ENGLAND V THAILAND - 19TH AUG Info from Muaythaionline.net

LEGENDS - The Thais are coming.

Saturday 19th August - Doors 4pm Show starts 4:30pm
Fairfield Halls, Croydon, London

International Superfight - Full Thai Rules
Steven Wakeling (Scorpions, England) vs Jomhod Kiatadisak "The King Of The Ring" (Thailand)

International Superfight - Full Thai Rules
Kieran Keddle (Keddles, England) vs Saengsamrit Jittigym (Thailand)

International Superfight - Full Thai Rules
David Pacquette (KO Gym, England) vs Samkor Keatmontep (Thailand)

Domestic Superfight - Full Thai Rules
Paulo Da Silva (Crawley) vs Damien Trainor (K-Star)

Domestic Superfight - Full Thai Rules
Richard Fenwick (Keddles) vs Richard Barnhill (Nongkee Pahuyuth)

Domestic Superfight - Full Thai Rules
Paul Murat (KO Gym) vs Richard Jones (Beastmasters)

2 more international superfights yet to be announced.

Officials for the event:
Tony Myers
Pele Nathan
Bill Heron
Nash Keshwara
Louis Meschia


The Fairfield Halls is South London's premier entertainment venue having played host to world championship snooker and the likes of Busted.
All seats provide an excellent view of the action and the venue has 5 bars, a cafe and 2 restuarants on site.
The show will feature dancers, video screens, page 3 ring girls and light shows.


Sanctioned by the World Muaythai Council. Tickets go on sale April.

Jomhod, Samkor, Saengsamrit....


in a word....



WOW!!!!!

Awesome lineup. Some good domestic matchups too. Glad to see Jones vs Marut. What weight will the Trainor da Silva fight be at??

A really great line-up. The only doubt appears to be Saengsamrit Jittigym. Liam H posted on ChokeMuay that he wasn't sure that Saengsamrit would be fighting now.

It will be brill to see a couple of Thai legends taking on strong domestic opposition as well as some very interesting domestic match-ups; well done Dan for putting it together.

As fr as I know Saengsamrit is fighting on this show, I have been arranging to go over and take his pic for the poster and looks to be lined up to fight.

Oh my god SAMKOR....wow sorry getting excited a bit!!

Cheers Rob for clearing that up. I am really pleased the fight is on, it will be good to see how Kieran has developed. A really great line.

Saengsamrit, Beag or Liam or Mr Smith clear this up for me but is this the same guy who beat Kieran in Raja stadium last year? Doesnt he normaly fight at 59-61kgs though?? What weight would he be fighting Kieran at? Anyone know?

I think he fought watterchai kaewsammrit at 58kgs at the end of last year, but as for the fight with Kieran,... I hear that Seangsammrit was on protien shakes and 2 chickens a day to build himself up to 63-65kgs, which is what he fought KK at.

Saengsammrit won on points last time at Raja....will be good to see him on these shores

well if the guy isnt up to that weight then Dan Green will bring another opponent anything between 63.5 and 65kg! Kieran isnt bothered as he will fight anybody!!! We were told the match was on! This match was proposed because the fight was so close last time. Kieran believed he had 2 and three and the thai had three and four. The first was even.

As most of you know the thais fight higher weight opponents all the time!!! including here in the UK at most of the shows I have been to!!! Tawn was Thailand ranked last year at 61kg. Kieran can get to 63.5kg. If that isnt enough then we will simply find somebody else to bring over. Another name I put forwards was the Thai that beat Cadden for WMC world title last year or someone like Big Ben.

I believe it was a close bout alan, thats why it would be soooo god to see again.

true, we all know thai's normally give weight away, but this doesnt take anything away from the fight!

The Thai that won the WMC title last year fights at 59-61kgs, and it was for the 61kgs world title....hence having to be in thailand for 3 months to get to that weight! :)

looks like a cracking show!

are well that ones out as well then!! Kieran really wants to fight at about 63.5kg and will go to 65kg max. Many times he has had to give weight in the opposite direction especially against Buakow, Tijarti etc. It seems that the Tawn fight is on as far as we know but we will have to see. I think Big Ben would be a good fight also as he fought Tijarti last year in amsterdam full rules although that was at 67kg! He fights at 63.5kg aswell. There are loads of thais at Lumpinee and Raja that are shit hot to fight anyway and Kieran would rather fight one of the stadium fighters in the top 20 at there right weight then a thai over his weight or age which we often see.


He should be rematching Tijarti this year hopefully in Dubai! He also wants to fight Kaoponlek which is also on the cards.Unfortunately he was unavailable for August. He will however return to Thailand later this year cos as you know the fights are thick and fast there!!! Fights in the UK at a class are few and far between if you wanna fight every month.

i doubt tawn will struggle to get his weight up for the fight the lazy git aint been in the gym for 3 months or summat lol......he is takin the fight though so should be fun.

Alan, theres loadsa fights we WOULD like,...but at the end of the day KK is a professional fighter and will fight anyone infront of him. Pontificating about big names at Raja and Lumpinee wont make the matches happen any easier... let the promoters worry about that one!

I am sure whoever they bring over, whether from Thailand or Europe, they will be top class and in line with Keirons ability!

good luck, and I am sure there will be some other matches to worry about in the meantime! :)

chokdee

im not worried about it and am working with the promoter regarding matches and the best fighters we can get.There are loads of fights we like and will get! Yes Kieran will fight all and sundry but we prefer the more marketable names with the big fight records and at the right weight etc at this stage in his career. We dont really care about titles or politics just the fights especially after 70 fights. The next matches for showers and Kieran will be tough ones against these Russians after that who knows whats in stall for them.

Ah thats cleared it up, soz alan i was just wondering if it was Tawn, didn't understand the full thai name that was put up, i only no him as Tawn which is why i asked. Any thai that they can bring over whether its stadium level or just breaking into the stadiums will be a good match for Kieran, it'll be good to see him fighting back in the UK again. He not got any plans to go back out there any time soon??

Ah the return of young Mr Keddle ..... AL when you get a min ring me

speak of the devil and he will return.................thawn returned to the gym today after 2and a half months off still only weighing 63 and still in miles better shape than i will ever be. dont know how hes kept himself like that. he then proceeded to mah me and jordan all over the place in the clinch lol

mah was meant to say mash

Good call, take that arse donkeys.

like that is it howson wait til i get back your goin down. he he

I can imagine mate, jord showed me some footage on his phone of you on pads, and well lets just say i will not be your pad partner anymore when you get back as i am complete shite compared to what your getting put through out there, i like how you was finishing the last minute and a half of the round with 10 and 12 ounch combo's and wasn't even breathing heavy?? idve passed out. Looking very strong and fast i like it.

Is there any more news of this show?

here is a prelimimary poster for the show

thawn has dissapeared from the gym again he was recently stopped in a country fight not sure if his heart is in it anymore which is a shame cos he has great potential cant see him fighting in england now.

Jomhod v Wakeling predictions???

Wakeling, Johmod is done now i think, the legend needs to stop otherwise a lot of people will only remember him for what he has done recently and that that he was/is one of the greatest ever fighters. Looking forward to Damien and Paulo aswell, think Damien will be too strong though, as i found out the other week he is back with a BANG...

there is an older guy that trains at jitti's who has had quite a few fights and is about 64kgs, apparently a name in his day....maybe he could go instead??? :)

lol beag keep him locked away in jittis i dont wish that upon anyone.
wakeling will mash jomhod down based on recent performances. if jomhod tries to take the piss with steve like he does with some opponents he may get hurt

i dont think johmod is done at all. yes he is 35 and past the best but upto his recent loss his record is unreal. It will still be a great fight for stephen to fight this legend so lets not look away from this. Many of the brits fight thais that are past their best and over their weight but this guy is a legend with 10 world titles and lets face it the recent loss to Buakow is the only reason for people saying that Johmod is finished. If this is the case then Pajunsuk or Buakow are good alternatives depending upon costs.

As for Kieran he will fight another top contender from another country if
nececcesary not some one that can just fill in thats a bit older! The only reason we asked about Thawn was because the fight was close and we thought it was our fight. Apart from that we will be happy to get another top contender/legend like Sarmkor or Johmod thanks. Dan Green (the promoter) will take care of this after all he is promoting it and we are fighting on it.

oohhh not again!!!!!

What a show, wish I could see this one!!!

alan do you read other forums if so you will realise why people think jomhod is done....he has been fighting less than stella opponents recently to say the least and against steve hes gonna get hurt. simple as.

Jomhod's recent loss to Buakow only shows that he has fallen behind the top Thais and stadium fighters and I think its a bit unfair on him and on Dans show to say that he's "shot" or "past it" just because of that.

Jomhod is a legend and it will be great to see him fight in this country and he will be a real test for Steven and it will be a great fight.

As far as Thawn is concerned its up to Jitti and Dan (and of course Kieren and Alan) to sort things out between them. The show is a long way off and Thawn is a very talented fighter. Its a pity to write this fight off prematurely.

Please lets stop this before it even starts.

Well done to Dan on putting this show together.

Are the tickets on sale now?

"alan keddle writes:

i dont think johmod is done at all. yes he is 35 and past the best but upto his recent loss his record is unreal. It will still be a great fight for stephen to fight this legend so lets not look away from this. Many of the brits fight thais that are past their best and over their weight but this guy is a legend with 10 world titles and lets face it the recent loss to Buakow is the only reason for people saying that Johmod is finished."

Correct.....And if a loss to Buakaw means you're finished, then there would barely be any fighters existing today in that weight class.

In the past 3 years, Jomhod has fought & beaten Ole Laursen, Wanlop Sitpholek, Arslan Magomedov, and Chris Van Venrooij. Not the greatest fighters who ever lived, but if anyone calls those fighters sub-par then you have unreal standards.

If one was to say Kozo Takeda is finished, that I would agree with. But with Takeda, I believe it's a mixture of him fighting in a higher weight class along with being past his best.

bang on farzad!!! i agree totally!! people always look to discredit cos he had a loss recently. Even in that eight man (non full rules) tournament recently I thought he won and was given the descision in fight three against him!! in favour of kas Yakut. I had him winning!!! then he loses to Buakow for the WMC title and people write him off! If stephen wins against Johmod then it will be another great win! the guy is a legend.

you dont fight for world titles if your a bum.

why thanks Richard for the intervention there, agree totally! quite rightly it is up to Dan and Myself to match Kieran and to Jitti to say whether Thawn is fit to fight! We never for other suggestions as we asked specifically for Thawn!

As far as Johmod goes Liam! not only have I watched him for the last twenty years but have witnessed him fight live more than once before you even joined the sport. Recently, in case you didnt see it he got into the final of an eight man tournament and only lost in the final against Yakut in a descision I thought was harsh! If others say he is past it then that is there perogative. My view is that he is far from past it. He has notched up win after win including right upto recently. Agreed he is past stadium best but then most thais outside of the stadiums are! do not assume that I dont read other sites because i think he is still world class. Typical really. If Wakeling wins then it will be because of his class and ability not because Johmod is past it. Johmod is only the same age as many current circuit fighters including Showers and Pete Crooke!

Alan That's an unfair dig at Liam for length of time he's been in the sport. I bet he can't even remember 6 years ago haha

If all these big names do come and the fights are made there is £1000 here for a sponsorship for Kick Boxing Shop. Put me a DECENT package together and we can get down to the detail nearer the time.

true nige Liam cant remember 6 minutes ago the gaylord.lol

two of the main fighters on this show came together recently for a photo session/workout.

two of the main fighters on this show came together recently for a photo session/workout.

two of the main fighters on this show came together recently for a photo session/workout.

two of the main fighters on this show came together recently for a photo session/workout.

They are not coming to play...........oh my god.

Jomhods experience v Wakelings youth this is a good fight,losing v Bukoaw is a big loss though as it was real clinical stoppage but lets just all go watch it and buzz off these top guys battering each other plus i can show my dancing skills.

damn I may have to fly back for that Vinny! :)

no dancing from me im from the old school of "cant dance wont dance"

I am going to stick my neck out and challenge Vinny to a dance-off.

It will be like watching Graham Norton and Keith Chegwin on come dancing!

Am camp as you like...i am defo Norton.

good to here jomhod is training properly should make for a great fight...good luck to steve i think he still will take the victory regardless.

Correct me if im wrong but didnt Kieren Keddle fight Baukow all paded up in an exhibition!!!

Yes, if i remember correctly it was an exhibition for the olympic board to try and get muay thai into the olympics..
And i belive it was padded to demonstrate how it would be done at the olympics.. Padded, the same way as am boxing..

I think Dave Pacquette has an unfair advantage against his thai opponent!!!!

Just look at the size of his left hand! He could have someones eye out with that finger!

LOL

This looks like being a top show!!! I will try and make a trip south for this one.

FB'Slim

left leg V left large index finger!!!!!

ha ha ha
well spotted FATBOY!

Noi - I met an old school mate of yours (well not sure if he was a mate) on a corporate event last week...........

we got on the subject of Thai Boxing and he mentioned that a kid in his school had done quite well and low and behold it was little OLD you!!

FB'Slim

who was it?
did you get a name/business card? :)

Scottish lad called Darren Travers.........got his email addy if you want it, mail me if you do.

FB'Slim

forget his left finger its his right forearm id be worried about.

yeah, Daz is a decent lad. He did a bit of taekwondo in his time as well...bet he didnt tell ya that!
Say hi next time you see him.

Hi everyone, I hope the fight with Johmod is as easy as you say. Whith him actually going back to Thailand to train for three months for this fight and his skill and expereance, I think it is going to be a war. Also I would love to end up sharing a ring with Buakow, Lamsongkram, and Pajolsuk, the last three on my dream list, but I do need to earn some money on the way to finance training, so if you want to help buy your tickets for my fights from me, and with better purses I will get ready and bring all these fights home to England for you all to see live. Or if there are any sponsors out there get in touch.

Good luck Steven.

ive watched lamsongkram fight a few times and i think steven will beat him by K0.....skarborsky KOed him and jean is only a 64kiloish fighter really and also i watched him fight adam jittigym when it was only adams 2nd fight and lamsongkram was current raja champ (lol) and once again saw weakness that steven would exploit......i think steven will come through this fight and hopefully buakow lamsongkram and pajonsuk will await him.....good luck mate

Good luck Steve.

You are right to take Jomod seriously (along with anyone else you step into the ring with); he is strong and very very experienced and if he takes a fight seriously (which he appears to be doing) he has the potential to give anyone in the world a hard fight.

There is a brilliant line-up for this show and I hope lots of people support the show and give you and the other British fighters their full support. You have done your dad, your gym and the country proud with your recent performances and attitude; win or lose I am sure you will be an even better fighter for having shared the ring with this calibre of fighter (and the others on your wish list).

Good Luck Steve hope training going well out there mate, looking forward to the fight as always. Getting my tickets on monday from ya dad hopefully 10 maybe more. You bringing Yak (fairtex) back again?? hes funny.

Adam 'the cabbie'

nice post steve, i dont think johmod will war but he is v.smart and ur rite if training in thailand ud expect him to be sharp, think it will be a good close fight. agree with liam i think steve would stop that guy but buakow would be tough as would yodsaenklai and pajo is strong altho not as sharp as buakow and yod. good luck steve if theres an english win against a thai on the show my money would be on you.

Steve will you drop me an email asap please mate?? my add is andyhowsonbc@yahoo.co.uk just wana chat wiv you about tickets for the show, i think there's a few of us coming down to watch ya so will get tickets off you to help you out cash wise mate. Get in touch asap then. As far as the fight goes i hope trainings going well? you always put on a top class performance so no worries for you there, it's gunna be good to see Jomhod fighting over here as he is one of my fav ever fighters, when i said earlier on in the thread he was done i was meaning in the main stadiums in Thailand due to his age etc,etc. But now he's been back in Thailand training for the fight im sure he is gunna be at his best so good luck mate, im looking forward to it. And i agree with Liam if there is gunna be a English man beating a Thai on the show id out my house on it been you. Talk to you soon mate.

Got my tickets last night cant wait for this, anyone got a full line up yet??

Steve - the e-mail address on here doesnt seem to work - could you contact me at alixjames@hotmail.com as I'ld like to get some tickets from you, thanks!

here is a newer more up to date poster of the show.

could be easier fight than you think steve, with all those belts he is leaving a nice gap for a teep! samkors pic always makes my left leg itch lol

Really interesting fight .Since few months i am thinking to come watching that live.with all the things that i have heard i really think that this show will be a banger . The undercard also is very class also with my mates Kieran and the banger richard Barnhil.Good luck to all the fighters in the card .There is also an interview of jomhod here:

http://www.muaythaionline.net/features/jomhodkiatadisakkingoftheringinterview.html

MTO: What was it like fighting Ramon Dekkers?
Jomhod: Easy, Ramon was scared and running away a lot.


hahaha excellent!!

With this show upon us, I just wanted to refresh peoples memories as I'm shocked there haven't been more posts.....predictions, line up changes etc etc ???

atreui: thats how the Thai's see western/dutch MT.

99% of the time thai's wanna "war it out" and go toe to toe! :)

Wakeling Johmod-Draw
Samkor to stop Paquette
Donnelly win points
Fenwick win points
Keddle win ponts

i think it will depend on judging criteria...
if the thai's try and play the thai game, i believe they will lose on points, due to differences/understanding/interpretation of the rules etc...

if samkor just wants to war it out, samkor will win....the guy is unstoppable...did you see the state of his shin after the first round in Holland with that massive split? what did he do? tape it up and carry on kicking for the next 4 rounds....HARD!!!!!
Baa!

if wittyanoi sits on the ropes as he did with liam, KK will win. Wittyanoi will play the fine line and he knows how to exploit the finer points in FTR, but this may be slightly different over here as the judges are not as good/consistant as Raja/Lumpinee judges. KK is more aggressive and will pursue the fight more, and take a points decision (even though wittyanoi will believe he has won)

This is merely my opinion and by no means an attack at Keddles Gym, just an opinion from what I have seen of both fighters....please dont jump down my throat for this!

wakeling V jomhod...too close to call (fight of the night for me)

Havent seen any action from Kaew, for his fight against Damien.

Dont know enough about the other fighters to pass comment....there you go Luckybags...how do you like that! :)

is wittayanoi the won that is meant to be really horrible an dfrustaring to fight because of his awkward style i thik i remeber rob saying this about a thai who fought liam were liam lost points is this the same thai i think rob said his style makes fighters look bad its same person?

yep thats the one Hook, he likes to stay on ropes and let fighter come onto him and hits with counter as they come in.

very fustrating for a fighter like me as i have a come forward style and rely on power and am at the top of my game when my opponent does the same, he wouldnt trade shots with me as cadden said he knows how to win at the stadiums.....Kieran has nothing to worry about at all. he cant box and has no power just sneak which will not be effective with uk judging.

Agree with Rich, think the Wakeling v Jomhod fight will be awesome. Stephen is looking strong and determined, think he will really put on a great fight, Wakeling to win points.

International Superfight - Full Thai Rules
Kieran Keddle (Keddles, England) vs wittayanoi (Thailand) - Keddle Pts

International Superfight - Full Thai Rules
David Pacquette (KO Gym, England) vs Samkor Keatmontep (Thailand) - Samkor KO

Domestic Superfight - Full Thai Rules
Dean White Gym vs Damien Trainor (K-Star) - Dean White Pts

Domestic Superfight - Full Thai Rules
Paul Murat (KO Gym)) vs Richard Barnhill (Nongkee Pahuyuth) - Barnhill Tko

Wakeling one too close to call

So Keddle to win but not really?

Im not fighting keaw now im fighting his older brother who's called Yodsila. From what iv been told he was flyweight champion of Thailand but has moved up weight now. Both fights Keaw & Yodsila train at Muay Thai PLaza 2004 the same as Sarmkor

I know how good Johmod is and what he has acheived in Muaythai, he is a legend but I cannot see anybody on this Earth at this moment in time beating Wakeling ! he has awesome power and great technique and I love watching him. so Wakeling win for me

Keddle Win pts
Trainor win pts
Samkor win (not sure how)
Fenwick win pts
Donnelly win pts

so there you go fellas, a boring night with no KO'S !

why are you trying to start trouble JD?

I have explained that KK will win, and why....so why try and twist words into an insult. Lets not go down this route!

Thaiboxing is about effect, and KK will be stronger and more effective with UK judging....simple as that.

I'm not trying to start trouble but reading your post some points stand out like "the judges are not as good" This may well be true but your post to me looks like, Kieran will win but only becvause it's in England

Blimey Luckybags thats a big statement about no one on earth not beating Wakeling!

I know mate, just think he's mustard.

My girlfriend is not really interested in watching thaiboxing, however, if Kieran or Steven Wakeling are fighting then she is glued ! (before the comments come, yes she fancies and wants to suck them both off yes)

JD: You have to admit that reliability and consistancy of judging in the uk is not up to the standard of lumpinee/Raja...
This is NOT a dig at KK, merely an observation on alot of judging in the uk compared to the stadiums in BKK....thats all.

This may well be academic if KK sparks him in the 1st round!

if wakeling beats Jomhod...what next?

buakow?
yodsanklai?

Buakow v Wakeling would be ledge

of course judging is of a higher standard in Bangkok but your posts still read like Kieran will win but only because it's in the UK. Maybe I've got it wrong but thats how it looks to me

see, this is how you are TRYING to twist my observations.

Wittyanoi knows what the BKK judges are looking for and he knows how to "play up to them"...he doesnt know what UK judges are looking for so wont be able to nick a round by using these tactics.

Just a thought....If KK wins in the UK, maybe have a re-match when KK is back out in BKK...that will be the acid test!

I'm not TRYING to twist anything, just saying it how I see it.

Results are a guessing game its on the day really but enjoy peoples views one thing though its a good en.

Why is it that on these forums people can not just acecpt others opionions???
Noi: I can understand ur point of view!! what i cant understand is why JDs putting words in ur mouth ?? I dont kno either of u , but from what i have read on this forum over the years., it seams like any time these bad co guys give their honest opions, people jump on them trying to accuse them of slander., when all they are saying is what they think., would u rather they just lie in order to please the masses??

And remember kids always proof read b4 u post!! bad spelling can get the better of u!!

Back to the subject.........Jomhod is fighting in the UK yeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaa!Jomhod is also fighting his last fight ever so get down there and see a pure muay thai legend!

kieran could well win by KO my guess will be he will have a fair bit of weight on vittayanoi with day before weigh etc....i watched him fight at raja last month and he looked small think that was at 62. i aint the biggest fighter so with kierans height he could well stop him.

Anyway I'm looking forward to it, looks like it will be a top show. Well done Dan G for putting it on!

lol Luckybags, i just see your girlfriend coment

I agree with the comment above whereby any of the lads from bad co say anything, someone jumps on them. This is a public forum, where opinions and views are allowed to be aired and discussed. Plus, lets be honest I'd value the opinion of lads who fight from a club with a stable of world class fighters and coach. So lets take on board opinions and views and discuss them sensibly.

Looks like it's going to be an quality show.

I presume you'll be filming this Corin?

noi666 writes:
if wakeling beats Jomhod...what next?

buakow?
yodsanklai?


Wakeling 4 K-1 max 2007!

kieran will win on points exactly the same in Thailand as he would in England. Of all the brits he knows the game very well as he has spent more than 2 years in total there and been fighting full rules since 1998 including Raja, Lumpinee, UBc etc. He is there now! The judging will be wmc affiliated as it is a MAD. wmc world title. I think he has done the acid test with plenty of wins in Thailand. Nothing will be in his favour with the judging on this one. I would have him winning at either Thailand or here! and thats my opinion. and thats from another trainer with world class fighters and coaches where jd is from!

Ouch! I agree totally, I'm told you were a cracking fighter in your day and you've also schooled some top class fighters, your opinion is welcome and valued. Thats what I like about Ax, being able to get the frank and honest opinions of some of the top exponents in the art. And lets be honest, when people give their opinions, it's exactly that and there will always be difference of opinions and viewpoints. If everyone agreed with what everyone else did and said in life it'd be a pretty bloody boring life!

I completely agree

I completely disagree.



lol

I agree to disagree with the agreement!
:)

I also disagree with what was agreed and disagreed above and if I can't agree with myself then I am screwed. Anyone agree?

you can also get tickets at lastminute.com

lastminute Aug 19th

watched buakow s fight with jomhod on thai tv last night ouch! he still looked dangerous though before gettin stopped and was throwing lots of elbows which is prob what he will try do with steve to get rid of him early. if the fight goes past the 3rd though steve all the way as jomhod looked to be blowing a bit against buakow in the 2nd.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wKskpohkUg

Johmod vs Buakow

rob and liam or anyone in thaialnd who would youre money be on for this fight i have never seen nong o fight just herd of hes wicked with good right kick i seen seanchai abiout 5 fights he amazing

wrong thread durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr lol

Just watched it myself Liam, think you're right mate, unless he catches Steve with some really special elbows then I would go with Steve all the way (as I have said in previous posts)

Buakow vs Steve is the fight id most like to see

take nothing away from this show as I could still be wrong and even if this fight wasnt on it would still be a World class lineup, id just really like to see Steve in his prime vs Buakow in his

Thanks

all the best to the english lads fighting not an easy nights work for any of you.

Received our tickets today.

This will be a great show, good luck ENGLAND!

is there another fight to replace the marut v barnhill one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sjhg5W5Rzd8

Just saw this on YouTube.



Good luck to all fighters.
Hotel booked
Tickets ordered.
Cant wait to see this!

Best of luck to Ki and Becca and whoever else is fighting from Keddles!

are all fights for muaythai against drugs titles or just kierans....also read on the wmc website kieran fought a thai called rungsiam. how did that fight go i understand kieran lost on pts but am curious how the fight went as i have been matched with him before.

All the Thai fighters left Bangkok o.k today at midday arriving this evening in London. Went over toMuaythaiplaza yesterday to drop passports, tickets off and caught a glimpse of Jomhod working out on pads, from what I saw her looked in good shape and he was giving his padman a hard time.
Good luck to everyone involved

Has anyone got a full line up yet? Gonna be a great night good luck to everyone and if anyone fancy a water :P we going to Tiger tiger after

Will this fight be televised at anytime or when will the first hilights be shown? Also does Steven have to win this fight to be able to get into the ring with Buakow?

Good luck to all the UK fighters, I am sure this will be a great night and I wish I was able to be there.

I will certainly buy a DVD if there is one after.

Cheers,
FB'Slim

Good luck to all fighters involved i wont be there because of other commitments so i wish you all luck!

Good luck to all fighters, see you there......

Any one know the FULL card ?

looking forward to this now !

good luck england....do me a favour kieran and KO wittayanoi he annoyed me to hell in the last fight with all his moving around and not stayin in one place so i could hit him.........also just been told in the programme it says wittaynois fight record then next to that "beaten liam harrison" also in the press release it mentioned how wittayanoi had beaten me and was my nemisis? wtf. i was just curious why dan green is trying to make a big deal out of that. using my name to try to promote kierans and then still have the cheek to come over to me at the leeds show and say "alright liam". like nothing was wrong. oooh thats why cause hes a smarmy two faced little wanker its plain to see to everyone why wittayanoi was brought to the uk to fight.....however on a different note well done for putting on a top show.


p.s GO FANYUN.

Any results/pics yet?

just heard m.wakeling k.o.d richard jones 1st rond i think by left hook

just heard m.wakeling k.o.d richard jones 1st round i think by left hook

Hi Keep us informed Scooby. I couldn't get up there today. Gutted!

Trainor loss pts, Samkor win points

On another note, Richard Jones must retire! he has been ko'd in his last six or seven fights now, if this was boxing he would be retired, he is a danger to himself and the sport. If I upset anyone withthis post I appologise, but it's been mentioned beofre and no notice has been taken. Stroner words are called for!!!!!!!!!

keep the results comin

keep the results comin

Rich Jones was a friend and a sparring partner in the past,if he had just been stopped by maby cuts or body shots i would not agree but it seems he has a problem with head shots,a real shame im maby on your side on this one Daz,i like Rich as a fighter and in the past as a friend and camp member i hope he heads the rite way.

Dave been on ax too long he he

keiran got a draw but should of won i`ve been told dont know why as werent there i wish i could of gone myself to watch shame about trainor he`s a very strong fighter the thai was rated highly so hopefully trainor will come away with some experience making him better

Jomhod???????

jomhod lose points close jomhod definitely trained hard for fight and fought really well with briliant low kicks landing against wakeling but wakeling used fantastic elbows and dropped him in first with a huge elbow that cut jomhod and sounded like he was with hit with a baseball bat it was a close fight but wakeling did enough to win especially with 8 count n first round wakeling very impressive
ill never no how jomhod got up so quck from elbow i saw his eyes roll back as he fell but as soon as he hit canvas he gt up straight away it was great to see legends like samkor and jomhod in acion in england a great show

Great win for Wakeling..........does this make him U.K number 1????

Just home from the show .All in all a good show very well attended , nice venue some outstanding fights so well done Dan he took a huge risk but it paid off Congratulations to Steven wakeling.

It is not often I contribute to the forum but on this occasion I found the judging of some of the fights somewhat dubious to say the least. sour grapes I hear you say ,a trainer who is not objective . I do not think so .

I refer to David Pacquets fight not to mention Keiran.One judge gave all five rounds to David the other two judges scored in favour of Samkor.Samkor was a amazing fighter and a true legend in Muay Thai. however that was then and this is now .In my humble opinion David cut samkor (unlucky the fight was not stopped and proceeded to dominate the fight in every sense balance, effect, ring craft etc...

So why the result . I was sitting next to one judge who was in orr of the great samkor .why not score the fight on the fight not the name.His (samkor) time has come and gone. The other judge had a hidden agenda . Politics

what a bad taste it leaves in my mouth to explain to a world class fighters that he won the fight in the ring but lost to the petty politics that hold this great art back.


The argument that we not understand the criteria of judging just does not hold up. After a life time around Muay Thai.We might miss the odd move to infulence a Bkk judge "if you want to understand judging study the gamblers in the stadium as the fight odds are adjusted.


The judges got it right at least on the Damien Trainor and Steven wakeling fights.

Just got back from the show. Great line up with great domestic fighters against strong opposition.

Well done to Jay Woodham, nice performance.

Michael Wakeling looked very sharp again. Can't wait to see him fight soon again. Well done to Steve Wakeling who has achieved another great thing. Well done to the Scorpions camp!

After watching the fight I spoke to a person in the know when it comes to judging (thanks mate!) and gained clarification on the Samkor fight. Pacquette gave a good account of himself which was nice to see and I look forward to the fight against Dickes.

who was judging? how can 1 judge score all 5 to one fighter and the others to another, dave will have had to have bashed samkor good in the 1st 2 to get them rounds given to him. sounds like england all did well...nice one

Congrats to Steve Wakeling. Adrian Pang and I were at Fairtex Pattaya earlier this month and got to know Steve and Mike better. Really down to earth blokes too. He looks to be going from strength to strength.

Yeah well done England. Love to see Wakeling have a crack against Buakow next!

I judged all the second half of the show last night which I think was a great show with some excellent fights. I wanted all the English fighters to win last night as I like and respect all of them as people and fighters. Any person who disagreed with any of the Thailand V England decisions can choose to read this with an open mind or with their own pre-conceived ideas on the reasons for the decisions made. I am not writing this not to start an argument or upset anyone, but because if it is not said I believe British MuayThai will be held back on an international level.

I watched last night with pride as our fighters fought bravely and skilfully against some very big names in the sport; some in fact who genuinely deserve the title legends of the sport. What I also saw the UK has a real chance now to rise even higher on the world scene. There were some excellent performances last night from a range of different gyms. Brave and skilled performances from with our lads who nobody could deny were really trying to win with everything they had. The difference in some of those fights was that some of the fighters knew what they had to do to win and others didn’t.

Bill, I know I might not be very popular with you or Dave at the moment and I do understand why. I know you both thought Dave won the fight and I also understand why you both thought that. Whatever your feelings are towards me I really do like and respect you both and I was impressed with Dave’s performance particularly in round two. However, you are wrong to say Craig O’Flynn (the judge you were sitting next to) vision was clouded by the reputation of Samkor or the respect he might have for him as a fighter. On every single fight Craig and me scored the fights exactly the same round for round. This was not because we colluded nor did either of us have any political interest in particular fighters winning (something I heard mentioned at ringside). We judge the fights the same because, independently, we have gained knowledge on scoring in MuayThai from Thailand over many years and the system is so consistent it produces that type of consistency in scoring.


The scoring for the fight was as follows (from memory which could be a little flawed). The first round Dave edged but not enough to win by a clear point. He was busy but although he through lots of techniques didn’t score with that many of them. His leg kicks didn’t score much at all in the fight as any Samkor took he stayed solid and his balance was never disturbed. Equally although some punches connected cleanly many were taken on the cross arm block of Samkor and had little effect. In round two Dave actual began to improve his scoring with a body kick or two and held strong in the clinch. Then he almost won the fight hitting Samkor with a beautiful elbow, which I am sure shocked and surprised him. It was a big cut but not in a dangerous place or running in the eye and the doctor let the fight continue. Samkor stormed back at Dave but had no time to equal the scoring in that round so Dave was a clear point ahead going into the third. Samkor knew if he didn’t turn the fight around in the third he would probably lose the fight; he knew he was behind at that point and that Dave was physically very strong and unlikely to get tired quickly. Samkor had a big third round scoring well with body kicks. Some observers may say that some of the kicks landed on Dave’s upper arm and not cleanly on the body. This is true, but they score if the arm is pushed onto the body. In fact if they also cause the fighter to move they score just as well as a kick landing cleanly on the body. Dave regrouped himself in the fourth and matched Samkor getting a draw. So going into the last Samkor was slightly ahead with his big third round, but Dave could have certainly still won the fight. Samkor knew he was a head and played a waiting game and countered Dave with kicks as he tried to attack increasing his lead; just as he has no doubt done many times before and many other boxers do in Thailand every night in Bangkok’s stadiums. So Samkor won by a couple of rounds against a brave, strong and skilful Dave Pacquette. The difference in this fight wasn’t necessarily skill of strength it was an understanding how to win in the game of MuayThai; something Samkor did very well and Dave didn’t. So Dave and Bill you can continue to believe you won the fight and change nothing or you can try to understand why you didn’t win under MuayThai scoring criteria and progress internationally, possibly even to the greatest heights.

In a similar way Kieran didn’t win the fight, he got a draw. He was losing going into to the last. He was behind going into the fourth and need to win both rounds 4 and 5 to ensure victory. He drew the fourth so still could have won with a very big last round. He won the last round but not by a big enough margin to win the fight. Had he managed to throw his opponent down or kick him off his feet, or unleashed continuous unanswered body kicks he would have won. However, it was a draw and not a win. Again I really like Kieran and would love him to have won but he didn’t he got a draw.

For me Damien is a vastly improved fighter. I have watched him fight since he was a boy and always liked him (although I am not sure he knew that because I have spoken out against some decisions he has been awarded in the past) I just like his style even more now. Damien understands MuayThai very well indeed, has great skills and was very sharp for this fight. However, his opponent was very strong and skilful indeed. I think formally ranked very highly at Lumpinee and hit Damien with knees that would have made most fighters not want to come out to fight another round. Damien fought bravely and skilfully but he knew he was losing the fight and had to do something to get back into the fight. He did come back well, but not enough to overtake his Thai opponent and unfortunately by round five both the Thai and Damien knew the result. If Damien couldn’t get a knock out or eight count both boxers knew Damien would lose. Damien did shake his opponent with his trademark very hard and sharp punches knocking his opponent’s head back, but the Thai knew he only had to protect his points.

Steve fought brilliantly. He dropped Jomod with beautiful elbow and was two points ahead going into the second. Jomod came back in the second to win that round (if I remember correctly, he certainly won one round very clearly early on kicking Steve off his feet a couple of time and drew another). Steve (and his corner) did an excellent job of monitoring scoring and maintaining his lead in the later rounds; blocking the vast majority of Jomod’s potentially high scoring body kicks and matching all Jomod’s scoring techniques. Steve was always dangerous with elbows and matched Jomod knee for knee in the clinch. At one point he was a couple of knee’s behind in one round but wasted no time in equalising with a body kick and straight knee. I have never really had a conversation with Steve but watching him I believe he understands the Muaythai game very, very well. He was two points ahead going into the last and could have backed to the ropes and teeped his way to victory. He didn’t, instead trying to win by elbow KO. He did win the round clearly with some nice body kicks.

A great show…I hope all British fighters can take heart from their performances and learn from them. Every fighter has the chance to use this as a stepping stone into a bright future; I hope they all take that chance.

sounds like it was a brilliant show.
any one have the full results?

the don has spoken

You need a degree for scoring and two degrees knowing how to score as a fighter.haha It's well explained by Tony but it will take a long time for all of the UK to get to grips with how to win a Muay Thai fight. It's just a cat and mouse game not a brute strength thing!!!

Well Tony,
Thank you for that detailed account.I disagree with you At no time did Samkor land a telling shot Dave was completly unmarked and unfazed through out the fight. David had a far Higher work rate.He conrolled the fight was balanced and the aggressor his boxing skills and elbows opened samkor up and had a telling effect (in particular the uppercut and spear elbow).


David neutralized samkor There was no advantage to either fighter in the clinch . David landed numerous Effective elbows the cut was deep and I seen a lot of fights stopped on less.

samkor was trying to lure david in to him in the final round knowing he was having no success . David stuck to the fight plan and maintained the distance and incresed the pressure and tempo to dominate the fight.

So we are strongly divided on how we score Muay Thai.

My Proffesional fighters that live and breath Muay Thai all day every day watching stadium fights and are schooled in the knowledge that you must understand the rules to win the fight are reading the wrong rule book sorry I do not except that I believe one of us is wrong so who is it?


This a objective so let us forget personalites and look at principles, we are both using the same critera (I think for scoring ).I consider elbows opening a deep cut effective I consider superior ring craft (the use of lateral motion and body movement to nullify a opponent effective, ). Not being off balanced or controlled effective , Forcing the pace effective . landing several jumping elbows and sneaking in spear elbows to control and dominate the fight, David`s low kicks where use to disrupt and nullify samkors kicks effective!


If this was two Thai fighters in BKK stadium I am certain David hands would have gone up (as I would have seen the odds in his favour by the gamblers ringside ).

I cannot speak for anyone else ,However many other full time proffesionals trainers expressed similar views to myself.

This is my view hard to be objective to be honest so anyone else ringside?

well done to jay woodham you did really well and made the boss man and myself proud of that win against a big strong fighter in steve jones, from a big gym. we thought it was all over in the 3rd when he he was getting an 8 count but steve came back looking for that knock out punch, but Jay stuck to his guns and continued to dominate the fight and win - well done! Enjoy your holiday mate. Jez, Mungkorn Dam.

Sorry to say it but in the interest of having decent decisions on decent shows like the one last night whoever the 3rd judge was shouldnt have been there, im not sure if he misunderstands the criteria or is scared to judge against home fighters but he even managed to give the fight to damian trainor as that was a split decision, i like damian and kstar and steve logan a lot but damian would be the first to admit he lost big, should really have been counted when dropped by knees if the referreing was quicker and wasnt really himself in that fight. the same official also managed to misjudge the girls title fight and the samkor fight, what a nightmare. Have seen Craig as an official i Ireland and over there he is second to none judging and definitely one of the top in the UK.

Well done to Jay Woodham, kept working away and steve looked v.tired possibly from losing so much weight? possibly from the pressure of woodham, nice fight.

Samkor fight was a clear win but not as easy as most expected for Samkor, dave was strong and very fit but didnt block the body kicks and was off balanced a lot.

Would like to see the keddle fight again as it was very close too close for me to call on the night and the thai was quite boring to be honest.

Wakeling was a legend very big and dangerous with the elbow, thought this would be a hard fight for jomhod but after getting deced in the 1st with that massive elbow think jomhod did well to make it a close(ish) fight, wakeling using nice body kick and knee in later rounds to up the scoring very clever. Think jomhods gameplan was to hack away at the legs which is good if you stop them but can leave u behind on pts. Would like to see wakeling v Pajonsuk or Drago or Sato before he fought someone like Yodsaenklai or Buakow as really he hasnt had that many fights and deserves to get a few more under his belt and defo deserves some good paydays after seeing this confirms wakeling way too good for a JWP rematch.

Dazza agree about richard jones nice lad but the brain has been shaken too many times now maybe should think about helping pele with the coachig etc as would be a shame to lose him from the sport.

If the samkor fight was at stadium i think dave might have had a warning for the amount of jumping about the place, i dont want to say running or dancing as this wasnt the case but when you get kicked and youre on the back foot and dont answer with a counter strongly disadvantages you on the cards. thats nothing political aginst dave or ko as have never spoken to either and think there would only be a handful of 70kg fighters out there in uk now who could beat paquette and doubt any could stop him, very strong and fit.

What were the weights like for the fights, interested to know if the Thai's gave away much weight.

Full results anyone, would be cool!

I was at the show and I thought the Samkor decision was the correct one. David didn't really throw any kicks at all during the fight. And this was due to the fact that Samkor blocked one of his kicks in the first round and it hurt David's shin. Should be a good fight with David and Michael Dicks, David did really well against a legend but just not enough. Kieren's fight ending in a draw was correct as well.

samkor fight 69.9kg
jomhod fight 72.5kg
keddle fight 63.5kg

only according to program though

samkor fight 69.9kg
jomhod fight 72.5kg
keddle fight 63.5kg

only according to program though

thaisoon17 mate i agree i lost the fight clearly but an eight count wasnt deserved in the 3rd (i think it was the 3rd) it wasnt a clever move in the clinch but it got me out but i wont be doin it again lol, also pele did give me an eight count.

To me the first 2 rounds were even, the 3rd the thai won in a big way even without the eight count, i feel the 4th was even as i came back, but it wasnt enough to get the fight back in my corner so as Tony stated earlier i was losing going into the 5th. i knew this and the thai knew as he stopped progressing forward and stayed back which would have been nice if he'd of done that throughout the fight as it gave me a chance to catch him with some good shots but still not enough to switch the obvious decision. I know Mr pong well (his manager) and he knows me i already knew what the fight would be like, when i punched he'd elbow me (which he did and cut me in the 1st) and clinch me. After the fight i was told that yoksila was ranked No1 in lumpinee 15months ago so a great fight for me to have, also great that yes i lost convincingly but i wasnt out of my depth.

I think its great now that the UK have the calibre of boxers that can compete with the stadium boxers of Thailand

spot on damian i heard the little thai was top class and to be honest maybe not 10 years ago but on the day yesterday he ws the best thai on the show by far. Its good that thais know theyve got a fight when they come to the uk now ur right, good luck with your next 1 mate.

""And this was due to the fact that Samkor blocked one of his kicks in the first round and it hurt David's shin""

That's strage as I went home with david and he never mentioned that? he didn't have a mark on him. I may be biased and the fact that I'd had gallons of lager may heve effected my Judgement but I thought David just nicked it. David is a winner either way; he fought a legend and gave a superb account of himself.

I also thought Keiran had just done enough to win!

Steven Wakeling is the man; superb performance. Would love to see Steven v Peter Crooke; FTR?


Either way it was a really enjoyable night and it was great to see legends like Johmod and Samkor in the UK; well done Dan !

I especially enjoyed Dan's jeans, trainers, shirt, jacket and tie combo - A new fashion in the making me thinks !

WOW!!!!!!! wot a show pure calss fights. mr steven wakeling is a pure world class fighter he moves out the way of punches and elbows superbly it must be so hard to hit him. i was ring side for that fight and wen he smashed jomhod wiv that elbow u heard it bang in. QAULITY!!!!!! i didnt see michaels fight but well done to u mate.
steven jones is a tough lad i could feel how strong he was wen we clinched and a couple of time that big right hand glansed past me if it would of hit me it would of toook my head clean off. well done to dan green shiw was excellent!!!!!!!

does any1 no full results yet?

Bill, there are a number of things I agree with you on. I agree both boxers were equal in the clinch, I don't think Dave was in trouble during the fight or was marked or fazed by anything, and completely agree that Dave scored with a great elbow in the second. I also agree we must be seeing fights very differently.

I am sure we can both quote Boxing of Board of Sport Rules and scoring criteria but I don't think that will add much to this debate because it is the interpretation of those rules that is important in determining the winner; the written rules are open to widely differing interpretations.

This is scoring in a nut shell:

70% of determining the winner of a fight is the number of clean blows landed with power and accuracy whether the scoring fighter is moving forwards, backwards, sideways, back against the ropes or counter fighting.

20% of determining the winner of a fight is considering who dominates with MuayThai skills controlling the action so that their opponent can’t perform to perform.

10% of determining the winner of a fight is considering who forces the action, particularly if one boxer only runs away

However, when considering the above the following needs to be noted:

• Primary scoring weapons are body kicks and knees particularly if they are delivered with good timing (if a boxer is unbalanced first or as a result of the kick or knee all the better). Body kicks score even when landing on the arms but not if they are blocked. A fighter can move backwards, sideward or forward as long as they are landing cleanly.

• Teeps that make an opponent lose position also score well particularly if they are well timed and cause significant loss of position.

• Staying balanced, maintaining a good stance (position) and staying on your feet is really important in not getting scored upon.

• Low kicks and punches score (equally to anything else if they drop someone) but these techniques need to show some effect or damage to equal the score of body kicks and knees.

• Elbows score as well as punches do (they have to cut an opponent, stagger an opponent or cause them to lose position or show they are hurt to score really very well). If a fighter is dropped by an elbow it is equal to any other technique a fighter is dropped by.


Andy C I agree with you mate…you were biased and the fact that you’d had gallons of lager did influence your judgement LOL. Seriously I totally agree Dave is a winner (even though I think he lost the fight); he did fight a legend and did give a superb account of himself.

How did Becca Donelly get on anyone???

She lost on a close points decision Lucy. Started strong but the dutch girl finshed stronger in the later rounds. Great battle and a great performance from Becca. I am sure she will be back.

Thanks to Tony Myers for that excellent explanation which apply to all fighters except those from London. If the fighter is from London the correct decision is deemed to be what the fighters trainer thinks it is.

That's it Peter; you're a genius!

I've been involved (trained/fan, etc) with Muay Thai for years and stil find it hard to grasp some of the finer aspects of judging (and don't mind admitting it). To be brutally frank some of them don't make logical sense to me. But it is what it is and I accept that; and love the sport. Yesterdays show just reinforced that; was a superb show with great fighters and a good atmosphere.

But if people don't agree with a decision they have the right to voice that; regardles of where they're from.

well done damien ive spoke to at keast 4 people and they all said your opponent was the best on the night and most aggressive so you will have learnt a great deal from that mate. when we spoke before i remember you telling me you knew what he was gonna do but when a top stadium thai has got hold of you its hard to do anything really.

David worked to a fight plan ,he was not on the back foot from Samkors kicks but was working on his inside lead leg and driving through his guard with jab and uppercuts and elbows. David did his home work and executed his fight plan almost to the tee.

David was not hurt or even ruffled at any stage ,just upset he did not secure a stoppage.

As for the jump elbow and knees of course that is not a legimate Muay Thai move. A quality fighter is confident and skilled enough to execute variations.

English Muay Thai is on the up and the future looks bright however the fall out from this show may cause a huge rift.

we are not talking about a small group but major full time gyms and promotors of Muay Thai that have been instrumental in the growth and development of Muay Thai in england.

On a related subject.I was shocked to see a non officals siting ringside and engaging in conversation through out a fight with a judge( whilst he was judging ). Judges should remain neutral and inpartial. Not open to influence or distraction in my book but maybe i am reading a different book !

Thanks to Tony Myers for that excellent explanation which apply to all fighters except those from London. If the fighter is from London the correct decision is deemed to be what the fighters trainer thinks it is.

Thanks to Tony Myers for that excellent explanation which apply to all fighters except those from London. If the fighter is from London the correct decision is deemed to be what the fighters trainer thinks it is.

Bill, I agree British MuayThai is on the up and the future looks bright; very bright. However, I fail to see why there needs to be any fall out after this show.

All I think we need to do is clarify our coaches and fighter's understanding of scoring. Those techniques you describe can score but not enough to overturn the other things done in this particular fight. If the jumping elbow doesn't cause damage or have effect, it is not a special score. Dave didn't have to back up to be scored on by kicks. However, if Dave had kicked Samkor over with inside low kicks as he kicked his body he would have scored.

I am happy to send a tape of the fights in question to a top Rajadamnern referee and ask him to give his opinion on the fights if it will make you happier. If we (me and Craig) are wrong on any of the decisions I will publicly apologise.

There were people around me when I was judging but they were not talking to me during the fight action as then my attention was, as always, 100% on the fight (so much so I don't hear the crowd or conversation around me). Those sitting next to me included an ambulance man on my right, a martial arts journalist to my left (for most of the time) and a fighter and coach sitting behind. I did talk in the round breaks as I have done previously as I feel explaining who is winning and why is important for the sports development.

All three judges were neutral and impartial and all scored the fights how they saw them without any agenda other than to be fair and the sport's future development.

Thanks Tony Myers for the detailed explanation. We should be grateful that every time there is debate over decisions ther is someone to clarify exatly how the fight should be judged who has top level experience. Especially for people, like myself, who are unsure on the finer details of the art. :)

Tony agreed we should forward a tape to a exceptable arbitrator for clarification. The only really telling effect in the whole fight was the deep cut caused by a elbow that scores really strongly.

we have been over this ground before i recall Sak cutting Trevor TNT to ribbons with elbows and losing as he choose to consoladate in the last round as he felt he had won the fight.

Sak spent the night on the dance floor Trevor (nice young man in A&E)

cuts are there for stoppages, people pour with blood week in week out at stadium and win on pts, clean body kick still better score than elbow unless its one like wakeling threw that competely decks or rocks opponent.
agree 100% bill about people at ringside. maybe the judges should be in boxes like in thailand, ive had to put my fingers in my ears before because of overhearing garbage coming out of commentators mouths when trying to concentrate on judging.

Mark L from Canada should maybe look at the tape just to confirm the decision, he is also fully certified judge.

Just 1 more thing didnt think u could have a draw on a title fight? then again promotors make rule sup as thy go along most of time.

Peter Parker not sure its just london it happens a lot of home towns.

didnt see this before lol

liam badco writes:

good luck england....do me a favour kieran and KO wittayanoi he annoyed me to hell in the last fight with all his moving around and not stayin in one place so i could hit him.........also just been told in the programme it says wittaynois fight record then next to that "beaten liam harrison" also in the press release it mentioned how wittayanoi had beaten me and was my nemisis? wtf. i was just curious why dan green is trying to make a big deal out of that. using my name to try to promote kierans and then still have the cheek to come over to me at the leeds show and say "alright liam". like nothing was wrong. oooh thats why cause hes a smarmy two faced little wanker its plain to see to everyone why wittayanoi was brought to the uk to fight

Tony send the dvd of the fight to me and ill pass it on to someone here to judge ppppppppppllllllllleeeeeaaaassseee and also whilst where at it just put the whole show on there too. he he

Thaisoon17

I don't see the benefit of bringing up Liam's post quoted above, there is too much friction in the sport already without reopening old wounds!

I think Mark L is a good judge but for clarification this should go to the best in Thailand. If Dan and the WMC are happy allow me to have the tape, I can send it to Wan Chai Prowsee (voted best referee Rajadamnern 2002) to clarify scoring.

In WMC world title fights you couldn't have a draw but in WMC Muaythai Against Drugs (MAD) titles you can. This also happened recently in Australia, Craig can tell you the name of the fighters involved.

LOL Liam. If I get a copy will be happy to mate. You can get Jitti to look at it. I can give it Pimu as well and he can get any of the best Channel 9 judges to look at the fights.

any pics yet? i was there and it was a quality show some all out wars going on!! and amazing to see so many top names on the same show and in this country

while your at it send me a copy and I am sure I can get someone to have a look as soon as ive finished watching it lol

Tony send it to me as well and I'll look at it. I bet Dan is shitting himself for DVD sales now!! haha everyone is taking an official look so no one will buy the DVD LOL

LOL...I don't think he will let anyone look now without forking out for a copy first :)

As the show was sanctioned by the WMC and there was a obvious discrepency in the judging by one of the three wmc qualified judges,therefore the wmc should be responsable to review the fight and give a detailed explanation of how the boards rules should be interpertated.

I did feel Damien (despite a fantastic performance )lost and agreed with the overall view expressed. I also agree that Krista deserved the decesion over Rebbecca.

I disagree with the outcome of kieron keddle fight.I feel kieron edged the fight and knew he had it in the bag in the fifth.

All the english fighters fought well and did us proud.

What we dont want guys is a farce like what happened in Holland with the WPKL with a world title fight.
The decision will not and can not be changed, and in my opinion, should not be changed, other wise it is making a mockery of the judging and the sport. It's best to leave it and not start sending tapes of the fight to other judges. Dont forget, they would only see it from one camera view and so would hinder a complete neutral opinion.
It's a big shame that Dave lost as he such a fantastic guy and great fighter and true professional and so respectful to his trainer in Bill, but as already quoted on here, he is a big winner having fought a legend. He will come back better and stronger from this, and who knows, maybe a rematch??

I was not there (in Scotland, enjoying a relaxing holiday!!) but it sounds like it was a cracking show. Well done Dan, and to all the fighters, you've done the UK proud.

Thanks to Tony Myers for that excellent explanation which apply to all fighters except those from London. If the fighter is from London the correct decision is deemed to be what the fighters trainer thinks it is.

I was at the show and my opinion is that David Paquette should have won the fight without a doubt, and I spoke to many people who have been involved in Thai Boxing for many years, and they felt the same. Even certain members of Samkor's corner team felt that he had lost, and they also have years of experience in Thai boxing in the UK, and to a large degree in Thailand. I have the greatest respect for Tony Myers and Craig O'Flynn, top men who love the sport of Muay Thai and want to see it evolve and improve in the UK, but I disagree with their decision this time, therefore I will look at the tape once it is on sale, and if I feel that I was wrong I will come on here and apologise to Tony and Craig. It is not a London thing or a Southern thing, as I believed in my opinion that Richard Cadden had done enough to win when he fought Michael Showers on Pain and Glory, and Michael Showers is a mate of mine. I understand that judging is not a perfect science, and that different people will see fights in different ways, and everyone is entitled to their opinion, and any fighting art that has judges will always have controversial decisions, and this one will not be the last, it is the nature of the sport.
Steven Wakeling was awesome, and as I have stated before, he is the greatest Thai Boxer that the UK has ever produced, after 23 fights he has won the WBC and WMC World Titles, S1 championship in Thailand, and beating JWP and Jomhod.
I did not see all of Kierons fight, so i cannot comment on it, but i know that Alan Keddle felt he had won the fight.
Michael Wakeling was devastating with his left hook KO of Richard Jones. I feel that Richard Jones health should be considered now, as he has suffered quite a few KO losses in a short space of time, a fighters health must come first, I am sure that Pele will be considering this.
Great show, and well done to Dan Green, I hope he did not lose money, as this was a very expensive show to run, with fantastic fights.

Jesse, there was no suggestion that viewing the fight will mean any decision will be changed mate. That is not the way to go as you are aware; the WMC select officials and their decisions stand.

The suggestion was made for some experienced judge from Thailand to view the fight as a damage limitation exercise, to try to show there was no political decision made but just a real attempt to judge the fight using MuayThai criteria. Craig and me are confident in our decisions on all the fights.

Sean, I certainly don't take offence at you considering Dave won the fight mate, you don't need to make any apology whatever you think when looking at the fight again. I know you give your honest opinion and it is unbiased. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I feel no bad feelings towards anyone in the sport at all.

I am sure there were many who have been in MuayThai for years who thought David won. Which suggests to me is that we still have a way to go to educate coaches, fighters, judges and the public. If they think Dave and Kieran won they should come forward and explain exactly why they won, which of their techniques actually scored and why their opponent's didn't.

What was encouraging for me was the number of people involved in the sport who did get the scoring right on this and the other fights. To me it represents a real break through.

Wicked last half of the show, was very impressed with Jay Woodham and M. Wakelings fights both looked class and one's to watch out for in the future, well done lads. I am not going to make any comment on the scoring of Dave Vs Samkor all i will say is well done Dave that was the best ive seen you fight mate and against a top class opponent, wheter you got the decision or not you are a winner just for having the balls to get in the ring with someone of Samkors calibre, so again well done was impressed and pleased with your performance good to watch. Bill i was sat next to Tony throughout Dave's fight as i wanted to be as close to the action as possible as Samkor is 1 of my top 3 fav fighters ever, and i was taking some pics, plus i seriously don't think i will ever get a chance to be that close when he fights again, i was far from putting Tony off from the action as neither of us took our eye's away from what was going on in the ring, Tony did talk to me yes, but it was at the end of the round and he was explaining things to me about the scoring of Muay Thai and how to nick the rounds etc, i apologise if you think my been sat with him was influencing or distracting him but i can assure you it was not. Tony is first and for most a good friend of mine through the sport and gives me advice wherever needed (ie judging in this case)and second of all he is a professional who always (IMO) gives the fair/correct result, we need more judges in the UK like him and the likes of Liam Robinson, Dean James Craig O'Flynn and Dave Jackson, (i apologise if i have missed any) Congratulations to all involved with the show, and all involved in putting it in to place.

I would be happy to take an unbiased view of the fight (...and i am not angling for a free dvd)

I will post my opinion on here round by round and explain my opinions as I see MT should be judged. Then you can all rip me apart if you like :)

Congratulations to everyone involved with the show.

Well done to Dan Green for putting it on and making it such a success. Everything went smoothly and it was really well run. Great venue too.

It was great to see such top quality fighters in the UK and even better to see our fighters doing so well against them.

Steve Wakelings performance was superb and its great to see a UK legend in the making. Mark and family and the whole gym must be very proud, as should the whole UK Muay Thai community.

Dave Paquette put on a superb performance against one of the most feared fighters of the last few years and should be proud that he was able to make the fight so close that there is controversy over the decision!

Kierens fight was very close and I don't think either fighter really got a real foothold in the fight and I personally enjoyed the fight and seeing a Muay Thai chess match.

Damiens fight was very entertaining too and I was very impressed with the Thai's knee work. Damien did really well to stand up to it.

The only downside was the drive home!

Only deserved ripping apart needs directing at Dan G for the bad boy Hi Tec's

LOL, they were pure class!!

i judge fights as I see them.

I was one of the judges at Master Skens show when Andy Howson lost to Damian Trainor and Jordan Watson also got a descision that the bad Co team didnt agree with so I am in no way a biased judge

there are like 4,000,000,000 bits of info going in the brain a second and we pick out about 2000 is it...?? lol

Maybe you just can't make up your mind which way to be biased

just kidding

I think judging is a tough job and they always get the flack as often not everyone thinks the same guy won. So no matter who wins someone will complain..

I don't know Dave real well but he;s got my support :)

You can't have everyone agreeing all the time. We all have our own set of eyes and they will see things differently. Interesting point from Tony that because some people thought David won proves there is a long way to go with judging in the UK.

Judges are used as scape goats by people with a biased opinion i.e Fighters cornermen, trainers, family etc, Nobody worries in football when their own team is given a dubious decision or even a close decision. But when it is the other sides close or dubious claim there is an out cry!! Lets not attack the judges for their own opinion based on the fundamentals of MT judging. Or, we will need to have a jury not a judge at fights and go with the majority!!

Sometimes things just don't go the fighters way with judges in the same way a football team doesn't get referee decisions.

For you conspiracy theorist out there (And I am one myself) perhaps Tony and Bill are on the sales team for the DVD's and are creating a storm to get sales up.LOL because I don't think there is one person on here who isn't going to buy a copy to have a see what all the fuss is about.

as far as i understand if an elbow lands, its scores.
if an elbow lands, causes a cut, then it scores exactly the same...
whether an elbow is delivered by spinning/jumping/spear...all score the
same.
Flashy techniques are just normal tools used by a proficient nak-muay, using
every technique in his arsenal/fighting ability.

as far as i saw (from 3 rows behind ringside) samkor dominated round three
and landed with a greater quantity of scoring techniques...particularly his
tell tale left kick. IMHO: It is more difficult to win off the back foot as
your opponent is already coming forward, so it will be more difficult for a
judge to spot the effect caused if they are commited to moving forward.

I was watching his (samkors) dvd before i came down to london (in anticipation) and
expected samkor to walk away with this fight, but all credit to dave,he made
it a very close fight.

I think Damien had the toughest fight of the night, however saying
that...they were all great fights. well done to all fighters.
I really enjoyed the Rebbeca Donnelly fight against Krista Flemming. Great
all-action bout with a good trade of styles.

I am a friend of Kieran's but am IMO never bias, he will tell you that himself. When Kieran does fight, I let him know that I thought he was poor or good etc, and although Saturdays fight wasnt an exciting fight from a spectators point of you, it was a very clever fought one ! I was very impressed with the way Kieran fought (as said on a previous post...like a chess match)

Kieran was shocked as was I at the decision but Kieran being Kieran will not come on here saying so and disputing it etc, he will just get on with doing his talking in the ring

A true role model for any youngster (think eveyone would agree this even Saturdays judges)

Keep up the good work.

POINT OF VIEW HA HA SORRY

youre obviously not down with the students stylee Andy! good strippers poor dunlops though.

Noi66
"as far as i understand if a elbow lands,it scores" if it lands and causes a cut it scores the same.

Tony Myers interpretation of the the boards rules:
"Elbows score as well as punches do(they have to cut an opponent,stagger a opponent or cause them to lose position or show they are hurt )to score really well.

Hmm.. well David`s elbow landed and cause a deep cut , Samkor on the other hand landed nothing to cause David to lose postion ,stagger,or cut David. David did work lateraly he did not plan to stand static (and just trade kick for kick )to nullify samkor kicks that is not going on the back foot he put a response in immediate and effective the way he (david) has been schooled. More to the point he was the aggressor instigating the attacks and Samkor was moving back in an atempt to lure David in.


Noi66

"Flashy techniques are just normal tools used by proficient nak-muay fighters,using every technique in his arsenal/fighting abilty."

My view exactly In my response to Peter parker (who ever that is !) who implied jumping elbows and Knees was dancing/running around.

I thought David performed very well whatever the result, both Wakelings were excellent once again. I also thought Damien performed well against a very strong opponent as did Kieran who I thought was very unlucky not to get the decision as I thought he won both the 4th and 5th rounds in a very cagey fight. Also credit should go to him for taking the fight with a massive cut on his forhead that was far from healed when a lot of fighters may well have pulled out.

Someone else judging after the show is pointless really won,t change views are views simple,fighting these top thais as these lads did,Pacquette and Steven is fantastic the past is the past rematches galore then fellas,Wakeling is something else a rare talent lets see him him v Villaume now.

I WANT TO SEE PICTURES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

True Judging retrospectively solves nothing ,however certain issues have to be addressed IMO.

For Muay Thai to progress Judging needs to be consistant and have continunity we need to sing from the same song sheet (Rules from Board of boxing Thailand,Scoring Critera) and in tune (similar interpretation)
example
A elbow that cause a deep cut has a tellig effect fighter looks away and needs treatment should warrant a eight count (even if the ref is so concerned for the fighters welfare he calls a doctor and neglects a count)

Also judges should remain totaly impartial ,isolated and detatched IMO

socializing and staying in the same hotels as fighters does not help.
Training fighters who have fought against gym you are judging etc.....

hidden agenda!

A fighter needs to win or lose in the ring end of

We owe it to our fighters to ensure this ,with so little purse money and recognition .

a seperate officals assocation (independant) is required with proffessional ref`s free from other interests gyms, fighters , manufacture of goods, promoters etc....

Tony: is the course you run on judging and refereeing validated by Wanchan Prowesee (raja ref)

...please excuse spelling! :)

That would be ideal Bill but I can never see it happening, even on Ax you see there are strong friendships between certain fighters and camps and people who end up judging their fights which even if they claim to be totally nuetral I find hard to believe. If there is anything more than a strictly professional relationship the judges should not be judging.

First of all some top fights British Muaythai def on the up ... I was there on sat with just a few of my mates (sorry if they upset anyone lol some old habits are hard to bury)... we were all sat a few rows behind Mr Cadden and Mr Howson so not far from the front with a very good view of the fights ...

Tony we have known each other quite a long time now and always seemed to have got along, along with Craig Oflynn again who i consider a mate .... i am now even more confused with the criteria of judging fights as the criteria you mentioned above is not the same as what you said to me and Alan in and out of the ring at pain & glory with regards to kicks landing to the arms and body and also miss balancing an opponent (and before any one jumps down my throat i am not trying to open old wounds far from it as the people involved were chatting for a while and we got along fine ).

i too have been going to Thailand for longer than i care to mention (without revealing my true age)and seen the judging trends change over the years along with which techniques score most and least .

we have all at some point had decisions not go our way and vice versa this is not for 1 sec a thing which comes down to which area you live in or who your friends are , i am a northerner living in the south with very good friends in both parts of the country so its not just a London thing .

when ever i think a fighter of mine has lost i say he lost and the same goes for friends who lost , the point im making is as some people know i tell it how i see it and suffer the backlash whenever ... its no secret that myself and Alan are good mates as is Kee and Shaun (ive taken all the keddle clan on pads they all kick like girls).. its also no secret that i taught at his gym for a year and a half ,my fighters have and still train there but we still have our own ideas and ideals But ive openly disagreed with Alan and kieron on a few matters and some decisions but on this one i DO think Kee had it won .

i was also under the impression that in title fights you couldnt have a draw..
but then again who am i ...

Russ

of what?

here you go rich.

I also agree there should be a winner and a loser (esp in view of recent fights) ;-)

Me

Thanks wainey great imput he he...yes you look cool on your new toy.

First things first....well done to Dan Green for getting this thing together in the first place. It was a very costly show to put together and Dan took a huge risk to produce one of the finest cards ever put together in Europe, let alone UK. Hope you done OK.

Lets celebrate some success....Well done to Stephen Wakeling - a superb performance everyone must be so proud of you. You go from strength to strength and like Vinnie suggests, now is the time to bring on Villaume....I know where my money is.....well done mate, I thought for a second that you were going to stop him in round one, the way you executed that elbow and made Johmod pay was superb.

Also great performances from Michael Wakeling, Jay Woodham and Rebecca Donnelly, who fought Krista Fleming who comes with a very strong record indeed and gave her a war. Damien was unfortunate, he met a very good Thai with well schooled clinch work.

In my opinion Dave Pacquette and Kieran won their fights. Two different types of fights with two different types of styles and approaches.

Kieran's approach to this fight was obviously a cautious one due to a 2" gash (8 stitches)above his eye sustained only two weeks ago. Many fighters would have pulled the plug on the fight but Kieran is a different breed when it comes to bravery. Up close he executed some heavy scoring elbows and never looked anything than comfortable. It was not a barn stormer by any means but Kieran definately done enough to win the fight, picking his shots from range and not geting into any trade ups. Body language speaks volumes in Thai Boxing and even Wittayanoi walked back to the corner at the end of the fight knowing he had lost.

Shit happens and Kieran will just move on and look forward to his next fight in September.

Pacquette fought very well and it was clear from the start that he was really well prepared and had a game plan. For most of the fight, I had Pacquette down as the aggressor and he connected with more of the telling shots. Samkor did look in trouble (especially early on) and Paquette never did.

Like Sean, I will again have a look at the DVD (Dan you are going to make a killing - LOL) and admit if my original opinion is wrong.

This is not a pop at the judges, not everyone agrees the same thing at the same time - but everyone is entitled to an opinion. You can have the three worlds best and most qualified judges score the same fight under the same criteria and still have a mixed bag of scoring. I know Tony (& Craig & Nash) and he is a very good judge and referee and appreciates feedback and other opinions.

Cheers,
Shaun

Yeah forgot to add that, well done Dan Green for putting this show on, not so well done on a shocking outfit

Dan's dress sense was abysmal, I though I had got the wrong night and Busted were back in town. LOL.

Yeh pictures! I went to a show in Morocco, then afterwards, had a seven hour train ride across the country with kids throwing bricks at us and shooting with air pistols then a 4 hour wait in Tangiers avoiding being mugged or pickpocketed then a 3 hour crossing in a force 8 gale with by hundreds of screaming panicking North Africans being sick all over each other, then didnt get home til 3am cos I had a flat tyre still managed to get photos on here the next day.
It's true!

I shouldn't think there will be any pictures on here in the near future, it was Dan Greens show so I'm sure they will be be on Muaythai online before they are on here

p.s.

Russ - we kick like we're hung. Like mules...

andy bc quotes...in reference to Tony myers judging 'in the UK like him and the likes of Liam Robinson, Dean James Craig O'Flynn and Dave Jackson, (i apologise if i have missed any).

Agreed Andy! good set of judges to pick from although I would add Nash Keshwala,Sean Toomey,Paul Hamilton,Pele Nathan, Louis Meschia etc need a mention however you should exclude Liam Robinson from this as he comes on ax under alias users like pinsinchai, global, buakow boy, thaisoon 17, Justin Lauavigne, etc etc and slags people of especially my fighters then expects us to be happy with him doing any judging!! he is a disgrace to judging and does not bring impartiality to the sport.He should be aware that ip address give u away! as a result of this I expect Tony Myers as his trainer to put him straight on this and perhaps he needs 'educating'. How the hell can his view be impartial when he comes on here under alias users because he is afraid to put his name to it. He cannot deny it! impartiality starts at home!!!


this comes from the back of the statement below....

'I am sure there were many who have been in MuayThai for years who thought David won. Which suggests to me is that we still have a way to go to 'EDUCATE' coaches, fighters, judges and the public. If they think Dave and Kieran won they should come forward and explain exactly why they won, which of their techniques actually scored and why their opponent's didn't. '

the fact that you stated Kieran won the 5th but needed a big round is what I have in question and the fact you saw 4th as a draw! he either won the round or he didnt! 10 or 9? the thai conceeded defeat in round 5 and it was clear for all to see! the thai was off balanced, hit with clean shots in 4 and 5 and had the less effect with anything he threw. clear win rounds and I do not need any further clarification of the rules thanks.THE THAI KNOWS THIS ALSO.


I do not agree with the Sarmkor descision or Kierans but I respect that Tony scores it his way.Fair enough.I expect that he should respect our opinion and shouldnt think that we are in need of EDUCATION. Sarmkor was in big trouble after that elbow not just from the cut but from the impact of the blow. Had it been a punch then he would have got an eight count and therefore the effect the elbow had should have been treated the same way. And likewise he should respect ours! Many experienced trainers were there and thought Kieran and Dave won! afterall the entire scoring system was invenetd by fighters and trainers originally! Opinions are always going to be different thats why you have three judges and not 1! The interesting point is that there was three on the night and the third judge was Nash Keshwala appointed by WMC for this fight and thailand ifma trained and experienced judge.He scored the fights kierans way and daveS way!!! if judging is to be consistent then all the judges will score the same wouldnt they? what a load of shite! that is a dictatorship if I ever heard!angles alter peoples opinions and so does the assessment of the damage done. Opinions on fights will always vary even in Thailand! the whole reason to have three judges and not 1 is for this very reason and if you think that Sean Toomey, Bill Judd,Russ Connor, Tim Isli, myself a mountain of other instuctors and about 1500 people are wrong then you are mad! Kieran won the fight end of story and the fact that it was level going into the last and the thai was totally dominated in the fifth hands ki a victory. The biggest give away for that was the fact that the thai conceded defeat and knew he had lost. It happens at all the stadiums in the last round when the fighter has lost he knows it like the thai did at the weekend. I bet he couldnt believe getting a draw.

In the case of Kierans fight for that world title the fact that one of the judges had scored it Kierans way should have been enough along with the fifth round landslide to give the fight to Kieran. If you expect us to be happy with the result and respect the descision then you should not use words like 'we need educating'.an insult to say the least.

Another point is why do people assume that the judging for the first round should have been level. We are not in Thailand creating odds for the gamblers to bet on!!! If thats the case then scrap the first round.KIERAN WON THE FIRST ROUND!!! We are not in Thailand and if you expect people to follow the sport then we need to count every round properly.Spectators were not impressed and I have never heard such a reaction to those results ever! Muay thai is a global sport now not just belonging to Thailand. If this is the case we better abandon associations like FIFA cos we created football! Thailand is another country and the scoring in the stadiums is very dicated by gambling. end of.
If the sport is to grow then the results need to be something like what people can relate too otherwise we are getting nowhere. To suggest that decorated instructors are in need of scoring education is a fucking joke to say the least. It is the same as saying that WE DONT KNOW HOW TO TRAIN ARE FIGHTERS TO WIN!! WHAT A LOAD OF SHIT! especially in light of the fact that there is no other englishmen with as much thai fighting experience as Kieran has. He knows when he has lost or drawn and he knew saturday that he had won and played that game in the fifth and the Thai knew aswell.

Another point Bill Judd and I agree on is that impartial judging starts from not having your own fighters on the circuit, not sharing discussions ringside whilst judging, not sharing hotel rooms and socialising with the opposition and not having students forming alias users to publicy condemn your gym!!! I would just love to see the shoe on the other foot and see what would be thought if we did the same. Fortuntaely we have some balls about us and are not afraid to write our names on here. Liam R on the other side should be ashamed of himself.

Shouln't Muay Thai be scored the same as it is in Thailand? Especially if British fighters are to compete in Thailand and be successful.

With the greatest respect to Nash didn't he score the Damien fight in favour of Damien. Seems like there was consistancy (which people are going on about) between 2 of the judges.

Thanks to all those who are helping me understand how to score Muay Thai properly.

Russ, yes mate, we have always got along and I am sure we will continue to do so. I am confused what was different about what I said to you and Alan at Pain and Glory and what I have written on this forum. If I remember I said kicks and knees to the body score more than leg kicks unless they cause loss of position (move the boxer or cause them to end up on their butt) or cause them to show pain. That was what should have come across any way pal.

Shaun, I know Kieran is a sound lad who doesn’t make a fuss and gets on with things. I agree he fought a thoughtful, tactical fight. I think he was prudent not to get drawn into an attack as his opponent is a clever counter fighter. However, he needed to win the last to rounds clearly to win the fight as he was behind at that point. He drew round four so was still behind going into the fifth. He fought his best round in the fifth and that got him the draw (he would have lost if he hadn’t won that round). To win he would have needed to have won the fifth bigger.

I think all judges in the UK try to do their best and I can't think of anyone who would be deliberately biased. However, if appropriate criteria are applied the scores should be very similar in 95% of fights. Craig's decisions for every fight were the same as mine. That wasn't just chance, it was because we applied consistent scoring criteria. Just the same as if you watch fights at Rajadamnern and Lumpinee in most fights you know who has won before the last round has finished. It is only in very, very close fights (approx 5%) it is difficult to tell, for example where one judge gives a draw and the others go one for one boxer and one for the other.

i have just spoken to someone involved with the show and all the thais (excluding jomhod) thought they had done enough to win. not startin arguements but just been told that. by the way liam robinson is very good friends with reece crooke and also people from badco and he has scored close fights against reece, myself, howson cadden etc when nobody would have argued if the dec would have gone the other way but he was fair and scored fairly. just fought id add that as questioning his judging was unfair whatever else he chooses to do is up to him but his judging is done straight down the middle.

Alan, I don't agree with anyone slagging people off full stop. I think people using alias and slagging people off is worse. However, this is a free country and although I have spoken to Liam and asked him not to slag people off, if he really wants to I can't stop him.

I think debate is healthy and welcome it. I still hold the opinion that that UK coaches, fighters and officials need educating in scoring though mate. I am not trying to wind anyone up by saying this mate or trying to disrepect anyone. In fact I don't think having a dig at anyone is that productive. Everyone is entitled to their opinion on these fights and express that opinion.

I you want Alan, when the video comes out I am happy to sit with you and show you how me and Craig scored Ki's and Dave's fights. Then you can tell me how you scored it.

The Thai Kieran fought didn't look like he thought he had done enough. From where I was sitting he looked like he had given it up as a lot of Thais do when they know time has run out for them.

when we fought the 2nd time he looked like he lost and dint wanna know and i thought id won i think its just how he is to be honest. he is a boring fighter but tough to pull away from on the cards.

I have been asked for an apolagy by dan about my comments earlier in the thread so id just like to retract my comment about dan being a wanker there was no call for it or was it very professional......however i stick with my comment about him being 2 faced. when asked who wanted to bring wittayanoi to the uk you said keddles gym speciffically asked for him and alan has already said you wanted to bring him....so i think that comment is justified.

I am only new to Ax and to muay Thai but I was there on Sat and Pain and Glory I think the Uk Muay seen is close net with lots of politics involed.

The Judges need to be in a unit with no outside communication while judging??
But that's what I just think, or getting judges out side the UK to judge but like any show it's run on a tight budget.

But I had a great time great show Dan.

Nuff Respect to Rebbeca Donnelly.
Kieran, strategist, true professional.
Dave great heart, respect.
Damien great fight.
Both Wakling lads excellent.
Who next for Steve???

thaisoon and Tony-thanks for the thought :) I agree with Tony though that I would have no place judging. Certainly not check it against judges with more experience than me.

That said I certainly give my opinion lol

Rich-IMO not all elbows are created equal-the effect of what lands effects how big it scores IMO

good idea Tony although we will see things differently no matter what scoring criteria you choose to use. Even if we sit there with the rules in hand it will still vary on the level of power based in a shot and what you define as landed technique. Power and forcing the fight should always count for something. After the Michael showers fight (not that that fight has anything to do with this) you say that the body kicks were scoring and pushing Mike back but what about the low kicks thrown that were leg bucklers and totally off balancing the opponent and the teebs that pushed to the floor? there were a few trips to the canvas that night. The result is what it was but we are using the criteria you gave us as argument whether mike had won or lost.


I do not agree with alias users coming on ax after they have been banned and I do not agree with people that are supposed to be judges under your banner slagging off my gym for no reason. Even further than that I do not agree with syndicate users like Global Breathren whos identities I know! This is against ax rules let alone a disgrcaeful and cowardly act. I saw him ringside during mikes fight and being as the last time he saw mike he was getting knocked out by him and has openly critised us since. It wasnt encouraging to see him sitting there with the other judges.He has openly made rude and uncalled for remarks many times and caused so much trouble it isnt funny.

My students are taught to have more respect than that and as you chose to use the words 'educate' us perhaps you could do the same with one of your fighters. If you chose to associate with him and judge together then of course you will suffer some of the same flack. Bill and i know this! He cannot possibly judge any fight from my gym fairly after the comments he has written the last few years. We would have a lot more respect if he had the balls to at least put his name forwards! god only knows what we have done to offend him and perhaps he may have the balls to discuss it with me one day like the bad co lot have. It is obvious to us where his loyalties lie with certain other gyms. A poor candidate for judging in my opinion!

Christ what a shambles. Before anyone starts another thread about coaches, promoters etc getting together to take the sport forward and promote it to the masses, which seems to come up annually with no end product, why not start with the basics and get the rules sorted.

If I was an outsider reading this for the first time it would seem like the sport is an unregulated joke that will only ever have a very small niche amongst the populus.

I would take the positive out of this in that a huge problem has been identified and there is now an opportunity to change it for the better, rather than the same old thing emanating time and time again

"My bloke won because he got in two elbows and a jump knee"
"No, mine won because he landed a left body kick and spinning elbow followed by a teep and they score higher".

What? The simpler a sport is the more popular it has a chance of becoming, but Muay Thai will always be firmly embedded with the likes of water polo and lacrosse if even the fighters dont have a clue what they need to be doing to actually win.

Alan this isn't something im putting to mix this whole thing up or take side's etc,etc but as Liam said earlier, Liam Rob is a good mate of ours as you prob well no, as is Tony. But there judging is not biased IMO as they have both judged me and Liam on the same bill and the fights went against us. Tony's lads come up to our gym every now and again to spar with us and we go down to them, as i do with many other gyms, ie Dave Jackson Warrington Muay Thai, Daz Phillips GFC, and in the past Mike and Trix's Wicker Camp. We have good friends at all these gyms Andy Thrasher,Scott Quigg,Martin Shivnen,Lee CHesters,Imran Khan,Christian Da Paulo, and many many more i could go on for ages, but we have fought lads from there gyms and also had people from there gyms judge us, ie Dave judged me against trainor in our last meeting and gave it to Damien. My point is this really, i just don't agree they are biased, Liam R and Tony judged my fight with Kantipong of Thailand on last years Muay Thai Superfights, when the desicion was given you could here nothing but boo's and i was in wolerhampton and we had maybe 150 people we had sold tickets to, the whole crowd did not agree with the desicion, i too was a bit gutted but as you say you no yourself when you have won/lost a fight. I thought that i had poss done enuff to earn a draw but Kantipong won. Now if Tony and Liam R where biased would they have scored what was thought to be the best and closest fight of the year against there FRIEND??? You wouldnt have thought so but they remained proffesional despite there friendship with myself and scored as Muay Thai should be. I do think that Liam R was actually quite aroused by the hideous left leg that was whacking across my arm every 5 seconds,lol. Soz for the massive post as my point could have been made alot earlier,lol soz lads and lasses.

AndyBC, I think the point that Alan is trying to make is not that Liam Robinson cannot act in a professional manner when judging his friends, but that Liam Robinson cannot act in a professional manner when judging people that he HATES and holds a grudge against!
If Liam Robbinson is Bukow boy, Pinichai, andyescort, thaisoon and any other alias's then he should not be judging, end of.
Just go back and look at some of the posts that he has made and you cannot help but be horrified to think that this 'man' is a judge.

Some of the biggest names in the UK fight scene are here, on this thread argueing Publicly... AGAIN.

You know you are all going to see each other ring side within the next 3-6 months, so why air it here?

You have each others number, just call.

St.Albans, London, Birmingham, Manchester.. whereever, but please not here...

My students are reading this and asking me questions I don't want to answer.

Please, stop.

Alan, that's great, I will take the invite and come down to you to talk over the fight when the DVD comes out. I do think we will see the scoring differently particularly if we only use the criteria as they stand. It is the application of those criteria that is important in getting near to the consistency Thailand has. By using things that everyone is more likely to agree on judging becomes more consistent. For example, if the scoring criteria say we are looking for the effect of a technique we could all have an opinion of what that is. So what I think of as effect may very well be different to what you consider to be effective. However, if we agree to interpret an effective technique as a fighter moving then we are far more like to agree on whether that happened or not. If we only choose to score other things that are easy to determine if they hit the target or not, then we are also more likely to agree on those things as well. It is generally relatively easy to see if kicks and knees to the body have hit the target, missed or was blocked. Punches can be a little trickier to see if they have landed or not when thrown in quick succession (as has been found in the electronic amateur boxing scoring system used now). However, if we only look for the ones who really move the fighter or hurt them visibly then again we are more likely to agree on if this happened or not. I could go on but it is for these reasons that scoring is able to be so consistent in MuayThai in Thailand; the interpretation of the criteria that is the key.

I was not trying to be patronising when I said people needed to be educated on scoring. I am always looking to be educated on scoring and anything else. As far as MuayThai judging goes I have spent many, many hours over a number of years interviewing, debating, discussing and learning from some of Thailand’s most senior referees/ judges on the very points we are now debating. To confirm understanding I have been given the chance on a number of occasions to shadow judge at Rajadamnern and am pleased to find that my scores didn’t differed on any occasion on even a single round with a top Rajadamnern judge. Now this was possibly a little bit of luck in that the fights were relatively clear to score with no drawn fights. However, this is why I am confident that stadium judges will give the same verdict on the fights as me and Craig did. Time will tell.

As far as Liam Robinson goes, he is an excellent judge who understands scoring very well and is very fair. He has never been biased even when judging fighters from our gym. Even in close fights he has correctly awarded fights against our fighters when they lost (if he hadn’t I would have been angry). As a judge no one can question his ability. As far as posting in different names, as I stated earlier I don’t agree with it if it’s going to be used just to cause offence. Liam, who actually is a really good lad when you get to know him, actually told me he has never slagged off any of your fighters Alan. I can’t comment on this as I don’t know. I have told him a number of times not to slag off anyone; although I am not prepared to police his every post. I do consider being controversial is different than slagging someone off though. Maybe he can answer for himself he is a big boy.

I don't know about anyone else but I am quite worried by what I am reading here. Just as our sport seems to be improving and ready to break into the 'big league' there looks like theres going to be a split straight down the middle of the sport.

This was a great show that should be seen as nothing but good for the sport with so many positives not least the quality of the main fighters and the fact that we are becoming one of the top MT nations in the world in terms of quality of fighters and of shows.

But as this is happening everyone is bickering. The disagreement about scoring and judging is now becoming more personal with accuations of biasness and unprofessionalism creeping in. If we aren't careful uK Muay Thai is going to be irreparably split and damaged. Certain gyms won't work with others, certain gyms won't have certain judges etc and the whole thing will become a joke.We need to put these things to one side and work together for the sake of the sport.

I agree that it is not professional for non officials to sit ringside and I've said so to the people involved. The British Boxing Board of control would not allow it and neither should we. But ours is a relatively small world and Instrucors are promoters, judges and referees nd most of us are friends so there are a lot of potential conflicts.

The fights on saturday (that are under contention) were very close and were bound to attract discussion. Not all fights are so close so the subtleties of judging/scoring criteria don't come into it. MT scoring should not become some mythical thing that only the enlightened few understand, its usually clear who's won but in close fights there will always be differences of opinion.

Send me the fight.. I will give my honest opinion. If i am baised then the Thai Boxing world will see it.

p.s Dan, I wont copy or distribute it :)

By the way...I have business connections with both Bad Co and Keddles and respect both Richard and Alan for all their success

Seems strange to me how and why Liam Robinson has been called out on a discussion over the scoring of the fight between Samkor and Dave Pacquetee.

By the way I'm not biased here in any way and just interested in how Muay Thai should be scored.

right, watching night of combat so thought id post on this as someone from KO rang me to say it was all kicking off again. Alan i will try to answer your points in turn
.............................
exclude Liam Robinson from this as he comes on ax under alias users like pinsinchai, global, buakow boy, thaisoon 17, Justin Lauavigne, etc etc and slags people of especially my fighters then expects us to be happy with him doing any judging!! he is a disgrace to judging and does not bring impartiality to the sport.He should be aware that ip address give u away! as a result of this I expect Tony Myers as his trainer to put him straight on this and perhaps he needs 'educating'. How the hell can his view be impartial when he comes on here under alias users because he is afraid to put his name to it. He cannot deny it! impartiality starts at home!!!
.........................................

Firstly buakow boy and pinsinchai name change was agreed by the moderator and allowed to be changed everyboy knew who it was as it had my name on the profile global was created when a number of us were banned for slagging farhad including student from your own gym who comes on as phil parks, mary hinge etc so they like to use alias too, the password to global was distributed to more than 20 email address's, yes it was stupid and it ended up with sandy holt using it in the end and when caught and confronted he said he got it from me but it was not me posting the stupid comments about your gym, i was in thailand at the time as more than 1 person will confirm. have never heard of justin Lauavigne so i cannot comment on that one. The only reason i ever came back on as thaisoon17 was that a group of people (not badco) were asking me to post regarding judging etc and sent me the password and username, it is not my email address etc and this can also be prooved should you wish. I have not tried to hide on these names they are cimply nicknames like u would have on MSN etc. My name is up there on the profile and age, weight, gym so its obvious its me
and on the pinsinchai etc profiles it had pictures of me aswell. I agree that you are entitled to an opinion of me but i havent had any dealings with you since i helped u out going with that big black dude at samit munramans interclub, i have no sour grapes about mike showers he was a top guy and i was a kid fighting out of a totally different gym etc no problems there at all, i dont really know of any of your other fighters barr kieron who i hadnt seen fight for donkeys years and nicky i saw fight once and thought she was v.good, havent slagged anyone and have no reason to.
I dont understand why you didnt talk to me at golden belt about it when we were gassing for a long time or at pain and glory when we were chatting for quite some time aswel? If i had said something and was scared to show my face i wouldnt have been standing talking to you and tat2, mike etc at p&g. I do not have a low opinion of you or your gym it seems like you want to be hated for some reason, the only thing i would ever question is the rows u get into on the internet but i dont want involving in them please. I can understand if you thought i slated ur fighters that u didnt want me judging the fight of showers and cadden and if i had judged it i would have given it to cadden, not because i am friendly with him or i dislike mike or am jealous that he beat me over 3x2 when i was a kid at the tower, simply becasue he lost the fight fair and square under muay thai scoring critera.
I dont know if you recieved the mail or not but i emailed your brother shaun twice and had no reply asking him to forward the mail to you when i first got wind of being blamed for the foul comments from global, im sorry to say that there are people out there that dislike you and abused the account which was originally intended for an ongoing silly off topic row with farhad. Not sure if you ignored the email or weather it did not reach you but it explained all of the above and also had my mobile number, yes i have opinions as do a lot of people on here and you are welcome to disagree with them and dislike me should you choose but you cannot call me impartial i would be 100% happy for every scorecard i have ever completed to be published on the internet and checked for consistency by any top judge. i have never and would never be influenced by any fighters name, gym, colour, country, home town show or anything else.
I can name a number of very close fights where no-one would have battered an eyelid had i given a draw for example our own fighter nazars first fight with eric from master skens on the warrington show but i gave it against our lad by 1 point. I explained to tony after and he thought it was quite close but agreed that nazar would benefit more from the loss and would boost his training etc.
There are others but i would be here all night. I have never and would never CHEAT as a judge. There was more for me to write but im tired and night of combat has finished now so im going to bed, you can get my mobile number from tony and or email address if you would like to talk about it in private or i will chat to you happily at next show. This isnt a come see me at the next show and say it to my face kinda thing so please dont take it as such. I dont understand why this is come up on this thread now for but im glad it had and i hope when we chat it can be smoothed over as it is pointless, if you dont want me to judge when your boxers fight that is entirely up to you but if they are fighting muay thai correctly id say they would have a greater chance of a points victory should it go to the cards as i would be scoring using the correct MT critera. apologies to everyone else reading this essay or getting RSI from scrolling past the mile long passage it shouldnt be on this shows thing but people do need to hear the truth and not chinese whispers or modified stories. Yes i had alias to takedown farhad but the person from your gym who u know (who i wont name as he makes me laugh and is good mates with a good friend of mine) has had more than me and still continues to use them on here and he is from your own gym.
I havent slated kierons fight on here either and i didnt see all of it so i cant comment but what i did see was even or everso slightly in favour of the thai. I also thought the girls fight was correct and samkors was clear enough and the wakeling one. Trainors one im perplexed as to how it could have been a majority but there u go and you have named him on your top judges list above.
I hope some good does come out of this and people understand the scoring a little more and recognise good judges and give them the credit they deserve.
Cheers for the support from the other names above. email me if you want anything else clearing up so we dont totally muller this threat. Thanks.

grammar stinks on that above but late and cannot be doing with checking it hope every1 gets what im trying 2 say

No matt i wasn't suggesting that was what alan was saying at all mate, i was just stating the proffesionalism of Liam R as a judge. I no alan has a problem with him and those reasons are between them, i have no place to comment on that and will not. I no Liam very well and have never had a problem with the lad, he is a sound guy, but then again he hasn't slagged me or any members of my gym off, (as far as im aware anyway the gay lord??). all i was just trying to get through that yeah he may have done all the things that have been said, i wouln't no again none of my business. was just trying to defend the standard of his judging. Alan yeah if im honest i was all caught up with typing my piece earlier and forgot to mention the likes of Pele, and Paul Hamilton etc,etc. There is many GOOD judges that we have but the difference is GOOD doesnt mean consistant. There must be a way of all the UK judges getting together and attending some sort of judging course so we are all reading off the same chapter??? Until that day the sport will not move forward in the uk as much as the talent of our fighters deserves. Anyway lets get back to the positives shall we. 1 Damien looked good again, didnt seem to be his normal self to me, not as agressive as he was in his last 2 fights in the uk (ie me and Albert) he really wanted to punch my lights out,lol. I understand why he was a bit tentative though as his opponent was changed close to the fight and he ended up fighting the guy who was ranked NO:1 at Lumpinee last year (i think) so can you blame him for been a bit cautious?? Regardless was a good fight and he did well to stand up to those knees in the 3rd round and to come back nig in the 4th? respect mate, but then again i no first hand what your made of. Dave had the fight of his life against 1 of my hero's and regardless of the result should be more than happy with his performance, Samkors last fight against a uk fighter was Lee Colville i believe?? who has a great fight record, and Samkor finished him off in i believe the 1st or 2nd round with that trade mark left kick. Dave didnt let him get it working which was a great game plan, well done mate. And what can you say about Wakeling?? he should now be named the ledgend killer, beating now John Wayne Parr who i think alot of people will class as a Muay Thai legend?? and now THE legend himself Jomhod? Steve was very comfortable been in there and wasn't phased in the slightest by his opponent and what got me even more was that he actually looked to have improved again since his last fight which is a good sign but also a little scary,lol i mean if he carrys on how good can he actually be??? Congrats again to eveyone who fought on this brilliant show. Oh and Alan K, could we please just end all of the shit that we have both said once and for all?? I apologise openly on here for any comments i have made about yourself but i genuinly have never slated any of your fighters, if there has been anything that i had put that you may have taken offence to i again appologise, i can assure you it was not intended in the way you may have read/taken it. So for the sake of our respected gyms and for the sport that we both love Muay Thai, can we just shake on it and put it in the past behind us and look to the future of our sport and our gyms??? if we are both honest we have both been pretty pathetic at times and i no i should have come across in a more proffesional manner, after all IMO we are the 2 top gyms in the UK and have the biggest reputations to hold up. Again i offer my hand in a public appologie and hope you and your gyn accepts?? if you would like to discuss this further please email me, my add is in my profile, thanks. Soz for hijackig the thread for a min, back to the show. Well done Dan for managing to get this show on, if im honest i was very doubtfull that it would come off at first due to the high profile of the 2 main Thai's coming over, congrats.

I agree with Richard, we should celebrate the performances of our fighters on Saturday rather than focus on differences over the scoring of two fights; which everybody agrees were great performances whatever we think of the outcomes. We should also thank Dan Green for risking his money and health (the stress of organising this must have been enormous) to put on the show. It really would be a disaster for British MuayThai if a rift developed after such a great show.

I personally feel those of us involved can sit and talk things through when the video is out. This heated debate may actually end up in something positive. If we can resolve scoring issues between us, hopefully this situation won't arise again on future shows.

I am not going to post on this particular thread again but am happy to discuss things with Alan or Bill be telephone or e-mail. Whatever our disagreements over this situation I still respect and like you both and am confident things will be resoved.

Not trying to "fuel the fire" in any way but "I" feel that judges should be totaly unbiased, as in there should be no such thing as a judge/fighter or a judge/referee or a judge/trainer or judge/promoter or any other mix of the above, because when these cross over there will always be an affilation of some sort or another that people can say influenced the outcome,be it he spars with him or he has lost to him or he has socialised with him etc.. etc..whether it be true or not, People will always say these things, I do not dispute anybodys knowledge of scoring, but "I" think what we need is a defining line between Judge, Trainer, Referee, Fighter and Promoter.Its quite simple fighters fight judges judge trainers train amd promoters promote.
I dont expect anybody to heed my words as I dont consider myself to fall into any of those catorgories,thats my opinion and I thought Id let you have it.

Different views are different views always will be like that,to get in the ring with these high calibre fighters is brilliant as a nation we are moving forwards lets look at that,its crap when you lose not matter which way but look at the whole thing as a country who up until a few years ago was laughed at by countries its a positive thing.

Well done to everyone involved with this show. A real step forward for MT in the UK.

Just to point out that it's me Liam was refering too, I used to post as Phil Parkes when my JD account was suspended. I apologised for that to Brian Richie and have not posed as an alias since. I have no problem with anyone knowing I posted under another name.

From the WMC


Hello England,

Looks like this was a great show which we are very happy about.

Clearly the English fighters are continuing to improve, something England should be very proud off. Special congratulations to Steve Wakeling as Jomhod is a true legend who has been on top of his game for many years.

Judging.

As there were no title fights, we used English judges. Tony Myers, no doubt about it, is one of the most experienced non-Thai referees in the field. He has worked with IFMA judging for many years, he has taken all the WMC judging courses and has also studied with the Thai Board of Boxing.
Craig O Flynn lives and breathes MuayThai. He has also taken all the WMC and IFMA judging courses and is completely competent to judge shows at all levels.

So, looking at this, England should not have been disadvantaged. To be honest, in Thailand when fights are even, the result will go to the home crowd, the English boys and girls who have fought in Thailand are well aware of this. All the Thais who fought were top-class so for any English boy to go the distance and indeed make it a controversial decision is a great achievement. This is something all the gyms should be proud off.

As Tony Myers suggested, we could ask the Head Referee from Rajdamnern, Lumpini and Omnoi (all members of the WMC technical board) to take a look at a DVD of the fight. But, no decision could change – especially taking into consideration the huge amount of knowledge that Tony and Craig bring to the table - this must be said in all fairness.

Bottom line is, I have seen all the English boys for many years. I was the referee when Steve Wakeling won the WMC World Title against Ying-Yai, I have seen David Paquette going from strength to strength, Kieran I have seen progressing for many years, we have give Damian the chance to fight for the Intercontinental Title in Japan he is such a classy boxer – we should all be proud of them for going so far and with all our support they can go much further.

Supporters and corner-men always see a different fight to what the judges are watching. Emotions fly high at these events - I am sure that when you all watch the tape in peace you will agree with the judges.

In Australia, we have had many close and controversial decisions - Wayne Parr and Bruce McFie lost very closely against Thais for example. But, you would not see the gyms going on and on about judging on the Net. Sure, the boxers are always unhappy to lose but they are professional enough to move on.
The trainers will have a private meeting with the judges to look at the score sheets, everyone discusses it and then they prepare for the next show - during which again the most experienced judges will sit on the table.

This is the way it should be done. We all belong to one family, so problems should be sorted out together – and not on public forums. It seems like this is something which you should consider in England.

So, congratulations to the whole English team for a great performance - with results like this you can be considered as one of the Muaythai power houses

And, to Dan Green – no-one really has yet mentioned him for putting on such a fantastic event, we all know how much work and headache goes into organizing such a show .

Well done!

Stephan Fox

Andy BC he maybe wasnt as aggresive as he normally is because when Damion attacked in rnd 2 he was cut straight away then he went forward in rnd 3 got a count with knees so he was restricted really & even when he caught Yoksila with clean punches he didnt looked moved at all
also andy the last english person samkor thought was phil mcalpine in the kings birtday celebrations and phil lost on points in the final against samkor

Beyond the brilliant performances by the British fighters against Muay Thai legends in their prime, another positive point to come out of this is that top Thai fighters can now expect to get fair judging when they come to the UK and this could encourage other fighters to make the trip.

How often do travelling fighters expect to win the decision on a very close fight against the local boy in ANY country?

Is it possible that the judges at this event were aware of this and in the interests of being "perfectly" fair, may have subconsciously been guilty of showing too much respect or even positive discrimination towards the visitors?

I'm not saying it's the case with these judges as I don't know them but I think there are are few people in this country who are a little bit biased towards Thais because they are Thais

On a slightly different note.

I always find it hard to believe how people will cheer on a Thai fighter they don't even know over a British fighter; I see it a lot and it always baffles me!

ask thaisoon17! lol

ask him what?

i think quite a few people should book themselves on a judging course to understand clearly how a fight should be scored. im sure tony will gladly hold more judging seminars to accompany anyone wishing to have one. why must there always be an argument after a show, if a show goes well and the fighters have fought well, win or lose its the taking part that counts in the end. As far as the judging goes i dont think you could get a better judge in the uk in the form of tony myers.

Hook that was my point, When Damien was agressive he got caught with good clean shots from the Thai, nether the less Damien fought well and i no will take something out of this fight. Agh Macalpine,, thats right i remember now, Liam was there and was txting me the results as the happened, can't believe i forgot that.

I don't think it's anything to do with judging. Corner men and trainers do have a BIASED opinion over the results.. Really close decisions will always be split in opinion.

Alan keddle has raised some issues regarding Liam Robinson. For the first time in my life I'm going to agree with him!!! If Liam has a million names to sign in on and slags people off 9Which he had denied) from that gym then he cannot be relied on as a good to offer a fair opinion. You should have the balls too say what you want under your own name which I have done many times.

I would want to see a closed doors meeting with the judges and people involved and the contents and conclusions of the meeting to remain confidential so not to damage our sport which we all agree is moving forward. It will stop in it's tracks if people are questioning the judges public. I think in football it's called desent? Maybe wrong and we should have a system of fining agressive behaviour towards referees and judges. Alan, you will need a lot of money too pay your fines if it was implemented haha

I stil think Dan Green has artificially created this to sell the DVD's LOL haha

from that gym then he cannot be relied on as a good judge to offer a fair opinion

i thoroughly agree if i had a million names but i dont, simple as that, read the post again pls mate. this is strange after all your emails from info@kickboxing shop address, anything ive said was not only with my name on the profile and picture but ive also emailed alan direct. anyhow take it easy.

Nige. for once also your post was perfect! I agree entirely! i KNEW THERE WOULD BE SOMETHING WE HAD IN COMMON!

All the fighters representing- keep up the good work. All the promoters putting on the shows keep up the good work. All the judges educating people like myself (who are relatively new to the sport) keep up the good work.

Relatively new people to the sport are grateful for explanations on correct Muay Thai scoring. This is how and why the sport is growing. From what I've seen the names mentioned above are impartial as the examples highlight.

Thaisoon17 have you ever gone under the alias Ajarn Lek or sven, on other forums?

oh k andy mate yes damien fought like a warrior but i think yoksila was just to good he had him numbered no direspect intended to damien he was lumpinee no1 afterall was a great fight

"It is not the winning or losing but the taking part"
Perhaps the senitiment for a interclub but standing in front of A class fighter (who has devouted a good part of his life to Muay Thai and is for him his passion and his lively hood ) and telling them that they lost not in the ring but outside because of politics and external factors is not pleasant.

Also explaining to hundreds of student supporting the fighter (most of whom train in Muay Thai)why a fighter lost makes them disilusioned. You lose you lose that is life and you often learn more from losing then winning .

Excepting defeat (even if you feel hard done bye) in a gracious respectful manner is in the true muay Thai spirt (Sak and now David not to mention kieron are good examples never critical or disrepectful in or out of the ring and they have had some shocking decisions against them)

It falls apon the trainer to argue there case and if there is injustice battle against it .Fair inpartial judging is the way forward ,most of the main gym trainers or senior trainers spend a lot of time in BKK stadiums or whatching taped stadium fights and have a fairly good understanding of how fights are scored (even factoring in the non existent early rounds which set the gambling odds).
Impartial judging can ruin our beloved art .Fighters are angry and resentful the paying audience are confused by baffling decisions that cannot be put down to their lack of education in the finer arts of Muay Thai but hidden agenda.
Huge rifts are caused between camps and disintegration begins I believe we should strive for unification and that begins with honest impartial judging , no slanderus statments on forums, Good healthy debate , constructive cristism , and mutual support will aid our progress in my humble opinion.

As a relative newcomer to the sport could you enlighten me and say what politcs are involed here? I'm not looking to cause trouble here but seems that many seemingly vacuous statememts about the lack of judges imparitality exists. Could I ask where the evidence of this imparitality is? Seems like what I saw was consistant with Muay Thai scoring (from my limited understaning).

I've been to shows where the accused judges have judged and their decisions seemed to be in line with explanations. For my own understanding could someone explain why the decision was incorrect according to rules and scoring criteria that I have read in articles in such as those that appeared Fighters magazine (for example)?

Firstly for whatever faults that people may think that Liam Robinson has,i myself feel that one he sits in the judging seat he is 100% a professional muay thai judge,he scores the match with the criteria he has been trained to use which is the criteria of stadium fights from Thailand(muay thai rules)
i feel it is wrong also to complain of somebody "slagging off" people under an alias or not then launch an asault on him.
I am sure that he scored the matches in an unbiased (as unbiased as any human being can) and professional manner.
I would be pleased to have him judge any of my fights and he has done previously,i just feel that this discussion is also bringing the sport into disrepute airing it on a PUBLIC forum,not only insiders read these posts but many people with a passing interest or an intention to take up the sport.
I for one feel that if i had read this whole thread as an outsider i would think it very unprofessional that it seems the sport does not have a clear way of scoring a boxing match.We do and our highly trained judges try to stick to them as closely as possible.
I would also like to offer my crongratulations to all the boxers involved in what sounds like a great night of A class boxing.

I still say send me the tape.

I am not saying I am the worlds greatest judge but I will give my honest opinion and explanation of it on here.

if our fights are judged differently here than in thailand surely when our boxers fight there we will have to win by KO everytime as we wont know how to win a fight on pts, using effective techniques.

It has to be said that a few decisiosn I have seen in Thailand and the way some Thias fought over here mistified me until I did a judging course with Tony, after which a lot of things made a lot more sense to me. I am not just taking Tony's word on how Muay thai should be judged, I went away and applied the criterea he teaches to fights I had watched before and didn't agree with the results, and after applying this criterea I understood the decisions.

I know for a fact that the "unkind" comments made by Global Breathern against Keddle gym figthers where not made made by Liam, and I know Alan knows this as he told me who he thought it was.

people who know me and know the real truth know i didnt do the stuff from global and thats all that matters, and singtomuay i dont post on any other forums i used to go on chokemuay as liam sor khamsingh but lost the password when they upgraded their server thing and havent been on for sometime, i love to read chokemuay as it is very factual and there are very little arguments on there but dont post at present. AFK guestbook used to be funny but that got shutdown long ago.

Liam,

If Globalbretheren was not ALWAYS you, you were definately involved in it and you also know who the others are asscoiated with the misuse of this account. You, as an adult who is aware of his actions, should take responsibility for your part.

Its a disgrace to our sport how a so-called highly respected judge got involved in this whether he is fully or even part responsible.

You were part of a group that repetitvely and anonymously sought to dig out the Keddle camp, especially Kieran. A very cowardly act. What have we and especially Kieran ever done to you? You know who sent the e-mail, you know who was on the e-mail and you know who posted which posts. If you want to be taken seriously and maybe earn back some of that lost creditibility you would name and shame.

How are we supposed to take you seriously if you are involved in something like this? If an official had been involved with a group that had slagged off your gym and your fighter would you really want him to officiate?

On a seperate note, I would like to add that we do not need an education on the rules. Some of the people voicing their opinion on both David's and Kieran's fight have more experience of Muay Thai and Muay Thai scoring than those that judged the fights. We are entitled to an opinion and we will certainly voice it if we choose to. We are all posting under our true names and will stand by our opinions.

I also completely agree with Bill's post above. We are talking about people's livelihoods and careers here. These were not novice level fights, I appreciate that everyone that walks into the ring is a winner, but when you have clearly won a bout, then you want to be rewarded so. Certainly for David, it was the most important 15 mins of his fight career so far. How can Kieran and Dave earn their livelihoods if their supporters (which they rely on for additional commission in this highly under paid sport) are subject to incorrect decisons. Its very difficult to sell tickets to a disgruntled customer. There were even disgruntled sponsors which are so important if we are trying to grow the sport within the UK.

For the record, i would like to add that historically we have never questioned one of Tony decisons as a judge or a referee and would have no problems whatsoever with Tony officating bouts in the future, even on our own shows. It just so happens that on this particular occassion we disagree with the outcome and have voiced an opinion.

I also dont think it's a bad thing that some real big names form the Muay Thai community have posted on here. Its gives the outsider a real chance to get an insight into our sport; the way we think, the way we judge, the way we are all really passion about our support, which is why we are all posting.

There has also been some posts regarding corner people and trainers being biased. Of course we are and I am unashamedly biased, but so are most people in different ways, if you look at individuals a little closer. Supporters can be biased towards there fighters. Students can be biased towards their camps and instructors. Officials can be biased towards some organisations or races (look at the Japanese K1 MAX judging for example?) Some camps work closer together than other camps, promoters would always want their big ticket sellers to do well etc.... if everyone is scrutinised you can find some sort of bias in most people. The problem boils down to honesty.

Its also very rare (if ever) that you see Bill, Sean, Russell, Alan and myself (amongst others) come onto AX and voice an opinion over a decision with such vigour. Yes, you can find bias amongst all of us, but you will also find complete honesty.

I accept everything that you say above Shaun and believe that everyone is entitled to voice their opinion. The problem is that I think you will find as many people who felt that the decision was the right one as you will find thought it was wrong!

I watched the fight and was asked by someone sitting with me at the end what I though the result was. I said that I thought Samkor JUST edged it but what an incredible performance by Dave. That is not due to biasness or not understanding the sport (we all think that we know what we are talking about) or any political motive - I have never met Dave and get on very well with Bill Judd. The fight was certainly close enough that either way the decision went could not have been called a robbery.

The people who are complaining about the judging on saturday are all from the same gym as the fighters or are their supporters. They are bound to be biased and passionate about their fighters. Anyone with a different opinion is not attacking anyone, just stating it the same as you.

In Bills post above he seems to be accusing the Judges of being biased and making a "political" decision (I'm not sure what that means really)and there seems to be suggestions that because some people are friendly with others there was something dodgy going on. I really think that this is not helpful to the situation or to the sport in general in the UK. This suggestion seems to be underlying a lot of the posts from people who thought the decision was wrong.

Tony Myers is well liked in the UK and gets on well with many people but is 100% straight down the middle with all his dealings and would have no reason to be biased. His decision was the same as Craig O'Flynn (and the same as how I judged the fight too for what its worth) and Craig O'Flynn has no affiliation or relationship with anyone in the UK.

I dont want to get into an argument and this isnt really any of my business as I was only there as a spectator and non of my fighters are involved but as I stated above I am concerned that the implications being made are likely to be damaging.

Fair enough Richard, but just for the record - Sean, Bill, the Keddles and Russ are all from different gyms with differing promotions. The same people that are saying the decision was fair appear to be from people with closer associations with the officials than either KO or Keddles.

id rather take blame for the whole lot than be known as a grass to my mates, if they wanna come on here and say they did it thats up to them but i know for a fact that i didnt slate kieron on here so thats good enough for me. with regard to the email i dont know what you mean about who sent an email and whos on an email seriously, the only email i know about is the one i sent to you ages ago. I take responsibility for setting up and distributing that account about 15 months ago i think it was? but thats it.

on an entirely different note...

Shaun Keddle writes:
On a seperate note, I would like to add that we do not need an education on the rules. Some of the people voicing their opinion on both David's and Kieran's fight have more experience of Muay Thai and Muay Thai scoring than those that judged the fights

--------------------------------

I disagree with both statements in the paragraph above and also stand by that opinion with my name to the post.

One of the first things that has to be accepted before we can go further is that just because somone has been involved in Muay Thai for ex number of years in the Uk does not mean they know diddly squat about judging Muay thai as it should be judged. just because A B and C agree and they ahve been agreeing for 20 teays doesn't mean they have got it right.

I've ben invlovled in Muay thai for 22 years, and I learnt the proper way to judge two years ago! Or should I say I accepted the proper way to judge two years ago! I had heard it said and even been on a course organised by a Master Sken with a Muay Thai judge from Lumpinee, but at the time his explanition were so in contrast to what I was learning that I couldn't accept them. It took a while and some research of my own before I accepted them.

I think if peole were to say they deisagreed witht eh judges fine, but to come on and say that the judges were baised, or influenced by others is to accuse very well respected people of either Bias or incompetence. And the result of that is that well repsected, well trained, knowledgable people are going to think twice before accepting an invitation to judge!

By creating the way you are, you are in fact atempting to influence the future judging of these officials. It may not be your intention, but it is a possible result of an action.

And the only people complaining are from the camps involved

Craig O'Flynn has no association with anyone and gave exactly the same score. I think that should be enough to dispell any suggestion of biasness.

Some of my guys are friendly with some of Tonys and have done a bit of training together but Tony (and I for that matter) dont have anything to do with that as they are all animals and we couldnt keep up. Even the training sessions were arranged while Tony was in Thailand, and I was away.

And anyway non of that could possibly have any bearing on this fight or he decision.

Two unconnected judges gave exactly the same decison so I genuinely thaink that any suggestion of biasness or politics are out of order.

there are some photos on here:
www.muaythaiplaza2004.com

Hook, Line, Sinker.

You can say what you like and deny all you like - you were still involved in this and therefore are still partly responsible. You have a chance to at least rectify this and you have refused that opportunity. On top of that you referred to them as your 'mates' and now you choose to cover for them. Admitting that you set up and distributed the account in the first place, means that you started the whole thing off. Be responsible for the outcomes of your actions. Bearing in mind that you set the account up, you could have contacted AX from the start, explained the situation and got them to suspend the account.

Maybe you require a little education in honesty and integrity.

shaun i did i got the account taken straight down by posting a big pair of tits on an off topic thread cuz i knew it would get banned did this for 2 reasons 1 was the abuse i didnt wanna get blamed for and 2 was that i didnt want people thinking sandys posts were mine. maybe ur right i did need educating but ive had that, this was an awful long time ago but i still believe covering is better than grassing. dont see a chance to rectify this, alan already knows who was posting aswel im 90% sure of that.

please explain what hook line sinker applies to and also what emali u r on about?

Liam be professional rise above this and walk away mate..

There is no doubt about the knowledge and experience of Tony ,Craig and Nash (the second most experienced judge after Tony I believe)that is not an issue.

I will not discuss the hidden agenda on this forum (But would be happy to do so in private and yes there is substance ).Tony has in fact run a judges course for my fighters on more then one occassion (I managed to get a good insight into his interpretation of the boards rules) I found him competent. It is vital the fighters know what the judges on the circuit are looking for !

I thought long and hard about voicing my views . I concluded That bringing the issue on to a public forum was the right course of action.

Unless fair and impartial judging is applied free from politics and other influences then yes as Richard stated a rift will occur.

What a shame just as Muay Thai in the England shines this should have been a time to celebrate. A fantastic win for Steven over the legendary Jomhod. what a Star S1 champ WBC champ and former WMC champ . Damien ,David and Kieron were outstanding.

English Muay Thai has so much talent old and new If i start to name them I will miss some one but we know who the established stars and the rising stars are.

The inferstructure is in place ie regular interclubs , amateur and proffesional shows through out the year and all over the country. tv exposure, media attention radio, mags . more full time gyms etc.....

England must now be in the premier league of Muay Thai

ive been reading this thread for the last few days and just had to say a few things, sorry if i offend anyone but tuff. firstly congratulations to dan green on what sounds like a great show. Secondly well done to all the fighters who took part, i have shared the ring and dressing room with a lot of the names mentioned and all of them deserve credit for there respective fights.
I am concerned tho at all the arguing and blaming that is going on over judges decision etc.. At the end of the day all the fights were won and lost, someone has to loose, not always happy about it it is part of our job as semi or professional fighters/coaches/judges etc to accept this fact. opinions are like arseholes, everyone has got one, so my advice is to stick to yours accept the decision and move on. Otherwise we as a thai boxing community will never get along and therefore the sport and hard work of us all will be in vien.

As ive said before, so have others i am impartial to Alans Gym always have been just because we have trained the same fighters (much the same as Mr Smith and Tony Myers)it dont mean we always agree but yes there is a affiliation (spelling) as mates again the same as other gyms and instructors on here .. as has already been said there are certain people who think that the only ones that feel hard done by are the ones that are aggrieved by the decisions but by the same token it seems to me that others are staying in unison also .... six of one and half a dozen of the other .

in regards to other issues Rich i agree in part to your post about walking away and being professional BUT we are all grown men and women and must take full and proper responsibity for ALL our actions be them good or bad.
i cant ever remember speaking to Liam since the Tower but when all the gobshite was going around about global wot ever the dickhead name was you can be sure i had my say ...so again i can see where people are feeling miffed about the use of alias's.
im not gonna go into to much detail but on more than 1 occaison ive been guilty by association and the nice people in silly wigs said it was called "onus probendi" which means burden of guilt.

some people like me some dont i live with it ...the point i make is whether the Bad Co lot like me or not i dont care the fact of the matter is we can now at least chat in person with out wanting to get extremely violent ;-) as was Mr Cadden and Mr Showers last sat to be fair bloody good luck to em it was good to see i also had a quick word with rich and all was good but we only got to that point because all was aired and eventually dropped .

Again the point i make is all that were concerned took responsibity for there actions and sorted it out .... Who knows we might even get an invite up to leeds ...maybe when they get back in the premiership eh lads.


Russ

ok rdouble, last post on this thread and i wont be checking it to read or i will def. be 2 tempted to post. please refrain from emailing me content from the thread or txting me it yes you know who u r its not funny anymore. Shaun etc the truth is there in my 1st post take it or leave it but i have nothing against keddles esp. tat2, mike, hunks, fenwick, hook, jd. And kieron ive never spoken 2 in my life and def. wouldnt have any prob whatsoever.

you had to get that one in didnt ya Russ!

grrrrr..... :)

you will be waiting along time then russ cos leeds aint comin up anytime soon...lol if you fancy a div1 game tho...(p.s callin it the championship is gay)

Theres probably more chance of one than the other but I wont say which!

Next time we do a how in Leeds you are welcome. Same gores for Alan, Kieren and anyone at your gym. Only thing is I dont think your lot would keep up with ours at the after show party.

It will be along time b4 u go to leeds russ if ur waitin for that 2 happen.ha ha

Mr Smith u have just started another war, who can drink more us up north or them down south here we go again,ha ha

think that would be pretty even..

Greek st. or Prohabition (spelling?) have both had a wedge of cash from me over the last few years!
and I am from keddles!

Why not come to Leeds when the Blades and us are in the same division again. Shall we pencil a date in for next May Russ? And it wont be us getting promoted:)

Bill, I can see your point and those of others but how can you say we are in the Premier League of MT in this country?

We may have the fighters to be classed in that bracket but that is only a part of the sport. The entire background of MT in this country must be being laughed at around the world right now following this thread. What goes on behind the scenes is equally if not more important than what happens in the ring and when the top people in the sport in this country are openly arguing on the internet like its some yahoo chatroom, then it doesnt really give a good impression does it. Thats not a dig at anyone, just how it looks and I dont really think anyone could disagree if you read this thread from an onjectionable stance.

Well done to everyone involved with this show. A real step forward for MT in the UK.

We are a small close knit family and we do fight.Agreed not the best forum perhaps but never the less I feel confident that The good that comes out of this will heal a lot of wounds and prevent further damage .


Why could this have not been resolved behind closed doors?
I wish it could have been.

At least a massive positive is that it has all being aired now at the start of Englands real emergence and not a few years down the line when all the hard work would have been wasted and things would have started crumbling. I reckon everyone who can have an impact in the sport can now move it forward with a clearer understanding and hopefully proper communication of what needs to be done to make it really work.

We are a small country so should stand united to take English MT forward. We have shown we can compete with the best out there internationally already. The domestic level is so high that if only all gyms could work together, producing top match ups in the ring, then when it comes to facing a top Thai/world ranked fighter, it would make the job so much easier (especially if you want to win on points cos we would know the rules then as well :)

Blimey, it has been two days and I havent posted! a few interesting points.
It absolutely amazing that people continue to refer to the two judges in the fight and seem to completely forget Nash Keshwala, the third!!! IF history serves me well Nash is an experienced judge and referee originally Thailand IFMA trained!! did people forget this??? He scored the fight to Kieran to win by one round. He is schooled under the same system as Tony and as far as I am concerned knows the job very well. It really pisses me off when he gets left out like he doesnt matter. What a terrible thing to do. Tony has spoken, as well as Richard like he wasnt there!

In the event of Kierans fight being a draw simply because Craig and Tony saw it that way what about nashs opinion? does that count for nothing? Am I supposed to believe that all three judges should see all fights the same way? what a load of crap!!! History dicates that this isnt the case world wide and in the event of a draw on this world title and given that the Thai conceeded defeat the fact that one of the judges selected for this event; namely Nash Keshwala saw fit to give the fight to Kieran you would think that would have been the case. Afterall, stephan himself quoted

'So, looking at this, England should not have been disadvantaged. To be honest, in Thailand when fights are even, the result will go to the home crowd, the English boys and girls who have fought in Thailand are well aware of this. All the Thais who fought were top-class so for any English boy to go the distance and indeed make it a controversial decision is a great achievement. This is something all the gyms should be proud of '

I have a great deal of respect for Mr. Fox who has helped me on many occasions but but am very confused by this comment and very worried to the future of thai fighters coming here. In the event of the fight being close the local lad should get the fight? if this is the case then Kieran should have won surely? I cannot be happy to spend the time and money we have in training Kieran (in Thailand) and then have a bad descision even in our own country. Am I to tell all my fighters that unless they absolutely hammer there opponent or knock them out as Liam has suggested ( quite rightly) that we will not win? I feel like giving up to be honest with that fact! This brings into disrepute everything said about scoring by this statement. I am hearing the words that a local lad will win if close therefore we have to ko to win or have a lanslide.

If the scoring system works then there should never be the need for this 'awarding to the local lad' the amusing thing is that in this case the local lad was from 6000 miles away!. another point is that at world level as most of us know the fights are very close and so therefore we depend upon that precision judging to make the difference. IF a foreigner fights a good level Thai and it is close am I to believe the thai will win? if this is the case then we need to review the scoring system to be acceptable worldwide. What may work in Thailand doesnt work here as was obvious on saturday. The fact that Tim Isli, Bill Judd, Sean Toomey, Russ Connor and mnay other instructors saw it Kierans way tells you that. I also pose this question to Mr. Smith. if you had to chose a winner cos it wasnt a mad world title who would you have given it to? given the fact the thai conceeded defaet and one judge gave it to kieran? and remember he is the local lad (as suggested earlier).

Also R.double. You train with Liam Robinson dont you? therefore you wouldnt be able to see the error of his ways. He has openly slagged of Kieran and other emmbers of my gym with nasty comments. We havbe never done anything to him. He should confess who his so called mates are. he is right I do know the others!! one being from bad. co!!!! I wonder who that is? My rift with them is over now but that isnt the point really Liam as you are supposed to be a neutral ref arent you? you cannt think that what you have done is neutral at all. Just cowradly acts that I will discuss with you when I see you. I would just love to know why you did it and what we did to you. I m surprised you conjured the courage to get in the ring. Global was a dreadful thing to do and I have still not had an apology for it. I hope you get banned permanently for it. I hope your instructor sees fit to 'educate' you in the ways of muay thai you sack of shit!

alan in all fairness nash did have 2 page 3 girls sittin either side of him i think the last thing he was looking at was the fights hehehe

i just thankful of how good show was and the opportunty to see the calibre of fighters we see right in the uk. also a lot of northerners got to see just how strong the south are ahahahaha lol

I heard tonight a couple of scottish boys fought on this show, who fought, who against, and how did they get on?

one whose name i dont recall sorry got finished in 3rd he dislocated shoulder he fought danny harrison from crawley

Alan if you want to keep this going and you're pissed off at anything I've said, call me and we can discuss it.

yeah, two scottish fighters took part - Dave Ewing from BASE muay thai lost a points decision to Yves Wait from wakeling's gym, and Davy Macintosh from Caledonian Muay Thai was stopped by the referee after landing badly on his right shoulder. To his credit, Davy had injured the shoulder the previous week but didn't want to pull the fight at such short notice. A few thank-yous from the scottish crew - Andy BC, thanks for your help in the corner, Dan Green for the invite and the show, and Brian Calder for driving us back to Glasgow after the show in under 6 hours, which must be some kind of record, given that it took me ten hours to drive us down to London...

In amongst the bickering, much of the point has been lost.
Alan Keddles earlier comments reference Thailand judging and betting etc was spot on.
This is an evolving world. Some of you want to become more and more obscure and traditional, yet at the same time feel that the sport deserves better recognition. Are you speaking authentically or globally?

Tony et al. I totally respect your view point and stand point but unfortunatly this will not take Muay Thai to the next level. Sure it will make it totally authentic but in turn will alienate the sport from the masses.

We are not preaching to the converted. In order to move forward we are trying to attract new followers and whether you people like it or not the reality is this.
Joe public wants to see a fight. They do not want to see 30 Ram Muays that pad out a 15 fight show to about 7 hours.
They also don't want to think too hard. They will try to understand a few things about it like knees scoring higher than punches etc etc, but by and large they want a fight with an obvious winner, or they will get confused. Our job is not to educate them too heavily. They will surely lose interest too soon. Jesus, educated people are argueing the toss about judging on here so what chance has Joe public got of understanding.
The average punter has a very short attention span. If they turn on the TV and see Thai boxers doing nothing for the first two rounds you will lose them forever. Much better for them to switch over to UFC where the fight rarely goes two rounds.

This "arthouse" style judging, whilst being authentic is fairly irrelevent to any other country in the world other than Thailand and it would appear England at the moment.

If you fought in France, Holland, Australia, USA etc etc fights would generally be judged in a western manner with Thai variations. Why? Because the audience we are trying to attract in order to move forward understand what is going on.

Sorry guys but if you really want to move this sport forward you are going to have to compromise. Gone are the days when Muay Thai was a Thai based sport. It is now global and as such will have to bend a bit in order to appeal to that global audience.
Why do you think that MMA has eclipsed Muay Thai in few short years???
Modern thinking - a new sport that is not disappearing up it's own authentic ass. You can knock it all you like for the boring groundwork etc. But it's fairly easy to understand, no one is argueing about decisions and it is basking in global acclaim.

In reality Muay Thai is potentially more exciting than MMA due to the fact that fights will generally go on longer and can produce more action. Very exciting......except the audience figures don't reflect that, and the more authentic you get (with the judging) the more you will turn the audience off.

Please, I'm not here for a row with anyone. I wasn't there at the weekend and I don't care about the decisions.
I am a businessman who has been involved in Muay Thai for twenty odd years. I'm just trying to look at the bigger picture. If you don't bend and evolve, you will remain in the minority division moaning about how you should be recognised forever.
Sorry, it's the truth!

I reckon I'd like to know how Muay Thai should be scored properly. If it's not scored as it is in Thailand then how can it truly be called Muay Thai? I think I speak for many people who want to get an understanding of Muay Thai and not something else.

If judges don't use Muay Thai scoring criteria then how can British fighters be expected to know how to fight in Thailand (this point has already been made)?

If we don't score it properly then it becomes something else.

I also think the comparison with MMA is a bit different. MMA is also chasing the heels of boxing in terms of popularity so it's understandable that Muay Thai may not be as popular as boxing has been the combat sport at the fore for longer in this counrty and the US.

I could not have put it better myself.

Regarding The Bulldog post

I feel the comparison is spot on. Boxing is irrelevent to the debate as it has already "made it". I am speaking of the rise in popularity of MMA in a short space of time compared to Muay Thai and the reasons why.

It's all very well speaking of Muay Thai not being Muay Thai if we judge it differently but the point I make is this.
We are trying to bring this sport to a greater audience in the western world, not teach fighters how to win in Thailand. If th

oops sorry pressed the wrong button..............if the fighters, coaches camps etc want to learn the way to win in Thailand, I am all for it.
The average paying punter and newcomer wants to see a fight and an obvious winner. They are probably not even aware that the sport originates in Thailand, and are also not bothered.

I fully understand all aspects of Muay Thai and accept the judging system.

The greater audience will not, no matter how much you try to educate them as it is too complicated and often leads to stagnent periods in a contest.
Once again, sorry. I love traditional Muay Thai, but it's the truth

I bet you could have Sean, you silver fingered keyboard devil

spot on bulldog,when i was in school we had a maths course which included fractions if there was 5parts of something and joe bloggs had 3 then he had the bigger fraction,how come in thaiboxing you can belt hell out of someone for 3 rounds and still lose to someone who wins 2 rounds because someone hasnt scored the first round,whats the point of being in the ring and fighting the first round,i like most people love the thailand people and country but i have watched stadium fights in bkk,that have been stopped after the 3rd round due to betting corruption,i have also seen fighters not fight the 5th round properly because they didnt feel it was worth getting injured as they had already lost and had to fight again the next week to get money,whos to say the judges over there arent taking backhanders all the time,is this what england wants for the sport?this is just an oppinion that i share with bulldog and dont want to be involved in the argueing as i wasnt there,but i have seen dave and kieran perform and know that they dont care if they win or lose usually so why are they kicking up this time??just a thought,nath

Back on old topic re judging Thai way will not make it popular with the public.. this is do do, whenever I have explained it the public appreciate it. It's an old argument used by people who can't accept Muay thai is Muay Thai and therefor should be scored as it is in Thailand. Any other way and it's NOT the same sport

Thai Boxing will never be as popular as MMA or Boxing because the Ritual Music, Ram Muay, Wai Kru and ritualistic nature of it, aggravates a lot of people, who just want to see a fight. Simon Rutz gets 20,000 people at his shows in Amsterdam, due to the fact that he has MMA bouts on as well, and a lot of K1 bouts. I wonder how many of the audience at a UK show, come to see the Wai Kru and Ram Muay. The point is also being made about judging in Thailand, but are not a great deal of the results controlled by the gambling, i am sure that judging is not always the same, and a lot of back handers take place,as Thailand is well known for its corruption. Sorry if to some this is heresy, but it has to be said.

Enitirely agree with you Dazza. The people you refer to are people such as myself.

" Any other way and it's NOT the same sport" -exactly.

Bulldog, maybe I never made the point as well as I should have. Ultimately I think that although Muay Thai is not as big as MMA and has not grown at the rate that MMA has, it is nevertheless growing in popularity. The show on Saturday is testament to this as are the growing number of UK fighters that are emerging as genuinely world class as is the size and number of shows in the UK. We only need to look at the Wolves show (and others) to show the increase in quality all the time. I think the point is that Muay Thai is actually growing but perhaps not at the rate that MMA is. :)

Just to clarify when I say " The people you refer to are people such as myself" I mean when Dazza says "whenever I have explained it the public appreciate it."

I understood you Rodders. the recent shows have been a great success but it is the rate of growth I question.

Dazza. I fully accept that Muay Thai is Muay Thai. but it won't move forward on that basis in a quick enough fashion. It will remain pure, but in the minority. We can't juat talk about the people we have explained the rules too. we have to look at the mass reaction, which is very very slow growth.

I stand by my comments that Liam Robinson is a sound and compitent judge,i myself cannot remain impartial while judging fights with fighters or styles that i prefer so i dont do it,in the same way in one respect you are correct i will not be able to remain impartial as to any slur outside the judjing on Liam he is a stablemate a friend and a brother to me,i myself will refrain from commenting further

where did that come from?

I agree Dazza.

Pro boxing is dying in this country because everyone knows that the scoring systen is flawed. You can win a boxing fight by running away and tapping someone on the nose more times than he taps you. Power and effect doesnt come into it.

Thai boxing has the opportunity to take the market by storm. It is spectator friendly, dynamic and has the "crash factor" that the public want.

The rules are simple but people havent been told them.

The average Joe sees 2 guys in a ring and thinks that Boxing rules apply.

We have to educate the people and make this sport fly!

For goodness sake...I understand how Sumo is scored cos they told me on the telly!

I disagree with some things that have been said on here....

All techniques score equally in my understanding. A good knee scores better than a crap punch. A good punch scores less than a crap knee etc etc. The fact is that a good body kick has greater potential for causing damage than a good punch so most times a good kick scores better than a good punch. But in reality all techniques score the same.
Over time people will see more good body kicks than they will see good punches and can therefore start to think that kicks score more than punches...but they dont. They might happen more but dont score more.

Think about it!

"Thai Boxing has the opportunity to take the market by storm"
I think we said that in 1978, and we still havn't.

MMA has, and i don't even like it much, I just have to aknowledge it!

Sumo - you may understand it but it's hardly mainstream

Dave. Even your explanation was confusing, and it seems that you are also questioning the judging. What hope for Joe Public?

boxing is dying!!!!!!! with all due respect thats crap, and it bugs me everytime its said on here. No other combat sport even comes close to its level of prominence. Boxing is on mainstream TV in every major western country, fighters earn millions whilst loads earn thousands, there are hugely successful magazines such as boxing news, ring, boxing monthly, etc, etc whilst the circulation of FIGHTERS, the 'trade' paper for MT, KB, etc sits somewhere between that of knitting world and fishing for beginners!!...Boxing has major personalites in every era, De la hoya, Mayweather, Hatton, Amir Khan being just a few of todays. Thousands of people saw the career defining fights of Calzaghe and Hatton live in major venues, never mind the millions on TV....whilst this thread is about a major MT show where it seems more people are discussing it than actually watched it!...Get real, Boxing is still light years ahead of any other combat sport,and its MMA (as has been said) thats closest to it.

One point I would just put forward for consideration is this...If the people in Boxing had had the attitiude of some of those in MT we would still be watching the likes of Tom Cribb and Tom Molineaux fighting 30 rounds bare knuckle in a field somewhere.

30 rounds Bare knuckle mmmmmmmmmm where do i sign up .........lol

Colin, sorry but it is, and 1978 saw the inroduction of MT to the Uk so in comparison toboxing its come a long way (when was boxng first introduced anyone?) Bulldog...you didn't think about it

First of all, David, great fight and i'm proud to be training muay thai in your classes.

Secondly, MT will only rise in popularity as long as MMA is rising in popularity since MT is the most well rounded striking art and pretty much all MMA fighters train in it to some extent. MMA was what exposed me to MT first and I currently don't train in anything else. I'm sure many other people will enter the sport the same way.

Thirdly, if you think these forums are hurting MT you should check out sherdog.com MMA forums, people bitch on there all the time and it's clearly not hurting MMA, it's often healthier for people to have a place to bitch about things which might otherwise drive them away from the sport.

Lastly, Boxing is being killed by obviously unjust decisions (boxing robberies such as boxing robberies as Lewis-Holyfield I, Saxton-Gavilan, Jones-Si-Hun Park, Leonard-Hearns II and now Quartey-Forrest), boxing promoters who won't make the "super fights" happen, fighters taking dives and a failure of the boxing community to embrace the new generation's form of communication.. the internet. If I want to know about something, I go to the internet. Your dad may have read the newspaper or watched TV to get informed but if MT is to appeal to the younger generation it needs to embrace the internet as MMA has. (which by the way, is notorious for its legions of 'keyboard warriors'). You can say all you want about Boxing being the biggest fight sport ever but at the end of the day it's Boxing promoters that are puzzling over why the crowds of big prize fights have become fewer and fewer, pay-per-view buy-rates have slumped to embarrassing lows and how this “human cockfighting nonsense” that is MMA is gaining ascendancy.

I'd love to see MT get big but sadly there is nobody to take the lead like there is in MMA and from what I can see here, MT is plagued with many of the same shortcomings as boxing is.

Also R.double. You train with Liam Robinson dont you? therefore you wouldnt be able to see the error of his ways. He has openly slagged of Kieran and other emmbers of my gym with nasty comments. We havbe never done anything to him. He should confess who his so called mates are. he is right I do know the others!! one being from bad. co!!!! I wonder who that is? My rift with them is over now but that isnt the point really Liam as you are supposed to be a neutral ref arent you? you cannt think that what you have done is neutral at all. Just cowradly acts that I will discuss with you when I see you. I would just love to know why you did it and what we did to you. I m surprised you conjured the courage to get in the ring. Global was a dreadful thing to do and I have still not had an apology for it. I hope you get banned permanently for it. I hope your instructor sees fit to 'educate' you in the ways of muay thai you sack of shit!


doesnt that make you just as bad now?

As a newcomer to Muay Thai (4 years training and watching fights) all this bickering and name calling is demoralising and alarming. Its certainly doesn't appear to be in the spirit of the sport / art that I was taught by my instructor and head of camp Master Sken.

The disputes need to be supported and quickly but it can never be sorted on a forum, it needs to happen for the good of the sport.

Congratulations to all fighters on the show, sounded like a corker.

One step forward 2 steps back..

First World Heavyweight boxing champion - John L Sullivan 1892

First $1m boxing bout - 1921 Dempsey v Carpentier (what would that be the equivalent to nowadays?)

A gap of 30 yrs between the first champion and the first $1m dollar bout, apprx 100 years ago.

MT in the UK started in 1978 going by the above, 30 yrs ago, and promoters are still losing money at shows, never mind taking gate receipts of a million even in this eras exchange rate.

Boxing is huge and to say otherwise is ridiculous. The purses are still massive as is the appeal. I am sure we have all had girlfriends/friends, who generally dont take much interest in sport, coming round at 4am to watch Tyson v Lewis etc. Would that ever happen if we told the same people it was Buakow v Dekkers? Not a chance, they would be sound asleep in bed and even us fans of the sport would have to watch it on Youtube a week later.

I love the sport but I think some people need a reality check. Its a martial art, a niche, and as long as it is seen in the same guise as karate and judo then it will remain like that and have very limited public appeal. This is fine if you want to keep teaching and fighting MT, just dont expect the situation to change because it wont matter what you do, simply because you need to attract people in the first place to be educated and the people will never be there.

MMA does well because it is simple, if its not a tap out or ko to win its simply the fighter who visually has won the fight, not a comparison of techniques.

Dave, get a none MT friend to read your post above and see if they understand what you mean because even your attempt at a simple rule explanation is going all around the houses and is confusing.

Dont think boxing all round is dying but it is in the heavyweights..

Boxing is massive and with ITV involved and superfights like Mayweather v Baldomir its looking good,to say otherwise is silly if you don,t follow it you,ll never know about it,muay thai is great but to reach the masses like this firmly established sport i think won,t happen,more so if people don,t stop calling each other and ego,s take over the students make the gym not the coach.

You are deflecting the argument here.
Bayan - good post.Agree with most of what you say
Dave - (hope you dont have a sore head this morning), I did think about it.

You are almost justifying the very slow progress of Muay Thai because Boxing has it's ups and downs and has been around for so long.

nice post phil

with regards to the post by Bayan., Your comments about 'bad decisions' is way off mark. First off, the 'examples' you give Lewis-Holyfield I, Saxton-Gavilan, Jones-Si-Hun Park, Leonard-Hearns II and now Quartey-Forrest...five fights spread from the last 50 yeears, I doubt most under 30 here even know who Johnny Saxton or Kid Gavilian was....Holyfield/lewis was never the bad decision that the Lewis PR machine said and anyone who knows boxing who watched the Quartey-Forrest will tell you it was close yes, robbery? NO.

No super-fights?? well how about Jones-Tarver, Pacquaio v Barrera and Morales (3 times!), Mosley-Vargas, Lacy-Calzaghe, Winky Wright-Taylor and of course Corrales-Castillo. I could go on but these are just from the recent past.

Fighter taking dives?? who, where?? thats crap....

what has my 'defence' of boxing got to do with this thread? nothing really, just that people have to get, as Phil said a reality check. If this was football, Boxing is Chelsea v Manchester Utd, I'm afraid MT is still Bolton v Colchester!.

i meant Brighton not bolton...don't want sandy coming after me LOL

Less of the bolton thanks colin, haha

when julie fought on sunday against sam,i told her before the fight started " pace the first round and feel the fight out, at least one one of the judges will score a 10/10 round regardless of how hard you fight so dont overwork",does that sound right to anyone?? or does this sound better.

"dont let her pace herself,you can do 5rnds flat out easy,make her work harder and we will see who has trained harder,strike hard with every shot,you have come to win,so let her know she is in a fight,she is here to take your title".

i enjoy coming up the line to attend shows and nearly everyone i have met in mt are a great bunch,i try my best to train my fighters as hard as possible to match the standard of fighters in london,midlands etc,but it seems strange that i have arrived at shows and actually worried about who the judges are on the day regardless of how well my fighter has trained,i admit i am uneducated in mt scoring,but i too have had fighters that i thought have won as they have clearly taken 3of 5 rnds,this is just my oppinion and i have the upmost respect for tony,nash,liam as judges and personalities to the sport.

One of the things i see is the "pantomime" factor of MMA (can also be viewed as disrespect), but it does play in to the hands of all these supressed "keyboard warriors" (in something they can join in with). Fact is most of these people would crumble if they got in the ring/cage.

I believe MMA bouts finish in a couple of rounds due to the rawness of the sport, natural skills, aggression and match making.
The fact that you can do so much (stand-up/grapple/ground work) means that ppl in this sport will not come up to the same standard in their stand-up game as a pure MT fighter (as they are trying to take so many more techniques on board)...so more gaps appear, hence more KO's.
A MT fighter will not have as gooder hands as a pure boxer, as they will also be considering kicks/knees/elbows etc...
I dont think you can compare MMA/Boxing/MT.

As a point of reference the Queensbury rules were developed in 1867, so we are a good 140 years behind, in history/marketing/sale-ability etc...but the fact is we have made some dramatic improvements in the past few years with TV and satellite coverage.

MuayThai is about being respectful and humble.
There are NO great fighters, just great trainers (and their trainers before them) who can bring the best out in individuals. Whats done is done, accept&move on, look forward, not back...but learn from the experience so you know how to deal with those individuals in the future. You cant change the past.
Keep it positive. x :)

As a marketing development should we develop English Kick-Fighting, as the Cambodians have developed Kymer Boxing? That way we can develop rules that people percieve as European Thaiboxing (with elbows)?
For the record, I enjoy and prefer FTR and MuayThai judging, as I think I have a decent enough understanding of it.

"""Back on old topic re judging Thai way will not make it popular with the public.. this is do do, whenever I have explained it the public appreciate it. It's an old argument used by people who can't accept Muay thai is Muay Thai and therefor should be scored as it is in Thailand. Any other way and it's NOT the same """

I think it's a cop out you stating ""It's an old argument used by people who can't accept Muay thai is Muay Thai""

I can accept Muay Thai the way it is and I love it for the way it is. But to say that that the thai way of judging is not too confusing for the general public and will not hold back the sports growth in terms of attracting new fans and enjoying the same sort of growth as MMA has is akin to burying your head in the sand.

I've tried explaining it to my freinds; quite a few of whom actually did it with me when we 16 for a few years and they struggled to understand the reasoning behind the judging (especially not scoring the first round) and got bored pretty quick with my attempts at explaning why. There lies the problem; the VAST majority of people will not want to educate themselves on the finer points of MT scoring when all most of them want to see is a good scrap from which they can tell who is the winner at the end.

On the rare occasions I get them to watch it when they come round they can't believe that "they do sweet fu*k all for the first three minutes".

Dazza either your friends are very bright (which I hate to remind you can not be said of Joe Public) or you're sh*t hot at explaining stuff.

During the 70's, the films of Bruce Lee and TV series like "Kung Fu" (with Carradine) generated a massive interest in the disciplines of karate and kung fu - and dojo memberships swelled worldwide. Films like Raging Bull and Rocky (No's 1-6 or whatever) were enormous commercial success but I don't think boxing gyms filled up as a result. Boxing as a spectator sport will always be bigger than boxing as a participant sport - muay thai in the west being a relatively young sport, suffers possibly from the opposite, ie, there are loads of people who train, but it is tough to fill up a venue; Whereas with MMA not so many people training, but put on a big event in the UK and it will fill up the Albert Hall. Depends how you want MT to develop -would you rather have a venue with about 500 proper muay thai enthusiasts who understand and appreciate the subleties and techniques or have 10,000 joe publics in a massive arena who know bugger all and just want to see some blood? And chances are you might have to tone down the rules, get rid of the Ram Muay etc... You could have commercial success but lose the value of the art eg look at the shit boxing they have on Eurosport in Germany, thousands of people turn up to watch sub standard overweight eastern europeans have a brawl. There's money in that for the promoter but it has downgraded boxing's standing and the audience have no appreciation of boxing.Look at the shite on K-1 - Hong Man Choi v Akebono, Sapp et al - but the Japs love it, the freak factor and the place gets packed. Entertainment = spectacle and larger than life characters = interest = $$$ - this is why boxing/K1 at the top is so huge. Dunno if MT would ever get that big.It is a niche sport but it is growing in popularity, there are some people on here who have put on great shows over the years.

how about getting a couple of chavs from the local shopping centre and offer to pay them double their giro so smack the pony outta each other wearing 4oz gloves (to ensure a bitta blood)...and sell tickets for £30-a-pop...hey-ho, there ya go!


...or do we want to develop the SPORT?

...can someone translate that??? :)

""how about getting a couple of chavs from the local shopping centre and offer to pay them double their giro so smack the pony outta each other wearing 4oz gloves (to ensure a bitta blood)...and sell tickets for £30-a-pop...hey-ho, there ya go!""

I don't think anyome is suggesting that. Where did that come from?

I think the point people are trying to get across is that adhering strictly to the thai way of scoring will ultimately hold back the sport when it comes to mass market appeal. It confuses people; including people who have been involved for years. It takes some dedication to actually take the time to come to terms with it/learn the intricacies of it. Time and dedication your average punter will not put in. FACT!!

Know one’s saying we should radically change the rules; just that some of the more idiosyncratic aspects of scoring; like not scoring the first round may not be relevant over here where gambling isn’t an influence.


Also if you dare question even the merest detail of the Thai way of scoring you’re pretty much accussed (in a round about way) of hating the sport and wanting to change it by the “Sawat De Kup Mafia”. It doesn’t make a good breeding ground for healthy debate.

lol

sorry!
How about we get two ill-educated social rejects, offer to pay them 2x their social security hand-outs, and get them to fight each other while wearing 4oz gloves to ensure a bloodbath and sell tickets for £30 per person, to satisfy the paying publics thirst for gratutious violence and repressed anger...


...or do we want to develop the SPORT?

The posed scenario came from the trade off of popularity between:
satisfying the "neanderthal blood-lust understanding" of "Joe-public" V the art form of the physical chess match of muay-thai.

This is not intended to be condescending to Joe-Public, but if people are interested in the sport, then there are ways of going on courses, reading up and gaining a better understanding of the rules.

I have just tried to summise the discussion people have had in comparing MMA with MT....just a thought.

lol, got it thanks.

I wouldnt say I was part of the "sawadee-khrap mafia" or an "MT Nazi"...I think thats a bit harsh! :)

Andy & Noi - good posts

Tha comparrison with MT and MMA is not about the styles, it is the reasons behind the fast development of one compared to the other and perhaps the open mindedness of MMA pioneers compared to MT traditionalists. After all it is a new sport with no direct history to speak of. So perhaps that has promoted an open minded attitude that, Love it or hate it, has allowed it to develop at a faster pace.

I think the discussion might be moving off at a tangent.
It seems to me that the original disagreement arises from different interpretations of current Muay Thai rules. It seems that 3 experienced judges were in disagreement over the scoring of some very important fights. (Vital for the careers of some of the fighters concerned). It also seems that some vastly experienced coaches (as experienced if not more so than the judges) are also in disagreement and coming into two camps which appear to follow certain political lines too. I think particular exception was taken to the use of the word "Educate" addressed at 2 instructors who are probably amongst the UKs top 5 . If the UKs most experienced can't agree, what chance have the rest of us of understanding. Some are saying this should not be aired on this forum and should be resolved behind closed doors. I think this could be the perfect time and place to discuss it and the other underlying issues that seem to be there.
Excuse me if I have got this all wrong.

""how about getting a couple of chavs from the local shopping centre and offer to pay them double their giro so smack the pony outta each other wearing 4oz gloves (to ensure a bitta blood)...and sell tickets for £30-a-pop...hey-ho, there ya go!""

Mr Ishis wet dream

Good post Raymond !

Theres lots of points I'd like to address above:

1) MMA shows are packed because there are only a hanful of big shows a year. MT fans are spoiled for choice as there is a quality show almost every week. I bet a lot more money is spent by MT fans in total buying tickets each year than MMA its just diluted by the number of shows.

2) MT scoring isnt so difficult to understand. You do score the first two rounds its just that usually in a well matched fight the fighters are fresh and close in ability so neither will take too many risks and therefore the rounds are more often than not even. A lot of the reason for drawn first rounds is not the judging but the fighters tactics. If a fighter totally dominates the first round or scores a knock-down he/she will win it.
The early rounds are used by the fighter to find and expose weaknesses and to "soften up" the opponent so that they can capitalise later on.
If you win more rounds you win the fight. Full stop.
But as there are only 5 rounds to decide the fight, if the first two rounds are close, the fight is decided on the last 3.

3) Boxing scoring is no easier and there is just as much controversy about big fights in boxing when they are close. Most fights in MT or Boxing are pretty clear whether you are a purist or Joe Public.

Mr Raymond Bennett perfect!!! you got it. shame my other post was removed as it had some good explanations on it.

"2) MT scoring isn’t so difficult to understand"

So why is it that we constantly have these discussions?

I think people want to believe it's easy when all the evidence goes against that. We have VERY established people in the game disagreeing on a regular basis and Joe Public completely perplexed.

I thought I understood it and I still get suprised by decisions occasionally. And believe it or not I've really tried:) You’re always learning I suppose. Though I think my point stands that Joe Public doesn’t have the patience or the willing to learn.

Richard
Fair point regarding MMA but I am talking about media exposure not individual show attendance although you would think that if a big show like the WBC event was on people would save their money and come to that. It didnt happen last time. However Cage Rage have had to move out of that venue and into a bigger one because it has been banged out.
The smaller MMA and MT shows can be both well attended or badly attended. Both suffer sometimes. But where it really counts (in an exposure sense) is beyond that. MT is still a long way behind.
That said it has to be noted that recent events have been on a much grander scale in MT and there have been some great shows. But I think I said the same in late 80's when the picketts lock events etc took place. The lack of consistency wasted that previous opportunity.

The judging issue could rage on indefinately so who is going to take the bull by the horns and settle it - and who is going to support the actions of that person or persons.
Of all the MT shows that grace our TV screens not one has ever outlined the scoring criteria for the paying public.
MMA and K1 have surpassed MT because the scoring is simplified.

"1) MMA shows are packed because there are only a hanful of big shows a year. MT fans are spoiled for choice as there is a quality show almost every week. I bet a lot more money is spent by MT fans in total buying tickets each year than MMA its just diluted by the number of shows."

Some of Joe Public will recognise the names Gracie, Ortiz, Liddell...how many would recognise Buakaw or Jomhod? Can there be so many MT shows in UK every year and thus be guaranteed as "quality"..fewer shows might mean bigger venues?I think in Holland and France there are fewer shows but bigger.Not saying bigger is better of course.

Please don't jump on me,I am just hypothesizing!

Tony is a quality judge and a great referee i have no doubts his scoring is correct. Instead of arsing about arguing over decisions surely we should be thinking how to be better for next time round.

Bulldog writes: The judging issue could rage on indefinately so who is going to take the bull by the horns and settle it?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I doubt there is any one person who can settle this with some kind of sucsinct bottom-line comment, as we have the highest ranking judges and referee's in the UK already involved in these matches and the ensuing discussion.

As I stated earlier:
"MuayThai is about being respectful and humble.
There are NO great fighters, just great trainers (and their trainers before them) who can bring the best out in individuals. Whats done is done, accept&move on, look forward, not back...but learn from the experience so you know how to deal with those individuals in the future. You cant change the past.
Keep it positive."

The fight game is a path, and you have to accept the twists and turns, the pot holes, the uphill struggles and enjoy the views when you reach the peaks...but when you are at a low, you have to continue until reaching that next peak, which I am sure all of us will attain in our own way.

No posts have been removed from this thread Alan

Doesnt really matter how many come to shows in England, that is a drop in the ocean compared to the worldwide media exposure that is required. Its not bums on seats anymore, its couch potatoes watching it on telly that bring the money in, and for that to work it has got to be entertaining and understandable to the uninitiated, simple as.

Can I just ask why the first two rounds are suddendly counted now, when on plenty of other threads it is stated they are not. This is another example of the problems MT finds itself in, it may as well be two seperate sports.

it doesnt help when on certain shows you get commentary from people that dont understand the rules and scoring in the correct way. this is why the public watching get the wrong idea of muay thai and how it is scored.muay thai is definateley not he who hits hardest wins, or he who has the higher work rate wins which is what the majority of people look for, this is why i think muay thai is a fair way behind on the tv side of things, you get one lot of rules from the commentators and then different when you read into it properly. im not saying im perfect or i know all about muay thai, but i believe i have a decent amount of understanding on what scores and what does not and to see and decide who i think would have won a bout due to the correct use of scoring criteria. i believe alot more needs to be done so that everyone at least are on the same wavelength instead of all the petty arguments about it over the ax forum, yes its good to have debates and to have your own opinion but if muay thai is a sport you decide to participate in then get to it and learn the correct scoring and rules, it will help your fighters out in the long run. Tony has done alot of work with trying to help various gyms and people all over the country with various seminars on judging, im sure many times like this one it seems pointless to the fact that people are still questioning the scoring criteria. i may be biased and will hold my hand up for criticism here but i would say that tony would be the number 1 official in this country at the present time.
and i too believe liam is a judge who when judging is straight down the line in his decisions.

They are always counted, its just that there is less relevance on these rounds as both guys are fresh, and a sudden onslaught in these rounds will normally be "weathered-out" and still have enough composure to settle the round with a strong reply...

....notice we are talking about the effect and impact this has on the opponents general composure, balance and also the telling mental state (distress signals from facial expressions/eyes etc)...however if one of the blows in the onslaught is a concussive blow, and the effect is that the guy stumbles all over the place, unable to keep his balance, this will obviously score the round in his favour.

phil: if you can make it down to bad co we can have a chat about it. :)

Richard i am not pissed off at anything you have done. I am glad to say that any problems our camps had have been settled it seems.Both parties are keeping each others opinions about one another to themselves. I have never had a prob with you as you know only a few unjustified remarks that are now water under the bridge but unfortunately in exposing the creator of the dreadful global brethren ie; Liam Robinson it came out in the wash that one of the users besides Sandy Holt was in fact one of your guys! This was a dissapointment as I always thought they said what they felt and always put their name to the comment. Anyway, the issue now is judging and the apparent discrepancies of scoring between the judges and the relevance of the 'local lad' winning.

On another note that was the best show in the uk so far imo. to have Trainor, Wakeling, Pachquette and Keddle fighting 4 thais and to inc a wmc world title and have two legends and one former no1 ranked .Dan green really pulled it out of the bag just a shame this cloud hangs over that I hope can be resolved.

I personally would like the tape reviewed and that title awarded the right way. A draw is totally unsatisfactory! especially when the thai accepted defeat and one judge gave it to Kieran. It doesnt instill much confidence in me to get sponsorship for this to happen again. You must understand that the only way shows like this happen is by gyms like mine selling the tickets and getting big sponsers in!!! wmc shows cannot be afforded in the uk any other way. My anger comes from the fact that I killed myself on behalf of Dan Green selling tickets and selling vip boxes and getting as much as I could done to make that show happen. Now the dissapointment of that result has set in and I am not happy about it. I have every right to feel that way and am upset by the 'education' comment as pointed out earlier. it a liberty of the highest oreder to many mnay decorated instructors. I will accept a difference of opinion regarding the result but totally reject the 'education' comment.

im sick of this total pish on this site when i first started muay thai i was told to look at this site i could get loads of help and info on here but to be honest and i really really dont give a fuck what any of you think this site is used as a wepon this was a great thread about probably one of the best shows we will ever c in the uk and as soon as the show is over lets all fall out over juging it . judges were taking sides or what ever there cant be one person who has had a fight and thought ive not took this and then did SURPRISE it will hapen sooner or later get a fucking grip if it wasent you oin the ring then what does it matter please stop this stupid childish arguing but it doesent matter caus i wont ever post on this shite again cheers

Mr Smith
So now you say the first 2 rounds do count? Can Tony Myres or Liam Robinson confirm this?
So if a fighters starts off aggressivly and wins the first round strongly, can he get a 10- 9 for the first round?
Please confirm.

Wainey writes.....

'it doesnt help when on certain shows you get commentary from people that dont understand the rules and scoring in the correct way. this is why the public watching get the wrong idea of muay thai and how it is scored.muay thai is definateley not he who hits hardest wins, or he who has the higher work rate wins which is what the majority of people look for, this is why i think muay thai is a fair way behind on the tv side of things,

This is exactly what we are talking about!! the majority of people!! if you expect the sport to grow then making it acceptable in a country which is not dicated by stadium gambling it what is needed. This business of drawn rounds is nonsense and ridicules the entire marquis of queensberry scoring system.To then say that in the event of a close fight the thai should win brings the whole system into disrepute. To become a spectator sport we should judge it accordingly and remember you are judging a fight not a fencing match!!! fighting is not just about art but about grit, power, determination, spirit the list goes on. The point I was making was that even with the current scoring system in place it still gave Kieran a win all day long! a draw was a joke! especially for a world title! Kieran of all the brits knows the thai system very well and he did plenty to ensure a victory not a draw.

Wainey writes:
"yes its good to have debates and to have your own opinion but if muay thai is a sport you decide to participate in then get to it and learn the correct scoring and rules, it will help your fighters out in the long run. Tony has done alot of work with trying to help various gyms and people all over the country with various seminars on judging, im sure many times like this one it seems pointless to the fact that people are still questioning the scoring criteria."
Wainey, you make it sound like Tony Myers is the only authority on Muay Thai rules in the country.

Matt, under the thai scoring system unless there is a big marked difference in the first round the round is scored even but with an eye on the person that did more and making them a winner in the next round should there work rate prevail. A terrible system in my mind!! in my mind if you think that a person did more or scored more in that round then they should win it. That is the whole idea of the ten point MUST system!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree with the rest of the system but i do not agree with the first round drawing scenario.

if the first round is 10-10 dont some judges put a star against the side ov the stronger fighter incase its a close fight and it goes to points.or have i dreamt this!!

Alan just answerd that..

Fair comment Noi. I probably should have asked what the possibility was of any of these authority figures actually meeting in an attempt to resolve the situation.
This thread has become a debate on opinions from all different standpoints. Who out of all of you is prepared to sit around a table to try to clarify and formulate a plan for moving forward.
I accept that many of you have agreed to meet or speak with individuals but there are still key people who should be talking to other key people.
Who is willing to do it? It's an issue that has to be solved.

I accept that Tony Myers feels that he has been doing just this for a good while and it's true that he has appeared all over the country with his judging courses. However there are those that do not agree with him for various reasons. Tony seems willing to discuss his standpoint with anyone who wants to. So meet him and discuss it - all of you who have something to say. That of course includes those who are supportive of his views also.

meeting rooms at Trowell service on M1 for a round the table-face to face meet?
(half way round the country for everyone?)

To discuss what exactly?

...a judging master class so we are all singing from the same hymn sheet?

agree some sort of UK definition of scoring criteria, then document it under a UK Judging Commitee. Sanctioned by WMC, IFMA, WPMF, WMF, SIMTA, ITKBA etc etc etc....

apologies to ax team I found the post!!! I posted last night and it wasnt accepted for some reason so its on now!! apologies for my lack of faith there. This is a valuable argument that is worth having on here and could get to the route of many problems

apologies to ax team I found the post!!! I posted last night and it wasnt accepted for some reason so its on now!! apologies for my lack of faith there. This is a valuable argument that is worth having on here and could get to the route of many problems

I also think that when the times comes for this meeting it should be about rules and regs inc scoring that we are all happy about not just one point of view. Many of us would like our views taken into consideration as we are not in need of any education.

I also think that when the times comes for this meeting it should be about rules and regs inc scoring that we are all happy about not just one point of view. Many of us would like our views taken into consideration as we are not in need of any education.

because i am not a fighter , just a spectator i am finding this thread both funny and educating. I agree with alan that the first two rounds should be scored better , i find it does my head in sometimes and when people who are with me ask me why its so slow i say "the first two rounds dont really score " as thats what i have interpreted from reading posts like this. I am joe public and havent a clue how you lot score , a knock out and claret all over is normally a good sign for me . What i cant get my head round is how can instructors be teaching there students one way and another gym getting taught another way . All that means is it will never grow as people want it. Such a shame really as i like a good show ,and i have noticed over the years that its growing at a fast rate.People from all over the world have read this , but sometimes bad publicity is good publicity . Will some one reply to these questions please as i dont know.

1 Are the rules on the net anywhere ?
2 do sanctioning bodies have different rules ?
3 Will this be the same type of educating thread after the next big show ?

Noi - to discuss if there is a way forward or not!
If the various factions are totally set in their viewpoint or are willing to bend.
To find out if minds can meet or there is to be a total division between the schools of thought ending in traditionally judged Muay Thai and European full rules judging (for want of a better phrase).

Did'nt Nigel Howlett try to form a board of control?
This is what a board of control is for, sorting this mess out.

would just like to clarify for Alan and Mr Smith that i did have the global password etc sent to me through email (not from Liam R to clear that up)but have never and would not have posted under it. Alan you no full well that if i have something to say wheter it be to yourself or anyone else i openly come on here and say it as MYSELF. The way this is going we are never going to have a full undestanding of the scoring system, i think i now how to judge Muay Thai, Tony, Liam R, Dean James, Mr Smith and even Liam H with him spending so much time in Thailand have all given me there views on it and they have all been along the same lines so i follow those and believe that i no what im talking about. However it seems that no matter what you think you no there is always something else popping up into the equation now. I think the idea of us all meeting up to sit in on the same course to get the full understanding of just how Muay Thai is scored wheter it is in Thailand or the UK, the only problem is that will NEVER happen. when and how are we gunna get all the people who would need to be there, there at the same time same place?? it is near on impossible dont you think. The other way arpund it is to have regul;ar judging courses going on, im sure Tony will no how to arange this? and if there is anyone out there who is not happy with Tony doing these courses who else could/would people trust. I myself have been to Tony's judging courses and found it extremley informative and i learnt a lot from it. One thing is for sure for Muay Thai's sake this needs to be sorted once and for all. On another note i totaly agree with Dazza's earlier comment, we are English but we take part, train and compete in THAI BOXING, ie it is from THAILAND, it is there sport, they gave this wonderfull sport to us, so how the hell do we have the cheek to even think about changing the rules to suit an ENGLISH audience??? that is rubbish, we fight Muay Thai so the fight should be scored as it is in Thailand no matter where in the world the fight is, other wise we are just showing a blatent disrespect to the sport and to the Thai's themselve's.

My first post above in this thread mentioned these annual calls for meetings and here we go again.

I think most people at the top end of the sport would honestly say they are happy with what they have got e.g. a successful gym, paying punters, generally a good business but they, at this moment, will have it in their mind to genuinely have a meeting. Like anything, however, in a weeks times when this has blown over and the thread has moved down the main forum page, the same people will be back to doing what they do normally and a meeting will be far from their thoughts. This is human nature, its just how it is.

The closest thing to a meeting, and probably best thing to do now, would be to publically discuss on here, in a civil manner, the way forward. This would show other worldwide forum readers of any MT standing that UK MT can be unified in its aim and would go some way to redeeming the negative factors shown in some posts above. The biggest positive is that there would be some dialogue on an issue that affects ALL gyms in this country and hopefully there will be plenty of ideas generated to find a workable solution. Just remember the least likely source can often proffer a simplistic idea that can make the world of difference, both in a business and, in this case, a sporting scenario.

Plus if you all met at Trowell it would be like the bad days of football hooliganism in the 80`s, you`d all end up on a national news story about an arranged battling meet! Be like a scene from Shameless :)

P.S. Noi, the only reason you want me to visit Bad Co is so you can use me as a working example/human punchbag of how different techniques score! You must think I was born yesterday! :)

Na phil he fancy's ya, if you do come down mate id watch ya backside when that fake tanned piece of gayness is around, you never no what will happen.

and I suppose that cos we created football, rugby and cricket we should control all the rules and regs??? what about organisations like fifa! the sport belongs to the rest of the world not thailand alone. I accept it in thailand cos of the system with gambling. Even the thais fight in systems with modified rules like superleague and k1 and its all about money not rules! Anyway thats another argument cos Kieran won that fight and should have had the title even under the current thailand system.

Mr Smith, Tony Myres, Liam Robinson
can a fighter win the first round if he uses effective Muay thai techniuqes and totaly dominates the first round?
Please clarify.

Is dave Jackson correct that all techniques score equally?

Silverfox writes
'would you rather have a venue with about 500 proper muay thai enthusiasts who understand and appreciate the subleties and techniques or have 10,000 joe publics in a massive arena who know bugger all and just want to see some blood?'
If this happened would that mean that the fighters would get paid more, be able to train and fight full time and improve the quality of real muay thai in the Uk? Is that a bad thing???

http://www.muaythaionline.org/disciplines/judgeintroduction.html

I hope it helps

Interesting point Matt about the numbers watching the sport ... i for 1 am sickened at the amount this games top athletes get in way of financial reward .... time for the rant now .... when a f000king poncey over paid poofball player get thousands per week for kicking a bag of wind about on a big grass field and wont let people kick him wots all that about ... the fact of this matter is we need numbers and bums on seats to pay fighters that make the shows happen in the first place ...

Also dont know if meeting at Trowell services would be a good thing (brings back to many memories that are better left dead and buried) ;-)

a fighter if completeley dominting the first round with good techniques where his/her opponent does not much in the way of returning techniques and shows clear signs of the opponents techniques taking affect would take the first round 10:9. although it is not that common that this happens but it can be done.

How do you think it would be scored if they won the round, without dominating?

I think the Muay Thai scoring system is very logical and makes a lot of sense. You just have to remember that you are judging a FIGHT. Who has won the fight? Not round by round adding up the scores but who is the winner at the end.

If one fighter nicks a couple of rounds by one or two techniques but the other wins one round by knocking the other all over the ring, the maths says that the weaker fighetr would win as they have more rounds. But how can you say you have beaten someone in a fight when they beat you all over for a round and you didnt do the same to them? (I'm NOT referring to any of the fights last week by the way just hypothetical).

The early rounds are often scored even because even if one fighter slightly pulls ahead by landing a few shots, these shots are unlikely to have a great effect as both fighters are fresh. But - the jugdge will bear in mind that the fighter is starting to look like they are going to win. If one fighter totally dominates the other, of course they will win the round. But this doesnt happen very often. If the round is close it is likely to be scored a draw as it has not had sufficient bearing on he outcome of the fight.

I think it is a mistake to talk in terms of taking the early rounds easy. You are looking to win every round but you are fighting with your mind and not your body more in the early rounds - looking for weaknesses and trying to expose them. If you take the rounds easy you are going to lose! But even scoring techniues are unlikely to have an efect on a fresh fighter - and it is EFFECT that we are looking for. A clean kick across the body might not have an effect in round 1 but probably will in round 4 when the fighter is more tired.

When the early rounds are close like this, more emphasis will be given to the later rounds but if every round is close, the judge may take into acoount the slight advantage to the one fighter in the early rounds and award the fight accordingly. If neither fighter has had any significant effect on the other through the fight it will be a draw.

This is the Thai way of scoring. Its a fight not a paper excercise. I understand people saying that this is too difficult for people to understand (although I think its pretty logical) and should be changed. The western boxing way of scoring usually relies on more rounds and takes the maths into account. The Thai way of scoring looks at who has won the overall fight. If there were no rounds and no referee who would have won?

BUT - people go on about fighting FULL THAI RULES, but then want to change the rules????? Its either Thai rules or its not.

How can we bring over 4 top Thais and say we have beaten them at their own game when we have changed the rules to our own interpretation?????

If we want to change the rules and the scoring criteria to suit ourselves or because we think the sport will grow better, dont bringThais over as we are fighting different sports, or at least tell them waht the judges are looking for before they come so they can decide whether to accept the rules or not.

I am not referring to any of the fights specifically in this post but I will say again that I feel that all the decisions were right under Muay Thai criteria. If we are saying that the criteria should be changed thats one thing but if we are saying the criteria have been applied wrongly, thats another.

I am also very disappointed at the underlying criticism of Tony Myers who does everything for the love of our sport and has had a lot more experience than anyone in this country direct from the top officials in Thailand. I accept that certain people might be offended at the suggestion that we all need "educating" but I have no problem with this as I am learning all the time and still have a lot to learn, and greatly respect the superior knowledge that Tony has.

Apologies for the ridiculously long post - you dont have to read it if you dont want to!

At work we have a calendar with all kindsa "management talk" on there....March's statement, was a quote from the Dalai Lama:

"when we stop learning, we stop developing."

I have been on a few of Tonys courses and I have found something new on each course, something that i overlooked last time, or something which took a little longer to sink in...

Fact is, we are all a way behind the standard of top stadium judges, so no matter how much we "think" we know, theres always a new angle to appreciate.

LOL "apologies for the ridiculously long post - you don't have to read it if you don't want to", at the end of the ridicuously long post, after you have read it.

Fair points though Richard in some respects. However, confusion reigns because it seems that our interpretation of "proper MT rules" seems to change, depending on who you talk to. The first two rounds debate is a clear example of that.

There can be no denying Tony Myers unfaultered passion for legitimate authentic scoring, and as such he should not be criticised at all for his beliefs. His claims that judging the Thai way is totally consistant in most Thai stadiums are, I am sure 100% correct, although once again we can go back to the betting environment that Mr Keddle mentions. I don't mean that in a corrupt way, just that it perhaps sets the pattern for a contest and makes earlier rounds less relevent.

From a progressive point of view, the sport will not move forward quickly enough under these conditions.
I remain impartial as to the rights and wrongs as I believe you are correct when you say that we can't claim to beat the Thais at their own game if we are not going to play it their way. Fair comment.
Also there is nothing more enjoyable than an authentic contest for the likes of us on here.
But if you are one of the 10,000 mentioned earlier who are just coming for a good fight, it will be confusing, even with education. If that was not the case we would not be arguing on this thread.

For exposure, growth, better purses etc, we have to appeal to the masses and in a way that is exactly what Super league and K1 have done. People can knock those styles all they like but the simplified versions have overtaken the traditional.
It does not mean that we have to abandon authentic Muay Thai, we just have to accept what is smacking us right in the face and then find a way to move forward.

So someone can be constantly jabbing and teeping away perfectly at an opponent for 2 mins and 50 secs of a round, techniques that score but have no real effect, and then for the last 10 seconds he takes a big punch to the jaw and a big kick to the body, the only shots the opponent has landed, and reels away due to the effect. Would this person then lose the round due to the effect factor? Surely the sport should be as much about the art as much as brute force? The combined scoring techniques against a couple of haymakers?

The rules of MT and how it is scored isn't open for debate, they are a fact. The only thing that is open for debate might be the interpritation of the fight by the judge/s.
Tony Myres is generally acknowledged by everyone as an authority when it comes to judging here in the uk. When i read arguments about how he reads a MT fight it appears to me the problem still is understanding MT. Trainers should be guiding and educating their fighters how to win fights within the set criteria of MT if we are all going to continue progressing fighting MT properly.

Big congrats on putting on such a show Dan, and it sounds like our fighters put on a great performance. Sorry i couldn't be there......

Phil - If you were in a fight with someone would you try to beat them by using nothing but teeps and jabs? If you do that how can you be deemed to have won the fight? The one big punch and kick might not be enought to win the round and you can expect to win a fight doing so little. Its a FIGHT.

Carl - "For exposure, growth, better purses etc, we have to appeal to the masses and in a way that is exactly what Super league and K1 have done. People can knock those styles all they like but the simplified versions have overtaken the traditional."

Phil - If you were in a fight with someone would you try to beat them by using nothing but teeps and jabs? If you do that how can you be deemed to have won the fight? The one big punch and kick might not be enought to win the round and you can expect to win a fight doing so little. Its a FIGHT.

Carl - "For exposure, growth, better purses etc, we have to appeal to the masses and in a way that is exactly what Super league and K1 have done. People can knock those styles all they like but the simplified versions have overtaken the traditional."

Phil - If you were in a fight with someone would you try to beat them by using nothing but teeps and jabs? If you do that how can you be deemed to have won the fight? The one big punch and kick might not be enought to win the round and you can expect to win a fight doing so little. Its a FIGHT.

Carl - "For exposure, growth, better purses etc, we have to appeal to the masses and in a way that is exactly what Super league and K1 have done. People can knock those styles all they like but the simplified versions have overtaken the traditional."

Phil - If you were in a fight with someone would you try to beat them by using nothing but teeps and jabs? If you do that how can you be deemed to have won the fight? The one big punch and kick might not be enought to win the round and you can expect to win a fight doing so little. Its a FIGHT.

Carl - "For exposure, growth, better purses etc, we have to appeal to the masses and in a way that is exactly what Super league and K1 have done. People can knock those styles all they like but the simplified versions have overtaken the traditional."

Phil - If you were in a fight with someone would you try to beat them by using nothing but teeps and jabs? If you do that how can you be deemed to have won the fight? The one big punch and kick might not be enought to win the round and you can expect to win a fight doing so little. Its a FIGHT.

Carl - "For exposure, growth, better purses etc, we have to appeal to the masses and in a way that is exactly what Super league and K1 have done. People can knock those styles all they like but the simplified versions have overtaken the traditional."

Phil - If you were in a fight with someone would you try to beat them by using nothing but teeps and jabs? If you do that how can you be deemed to have won the fight? The one big punch and kick might not be enought to win the round and you can expect to win a fight doing so little. Its a FIGHT.

Carl - "For exposure, growth, better purses etc, we have to appeal to the masses and in a way that is exactly what Super league and K1 have done. People can knock those styles all they like but the simplified versions have overtaken the traditional."
K-1 is massive in Japan and has exported to one or 2 countries with all the money behind it but is not massive here (the few K-1 shows we have had did well but were by no means massive) or anywhere else really. Where it is big its because its an exported product and the only one of the year. Superleague did well because it had money behind it but where is it now?

The Dutch have massive shows usually with a mix of MT and MMA but apart from that where is the massive difference that everyone is talking about?
In France they have very big shops that are purely MT and well as other styles.
In Thailand they have shows where there are a lot more tahn 10,000 regularly.

I dont agree that its the rules that makes different styles more or less popular. Some sports are more organised and established (boxing for example) but certailny in the UK MT is by far a bigger spectator sport than K-1 or superleague its just not so well organised and doesnt have the money behind it. I have been saying for years that the quality needs to improve before it really takes off. This is happening now and I really dont think we need to change the rules, just explain them to everyone a bit better.

Sorry - "The one big punch and kick might not be enought to win the round and you CAN'T expect to win a fight doing so little. Its a FIGHT."

It's interesting that were so keen to follow the scoring that is so heavily influenced by gamblers.

These days it's only the gamblers who attend the stadiums and a large part of the TV crowd is gamblers. In the past much of the audience just came to watch the fights. There was more striking, less clinching, boxers were heavier.

Many Thais feel that the level of the sport is not as good as it used and that gambling has had a negative effect.

Sorry about the multiple posts! No idea what happened.

Although denied by many, there are infact two scoring systems for Muaythai.

Are you scoring ‘Sport’ Muaythai or ‘Stadium-style’ Muaythai?


Sport Muaythai:
-------------------
This is where the fighters are competing primarily for "honour".

Both fighters wish to win the contest outright. Each second of each round is important, each round in itself is important, as too is the final result - hence why the results from this weekend are so important!

An example of this, Dekkers vs Coban.

In two meetings there were 1st round K.O.’s. ( one apiece ) Neither fighter began the contest with the mindset that the first round would be an automatic 10-10.

Neither fighter went into the contest thinking that they only needed to apply pressure towards the end of the rounds and only in the rounds later in the contest in order to score more highly.


Both fought for individual and national honour and respect, looking to win each round, and looking to win the contest.

The rules for the Sport ( sport muaythai ) can be checked with the Muaythai Institute of Thailand, and indeed many other places.

The MT Institute states that each round is scored separately!

Also too, that there is ‘NO’ consideration taken into effect from other rounds as each round is scored individually.

In fact the MT institute state that rounds are not scored with a * Star .Dot or anything else except for clear numbers 10 or 9 or 8 or 7.

The Muaythai Institute also states that the winner of the most rounds ( 3 rounds from a five round contest ) is the winner.

If a fighter wins 3 rounds of a contest 10 – 9 by technique, yet takes a lot of punishment in round 4 and round 5. The winner of the 3 rounds wins the contest. If the losing fighter only scored 10 – 9 for each round that he won whilst delivering a lot of punishment, then he did not do enough as he needed scores of 10-8 or 10-7. Obviously he should have worked harder in the earlier rounds, or was stopped from being able to.

Wether the 3 rounds were close, and only just edged by the winner of the three rounds, makes no difference, should the score read

10-9
10-9
10-9
9-10
9-10

IF you are only going to find the decision for a winner from a contest by way of who was on top at the end of the contest, then why judge any rounds at all. You would just have one single score made at the end of the bout.



Stadium Style Muaythai
----------------------

This is where the fighters are competing with the aim of "earning as much money as possible from a fight career".

In many instances, it is better to let the first round play out in order to enhance their potential earnings from the gambling at ringside.

Likewise, should a fighter be trailing, he will concede defeat to his opponent going into the final round by not working as hard. The reason, why risk picking up injuries that could stop him from competing ( working – this is his livelihood ) the following week.

Also too, it maybe in his interests not to win a contest as it could earn him more money in the long run. Many fighters in the stadium will face each other several times anyway in a 200+ fight career.

None of the aforementioned come into play when competing for honour ( especially in the Thailand vs Holland – Coban vs Dekkers bouts ).


In the stadiums ( Stadium-Style ) not scoring opening rounds, later rounds weighted so that a winner of only 2 from 5 rounds (should they be rounds 4+5 that were won) selects the result of a contest etc… may work perfectly.

Applying the Stadium-Style scoring, when the fighters are competing in Sport Muaythai (for their honour and respect, as was the instances with the English fighters at the weekend ) is what is causing the problems.

Are the audiences at the shows there for the gambling, or wishing to spectate a sport?

Judging needs to reflect what type of MT is in play.

Richard
Agreed but the Dutch, French etc are mainly scoring in a Western way - the one that we have been debating.
Thailand have 10,000 plus gates. Of course they do. It's part of their culture. We get that at some lower league football matches (like Leeds:) )

The Dutch are mixing the shows, which sort of supports what I am trying to say (I think).
Yes Money has been put into Super League and K1 to make them succesful. So why is that? Why were new forms created instead of bringing forward the already established form and ploughing money into that?

I agree that K1 has not really taken off in this country but throughout this debate my points have not referred to the domestic scene (generally), they have been directed at an overall picture taking in the western hemisphere which is the market place that Muay Thai still seeks acceptance from.

Like I said right at the beginning, I'm not here to fall on either side of the debate. I enjoy good MT, Thai based or European influenced.
I respect Tony Myers for his viewpoint and dedication. I agree that it is wrong to play with the rules and still call it Muay Thai.
At any given event, I still don't know how to send my fighters out because I don't know what the judging criteria will be at that event, but thats another issue.
I am fully aware of the success that Bad Co. etc have had in MT in recent years and aknowledge the likes of Liam etc fighting at a very high level on a regular basis. This didnt happen a few years ago and it is clear that some progress has been made

I'm just pointing out the glaring obviousness of every other major combat sport that is getting exposure, moving forward in a quicker fashion.
I 100% congratulate Dan Green on the event, it was a major step forward, but so was Picketts Lock at the time and MT has not capitalised on that in an effective enough way, although I agree that has moved forward at a snails pace (by comparison).

Ha de ha de ha Carl!

Mr Smith, I take on board what you are saying for a full fight but I meant over the first couple of rounds to enable someone to have two clear winning rounds. Sorry, I didnt make that clear in my original post.

Taken from the Muaythai rules & regulations of Lumpinee boxing stadium B.E. 2500
( Alterations & additional edition B.E. 2535 (1992) )
( All rights reserved )

POINTS GIVING

1. There are 5 points in a round. The best boxer will get full 5 points, and his opponent is reduced by 4 , 4, 3 , 3 accordingly, and not to give points as 4 or 4 .

2. In the draw round, he will get 5 points each.

3. The loser in the not clear round will get 4 points, the winner gets 5 points.

4. The loser in the clear round will get 4 points, the winner will get 5 points.

5. The loser that has clearly seen all the round, with least opposition, fallen down and scramble up again and is counted will get 3 points, the winner gets 5 points.

6. The loser who has done for through the round and is counted twice in one round will get 3 points, the winner gets 5 points.

7. The giving of points will be considered according to the following rules:
1. Any boxer uses Muaythai weapons (fist, kick, knee, and elbow) according to the rules, against his opponent more is the winner.
2. Any boxer use Muaythai weapons against his opponent severely, clearly, violently, badly injured at most important parts is the winner.

Taken from the WMC website :

-------------------------------------------------

Rules & Regulations of Muay Thai (Thai-Style Boxing)

-

Item 17: SCORING PRACTICE.

The standard scoring practice is as follows :


C. Method Of Scoring

1. The maximum score for each round is 10 points, the loser scoring either 9, 8 or 7.

2. A drawn round will be scored as 10 points for both boxers.

3. The winner and loser in an indecisive round, will score 10:9 respectively.

4. The winner and loser in a decisive round will score 10:8 respectively.

5. The winner and loser in an indecisive round with a single count, will score 10:8 respectively.

6. The winner and loser in a decisive round with a single count, will score 10:7 respectively.

7. The boxer scoring 2 counts against his opponent will score 10:7.

8. Any boxer who commits a foul will have points deducted from his score.

----------------------------------------

( Should be relevant for a WMC show!)

A question -How can a round be "indecisive" if someone is given an 8 count? Surely they have lost the round and that is that, i thought? If both fighters were to get an 8 count then that is indecisive. grateful if someone can explain.

eg: if fighter A dominates a round, but then fighter B lands a "lucky punch"

fighter A has dominated the round throwing constant attacks but not having the effect and suffering an 8-count from a lucky punch thrown by fighter B.

Got it...but maybe that should score 9-8 then, cos one lucky punch shouldn't hand B a "clear" round if fighter A has been more pro-active in his attacks?

but its a 10-point MUST system...and fighter B HAS scored a concussive blow.

"There are 5 points in a round. The best boxer will get full 5 points, and his opponent is reduce \ cede by 4?, 4, 3?, 3 accordingly, and not to give points as 4? or 4 1/3.
In the draw round, he will get 5 points each.
The loser in the not clear round will get 4? points, the winner gets 5 points.
The loser in the clear round will get 4 points, the winner will get 5 points.
The loser that has clearly seen all the round, with least opposition, fallen down and scramble up again and is counted will get 3? points, the winner gets 5 points.
The loser who has done for through the round and is counted twice in one round will get 3? points, the winner gets 5 points.
The giving of points will be considered according to the following rules:
Any boxer uses Muay Thai weapons (fist, Kick, Knee, elbow) according to the rules, against his opponent more is the winner.
Any boxer uses Muay Thai weapons against his opponent severely, clearly, violently, badly injured at most important parts is the winner."

The ? where it says 4?, 4, 3?, 3 is 1/2 (half) I think its just the English translation from Thai that doesnt show it properly. 5 points with 1/2 point increments is the same as 10 points with a full point increment.

Each round is just as important as the other and if you fight to win each round it doesnt matter how its scored. But experienced fighters will pace the fight differently in different rounds knowing that the opponent is likely to be more or less dangerous at different points of the fight. Its just that 9 times out of 10 early rounds will be closer so less likely to justify a full point difference. No judge should automatically score the first 2 rounds 10/10, it just that they often are.

no such thing as lucky punch noi hehehehehe

I agree with Niel .Stadium Muay Thai and sport Muay Thai are different . Los comments about gambling influencing the stadium fights is relevant.maximizing earnings and longivity of the fighters are valid points.

The rules are the rules (as stated above).

The judges did not score a BKK stadium fight. In David v Samkor The pace was set early and fast the cutting elbow (which warranted a 10.8 IMO)was caused in round two . This fight was a sport Muay Thai fight ,fought round bye round untill the last second of the final round.

If I had choosen to adopt a stadium stratergy for my fighter in the early rounds he would have surely lost .(oops.. sorry he did)

So on a global basis and Muay Thai is global I believe. Do we fight to Stadium critera or Sport critera both of which use the same scoring critera ?.

There is common ground as Richard said a fight is a fight and should be scored a
accordingly, Muay Thai as always should be scored on effect, fighting spirit etc.

So where does that leave us ? well Stadium fights are stadium fights learn to understand the stadiums if you wish to win there.As far as the rest of us who competing on a global front. fight each round, score each round under the guidlines of the Thai sport Authority .

As for the judging on the England v Thailand is no doubting the Three Judges knowledge and understanding of Muay Thai or there integrity .

I was concerned about Impartiality , and Political influences
(that reared there ugly head)

I sat close (as I was commentating ringside) to one well respected and knowledgable judge who expressed his admiration for the legendary Samkor , I feel the same way about Samkor however I am not judging the fight and would need to be (and precieved to be )neutral.

Directly opposite is a another very senior and experienced judge engaging in conversation not with a offical but a another (self proffessed fan of Samkor) through out the fight.

Staying in the same hotels travelling together etc or showing any impartiality
leads to precisely this questions of Bias.

Now my honest oponion is Craig is a very honourable man as is Tony I only differ with them on the interpretation of the same scoring critera .

I viewed the fight as a fight at the end of the fight the fighters knew who won.

This debate is healthy it has cleared the air Tony has done a great job on helping standardize Muay Thai judging in the UK . However maybe to much emphasis is given to the stadium judging (disreguarding early roumds) which differs to global sport Muay Thai .

I am sure other countries are experiencing similar issues or will in the near future.

It is not my intent to change the rules . The rules are laid down quite clearly . Most major international fights are not fought in the Bkk stadiums but around the globe free from external influences (gambling pressure) .

Crowds do need more educating in the finer points of Muay Thai ,however many train themselves and overall the crowds are far far more knowledgeable then say five years ago, Ram muays are greeted with appaulse .Samkor and Jomhod got standing ovations before the fight.

UK Muay Thai is on the up as I said before bickering is negative but healthy discussion is productive .IMO

Stadium Muay Thai & Sport Muay Thai!
Bill, you just nailed it IMHO.

Neil, spot on post - thats as clear as you like.

I accept what everyone is saying about 'simplifying' things but if we want to fight stdium ranked Thais we should fight them at their own game not our version of it.

I've given my view of how a fight should be scored and I don't think its that complicated or even different to those who are calling for change.

My last word on all this is that if we remove Ram Muay, music and change the scoring we just make our sport the same as all the others and lose what makes it unique and much of the drama and excirement.

Now that we are starting to improve the standard of our sport and fighters are getting better, lets give the general public the chance to see Muay Thai as it really is before we try to change it.

It hasn't taken off in the last few years as we want it tio because the quality hasn't been there. Its getting there now and we are headed in te right directiuon so lets no write it off untill its had chance!

I won't post on this again.

Mr Smith, no one is calling for the abolition of the Ram Muay or ritual music, this is what makes Muay Thai unique, and i have only promoted Muay Thai shows
for 20 years, no other styles. Nevertheless, I do feel that on Novice and C class bouts that fighters should seal the ring instead of doing 5 minute Ram Muays, and that Ram Muays should be for 5 round fights only, in my view, otherwise we have been at shows where at least 2 hours are spent on Ram Muays.Like I said the novice fighters could seal the ring to the Ritual music, and then the fights commence. I tried this for the first time on July 30th at my show in Southampton, and not one gym complained about this, and we sailed through 16 fights in 4 hours. Muay Thai is the ultimate stand up art in the world and is recognised the whole world over, evidence of this is shown by most MMA fighters studying Muay Thai as their stand up, and some of the best fighters in MMA are Thai Fighters, Melvin Manhoeff, Wanderlei Silva, Anderson Silva.
Neal Holden posted a superb post regarding the Stadium or sport style Muay Thai, and I think all of the questions that have been asked were answered right there. I believe that Dan Green's excellent show last week was a sports Muay Thai event, and very good it was too, with the Thais coming to fight, which is refreshing to see, as some thai's who come to this country seem to mess about and just want to get plenty of work while they are in the UK.
This has been a very enlightening debate and i don't think it has been negative at all, we are all allowed to voice our opinions, because we are passionate about the game. UK Thai boxing is in a fantastic position at the moment with World class fighters coming through at all weights, Steven Wakeling, Kieren Keddle, David Paquette, Liam Harrison, Richard Cadden, Michael showers, Andy Howson, Richard Fenwick, Peter Crooke, Kevin Harper, Dale White, Paaolo Da Silva, damien Trainor, Frankie Hudders,Michael Dicks, Julie Kitchen, Nicky Carter, Lisa Houghton Smith, Rachel Jones,Hilary Mack, Mellisa Ray, Rebecca Donnelly,Karen Ousey. by the way these fighters are in no particular order of importance, just to remind us all of what talent we have in this country, and they could give anyone a hard fight anywhere in the world, including Thailand.

I said I wouldn't post again but didn't mean it to sound negative and I very much respect the points of view put forward, I just don't want to be responsible for continuing the thread which although it started off with bickering and negativity has turned into something quite positive. Its just all been said now. I think I fisished my post a bit abruptly - sorry.

On a totally separate note I totally agree about the Ram Muay, Wai Kru only for 5 round fights but was talking about what gets shown on tv or as a full rules 'A' class fight. I am strongly against televising anything other than top class 5x3 fights otherwise the general public are given a very diluted idea of what Muay Thai is. I think its things like this - lack of quality that holds us back, not scoring and judging.

I said I wouldn't post again but didn't mean it to sound negative and I very much respect the points of view put forward, I just don't want to be responsible for continuing the thread which although it started off with bickering and negativity has turned into something quite positive. Its just all been said now. I think I fisished my post a bit abruptly - sorry.

On a totally separate note I totally agree about the Ram Muay, Wai Kru only for 5 round fights but was talking about what gets shown on tv or as a full rules 'A' class fight. I am strongly against televising anything other than top class 5x3 fights otherwise the general public are given a very diluted idea of what Muay Thai is. I think its things like this - lack of quality that holds us back, not scoring and judging.

Anyone have to hand the Sky Sports viewing figures for the WBC event held earlier in the year?

JD, if you are readin this, did you hear of any positive feedback as I take it you still work for Sky?

Good point on TV Mr Smith

how many thaiboxing clubs have websites?

why dont we get a copy of the rules on everyones website, to prompt this type of discussion, and the more ppl have to describe the rules to new students etc the better understanding they will attain.

just a thought.....

Richard makes an excellent point and one that I have been in favour of for years. Some of the TV coverage is piss poor with no idea of which bouts should be shown. They work obviously to time schedules and the content is obviously irrelevent. Many times we have seen undercard fights that are scrappy and not representative (as you would perhaps expect froma novice bout)whilst the meaningful contsets have been ignored.

By the way, for some reason I missed Neils post earlier on reference Sport Muay Thai and Stadium Muay Thai and gave Bill Judd the credit. I should have known better:) Neil good post!
Also I did not read Richards quote properly re- super league and how it has progressed which I apologiose for. However the fact remains that money was ploughed into the new concept rather than into MT at the time.

I think that, regardless of the differences in opinion this has become a positive thread and is heading in the right direction.

A good post also from the pearly king himself!

Richard makes an excellent point and one that I have been in favour of for years. Some of the TV coverage is piss poor with no idea of which bouts should be shown. They work obviously to time schedules and the content is obviously irrelevent. Many times we have seen undercard fights that are scrappy and not representative (as you would perhaps expect froma novice bout)whilst the meaningful contsets have been ignored.

By the way, for some reason I missed Neils post earlier on reference Sport Muay Thai and Stadium Muay Thai and gave Bill Judd the credit. I should have known better:) Neil good post!
Also I did not read Richards quote properly re- super league and how it has progressed which I apologiose for. However the fact remains that money was ploughed into the new concept rather than into MT at the time.

I think that, regardless of the differences in opinion this has become a positive thread and is heading in the right direction.

A good post also from the pearly king himself!

brilliant point Smithy, Night of Combat for example, as much as i love it, it really yanks my chain sometimes, espeicially when i stay up till 1.30-2.30 in the bastard morning just to watch a bunch of lads who i and most people unless from there gyms will never heard of (not meant as any sort of insult to any of you out there who may have been on there in a 3 round scrap it is just the truth im afraid.) 9 times outta 10 the fights are shocking to watch and it just shows our sport in the completly wrong light, The problem is the cost of getting your show on tv, it ridicoulous, unless you have some shit hot sponsors, which is one of the hardesy things to do from what ive been told by Richard etc. We need shows like the likes of this one that was on last weekend, the muay thai superfights show from last year, and just the main vent 5x3 full thai rules fights from master skens shows to be show on tv, and not at such a stupid time, but i have doubts that that will ever happen. Also agree with what Bill says about the 3x2 fights just sealing the ring, that is exatcly what we teach our fighters who are coming through, there is only really Myself, Liam, Jordan and Cadden(with his ten minute long one.) who do Ram Muay's from our gym at the mo, until the other fighters progress a bit more that is. (oh and Lisa, better mantion her cause she will moan otherwise, also Sally Braddon does too) at last this thread now seems to be going somewhere and we are starting to agree on somethings, i like it,lol.

Just set you're video then Andy mate and go to bed LOL.

I made this point on the MT marketing thread running concurrently with this one, professional production values are everything when trying to capture the television audience.

I would use Sky Sports Fight Night as a template. A two hour show with the top of the bill fight on first live, then followed by 3 or 4 of the pick of the undercard fights, still with 'names' fighting. The show is also interspersed with features on the fighters and expert analysis, but most importantly there is such quality in the production that you are not cringing when the sound is all over the place or there is an advert break mid way through a commentators sentence.

here here phil.

Good call. Good format, but unfortunately the likes of sky are still useing MT as a cheap space filler after peak time. They won't be spending money on it anytime soon which means the promoter who puts it together will have to deal with the whole "studio" and "gym" footage type scenario, which is a little costly and impractical. I did look into this when I was approached a few years ago to may be put together a regional "magazine" type show that showcased rising and established talent with features, interviews , training etc on a bi-weekly basis. The TV companies were reluctant to finance it in any way shape or form.

How do you think it would be scored if they won the round, without dominating?

in refernce to that question im sure it would go 10:10 with a dot or mark of some sort going to the side of the fighter who has edged the round in any way or if it is not clear then a straight 10:10 round hence draw.

referring to bill your post about the cut warranting a 10:8 score, did samkor go down? did he get a count? did david totally dominate that round from then on? i dont think a cut on its own will not warrant a 10:8 maybe a 10:9 only if the opponent seems to be affected by thie strike and has produced no effort in the way of recovering the round. (ps i was not at the show im just going on whats in the posts above so just trying to put a view across) ill be buying the dvd though when its out.

Hi Everyone
I am now an Axkickboxing member,many thanks to Brian Ritchie and Ax team
I hope my post will help to promote Muaythai further.At the moment Muaythai promotions are being promoted up and down the Country.We certainly have many good promoters,Instructors and fighters in United Kingdom.If we can work together unselfishly to promote Muaythai,I do believe the future of Muaythai is looking bright.I also believe that Muaythai in this Country should have a Governing body to organise and find a solution to solve any problems that may arise.We need to sort out Licences,Insurance,Ranking,Judging,Refereeing and Marketing etc.I know that we have tried many times to have meettings but not enough people seem to be able to make the time. In any Business,we do need to discuss,debate or to sort out problems to go forward in achieveing our Goals.
We can be proud of many good quality promoters,Instructors and fighters in this Country.May I congratulate Dan Green to put on such a quality show,certainly helping to find a Legend and Legends of Muaythai in this Country.Congratulation to Steve Wakeling and Mark Wakeling in gaining such a high achievement and winning the fight against Jomhod Kiatadisak-A LEGEND.As Sean Toomey mentioned before we have so many good fighters now and we can participate in any tournaments in the World with pride.We must change with time by learning from the past and developing the future.Many posts here are very constructive and positive,I hope we can use them to develop and help Muaythai in this Country.
All the best

Well said Master Sken and good luck with the show, im gutted i could not fight on this show, but there would be no chance i would be fit or make weight with been on holiday the week before the show, instead i will have to luck forward to the show in Feb and see what test you will have in store for me this time, all the best and see you at the show.

Well said Master Sken and good luck with the show, im gutted i could not fight on this show, but there would be no chance i would be fit or make weight with been on holiday the week before the show, instead i will have to luck forward to the show in Feb and see what test you will have in store for me this time, all the best and see you at the show.

Many thanks Andy,I definitely would like to have you on my show again next year.Big Big test for you Andy.Please see me at the weigh-in,I have a VIP ticket for you.

First time ive had a chance to look on ax since the show, i know Guy has already thanked them but just wanted to say cheers again to Brian and AndyBC for helping out in the corner, good to see you again Andy and ill see you next time you come up to Glasgow or the next show im down for.

Wainey
As far as I could see the cut DID have an effect on Samkor as, his legs went and the fight was stoped so that the DR could inspect it and his corner try to stop the bleeding.
maybe if the fight wasn't stopped and Samkor given a chance to recover, he might have gone down.
maybe you didn't mean it, but I read your ppost as quite agressive towards Bill. Maybe you should only pass comment on things that you have actually seen, not been told about!

Doesn't matter how positive this thread is becoming it won't achieve the goals that say Master Sken suggested. People do work better together now there is no doubting that but complete harmony is a long way off and won't be achieved from this thread.

Lot's of interesting post though and I think the fights on the nite have been scored Stadium Muay Thai rules and fought in the eyes of the spectators/coaches as sport Muay Thai. maybe a little insertion on each shows poster say judging criteria sport Muay Thai or Stadium Muay Thai would give people to adopt their tatics for that night's work.

It's no good turning up to a football match for 11 aside to find out your doing 5 a side.

Out of a matter of interest from two people who have felt hard done by in this what criteria did Alan Keddle & Bill Judd think they where being judged under on that night? And does it have any reflection on what they think now.

Back to the working together. I have always said I would go to any meeting anywhere and donate an equal share to the setting up of such a body if everyone else did the same and if that's what we want then that's what we will have to do.

So, where is at? I'm on my way!!LOL

Lets call a meeting to settle all this once and for all, judging, refereeing and to try to get an independent governing or overseeing body to monitor and arbitrate on all Thai Boxing matters. If I am not mistaken the Oceania Muay Thai governing body in Australia is overseen by John Cockburn, who is a Lawyer, and has no ties whatsoever, with any club or promoter, totally independent. Enough of the major players have come on here to voice their opinions, and a lot more are just assessing the situation and have not made a comment yet, surely we can all put our brains together and take a monentous step forward.

No doubt that the people are working more together now, I would like to see what we can achieve for Muaythai together.We will always have our differences,but we can compromise for the future of our Sport.I am agreed with Sean Toomey,we need someone has no ties whatsoever with any clubs or promoters and totally independent.Without a Governing body,this is why Muaythai as a Sport can not go forward as it should be.

Will do Master sken, i think i will bringing the lads to the weigh in anyway so i will see you then and have a chat with you about your next show, Thank you very much for the VIP ticket, much appreiciated. See you in a few weeks. hope everything is going well with the show and running smoothly looking like a really good show, good luck with it. see you soon.

Is it possible to get a full list of results from the show? I am wondering if barnhill fought Fenwick and ifso what was the result?

barnhill vs Fenwick didnt go ahead mate, shame, would have been a good fight.

Davy anytime mate, was happy to help out and you'll have to let me no where and when the rematch is, im sure next time when your not carrying an ijury into the fight and havent taken it on a week and a half's notice it will be a right fight. See you at Skens if your there to watch Jordan fight?

Matt, your right! when he got hit with that elbow he went! no doubts. An eight count should have been administered and in the absence of the ref seeing it that doesnt stop the judges giving it! it works the same the other way round in that the judges can choose to ignore a count given if they see fit Cos perhaps the ref cant the see full angle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWwnf1eeaIc
this link clearly shows a reversal of decision on a fight involving wmc? in 2005 (because mr. fox was involved) and angela parr who gets a draw and then has the result reversed. As stated earlier I have no problem with any officials, wmc, stephan or anybody else.They have as ever always helped me. I just want a fair hearing as I would expect from any world body! If jwp is reading then please drop me an email as I would like to appeal the result and would like to know how to do that.

I dont disagree that the fight was close and I see that two of the judges gave a draw but the third gave it to Kieran and the thai conceeded defeat. This doesnt mean that the other two judges were wrong just that following the procedure as used to appeal a decision and the fact that it was a world title i want to appeal it. Given the third judge result combined with the reaction of the thai himself it should have been a clear indicator.

Kieran is the 'local boy' and I would like the belt handed to its rightful owner to go with the rest of the collection.That belt means a lot as it is WMC. I then promise under contract to return the thai back for a rematch in the UK which I will pay for and sanction. I will of course be sending this to wmc for their perusal. I think the Thai community involved in this scenario should know. This isnt anything against Craig or Tony just that a draw is unsatisfactory. Should an appeal not exist then neither will any more financial support to these shows as I cannot allow this to happen again.MY SPONSER IS REFUSING ANYMORE HELP UNTIL A SATISFACTORY ENQUIRY IS MADE AND A CLEAR WINNER IS CHOSEN. Its bad for business and people havent stopped asking me what happened that day!! I need to give them a satisfactory answer and tell them that i have appealed it. Otherwise the chance of these people supporting again it thin to none. Shows like that cant happpen without sponsers and ticket sales. People need a satisfactory answer when they watch a world title fight.

I go on holiday on the 22nd Andy mate so i wont be able to make it down to Skens, Im gutted cos its the first Skens show ive missed for a while and id have loved to go down there with Jordan, im sure he ll do well as always and ill be helping him out as much as i can leading up to the fight.
It would be good if a rematch could be arranged at some point in the future but ive got a couple of things lined up first, just want to get a few fights in as that was my first one in nearly a year, when you fighting again?

Same thing happened years ago to Richard Smith. He fought Takashi Ono on home soil at the Leeds Townhall and IMO clearley won the fight, first round even 2nd to Richard 3rd a 10-8 round to Richard, dropped him with a beautiful body shot, Richard then trew everything he had trying to stop him for the rest of that round but Takashi just wouldnt go away, round 4 takashi tried to come back, but Richard managed to stay with him so an evenish round with maybe Richard just taking it, and Richard started strong in the 5th but with about 30 seconds or so to go got dropped with a wicked head kick (soz to remind you boss,lol)he took a count but was still able to get it together and hold on. Now eberyone in the building thought (knew) he had won the fight, but a similer thing happened, 1 judge gave it to Richard 1 to Takashi and the other a draw. Now i completley understand with you Alan that a draw is not a fair result in a World title fight, Espeicially when such a recognised body,ie WMC, WAKO,WBC, etc. I saw how upset and pissed off Richard was, we all where for him. I was just wondering though do you think this enquiry will help Alan?? Will they review the fight and can or would they change the decision? Only asking because ive never heard of this been done before and don't understand it fully. Will they not just have a rematch for the title again later in the year or could the WMC just watch the fight and turn around and say yes Kieran won or Wittaynoi won and award the belt accordingly??? Just sounds a bit weird that. What if the people who review the tape do see the fight completly differently to youreself Alan and most of the crowd on the night and they do decide that they feel Kieran actually lost the fight?. Just bringing these points up as i am interested as to what would happen thats all cause as i say i don't really understand what would happen. Anyone out there from the WMC that can clear this up?? I myself can not comment on the fight as i only watched the first 3 rounds, from what i saw if i was a judge it was even to the point i saw upto.

very good post andy and totally agree with you in many aspects. Glad that we can talk sensibly this way. The problem is that this has happened all to often and unless a stand is made it will continue. Appeals can be made if you go on that thraed that i posted on youtube. Appeals made by the same association! that wasnt my show as you know and i worked my balls off selling vip boxes, getting sponsorship and dan will tell you that even on the day I was running around collecting champagne, collecting trophies, selling tickets and persuading people to get the vip sponsor boxes to help finance the massive amount to pay the show. kierans and beckys fights cost much less than the others but i believed in the show and really wanted to see dave and steve do well also.

The problem is that my sponsers want an inquiry into this otherwise support for future shows wont happen!! That fight was close and there is no disputing that band tony and craig saw fit to give a draw which is fair enough but with the third judge giving to Kieran, the thai conceeding defeat and the fact that Kieran is the 'local lad' as was put earlier this should have been enough. A draw is nonsesnse in this case for a world title and my feeling is that the winner should have been Kieran. If we are to conceed defeat in the event of a close fight in Thailand then I am sure that they must conceed it here!!!


run outa time now gotta go so will continue tomorrow andy. cheers alan

I dont believe that there are 2 systems of scoring in Thailand. I do think that there are lots of different translations of the rules into English that conflict. But i think it is the translations that conflict rather than the rules.

My understanding of this comes from sitting with thais watching tapes and debating the descisions. My understanding of the rules today is completely different to what I understood 15 years ago. There has never been a time when I have been told.."Ah...but that was Stadium rules"

I believe that the the Stadium fights are so evenly matched that the first 2 rounds are often scored even purely because they are even. This is due to the fact that they are 2 fighters at the top of their game who are equally skilled, and are working out the opponents weaknesses before committing to attacks that may score against them.

If the promoters think one fighter is slightly stronger than the other or has an advantage they even make the stronger fighter make weight 1 or 2 pounds less in weight difference to ensure the fight is even.

The so called 'Sport Muay Thai' or Non Stadium fights are obviously at a lower level and therefore has fighters of different ability competing. It may be a top Thai against a westerner that doesnt have the experience that the Thai does and therefore the judges are able to make a distinct descision in the first two rounds and score them accordingly. Weight is never usually a major issue in these fights.

Eventually when the dominant fighters from these shows rise to the top of the pile they may someday fight at the stadiums and will probably draw the first 2 rounds against an equally schooled fighter.

It may even be a tournament with 2 Thais fighting but over 3 rounds for more money than they have ever seen, which may in itself could invoke recklessness and a change in strategy. The same fighter may choose to fight a different fight if it were 5 rounds.

True Alan, i can understand how you want to keep your sponsor happy, after all thats what brings money into the sport, just out of intrest (and if personal info ou dont need to tell me) Does Kieran have a job?? Just wondering cause i find it hard because i have a full time job, and teacch 3 classes at the gym in the week, Kids Monday, a class Tues evening and also Thurs morning, so when i have to start training hard for a fight i struggle to train as much as id like to,for i work 8-5 so i (try) to get up at 5 and go running 3 days a week, then its to work and i will meet Liam at the gym twice a week on my dinner hour and do a bit on the tread and a few light weights etc, then its straight to Badco after work where Richard will kill us on pads before the session then train the session so all in all im constantly fucked due to having to work. The reason ive waffled all this and asked about Kieran working is this, i was just wondering (and again no need to tell me if personal info, im just interested) does Kierans sponsor just come into play when he has a fight coming up, ie helping out towards the cost of his opponents etc or is he lucky enough to have a sponsor who helps him out as and when needed? I have heard of a few fighters who don't work and get paid by a sponsor to just train and fight full time thats all?? Id love to get me some of that,lol. Soz to waffle on just intersted, and no how important sponsors are in our sport.

I know Alan Keddle will jump straight down my throat here but I was at the show and the Keddle fight was boring!How can u have a winner when neither of the fighters break out of 2ndgear. If its about effect there can not have been a winner as neither fighter had any effect at all.If I was a sponsor I'd be more worried that I was paying out and it weren't entertaining.
How can u call yourself world champ when u aint tried 2 win in the ring?????
I started looking at Ax this year and notice that there 1 or 2 people who seem to cause trouble all the time if anyone don't agree with them or they don't get there own way.

And one or two have a lot to say but without a profile!
You may have a valid point but without a profile you could just be a ten year old winding it up for all anybody knows.

I think he's the guy who lives with his Aunt May and has mysterious arachnoid capabilities which help him catch thieves, just like flies

Peter parker to be fair enough winding up on this site has already been and done and i for one tend not to take much on board from people with out a profile .

valid points will always be discussed but and its a huge but WE all know who we are talking to and about Muaythai in this country is a very small knit community with most people knowing each other somewhere along the line .

i also think enough baiting has happened and it needs to stop IMHO.

Russ

this is blatent trolling bearing in mind this thread seems to heading in a useful direction and the discussion is fascinating. Peterparker might be in another country especially when you look at the time of the post and have no cares for UK Muay Thai.

Personally I think it would be pointless for me put up a profile as I have achieved nothing as a fighter or trainer and so my profile would add nothing. This is my real name however and I do have enjoy the sport and have opinions even if my opinions are not 'expert'.

Alan's post about his sponcer is quite alarming. The sponcer trying to influence the result of the fight is something that i haven't come across before, and to appear to do it by way of financially blackmailing the promoter? terrible.

I must say also that, in any fight, when the fight is very close, i believe a rematch is the answer if possible. In any close fight there will be debate about the result.
Appealing to have decisions overturned should be for fights where a clear injustice has occured imo.

I don't think Alan worded it like that - certainly blackmail wasn't mentioned.

Phil, I'm not sure of the viewing figures but from what I heard it done pretty well. I think the next show in September might be shown live but I could be wrong on that one. Either way I think Nash should be congratulated for getting these on, also for the fact that all the fight shown are of a very good standard unlike some of the dross shown on Night of Combat. Again no disrespect to the c class fighters that may have been shown, good luck to you but I just think these fight shouldn't be shown on TV. Would also be good if Night of Combat had spell check.

maybe you didn't mean it, but I read your ppost as quite agressive towards Bill. Maybe you should only pass comment on things that you have actually seen, not been told about!


at which point in my comment to bill do i sound aggressive?

I agree draws are silly in a world title IF one fighter is champ.. You have to beat the champ in MuayThai (as I see it) the belt isn't open like boxing). If it was a vaccant title I don't see why it can't be a draw...they happen, why should it not happen at that level?

If they don't happen at that level why should they happen at any level.

I agree they should be rare but a draw is a draw.

2 judges draw and one for red is a majority draw as I know it...?