all the input given on this forum, just trying to put a neutral slant on it for the less advanced.

Phil, try doing anything similar to that exercise and see how it feels.

Mark L, I guess you are right. Now I guess I see why you are always saying things like "find a good trainer." Yes you may need help working the correct muscles and I am now thinking back to a long time ago when I was doing new exercises and more experienced people would help me understand and feel how to do things correctly and use the right muscles and motions.

Getting it right is 100% vital as otherwise you are completely wasting your time and basically not doing anything for a lot of effort! Even an hour with a good trainer is worth its weight in gold as then you can be sure you will be doing everything correctly.

To train the rectus abdominus in a unique manner, pick up a medicine ball and hold it over your head, elbows and knees slightly flexed. Now, come up on the toes and accelerate the ball downward, attempting to burst it against the floor. If the ball has a little bounce to it, you'll be able to catch it and smoothly continue to the next rep in one fluid motion. For greatest force production, there should be little hesitation between raising and smashing the ball downward.

Another good one

img src="http://www.t-nation.com/assets/images/141e.jpg">

img src="http://www.t-nation.com/assets/images/141twist_start.jpg">

Mark, TA=Tibialis Anterior? I think not... Sorry but I cant understand what muscle is "TA", sorry mate!

Thanxs!

Transverse Abdominis – this is the deepest abdominal muscle. It is located between the ribs and the top of the pelvis beneath the other abdominal muscles. It forms a horizontal band across the gut area. It functions as a girdle also to compress the abdominal area. This muscle is thought to play an important role in stabilization of the trunk. It is a deep holding muscle that when activated allows movement of the limbs around a stable spine and pelvis.

source:http://www.courses.vcu.edu/DANC291-003/unit_3.htm

which is the best exercise to train the lower abs (the bit I have NEVER been able to get flat, the spare tyre holder!), as I have read these muscles are very small so can easily be overworked?

TA or TVA can not fire alone either. SO making sure you use it properly basically means you are using your pelvic floor and multifidus too. These are a large part of core.

you can feel them activate all together (women with incontinance problems train the TVA)

I don't believe sit up's are bad for your back. That may be the case if there is a muscle imbalance and your lower back is weak because of that. Too many people don't do lower back exercises to complement their ab work.

Sit-ups don't work a balance and to a large degree work the hip flexors in a short range of motion, including the iliopsoas. The iliopsoas, when short and tight is a main cause of postural imbalance and often a cause of back pain.

According to Parore its the main muscle in your body you want to keep loose and healthy. Makes a big difference in sex too :)

With Western life style of always sitting, which causes the hip flexors to shorten, combined with training it short by old school ab training (running also shortens it) its certainly a consideration to think about I think. Never mind that I believe there are more effective ways to train the abs/core etc even the 6 pak itself.

Sit-ups affect breathing to. As an athlete breath is extra important.

Hip extention on Thai style kicking is very important. Its interesting to see how many Westeners have a problem with it and cannot kick the same way Thais do (for better or worse) I have had problems too. The Thais I have trained with tend to have a far greater reach and power then anyone else I've seen.

Sakmonkol (great fighter and kicker for sure) kicks a little differently than most Thais. He seems to get less hip into it. Maybe its a style thing but I would like to know how tight his hip flexors are.

Back pain is uncommon in unindustrilised countries and almost everyone in the Western World will experiance some at some point in their lives. I believe this is largely to do with sitting for long periods of time-one of the major results being tight hip flexors (protruding belly and forward head posture as well) -all of which conventional ab traning usually promotes.

A few of the chaps at my gym use the hang straps. One tonight was doing the last picture on the last set above (hanging and raising legs so the feet are vertically above the head), very impressive. I watched him doing it and it seemed to work, just hope he doesnt think I was staring at him wanting some man on man action. Was going to ask them if they used CHEK techniques but just thought they would stare at me blankly whilst I blushed.

Ive started trying to use similar principles and it feels like it is doing soemthing, only very basic for now though.

I think its great but I think better yet to start with muscle function testing and retraining before doing exercises like that.

I did hanging ones and it worked great. I now know that I don't have proper function and I believe in retraining this I will get far better results and less chance of injury and will actually train the body like I was trying to do.

Good point. I felt like I was doing half of them completely wrong so retraining should come first. Dont run before you can walk etc.

Mark L,
Say someone needs to retrain their TA. What is the first, most basic movement you would suggest to them to start working it and getting it stronger to be more even with the 6 pack and other muscles?

Also since the Thais were brought up. If their hip flexors are loose, rotation is good, and have natural inward curves, how do they pull it off with all the situps they do? Is it a counteracting thing with other exercises?



Hey guys, how about a list of all the functional core exercises, so people can differntiate between what are more core oriented exercises, vs. just 6 pack exercises?

Thanks!

xnfx-this area is newer to me. I am just starting some studies and starting with a personal trainer(who knows his stuff) so I should be able to answer better sooner.

TA-the first thing (don't quote me on order). Laying down on back-deep abdominal breath, activate TVA, hold for 10 seconds (break 10?) 10 times.

You can then do on all four then sort of a sitting position with hands on knees, then standing.

But depending on strength and function level you may or may not do these.

All exercises should be done with TVA activated though.

I have day off tomorrow and plan to go through some of the tapes to start. Seen some but haven't studied proper.


I don't know that their inward curve is natural but they use there TVA alot. I think the sit-ups are counter productive. I think using TVA in stance and probably lots of core in clinch helps alot.

Thanks Mark!

Okay, stupid question. How do you activate TA?

In "eat, move and be healthy" by P. Chek he rcoomends an excerise where you
(paraphrasing from memory) are on all fours on the floor.

breath out long and let your belly hang down as far as it will go while maintainging a neutral spine.

Breath in and pull your belly button to your spine as far as it will go and hold.

When you need to breath again let your belly drop as you breath out as far as it will go while maintaining neutral spine.

x 10

NB: this is from memory and might have suffered from 'chinese' whispers since I read it

I don't know these guys bodies specifically but I would like to see them standing relaxed.

Arnold has a strong line and looks like he might have a more functional core. The other guy doesn't seem to have as much. But I'd like to see them perform a power movement and watch etc and see them standing relaxed.

T-sounds right to me. Worded it better too.

This is a bit of a test and a rehab exercise but depending on your core function you may or may not need to do it.

Try the string xnfx.

Do you lift weights? Do a couple reps of your normal loads and exercises with a string around your waist. Pull in belly button slightly and tie string. If TVA is functioning properly the string should get looser and stay loose through out the exercise. If you 6-pak takes over and the string is digging into your belly you know its not.

-weight belts will train you to use 6-pak instead of TVA. Don't use them except a new personal best maybe.

T-how you liking the book so far? I'm pretty impressed by it.

Thanks Mark!
Yep lift weights, but never really used a belt. So basically if you feel your six pack taking over, you want to concentrate on getting the TA back involved again?

T,
I read about something like you described, except this version was standing instead of all fours. Is this a good one for the core? Anyone see problems with doing this standing. I've tried it a few times and you can feel the burn for sure.

This is to assess if you TVA is working or if your 6-pak is being recruited or taking over.

just tie a string for some feed back

How important is the 'burn' when you're doing abs? I notice I get the burn really quick with the ball... is that a good sign? It's kind of weird, coz with other muscles I don't get the burn unless I'm doing a lot of reps with a light weight or decreasing weight after fatigue with the larger weight and doing more reps. But with the ball, I get the burn with about 10 reps.
Is there any benefit to keep going when you have the burn until you're absolutely dying from it? Or is it better to just add some weight?
The way I do the exercise is similar to that pic posted, i.e. head lower than the abs, and crunch up, with arms stretched out parallel to the floor.

I've read some things on the 'burn'. I'd have to look into more. I think it partly depends what you are training for and partly what muscles you are training.

Trainging for the Toure de France you'll want to have a high lactic acid treshold.

Training to throw a shot put you don't.

So there are many variables.

Type of muscle too. Fast twitch, slow twitch. Postural, prime mover etc

I can't answer but those are somethings to think about. A marathon runner and a hockey player have different demands on their muscles.

I think (not sure here) that postural and slow twitch muscles you can go for more of a burn with. Not sure though.

One thing is always being able to do with good form. When you loose form other muscles are taking over and you are teaching your brain to recruit the wrong ones.

With the swiss ball curl up most peoples necks will fatigue first. Are you roling up starting with the head and not protruding it? (keep tongue on roof of mouth)

My neck fatigues way before my abs.

I said above I think you should come to about level. I think now that you should come through full range. That doesn't mean coming up too far still. I think abs (rectus abdominus) can go about 30degrees of flexion (45degrees extention I think). So from floor you are getting less than half ROM.

But make sure that you balance out flexion and extention exercises to keep balanced.

Sorry can't really answer. Been taught a couple different things in that area and I'm not too sure about it right now.

But depends what you want and what you are training for and what you are training I think.

-make sure with TVA activation you aren't sucking in your abs like I was. If TVA is in and you breath then the upper abs should bulge with belly button in still.

From years of sit-ups I preobably have 3-6months of retraining my abdominal wall so that it works properly by its self.

Its not just being able to do it its training the brain muscle conections. Its training the right recruitment paterns.

Just like hands and knees
I think the progression they learn in physio is laying down, sitting, hands and knees, standing (could be wrong but thats close). Point is its all about retraining as well as strengthening.

Now cause you do that doesn't mean you can do it when it counts.

The string can give you feed back.

-side point I have never been able to squat-movement patterns, flexibility etc etc Yesterday for the first time I squatted with weight and good form through a full range of motion. :) -trying to focus on TVA activation throughout

Mark,
Im quite impressed by the book (the food stuff is a bit concerning though),
I havn't seen it in weeks though, after showing it to some training partners it got borrowed for a "couple of days".

"-side point I have never been able to squat-movement patterns, flexibility etc etc Yesterday for the first time I squatted with weight and good form through a full range of motion. :) -trying to focus on TVA activation throughout"

I have been playing with this, in a job I work part-time, involving a lot of repetitive lifting with a large variance in weight. I'm having a lot less fatigue/problems with my back since.

Flexibility has been an issue for me in getting ass to heels in squats (which is required for reasonable form in most lifting situations outside of a gym IMO) as well, I dont know why but it seems to be easier for me to get lower and maintain an arch in lower back if I concentrate on TVA (I havnt tied a string keep the image in mind)- its strange enough at my work to see someone bend there knees to lift let alone do with string tied around there waist.

I have just found a chek practitioner in my area (and got a job so I can pay for it) and think I will go get an assesssment and sort this stuff out properly.

Good to see you're getting progress with the training :)
When I'm doing the crunches on the ball, I'm starting with my feet wide to balance, and laying so my tailbone is on the top centre of the ball, so when I'm totally relaxed my head is almost at the floor. Then I have my arms extended as I crunch to a more upright position and finish my movement with my torso and arms about parallel to the ground. I try to concentrate on crunching/flexing my abs and to only curl my neck and head toward the very end of the movement to get the extra crunch.
I'd like to get definition and strength for taking hits... so MT-oriented.
What are your thoughts?

T-the food stuff is making more and more sense to me-I suggest reading "The Metabolic Typing Diet" gets into it in more detail.

My Mum absolutly loves the energizing exercises. A couple off my friends and myself have found them great too.

MT411-I'm a little lost. If the tail bone is on top how do you not go over? Just tried. I have no idea how you do that. I also think that you don't want to over extend and that keeping body on ball is a great guide.

I think the size of the ball is important to I think that the spine shouldn't be over extended. The head and cervical spine down should be on the ball I think.

I understand to start with curling the head (tongue lock in place). Arms in front reaching for knees, arms across chest, fingers to ears (never behind head), arms above head, weight. To progress in difficulty.

I'm sure there is more than one way but..

T-good stuff. Let us know what you think.

I'm loving it. Its amazing all the little things in any given exercise that changes it. Especially when you have imbalances and faulty recruitment paterns from your sport or faulty training, like sit-ups.

My right obliques are way stronger than my left for example.

Also the body likes to make things easy. So even conciously trying to keep good form its amazing how your body likes to cheat.

The day we did squats was after doing shoot the duck, 3 sets each leg, and throwing a medicine ball with legs, standing with it between feet. throwning in a pike.

It was alot to do with flexibility (the squat) but also teaching the body the movement.

Its so much easier to learn something new than to change.

Note people changing styles, how hard it is for most. Or someone fresh.

Teach your body wrong and you have way more work to do.

The point of this thread is that sit-ups aren't just not the best way to train abdominal wall (or even 6-pack) but it also will cause problems from breathing (which can activate sympathetic nervous system and help over load you with stress hormones), to neck problems, back problems, faulty recruitment paterns, weak core etc etc

I think "planks" came up in either this or another core strength topic, so I was wondering what you guys think of ab wheels? The movement you go through on the wheel seems similar to the plank position.

Don't know...would seem like a great core work out..

I'll find out for interest sake but I think my core function or TVA function is probably about 40-50%..

Pretty sad for an athlete...but thats what you get from years of training against it.

xnfx, I recently started doing planks after I read about them in the "Metro" of all places. I know they are an isometric contraction exercise but don't know how effective they are.

Is a plank like a 'table top'?

Don't know what a table top is! This is a description of the plank:

PLANK

1. Get into a modified push-up position, resting your weight on your forearms. Your elbows should be positioned directly under your shoulders.

2. Your body should form a straight line from your shoulders to your ankles.

3. Simultaneously pull your belly button toward your spine and squeeze your glutes tightly.

4. This tilts your pelvis backward and flattens the curvature in your lower back, which, in turn, increases the activation of your transverse abdominis.

5. Keep your back flat as you take shallow breaths for 30-45 seconds. Then rest 3O seconds and repeat two times.

Like I said, it's isometric contraction but I think it works. You can definitely feel the abs. Whether you can see them or not is a different matter.

great exercise!!! yeah I know it as a table top...

one caution I would add

-4. This tilts your pelvis backward and flattens the curvature in your lower back, which, in turn, increases the activation of your transverse abdominis.

Depending on ones body and tightnesses and weakness I wouldn't recommend trying to flatten your lumbar spine.. Some people are too flat to start with.
I'd try to keep good posture through out.

Its a great exercise..

can also go to the side on left forarm and side of left foot with other on top- raise right arm straight up with thumb facing the direction of your head.. if you can you can abduct your right leg too..


start on either left or right say for 30 then do plank then do other side thats a good couple I think.

Because its isometric you won't be very sore next day either.

I am also not so such that that increases TVA activation anyway...

Some oblique action in tilting the pelvis but I can't see the TVA doing that.

Chek-refferancing someone else-talks about the external (i think) being functionally classified as lower abdominal muscles as they can tilt the pelvis 10degrees (if memory serves)

One thing that I had troubles with to start and I see often is that when people try to activate TVA and pull belly button towards spine that they use large amounts of oblique without being able to seperate an isolate to retrain TVA/pelvic floor/multifidus.

I could be wrong..

TVA
Origin-includes iliac crest

so maybe it could help... anyone???

I still don't think training a flat back as a general guide is wise. Some back issuse and or injuries it could make worse and if you have a flat back there is no need to train it that way.

found this on Poliquins site (i belive he's had over 400 athletes in the olympics)

Fixing the Flaws – Part 1
April 20, 2005
By: Eric Cressy

A Look at the Ten Most Common Biomechanical Weak Links in Athletes continued...




"3. Lack of Overall Core Development: If you think I'm referring to how many sit-ups an athlete can do, you should give up on the field of performance enhancement and take up Candyland. The "core" essentially consists of the interaction among all the muscles between your shoulders and your knees; if one muscle isn't doing its job, force cannot be efficiently transferred from the lower to the upper body (and vice versa). In addition to "indirectly" hammering on the core musculature with the traditional compound, multi-joint lifts, it's ideal to also include specific weighted movements for trunk rotation (e.g. Russian twists, cable woodchops, sledgehammer work), flexion (e.g. pulldown abs, Janda sit-ups, ab wheel/bar rollouts), lateral flexion (e.g. barbell and dumbbell side bends, overhead dumbbell side bends), stabilization (e.g. weighted prone and side bridges, heavy barbell walkouts), and hip flexion (e.g. hanging leg raises, dragon flags). Most athletes have deficiencies in strength and/or flexibility in one or more of these specific realms of core development; these deficiencies lead to compensation further up or down the kinetic chain, inefficient movement, and potentially injury. "

http://www.chekinstitute.com/exercise.cfm

One thing about "planks". I was told by a fitness instructor that these are done in advanced Pilates classes. As such should only be done by people who have a reasonably strong core already and have no lower back problems. Sounds reasonable but is there any truth in it?

"3. Lack of Overall Core Development: If you think I'm referring to how many sit-ups an athlete can do, you should give up on the field of performance enhancement and take up Candyland. The "core" essentially consists of the interaction among all the muscles between your shoulders and your knees; if one muscle isn't doing its job, force cannot be efficiently transferred from the lower to the upper body (and vice versa). In addition to "indirectly" hammering on the core musculature with the traditional compound, multi-joint lifts, it's ideal to also include specific weighted movements for trunk rotation (e.g. Russian twists, cable woodchops, sledgehammer work), flexion (e.g. pulldown abs, Janda sit-ups, ab wheel/bar rollouts), lateral flexion (e.g. barbell and dumbbell side bends, overhead dumbbell side bends), stabilization (e.g. weighted prone and side bridges, heavy barbell walkouts), and hip flexion (e.g. hanging leg raises, dragon flags). Most athletes have deficiencies in strength and/or flexibility in one or more of these specific realms of core development; these deficiencies lead to compensation further up or down the kinetic chain, inefficient movement, and potentially injury. "


Thanks for posting that Mark!
That confirms that ab wheel is okay to do. I have one from the store only cost me $5. I've been wondering if it's a good one to do all this time.

its important to keep your spine in alignment when doing the plank which is why they probably said about having a strong core already and without lower back problems. You get different levels of the plank nowadays anyway(eg some done on your knees etc) so you can start easy and build up.

I'd have to agree with your comments on the plank. Any exercise is only as good as your technigue pretty much.

I would assess and re-establish brain to muscle connection and co-ordination of core musculature...

spine and pelvis actually

gez-you sound like you know what you're talking about.. whats your background or training etc??

alright mate,
i help run a mixed martial arts club in cambridge(Cambridge freefight) and I am certfied in Personal fitness training/nutrition etc. I don't come on here much due to time....

thanks

FIGURE 1. Poor Posture and Abdominal Training


© Paul Chek Seminars 1999 Those regularly performing crunch and sit-up type exercises frequently demonstrate forward head posture (A); note that when head carriage is normal the dotted line through the cheekbone should fall in the same vertical plane as the sternum and pubic symphysis. (B) As the rectus abdominus becomes chronically shortened, it pulls the chest downward, increasing first rib angle; this is commonly associated with shoulder dysfunction and impingement of the nerves feeding the arm as they exit the cervical spine. (C) As the hip flexors strengthen and shorten from chronic exposure to the sit-ups, leg extension and leg lowering exercises commonly used in abdominal workouts the lower abdominal and hamstring muscles are lengthened, frequently demonstrating positional weakness. The postural changes demonstrated here are common among today’s athletes and can be corrected through improved control and strengthening of the inner unit musculature.

-The Inner Unit

By Paul Chek
articles at www.ptonthenet.com
http://www.ptonthenet.com/displayarticle.aspx?ArticleID=36

I wonder why pic didn't go through..

sorry just dug this one up. what an excellent thread